WEBVTT 00:04:02.900 --> 00:04:05.120 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Officer and Central Judges of the Impeachment 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:05.460 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Court. 00:04:48.250 --> 00:04:50.510 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The Sergeant at Arms is directed to make a proclamation. 00:04:51.980 --> 00:05:01.880 Senate Sergeant-at-Arms: All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the Impeachment Court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. 00:05:02.340 --> 00:05:10.620 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator Judge Mark Villar. 00:05:14.320 --> 00:06:03.690 Sen. Mark A. Villar: Let us put ourselves in the presence of God. Almighty Father, we humbly stand before you today as we resume trial in this impeachment court. We beseech you to bless and inspire us so that all we think, say, and do aligns with your will. In times of adversity, we ask that you renew our spirit, keep our focus steady, and grant us the physical, emotional, and spiritual strength required for the magnitude of our responsibilities. We lean fully upon your grace to sustain us. Fill our hearts with wisdom, discernment, and integrity. Lighten our minds with clarity to carefully weigh the evidence before us, stripping away all confusions. We may examine every testimony and record the objective fairness, distinguishing truth from speculation. Shield us from the traps of personal bias, political variance, or divisiveness that could cloud our judgment, and grant us the grace to put the justice 00:06:03.690 --> 00:06:07.970 Sen. Mark A. Villar: before gain, the plight of the Filipinos before our own, and truth above all. 00:06:08.490 --> 00:06:42.290 Sen. Mark A. Villar: Fill our hearts with wisdom and understanding in all our judgments that we may be effective channels of truth and justice. Grant us the grace of true independence, giving us courage to stand firm in what is right against political pressures and outside influences, remaining faithful to our solemn oath to the Constitution and the people we serve. Give us humility to seek your will, the truth that may be fully revealed under your light as we take our final steps. Continue to guide us so that peace and accountability may prevail. May our concluding judgment be rooted entirely in fairness, integrity, and righteousness for the fulfillment of your greater glory. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:44.270 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Trial suspended. 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:10.280 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The Clerk of Court will now call the roll. 00:14:11.920 --> 00:14:24.440 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Roll call of members. The Honorable Senator Judge Aquino. Senator Judge Cayetano Alan. Senator Judge Cayetano Pia. Senator Judge Dela Rosa. Senator Judge Ejercito. 00:14:25.100 --> 00:15:03.340 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Senator Judge Estrada Senator Judge Go Senator Judge Hontiveros Senator Judge Lacson Senator Judge Lapid Senator Judge Legarda Senator Judge Marcoleta Senator Judge Marcos Senator Judge Padilla Senator Judge Pangilinan Senator Judge Sotto III Senator Judge Tulfo Erwin Senator Judge Tulfo Raffy Senator Judge Villanueva Senator Judge Villar Camille Senator Judge Villar Mark, Senator Judge Zubiri, the Presiding Officer Senator Judge Escudero, the Senate President Senator Judge Gatchalian. 00:15:03.540 --> 00:15:08.000 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: With 13 Senator Judges present, the Chair declares the presence of a courtroom. 00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:19.040 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: In accordance with the Rules of Procedure on Impeachment Trials, the Chair now recognizes the newly elected Presiding Officer to preside over the proceedings of the Impeachment Court. 00:15:20.260 --> 00:15:40.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Mr. Senate President. If there are no objections, we shall dispense with the reading of the journal. for October 7 to 8 and October 9. That is journal number 35 and journal number 36 of the Senate, sitting as an impeachment court and shall consider the same as approved. 00:15:42.890 --> 00:15:46.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The clerk will please call the case before the impeachment court. 00:15:46.570 --> 00:15:52.470 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Case number 004-2026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. 00:15:54.570 --> 00:15:55.710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Appearances of the parties. 00:15:57.160 --> 00:15:58.000 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Good morning, Your 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:00.830 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Honor. Same appearances. We're ready. for the prosecution. 00:16:01.330 --> 00:16:03.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Same appearance for the respondent. Accused, your honor. 00:16:04.810 --> 00:16:14.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The clerk of court is directed to situate the witness, attorney Alex Cabrera, to the witness stand for 00:16:17.690 --> 00:16:24.590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the continuation of his testimony, specifically the cross-examination by counsel for respondent. 00:16:27.680 --> 00:16:29.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Kristine, your apple box is there already. 00:16:30.620 --> 00:16:33.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, your honor. Thank you, your honor. 00:16:36.060 --> 00:16:37.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Good morning, your honor. 00:16:37.790 --> 00:16:39.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good morning, Honorable Chel. 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:42.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly take 00:16:42.780 --> 00:16:43.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: your seat. 00:16:44.140 --> 00:16:57.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Cabrera, naunawaan niyo po na patuloy kayong magbibigay ng inyong testimonya sa hukumang ito, sang-ayon at base sa pinanumpaan po ninyo nung huli kayong tumistigo dito noong nakaraang biyernes. 00:16:59.690 --> 00:17:00.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. 00:17:04.860 --> 00:17:05.640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kristine, are you ready? 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:07.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Ready, Your Honor. 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:09.540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed with your cross-examination then. 00:17:14.230 --> 00:17:17.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You can drink your water. First, sir. It's okay. 00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:33.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Are you good, sir? 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:34.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Thank 00:17:34.830 --> 00:17:34.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: you. 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Good morning, Atty. Cabrera. 00:17:39.170 --> 00:17:41.190 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Good morning, Honorable Kristine. 00:17:42.320 --> 00:17:48.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Just don't call me honorable because I'm not an honorable. I'm not part of the prosecution team. 00:17:51.790 --> 00:18:02.030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, I hope you had a great weekend. Now, you are here to testify as a forensic accountant of the prosecution, correct? 00:18:02.490 --> 00:18:02.950 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right. 00:18:03.740 --> 00:18:18.140 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And your testimony is to prove the allegation of unexplained wealth against the Vice President, Sara Zimmerman Duterte, under Article 2 of the Articles of Impeachment, correct? 00:18:18.460 --> 00:18:18.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right. 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:34.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And sir, aside from professional competence, all CPAs are bound by integrity and objectivity in conducting their forensic audit. Do you agree with that, sir? 00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:34.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:18:35.560 --> 00:18:39.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, we have 00:18:40.670 --> 00:18:52.050 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: a copy of your CV and your CV shows that you are the chairman of the Justice Reform Initiative or JIR. Do you confirm that, sir? 00:18:53.110 --> 00:18:53.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes, ma'am. 00:18:54.450 --> 00:18:54.850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 00:18:54.850 --> 00:19:03.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: as the chairman of JRI, is it fair to state that you have knowledge of the statements released by your organization? 00:19:03.770 --> 00:19:04.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Of course, 00:19:04.110 --> 00:19:04.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ma'am. 00:19:04.510 --> 00:19:04.810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:19:04.810 --> 00:19:22.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. Are you aware that your organization, the JRI, issued a statement on May 14, 2026, calling that the impeachment court convene and proceed with the impeachment trial of the Vice President, Sara Duterte? Are you aware of that, sir? 00:19:23.060 --> 00:19:23.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes, ma'am. 00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:28.620 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We are showing you a copy of that statement and we are also showing that statement on screen. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Do you confirm now, sir, that that is the statement that was issued by JRI? 00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:40.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is correct. 00:19:41.180 --> 00:19:41.320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:19:41.320 --> 00:19:41.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:51.300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your CV also shows that you are the chairman of the Integrity Initiative Inc., correct? 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right, ma'am. It was still an active organization. 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:56.060 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. 00:19:56.140 --> 00:19:56.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I was the last chairman. 00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:57.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. 00:19:59.590 --> 00:20:10.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And as the chairman, you are aware that it was organized in 2009 by five leading business organizations, and one of which is the Makati Business Club, correct? 00:20:11.450 --> 00:20:11.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right. 00:20:12.030 --> 00:20:12.730 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. 00:20:12.830 --> 00:20:20.130 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Your Honor, I'm very sorry to interrupt. May I just request a copy of the document that was shown to the witness? Thank you. 00:20:20.250 --> 00:20:26.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Assisting counsel is directed to furnish a copy to opposing counsel through assisting counsel as well. 00:20:26.590 --> 00:20:28.450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Through the back of the witness preferably. 00:20:28.750 --> 00:20:29.170 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: A copy of 00:20:29.170 --> 00:20:35.070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the documents that we have shown to the witness are being provided to the prosecution, Your Honor. 00:20:35.270 --> 00:20:44.430 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: So I will not interrupt later, Your Honor, if other documents will be shown to the witness. May I request that we immediately be given copies as well. Thank you. 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:54.730 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The other documents are already part of the examination or the direct examination of Mr. Cabrera, Attorney Diokno. Don't worry. 00:20:56.840 --> 00:21:07.420 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Are you aware sir that the Makati Business Club issued a statement on June 9, 2025 calling for the convening of the impeachment court? 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:10.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I'm aware po. 00:21:10.740 --> 00:21:17.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And we are showing you a copy of the statement and we are also showing a copy on screen. 00:21:26.310 --> 00:21:28.750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Council is being shown a copy of the statement. 00:21:30.330 --> 00:21:37.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Do you confirm that that is the statement that was issued by the Makati Business Club, sir, on June 9, 2025? 00:21:38.050 --> 00:21:46.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I'm aware po of the call for convening the impeachment court, but I do not have the time po to read the rest of the statement to confirm that this is such statement. 00:21:46.950 --> 00:21:57.420 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. That will suffice. Now, you also listed chairmanship in the Ethics Committee of the Management Association of the Philippines, or MAP, correct? 00:21:57.760 --> 00:21:58.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right, po. 00:21:58.820 --> 00:22:12.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You're of course aware that on June 11, 2025, the MAP voiced out its concern over the move to return VP Sara's impeachment case to the House of Representatives. Are you aware of that statement? 00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:14.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I am aware po. 00:22:14.560 --> 00:22:14.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We 00:22:14.920 --> 00:22:16.420 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: are showing you a copy of the statement. 00:22:18.050 --> 00:22:22.890 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the statement is also being shown on screen. 00:22:24.530 --> 00:22:30.870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Do you confirm that that was the statement that was issued by the MAP on June 11, 2025, sir? 00:22:31.190 --> 00:22:36.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Again, I am aware of the statement, but I don't have time to read to confirm that this is the 00:22:36.070 --> 00:22:36.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: entire statement. 00:22:36.930 --> 00:22:53.010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, that would suffice, sir. But still, at that time, you are the chairman of the Ethics Committee of the Management Association of the Philippines. Thank you, sir. Now, despite of all of these publications which were released by your organizations, you still accepted your appointment? 00:22:54.670 --> 00:23:06.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: by the public prosecutors for you to render forensic accounting services on the supposed unexplained wealth of the Vice President, Sara Zimmerman Duterte. Correct? 00:23:06.390 --> 00:23:07.230 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:23:07.410 --> 00:23:08.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. 00:23:09.230 --> 00:23:22.150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the indulgence of Attorney Kristine, can the tech kindly adjust the cursor on the screen? It's right at the forehead of Attorney Kristine. Okay. Thank you. You may proceed, Attorney Kristine. 00:23:22.350 --> 00:23:42.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. Now, sir, let's go to your appointment by the panel of prosecutors. Last Friday, we were provided with your appointment letter by the panel of the prosecutors. We will show the letter on screen, but we have covered your signature, sir, both your signature and Attorney Luistra's signature. 00:23:45.760 --> 00:23:55.560 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Just a clarification for the record, Your Honor. As I recall, it was the witness who produced a copy of the engagement letter. The prosecution panel did not provide it to him. 00:23:57.070 --> 00:23:59.410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But it was part of the testimony of the witness. 00:24:01.310 --> 00:24:03.370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Kindly show a copy of the letter to the witness. 00:24:12.290 --> 00:24:16.070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, do you confirm that that is your appointment letter by the public prosecutors? 00:24:16.090 --> 00:24:16.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I confirm po. 00:24:16.610 --> 00:24:17.190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, that letter is undated. Do you confirm that, sir? 00:24:26.030 --> 00:24:29.190 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: June 2026 po. Wala pong naisulat na. 00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:35.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. On the second paragraph, on the second paragraph of that letter, 00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:38.240 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: kindly 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:38.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: zoom. 00:24:41.390 --> 00:24:42.710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The second paragraph. 00:24:44.300 --> 00:25:02.250 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. I think that's enough. On the second paragraph, there seemed to have a planned vacation to Europe for two to three weeks and that will start tomorrow, sir. Is that right? Do you confirm that? 00:25:02.590 --> 00:25:04.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I confirm po. 00:25:04.310 --> 00:25:08.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. My question is quite personal. Have you packed your bag, sir? 00:25:10.860 --> 00:25:11.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kalahat. I'm a 00:25:11.740 --> 00:25:12.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: late packer po eh. 00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:15.340 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. What time will be your flight tomorrow, sir? 00:25:15.540 --> 00:25:17.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: It's not tomorrow. It's on Wednesday. 00:25:17.560 --> 00:25:26.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It's on Wednesday. Okay. Okay. So this is not accurate, this letter. The date is on Wednesday and not yet tomorrow. Okay, sir. 00:25:28.290 --> 00:25:35.570 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Based on this document, sir, it was the panel of prosecutors who approached you to be their forensic expert. Is that correct? 00:25:36.530 --> 00:25:39.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is correct. The prosecutors po. 00:25:40.060 --> 00:25:40.360 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:45.380 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. And who among the members of the panel of prosecutors approached you, sir, if you can recall? 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:47.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yeah, it is Congressman Shell Diokno. 00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:58.680 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Congressman Shell Diokno. And you have known Congressman Shell Diokno before by reason of your appearances in public hearings. Is that a correct statement? 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:15.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: No po. The first time I met Congressman Shell Diokno, I mean face-to-face, We sat on a panel together in the Good Governance Advocates of the Philippines. 00:26:15.630 --> 00:26:17.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And that was way back in? 00:26:17.880 --> 00:26:20.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That was not way back po. That was last 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:23.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: year 00:26:23.500 --> 00:26:24.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: lang po yata. 00:26:24.300 --> 00:26:35.980 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, so that's last year. Sir, the engagement provides that your engagement is pro bono. The letter provides that. 00:26:38.950 --> 00:26:42.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: When was this letter handed to you, sir, if you can recall? 00:26:42.590 --> 00:26:43.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: This engagement letter? 00:26:43.830 --> 00:26:44.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 00:26:44.090 --> 00:26:44.250 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. 00:26:44.350 --> 00:26:44.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Noon June po. 00:26:45.390 --> 00:26:53.810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Also in June 2026. Now, do you recall a specific date in June when the letter was handed to you, sir? 00:26:53.830 --> 00:26:54.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Early 00:26:54.270 --> 00:26:56.430 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: June po eh. 00:26:56.650 --> 00:26:57.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Early June? 00:26:57.490 --> 00:26:57.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Early 00:26:57.710 --> 00:26:58.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: June. 00:26:58.150 --> 00:26:58.630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 00:26:58.690 --> 00:27:00.530 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: first week or second week? 00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:02.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yeah, thereabouts po. Thereabouts. 00:27:02.310 --> 00:27:03.010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Mga first week 00:27:03.010 --> 00:27:03.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Alright, 00:27:03.910 --> 00:27:12.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. And... The engagement letter does not outline the procedures to be undertaken by you. Do you confirm that, sir? 00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:12.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yeah, 00:27:12.860 --> 00:27:13.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I confirm po. 00:27:14.340 --> 00:27:18.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Did you send another letter, sir, confirming the procedures? Procedures? 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:19.360 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:19.580 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. 00:27:20.620 --> 00:27:29.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po kong sinend na ito po lahat yung gagawin ko. Pero ang kasunduan po namin ay magkakanda ka po ng forensic report doon sa documents na ibibigay nila. 00:27:29.820 --> 00:27:37.780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you for that answer. So you confirm that this is the only letter that covers the engagement of your services, 00:27:38.140 --> 00:27:38.420 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: correct? 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:38.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is true po. 00:27:39.100 --> 00:27:47.060 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Now, the appointment letter also says that you may be assisted by such persons that you select. Do you confirm that, sir? 00:27:47.240 --> 00:27:47.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I confirm po. 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:55.980 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And how many people have assisted you in drafting and finalizing your forensic report, sir? 00:27:56.560 --> 00:28:06.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Noong first half po, mga dalawa lang. Pero nung second ha po Nel, na-delay po yung pagdating ng mga bank accounts. Nagdagdag po kami ng ako ng tatlo. 00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:13.400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. Now, all of these people are also rendering their service as pro bono. 00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:14.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:15.340 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Meaning for free. 00:28:15.500 --> 00:28:15.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 00:28:15.800 --> 00:28:16.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:28:16.160 --> 00:28:28.710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. Last Friday, you testified on the results of your assessment on the alleged unexplained wealth of the Vice President and her spouse, Manases Carpio, correct? 00:28:29.870 --> 00:28:30.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:28:30.630 --> 00:28:35.390 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And this allegation is found in Article 2 of the Articles of Impeachment, correct? 00:28:37.660 --> 00:28:38.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Allegation po of? 00:28:39.140 --> 00:29:01.410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Under Article 2 of the Articles of Impeachment, sir. Okay, thank you, sir. In fact, your forensic report, if you have a copy, sir, you can refer to it. Your forensic report dated October 2, 2026. Can a copy be shown, please? We are showing a copy to the witness. 00:29:04.350 --> 00:29:17.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Concluded that the respondent, vice president, had an unexplained wealth of 817.8 million pesos. 00:29:18.850 --> 00:29:19.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:29:19.570 --> 00:29:22.690 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That is your allegation in your forensic report. 00:29:22.970 --> 00:29:28.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is the results of my review po. Yung allegations po ay wala pong basihan ng ibig sabihin. 00:29:28.290 --> 00:29:44.690 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Okay. We'll accept your answer, sir. Now, on page 39, you concluded that the Vice President committed constitutional violations year on year by reason of her supposed unexplained wealth. Correct? 00:29:44.730 --> 00:29:45.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:29:45.130 --> 00:29:45.630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:29:45.650 --> 00:29:51.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. Now, your report covers the year 2022 to 2025, correct? 00:29:51.810 --> 00:29:52.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:29:52.470 --> 00:29:52.690 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:29:52.690 --> 00:29:56.650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. And that is during the respondent's tenure as a vice president. 00:29:56.670 --> 00:29:57.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is right 00:29:57.110 --> 00:29:57.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 00:29:57.410 --> 00:30:02.980 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That no longer covers the prior years from 2007 to 2021, correct? 00:30:03.320 --> 00:30:05.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: The unexplained wealth that 00:30:05.060 --> 00:30:05.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: we covered 00:30:05.540 --> 00:30:06.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: is 00:30:06.100 --> 00:30:06.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: for 00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:08.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: the period 22 to 25. 00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:08.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:33.010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. And apart from the Constitution, sir, you also cited the following laws which were allegedly violated by the respondent in page 39 of your report. With your kind indulgence, sir, we will go through these laws one by one. Now, You cited RA 1379. 00:30:35.020 --> 00:30:40.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede pong i-correct yung pagkakasabi niyo po. Were violated or may have been violated. 00:30:40.720 --> 00:31:00.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you sir for that. Were violated or may have been violated. Now, these laws include, first, RA 1379. And if you recall sir, based on your recollection, This governs the civil forfeiture of any property unlawfully acquired by a public officer, correct? 00:31:01.040 --> 00:31:01.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: APA. 00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:10.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: RA 6713 is also known as the Code of Conduct and Ethical Standards for Public Officers and Employees, correct? 00:31:10.360 --> 00:31:10.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: APA. 00:31:10.900 --> 00:31:16.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: RA 3019 is of course the Anti-Graft and Corrupt Practices Act, right? 00:31:16.800 --> 00:31:17.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: APA. 00:31:17.580 --> 00:31:23.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And RA 12009 is the New Government Procurement Act. Correct? 00:31:23.760 --> 00:31:24.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right, Pa. 00:31:24.300 --> 00:31:33.740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir, for that confirmation. Now, your report also cited the omnibus rules on statement of assets and liabilities and net worth, correct? 00:31:34.320 --> 00:31:34.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 00:31:34.760 --> 00:31:52.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: If you can recall, which, if you can recall also, the Civil Service Commission adopted through CSE Resolution No. 250063 dated June 25, 2025. If you can just recall it, sir. 00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:55.180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And that 00:31:55.180 --> 00:31:56.880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: was in footnote 3 of 00:31:56.880 --> 00:31:58.860 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: your report. And 00:31:58.860 --> 00:32:04.680 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: that omnibus SALN rules took effect on September 29, 2025, correct? 00:32:05.300 --> 00:32:05.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Okay. 00:32:07.050 --> 00:32:19.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. Now, just some personal questions, sir, if you don't mind. You testified last Friday that you were with Isla Lipan and Company or formerly Joaquin Cananan, sir? 00:32:20.090 --> 00:32:20.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: From 00:32:20.610 --> 00:32:26.120 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: 1988. until you retired in 2025. Correct, sir? 00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:26.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's correct po. 00:32:27.220 --> 00:32:30.940 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You have not been employed in the government, sir. Correct? 00:32:30.980 --> 00:32:31.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not yet po. 00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:35.180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. And you have not been appointed to any public position? 00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:36.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is right po. 00:32:36.380 --> 00:32:36.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Either. 00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:37.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Okay, 00:32:37.320 --> 00:32:37.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. 00:32:41.980 --> 00:32:45.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You have not been employed with the Civil Service Commission, correct? 00:32:45.500 --> 00:32:45.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:46.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yet po. 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:46.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:48.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. How about the Office of the Ombudsman? 00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:50.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi pa po. 00:32:50.620 --> 00:32:52.040 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, and also COA? 00:32:52.340 --> 00:32:52.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pa po. 00:32:52.900 --> 00:33:03.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, thank you, sir. Not having employed with the government, sir, with all due respect also, you have not executed and filed a SALN with the office of the Ombudsman, correct? 00:33:04.410 --> 00:33:05.430 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, tama po yan. 00:33:05.590 --> 00:33:34.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. Even if such is the case, you still opine that the VP committed violations in the declaration she made in her SALN. Is that right, sir? Even without having been employed with the government, not having executed any SALN, you still opine that the VP, committed violations in the declarations she made in the year SALN. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go back to your employment with Isla Lipana, sir. 00:33:37.580 --> 00:33:38.140 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: By 00:33:38.140 --> 00:33:56.770 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the way, Isla Lipana changed its name or firm name, Joaquin Cunanan, rather, changed its firm name to Isla Lipana in 2005. That is correct? Okay, thank you, sir. Now, you started as a... staff accountant, at Joaquin Cunanan and Company, correct? 00:33:57.110 --> 00:33:57.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 00:33:57.650 --> 00:34:00.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: On July 7, 1988, correct? 00:34:00.990 --> 00:34:01.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right, Pa. 00:34:01.770 --> 00:34:11.170 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. If you can just share, may I know the name of your partner in charge at that time, sir? If that's okay for you to share. If not, it's okay. 00:34:11.490 --> 00:34:17.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. Huwag na po nating banggitin po yung pangalan ng partner. Okay. Tutal po, Yumao na po 00:34:17.810 --> 00:34:17.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: siya. 00:34:18.070 --> 00:34:30.880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. That's okay, sir. And... Your work as a staff accountant was to conduct an external audit of financial statements of your clients in Joaquin Cunanan, correct? 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:31.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:31.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In 00:34:31.900 --> 00:34:33.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: short, you are a staff auditor, correct? 00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:34.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:34:34.560 --> 00:34:49.240 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In the modern version or in the later structure of PWC or Isla Lipana, this staff accountant is what we call as an associate in the audit and assurance department. 00:34:49.700 --> 00:34:50.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:50.700 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:34:50.700 --> 00:35:14.340 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. In fact, the current... Okay, I will no longer mention his name. I was about to mention the name of the current audit and assurance managing partner of Isla Lipana. Now, going back to your work experience, sir, you served as a staff accountant from July 7, 1988 to June 30, 1989, correct? 00:35:14.640 --> 00:35:15.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right, po. 00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:16.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And that is for about a year? 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:18.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: One year, po. 00:35:19.020 --> 00:35:28.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir. Thereafter, you transferred to the tax services department of Joaquin Cunanan or Isla Lipana on June 1, 1989. 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:29.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:35:29.100 --> 00:35:36.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir. Because of that transfer, you became a tax technical consultant. That was your job description then. 00:35:36.880 --> 00:35:37.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:35:37.620 --> 00:35:44.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir. And today, we call that tax technical consultant as a tax associate. Is that a correct attribution sir? 00:35:45.020 --> 00:35:45.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:35:45.700 --> 00:35:46.320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir. 00:35:48.100 --> 00:35:50.980 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I will no longer ask the name of your tax partner in charge. 00:35:52.660 --> 00:35:58.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And your report to this new tax partner, sir. To this tax partner of yours. 00:35:59.160 --> 00:35:59.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 00:35:59.540 --> 00:36:05.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. You no longer report to your previous audit and assurance partner in charge, correct? 00:36:05.380 --> 00:36:07.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. Pero... 00:36:07.220 --> 00:36:24.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Counselor Diokno or Attorney Diokno can ask you questions later, sir, regarding this matter if she has to. Now, I understand. that East Lalipana has a department also called Brother Assurance Services. Is that correct, sir? 00:36:25.210 --> 00:36:25.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:36:25.930 --> 00:36:26.190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 00:36:26.190 --> 00:36:29.370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: it offers fraud and compliance audit, correct? 00:36:29.390 --> 00:36:29.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right 00:36:29.710 --> 00:36:29.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 00:36:30.050 --> 00:36:36.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In fact, this department of East Lalipana is currently headed by Mr. Pocholo Dumundon. Is that correct? 00:36:38.570 --> 00:36:40.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po alam kung siya po yung leader ngayon. 00:36:40.650 --> 00:36:50.030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, going back to your resume, sir. The same does not mention that you were part of the broader assurance services, is that correct? 00:36:50.210 --> 00:36:50.290 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: It 00:36:50.290 --> 00:36:51.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: doesn't mention that po. Okay, 00:36:51.710 --> 00:37:04.510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. Also, it did not, while, although, it did mention your chairmanship in Isla Lipana. Now, let's go to your work in the tax department, sir. 00:37:06.570 --> 00:37:11.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, the tax department is a separate division of Isla Lipana, correct? 00:37:12.950 --> 00:37:14.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Separate LOS, but not siloed. 00:37:14.990 --> 00:37:18.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. It's a separate department of Joaquin Cunanan and Company. 00:37:19.210 --> 00:37:20.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes, it doesn't 00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:23.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: operate independently of the firm. 00:37:23.490 --> 00:37:23.850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. 00:37:23.850 --> 00:37:24.170 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It's not 00:37:24.170 --> 00:37:24.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: siloed. 00:37:24.750 --> 00:37:30.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. But it is still under Isla Lipana, although a separate department. 00:37:31.190 --> 00:37:33.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron pong separate na LOS po ang tax. Opo. 00:37:33.850 --> 00:37:34.310 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:37:35.310 --> 00:37:40.710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It is also separate. It is separate from the Audit and Assurance Services Department, sir. Correct? 00:37:41.470 --> 00:37:42.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:37:42.210 --> 00:37:42.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:37:42.450 --> 00:37:46.630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. It is also separate from the broader assurance department, correct? 00:37:46.990 --> 00:37:47.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:37:47.690 --> 00:38:00.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. Now, the tax department under which you were already working at the time, in 1989, offers the following services. Tax accounting and regulatory compliance. Do you confirm that? 00:38:00.510 --> 00:38:00.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:38:01.230 --> 00:38:04.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Such as assistance in the preparation and filing of tax returns. 00:38:06.310 --> 00:38:09.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Tax audit or due diligence, sir? 00:38:10.130 --> 00:38:10.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:38:10.870 --> 00:38:20.530 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But the audit, The determination refers to the determination or tax compliance of a client with the BAR, correct? 00:38:21.970 --> 00:38:23.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po ganun ka-restrictive po yan. 00:38:23.910 --> 00:38:27.330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, but mostly that is the coverage of your tax audit. 00:38:27.330 --> 00:38:27.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasama 00:38:27.610 --> 00:38:32.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po ang rules at hindi po natin yung matitignan na hindi po inaanalyze ang financial statements po. 00:38:32.910 --> 00:38:42.070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Yes. I get that, sir. Now, international tax and transfer pricing and also rendering of tax opinion, sir. 00:38:42.570 --> 00:38:43.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes po. 00:38:43.230 --> 00:38:51.510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. The tax department under which you were working at that time does not offer auditing and assurance services, correct? 00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:52.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: The 00:38:52.930 --> 00:38:54.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: tax department does not audit... 00:38:54.630 --> 00:38:57.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Does not offer auditing and assurance services. 00:38:57.650 --> 00:38:57.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 00:38:57.790 --> 00:39:00.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Meron pong separate na department po yan. 00:39:00.730 --> 00:39:04.650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So the answer is yes, it does not offer auditing and assurance services. 00:39:04.870 --> 00:39:04.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 00:39:05.110 --> 00:39:33.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. The tax department does not conduct an external audit of the financial statements of... The clients of PWC or Isla Lipana or Joaquin Cunanan. Thank you, sir. Its services do not include rendering an independent opinion on the financial statements of your clients. Correct? Thank you, sir. While the tax department offers tax fraud audits, the focus of the audit is compliance with tax laws. 00:39:36.400 --> 00:39:42.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Compliance with tax laws and kung ano po yung misrepresentation po sa financial statement po. 00:39:42.840 --> 00:39:44.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: All of these relate to tax laws also. 00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:45.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:39:45.160 --> 00:39:51.580 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. Now, because fraud audit in general is being handled by the assurance department, correct, sir? 00:39:52.630 --> 00:39:53.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Fraud 00:39:53.110 --> 00:39:53.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: audit in general? 00:39:54.030 --> 00:39:54.430 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. 00:39:56.230 --> 00:40:02.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pagka po fraud audit po kasi yung pinag-uusapan, na-involved na po yung lahat po ng LOS po ng firm. 00:40:02.530 --> 00:40:02.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Ang 00:40:02.970 --> 00:40:12.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: audit po, ang tax po, ang broader assurance, at kung sino man po yung expert na kailangan po, nagtutulong-tulong po kami. Yan po ang ibig sabihin ng hindi po siya siloed. 00:40:13.090 --> 00:40:20.470 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you for that clarification. Now, while working in Joaquin Cunanan's tax department, you took up law, correct? 00:40:20.810 --> 00:40:21.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:40:21.750 --> 00:40:27.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And lawyering is also consistent with your career track under the tax services department of Joaquin Cunanan? 00:40:27.970 --> 00:40:28.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is right po. 00:40:28.860 --> 00:40:29.480 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:34.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: after passing the bar in 1996, you maintained your employment with Joaquin Cunanan, correct? 00:40:35.160 --> 00:40:36.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 1994 po ako 00:40:36.100 --> 00:40:36.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: nakapasa ng bar. 00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sorry, I stand corrected. 1994, sir. 00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:40.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 00:40:40.540 --> 00:40:52.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: after passing the bar in that year, you maintained your employment with Joaquin Cunanan, correct? As a tax lawyer in the tax services department, of course. 00:40:53.230 --> 00:41:00.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So you were employed? as an attorney in the tax services department of Joaquin Cunanan and Company. 00:41:01.190 --> 00:41:02.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: As a CPA and lawyer po. 00:41:02.650 --> 00:41:10.810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Of course, sir. You were not employed as an auditor of the audit and assurance department of Joaquin Cunanan and Company. 00:41:10.950 --> 00:41:13.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po ako auditor sa LOS na yun po. 00:41:13.390 --> 00:41:21.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. As a tax lawyer in the tax department, your work was focused on taxation, corporate law, mergers and acquisitions, correct? 00:41:22.430 --> 00:41:22.950 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 00:41:23.130 --> 00:41:23.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:41:24.110 --> 00:41:29.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And... As a tax lawyer, you can now represent clients before the SEC, correct? 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:32.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nagre-represent po kami sa SEC po. 00:41:32.420 --> 00:41:39.580 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. More importantly, as a tax lawyer, you can now represent clients before the BIR, correct? 00:41:39.740 --> 00:41:39.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Oo 00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:43.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Kahit punong CPA pa lang po, pwede na po mag-represent sa BIR po. 00:41:43.620 --> 00:41:56.940 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. And, am I correct to say that as a tax lawyer, your work mostly involved? Representing clients before the SEC and the BIR and other government agencies. 00:41:57.560 --> 00:41:58.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: As a 00:41:58.700 --> 00:41:59.300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: tax lawyer. 00:41:59.780 --> 00:42:10.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po eh. Hindi po. Talaga pong ano. Talaga pong malaki po yung M&A component. Malaki po yung due diligence review. Malaki po yung consulting. 00:42:10.960 --> 00:42:13.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Just answer yes or no, sir. Sorry. I have to. 00:42:13.560 --> 00:42:14.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: No, Your Honor, please. It's 00:42:14.580 --> 00:42:14.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: not po. It's 00:42:14.900 --> 00:42:16.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: not po na. Puro 00:42:16.720 --> 00:42:17.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ganun po ang ginagawa ko. 00:42:17.860 --> 00:42:18.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. I understand. Your 00:42:18.920 --> 00:42:31.600 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Honor, I'm sorry to interrupt. May I just request that since the good counsel was the one who asked the question of the witness, that she not interrupt him and allow him to finish the question, to the answer I mean. 00:42:31.720 --> 00:42:47.620 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, if I will ask you, if I will request you to just answer with yes or no, can you please answer with yes or no? And your lawyer will also ask a question regarding that matter if he deems appropriate later on redirect. 00:42:48.110 --> 00:43:16.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The comment of Honorable Diokno is duly noted. The witness is instructed to kindly be responsive. As the case may be, although if there is a need for you to explain your answer, if it cannot be answerable by a simple yes or no, you may ask permission of the counsel if there is a need to ask further questions or if you can explain your answer. If not, then opposing counsel, the Honorable Diokno, can take that up and redirect. You may proceed, Atty. Kristine. 00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:16.940 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:43:16.940 --> 00:43:24.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, Your Honor. Now, as a tax lawyer, you no longer audit the financial statements of PWC's clients. 00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:27.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: As a tax lawyer po? 00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:28.680 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes po. 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:29.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:30.400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:47.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Am I correct to say, sir, that under PWC's global policy and standards, the firm's tax department is strictly prohibited from providing external audit services to any of The firm's client. 00:43:48.940 --> 00:43:54.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, hindi po ganun ang design nun. Ang audit partners lamang po yung nakakapirma ng audit 00:43:54.060 --> 00:43:54.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: credentials. 00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:54.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:43:54.800 --> 00:44:00.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. So, the answer to that is yes. Yes. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go back to your work 00:44:02.620 --> 00:44:13.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: as a tax lawyer. Let's expound a bit. Now, your work as a tax lawyer already involves handling requests before the BIR, correct? 00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:15.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasama po yun. 00:44:16.020 --> 00:44:17.860 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Law division? 00:44:18.950 --> 00:44:19.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasama po yun. 00:44:20.170 --> 00:44:22.010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: International Tax Affairs Division. 00:44:22.390 --> 00:44:22.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasama 00:44:22.610 --> 00:44:23.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yun. 00:44:23.210 --> 00:44:23.510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:44:23.850 --> 00:44:32.250 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you also represented clients for tax assessments or audits before the BIR. 00:44:32.510 --> 00:44:32.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:44:32.990 --> 00:44:42.750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. If I can recall your testimony last Friday, you said that you really considered yourself as a tax expert. Tama po? 00:44:42.930 --> 00:44:43.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 00:44:43.470 --> 00:44:50.830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And if I may recall, if I can quote you, you mentioned something along the lines like, And taxation, yan ang expertise ko talaga. 00:44:51.350 --> 00:44:51.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 00:44:51.910 --> 00:45:05.850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: this representation really understands where you're coming from, sir. In fact, that statement really showed your passion also when it comes to taxation, if my assessment is correct. 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:11.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Taxation po, because of tax planning, tax structuring, M&A po. 00:45:11.240 --> 00:45:15.120 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. Now, even if you focus your entire career in taxation, 00:45:15.120 --> 00:45:16.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: and 00:45:17.020 --> 00:45:25.680 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Only devoted about a year in external audit as a staff accountant, you still consider yourself, sir, as a forensic accounting expert? 00:45:25.820 --> 00:45:26.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right, sir. 00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:29.720 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Objection, Your Honor. I think the... 00:45:29.720 --> 00:45:30.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Already answered, Your Honor. 00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:38.420 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Your Honor, already answered is not an excuse for the objection to be made. That's very clear, Section 39. 00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:40.280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is the objection, counsel? 00:45:40.990 --> 00:45:43.430 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: May I ask that the question be repeated? 00:45:44.310 --> 00:45:47.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, the witness already answered, I believe. 00:45:47.350 --> 00:46:17.060 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Your Honor, Section 39, should the witness answer the question before the adverse party had the opportunity to voice fully its objection, or where the question is not objectionable but the answer is not responsive, or where a witness testifies without the question being posed, or testifies beyond limits set by the court, and such objection is found to be meritorious. The court shall sustain the objection and order such answer, testimony, or narration to be stricken off the record. 00:46:17.160 --> 00:46:19.680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is why I'm asking for the ground for the objection, counsel. 00:46:19.820 --> 00:46:33.200 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: That's why, Your Honor, I'm asking that the question be repeated. Because if I recall the question, good counsel here misled the testimony or misdeclared the testimony of the witness last week. 00:46:33.580 --> 00:46:34.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Quick reply, Your Honor. So 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:36.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: your ground is that it's misleading. 00:46:37.550 --> 00:46:44.750 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, but I would like, Your Honor, please, that the question be repeated so that I can make it clear which part is objectionable. 00:46:45.090 --> 00:46:46.150 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: A quick reply, Your Honor. 00:46:46.310 --> 00:46:46.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We 00:46:46.550 --> 00:46:57.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: believe that the witness is an intelligent witness, Your Honor, and he fully understood and in fact responded to the question, Your Honor. Thank you. 00:46:57.190 --> 00:47:27.610 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Your Honor, may I be heard? Hindi po karera ito na pag sinagot ng witness agad yung tanong ay hindi na po pwede mag-object? ang abogado. That's very clear from section 39 of rule 130. If the witness answers quickly but the question is objectionable, counsel is still entitled to object. The court must rule on the objection and have the answer or the question stricken off the record. Now, to make my objection clear, I don't know why it's so difficult for counsel to repeat her question. 00:47:28.410 --> 00:47:29.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, counsel, but 00:47:29.950 --> 00:47:31.810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Kristine, before the court makes a ruling. 00:47:31.810 --> 00:47:45.130 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, may we know the ground of the objection, Your Honor, because if it was misleading, the witness could not have answered it intelligently, Your Honor. But as you see, Your Honor, the witness has in fact given his answer, Your Honor. 00:47:45.450 --> 00:47:47.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Allow the court to make a ruling. 00:47:49.060 --> 00:48:26.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If the panel of prosecutor needs the question to be repeated to make the appropriate objection and the witness has already answered, then The court would have to overrule that objection and also if it is based on the fact that it was misleading, it was not misleading. I remember the question. She was simply comparing the claim of the witness in regard to his supposed one-year experience only in the division when he was starting out that focused on this particular fact. and or assertion. 00:48:26.730 --> 00:48:29.850 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: I now 00:48:29.850 --> 00:48:45.150 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: recall what was stated by the good counsel and she said that if you're only especially if if you only did tax lawyering sorry she was stating that she 00:48:45.150 --> 00:48:45.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: was 00:48:45.870 --> 00:48:56.150 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: insinuating your honor that this witness has not had any experience at all in auditing That was the import of her question and that's why it's misleading. 00:48:56.630 --> 00:49:02.330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, please, that statement of Atty. Diokno is the one which is misleading. 00:49:02.410 --> 00:49:02.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, 00:49:02.870 --> 00:49:20.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I don't recall it that way, Honorable. I think Atty. Kristine asked that he had experience but that only it was for a short period of time, a year in fact, if I recall correctly. Let's move on. For the meantime, with your indulgence, Honorable Diokno, the objection is overruled. Atty. Kristine, you may continue. 00:49:21.860 --> 00:49:29.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. With your kind indulgence, sir, I will be asking more personal questions, sir. 00:49:30.720 --> 00:49:37.040 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: As a lawyer, sir, have you handled a complaint for graft and corruption before the Office of the Ombudsman? 00:49:37.300 --> 00:49:37.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po. 00:49:37.680 --> 00:49:46.360 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. Have you handled, either as a private prosecutor or defense lawyer, a case involving graft and corruption before any court? 00:49:46.420 --> 00:49:46.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: As a 00:49:46.540 --> 00:49:47.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: lawyer, po, hindi po. 00:49:47.540 --> 00:49:52.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. How about a case involving malversation or misuse of public funds? 00:49:53.060 --> 00:49:53.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi pa po. 00:49:53.740 --> 00:49:58.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. How about a case involving violation of RA 6713? 00:49:59.300 --> 00:50:00.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi pa po. Pero lahat po 00:50:00.740 --> 00:50:02.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ng elements nito alam po kahit po ng estudyante. 00:50:03.080 --> 00:50:03.620 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. 00:50:03.640 --> 00:50:04.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Gusto ko lang po 00:50:04.040 --> 00:50:04.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: masabi na 00:50:04.700 --> 00:50:06.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi po mahirap 00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:07.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: basahin yung batas. 00:50:07.360 --> 00:50:18.790 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We take that answer too. How about plunder? Have you handled a case involving plunder? How about handling a civil forfeiture case, sir? Have you done so? 00:50:19.170 --> 00:50:19.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not yet, po. 00:50:20.090 --> 00:50:26.170 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Have you been an expert witness, sir, in a graft and corruption case before any court? 00:50:26.770 --> 00:50:29.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po. CTA lang po ako nakapag-commissioner po. 00:50:29.490 --> 00:50:29.790 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:50:29.910 --> 00:50:38.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. How about being an expert witness in a case involving unexplained wealth or ill-gotten wealth before the Sandiganbayan? 00:50:38.540 --> 00:50:39.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: This is the first 00:50:39.160 --> 00:50:40.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: time po and I hope it's the last. 00:50:41.230 --> 00:50:47.870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay sir, we got that answer. Now, so you have not been an expert too in a civil forfeiture case in any court? 00:50:48.210 --> 00:50:48.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not yet po. 00:50:48.950 --> 00:50:57.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you sir. Have you been an amicus curiae in an unexplained or ill-gotten wealth case before the Sandiganbayan? 00:50:57.390 --> 00:51:00.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po, napaka-justices lang po pwede doon. 00:51:00.170 --> 00:51:00.670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:06.340 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Why not, sir? How about a civil forfeiture case? Have you been an amicus curiae? 00:51:06.420 --> 00:51:06.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 00:51:06.460 --> 00:51:06.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pa po. 00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:07.000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:51:08.510 --> 00:51:29.730 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Despite not having appeared in any court as counsel or as an amicus curiae, in cases involving graft and corruption, ill-gotten wealth, or civil for future, you of course are still appearing as an expert witness and opining on the supposed constitutional violations of the vice president, correct? 00:51:29.730 --> 00:51:30.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right 00:51:30.130 --> 00:51:30.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 00:51:30.590 --> 00:51:40.060 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir. We understand also sir that you attended leadership and management program at Harvard Business School in 2006. 00:51:40.600 --> 00:51:40.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:46.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And that is a non-curriculum leadership program sir. 00:51:46.380 --> 00:51:47.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 00:51:47.600 --> 00:51:49.940 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Which lasted for about a week? 00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:51.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: A week po, hindi po. 00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:52.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Four to six days? 00:51:53.080 --> 00:51:56.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Mga less na naman po pero mga one month po yung preparation. 00:51:57.000 --> 00:51:59.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you sir. And finally sir, 00:52:03.730 --> 00:52:09.690 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: May we know sir if you are a member of the Institute of Certified Forensic Accountants in the Philippines? 00:52:10.150 --> 00:52:16.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po. Nung tinayo po yan ay 2001. Eleven years na po akong partner nung 00:52:16.010 --> 00:52:16.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: tinayo po 00:52:16.510 --> 00:52:16.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: siya. 00:52:16.810 --> 00:52:17.130 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 00:52:17.130 --> 00:52:18.150 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you for that answer. Eleven years 00:52:18.150 --> 00:52:19.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na po ako at partner na po ako nun. Sorry. 00:52:20.010 --> 00:52:21.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you sir. Thank you for that answer. 00:52:23.850 --> 00:52:48.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Pardon me sir. but I will have to ask you some more questions. Of course, these are not meant sir to downplay your achievements. Please have that in mind sir because your achievements are what they are already. Now, going back to your CV sir, Curriculum Vitae, Curriculum Vitae, can a copy be shown to the witness? 00:53:00.020 --> 00:53:05.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In your CV sir, nothing was attached to it. Do you confirm that, sir? 00:53:06.180 --> 00:53:08.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, ito lang po yung pre-prepare kong summary po. 00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:13.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, salamat po, sir. Your diplomas were not attached to the CV? 00:53:13.460 --> 00:53:13.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po, 00:53:13.880 --> 00:53:14.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi po naka- 00:53:14.580 --> 00:53:25.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Certifications from the PRC and the Supreme Court concerning your admission to the CPA profession and the bar were also not attached to the CV, correct, sir? 00:53:25.720 --> 00:53:25.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, 00:53:25.740 --> 00:53:26.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi po naka-attached. 00:53:26.700 --> 00:53:34.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Of course, again, this doesn't mean that they don't exist, but I'm just asking this as a matter of record, sir. Please understand. 00:53:34.250 --> 00:53:35.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po naka-attach po. 00:53:35.650 --> 00:53:40.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. No client testimonials were attached to your CV, sir. 00:53:40.550 --> 00:53:41.190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: No 00:53:41.190 --> 00:53:47.190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: certification from PWC also regarding your employment and partnership with the firm. 00:53:47.250 --> 00:53:47.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pa. 00:53:47.330 --> 00:53:47.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: No 00:53:47.970 --> 00:53:58.350 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: peer reviews were attached. No reviews by fellow tax lawyers, by audit partners were attached also in your CV, sir. 00:53:59.180 --> 00:54:02.680 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay sir, I 00:54:02.680 --> 00:54:07.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: understand. No other certifications on memberships were also attached to your CV, sir. 00:54:08.340 --> 00:54:08.740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:11.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: nandun po. May isang kwarto po puro po, ano dun. 00:54:11.360 --> 00:54:12.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. 00:54:12.720 --> 00:54:13.180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 00:54:13.260 --> 00:54:13.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: salamat po. 00:54:16.720 --> 00:54:27.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Now, let's proceed with your appointment. Going back to your appointment letter. I hope you have a copy of that. 00:54:28.220 --> 00:54:28.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:35.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Going back to your appointment letter, may we know, sir, when did you accept your appointment as a forensic expert? 00:54:35.620 --> 00:54:35.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Noong 00:54:35.740 --> 00:54:36.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: June pa. 00:54:36.380 --> 00:54:42.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: June, if you can recall, ah, June first week or second week. That's your answer earlier. 00:54:44.040 --> 00:54:50.000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. So, when did you commence your work, sir, after signing the appointment letter? If you just can recall. 00:54:50.500 --> 00:54:54.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Immediately po eh. Because naka, yeah, immediately po. 00:54:54.660 --> 00:54:59.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, by saying immediately, second week or third week of June? 00:54:59.260 --> 00:54:59.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yeah, around second 00:54:59.680 --> 00:55:00.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: week po yan. 00:55:00.600 --> 00:55:08.100 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Second week or third week of June. If you can recall, sir, what were the documents that were provided to you by the prosecution at that time? 00:55:08.140 --> 00:55:08.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Lahat po 00:55:08.620 --> 00:55:09.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: nung documents 00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:13.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na sinabit po sa impeachment court sa house po. 00:55:14.120 --> 00:55:15.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In June 2026, sir? 00:55:15.940 --> 00:55:19.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Lahat po nung mga galing po sa house na impeachment proceedings po. 00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:38.400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Alright. So, you're saying that In June 2026, based on your recollection, you were already provided with SALNs of the respondent from 2022 to 2025. 00:55:38.920 --> 00:55:39.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: SALN 00:55:39.060 --> 00:55:40.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po, AMLA, 00:55:40.340 --> 00:55:44.100 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: AMLA documents, AMLC documents, income tax returns? 00:55:44.520 --> 00:55:45.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pa po. 00:55:45.500 --> 00:55:46.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pa. Financial 00:55:46.160 --> 00:55:48.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: statements po ng corporations. 00:55:49.040 --> 00:55:50.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Bank statements? 00:55:50.700 --> 00:55:50.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: GIS. 00:55:51.240 --> 00:55:51.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pa. 00:55:51.720 --> 00:55:54.000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Wala pa. Okay. That's clear. Okay. Thank you, sir. 00:55:55.480 --> 00:55:56.320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, when 00:55:56.620 --> 00:56:02.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: These documents were handed to you or provided to you in June 2026. 00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:13.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Did the turnover of the documents to you or was the turnover of these documents to you covered by any transmittal letter, sir? 00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:20.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang po nung karton. Parang meron po yata yung transmittal po. 00:56:20.340 --> 00:56:20.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay but 00:56:20.900 --> 00:56:24.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: there was a transmittal letter that was given to you 00:56:24.640 --> 00:56:25.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: and 00:56:25.020 --> 00:56:26.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: which you also received, sir? 00:56:27.320 --> 00:56:33.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I don't think I signed po. Pinadala po yung, pinadala po sa office ko po yung ano. 00:56:34.020 --> 00:56:36.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Precisely, they were not attached to your report? 00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:36.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 00:56:36.920 --> 00:56:37.700 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That's the reason why? 00:56:37.900 --> 00:56:38.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 00:56:38.200 --> 00:56:39.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Now, 00:56:41.910 --> 00:56:53.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: when you received the documents from the banks and the AMLC and the BAR, may I know when you received this sir? If you can recall? 00:56:53.480 --> 00:56:55.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Bandang September na po yan eh. 00:56:55.100 --> 00:56:55.840 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, September. Okay. 00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:56.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 00:56:58.350 --> 00:57:20.010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: When you received these subpoenaed documents, of course, it did not occur to you or did it ever occur to you that you or the person who provided the documents, the bank officers, the AMLC officers, or the BIR officers, may be violating confidentiality law, sir? 00:57:20.270 --> 00:57:22.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po akong concern po doon. Ang 00:57:22.450 --> 00:57:22.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: concern ko 00:57:22.970 --> 00:57:26.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: lang po ay matangga po yung documents sa prosecution at yun po yung titignan ko. 00:57:27.030 --> 00:57:27.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po akong 00:57:27.870 --> 00:57:30.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: concern doon sa... outside of that po. 00:57:30.290 --> 00:57:30.850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. 00:57:31.070 --> 00:57:35.130 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We are showing you this law, sir, that I mentioned earlier. 00:57:37.680 --> 00:57:49.000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Kindly give your answers after my question, sir. For the AMLC report, sir, we are citing Section 8A of RA 916. 00:57:51.120 --> 00:57:58.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Section 8A, we are showing it on the screen, sir. I hope you can see that. 00:57:59.570 --> 00:58:00.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Medyo pa. 00:58:00.670 --> 00:58:37.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Section 8A provides, if I can read the first paragraph, the AMLC and its secretariat shall securely protect information received or processed and shall not reveal in any manner any information known to them by reason of this office. This prohibition shall apply even after their separation from the AMLC. And then the second provision that we will show is section 6 of RA 9194 which amends section 9C of RA 9160. Can that be shown on the screen? 00:58:43.040 --> 00:58:47.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Can the in-charge of the tech booth show that on screen? 00:58:50.330 --> 00:58:51.710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly blow it up a bit. 00:58:52.090 --> 00:58:54.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Kindly blow it up a bit, David. 00:58:56.950 --> 00:58:58.790 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I hope you can see that, sir. 00:59:03.360 --> 00:59:04.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Medyo mahirap po. 00:59:05.460 --> 00:59:53.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, I will just read it sir for your reference. Okay, when reporting covered or suspicious transactions to the AMLC, covered institutions and their officers and employees are prohibited from communicating directly or indirectly in any manner or by any means to any person or entity, the media, The fact that a covered or suspicious transaction report was made. The contents thereof or any other information in relation thereto. I'll stop in that portion. And lastly, sir, the last provision regarding the AMLC records that we will show on screen is Section 9D of RA 9194, which amends Section 14 of RA 9160. 00:59:55.210 --> 01:00:20.980 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Can that provision be shown on screen? Then I will read it also sir for your reference. Section 9, Section 14, Paragraphs C and D of the same act are hereby amended to read as follows. Letter D, breach of confidentiality. I will no longer specify the penalties but it includes imprisonment and fine. But this is not meant to scare you, sir. 01:00:21.640 --> 01:00:22.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I'm 01:00:22.140 --> 01:00:22.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: not scared 01:00:22.520 --> 01:00:23.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: naman po. 01:00:23.120 --> 01:00:41.400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. I will now ask my question, sir. As a lawyer, you did not feel concerned that the furnishing of AMLC documents to you and information also to you without the permission of the impeachment court may violate this laws which we cited earlier. 01:00:44.730 --> 01:00:52.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dahil na take up na po sa house at pinagtalunan na po sa house, kaya po ang nasa isip ko ay okay lang po yan na 01:00:52.640 --> 01:00:53.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: tanggapin ko. 01:00:53.380 --> 01:02:13.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, salamat po. Now for the bank documents, we will also show Section 2 of RA 1405 or the Bank Secrecy Law. Kindly show it on the screen. I will also read it sir for your reference. Section 2, of course I know you are familiar with this. Section 2, all deposits of whatever nature. With banks or banking institutions in the Philippines, including investments in bonds issued by the government of the Philippines, its political subdivisions and its instrumentalities are hereby considered as an absolutely confidential... as of an absolutely confidential nature and may not be examined, inquired, or looked into by any person, government, official, bureau, or office except upon written permission of the depositor or in cases of impeachment. or upon order of a competent court in cases of bribery or the reliction of duty of public officials or in cases where the money deposited or invested is the subject matter of the litigation. Now, my question sir is, having known this law as a lawyer, you did not feel concerned also by the furnishing of copies of bank documents to you without the authority of the impeachment court? 01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:15.300 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Objection, Your Honor. 01:02:16.700 --> 01:02:18.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede pong sagutin. 01:02:20.420 --> 01:02:22.020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Maya-maya na, Atty. Alex. 01:02:22.680 --> 01:02:26.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are you withdrawing your objection that you haven't stated yet? 01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:28.640 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: May I just 01:02:28.640 --> 01:02:41.340 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: make a manifestation instead, Your Honor, that the witness earlier, when asked when he was provided with the documents in early June, said that he was not yet provided with the bank records at that time. 01:02:41.500 --> 01:02:42.060 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Just to be 01:02:42.060 --> 01:02:42.700 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: clear, Your Honor. 01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:43.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, quick reply. 01:02:44.850 --> 01:02:45.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Gacin. 01:02:46.010 --> 01:02:53.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The questions were asked, in relation to his receipt already of the documents. Not when the documents were not yet provided to him. 01:02:53.980 --> 01:02:54.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, 01:02:54.160 --> 01:03:03.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: this one. This one. I think Honorable Diokno was referring to the earlier questions na sinagot ng testigo. Not this one. And the witness expressed willingness to answer. 01:03:03.340 --> 01:03:03.860 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, 01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:04.960 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: I withdraw my objection. 01:03:05.460 --> 01:03:05.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly 01:03:05.980 --> 01:03:07.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: noted. Witness may answer. 01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:15.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kaya po ako hindi concerned kasi sa 3019 po na siya pong section 8 po na nagsasabing yung 01:03:15.080 --> 01:03:19.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: acquisition po ng property na manifestly disproportionate po sa income po. 01:03:20.300 --> 01:03:20.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, 01:03:20.840 --> 01:03:22.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I'm sorry, I have to stop you. 01:03:22.020 --> 01:03:26.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sinasabi po niya na bank deposits have been taken into consideration. 01:03:26.540 --> 01:03:27.060 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, please. 01:03:28.200 --> 01:03:40.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Alex, I think that would be enough. Again, any further explanation not called for in the question by Atty. Kristine may be dealt with by the Hon. Diokno during his redirect examination. 01:03:41.910 --> 01:03:57.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. My only question, my question was simple. You did not feel concerned? Hindi kayo nabahala when the bank documents were furnished to you by the prosecution without the authority or approval of the impeachment court? 01:03:57.830 --> 01:03:59.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dahil po 3019 po, ang 01:03:59.810 --> 01:04:01.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: bank deposits po ay kailangan din 01:04:01.610 --> 01:04:02.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pong matignan. 01:04:03.130 --> 01:04:04.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sabi po. Kaya po ako 01:04:04.650 --> 01:04:05.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi na 01:04:05.210 --> 01:04:07.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: bahala. Pinapaliwanag ko lang po kung 01:04:07.010 --> 01:04:07.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: bakit po ako 01:04:07.570 --> 01:04:08.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi na bahala. 01:04:08.830 --> 01:04:09.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nasa 01:04:09.310 --> 01:04:11.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: batas po yung bank deposits. Kailangan pong i-provide. 01:04:11.990 --> 01:05:34.750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay sir. So the answer to that is no po. So for the BIR documents which you received also, we will be citing section 270 of the tax code. We are showing that on the screen. This refers to unlawful divulgence of information. I know that you are quite familiar with that provision, sir. It says that except as provided in section 6F and 71 of this code and section 26 of Republic Act number 6388, any officer or employee of the Bureau of Internal Revenue who divulges to any person or makes known in any other manner that may be provided by law, information regarding the business, income, or estate of any taxpayer, the secrets, operation, style, or work, or apparatus of any manufacturer, or producer, or confidential information regarding the business of any taxpayer, then I have to stop in that sentence. Now, sir, based on this... Section 270 of the Tax Code, although we know both that this refers to officers and tax agents of the BIR, you are not concerned of any possible violation under Section 270 when you were furnished copies of the BIR documents without the authority of the impeachment court? 01:05:34.750 --> 01:05:37.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, hindi ko po problema maging concerned po doon. 01:05:37.290 --> 01:05:38.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sige po, salamat po. 01:05:38.290 --> 01:05:47.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tatanggapin ko lang po yung document at akin pong i-examine at bibigyan po ng analysis. Wala pong concern kung meron pong concern doon. 01:05:47.770 --> 01:05:57.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, salamat po, sir. Now, let's go to your report, sir. I hope you have a copy of your report. Kindly furnish a copy of the report to the witness. 01:06:04.490 --> 01:06:07.370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Let's go to page 24 of your report, sir. 01:06:14.150 --> 01:06:14.630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I 01:06:23.330 --> 01:06:26.350 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: hope you found page 24, sir. 01:06:27.170 --> 01:06:28.110 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, 01:06:28.130 --> 01:06:35.370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. According to page 24 of your report, Your examination focused on three corporations, correct? 01:06:37.360 --> 01:06:40.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo, doon po kami nag-concentrate sa tatlong corporation po. 01:06:40.740 --> 01:06:40.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:06:40.900 --> 01:06:48.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: salamat po, sir. And these corporations are Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, tama po, 01:06:48.280 --> 01:06:48.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:06:49.060 --> 01:06:49.740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: GenCorp 01:06:49.740 --> 01:06:50.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Industries Inc., 01:06:50.960 --> 01:06:52.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: tama po, 01:06:52.370 --> 01:06:54.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: and Cale88 Foods Corporation. 01:06:55.010 --> 01:06:55.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:06:55.470 --> 01:07:07.360 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. You also mentioned in the same page, page 24, that the reason for this is because of lack of material time. Do you confirm that? Thank 01:07:07.360 --> 01:07:08.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, 01:07:08.240 --> 01:07:22.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. Now, we noticed that the report does not contain a checklist of documents, this report itself that you examined. that you made, sir. Can you confirm, sir, that this report does not contain the checklist of documents? 01:07:22.800 --> 01:07:22.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong checklist 01:07:22.940 --> 01:07:25.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: of documents. Every document that we examined. 01:07:26.040 --> 01:07:26.580 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. 01:07:26.760 --> 01:07:30.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. Pero meron po itong annex at nandun po yung mga documents na 01:07:30.780 --> 01:07:31.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pinonsider 01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:32.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po sa report. 01:07:32.720 --> 01:07:39.000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, this document, this report does not contain that checklist. The main report, sir. 01:07:39.280 --> 01:07:42.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: But supported po with documents na nandun po sa annex. 01:07:42.560 --> 01:07:43.560 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. 01:07:52.170 --> 01:08:00.870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your report also, sir, this report has no table of contents. Although it's only 50 pages, but it does not have a table of contents. 01:08:01.170 --> 01:08:01.350 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:08:01.970 --> 01:08:17.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. Your report has no list of authorities. When I say list of authorities, it means the laws that you cited and the jurisprudence that you cited and the pages that... They were cited. It's a short summary of all of these authorities. 01:08:17.900 --> 01:08:18.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:19.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: meron pong mga footnote pa. 01:08:19.360 --> 01:08:30.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. I understand. But there is no list of authorities in the front page or somewhere else. Thank you, sir. Now, you can say this because of lack of material time too. 01:08:31.220 --> 01:08:31.780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, 01:08:32.820 --> 01:08:34.840 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: let's go to the main report, sir. 01:08:35.180 --> 01:08:35.740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: As 01:08:47.010 --> 01:09:01.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the appointed forensic auditor, of the panel of prosecutors, it is your opinion, sir, that the spouses Carpio had an undeclared wealth of 817.8 million as of 2025, correct? 01:09:02.180 --> 01:09:02.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 01:09:02.900 --> 01:09:26.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: this 817.8 million was the product of your examination of the documents provided to you by the prosecution, correct? Thank you, sir. Now, this 800... 17.8 million is composed of two items. First is undeclared assets. Sir, do you confirm that? 01:09:26.800 --> 01:09:27.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 01:09:27.260 --> 01:09:32.000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: second is undeclared income alleged. 01:09:34.320 --> 01:09:35.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Second 01:09:36.160 --> 01:09:42.560 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: is alleged undeclared income of the spouse's carpio. Correct? 01:09:43.020 --> 01:09:43.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, 01:09:44.120 --> 01:09:50.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: your report Does not contain any undeclared liabilities? 01:09:51.570 --> 01:09:52.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 01:09:52.290 --> 01:10:06.670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. Now, according to page 1 of your report, if you can refer to it, you did not examine or use any document coming from the respondent and her spouse, correct? 01:10:07.650 --> 01:10:09.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hinanap po namin doon sa impeachment proceedings 01:10:09.690 --> 01:10:09.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po 01:10:09.910 --> 01:10:10.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa answer. 01:10:10.610 --> 01:10:11.030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:10:11.070 --> 01:10:11.730 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. I have to 01:10:11.730 --> 01:10:17.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: stop you, sir. Sorry. I have to stop you, sir. Kindly respond to my question, please. 01:10:17.820 --> 01:10:18.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po 01:10:18.220 --> 01:10:20.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasi. Yan po yung sagot. 01:10:21.040 --> 01:10:21.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po 01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:25.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasi dun sa reply po, answer niya po sa House, tsaka po sa Senate. Wala 01:10:25.120 --> 01:10:25.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po kasi. 01:10:25.700 --> 01:10:32.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, that is a yes. You did not use any document coming from the respondent and her spouse. 01:10:32.440 --> 01:10:33.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Had there been, I would have used po. 01:10:34.180 --> 01:10:42.170 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Anyway, that is... Okay, let's answer the question, sir. Let's answer the question. So, that is a yes. Based on your report, of course. 01:10:43.740 --> 01:10:47.650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And... The answer is yes. Will 01:10:47.650 --> 01:10:51.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the witness kindly speak to the mic instead of simply nodding? So yes. 01:10:51.510 --> 01:10:58.430 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes. Okay. You also did not interview the respondent. Kindly just say yes or no. 01:10:58.650 --> 01:10:59.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes po. 01:10:59.290 --> 01:11:04.050 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. You also did not interview Mr. Manases Carpio. Yes or no only. 01:11:04.170 --> 01:11:05.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes po. Based on documents lang po kami. 01:11:05.970 --> 01:11:10.750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you. No interview was made with the accountant of the respondent vice president. 01:11:12.540 --> 01:11:14.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes, po. Na-examine lang po namin yung FS nila. 01:11:14.980 --> 01:11:15.860 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, salamat po. 01:11:16.360 --> 01:11:20.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You also did not interview the accountant of Mr. Manases Carpio? 01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:23.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes, po. Pare-pareho naman po yung accountant nila. 01:11:23.540 --> 01:11:29.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Now, no interview was also conducted with the auditor of the spouse's Carpio, correct? 01:11:29.880 --> 01:11:31.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Correct po. Pare-pareho po lahat ng auditor nila. 01:11:32.040 --> 01:12:02.040 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Anyway, you already answered the question, sir. Thank you. Now, let's go to the undeclared cash, sir. In your alleged... Sorry, I have to rephrase my question, the alleged undeclared cash. Now, just a quick inquiry, sir. When did you receive the bank documents from the prosecution? You mentioned a date earlier, but can it be more specific, sir, if you can? You can look at your notes, it's okay. 01:12:02.620 --> 01:12:06.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nareceive po. September po namin nareceive eh. 01:12:07.530 --> 01:12:43.050 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, September, sir. Is it correct that the BDO The BDO documents containing four boxes, Metro Bank documents which are contained in three boxes, BPI documents which are contained in two boxes, Land Bank documents which are contained in one small box or one box, and Security Bank documents which are in five boxes and one envelope. 01:12:44.610 --> 01:12:57.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: and PS Bank documents which are in one envelope. All of these were received by you after September 8, 2026. If you can recall, sir. 01:12:57.570 --> 01:12:59.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. May time drive din pong 01:12:59.010 --> 01:12:59.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasama 01:12:59.830 --> 01:13:01.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Kaya may digital copy po kami. 01:13:01.770 --> 01:13:06.010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. When exactly after September 8, 2026? 01:13:06.470 --> 01:13:10.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po ma-recall po yung exact date po. 01:13:10.470 --> 01:13:12.930 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But is it a week after that? 01:13:13.440 --> 01:13:14.700 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: A week 01:13:14.700 --> 01:13:16.620 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: after September 8, 2026, 01:13:16.620 --> 01:13:17.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: when 01:13:17.920 --> 01:13:21.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you received these documents that I enumerated, sir? 01:13:23.230 --> 01:13:25.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: If you can just recall, sir. 01:13:25.630 --> 01:13:29.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Parang around that week po eh. Parang second week po. 01:13:30.030 --> 01:13:57.880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Second week of September. Okay, sir. Now, is it also correct to say that you received the Asia United Bank Corporation documents? East-West Banking Corporation documents, Philippine National Bank documents, and Union Bank of the Philippines documents later after September 22, 2026. 01:13:58.630 --> 01:14:01.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po ma-recall yung exact date po. 01:14:01.990 --> 01:14:05.330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But these documents were received later by you. 01:14:05.450 --> 01:14:06.050 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 01:14:06.150 --> 01:14:08.890 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: After September 22, 2026, of course. 01:14:10.040 --> 01:14:14.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron po mga bankong dumating po. Bank documents po ang 01:14:14.040 --> 01:14:14.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: dumating 01:14:14.360 --> 01:14:16.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na mga later po than the earlier batch po. 01:14:16.700 --> 01:14:17.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Salamat, sir. 01:14:21.560 --> 01:14:32.400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Again, these documents that were transmitted to you by the prosecution, does not or does have transmittal letters with them? 01:14:33.860 --> 01:14:36.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. Wala pong transmittal letters po? 01:14:37.340 --> 01:14:40.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Meron ho bang transmittal letters? Or wala hong transmittal letters? 01:14:40.280 --> 01:14:40.380 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Parang 01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:44.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: wala pong... Hindi ko pa ma-recall na may exactong transmittal letters. 01:14:44.780 --> 01:14:45.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Pero 01:14:45.600 --> 01:14:48.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: minomonitor lang po namin yung mga dumarating po. 01:14:48.160 --> 01:14:58.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. So, you did not also provided the prosecution of copies or a list of the documents that were received by you. Did you provide that list, sir? 01:14:59.060 --> 01:14:59.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 01:14:59.160 --> 01:14:59.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Wala 01:14:59.660 --> 01:14:59.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 01:14:59.940 --> 01:15:00.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. 01:15:01.040 --> 01:15:03.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi po ang alam ko po, sabay pong pinadala sa 01:15:03.220 --> 01:15:04.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: prosecution 01:15:04.040 --> 01:15:04.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: at sa defense. 01:15:05.780 --> 01:15:09.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, I have no question yet. I think you have already answered my question, sir. Thank you, sir. 01:15:12.920 --> 01:15:19.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, your report, that's the reason why your report did not append any transmittal letter from the prosecution, correct? 01:15:20.260 --> 01:15:21.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sabay naman daw po kasi. 01:15:21.740 --> 01:15:25.240 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, salamat sir. Now, according to your report, 01:15:25.440 --> 01:15:26.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the 01:15:26.410 --> 01:15:40.870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: undeclared cash, you can also refer to your report sir, is the difference between the ending cash balance per bank and the cash declared in the SALN. You can refer to your notes sir. 01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:52.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Anong page po yung tinitignan niyo? 01:15:53.480 --> 01:15:57.750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Wait, I'll look for it. 01:16:02.460 --> 01:16:03.980 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That's on page 3, sir. 01:16:08.730 --> 01:16:15.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ito po yung, ito pong page 3, ito po yung mga listahan po ng mga bank accounts po nila. 01:16:15.690 --> 01:16:17.950 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. Ah, kindly wait for my question, sir. 01:16:27.670 --> 01:16:41.690 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. So, in your cash audit, you determined the undeclared cash as the difference between the cash balance per bank. and the cash declared in the SALN, correct? 01:16:42.070 --> 01:16:42.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:16:42.710 --> 01:16:43.110 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 01:16:43.110 --> 01:16:56.710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you assume that the cash per SALN is zero under that item, the cash item. Thank you, sir. Because the account cash was not specified in the SALN, correct? 01:16:56.990 --> 01:16:57.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:16:57.990 --> 01:17:09.070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You did not also consider in that specific report only on cash that the cash was slumped somewhere in the SALN, correct? 01:17:09.800 --> 01:17:12.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Naisip ko po. Possible pong ganun pero wala pong 01:17:12.320 --> 01:17:12.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: nakalagay 01:17:12.800 --> 01:17:12.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 01:17:13.080 --> 01:17:13.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:17:13.580 --> 01:17:27.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. Now, your report categorized the supposed bank accounts of the vice president and her husband into four. Your Honor, can I just ask permission to drink water? 01:17:43.820 --> 01:17:46.740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. You can also drink water, sir. 01:17:47.260 --> 01:17:47.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, po. 01:17:48.520 --> 01:17:52.140 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your report categorized the supposed bank accounts into four. 01:17:53.030 --> 01:17:59.050 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Table 1, table 1 01:17:59.630 --> 01:18:02.530 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: are the supposed accounts of the vice president, correct? 01:18:02.850 --> 01:18:03.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:18:04.070 --> 01:18:09.870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Table 2 are the supposed accounts of Manases Carpio, correct? 01:18:10.130 --> 01:18:10.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:18:11.350 --> 01:18:18.570 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Table 3 are the supposed joint accounts held by the respondent and Mr. Manases Carpio, correct? 01:18:18.770 --> 01:18:19.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 01:18:19.570 --> 01:18:29.150 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And table 4 are the supposed accounts of 888 Bistro, which is a sole proprietorship of Mr. Carpio, correct sir? 01:18:29.150 --> 01:18:29.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:18:30.100 --> 01:18:44.650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Going back to all of these tables, sir, the names of the account holders do not appear as a separate column in each of the tables, correct? You can go through each of the tables, sir. 01:18:45.030 --> 01:18:47.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. Nakalagay lang po yung account number, po. 01:18:47.090 --> 01:19:02.930 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, po. Thank you. Furthermore, there was no separate column in table 1 showing, let's go to table 1, sir, showing whether the listed accounts of the VP are held singly or with another person, correct? 01:19:04.000 --> 01:19:06.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Siya lang po yung nakapangalan po doon. 01:19:08.300 --> 01:19:13.780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But it did not refer to any account name, sir, as reflected in the bank statement. 01:19:14.000 --> 01:19:14.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo, 01:19:14.120 --> 01:19:15.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: nakareflect naman po yung account number, 01:19:15.840 --> 01:19:16.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasi 01:19:16.460 --> 01:19:18.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sinabi po namin na accounts niya po ito. But, 01:19:18.860 --> 01:19:20.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: okay, can 01:19:24.340 --> 01:19:30.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the person in the tech booth please remove the document? 01:19:32.720 --> 01:19:38.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As earlier agreed, kindly, who's in the tech booth again? Is it Dave? 01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:40.380 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: David. Well, 01:19:40.400 --> 01:19:45.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: David, similar to your request with the prosecution, kindly redact the account numbers. 01:19:47.710 --> 01:19:51.330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Kindly redact all the account numbers before flashing them on screen. 01:19:52.150 --> 01:19:53.850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's also for the respondent. 01:19:55.590 --> 01:20:04.950 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, I'll go back to my question, sir. Table 1 does not show... The names of the account holders as reflected in the bank statements. 01:20:06.640 --> 01:20:10.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Only the account number po. It doesn't show the name. Kasi po sinabi na po 01:20:10.460 --> 01:20:10.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: namin. 01:20:10.760 --> 01:20:22.850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. Kindly, I have to stop you on that. So, that table does not contain the names of the account holders. Now, 01:20:25.070 --> 01:20:53.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: one of the, or among the documents that are to be examined, in a forensic accounting are the kyc documents correct and your report does not contain sir can you please answer the question one of the documents that should be examined in a forensic audit are the kyc documents okay 01:20:53.290 --> 01:20:53.850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank 01:20:53.850 --> 01:21:05.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you sir and uh your report as it is now does not contain Any information on the KYC documents that you examined? 01:21:05.960 --> 01:21:10.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Only when there is one provided by the bank po yung mga na-examine namin KYC. 01:21:10.480 --> 01:21:14.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So you're saying that there's no KYC that were provided to you, sir? 01:21:15.380 --> 01:21:17.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron po kaming KYC na... 01:21:18.480 --> 01:21:18.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: natanggap po. 01:21:19.770 --> 01:21:23.150 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Merong KYC na natanggap but not for all the banks. 01:21:23.730 --> 01:21:24.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:21:24.530 --> 01:21:30.190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: so you completed your examination without examining all of the KYCs of this bank. 01:21:30.190 --> 01:21:30.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Lahat lamang 01:21:30.770 --> 01:21:33.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po ng available documents. 01:21:33.390 --> 01:21:43.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you sir. Thank you for that answer. Now, so that is the reason why the KYC information are not reflected in your report. Correct? 01:21:44.370 --> 01:21:44.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right. 01:21:45.030 --> 01:21:45.370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 01:21:45.370 --> 01:21:45.710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you sir. 01:21:48.450 --> 01:21:54.470 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now sir, you mentioned that you reviewed the year-end balances of each of the bank accounts. 01:21:54.870 --> 01:21:55.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 01:21:56.250 --> 01:22:07.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But you did not conduct your own confirmation as to the nature of these accounts with the banks, correct? Of course, I know the answer to that because you were not authorized by the account holders. 01:22:08.860 --> 01:22:10.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: You answered your question po. 01:22:10.440 --> 01:22:11.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir. 01:22:12.980 --> 01:22:20.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And of course, you were not also given authority. to send confirmation letters to the banks, correct? 01:22:21.290 --> 01:22:21.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:22:21.770 --> 01:22:26.470 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That's why no confirmation letters were also sent to these banks which you examined. 01:22:27.630 --> 01:22:30.290 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Nag-testify naman po yung mga taga-bank 01:22:30.290 --> 01:22:30.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po dito. 01:22:30.890 --> 01:22:46.240 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Yes, sir, that is already known to everyone. Now, with that, sir, you were not given any authority to inquire into any outstanding loans of the VP and her husband. 01:22:47.290 --> 01:22:48.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 01:22:48.580 --> 01:22:53.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You were not given copies of loan documents from the bank, if any, correct? 01:22:54.570 --> 01:22:55.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:22:55.710 --> 01:23:05.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you were also not given copies of other bank documents aside from those that were provided to you by the prosecution. 01:23:05.570 --> 01:23:05.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:23:06.050 --> 01:23:06.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. 01:23:20.700 --> 01:23:31.250 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, did you examine each and every transaction in the bank documents that were... furnished to you sir. 01:23:31.310 --> 01:23:31.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: As 01:23:31.410 --> 01:23:39.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: much as we can po pero very limited po yung time pero as much as we can we did what we could with the bank accounts 01:23:39.330 --> 01:23:39.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 01:23:39.730 --> 01:23:41.770 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you sir. Because 01:23:46.570 --> 01:23:55.790 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: we did not see any statement here in your report that you examined all of the bank transactions of the vice president and her spouse. 01:23:56.110 --> 01:24:08.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: One by one po. Yes. Lahat po ng transaction. Oo. Meron po kami mga hinanap sa mga eliminations. Pero bawat isang transaction po na examine each and every transaction. 01:24:08.780 --> 01:24:11.060 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You were not able to examine all of those, sir? 01:24:12.510 --> 01:24:18.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang in-examine po namin ay ano po yung inflows tapos ano po yung mga dapat tanggalin po dun sa inflows. 01:24:18.670 --> 01:24:34.630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. So, in short, sir, as you have said earlier, hanggang kaya lang. So, you were not able to examine all of the bank documents. Each and every transaction stated in the bank documents that were provided to you by the prosecution. 01:24:35.030 --> 01:24:38.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung ano po yung naibigay lamang po sa amin, yun lang po ang pwede naming pagbasihan. 01:24:39.230 --> 01:24:40.510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. 01:24:44.050 --> 01:24:51.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Did you also check, sir, whether the signature of the vice president appeared in the documents that you examined? 01:24:51.990 --> 01:24:52.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, pa. 01:24:54.970 --> 01:25:03.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Did you check whether her signatures appear in the acquisition of manager's checks. 01:25:03.740 --> 01:25:06.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang nag-a-appear po dun yung application po. 01:25:06.760 --> 01:25:07.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Application form. I'm sorry. 01:25:08.360 --> 01:25:08.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 01:25:09.340 --> 01:25:17.840 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. I will rephrase that question. Yes. The application form, I'm referring to that, sir. The application form concerning the application of manager's checks. 01:25:17.860 --> 01:25:18.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po siyang 01:25:18.520 --> 01:25:20.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: signature doon pero yung pangalan niya lang po yung nakalagay. 01:25:21.060 --> 01:25:31.670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So in short, based on the documents that you examined, the vice president has no signature in all of the applications for managers checks in the documents that you examined. 01:25:31.670 --> 01:25:31.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ito 01:25:31.690 --> 01:25:31.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po ba yung 01:25:31.830 --> 01:25:33.530 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa kanilang joint bank accounts po? 01:25:33.630 --> 01:25:49.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Later we will go to that, sir. Okay. You also examined the signature of the vice president in the renewal of her signature cards if such document was furnished to you, sir. 01:25:51.060 --> 01:25:51.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 01:25:52.260 --> 01:25:54.580 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But... There was no mention here. 01:25:54.840 --> 01:25:55.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung 01:25:55.320 --> 01:25:58.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: KYC po. Yung KYC update niya po. 01:25:58.140 --> 01:25:59.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Update, yes, sir. 01:25:59.300 --> 01:26:00.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ah, yung KYC update niya. 01:26:00.740 --> 01:26:01.060 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 01:26:01.100 --> 01:26:10.740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you were able to examine those, sir. But there was no mention here of the examination done by you, sir, of those updated KYC documents. Am I correct? 01:26:11.730 --> 01:26:13.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Parang hindi ko po nabanggit dito yun. 01:26:13.750 --> 01:26:14.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Updated 01:26:14.230 --> 01:26:15.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: KYC documents po. 01:26:15.570 --> 01:26:18.250 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. Now, in 01:26:24.300 --> 01:26:36.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: examining the bank account, sir, of the Vice President, You considered the bank accounts that were singly owned by Mr. Manases Carpio, correct? 01:26:36.910 --> 01:26:37.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 01:26:37.910 --> 01:26:56.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And this is found under tables 2 and 4 of your report, sir. But do you have any personal knowledge whether the Vice President actually knew? The existence of this account. 01:26:56.340 --> 01:26:57.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Personal knowledge po, wala po. 01:26:57.880 --> 01:26:59.380 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Wala. Salamat, sir. 01:27:03.310 --> 01:27:16.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: To set the record straight, sir, this examination of the bank balances that you made, this was made without hearing the side of the account owners, specifically the spouses, Scorpio. 01:27:17.090 --> 01:27:19.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: As mentioned po, documents lang po ang tinignan namin. 01:27:20.050 --> 01:27:28.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. It did not consider also the inputs, comments, and clarifications of these spouses, as you had mentioned, sir. 01:27:28.380 --> 01:27:30.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It did 01:27:30.730 --> 01:27:42.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: not also consider the side of the former President Rodrigo Roa Duterte with respect to the account or accounts that he singly owned and or jointly held with the Vice President, correct? 01:27:42.870 --> 01:27:43.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:27:43.890 --> 01:27:50.390 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You also did not consider the past books and other documents in possession of the respondent and her spouse. 01:27:51.350 --> 01:27:51.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Passbook, 01:27:51.890 --> 01:27:54.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: additional cash po na hindi namin 01:27:54.150 --> 01:27:54.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na-examine. 01:27:54.510 --> 01:28:03.430 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I will repeat my question, sir. You did not also consider the bank documents in possession of the respondent. 01:28:03.590 --> 01:28:04.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Lahat po ng bank documents 01:28:04.890 --> 01:28:09.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po na nasami lang. Kung meron pa po silang ibang bank document, hindi ko po alam yan. 01:28:09.510 --> 01:28:20.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Salamat po. Now, you said also, sir, in your report that you received copies of the AMLC. reports, correct? 01:28:21.220 --> 01:28:21.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But 01:28:24.830 --> 01:28:32.120 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: nowhere in the computation of the cash balances were the AMLC reports mentioned, correct? 01:28:32.880 --> 01:28:33.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It 01:28:33.520 --> 01:28:43.860 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: is because, if you agree with me, the computation of cash balance is based on actual cash flows, correct? 01:28:44.320 --> 01:28:44.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 01:28:44.960 --> 01:28:49.480 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: not merely on supposed total inflows and outflows, correct? 01:28:50.980 --> 01:28:52.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: AMLC po ba pinag-uusapan? 01:28:52.300 --> 01:28:52.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. 01:28:52.840 --> 01:28:53.320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Ah, 01:28:53.340 --> 01:28:53.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung AMLC 01:28:53.860 --> 01:28:55.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po, pag na-tag nila. 01:28:55.420 --> 01:28:55.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 01:28:55.940 --> 01:29:04.320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. But, the AMLC report was not considered in your report. Insofar as determining the net assets of the respondent is concerned. 01:29:04.620 --> 01:29:05.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, 01:29:05.460 --> 01:29:05.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. 01:29:09.000 --> 01:29:36.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, you agree with me also that the amount of, I hope you bear with me, sir, the amount of inflows of 1.1,630,351, sorry. The amount of 1,630,351,607.68 supposed inflows do not appear in your report. 01:29:37.390 --> 01:29:38.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Saan po nanggaling yung amount? 01:29:38.670 --> 01:29:39.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: AMLC po. 01:29:39.990 --> 01:29:41.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Iba po yung total nila eh. 01:29:41.730 --> 01:29:42.890 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you. Thank 01:29:42.890 --> 01:29:44.830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, 01:29:44.850 --> 01:29:51.750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. Because as you said earlier, their totals are not considered in computing the net assets of the respondent. Correct? 01:29:52.010 --> 01:29:52.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:29:52.510 --> 01:29:52.950 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. 01:29:54.560 --> 01:30:11.480 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And it's the same with the supposed outflows from the AMLC, which is... 1,308,123,526.68 pesos. The same does not appear in your forensic report. 01:30:11.540 --> 01:30:12.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:30:12.120 --> 01:30:12.780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. 01:30:19.990 --> 01:30:25.730 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, let's go to the investments portion and the insurance. 01:30:33.530 --> 01:30:47.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: As a lawyer, sir, I am sure you are aware of Section 3, RA 10607. or the insurance code. We will show the provision on screen. 01:30:49.550 --> 01:30:50.390 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Tech, please. 01:30:52.170 --> 01:30:55.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Can it be zoomed? 01:30:59.180 --> 01:31:57.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, I hope you can see that. But nevertheless, I will read the provision, sir. Section 3 of RA 10607, otherwise known as the insurance code, it says that any contingent or unknown event whether past or future which may damnify a person having an insurable interest or create a liability against him may be insured against subject to the provisions of this chapter. And then the second sentence says, the consent of the spouse is not necessary for the validity of an insurance policy taken out by a married person on his or her life or that of his children. I hope that is clear. Now, sir, based on this section, the consent of the spouse is unnecessary when the other spouse takes out an insurance policy. Correct? 01:31:58.320 --> 01:31:58.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:31:59.000 --> 01:32:10.320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you have no personal knowledge, sir, whether the vice president actually knew about the policies or insurance policies that were taken out by Manases Carpio. 01:32:10.780 --> 01:32:14.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang knowledge lang po namin is absolute community of property po. 01:32:14.120 --> 01:32:22.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. But on the actual knowledge of the Vice President as to this insurance, you have no knowledge. You have no personal information or personal knowledge about this. 01:32:22.580 --> 01:32:23.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: About ano po? 01:32:23.620 --> 01:32:28.620 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: About whether the VP has actual knowledge of this insurance policies of Mr. Carpio. 01:32:29.830 --> 01:32:31.230 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po, wala po. 01:32:31.270 --> 01:32:35.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go to the business interest, sir. 01:32:49.940 --> 01:32:52.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Page 10, sir, of the report. 01:33:08.330 --> 01:33:10.390 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Did you find it, sir? Thank you. 01:33:12.430 --> 01:33:32.740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: For the business interest under letter C, sir, you mentioned here in the first paragraph, second sentence, I hope you can follow, sir, that to accurately report the value of a business, a formal valuation exercise should be conducted. 01:33:33.240 --> 01:33:34.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:33:34.300 --> 01:34:03.930 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: However, you continued, for lack of information and material time to conduct such evaluation exercise, we were conservatively used as evaluation her interest in business and of her spouse. Now, I'll stop on that because we will tackle all of this. Now, based on this statement, sir, due to lack of material time, You did not conduct a formal valuation exercise. 01:34:04.390 --> 01:34:05.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Formal evaluation exercise. 01:34:06.030 --> 01:34:07.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala rin pong information. 01:34:07.710 --> 01:34:34.830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. And, am I correct to say, sir, that from the moment that you were furnished copies of the bank documents on September 8, after, rather, September 8, around the second week of September 8, and then up to the time that you finished your report, in October 2. Is that correct, sir? Did you finish your report in October 2? 01:34:34.930 --> 01:34:35.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: October 2. 01:34:35.430 --> 01:34:46.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, from the second week of September to October 2, you barely had two weeks to finish the forensic report, sir? Is that correct? 01:34:46.990 --> 01:34:48.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: September 2, October 2. 01:34:48.850 --> 01:34:50.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: September, second week. 01:34:50.670 --> 01:34:50.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ma, 01:34:51.730 --> 01:34:56.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: three weeks. Okay, around three weeks. We'll take that answer, sir. So, yes, 01:34:58.090 --> 01:35:08.410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. So, we will, so your forensic report, was done in a matter of around three weeks, correct? That's the complete examination of documents. 01:35:08.910 --> 01:35:17.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi lang po three weeks kasi meron pong first party po ba? Nung mga bandang June po na natanggap namin yung mga documents coming from the... 01:35:17.850 --> 01:35:20.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Those are the documents that came from the SEC, right? 01:35:21.350 --> 01:35:23.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: SEC, AMLA po. But 01:35:23.930 --> 01:35:26.190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you said earlier that... 01:35:26.190 --> 01:35:26.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Bank 01:35:26.270 --> 01:35:26.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: accounts po. 01:35:27.200 --> 01:35:27.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 01:35:27.720 --> 01:35:28.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero 01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:28.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung forensic report 01:35:28.800 --> 01:35:29.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po kasi 01:35:29.260 --> 01:35:31.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasama po yung mga SECD po ba? 01:35:31.240 --> 01:35:40.700 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. We take that. But insofar as the bank accounts are concerned, you only had three weeks to examine all of those bank accounts. Thank you, sir. 01:35:43.690 --> 01:36:04.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, in computing the supposed business interest of the VP, you focus on these two corporations. I'm talking about the business interest, sir. The GenCorp, Industries Inc., You can look at your notes. And then, Cale88 Foods Corporation, correct? 01:36:05.320 --> 01:36:06.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Metro City Chow din po. 01:36:07.200 --> 01:36:11.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I'm still on page 10, sir. 01:36:15.280 --> 01:36:16.340 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Interest in businesses. 01:36:17.000 --> 01:36:18.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ah, po. Cale po ito. 01:36:18.600 --> 01:36:28.420 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Alleged interest in businesses. Now, I'm just reading your report, sir. So, yeah. So, alleged interest in businesses. So, in computing... 01:36:28.420 --> 01:36:30.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong nakalagay na alleged sa report ko po. 01:36:31.500 --> 01:36:33.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That's our position, sir. 01:36:33.440 --> 01:36:33.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sabi niyo po 01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:35.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: you're reading my report po eh. 01:36:35.260 --> 01:36:56.780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Hindi, kanina po. So, that is our position, sir. I'm sorry. So, you consider these two corporations, the GenCorp Industries Inc. and Cal88 Foods Corporation. Now, in computing the business interest of the VP, you 01:36:58.770 --> 01:37:02.030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: considered, or the capital investments in 01:37:03.780 --> 01:37:12.240 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Gencorp. We're on Gencorp, sir. Okay. The capital investments in Gencorp, you 01:37:14.160 --> 01:37:18.320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: formulated table 15. 01:37:20.300 --> 01:37:23.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, let's go to table 15. Okay. 01:37:29.760 --> 01:37:32.360 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But before that, sir, preliminary questions. 01:37:34.010 --> 01:37:41.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The Gencorp, Gencorp was mentioned in the Vice President's 2024 and 2025 SALN. That 01:37:41.490 --> 01:37:41.990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: was 01:37:41.990 --> 01:37:42.510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: your position. 01:37:43.090 --> 01:37:43.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:37:43.730 --> 01:37:44.090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That 01:37:44.090 --> 01:37:45.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: was my observation. 01:37:45.410 --> 01:37:45.770 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. 01:37:47.700 --> 01:37:56.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But you also observed that, according to you, there was no valuation that can be found in the SALN, correct? 01:37:57.000 --> 01:37:57.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 01:37:57.840 --> 01:38:06.880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now we are showing you copies of the 2024-2025 SALN. We will not show copies of these documents. We will only show these documents to the witness. 01:38:07.760 --> 01:38:08.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now 01:38:08.200 --> 01:38:12.580 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: we are showing you copies of the 2024-2025 SALN, sir. 01:38:15.770 --> 01:38:17.530 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Let's go to page 4. 01:38:19.780 --> 01:38:23.300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Let's go to page 4 on business interest and financial connections. 01:38:27.490 --> 01:38:28.590 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: On page 4. 01:38:30.350 --> 01:38:37.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, would you agree with me that that section in the SALN does not include a column of acquisition cost of shares of stock? 01:38:37.790 --> 01:38:40.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Mag-appear po siya dapat doon sa investments po. 01:38:40.710 --> 01:38:42.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, I'm only asking with respect to that column. 01:38:42.550 --> 01:38:43.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dito po wala, pero sa kabila 01:38:43.970 --> 01:38:44.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: meron po. 01:38:44.960 --> 01:39:02.360 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: for both the years 2024 and 2025. Okay. But nonetheless, you allege in your report that the value of the respondent vice president's business interest were not reported in the SALN because of lack of valuation in that column, sir. In that portion. 01:39:02.860 --> 01:39:04.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dito po siya dapat sabi nilagay. 01:39:04.600 --> 01:39:06.780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I'm asking only about that portion. 01:39:06.780 --> 01:39:08.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dito po, wala 01:39:08.120 --> 01:39:09.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: rin 01:39:09.600 --> 01:39:10.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po nakalagay. 01:39:10.620 --> 01:39:17.380 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. So, the answer is there is no indication of cost in that particular column. Thank you, sir. 01:39:19.200 --> 01:39:33.640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, in computing the supposed business interest of the VP in GenCorp, you considered two items, sir. The first item is the supposed amount of investments per GIS. 01:39:34.180 --> 01:39:36.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The second 01:39:36.260 --> 01:40:01.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: is a derived capital contribution. When you say derived capital contributions, sir, correct me if I'm wrong or at least I have heard this also from your counsel, that derived capital is what we call also as an attributed capital, correct? Okay, attributed capital. In fact, your team came up with an attributed capital of the VP in GenCorp at 20%, correct? 01:40:02.380 --> 01:40:03.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 01:40:03.020 --> 01:40:13.810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: this 20% attribution was based on the assumption that the VP And her spouse exercised significant influence over GenCorp, correct? 01:40:14.390 --> 01:40:16.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Si VP lang po. Si 01:40:16.050 --> 01:40:16.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: VP, okay. Hindi po 01:40:16.830 --> 01:40:17.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasama yung spouse po. 01:40:17.510 --> 01:40:34.040 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Si VP, yes. VP exercised significant influence over GenCorp. And the second reason for this attribution is that the vice president owns or has equity of 20% in Metro Chao City Foods Corporation. 01:40:34.920 --> 01:40:36.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi lang po yun, pero 01:40:36.320 --> 01:40:36.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: tama 01:40:36.960 --> 01:40:38.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po kayo na part po yun. 01:40:38.740 --> 01:40:47.530 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. But that attribution or assumption was not based on any contract or document that you have examined, correct? 01:40:47.530 --> 01:40:47.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong 01:40:47.850 --> 01:40:48.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kontrata. 01:40:48.510 --> 01:40:48.790 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:40:48.790 --> 01:41:00.190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. It was not based on any deed of assignment or any subscription agreement which was made available to you for your examination, correct? 01:41:00.630 --> 01:41:01.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:41:01.450 --> 01:41:04.130 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Because nothing was made available to you for your examination. 01:41:04.890 --> 01:41:08.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Yung absence po ng document ay ebidensya rin po sa amin yan. 01:41:08.750 --> 01:41:20.690 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you. Now, despite of any written contract, deed of assignment, or subscription agreement, you still find that the VP has 20% ownership in GenCorp, correct? 01:41:21.110 --> 01:41:21.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:41:21.690 --> 01:41:22.030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 01:41:22.030 --> 01:41:24.590 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you. Now, let's go to table 15. 01:41:26.240 --> 01:41:29.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Let's refer to the paid-up capital in 01:41:32.480 --> 01:41:42.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the second column, sir. For the years 2022 to 2024, that column mentions that The VP has paid up capital of 300,000 in GenCorp, correct? 01:41:44.750 --> 01:41:45.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 01:41:47.960 --> 01:41:48.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sandali lang po. 01:41:48.720 --> 01:41:51.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But, okay, sir. Okay. Ah, 01:41:52.060 --> 01:41:53.480 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: okay. Ito po. 01:41:53.880 --> 01:41:55.040 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Is that correct, sir? 01:41:55.100 --> 01:41:55.420 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:41:55.900 --> 01:42:33.410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, before I'll ask my next question, can the witness be provided with copies of the GIS of GenCorp for 2022 to 2025? We are showing you copies of documents of, or GIS of GenCorp for this particular year, sir. Now, There is a 300,000 paid up capital under that column, sir. But for the year, I will finish until 2025. Also for the year 2025, there is a paid up capital of 262,500 pesos, sir. Correct? 01:42:34.090 --> 01:42:35.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sa GIS po? 01:42:35.290 --> 01:42:36.510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Hindi, sa table po. 01:42:37.170 --> 01:42:38.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sorry po, natakpa niya 01:42:38.570 --> 01:42:38.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 01:42:39.130 --> 01:42:39.850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sorry, sir. 01:42:40.350 --> 01:42:40.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes. 01:42:41.160 --> 01:42:44.100 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: in the table that you provided 01:42:44.520 --> 01:42:45.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes, sir. 01:42:45.060 --> 01:42:57.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: in your report. Okay. Now, that 300,000 pesos paid up capital cannot be found or the... Okay. The 2024... 01:42:57.750 --> 01:42:58.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala 01:42:58.210 --> 01:42:58.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po sa GIS. 01:42:58.850 --> 01:43:25.310 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you for answering. So, you confirm, you confirm, sir, that all of this paid up capital under the second column of table 15 of your report... cannot be found in the GIS of GenCorp. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go to the paid-up capital of Manases Carpio in GenCorp. Also, that is in the third column of Table 15. 01:43:27.940 --> 01:43:29.460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Can you find it, sir? 01:43:29.520 --> 01:43:29.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 01:43:29.860 --> 01:43:31.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po siya paid-up capital sa 01:43:31.600 --> 01:43:31.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: GenCorp. 01:43:31.860 --> 01:43:33.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It's paid-up capital by spouse. 01:43:33.740 --> 01:43:33.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: By 01:43:33.880 --> 01:43:34.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: spouse po. 01:43:34.920 --> 01:43:35.180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 01:43:35.480 --> 01:43:38.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sa, ano po ito, sa Calil 88 po yata. 01:43:38.800 --> 01:43:39.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you. 01:43:39.660 --> 01:43:39.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At saka 01:43:39.860 --> 01:43:41.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa, so 01:43:41.660 --> 01:43:43.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasama 01:43:43.100 --> 01:43:43.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yung, 01:43:44.280 --> 01:43:46.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Now, let's go to another point, sir. 01:43:51.550 --> 01:44:05.590 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Let's go to the calculated capital contribution to GenCorp. In the fourth column, calculated capital contribution to GenCorp, you indicated the amount of 35 million per year, sir. Tama 01:44:05.590 --> 01:44:05.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 01:44:06.030 --> 01:44:12.050 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Is it correct to say, sir, that it is an assigned capital? Assigned capital? 01:44:13.370 --> 01:44:14.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Assigned capital po? Yes. 01:44:14.930 --> 01:44:15.250 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: What do 01:44:15.250 --> 01:44:16.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: you mean po? Sorry po. 01:44:16.370 --> 01:44:22.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Or... Now, I'm just asking if it's correct. But it's more appropriate to say that it's an attributed capital. 01:44:22.820 --> 01:44:25.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Attributed capital po sa sensitivity analysis po 01:44:25.800 --> 01:44:26.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: namin. 01:44:26.220 --> 01:44:44.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. Now, that 35 million attributed capital was calculated on the following assumptions. Now, I hope you can follow me, sir. First assumption in your report is that GenCorp has five Jollibee branches. 01:44:45.100 --> 01:44:45.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 01:44:45.500 --> 01:44:47.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po siya assumption, nasa receipts po. 01:44:47.300 --> 01:44:58.880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay sir, okay. Based on the receipts that you attach to your report. GenCorp has five Jollibee branches and these branches are in certain center point, correct? 01:44:59.580 --> 01:45:01.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, kung ano po yung naka-appear po? 01:45:01.800 --> 01:45:15.370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Center point, I will just enumerate them. Center point, Brisa, the second branch, Bolton, the third branch, Gaysano Mall, the fourth branch, and Times Square Plaza, correct? 01:45:15.670 --> 01:45:16.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:45:16.570 --> 01:45:23.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But these receipts that were attached to your report were only provided to you by the prosecution, correct? 01:45:23.590 --> 01:45:24.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:45:24.170 --> 01:45:30.700 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you. Now, the second assumption that you made is that 01:45:33.740 --> 01:45:43.880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: GenCorp has five branches based on the official receipts that you gathered which show its corporate name. 01:45:44.360 --> 01:45:45.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:45:45.220 --> 01:46:15.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. To be clear, you did not directly inquire from GenCorp whether it is the owner of these five Jollibee branches. Okay. Then, having found those five receipts, you browsed the internet. That's the desktop research that you were referring to, sir. Correct? You browsed the internet, you went to the Jollibee website, correct? And found out the initial franchise cost, which is 35 million pesos. Correct? 01:46:15.710 --> 01:46:18.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi lang po yung ginawa namin pero ito lang po yung 01:46:18.450 --> 01:46:19.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: publicly available 01:46:19.910 --> 01:46:20.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 01:46:20.270 --> 01:46:20.650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes sir. 01:46:20.850 --> 01:46:25.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero nagtanong din po kami sa mga owners lamang wala pong evidence 01:46:25.690 --> 01:46:26.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. So 01:46:26.330 --> 01:46:26.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ito lang po yung 01:46:26.970 --> 01:46:27.550 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ginamit namin, 01:46:27.650 --> 01:46:29.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung very low figure na 35. 01:46:29.710 --> 01:46:36.670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir for that clarification. Again, your report did not say that you made a written inquiry with Jollibee Foods Corporation. 01:46:37.920 --> 01:46:39.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Made an inquiry po? 01:46:39.200 --> 01:46:40.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Oo, written inquiry po sir. 01:46:40.880 --> 01:46:41.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong 01:46:41.080 --> 01:46:41.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: written inquiry po. 01:46:41.820 --> 01:47:03.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay sir. You just relied on what was shown to you in the webpage of Jollibee. Okay, thank you, sir. Now, given the 35 million franchise cost, which you researched from the web, you now came up with a calculated capital contribution to GenCorp of 35 million each in all of the four years that were covered in the salary. 01:47:03.590 --> 01:47:06.930 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, 01:47:06.930 --> 01:47:07.070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. 01:47:14.730 --> 01:47:43.170 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And when you add... The paid up capital based on the supposed or the attributed 20% ownership in GenCorp and also the paid up capital by spouse in Cale88 and also the calculated capital contribution to GenCorp based on the franchise amount or cost of Jollibee. You came up with the paid up capital under C1, correct sir? 01:47:43.350 --> 01:47:43.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:47:43.790 --> 01:47:44.110 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:47:44.150 --> 01:48:01.290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you sir. And in so far as this paid up capital is concerned, the totals reflected therein are, in 2022, it's 35,359,375 pesos, correct? 01:48:01.590 --> 01:48:02.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama pa. 01:48:02.610 --> 01:48:09.710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: 2023, 37,109,375 pesos, correct? 01:48:10.050 --> 01:48:10.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama pa. 01:48:11.090 --> 01:48:18.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: 2024, 37,859,375,000, correct? 01:48:18.540 --> 01:48:19.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:48:19.020 --> 01:48:19.300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And then 01:48:19.300 --> 01:48:26.810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: in 2025, it's 39,321,875 pesos, correct? 01:48:27.130 --> 01:48:27.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:48:27.630 --> 01:48:36.010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, you mentioned in your report and confirmed now that you did not use any document in possession of the VP and her spouse. That is 01:48:36.010 --> 01:48:36.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: right po. 01:48:36.670 --> 01:48:43.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Am I correct in saying, sir, that... You were not able to get documents from the VP herself and her spouse. 01:48:43.460 --> 01:48:44.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is correct. 01:48:44.400 --> 01:48:50.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You were not able to get documents in their possession pertaining to GenCorp. 01:48:50.400 --> 01:48:51.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:48:51.520 --> 01:48:59.400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You do not have copies of subscription contracts or subscription agreements concerning GenCorp's shares with you. 01:48:59.580 --> 01:49:00.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 01:49:00.640 --> 01:49:10.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You were not able to examine any deeds of assignment of shares of stock involving the shares The supposed shares of the vice president in GenCorp, correct? 01:49:10.840 --> 01:49:11.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:49:11.400 --> 01:49:11.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You 01:49:11.660 --> 01:49:15.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: are not able to examine GenCorp stock and transfer book, correct? 01:49:15.080 --> 01:49:15.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:49:15.640 --> 01:49:26.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You do not have with you or your team any stock certificate or stock certificates issued by GenCorp to the respondent, Vice President Sara Duterte, correct? 01:49:26.610 --> 01:49:26.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:49:27.970 --> 01:49:31.590 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You are not able to examine GenCorp's franchise agreements too. 01:49:32.270 --> 01:49:32.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Correct. 01:49:33.490 --> 01:49:41.070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You did not make any inquiry with Jollibee Foods Corporation as to the actual franchise cost of these five Jollibee franchises in Davao. 01:49:41.250 --> 01:49:42.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Correct. And 01:49:42.310 --> 01:49:45.210 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: these franchises refer to the franchises of GenCorp. 01:49:45.410 --> 01:49:45.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Correct. 01:49:46.490 --> 01:49:57.870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You were not able to interview the independent auditor of GenCorp, correct? 01:49:58.150 --> 01:49:59.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: The one that issued the qualified opinion. 01:50:01.190 --> 01:50:03.470 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The independent auditor. You 01:50:03.470 --> 01:50:04.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: were 01:50:04.970 --> 01:50:07.650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: not able to obtain copies of her audit working papers. 01:50:08.580 --> 01:50:09.300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In 01:50:09.300 --> 01:50:20.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: short, this supposed investment in GenCorp was calculated based on the documents that were provided to you by the prosecution. 01:50:21.940 --> 01:50:22.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 01:50:22.950 --> 01:50:30.910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: based on all of those, you attributed a capital of 20% to the Vice President, Sara Duterte. 01:50:31.580 --> 01:50:32.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:50:32.360 --> 01:50:32.600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 01:50:32.620 --> 01:50:42.150 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you, sir. Now, let's go to Cale88 and the supposed advances of Manases Carpio, sir. 01:51:04.730 --> 01:51:07.570 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: On page 11, sir, of your report. 01:51:07.770 --> 01:51:08.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I'm there, po. 01:51:08.490 --> 01:51:08.970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 01:51:08.970 --> 01:51:22.130 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. Now, in computing the supposed advances of Manases Carpio and Cale88, You multiplied his supposed percentage of ownership which is 47.5% with 01:51:22.130 --> 01:51:24.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: the 01:51:24.250 --> 01:51:26.830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: total amount of advances in Cale88. 01:51:30.850 --> 01:51:41.170 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: However, you have neither seen nor examined any loan document concerning the supposed advances of Manases Carpio in Cale88. 01:51:42.400 --> 01:51:46.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dito po yung partner niya si Dr. Lebosada. Tag 47.5% 01:51:46.260 --> 01:51:47.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po siya. Yes, sir. 01:51:47.020 --> 01:52:01.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. But I'm referring to your examination of any loan document pertaining to the supposed advances of Manasas Carpio in Cale88. You did not or were not able to examine any loan document. 01:52:02.960 --> 01:52:06.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron po sa FS, wala pong loan document. Advances po yun eh. 01:52:06.540 --> 01:52:18.110 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yeah, I will go to that, sir. Not only loan document, but... Any other transaction record or records in Cale88 supporting this supposed advances? 01:52:18.570 --> 01:52:18.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:52:19.070 --> 01:52:19.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 01:52:19.270 --> 01:52:24.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. Because you have no access to the corporate records and books of accounts of Cale88. 01:52:24.270 --> 01:52:24.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Only the financial 01:52:24.850 --> 01:52:25.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: statements po. 01:52:25.790 --> 01:52:26.070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 01:52:26.070 --> 01:52:49.790 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. But despite not having seen any loan document or transaction records, or not having seen the books of accounts of Cale88, you still opine, sir, that Manases has advances to Cale88 totaling, I will enumerate, sir, in 2022, 8.7 million, correct? 01:52:51.980 --> 01:53:00.840 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: According to your report. In 2022, 8.7 million. In 2023, 9.5 million, sir. 01:53:01.040 --> 01:53:01.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In 01:53:01.760 --> 01:53:20.420 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: 2024, 11.1 million, and in 2025, 9.5 million, sir. Then, based on all of these methodologies that you have employed or employed by your team, you came up with a summary of undeclared properties in table 17. 01:53:23.720 --> 01:53:25.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That's on page 12, sir. Correct? 01:53:26.340 --> 01:53:26.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:53:26.980 --> 01:53:27.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 01:53:30.930 --> 01:53:35.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You then opined that out of the total properties of the respondent VP, 01:53:37.950 --> 01:53:41.330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Only 20% were declared by her, correct? 01:53:41.650 --> 01:53:43.190 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: On average po, sa SALN po. 01:53:43.490 --> 01:53:43.930 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 01:53:43.970 --> 01:53:48.670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. That is and that was based on the methodologies that you employed. 01:53:49.330 --> 01:53:49.930 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. 01:54:06.260 --> 01:54:09.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. I hope you're still okay, sir. You can drink more. 01:54:09.520 --> 01:54:09.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sobrang 01:54:09.860 --> 01:54:10.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: okay po. 01:54:10.340 --> 01:54:14.060 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. Let's go to the undeclared income, sir. 01:54:20.530 --> 01:54:22.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Reference, what page is that, Attorney Kristine? 01:54:23.170 --> 01:54:23.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In 01:54:23.610 --> 01:54:24.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the report? 01:54:25.200 --> 01:54:27.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: On page 15, Your Honor. 01:54:27.420 --> 01:54:27.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes. 01:54:29.260 --> 01:54:30.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: May I proceed? 01:54:30.680 --> 01:54:31.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 01:54:31.400 --> 01:54:39.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Undeclared income. Let's go to, sorry, we will go further. Table 23, sir. 01:54:41.170 --> 01:54:42.150 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Third column. 01:54:43.570 --> 01:54:53.570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For your easy reference, Attorney Kristine, let's try to break for lunch at 12. So you try to manage it a bit. Where you'll end. 01:54:55.200 --> 01:54:57.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: para mabilang natin na exacto na dalawang oras ka na. 01:54:57.800 --> 01:54:58.030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your 01:54:58.030 --> 01:54:58.370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Honor. 01:54:59.430 --> 01:55:01.750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Actually, we can pause here, Your Honor. 01:55:01.850 --> 01:55:04.670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi, para nga mabilang natin yung eksaktong dalawang oras ka na nakatayo diyan. 01:55:04.750 --> 01:55:08.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Gawin mo ng 12 para eksakto, tapos nagsimula ka ulit ng 1, tapos hanggang kung anong oras man. 01:55:09.730 --> 01:55:10.130 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 01:55:10.170 --> 01:55:11.330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor. We will comply. 01:55:13.400 --> 01:55:24.200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, let's go to page 17, Sir. Page 17 on Table 23, Sir. I hope you have found it already. 01:55:25.750 --> 01:55:26.390 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, 01:55:26.850 --> 01:55:37.300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: sir. On the third column, sir, that column, sir, says identified bank inflows, correct? 01:55:37.880 --> 01:55:38.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:55:38.740 --> 01:55:47.920 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Under that column, sir, the amounts that you provided therein, sir, 01:55:51.770 --> 01:55:56.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Do you agree with me, sir, that you do not actually know the nature and sources of these inflows? 01:55:56.450 --> 01:55:58.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sources po ng inflow. 01:55:58.210 --> 01:56:00.110 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Nature of these inflows. 01:56:00.230 --> 01:56:02.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: They're deposits po in cash. 01:56:02.710 --> 01:56:05.870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But the sources of these inflows, you have no personal knowledge. 01:56:05.950 --> 01:56:05.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I 01:56:05.970 --> 01:56:06.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: have no 01:56:06.050 --> 01:56:09.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: personal knowledge on the persons who deposited these inflows. 01:56:10.070 --> 01:56:24.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. On several check payments with blackout names, let's go to page 18, sir. On table 24. I hope you already saw that. 01:56:24.820 --> 01:56:25.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes po. 01:56:25.960 --> 01:56:32.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, was your team authorized to block them out? Remove the cover? Was it your team who did that? 01:56:32.940 --> 01:56:33.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: No, no. 01:56:33.160 --> 01:56:33.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: We 01:56:33.440 --> 01:56:35.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: received it that way po. 01:56:35.200 --> 01:56:36.660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay sir, thank you sir for that clarification. 01:56:38.440 --> 01:56:44.700 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, in account number ending 2743, 01:56:48.220 --> 01:56:51.160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: under... Video 01:56:53.340 --> 01:56:55.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: account checking po ni Mans po. 01:56:55.760 --> 01:57:04.940 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You already answered my question, sir. Okay. That account, sir, ending 2743, sir, do not belong to the respondent. 01:57:04.960 --> 01:57:05.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 01:57:05.140 --> 01:57:05.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 01:57:05.440 --> 01:57:10.880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: As you had already mentioned. Now, let's go to this Lourdes Lebosada. 01:57:12.730 --> 01:57:22.480 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: On page 18, item number 2. Okay, you said that this Lourdes Lebosada was the dentist of the vice president. 01:57:22.700 --> 01:57:23.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:57:23.120 --> 01:57:36.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Correct? And... You appended her photo and the photo of the vice president, correct? And this Lourdes is also the payee of the check amounting to 11.35 million, correct? 01:57:37.180 --> 01:57:37.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:57:39.500 --> 01:57:41.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Amounting, Aggregating po. Marami pong cheque po yan. 01:57:41.580 --> 01:57:50.500 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. And even last Friday, you commented, hindi naman yata ito bayad sa pasta. Something along those lines. 01:57:50.520 --> 01:57:50.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pasensya 01:57:50.820 --> 01:57:52.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na po. Nagtatanggal lang po ng pagod. 01:57:53.100 --> 01:58:00.680 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It's okay, sir. but actually you do not have personal knowledge on the purpose of such payment or payments as you said. 01:58:00.680 --> 01:58:01.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That is correct po. 01:58:01.860 --> 01:58:11.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you sir whether uh those payments were for payment for obligations purchase of property you do not actually know the purpose of those 01:58:11.960 --> 01:58:12.080 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: payments. 01:58:12.080 --> 01:58:12.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:58:12.580 --> 01:58:21.390 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you sir. The same is true with respect to the rest of the payees uh under letter b to F, sir. 01:58:21.630 --> 01:58:25.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. Hindi po namin ito ilalagay dito kung hindi po blinock out. Kaya lang po namin 01:58:25.710 --> 01:58:25.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ilalagay dito. 01:58:25.790 --> 01:58:33.390 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. But you do not have personal knowledge as to the purposes of the issuances of checks to these people. 01:58:33.730 --> 01:58:33.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 01:58:33.870 --> 01:58:34.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. 01:58:42.160 --> 01:58:44.980 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, sir, let's go to item 3. 01:58:46.490 --> 01:59:05.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Item 3 on page 9. Disopposed security bank account number 0392. I will not. Okay, that's the beginning. Those are the beginning digits. Now, you do not have personal knowledge on the reasons of the fund transfers under this paragraph, sir. 01:59:06.780 --> 01:59:07.420 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 01:59:07.580 --> 01:59:08.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Although, 01:59:08.260 --> 01:59:10.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: partner niya po yung... 01:59:10.200 --> 01:59:13.840 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. But the reason for the fund transfers, you do not know those, sir? 01:59:14.100 --> 01:59:14.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 01:59:14.840 --> 01:59:15.720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Thank you, sir. 01:59:19.990 --> 01:59:53.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, let's go, sir, to tinikling. Number four, item four. This is the alleged. kiting of checks under item 4, sir. I think I already got the answer earlier that you know also that this is the account of the former president with the vice president, Sara Duterte. Now, sir, on this item, sir, are you aware that none of the MC application forms were signed by the vice president? 01:59:54.020 --> 01:59:54.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I am 01:59:54.140 --> 01:59:54.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: aware, po. 01:59:54.700 --> 01:59:57.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you, sir. And you confirm that now, sir? 01:59:57.960 --> 01:59:58.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 01:59:58.180 --> 01:59:58.820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. 02:00:01.650 --> 02:00:12.330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Are you aware also, sir, that this account was held by the former President Rodrigo Duterte either singly or jointly with the Vice President? 02:00:12.590 --> 02:00:12.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 02:00:13.130 --> 02:00:13.790 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. 02:00:15.980 --> 02:00:21.300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In any case, sir, you do not know the purpose of the purchase of these MCs, correct? 02:00:22.990 --> 02:00:23.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: The purpose po? 02:00:24.090 --> 02:00:25.710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. You do not know. 02:00:26.550 --> 02:00:27.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: The purchase of 02:00:27.750 --> 02:00:28.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: the MC po? 02:00:28.410 --> 02:00:32.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. You do not have personal knowledge as to the purpose of the purchase of these MCs. 02:00:34.860 --> 02:00:36.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: We can only observe. 02:00:36.380 --> 02:00:36.760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes sir. 02:00:36.960 --> 02:00:37.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At nakikita po doon 02:00:37.860 --> 02:00:38.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa observation namin. 02:00:38.820 --> 02:00:43.540 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: But the answer is, sorry, I have to stop you right there sir. The answer is yes, you do not have personal knowledge. 02:00:43.540 --> 02:00:47.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Personal knowledge, the state of mind po is shown by the actions po. 02:00:47.140 --> 02:00:56.770 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Anyway, I'll move on sir. Now with respect to the credit card records, let's go to page 20 sir. 02:01:03.130 --> 02:01:17.530 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Page 20, sir. Actually, you referred to the 256,882.5 Nike Pavilion KL Kuala Lumpur purchase, which you mentioned last Friday, of course. 02:01:17.590 --> 02:01:18.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 02:01:18.270 --> 02:01:23.810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. Now, sir, are you aware that this credit card belongs to Manases Carpio, sir? 02:01:23.950 --> 02:01:24.550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And 02:01:24.550 --> 02:01:37.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: are you aware that... The purchases that were made therein was for the purpose of providing sports apparel and other items to the basketball team of his son. Are you aware of that? 02:01:37.290 --> 02:01:37.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not aware 02:01:37.690 --> 02:01:37.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 02:01:38.030 --> 02:01:38.310 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank 02:01:38.310 --> 02:01:50.020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, sir. Let's go also, sir, to the Ginzat Inakaya Tokyo expenses. That was also referred to you, referred by you in your testimony last Friday, sir. 02:01:52.410 --> 02:02:08.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Are you aware, sir, that this expense or these expenses pertain to expenses incurred of a large group with Manases Carpio while he was traveling with this companion. 02:02:08.780 --> 02:02:09.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I assume po it's a 02:02:09.500 --> 02:02:10.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: large group. 02:02:10.060 --> 02:02:11.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po kayang kainin na isang tao to eh. 02:02:11.940 --> 02:02:26.860 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And because, are you aware that the reason, are you aware that the reason for this is that the members of this group have no available Japanese yen with them. That's why they had to use the credit card of Manases Carpio. You're aware of that, sir? 02:02:27.600 --> 02:02:29.420 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I don't, I'm not aware 02:02:29.420 --> 02:02:29.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 02:02:29.760 --> 02:02:30.220 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, 02:02:30.280 --> 02:02:34.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: thank you. Thank you, sir. You're not, so that is yes. 02:02:36.400 --> 02:02:50.590 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, sir, in computing the alleged undeclared income of the spouses, you pierced the veil of corporate fiction of Metro City Chow and GenCorp. 02:02:50.770 --> 02:02:53.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. And Cale88 po. 02:02:54.010 --> 02:03:09.490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. Of course. That is also in your report. So, these four corporations, sorry, three corporations, separate juridical entities were pierced. 02:03:11.090 --> 02:03:26.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And when we say pierced, sir, when we say pierced, piercing the veil, you are setting aside the separate juridical personalities of these three corporations, correct? Because of an alleged fraud. 02:03:26.960 --> 02:03:28.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po siya alleged eh. 02:03:28.820 --> 02:03:34.900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: because of your supposed findings. Your supposed finding of fraud. 02:03:36.460 --> 02:03:38.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Findings from the numbers po. 02:03:38.500 --> 02:03:42.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, that is based on your assessment. Your opinion, sir. 02:03:42.500 --> 02:03:42.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: May 02:03:42.580 --> 02:03:45.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: observation po, hindi po siya. Observation. 02:03:45.340 --> 02:03:49.560 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Observation niyo po. We will take that answer. Now, 02:03:52.340 --> 02:04:05.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: without declaration of dividends, because you pierced the veil already of the three corporate entities, you imputed 20% alleged income in the case of GenCorp. 02:04:06.480 --> 02:04:07.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Using the equity balances. 02:04:08.100 --> 02:04:10.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, sir. The one that you identified earlier. 02:04:10.620 --> 02:04:11.140 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 02:04:11.960 --> 02:04:24.260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Representing the alleged share of the respondent in the income of GENCORP as well as Metro City. Because Metro City, she has a 20% equity based on your analysis. 02:04:24.530 --> 02:04:24.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 02:04:25.100 --> 02:04:52.030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. And, all of these attributions was because of the supposed fraud that, uh... Based on your own assessment, sir. Based on your own assessment, there was an alleged or supposed fraud that were perpetrated by the respondent using the separate juridical entities. Sir, that's why you pierced the veil of corporate fiction. 02:04:52.530 --> 02:04:55.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po siya supposed fraud. Non-reporting po siya. 02:04:55.630 --> 02:04:58.610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In your case, that is your findings. That is your opinion. 02:04:58.610 --> 02:04:58.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po. 02:04:58.910 --> 02:04:59.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron po akong testigo eh. 02:05:00.790 --> 02:05:01.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Anyway. 02:05:03.630 --> 02:05:13.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You also mentioned the tax code, sir. In explaining the piercing the veil, you also referred to the tax code, sir. 02:05:13.560 --> 02:05:13.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 02:05:14.000 --> 02:05:22.100 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Where a supposed under declaration in sales of more than 30% gives a prima facie presumption of fraud. Is that correct? 02:05:22.380 --> 02:05:22.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 02:05:23.460 --> 02:05:39.440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now, but you are aware, sir, that the National Investigation Division In so far as its audit of the books of accounts and records of the Vice President and Mr. Manases Carpio, has not in any way came up with any findings of fraud? 02:05:39.680 --> 02:05:41.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Baka hindi po nila alam yung bank accounts pa. 02:05:41.860 --> 02:05:51.520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Hindi pa nila alam. But are you aware, sir, that the spouses Carpio are being audited by the NID? 02:05:53.200 --> 02:05:54.800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: National Investigation Division? 02:05:55.080 --> 02:05:55.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I 02:05:55.100 --> 02:05:55.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: think po. 02:05:55.220 --> 02:06:05.960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, sir. No case for tax evasion or fraud has been filed against the spouses Carpio by the BIR before the DOJ. Are you aware of that? 02:06:06.280 --> 02:06:07.420 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Baka not yet po. 02:06:07.600 --> 02:06:09.180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Not yet. Okay. You're not aware? 02:06:09.460 --> 02:06:10.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not aware po. 02:06:10.260 --> 02:06:10.560 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. 02:06:10.600 --> 02:06:19.860 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: No criminal case for tax evasion or fraud was filed individually against the spouses Carpio before any court in the Philippines. 02:06:19.920 --> 02:06:20.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 02:06:20.020 --> 02:06:20.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 02:06:20.400 --> 02:06:29.410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Finally, you agree with me that it is only the court? Who can affirm or dismiss any finding of tax evasion or fraud? 02:06:29.630 --> 02:06:30.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 02:06:30.510 --> 02:06:40.810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you are not aware of any judgment that was rendered against the spouse of Scorpio for any crime involving tax evasion and fraud, correct? 02:06:40.810 --> 02:06:41.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 02:06:41.130 --> 02:06:41.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 02:06:41.590 --> 02:06:42.150 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, 02:06:45.640 --> 02:06:51.000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sir, Your Honor, I think this is a good time to have a lunch break. 02:06:52.490 --> 02:06:54.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's 12 o'clock. It is a good time. 02:06:57.120 --> 02:07:08.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We shall break for lunch. You've been at it for 2 hours and 1 minute, so you deserve a rest. We shall break for lunch and we shall resume at 1pm. 02:07:09.750 --> 02:07:10.730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Trial is in recess. 03:08:03.090 --> 03:08:03.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Apologies 03:08:03.830 --> 03:08:11.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: for the two-minute delay as the Clerk of Court was on his way from his office. 03:08:14.450 --> 03:08:17.950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly situate Atty. Cabrera to the witness stand. 03:08:31.730 --> 03:08:33.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nakakain kayo, Atty. Cabrera? 03:08:37.120 --> 03:08:39.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Presiding Officer, idol ko po si Atty. Ronel. 03:08:40.300 --> 03:08:41.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi ka rin kumain? 03:08:41.840 --> 03:08:44.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo, natutunan rin po akong intermittent fasting. 03:08:45.210 --> 03:08:54.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good for you. Am, naunawa niyo po na patuloy kayo magiging bagay ng inyong testimonyas ang ayon sa naunan niyong pinanumpaan nung nakaraang biyernes. 03:08:54.570 --> 03:08:55.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 03:08:55.530 --> 03:08:59.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Salamat po. You may continue with your cross when you're ready, Atty. Kristine. 03:08:59.410 --> 03:09:01.830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. Good afternoon, sir. 03:09:02.070 --> 03:09:02.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Good 03:09:02.150 --> 03:09:02.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: afternoon, po. 03:09:02.990 --> 03:09:04.310 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Just few more questions. 03:09:06.350 --> 03:09:06.830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In 03:09:06.830 --> 03:09:13.450 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: your CV, sir, you mentioned several times your professional affiliation with PWC, correct? 03:09:14.070 --> 03:09:14.550 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 03:09:14.840 --> 03:09:20.280 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you sir. And you retired from PWC in 2025. Correct? 03:09:22.040 --> 03:09:25.340 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: PWC was not engaged for the purpose of this investigation. 03:09:26.920 --> 03:09:31.940 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: PWC did not review, approve, or authorize your report. Correct? 03:09:31.960 --> 03:09:32.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Tama po. 03:09:33.580 --> 03:09:37.340 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: PWC did not also authorize your testimony today sir. Thank 03:09:37.340 --> 03:09:38.180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you. 03:09:38.380 --> 03:09:44.890 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In so far as this case is concerned, You are not authorized to speak on behalf of PWC, correct? 03:09:44.910 --> 03:09:45.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 03:09:45.030 --> 03:09:45.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 03:09:45.630 --> 03:09:58.230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, when you reference PWC experience in your CV, this court should understand, sir, that your report has no PWC quality control, review, or endorsement. 03:09:58.350 --> 03:09:59.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sobrang tama po. 03:09:59.410 --> 03:10:01.830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, sir. No further questions, Your Honor. 03:10:06.710 --> 03:10:09.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Any redirect, Honorable Diokno? 03:10:10.050 --> 03:10:11.310 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: No redirect, Your Honor. 03:10:12.800 --> 03:10:23.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair declares a brief recess so that we can get the list of Senator, Judges. Binigla kasi kami ni Atty. Gracie. Nakala ko hanggang mamaya pa kayo. Hindi ko munahinig. Chair declares a five-minute recess to get the list of the 03:10:23.960 --> 03:10:25.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: interjections from Senator, Judges. 03:11:38.960 --> 03:11:41.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The first to register to make 03:11:41.780 --> 03:11:42.460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is... 03:11:44.290 --> 03:11:47.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Forgive 03:11:49.380 --> 03:11:51.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: me, 03:11:53.180 --> 03:11:57.590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the first two registrants aren't here so... Yes, there we go. 03:12:01.240 --> 03:12:05.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Second to register is Senator Judge Rafi Tulfo. 03:12:06.640 --> 03:12:19.560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Prior to him was supposedly Senator Joel, but I think he's indisposed right now. So, the chair recognizes Senator Judge Rafi Tulfo for his interjections. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes when you're ready. 03:12:32.060 --> 03:12:34.960 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mr. Witness, expert kayo pagdating sa taxation. 03:12:36.440 --> 03:12:37.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 03:12:38.170 --> 03:12:56.340 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Now, gusto ko na magkaroon ng konting enlightenment pagdating sa money laundering. Kasi may mga napapanood akong mga documentary na kung saan na-involve yung mga Cosa Nostra, how they laundered money, correct me if I'm wrong. 03:12:58.060 --> 03:13:14.520 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Yung kanilang dirty money, ini-invest nila sa isang legitimate business and then nagbabayad sila ng tamang buwis. At bila sila maimbestigahan ng tax evasion because the ultimate goal is to pay taxes. 03:13:16.200 --> 03:13:22.740 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Using front yung legitimate business, so when it comes out, malinis na. Am I right? 03:13:23.340 --> 03:13:24.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po yan. 03:13:24.640 --> 03:13:35.040 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Now, anong mga bansa ang alam mo na kung saan high risk sila pagdating sa money laundering? 03:13:37.560 --> 03:13:40.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Mga bansa pong... Well, 03:13:40.420 --> 03:13:45.120 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: dito, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Tajikistan, South Africa, Ukraine. 03:13:45.520 --> 03:13:46.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Philippines po. 03:13:47.340 --> 03:13:48.220 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: and Philippines as well. 03:13:49.130 --> 03:13:49.570 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Now, 03:13:50.400 --> 03:13:53.640 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: let's talk about Cale88. 03:13:56.160 --> 03:14:18.320 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: They're supposed to be an importer dun sa mga bansa na nabanggit ko ng mga banana chips. Nag-check pa ko sa Bureau of Customs kung sila ba ay meron mga importation documents dun sa mga bansa na iyon na sila ay nagpalabas ng mga produkto nila and then do they have Yung accounts payable nila, accounts receivable, have you examined them? 03:14:20.260 --> 03:14:23.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung sa pangalawang tanong na lang po muna. 03:14:24.340 --> 03:14:24.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung 03:14:24.900 --> 03:14:38.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa financial statements po kasi ng Cale88, marami po talagang wala po sa tamang hulog po sa financial statement na yun. Wala po siyang payable, wala po siyang receivable. 03:14:40.180 --> 03:14:44.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Manufacturer siya o exporter siya ng manufactured goods, wala po siyang 03:14:45.840 --> 03:15:14.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Inventory ng raw materials or work in process. At kahit po gaano kalaki po yung perang pumapasok at lumalabas, nananatili po siyang lugi. Maliit lang po yung kanyang property, plant, and equipment. Kung nagpapatol man siya ay wala pong nakalagay na tolling or manufacturing arrangements po sa disclosure niya po sa kanyang notes. 03:15:16.610 --> 03:15:32.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Marami pa pong iba eh. Kasi po yung the way po yung ano na nakakaduda po talaga doon, exporter ka para mangyari yung wala kang receivable, abay pag landing ng goods mo doon eh, nakatanggap ka ng cash. 03:15:33.080 --> 03:15:33.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron 03:15:33.600 --> 03:15:56.950 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kang supply chain, malalaki yung maliwa o yung mga in-order mo sa supply chain mo. Ang ibig sabihin ay pag tanggap mo ng produkto, parang bumubunot ka ng pitaka mo at binabayaran mo ng cash. So yung nakikita po namin sa Cale88, hindi po tinikling. Tatawagin kong revolving door. Pagpasok po ng pera, lumalabas po. Marami pong pera ang 03:15:56.950 --> 03:16:21.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pasok at labas. Yung sa una niyo pong tanong sa customs po, kinanong ko po yun sa prosecution. Pero hindi ko na po nasundan kung ano po yung kasagutan doon dahil gusto nga po kung nga po sanang malaman kung meron talagang tunay na inventory na lumalabas. Pero isa po yun sa mga tinanong ko rin po. 03:16:21.320 --> 03:17:05.420 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, you did mention about manufacturing materials. So, doon sa records ng Cale88, kumikita sila by the hands of millions dahil yun ay nanggagaling doon sa pag... E-export nila ng potato chips o banana chips, excuse me. Tumutugma ba yan doon sa kagamitan na ginagamit nila sa pag-manufacture ng banana chips? Na-investigahan niyo ba kung gaano kalaki itong kumpanyang ito? Yung ba'y bumabanga sa amount na na-manufacture nila at bumabalik na pera versus doon sa electric bills nila, binabayaran nilang utility bills doon sa kumpanya or factory nila na... Pinagagalingan ng Cale88 products. 03:17:05.660 --> 03:17:52.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, yung kanila pong cost of sales, parang meron po silang tinatarget na cost of sales para po hindi po masyadong malaki yung income nila. Pero yung ginawa po namin, binangga po namin siya sa mga lima o anim na mga exporter na kumpanya na ganyan po kalaki yung mga meron pong 200 million na annual revenue. Ang nakita po namin dito sa mga kumpanyang ito, malaki po yung kanilang Property Planting Equipment. Masyado pong maliit po yun sa Cale88 kung i-cocompare po. Meron po silang mga, yung iba po may land, pero meron po silang buildings. So wala pong ganun yung Cale88 po or improvements po. Marami po silang inventory on raw materials. 03:17:54.460 --> 03:18:33.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi natural po yun kung manufactured po kayo dapat meron kayo laging. Nakaredy na raw materials. Malaki po ang kanilang receivable at malaki po ang kanilang payable. At malalaki po rin yung maganda rin po yung kita nila sa bottom line po sa negosyo nila. So yun po yung kaya po nasabi namin na talaga pong pagka gumamit po kayo ng transfer pricing, well, comparable transactions po. dun nyo po makikita na at comparable po itong mga companies ito kasi po pareho po ng negosyo at exporter po kaya dun nyo po makikita na kakaiba 03:18:33.080 --> 03:18:34.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yung Cale88. 03:18:34.220 --> 03:18:40.300 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay good. Now sabi nyo po nag-check kayo sa Bureau of Customs so na-check nyo ba yung records ng Cale88? 03:18:40.580 --> 03:18:43.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sorry po. I did not. Honorable Senator. 03:18:43.340 --> 03:18:45.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sorry sorry sorry. Tinanong ko lang po sa prosecution. 03:18:45.860 --> 03:18:46.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Correction. 03:18:46.440 --> 03:18:52.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero wala pong malinaw na result po. 03:18:52.590 --> 03:18:56.190 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, siguro I can ask the prosecution, is it okay? 03:19:01.820 --> 03:19:28.900 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sir, nag-check ko ba kayo sa Bureau of Customs para matignan yung amount of exported products nila going to, say, Tasiktan, going to Tajikistan, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, yung amount of product exported versus Amount of money that comes in, bumabangga ho ba? 03:19:29.800 --> 03:19:39.220 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Wala na po kaming oras na tingnan po yan. That's really something that I think should be further investigated. Pero hindi na po namin nakuha yung datos na yun. 03:19:39.460 --> 03:19:44.160 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Maraming salamat po. Thank you po, Mr. Witness. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 03:19:45.190 --> 03:19:50.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We go back to the first registrant, Senator Judge Villanueva. 03:19:53.130 --> 03:19:54.670 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 03:19:54.930 --> 03:19:55.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For 03:19:55.130 --> 03:20:08.810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the information of our colleagues, share is giving you a variable period of two minutes, given the importance of the witness. So we'll be a bit flexible as long as you don't do it too much. 03:20:09.700 --> 03:20:12.040 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Happy birthday, Mr. Presiding Officer. 03:20:12.880 --> 03:20:24.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Apologies to Senator Judge Tulfo. After round two, if you will avail of round two, it applies to you still. Apologies again. Senator Judge Villanueva. 03:20:25.700 --> 03:20:28.520 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Senator Lapid wanted more, Mr. President. 03:20:30.420 --> 03:20:49.540 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Mr. Witness, before I start, I'd like to say that kayo yung pinaka-interesting na witness na ipinresenta ng prosecution. In fact, I think you're the most important sa pagdinig na ito so far. And your report, it is... 03:20:51.590 --> 03:21:33.520 Sen. Joel Villanueva: in-depth study and it is our job to scrutinize and examine itong inyong report to look into your competency and integrity and of course to convince us na tama po itong mga reports na ito. Let me ask some clarificatory questions, Your Honor. Atty. Cabrera, doon po sa Annex A ng BIR reply, ang total net taxable income ay kasama na po yung personal income ng vice president. Combined na po siya sa kanilang mag-asawa. Pero pag tinignan niyo po itong table 23, table 23, ayan po, pina-flash siya screen. 03:21:35.370 --> 03:21:48.730 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Mula o 2023 hanggang 2025 mukhang nadagdag muli ang exactong personal income ng respondent. So ang question ko po, hindi po ba ito double counting, your honor, sir? 03:21:49.770 --> 03:21:50.530 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 03:21:52.100 --> 03:22:03.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: tama po ko ng pagkakaintindi po dyan, ang epekto po ng schedule na yan ay kulang po yung report namin ng 14 million po. 03:22:03.740 --> 03:22:05.920 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Exactly. So kung nag 03:22:05.920 --> 03:22:06.260 Sen. Joel Villanueva: -double 03:22:06.260 --> 03:22:07.760 Sen. Joel Villanueva: po, 14 03:22:07.760 --> 03:22:12.680 Sen. Joel Villanueva: ,369,692 po yung sobrang bilang. 03:22:14.080 --> 03:22:16.420 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Namin po sa declared niya. 03:22:17.260 --> 03:22:46.540 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Kasi pag tinignan niyo po ito, itong BIR, taxable income, tsaka yung forensic report, pagka tinignan niyo po yung excess noong 2023, 2024, and 2025, yun ho yung difference eh. So kung wala hong difference, ano pong income item o tax record ang magpapaliwanag sa magkapareho pong halaga? 03:22:47.790 --> 03:23:14.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: As a bilang patutuo po dyan, kung ako po ititake ko na lang po yun sa BIR po. Kasi po ay nangyari po yata dito sa report namin, merong compensation, tapos meron pong compensation and business. Mukhang nabilang po namin yung compensation tsaka compensation and business. So parang nagdalawa po yung, 03:23:14.390 --> 03:23:15.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasi 03:23:15.370 --> 03:23:38.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yung Parang naninimbang po yata yung mga kasama po namin na baka naman nakakatanggap din siya ng compensation. Pero nung inaanalyze ko po parang hindi naman ito makakasama, makakabuti naman ito sa kanila so idagdag na lang natin. So yung pong figure namin eh hindi po nakakasama po yan kay VP Sara. 03:23:38.340 --> 03:24:17.900 Sen. Joel Villanueva: That's what I wanted to look into. Despite of this, 2023, 4 million yung Salary sa VP and probably business income, professional income. Pag dinagdag niyo kasi saktong-sakto po yung 14 million. And I wanted to ask this because a repeated addition of the respondent's own income would change the report's comparison. So yun yung tatanong ko po sa inyo. Nakaka-apekto po, bagaano kalaki yung epekto kung ito nga po nasama po? 03:24:17.980 --> 03:24:26.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kulang po yung, kung sobra po yung bilang namin, yung 817 po, plus 14 po. 03:24:27.200 --> 03:24:28.340 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Plus 14? 03:24:28.680 --> 03:24:28.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 03:24:29.430 --> 03:24:32.230 Sen. Joel Villanueva: But you mean to say, hindi ko nakaka-apekto? 03:24:33.880 --> 03:24:36.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede pong magsalita po tungkol 03:24:36.140 --> 03:24:36.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: dito. 03:24:36.180 --> 03:24:39.840 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Sure, sure, sure. I wanted to understand. As a senator-judge, that's our 03:24:39.840 --> 03:24:46.520 Sen. Joel Villanueva: duty. We wanted to make sure na naiintindihan namin na kung meron nga hong ganito, ano ba yung effect nito? 03:24:47.000 --> 03:26:13.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So ito po medyo figures po na trinit po namin conservatively in favor po ni VP Sara. Pero yung point lang po kasi sa isang forensic report, at maaaring may makita tayong mga maliliit po na o hindi masyadong natignan to o maliliit po na ganyan. Yung tunay po kasing forensic study, para po yung walang katapusan, para po yung infinite eh. Kasi po pag pinuprove po natin yung hypothesis, meron pong, eto pa lang, sapat na, na-prove na yung hypothesis and kulang din po yung araw namin, okay na, proven na. Pero yung tunay po, huhukayin pa po yan eh. Kasi po, baka meron pa po halimbawa mga Hindi naka-declare na property. Wala po dyan. Hindi po naisama ng mga branches po ng Jollibee o Chowking kung meron man po. Wala pa po dyan. Pero it doesn't affect the effectiveness of the proof of that hypothesis na marami na pong undeclared at marami na pong manifestly disproportionate na po yung property versus her income. So kami naman po dito ay inisip na lang namin na Ay di dagdag mo na lang sa income niyang na-declare. Mabawasan man yung report natin. At least hindi naman tayo, kumbaga eh, we're erring on the side of conservatism po. 03:26:13.610 --> 03:26:22.860 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And in this particular slide, hindi ko kasama dyan yung mga inflows, outflows, bank accounts. Hindi ko kasama dyan. 03:26:23.380 --> 03:26:24.020 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Kaya 03:26:24.020 --> 03:26:32.420 Sen. Joel Villanueva: tinanong ko yun, will it affect the bigger picture? Let me go to another point. Again, I'm just doing my job as a senator judge. 03:26:34.350 --> 03:27:58.230 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Sa sarili nyo pong report, parehong corporate income ang pinag-uusapan dito sa wealth table, table 39, at tax table, table 41. Pero magkaiba po yung totals. Just to show you, and again, I just wanted to be clarified on this. Alin po yung tama dito at alin nang sa pananaw po namin bilang mga senator judges, ano po yung dapat naming tignan. Kasi pag tinignan niyo po, if we can show these two tables, table 39 and table 41. You look at 2022, 3,790,000 sa table 41. million, 193. Sa table 23, 70 million, 503, naging 72 million. So, merong 2 million, merong 1 million, may 2 million increase, may 1 million na decrease. And again, ang sa atin lang, we wanted to make sure na yung mismatch po ba dito sa Cale88, Metro, and GenCorp columns, gusto natin maintindihan yung When you talk about a corporate estimate and how it becomes a personal finding po, your honor. 03:28:01.310 --> 03:28:04.290 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ano po yung tanong? Pakilata. 03:28:04.290 --> 03:28:04.510 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Gusto 03:28:04.510 --> 03:28:28.520 Sen. Joel Villanueva: kong maintindihan, your honor, yung ito nga o, dalawa pero magkaiba po. Table 39 tsaka table 41. Magkaiba po yung 2022 tsaka 2023. Gusto ko malaman at kung po pwede po mailatag po ninyo yung adjustment per year. Lalo na po kung magkaiba pala ang tax base o coverage nito, Your Honor. 03:28:29.020 --> 03:28:32.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sige po. Titignan ko po sandali, 39 pa. 03:28:53.700 --> 03:28:56.940 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Particularly the two years, 2022 and 2023. 03:29:00.160 --> 03:29:01.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tsaka table 41. 03:29:03.300 --> 03:29:04.100 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Opo. 03:29:22.630 --> 03:29:22.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: May 03:29:22.990 --> 03:29:24.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Metro City po doon sa isa. 03:29:24.490 --> 03:29:33.050 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Opo. Pali ano po yan eh, Metro City, Cale88, tsaka GenCorp. Na it's supposed to be the same. Pero pagdating yung 03:29:33.050 --> 03:29:33.450 Sen. Joel Villanueva: 2022 03:29:33.450 --> 03:29:34.090 Sen. Joel Villanueva: and 2023, 03:29:34.190 --> 03:29:36.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nakahiwalay po yung GenCorp. 03:29:37.330 --> 03:29:38.750 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Saan po nakahiwalay, sir? 03:29:38.890 --> 03:29:41.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi, nakahiwalay pong column yung sa GenCorp. 03:29:41.070 --> 03:29:41.850 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Oo, nakahiwalay. 03:29:41.910 --> 03:29:42.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 03:29:44.710 --> 03:29:45.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Undeclared income section. 03:29:47.220 --> 03:29:56.420 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Again, just to clarify, if there's an explanation to this, meron po bang... Working paper na sumusuporta 03:29:56.420 --> 03:29:56.900 Sen. Joel Villanueva: rin po. 03:29:56.960 --> 03:29:59.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ba't magkaibahan mo po? Medyo hindi ko lang po ma-identify. 03:30:00.000 --> 03:30:15.300 Sen. Joel Villanueva: The bottom line 03:30:15.300 --> 03:30:32.940 Sen. Joel Villanueva: here that I wanted to raise is that will it also affect the bigger picture of your report na maraming hindi ma-explain na pondo na pumapasok 03:30:32.940 --> 03:30:33.640 Sen. Joel Villanueva: sa 03:30:33.640 --> 03:30:34.060 Sen. Joel Villanueva: mga 03:30:34.060 --> 03:30:34.200 Sen. Joel Villanueva: kumpanya. 03:30:34.200 --> 03:30:44.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong magbabago po doon sa aking report. At kahit po yung maliit na difference pong yan, I'm sure po marireconcile po namin. 03:30:44.780 --> 03:30:45.160 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And 03:30:45.160 --> 03:31:04.250 Sen. Joel Villanueva: then lastly, meron po bang dokumento sa inyong ni-review na natanggap po ng mag-asawa ang corporate money? As personal income or proportionate share lamang yung pong ginamit po ninyo? 03:31:05.510 --> 03:31:20.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang sinasabi nyo po ba yung pong hindi nakareport sa halimbawa po Cale88 or sa GenCorp Metro City, kung yung hindi nakareport na yun ay nag-flow sa kanila pong individual bank account? 03:31:20.610 --> 03:31:21.930 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Sa personal nila, opo. 03:31:22.490 --> 03:31:29.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po... Masabi kong nangyari po yun. Pero kung tinatago niyo po, ba't niyo po ipapakita sa kabila? 03:31:30.630 --> 03:31:31.230 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Exactly. 03:31:35.750 --> 03:31:45.350 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Pero yung corporate money that goes to personal income, meron pong ganon? Or it remains in the corporation? 03:31:45.750 --> 03:31:46.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 03:31:46.510 --> 03:31:47.550 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Yun po yung 03:31:47.550 --> 03:31:48.550 Sen. Joel Villanueva: gusto kong maintindihan. 03:31:48.550 --> 03:32:09.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Naintindihan ko po yung tinatanong niyo. Marami pong outflow yung corporation. At ang problema po, hanggang dito lang po yung nakikita natin eh. Yung papasok po, Hindi po natin alam kung kanino nang galing. Yung palabas po, hindi rin po natin alam kung paano nila ginamit o kanino nila dineposito. 03:32:10.640 --> 03:33:03.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So ito po talagang medyo, ito yung comprehensive na forensic na po, ito na po yung pag-build na halimbawa po ng criminal case. Subalit yung aking engagement po sa Senado, ay tignan lamang kung meron bang wealth manifestly disproportionate sa kanilang income. Meron bang evidence ng kanilang business interest? Tama ba yung SALN? At sasabihin ko lang po na kahit hindi po ako naging empleyado ng gobyerno at hindi po nag-file ng SALN, ay gusto ko lamang pong sabihin, ang SALN po ang pinakasimple na balance sheet po. na nakita ko at napaka-awkward po ng SALN. Complicated po yung mga balance sheet na inaaral po na yung SALN po. Asset, personal property. Hindi ko po kailangan maging... Hindi po. Hindi ko po kailangan pumasok po ng gobyerno para maintindihan po yung SALN. 03:33:03.560 --> 03:33:03.920 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Last 03:33:03.920 --> 03:33:21.740 Sen. Joel Villanueva: na lang po, Mr. Witness. Kung bibigyan po kayo ng pagkakataon na humingi ng dokumento, kasi you never had a chance to talk to the respondents or ask any document from the respondents, what would that be kung hihingin niyo po ito to finally... 03:33:23.290 --> 03:33:27.950 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Put the icing on the cake with your extensive report. 03:33:28.130 --> 03:33:34.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi, simulan ko na lang po sa kanina po may natanong po sa akin si Atty. Kristine. 03:33:36.430 --> 03:34:10.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Alam ko rin ba kung may payable o ano. Kasi puro inflow yung tinignan namin apparently. Hindi naman namin binerify kung may payable. Pero gusto ko lang pong sabihin na wala pong payable dun sa SALN eh. How do you verify something which is not even there? Diba? And kung nga nakuha namin bank accounts, kaya nga po sinasabi ko na sana po eh may sinubmit sila doon sa answer nila sa House o kaya dito po sa Senado. Nang natignan ko po. Kasi kung totoo po yun, ibabawas ko po yun eh. Yun po yung kasunduan ginawa ko po sa Senado. Okay, sige. 03:34:13.740 --> 03:34:33.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Probono, sige. Pero walang pwedeng magdikta. Kung ano yung makita ko, yun lang. Huwag niyo akong isisway kaliwa o kanan. Yan lang po yung condition ko dahil ang dali-dali naman po mag-resign eh. Pag kami po yung namilit sa akin, so kung dadalin po, I will be happy to look at it. At kung mali po yung 817, na-aminin ko po. 03:34:34.610 --> 03:34:44.170 Sen. Joel Villanueva: So bottom line, you don't need anything to prove na solid itong report po. Maraming salamat po, Mr. Witness. Thank you. 03:34:44.690 --> 03:34:57.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo is next followed by Senator Judge Ontiveros. Just so that you can prepare. Senator Judge Erwin, you have a variable period of two minutes as well. 03:34:58.410 --> 03:35:03.030 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Maraming salamat po ginong Pangulo, ginong Presiding Officer. 03:35:08.420 --> 03:36:19.030 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Susundan ko lang po yung ilang katanungan po ng ating kasamang si Senator Judge Joel Villanueva. Ginong testigo patungkol po doon sa mga ari-ariyan na hindi po na-deklara at pagkatapos nakita kung ano pong gagawin doon. Ika nga suddenly po ay nasili po anong mangyayari doon. Medyo hindi ko po nasundan. Kasi kanina umaga po, ginong testigo, nagsagawa po na isang press conference sa National Bureau of Investigation. Eh kaya nga po ako lumabas kanina at pinapanood ko. At lumabas na rin po sa mga media kanikanina lamang. Ang sinasabi po kasi yung press conference ay patungkol po sa ilang ari-arian ni VP Sara. Gusto ko pong malaman kung itong mga ari-arian po na ito na ipinalabas sa press conference ng NBI at pinalabas sa media, kasama po ba ito sa SALN niya? Ngayon, kung papahintulutan po ako ninyo, ginawang presiding officer, na makita po, ipalabas po itong ari-arian para makita po ng ating testigo. at ma-identify kung ano-ano mga ari-arian na ito. 03:36:24.400 --> 03:36:26.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Senator Judge Tulfo. 03:36:28.700 --> 03:36:37.180 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Maraming salamat po. So, pwede po bang pakiplay dahil ito po ay napick up namin din sa media ngayong umaga po. 03:36:55.510 --> 03:36:56.430 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Sandali lang po. 03:37:11.990 --> 03:37:28.510 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: May kasama pong video po yun para ma-identify po ninyo ginaon testigo. Ano po yung sinasabi po ng NBI kanina tsaka media kung tugma po ba kung ito'y kasama po doon sa inyong inaudit na ikangarito po. 03:37:28.945 --> 03:37:34.160 Video Playback Narration: ... 03:37:36.660 --> 03:37:57.900 Video Playback Narration: Ayan, ito yung isang property. Declined to as agricultural. The value of pag ginunbay n'yo, 900,000 na. But you look at the resort, it's more than 900,000. At walang declaration of impugnance. Can you show other properties na may dito may laki yan? May 03:37:57.900 --> 03:37:59.620 Video Playback Narration: dalawang may nakasabi. Ito yung [unclear]. 03:38:00.480 --> 03:38:15.080 Video Playback Narration: ... 03:38:16.170 --> 03:38:16.870 Video Playback Narration: It's 03:38:16.870 --> 03:38:20.650 Video Playback Narration: a [unclear], with [unclear] swimming pool. 03:38:21.224 --> 03:38:48.983 Video Playback Narration: ... 03:38:51.360 --> 03:38:57.700 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Okay. Kindly advise our tech. Salamat po, ginawang technician. Ginawang testigo. 03:38:59.290 --> 03:39:16.030 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Nabanggit po doon na may narinig po akong 200,000 na po ang halaga at mukhang agricultural land po yan. Ito po ba yung nakalagay na land agricultural sa barangay Santo Nino, Balac, Igacos na acquisition cost ay 200,000 po? 03:39:17.610 --> 03:39:32.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Honorable Judge Tulpo, pagpasensya nyo na po. Pero hindi po ako makapagbigay ng opinion basta-basta eh. Kailangan ko po makita yung TCT, kailangan ko po makita yung address, yung square meters po kung pareho. 03:39:34.240 --> 03:39:42.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron nga pong simpleng property lang po dito nung isang araw po eh hindi po masabi kong yun po yung property pinag-uusapan. 03:39:44.200 --> 03:39:48.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po talaga masabi kung kasama po yan o hindi po sa nadeclare po. 03:39:48.360 --> 03:40:00.840 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Dalawa po yung ipinakita ko kanina ng NBI at lumabas na rin po sa mga media. Ang tanong ko po, kasama ko kaya ito sa 817 million pesos na undeclared wealth po ng vicepresidente? 03:40:02.340 --> 03:40:32.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Honorable Judge Tulpo, again po, sorry po hindi po ko makakapagsalita conclusively on that hanggat ako po ay nakapagdaos po ng investigation po dun po sa mga Titulo po at other documents related po sa property na yan. Kasi po baka isa po yun sa mga property naka-declare. Although kung titignan ko po yung pinakita nyo, mukha naman pong valuable siya. Dahil dalawa po yung swimming pool, ganun po. 03:40:32.400 --> 03:40:34.280 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So ibig niya sabihin ho kung 03:40:35.500 --> 03:40:43.380 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Hindi po kayo sigurado kung naisama niyo na sa computation niyo na 870 na undeclared itong mga ipinakita po ng NBI? 03:40:43.660 --> 03:40:47.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Hindi po ako sigurado kung nandun po yan. 03:40:48.640 --> 03:41:17.950 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kung bibigyan po kayo ng kopya marahil ng prosecution, I believe, may we ask the prosecution, sir, if you have copies of the TCT, was this included doon po sa ikang... Pag-o-audit ng ating testigo. Ito pong dalawang agricultural land daw po na sinasabi ng NBI sa Davao na mal-resort naman po pero agricultural po yung itura. 03:41:20.300 --> 03:41:31.160 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: As I recall, Your Honor, what we have are the copies of the SALNs, the Statements of Assets, Liabilities, and Net Worth. At doon po naka-describe yung iba't ibang mga dineclare na real properties. 03:41:31.640 --> 03:41:35.760 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Okay. So you haven't seen this video yet, Mr. Prosecutor? 03:41:35.780 --> 03:41:36.000 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: No. 03:41:36.220 --> 03:41:46.780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Ito po ang pinalabas ng NBI. Would you later look into this to check and counter-check kung tama po itong investigation ng NBI? 03:41:47.300 --> 03:41:48.880 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Sure. We will do that, Your Honor. 03:41:49.400 --> 03:41:51.940 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: That's all for me, Mr. Presiding Officer. 03:41:52.240 --> 03:41:52.480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With 03:41:52.480 --> 03:41:55.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the indulgence of Senator Judge Erwin, Atty. Cabrera, 03:41:57.250 --> 03:42:09.280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sabi niyo po kanina hindi kayo nagpa-file ng SALN, pero nakalagay po kasi sa SALN, acquisition cost. Hindi po nakalagay doon fair market value ng ari-arian. 03:42:09.920 --> 03:42:15.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Parang except real property po. Parang kailangan pong i-disclose sa rules yung... 03:42:15.170 --> 03:42:23.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'm the one telling you, since you haven't filed the SALN, I'm already telling you na... Wala pong fair market value, acquisition cost lamang po. 03:42:23.580 --> 03:42:23.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, 03:42:24.820 --> 03:42:27.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you said you described the SALN as one of the simplest balance sheets. 03:42:29.980 --> 03:42:49.820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So kung acquisition cost, anumang improvements, technically need not be declared, technically. I'm not aware of any civil service regulation that requires it. So kung hindi dineclare, posibleng kasama yun sa net worth ng isang tao pero hindi nakadeclare sa SALN. 03:42:49.940 --> 03:42:50.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 03:42:50.800 --> 03:42:51.480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Would that be correct? 03:42:51.700 --> 03:42:52.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 03:42:52.160 --> 03:42:59.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, basing it on your analysis that the SALN is a balance sheet, is a simple balance sheet, ika nga, na wala masyadong mga detalye. 03:42:59.750 --> 03:43:00.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 03:43:00.670 --> 03:43:03.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. Next is Senator Jojon Diveros. 03:43:08.450 --> 03:43:10.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, ma'am, you have a variable period of two minutes. 03:43:12.670 --> 03:43:16.690 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon po, Atty. Cabrera. 03:43:16.830 --> 03:43:17.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang hapon po, ma'am. 03:43:19.770 --> 03:43:27.490 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Sir, para po malinaw, saan pong mga dokumento niyo ibinase itong report ninyo? 03:43:31.050 --> 03:43:43.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasama na rin po yung, well, unang-una po, SALN po. Tapos po yung mga, meron po kaming documents about the properties declared po doon sa SALN. 03:43:45.280 --> 03:44:31.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tapos po yun sa mga business interest po, yung mga financial statements po ng corporation. At saka in one instance po sa GenCorp, kasama po yung mga ari-arian ng corporation. In particular po yung mga franchises. Pero may kasama rin po itong sa latter part po, yung AMLA documents in respect po dun sa mga remittances largely from China. na naging basean din po yun. Tapos po yung mga kung kung ano man po yung meron po kami mga insurance policies or mga investment information po, income tax returns, tsaka yung mga financial statements po na nakatouch po doon sa income tax return po. 03:44:32.380 --> 03:44:33.620 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright, so ito po 03:44:33.620 --> 03:44:59.220 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: lahat ng mga official documents na ginamit niyo sa forensic report. Alright, salamat po. So, speaking of the SALNs, sa inyong findings, 817,874,867 ang lumalabas na hindi i-dineklarang yama ni VP Duterte sa kanyang mga SALNs mula 2022 hanggang 2025. 03:45:00.360 --> 03:45:01.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 03:45:01.580 --> 03:45:09.440 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Paano niyo po siniguro na tama itong computation at wala pong na-dobling ibinilang? assets. 03:45:09.900 --> 03:45:16.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So yan po yung isa po sa meticulous po namin tinatry na gawin po. 03:45:17.740 --> 03:45:18.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 03:45:18.510 --> 03:45:46.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: paano po namin sinigurado for ice review. Kunti pong gamit ng simple pong software technology sa pag-compare po. Tulad po halimbawa nung sa Cale88 po. Baka po yung bank accounts na pinasukan po ng foreign remittances e pareho nung local bank accounts po na nandito. So sinigurado po namin na magkaibang account po yun. 03:45:46.860 --> 03:45:48.280 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At sigurado po kayo at this 03:45:48.280 --> 03:45:49.660 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: point of time magkakaibang 03:45:49.660 --> 03:45:50.020 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: accounts po yun? 03:45:50.620 --> 03:45:52.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sigurado na po kaming magkaiba yun. 03:45:52.440 --> 03:45:52.780 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. 03:45:54.050 --> 03:46:19.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So pagka po in case of doubt po at the risk of making an error, in case of doubt po, hindi po namin isasama. Kasi po baka mag-doble, sumobra po yung estimate namin. Ang sabi ko nga po sa aking maliit na team, libaling kulangin, huwag lang sumobra. Parang ganun po yung lagi po namin ginagawa. 03:46:19.600 --> 03:46:26.500 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So mas nagiging conservative po kayo kaysa expansive sa pagbilang at pagkuwenta ng mga assets? 03:46:28.620 --> 03:46:32.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. Hindi ko lang po alam yung expansive po. 03:46:34.440 --> 03:46:40.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi we cannot expand dahil nandun lang po kami sa documents po na hawak namin. 03:46:40.480 --> 03:46:51.320 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Or naalala ko po yung nung kinenta niyo yung halaga ng mga Jollibee franchise, may sinabi po kayo sa report na range mula ganitong halaga, 15M po ba yun hanggang ganito? 03:46:51.660 --> 03:46:52.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 35 po. 03:46:52.740 --> 03:46:54.220 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: To 35. Pero ginamit 03:46:54.220 --> 03:46:55.680 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: niyo po yung mas mababang range. 03:46:56.760 --> 03:47:43.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, at bagamat hindi nga po kami nakapag-inquire sa Jollibee or gumawa po ng formal communication, marami po kami kilala, ako po marami po ko personally may kilala na may Jollibee store. Kaya alam ko po yung ano nila at ang baba po nung 35 kasi wala pa po dyan yung ano eh. Wala pa po dyan yung working capital requirements eh. At lahat po nang kailangan yung gastos eh para makapagtaguyod ng isang store. Kaya alam ko po yung 35 po ay patas na patas. At yung pong wala pong valuation, hindi po mapapababa ng valuation yung property. Bare minimum po yun eh. Capital po yung dinagdag po namin eh. 03:47:43.190 --> 03:47:43.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi 03:47:43.710 --> 03:47:52.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kung kukunin niyo po yung valuation, ano po, sige sabihin po natin, okay lang po ba, honorable judge, mag-explain ng konti. 03:47:52.570 --> 03:47:52.750 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Nang 03:47:52.750 --> 03:47:56.190 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: konti po kasi baka naman maging conservative yung 03:47:56.190 --> 03:47:56.470 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: variable 03:47:56.470 --> 03:47:57.070 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: 2 minutes 03:47:57.070 --> 03:48:16.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Alimbawa po yung, alimbawa po, ang total po ng revenue niya taon-taon, hindi po ito related sa, alimbawa po, total po ng revenue niya taon-taon ay 1 billion. So pagka ginamitan niyo po yan ng cash flow method over a period of 5 years, yung 1 billion na yan easily magdodoble yan o magtitriple yan. 03:48:16.530 --> 03:48:17.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero 03:48:17.010 --> 03:48:54.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pag ginagdag niyo dyan ng terminal value, yung bang infinite na walang katapusan na, meron pong formula yun, pero yung 3 billion na value niya, baka maging 4.5. Mas malayo po yan ang dihamak sa... amount po ng initial seed capital po nung investment. Kaya gusto ko lang pong maintindihan po ng lahat na hindi po kami salbahe na yun lang po yung ginamit namin dahil hindi po value ng business yung ginamit namin eh. Dahil meron nga pong kinakailangan method or... scientific method po na dapat gamitin po doon. 03:48:54.290 --> 03:49:04.970 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At isa po sa mga scientific methods na binanggit nyo kanina, yung four eyes review, literally apat na mata, literally hindi lamang kayo ang tumitingin kundi may iba pang kasama sa small team 03:49:04.970 --> 03:49:05.210 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: nyo. 03:49:05.270 --> 03:49:07.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi lang po actually four eyes, mga six eyes po. 03:49:07.810 --> 03:49:10.050 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So ito 03:49:10.050 --> 03:49:27.650 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: po, ibig pong sabihin, yung ibinilang nyo so far, medyo mahigpit yung confidence nyo na masabi, ito po talaga yung distinct na mga dapat ibilang. Dito sa loob ng distinct na ibilang na asset sa loob ng SALN. 03:49:27.690 --> 03:49:49.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Isang example lang po. Limba po yung ending cash balances. Sinigurado po namin na fresh money yun. Kasi baka andun sa ending balance ng first year, tumawid ng second year, we're talking about the same amounts. Pero nakikita po namin na nauubos yun. At papasok po yung bagong pera. At galing po sa bagong pera, doon po may establish yung ending balance. 03:49:50.220 --> 03:49:50.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kaya, 03:49:51.200 --> 03:50:02.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung baga po yung apat na taon yun, tinignan po namin lahat po na pumasok na pera at lumabas, kayang-kaya pong i-establish po ng fresh money po yung mga ending balances po. 03:50:03.120 --> 03:50:12.480 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So sa ganyang mga fresh ending balances, sa ganyang mga distinct na assets, sumika po kayo na walang pagdoble ng pagbilang? 03:50:12.580 --> 03:50:12.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 03:50:14.680 --> 03:50:19.300 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Nabanggit din po kanina na yung cash po ng mag-asawa, 03:50:19.300 --> 03:50:20.100 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: eh, 03:50:20.960 --> 03:50:35.740 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Posibleng nakalump doon sa other personal property sa SALN. Kung ganyan po yung paliwanag, magtutugma po ba yung pera sa bangko at saka investment accounts doon sa dineklarang other personal properties? 03:50:36.400 --> 03:50:46.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, wala pong problema eh kahit nandun po yung cash. Kasi po kung nandun po yung cash, wala po kaming cash na tinanggal doon kumbaga. So sabihin po natin nandun na po yung cash. 03:50:47.160 --> 03:51:04.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pag kinompare nyo po doon sa personal properties na nakita namin, meron pong discrepancy, di po ba? So kumbaga, parang kung nandoon yung cash, e di dapat, mas malaki pa yung discrepancy. Pero sa totoo po nyan, classification of assets lang po yan, hindi po yan makaka-apekto ng total po. 03:51:05.460 --> 03:51:05.920 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So 03:51:05.920 --> 03:51:06.120 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: kung 03:51:06.120 --> 03:51:07.920 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: saan mang kategorya inilagay, 03:51:07.940 --> 03:51:08.660 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: ang 03:51:08.660 --> 03:51:16.940 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: suma total ay magiging Reasonable or expected. Hindi nakakagulat. Wala pong discrepancy na 03:51:16.940 --> 03:51:17.920 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: nalabas. Okay 03:51:17.920 --> 03:51:35.940 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: po. Sa inyo pong professional opinion pa rin, Atty. Cabrera, bakit po importante na isama sa analysis ng kasong ito yung pera, investments, properties, business interests ng asawa ni VP Duterte? 03:51:37.580 --> 03:51:48.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, dahil po yung unang-una po yung requirement po sa SALN ay dapat pong i-file kasama po yung properties po, business interest po ng mag-asawa. 03:51:50.820 --> 03:52:25.530 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, because of absolute community of property, kung ano po yung kitain po ng asawa po ay kita rin po nung may bahay. In this case po, si... BP Sara. So hanggat wala pong prenuptial agreement at kung absolute community po yun, mabubuwag lang po yun ang judicial decree of separation or if not, separation of properties. Pero kung may ganun po, wala rin pong naisubmit sa amin. Kaya po talaga pong magkasama po yung ginawa po namin. 03:52:25.830 --> 03:52:36.410 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So dahil sa batas at dahil sa presumption nyo sa property regime na namamagitan sa kanilang dalawa, Ganito po niyo, Quinenta, na isinama po yung kay Atty. Carpio din. 03:52:38.010 --> 03:52:38.650 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At 03:52:41.150 --> 03:52:53.770 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: sa batas din po, ano po yung rason kung bakit nga isinasama yung asawa sa SALN declarations at sa pagdetermina ng unexplained wealth? 03:52:56.950 --> 03:53:27.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Accountability po, siguro. Yun po yung mahalaga doon. Kasi kung may absolute community of property kayo, kasama po sa accountability na i-declare niyo yung property po ng asawa. Kasi po, ilipat niyo lang po doon, ligtas na po kayo. I-push niyo lang sa kanya. O wala akong property ha, property mo yan lahat. E di ligtas na. So para po magkaroon po ng accountability, pinapakupko po ng batas na i-declare po sa iisang SALN. 03:53:29.300 --> 03:54:06.940 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: And actually pag tinitingnan po natin yung definition ng mga salita, accountability ibig sabihin talagang pwedeng ikwenta. So na-account po yung ganitong mga assets sa mga SALN. And then paulit-ulit din po binabanggit sa buong trial halos na may separate personality ang korporasyon sa may-ari nito. So, bakit po dito sa computation ninyo, isinama nyo yung assets ng mga kumpanya sa yaman ng isang VP Duterte? 03:54:08.530 --> 03:56:14.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, yung simple ko pong paliwanag nung una pong araw is kung hindi nyo po pinasok sa loob ng korporasyon, ang ibig sabihin ay paghahati-hatihan nyo yun. Pero sinundan po nga ni Honorable Shell ng May legal basis ba yun? Yung legal basis nga po na sinabi ko is piercing the veil of corporate fiction. Alam niyo po sa forensic review, marami pong panginabang ang piercing the veil of corporate fiction. Ginagamit po yan pag nagli-liquidate po ang kumpanya. Pwede bang habulin yung mga may-ari ng kampanyang yun in a liquidation case? Pagka hinahabol po ng manggagawa yung pong kumpanya, Pwede bang i-pierce yung bail para makakolekta sila ng salary kung agency sila halimbawa at hindi sila makakolekta dito sa pinagtatrabaho nila kasi nasa agency sila, pinipierce po yung bail na isa kayo, ganyan. So dito naman po sa atin yung pong substantial under declaration po ang dahilan po ng pag-pierce ng bail. Ito pong pag-pierce ng bail ay Isinasa isang tabi po ang korporasyon pag ginagamit po ang korporasyon sa pang-aabuso. Kasi po yung korporasyon po napakaganda po ng ano eh. Napakaganda po ng nagagawa niyan para sa negosyo. Ang isang tao na may konting kapital ay pwede po magtayo ng maliit na restaurant. Pwede po siya magtayo ng maliit na restaurant. At halimbawa lang po, ang kanya pong investment po doon ay 100,000. Halimbawa lang po. Pagka meron pong nasira ang tiyan at nalason po sa kanyang restaurant, at ang sabi, ang laki ng medical bill ko, ang bill ko umabot ng 5 million. Pagka po sino niya po yung restaurant, hanggang 100,000 lang po yung makukuha niya. 03:56:16.420 --> 03:56:31.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Generally, kasi po may corporation, the corporation is only liable to the extent of its assets. Pero pag napatunayan po na ito pong may-ari po ng restaurant, eh sobra pong pabaya. 03:56:33.100 --> 03:56:46.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Manok na luma, hinahalo. At mga isda na luma, hinahalo. So, sobra pong pabaya po. Tapos sabi niya, hindi ka na makakulekta sa akin eh. 100,000 lang makakulekta mo 03:56:46.060 --> 03:57:01.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa akin kahit na nalason kita. Lasunin man kita, wala kang magagawa. Yung po yung ano, yung po yung inaabuso mo yung korporasyon para maprotectan yung sarili mo. Doon po yung mga pagkakataon na pinipierce po yung veil of corporate fiction po. 03:57:01.750 --> 03:57:15.990 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So ito pong pagpierce ng veil of corporate fiction, in a way, paraan din para panatilihin yung orihinal, tamang at... Magandang layunin ng pagkakaroon ng mga korporasyon sa negosyo 03:57:15.990 --> 03:57:17.290 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: at pinipigilan 03:57:17.290 --> 03:57:18.590 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: yung pang-aabuso nito. 03:57:18.870 --> 03:57:46.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So yung pagpinilis po yung bail, para pong walang korporasyon. Tapos yung mga stockholders po doon, para lang po silang group of persons working together. So hindi po papayagan na... Pero depende po sa inyo, honorable judges, kaya tulad nga po na-point out po ng defense na hindi naman conclusive yung aking report ng piercing of the veil. Nasa inyo po yun kung sa tingin niyo po tama po na i-pierce ang veil. 03:57:48.380 --> 03:57:55.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nabanggit po earlier yung tax code po, 30%. E ito po, e ano eh. We're talking of 87% under declaration. 03:57:58.020 --> 03:58:06.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: for GenCorp 69, for Metro City Chow, more than 50% for Cale88. So much more po than the threshold. 03:58:07.120 --> 03:58:29.370 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Nagdodoble o nagtitriple sa threshold ng 30%. And yung pang-aabusong pinipigilan ay alang-alang sa mag-asawa na may absolute community of property. Alang-alang din pala sa mga manggagawa sa usapin ng... Katarungan panlipunan, maaring alang-alang sa kalusugan ng isang customer na food poisoning. Sa inyong mga halimbawa. Salamat po. 03:58:33.530 --> 03:58:44.210 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Kailan po pwedeng sabihin na may unexplained wealth ang isang opisyal? Basta po bang may hindi dineklara sa SALN ay unexplained wealth na po yun? 03:58:46.900 --> 03:58:52.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron pong marami pong Supreme Court decisions po dyan na binasa ko rin po bago po gawin yung 03:58:54.300 --> 03:58:55.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: trabaho pong ito. 03:58:56.560 --> 03:59:07.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang nakikita ko po, hindi po yung fact that it was not declared, not that mere fact per se, 03:59:07.510 --> 03:59:08.550 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: but 03:59:08.550 --> 03:59:22.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: the deliberate concealment of the property. Pero po yung pag sinabi pong deliberate concealment o sinadya po talaga na itago yung property, 03:59:22.970 --> 03:59:23.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: para pong 03:59:24.220 --> 03:59:29.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Akala niyo po mahirap because it goes into the state of mind. Di po ba na deliberate ba o hindi. 03:59:30.180 --> 03:59:30.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero 03:59:30.620 --> 03:59:52.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ang sagot po dyan mismo ng batas is it manifestly disproportionate. Kasi pag manifestly disproportionate po, wala na pong usapan sa intent. Halata na po eh. Halatang halata na po eh. Sorry, hindi ko sinasadya. Halata na po. Tapos taon-taon po. Kaya po naging ganyan po yung report po namin. 03:59:53.450 --> 04:00:08.020 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So mayroong parang may finding na sadya ito, naitago. Tapos, sobrang halatang anlaki kumpara sa kita and then paulit-ulit over time. 04:00:08.280 --> 04:00:08.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:00:08.820 --> 04:00:09.400 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: O, 04:00:11.180 --> 04:00:25.840 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: speaking of concealment, sa inyong assessment pa rin, may mga senyales ba na sadyang itinago itong 817 million pesos plus mula sa batas at mula sa mata ng publiko? 04:00:27.060 --> 04:01:03.530 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung senyales po, nandoon naman po. Gagamitin ko na lang po yung percentage po ng under-declaration or under-reporting kasi nga po yung sinasabi ko na that makes it manifest. That makes it manifestly disproportionate. Tapos po yung mga kumpanya po na hindi po ka panipaniwala yung mga financial statements. Ang lalaki po ng kita, ang liliit po ng capital. Ang lalaki po ng kita, lugi po ang bottom line. Ito po yung mga tell-tale signs na meron pong fraudulent reporting po na nangyayari. 04:01:03.830 --> 04:01:04.310 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright, 04:01:05.410 --> 04:01:26.750 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: salamat po. Ah, pwede nyo rin po bang ipaliwanag yung naririnig natin na modus na either, modus sa manager's check, I mean, either check kiting, tinikling, or yung binanggit nyo kanina lang na revolving door. So, paano po ba yan nangyayari or paano ginagawa? 04:01:27.630 --> 04:01:54.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po yung naobserbahan ko lang po dito. Actually, first time ko po nakakita nung ganun po yung manager's check po na labas-pasok po. Pero totoo na po yung sinabi ng defense. Wala po doong pirma si BP Sara doon sa manager's check. Pero yung time deposit po na yung nakapangalan po sa kanya pero wala po siyang pirma. 04:01:57.530 --> 04:01:59.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nawala po yung interest doon eh. 04:02:00.260 --> 04:02:00.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: O 04:02:00.800 --> 04:02:22.290 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kahit sabihin po natin hindi nakapangalan kay VP Sara, medyo may accountability naman po siya sa bank account because end or po yun. Nawala po yung interest doon sa time deposit at dahil ginawa pong manager's check. So to give up Interest on a large amount like that doesn't really make any business sense. Dahil malaking 04:02:22.290 --> 04:02:22.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: interest 04:02:22.650 --> 04:03:08.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: din, dahil malaking principal. Kaya di na po kayong magpahinga ng konti ng mga ilang araw dun po sa interest na yun. So yung manager's check po na patawid-tawid, maaari pong hindi natin talaga alam kung ano yung intention nun. Di po ba? Pero the fact po na paulit-ulit po, nagtitinikling po siya sa… Dulo po ng taon. Yun po yung point po namin na it is a concealment method. Pero again, tama naman po yung defense that this is prior to 2022 and yun nga po wala pong perma doon si BP Sara pero that is the behavior of that account. 04:03:09.750 --> 04:03:10.230 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At 04:03:10.230 --> 04:03:15.390 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: kaya revolving door naman yung isang image nyo ay dahil parang sa building na labas-masok sa 04:03:15.390 --> 04:03:16.830 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: lobby at sa sidewalk. 04:03:16.850 --> 04:03:17.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Oo po. 04:03:17.050 --> 04:03:42.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yun naman pong yun eh. Simptomas po yun ng money laundering. Again, wala po ito sa report ko at hindi ko po sinasabing may money laundering pong nangyayari dito. Sinasabi ko lang po ay simptomas. Pag ang pera po ay pumasok sa kumpanya, lumabas po the same day o lumabas po the following day. Ang ibig sabihin po nun, it didn't add any value to the company. Parang kontrapelo sa 04:03:42.280 --> 04:03:44.620 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: logic ng pagnenegosyo. 04:03:44.720 --> 04:04:09.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, parang ginagamit kang pass-through. Parang may mapagpasukan lang na parang kunwari ginagamit sa negosyo kasi pinasok po dun sa kumpanya. Kaya po yung tawag po dun yung revolving door. Pagpasok po, ikot labas. Ganon po yung... ng nangyayari po sa typical money laundering transactions po. 04:04:09.210 --> 04:04:09.670 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: And 04:04:09.670 --> 04:04:39.430 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: speaking of transactions within one day, meron po kayong nabanggit sa Isang specific date dito sa table 24 sa page 18 na August 6, 2024. Kung kailan nagkaroon ng total cash withdrawals na 41 million pesos in a matter of 1 hour 13 minutes. Unusual po ba ang ganitong klaseng mga transaction? 04:04:39.970 --> 04:04:49.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sa ordinaryong tao po, unusual po. 41 million in cash. Kailangan niyo po siyempre ng bag po doon. 04:04:51.030 --> 04:05:11.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Parang may hinahabol po eh kasi lahat po ginawa within the hour po. Pwede rin pong i-check yun eh sabi ko nga po. Ba't hindi nilang may managers check at i-deposit sa bank account na iba. Pero pagka po kasi cash, ibig sabihin ayaw po ng trail. 04:05:13.770 --> 04:05:59.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So kung wala pong trail, ito po sa amin yung ano eh, mga telltale signs din po sa forensic investigation eh. Pagka po yung mga transactions po kulang sa trail, kulang po sa record, wala pong document evidencing it pero nangyari po yung transaction, yung pong walang document nangyari yung transaction, evidence din po yun eh. Bakit, ba't wala yung document? Bakit wala yung governance? Bakit wala yung mga required corporate and regulatory documents na makakapagsabi kung ano talaga yung mga details ng transaction na yun? 04:05:59.490 --> 04:06:01.290 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So bakit 04:06:01.290 --> 04:06:06.210 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: walang governance as evidenced by the document trail? May binanggitin po kayong 04:06:07.990 --> 04:06:19.530 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Nagmumukhang may hinahabol. Ano yung bakang hinahabol sa ganung klaseng mga transaksyon na ang suma total ay malaking halaga tapos maaaring gawin sa loob lamang ng kulang pa sa dalawang oras? 04:06:20.640 --> 04:06:27.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tinignan po kasi namin po din yung mga timestamp. Tapos inaanalyze po namin yung mga timestamp malapit po sa bawat isa. 04:06:27.900 --> 04:06:28.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Except 04:06:28.500 --> 04:06:44.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yung timestamp po nung huling withdrawal na 12.37 or so. Tapos yung katuloy niya po ay mga alauna 12.23pm tapos 1.17pm. Nag-lunch po muna. 04:06:45.000 --> 04:06:45.600 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Nag 04:06:45.600 --> 04:06:57.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: -lunch muna tapos kinuha po yung... So yun po kaya sa amin parang may kinahabol kasi right after lunch tuloy yung transaction. Matagal din po kasi magbilang ng 41 million. 04:06:58.240 --> 04:07:02.580 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: I guess po. So iniimagine niyo rin pala po kung paano talaga nag-unfold yung events na yun po. 04:07:02.580 --> 04:07:05.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ganyan po talaga ang forensic investigation po. 04:07:05.470 --> 04:07:16.470 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Yes sir. Huling tanong na lang po. So yung Cale88 ay nakatanggap ng 319 million pesos mula sa China na finlag ng AMLC. 04:07:18.370 --> 04:07:22.270 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Lumalabas po ba yan sa audited financial statements? 04:07:24.480 --> 04:07:29.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang audited financial statements po kasi ng Cale88, everything po is in pesos. 04:07:31.280 --> 04:08:02.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So hindi po namin malaman kung yung dollar po na kinonvert sa Peso. Pero tulad nga po nung nasabi ko po sa inyo kanina, magkaiba po yung bank accounts na peso at yung dollars po. At hindi po namin nakita kung paano po yun na na-convert po. Pero pag in-add nyo naman po yung peso equivalent po nung dollar remittances tsaka po itong local, yun naman po yung ginamit namin to compare po what was declared. 04:08:04.180 --> 04:08:22.500 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So kahit hindi nga po natignan yung dollar transactions, may teorya po ba na pwedeng i-base sa forensic report kung saan naman pumunta yung perang yan, yung 319 million pesos na yan mula sa China? 04:08:22.800 --> 04:08:23.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pasensya na po. 04:08:23.760 --> 04:08:24.440 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: It's okay po. 04:08:24.780 --> 04:08:46.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ma'am, wala po kaming teorya po doon eh. Although... Sa peso account po, meron po mga konting credit memo na yun po, possibly po sigurong galing sa foreign account pero wala rin po kaming katibayan doon. So wala po kong theory po doon, wala po kong pagbabasihan. 04:08:47.740 --> 04:08:51.580 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Marami salamat po, Attorney Cabrera. Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. 04:08:54.260 --> 04:08:58.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready. 04:08:59.630 --> 04:09:00.850 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you, Mr. Presiding 04:09:00.850 --> 04:09:04.470 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Officer. Magandang hapon po sa inyo, Atty. Cabrera. 04:09:04.570 --> 04:09:06.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang hapon din po sa inyo, Honorable Judge. 04:09:06.810 --> 04:10:20.010 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ay, idadagdag ko lang doon sa unang mga, yung mga tanong ni Sen. Tiveros. Yung August 6, 2024, sabi ninyo, 41 million ang winitdraw sa isang araw at parang may hinahabol. So, ako rin naging curious dito, kaya... Inisip ko ano ba nangyari nung August 6 o kaya thereabouts. Just to place on record, si Vice President Sara Duterte resigned as DepEd Chairperson July 19, 2024 and then on July 30, it's in the news and we can google it because that's what we did, drug charges were filed against attorney Manse Scarpio. Doon sa yung tawag dito. Magnetic lifter. So July 30 yun. So that was the filing was July 30 and then six days later nangyari ito. Kaninong account pala itong 6 August 2021? 04:10:20.130 --> 04:10:22.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pareho po kay Atty. Man Scarpio po. 04:10:23.290 --> 04:10:35.500 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Both kay Atty. Mans Carpio. Just for the record. Doon naman sa report po ninyo, nabanggit nyo yung safety deposit box or vault? Do you remember that? 04:10:35.660 --> 04:10:36.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, 04:10:36.100 --> 04:10:45.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: wala rin naman pong kahinatnan. Hindi ko po alam kung anong laman doon po. Yes, yes. So, nirecord lang po namin doon na klinose na po yun. 04:10:45.220 --> 04:10:59.760 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, pero that was safety deposit box 27, 28, 29, and 30. Open on October 11. but all boxes were closed on January 7, 2025. Sa araw. 04:10:59.880 --> 04:11:00.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:11:02.300 --> 04:11:07.340 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Hypothetically, and based on your professional experience, anong nilalagay sa safety deposit box? 04:11:07.660 --> 04:11:10.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Mahalagang bagay po. Valuable things po. 04:11:10.500 --> 04:11:10.960 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tulad ng? 04:11:12.490 --> 04:11:15.750 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Hindi dito sa kasong to, no? Because you wouldn't know. Pero based 04:11:15.750 --> 04:11:16.470 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: on your... 04:11:16.470 --> 04:11:20.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Jewelry po. Mga mahalagang jewelry po ng family. Mahalagang dokumento po. 04:11:21.190 --> 04:11:22.150 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Mga dokumento? 04:11:22.170 --> 04:11:26.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. Paminsan-minsan po. Even very sentimental things po. Nandun po. 04:11:26.650 --> 04:11:28.010 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pera, nilalagay din sa safety. 04:11:28.010 --> 04:11:41.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Of course po. Opo. Pero may banko naman po. Ba't kailangan pa ng safety deposit box? Meron naman pong mga... Malaman po yun na valuable properties, not money. Kung ako po yung tatanungin. 04:11:42.550 --> 04:11:43.750 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pero pwedeng pera. 04:11:43.850 --> 04:11:44.550 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede rin po. 04:11:46.690 --> 04:11:47.350 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pwedeng cash. 04:11:49.050 --> 04:11:50.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Theoretically po, pwede po. Opo. 04:11:52.260 --> 04:12:29.960 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So yun lang, no? Kasi nabanggit nyo, no? Lahat sinara sa isang araw. That just gives us pause to think, no? Manager's checks ba nilalagay din sa... Doon naman sa manager's checks, nabanggit na naman kanina, no? Usual ba yun na you issue the manager's check to yourself and then you do it 12 times in a period of... Three years? I mean, again, have you encountered that practice? 04:12:30.240 --> 04:12:33.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, honestly po, first time ko pong nakita po yun. 04:12:33.720 --> 04:12:45.110 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kasi yun, hindi ba usually pag manager's check, babayaran mo yung binili mo lupa, so yung pinagbilihan mo, yung seller, sa kanya naka-issue yung manager's check. 04:12:45.710 --> 04:12:59.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Alam niyo po itong manager's check po na lumalabas po at the end of the year. para po hindi po mahuli yung cash at hindi magkaroon ng discrepancy sa SALN. Hindi po siya effective eh. 04:13:00.360 --> 04:13:00.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi 04:13:00.840 --> 04:13:05.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po pagka nilabas niyo yung manager's check, ang ibig sabihin po nun, yung bangko ay may utang sa inyo. 04:13:06.000 --> 04:13:06.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So 04:13:06.480 --> 04:13:08.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kung may utang sa inyo yung bangko, meron kang receivable. 04:13:09.370 --> 04:13:10.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ibig sabihin, 04:13:10.250 --> 04:13:20.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: dapat naka-declare po yung receivables sa SALN. So kung hindi po cash ang naka-declare doon, dapat po i-receivable. Kaya hindi po effective eh yung paglabas-pasok po na yun. 04:13:20.970 --> 04:13:23.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: In other words, 04:13:23.730 --> 04:13:27.650 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: kasama pa rin sa declaration ng iyong net worth, yung receivables. 04:13:27.850 --> 04:13:33.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dapat po. Receivable niyo po yun eh. May pruweba po noon dahil nakapangalan po sa inyo yun eh. 04:13:33.590 --> 04:13:37.510 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So naka-declare ba yung receivables doon sa SALN sa pag-aaral ninyo? 04:13:38.010 --> 04:13:44.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: May mga nadaanan po. Siyempre wala po. Yun nga po yung point nung paglabas. Kaya wala pong receivable po. 04:13:44.430 --> 04:13:44.650 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kasi 04:13:44.650 --> 04:13:47.610 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 95, ano? 96 04:13:47.610 --> 04:13:48.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 04:13:48.250 --> 04:13:49.150 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 96 million. 04:13:49.150 --> 04:13:50.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 41 tsaka 55 po. 04:13:50.530 --> 04:13:50.750 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 04:13:50.750 --> 04:14:00.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: you're saying dapat yung 96 million na yun na managers check, dapat nakareflect sa SALN ng receivables na 96 million. 04:14:00.190 --> 04:14:07.550 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Kasi po yung SALN po as at. So yung as at po certain date, wala po yung cash. 04:14:07.910 --> 04:14:08.210 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pero 04:14:08.210 --> 04:14:11.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung sa as at po na yun na December 31, meron pong receivable. 04:14:13.600 --> 04:14:16.860 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Punta tayo doon sa Cal88. 04:14:18.440 --> 04:14:29.740 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Dahil yung kanyang audited financial statement at as of 2025 ng Cal88, hindi na shareholder si Manse Scorpio, tama? 04:14:30.000 --> 04:14:36.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Ay, hindi po. Hindi po. Siya pa rin po. Sa treatment po namin, siya pa rin po. 04:14:37.670 --> 04:14:42.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Sorry, sa SALN niya, hindi na siya shareholder ng... 04:14:42.070 --> 04:14:46.230 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Noong 2025 po dahil din-expose niya po sa Pikimong-Pikimong. 04:14:46.230 --> 04:14:50.130 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Diba nakalagay na nailipat sa Pikimong-Pikimong. 04:14:50.190 --> 04:14:50.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At 04:14:50.810 --> 04:14:56.890 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: ang Pikimong-Pikimong naging 95% pag-aari ang Cale88. 04:14:59.550 --> 04:15:03.710 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Doon sa records, pinag-aaralan ba niyo yung records ng... 04:15:03.710 --> 04:15:04.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, 04:15:04.410 --> 04:15:14.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: meron po kaming ano, kinuha po namin yung SEC papers po ng Pikimong-Pikimong, isang public document naman po. 04:15:14.450 --> 04:15:15.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At 04:15:15.110 --> 04:15:30.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ang nakita po namin doon, yung Pikimong-Pikimong po, dalawa lang po yung shareholder at it is actually a shell company. Noong 2024, ang kanyang equity ay 56,000 pesos only. 04:15:30.620 --> 04:15:30.720 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ano 04:15:30.720 --> 04:15:33.460 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: ibig sabihin ng equity para sa ating mga kababayan? 04:15:34.160 --> 04:15:35.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, yun pong capital. 04:15:36.220 --> 04:15:37.940 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yun yung perang pinasok? 04:15:38.000 --> 04:15:58.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Perang pinasok po. Tapos nung ano naman po, nung 2025, nakalagay po sa GIS, ang kanya pong assets, kasi po wala pong financial statements, ang kanya pong assets ay 86,000 pesos po. Wala pong transaction. Wala pong kahit anong transaction. Wala pong... Wala pong disclosure kahit ano po. 04:15:59.110 --> 04:15:59.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So 04:15:59.670 --> 04:16:32.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi po niya binili. Wala pong binili. Kung nilipat man po nila, nag-usap sila, wala pong record po na pinagre-reflectan. So kaya po namin kinuha na lang po, tinik na lang po na natiling property po yun ni Atty. Man Scarpio. Dahil kung walang record yung paglipat mo, walang car. Sabihin natin naglipat ka ng private eh wala namang evidence na naglipat ka. Siyempre mananaig po yung official records po na siya po po yung may-ari. 04:16:33.150 --> 04:16:34.310 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So ang equity ay? 04:16:35.670 --> 04:16:39.190 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 56 po yung assets, tapos 04:16:39.190 --> 04:16:40.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 86 po yung pangalawa. 04:16:40.670 --> 04:16:48.490 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 86,000 pero base doon sa mga transaction ng Cale88 inflows magkano? 04:16:49.990 --> 04:16:50.750 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Would you 04:16:50.750 --> 04:16:50.970 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: recall? 04:16:51.580 --> 04:17:02.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, malaki po yung, meron pong year na malaki pero kung magbabasihan nyo lang po yung 300 plus million per year. 04:17:02.700 --> 04:17:18.590 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So doon pa lang, 300 plus million per year tapos binili ng isang kumpanyang Pikimong-Pikimong na 58,000 ang equity at 86,000 the following year. Medyo red flags na yon, di ba? 04:17:18.690 --> 04:17:30.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, hindi po siya 300 plus million per year. Parang meron pong umabot ng ganong under declaration po over the several years. 04:17:30.050 --> 04:17:30.110 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At yung 04:17:30.110 --> 04:17:33.670 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Cale88, yun din pumasok yung Chinese money, di ba? 04:17:34.150 --> 04:17:34.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, dun din po. 04:17:35.150 --> 04:17:46.410 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 319 million. So, dun magtataka ka talaga na yung isang 68. 58,000 equity and then the following year 86,000 ang paid. 04:17:47.310 --> 04:17:52.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Honorable Judge, hindi po 319 million po ang bilang po namin sa report? 04:17:52.530 --> 04:17:53.290 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ah yes, that's right. 04:17:54.330 --> 04:17:54.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 222 04:17:54.890 --> 04:17:55.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: lang po. 04:17:55.130 --> 04:17:58.290 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: AMLA records pala yung 319. Thank you for that correction. 04:18:00.250 --> 04:18:03.690 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: May tanong ako sa AMLA records, pinag-aralan din ninyo. 04:18:03.910 --> 04:18:04.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ay, opo. 04:18:04.810 --> 04:18:11.080 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. At doon, may mga lumalabas nga na yung dollar remittances, hindi ba? 04:18:11.420 --> 04:18:11.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 04:18:12.920 --> 04:18:24.110 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Meron bang pagbabangga ng peso accounts kung saan ay may mga nilipat sa dollar accounts sa AMLA records? 04:18:26.390 --> 04:18:29.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Parang wala po kaming napansin po ganun eh. 04:18:29.710 --> 04:18:30.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Galing 04:18:30.270 --> 04:18:31.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po sa peso nila, nilipat po sa dollar. 04:18:32.130 --> 04:18:35.480 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, yes. Alas din rito sa... 04:18:35.480 --> 04:18:37.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Parang wala po kami nakita. 04:18:37.980 --> 04:18:38.360 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, thank 04:18:38.360 --> 04:18:38.600 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: you. 04:18:41.140 --> 04:18:58.540 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yung sa GenCorp, ito rin sinabi ninyo sa report ninyo, katakataka, nasa 2021, 28 million ang kanilang... Tama ba yan? 28 million... Una-una, 1.25 million ang paid up capital ng GenCorp. Tama 04:18:58.540 --> 04:18:59.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Yan po tama po yan. 04:18:59.780 --> 04:19:11.140 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tapos in 2021, alin yung figure na 28 million? At lumobo ng 520 million. Anong figure ito? Nabanggit niyo sa report niyo yun eh. Sorry. 04:19:19.730 --> 04:19:23.450 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Genco. Genco. Sorry. Let me check my... Ayun. 04:19:25.320 --> 04:19:28.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sige po. Baka ma-refresh po ako pag nasabi niyo po. 04:19:28.960 --> 04:19:29.000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Total 04:19:29.000 --> 04:19:33.300 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: identified bank inflows from period 2022 to 2025. 04:19:37.880 --> 04:19:40.150 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pagka. Hindi pala yun. 04:19:44.810 --> 04:19:45.290 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Revenue. 04:19:47.340 --> 04:19:50.160 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Page 31 pala sa dami ng page. 04:19:52.710 --> 04:19:53.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala 04:19:53.470 --> 04:19:57.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pong page 31. Wala pong table of contents. 04:19:57.530 --> 04:20:12.350 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Page 31, GenCorp grew from a business generating approximately 28 million of revenue in 2021 to more than 520 million by 2025. Tama? That's on page 31 of your report. 04:20:12.750 --> 04:20:13.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 04:20:14.410 --> 04:20:25.310 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: During the same period, it acquired approximately 150 million of property and equipment while continuing to purchase inventory and fund day-to-day operations. 04:20:26.860 --> 04:20:36.380 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Despite the scale of this growth, sabi niyo, the company reported only 1.25 million of paid-in capital. Tama? 04:20:36.540 --> 04:20:37.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 04:20:37.080 --> 04:20:37.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 04:20:37.380 --> 04:20:41.760 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Para sa ating mga kababayan, ano yung 1.25 million paid-in capital? 04:20:41.880 --> 04:20:42.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Cash po na... 04:20:43.440 --> 04:20:43.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yung 04:20:44.560 --> 04:20:46.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Investment po sa kumpanya po. 04:20:46.800 --> 04:20:58.120 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So bakit mahalaga yun na maliit at malaki naman ang kanilang revenue? At yung 150 million na mga bentahan. 04:20:58.200 --> 04:20:58.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo kasi 04:20:58.800 --> 04:21:12.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung revenue po na malaki hindi nyo po yan makukuha sa maliit na asset. Opo ay sobrang galing na negosyo ng 1 million tapos ganun po kalaki yung 520 po yung na-degenerate niyang revenue. So ito po yung nanggaling po sa mga several 04:21:12.500 --> 04:21:28.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Jollibee stores. At kailangan po mag-invest dito po sa Jollibee stores. Isa nga lang po ay 35, di po ba? So, yung isang Jollibee store lang po, hindi po kaya ng 1.2 na capital po. 04:21:28.520 --> 04:21:28.960 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. 04:21:29.380 --> 04:21:35.980 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: But the financial statements do not clearly explain where the money came from. 04:21:37.530 --> 04:21:45.160 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So kung it does not clearly explain where the money came from, in your expert opinion, Saan galing yung pera? 04:21:49.670 --> 04:21:50.190 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Hypothetically. 04:21:50.470 --> 04:21:51.430 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Cannot explain po. 04:21:51.970 --> 04:21:52.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I cannot 04:21:52.510 --> 04:22:01.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: explain po where the money came from. Wala po talaga ako idea kung saan po nang galing yung pera. Pasensya na po. Manguhula po ako pagka sinagot ko po yan eh. 04:22:01.410 --> 04:22:07.660 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, katakataka. Maaring inutang? Sabihin, inutang. 04:22:07.680 --> 04:22:14.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: It came from, certainly came from the shareholders or from someone else. Maaring... 04:22:15.860 --> 04:22:19.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: basta hindi po from operations, yan po ang kaya ko po sabihin. 04:22:19.200 --> 04:22:20.140 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Hindi from operations. 04:22:21.520 --> 04:22:24.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pagka ganun po kalaki yung, disproportionate po eh. 04:22:27.490 --> 04:23:02.940 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ito naman, yung pattern that funds are introduced into and subsequently withdrawn from the entity with minimal economic value added. In these circumstances, revenue and cash flows may appear substantial. Yet the corporation retains only a nominal margin inconsistent with the scale of transactions. That's your second paragraph of page 31. Sa man on the street, sa ordinaryong mamamayan, can you explain it in layman's terms? Anong ibig sabihin ng 04:23:02.940 --> 04:23:03.560 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: paragraph niya? 04:23:03.600 --> 04:23:36.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So pag magpapasok ka ng pera sa kumpanya, investment man po o inutang, ang ibig sabihin nun eh, kailangan mo yung pera. Bibili ka ng equipment, bibili ka ng inventory, ipangbabayad mo sa empleyado mo o sa mga pinagkakautangan mo. So ito pong pera na pumapasok at lumalabas at mga several po yan para pong wala pong naitutulong yung perang pumasok sa negosyo po. 04:23:36.560 --> 04:24:11.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, okay, okay. Teka nakalimutan ko lang doon sa piki mong Kasi nung isang araw, yung testigo ng BIR tinanong tungkol sa hindi fully paid yung subscription ni Mr. Mances Carpio. At dahil hindi fully paid, tama ba bilang accountant at abogado and corporate law, walang na-issue na shares. At pag walang issued shares, hindi maililipat. 04:24:11.450 --> 04:24:17.950 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So yung BR po, ginagawa po nilang subscription pa lang eh, taxable na. Pero meron po siyang legal basis eh. 04:24:18.090 --> 04:24:18.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi 04:24:18.650 --> 04:24:28.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: titignan niyo po, definition of shares of stocks sa tax code. So yung definition po ng shares of stocks sa tax code, kasama na po doon ngayon ang warrants and options. 04:24:29.230 --> 04:24:29.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So 04:24:29.790 --> 04:24:35.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung warrants and options, wala pa pong binibiling shares of stocks dyan. Parang meron pa lang kayong right na bumili. 04:24:36.130 --> 04:24:36.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 04:24:36.690 --> 04:24:41.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung right pa lang ng pagbili ng shares of stocks, ay subject na. 04:24:42.650 --> 04:24:54.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Considered na na sale of shares of stocks. Yun pa kayang subscription agreement na meron na talagang nagsimulang sale. So yun lang po yung masasabi ko doon na medyo may tama po yung BIR sa treatment po nila doon. 04:24:54.610 --> 04:25:05.580 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. Pero from the point of view of I think yung questions ng defense, sinasabing pagka hindi pa fully paid, hindi pwedeng ilipat. 04:25:06.130 --> 04:25:07.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At tama naman po yun. 04:25:07.710 --> 04:25:08.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kailangan 04:25:08.310 --> 04:25:10.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yung iba naman po yung ownership. 04:25:10.490 --> 04:25:10.610 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So kung 04:25:10.610 --> 04:25:10.810 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: hindi 04:25:10.810 --> 04:25:16.790 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: pwedeng ilipat, yung paglipat sa PIKIMON, legal ba yun? Kung hindi pwedeng ilipat? 04:25:17.710 --> 04:25:30.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Lalo pong it will only prove the point na hindi po kalipat-lipat. Di po ba? Kasi kung hindi pa nga po bayad, tama lang pong manatili dito muna sa SALN. 04:25:30.390 --> 04:25:30.730 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: In 04:25:30.730 --> 04:25:36.430 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: other words, questionable yung paglipat sa PIKIMON-PIKIMON. Kasi nga, 04:25:37.300 --> 04:25:37.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not 04:25:37.780 --> 04:25:42.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: for that reason po eh. Yung wala po kasi talaga ako nakikita ng transaction. Well, 04:25:42.560 --> 04:25:44.340 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: in addition, di ba? Kung 04:25:44.340 --> 04:25:44.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi 04:25:44.560 --> 04:25:49.840 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: paid up, yun yung argumento, paano mo ililipat sa PIKI mong hindi pa pala fully paid yung subscriptions? 04:25:50.120 --> 04:25:52.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung title po. Lalong hindi malilipat yung title. 04:25:52.800 --> 04:25:53.100 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, 04:25:53.100 --> 04:25:53.980 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: yung title. Okay. 04:25:55.540 --> 04:25:56.800 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, yun. 04:26:02.740 --> 04:26:19.680 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, meron pa akong ilang mga katanungan. Oh! Sabi niyo kanina, may mga cash deposits. Did you mean cash and check deposits or just cash? 04:26:20.340 --> 04:26:21.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron din pong check deposits po. 04:26:22.140 --> 04:26:30.760 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: No, but you said earlier or yesterday, they were deposits in cash. That was your exact word to describe one of the transactions. 04:26:31.540 --> 04:26:33.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ano pong transaction po? 04:26:33.200 --> 04:26:44.230 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: I forget, but my point actually is... Meron ba kayong inventory? Ano yung mga cash deposits? Tsaka ano yung mga hindi cash deposits? 04:26:44.830 --> 04:26:51.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede po natin ipagawa po. Kaya po namin gawin. Pero wala po kaming inventory po ng halimbawa po yung inflow. 04:26:51.190 --> 04:26:51.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 04:26:51.750 --> 04:26:57.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: cash deposit po siya o deposit po siya by check. Pwede naman po natin ihiwalay po yun. 04:26:57.270 --> 04:27:01.190 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ang meron kayo, yung 41 million pesos withdrawal, cash lang 04:27:01.190 --> 04:27:01.850 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: po yung lahat. 04:27:01.850 --> 04:27:07.430 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pay to cash po yung ano. 23 million po na dalawang cheque po. 04:27:07.510 --> 04:27:07.610 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pero 04:27:07.610 --> 04:27:29.230 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: yung apat, cash ang winidraw. So totaling 41. So it would be interesting if you have the time to do it, to submit to us, yung ihiwalay yung cash dun sa check deposits para lang malaman, magkano bang umiikot dito sa kahit na doon sa 04:27:30.780 --> 04:28:00.970 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Punto lang na yun. So, we have an understanding. And then, dito sa bumagsak ng 80 million, ah, 80 million cash, naging 2020, bumaba sa 60, bumaba sa 24, umangat ng 43. That was also in your report. Pasensya na, medyo sa dami nung... Would you remember that? Ah, ito. Can we... Flash this on the screen. 04:28:03.230 --> 04:28:21.150 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: This is your table, I think. I put this together based on your information. So, various banks, spouses, 2022, 60,214,700,000. You confirmed that, no? 04:28:21.390 --> 04:28:22.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:28:22.210 --> 04:28:22.510 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. 04:28:23.190 --> 04:28:31.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tapos, tumangat, tumaas ng additional 20,000,000 noong 2023. Diba? Ending. Tama? 04:28:31.290 --> 04:28:32.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama pa. 04:28:32.650 --> 04:28:41.900 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tapos bumagsak ng 23 million noong 2024 na minus 60 million, almost. Tama? 04:28:43.140 --> 04:28:43.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama pa. 04:28:44.020 --> 04:28:44.420 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And 04:28:44.420 --> 04:28:48.200 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: yun siguro yung isa dun yung 41 million na tinanggal. 04:28:48.320 --> 04:28:53.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yan po yung ano, malaking factor po yung ano, yung naglimas po ng pera yung 41 million. 41 04:28:53.600 --> 04:28:54.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: million 04:28:54.080 --> 04:28:54.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yun. Tama po yun. 04:28:55.580 --> 04:28:59.240 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So that might explain it kasi August 6, 2024 yun, 04:28:59.240 --> 04:29:00.520 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: tinanggal yung 41 04:29:01.100 --> 04:29:05.640 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: million cash. Kaya pagdating ng end of 2024, 23 million. I 04:29:05.640 --> 04:29:07.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: agree po. Napansin ko rin po yan. 04:29:07.520 --> 04:29:23.960 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. And then finally, 2025, cash balance ending, umangat na naman. Another 20 million. But all of that, as you have said, hindi reflected dun sa kanilang audited financial statements as well as sa SALN. 04:29:24.400 --> 04:29:24.960 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Correct? 04:29:25.100 --> 04:29:26.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po reflected sa SALN po. 04:29:27.040 --> 04:29:28.420 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. Okay. 04:29:30.450 --> 04:29:33.410 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: I have no other questions at this point, Mr. 04:29:35.510 --> 04:29:37.170 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: President Officer. Maraming 04:29:37.170 --> 04:29:37.690 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: salamat po. 04:29:37.850 --> 04:29:42.590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Senator Judge Lacson is next. 04:29:44.740 --> 04:29:44.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 04:29:44.960 --> 04:29:48.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may proceed when you're ready, sir. Again, you have a variable period of two minutes. 04:29:48.760 --> 04:29:51.900 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you, Mr. President Officer. Magandang tanghali po, Atty. Alex. 04:29:52.240 --> 04:29:53.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang tanghali din po. 04:29:53.580 --> 04:30:24.830 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ang aking pagtatanong ay babase ko sa aking ginawang pakikinig at saka observation doon sa... Direct examination last Friday at saka yung cross na nangyari kaninang umaga at ngayong tanghali rin. Sa inyong ginawang pagsusuri, sa inyong findings and conclusions sa inyong forensic report, anong bahagdan o percentage ng reliance ninyo sa analytical assumptions versus direct or indirect references to documents? 04:30:26.100 --> 04:30:27.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Napakahirap na tanong 04:30:27.020 --> 04:30:27.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 04:30:27.380 --> 04:30:32.280 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: 0 to 100, 25 to 75, 50-50. Curious lang po. 04:30:33.670 --> 04:31:21.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Malaki po yung supported po ng documents po halos lahat. At ang talaga pong masasabi ko po na talagang hindi po masyadong malinaw na supported ng documents tulad din po ng nasabi ng defense, yung GenCorp po. Kasi ito pong GenCorp, hindi po natin kaya ditong i-take in isolation po yung mga related documents po. Kailangan po nating pagsamasamahin at gumawa po ng conclusion. Pero mahirap pong sagutin yung percentage wise po kasi po bawat aspeto po meron pong document at meron pong analysis po na ginagawa po namin. 04:31:21.940 --> 04:31:38.310 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Overall po, estimate lang. Palagi ko naman may knowledge kayo o naririgol nyo pa kung ano yung percentage na nilaan ninyo sa inyong report patungkol sa inyong analytical assumption versus yung mga dokumento. 04:31:38.810 --> 04:31:42.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I see. The dirty work and the analysis. Ayan po. Pwede po yan. 04:31:50.240 --> 04:31:56.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 50-50 po. Pero mga 60-40 po. 40 po yung puro analysis po. 04:31:56.990 --> 04:31:59.610 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: 40% yung naka-base o naka-refer. 04:31:59.870 --> 04:32:09.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang ibig ko po sabihin, 60% po ng oras eh nagkakalkal ka tapos parang nag-a-analyze ka ng 40% of the time. 04:32:10.110 --> 04:32:11.830 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Hindi po. Ang hirap po 04:32:11.830 --> 04:32:31.580 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: nastanong. Analytical assumption versus reference to documents. Whether direct or indirect references or reference to documents. Gusto ko lang pong makita yung yung naging frame of mind ninyo. When you finished or crafted your forensic report? 04:32:37.400 --> 04:33:09.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi po yung ano, kaya hindi po nyo maka-craft ng ganun po sa simula. Wala po kasi kayong prejudgment na hindi po predetermined yung ano eh. Na ito gagamitin ko dito, 40, ito. Hindi ko po malaman kung ano po yung makikita ko eh. Minsan po matulin kasi may document, minsan po. Wala pong document, medyo nagde-dead wall pero i-derive niyo po yung information or conclusion niyo dun po sa mga ibang related documents po. Asensya na po, Honorable Justice. 04:33:09.720 --> 04:33:10.380 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Sabi nga 04:33:10.380 --> 04:33:12.020 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: ni Atty. Christine, I can accept that. 04:33:12.950 --> 04:33:14.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sige po, salamat po. 04:33:15.050 --> 04:33:42.150 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Namaget niyo po sa tugon ninyo sa tanong ni Atty. Christine kanina na yung absence ng documents, evidentiary ninyo, medyo... Nilaro po sa aking isip na parang double H eh. Pag sinabi niyo yung absence of documents, ebidensya rin ninyo, ebidensya nyo pabor o adverse sa respondent? 04:33:42.290 --> 04:33:50.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po siya evidence kung ano po yung nakasaad sa dokumento pero evidence po siya ng behavior. 04:33:52.000 --> 04:33:53.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So doon yung po, 04:33:54.110 --> 04:33:56.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Bakit wala yun? Basic lang yun. Halimbawa po, 04:33:58.710 --> 04:34:55.900 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ito isang halimbawa kasi alam nyo nagsaliksik din kami sa sarili namin pero binasin namin doon sa mga exhibits yung mga nasumite at nasa pag-aari na ng korte na hindi nyo naisama o maaaring na-overlook ninyo o maaaring hindi nyo na kailangan sa inyong pag-analisa. Halimbawa, hindi ko na po iyahayag yung aming ginawang pagsaliksik at yung naging conclusion namin kung ito'y pabor ba o adverse or respondent. para ma-preserve lang yung impartiality o integrity at impartiality ng Korte. Sasarilingin ko na lang po yun sa paggawa ng aking desisyon, sa akin na lang po yun. Napakarami pong mga cheque. Napakarami na hindi naman nasama sa inyong report na ang mga payees ay mga personalidad na nung aming pinagtagni-tagni sa simpleng Facebook search lang, magkakaroon kayo ng konklusyon. 04:34:58.000 --> 04:35:24.960 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: So, napakarami po. At ang bawat cheque, mga six figures, six digits. Na pagka sino matotal nyo, abot talaga siya ng seven digits yung halaga. Pero wala po doon sa inyong report. Pero sinasabi ko lang po dahil hindi kami lumabas doon sa mga exhibits na naisubmite ng prosecution. At hindi ko alam kung iba galing sa defense. 04:35:28.980 --> 04:35:47.790 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Anyway, ito ho ba'y sadya? Dahil sa inyong sound judgment, sapat na sa inyong pagsusuri ang umabot sa inyo o kung umabot man natin ninyo na tinignan dahil sa sound judgment ninyo, tama na para makapaggawa kayo ng conclusion sa inyong forensic report? 04:35:48.050 --> 04:36:36.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, tulad nga po nung nasabi ko po kanina, ito po kasing forensic examination, pag nakapag-establish ka na, Pwede ka nang tumigil eh. Pero kung gusto halimbawa ng client, halimbawa po ang Senado, or prosecution halimbawa, na palawakin pa yung report, eh magpatuloy lang silang mag-submit ng documents at aming titignan para po mapalawak po yung base data po nung report. Pero doon pa lamang po sa nakita namin ay Sapat na po yung nakita namin para po masabing yun po lamang yung nakita namin, 817 million, dahil yun lang po yung nakita namin based on data and using a conservative approach po. 04:36:37.740 --> 04:36:58.190 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Sabi ko na nga, hindi ko na ipagbibigay alam sa aking mga kasamahan kasi pagka sinabi natin payees, pwedeng pabor sa respondent, pwede rin adverse. Kasi kung ito'y pabor dahil Bawas talaga ito sa kanilang naging gastos nila sa legal na pamamaraan. Ibig sabihin, pabor sa respondent. Pero sabi ko nga sa akin na lang yun. 04:37:00.220 --> 04:37:07.840 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Panghuli po, gusto ko lang banggitin na yung una nating pagtatagpo, at least sa aking mga staff, nung kayo'y 04:37:07.840 --> 04:37:17.100 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: pinadala ng Pricewater ng PWC para mag-voluntaryo ng inyong servisyo sa Yolanda. Nung ako po'y head ng OPAR, 04:37:19.510 --> 04:37:27.630 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Kasunod ng McKinsey, kayo po pinadala para tumulong sana sa audit ng mga PAPs, projects, activities, at saka 04:37:27.630 --> 04:37:27.810 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: mga 04:37:27.810 --> 04:37:28.070 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: plans. 04:37:28.390 --> 04:37:30.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ako po ang nagpadala po sa sarili ko po doon. 04:37:31.730 --> 04:37:38.330 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pero ang kumontak po sa amin, ginamit ko lang po yung price water, pero hindi po mismo yung price water. 04:37:39.250 --> 04:37:39.770 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Kasi 04:37:39.770 --> 04:37:41.870 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: yun po yung aming presentasyon. 04:37:41.950 --> 04:37:44.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero tama po kayo. 04:37:45.270 --> 04:37:49.590 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Maraming salamat po at pro bono rin po yun sa kaalaman ng ating mga nanonood. 04:37:50.330 --> 04:37:51.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Siyempre naman po. 04:37:52.700 --> 04:38:12.800 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Sayang nga lang po nabiten kasi wala akong implementation authority so naputol din yung ating engagement. Ibabahagi ko lang na nawala yung kanyang Mont Blanc habang nagipag-meeting. Nataranta po kami lahat dahil nakakahiya naman, nag-voluntaryo na walang pa ng Mont Blanc na pen. Yun pala nadala ng kasama nyo. Maraming salamat po. 04:38:13.360 --> 04:38:14.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang talas ng memo. 04:38:19.000 --> 04:38:54.440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Titigil niyo na po yung kwento niyo pagkatapos nakita sa ilalim ng kama. For the information of the senator judges, the senator judges can base their decision on the evidence, both testimonial and documentary. Insofar as documentary evidence is concerned, whatever the court admits after formal offer has been made. And it will be up to each senator judge. Which parts or aspects of the testimonial or documentary evidence they will be basing their decisions on once the final question is raised before them? Yes, Senator Judge Lacson. 04:38:54.440 --> 04:39:00.560 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Just to clarify, Mr. Presiding Officer, whether or not taken up during the trial. Whether 04:39:00.560 --> 04:39:04.260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: or not taken up by the testimony of a witness. Thank you. 04:39:04.340 --> 04:39:04.780 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you. 04:39:04.800 --> 04:39:23.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As long as it is part of the formal offer and duly admitted by the court. And we thank Senator Lacson. for his discretion insofar as limiting his and not mentioning any names that he got based on the evidence and record that his team researched on. Senator Judge Lapid is recognized. 04:39:27.170 --> 04:39:27.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. 04:39:29.450 --> 04:39:32.470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Alex, ganyang kakahalagang natestigo ah. 04:39:34.520 --> 04:39:39.640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Lapid is recognized. You have a variable period of two minutes as well, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. 04:39:39.800 --> 04:40:13.580 Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid: Maraming salamat po sa ating officer. Para po sa prosecution, para may tanong ko lang po. Tungkol po dito sa Article 2, marami na po tayong iba't ibang naging witness galing sa AMLA, sa Banko, sa BIR, at ang ating magaling na financial analyst. Marami na po kayong nabanggit na iba't ibang numero at mga batas at regulasyon at pamantayan. Sa simpleng tanong po. 04:40:15.600 --> 04:40:32.080 Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid: May pananaw ba kayo ng prostitution? At dapat mapansin, makuha, at maintindihan ng ating mga babayan mula sa napakaraming witness at dokumento na ipinakita ninyo sa amin. 04:40:34.100 --> 04:43:09.080 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Maraming maraming salamat po, Your Honor. Actually, nakakalula nga po yung mga numero at yung mga dokumento na nahiharap po namin sa Article 2. Ako po mismo, Kaya nga po ako nag-abogado dahil takot ako sa numbers. Pero pag titignan po natin kasi kung ano ba talaga yung pinakapuso ng Article 2. Sa tingin ko, ito lang po yun eh. Yung malinis na opisyal, walang tinatago. Ngayon, madali po kasing magpanggap ang isang opisyal na simpleng tao lang siya, kumakain lang sa karinderiya. Malinis, wala naman na tinatago sa SALN. Pero pagdating po sa issue ng Article 2 Unexplained Wealth, doon po tayo nagkakaalaman. Dahil ang titignan po dito ay hindi naman po mga testigo, kundi mismo yung mga dokumento at yung mga numero. Katulad po na nabanggit ni Atty. Cabrera, ang tinignan niya ay mismong mga bank records, mga records na galing sa AMLA. BIR records, SEC records and I believe may kasabihan po kasi ang mga accountant that the numbers do not lie. Ito pong mga bank documents for example ay hindi naman po dumaan sa kamay ng prosecution yan. Yan ay diniretso ng mga bangko dito po mismo sa hukumang ito. Kaya masasabi natin na they are independent facts verifiable by anybody. At the end of the day, sir, ang paniwala ko kasi ganito eh. This case is really not about VP Sarah Duterte as a person. To me, it's about the trust that the people reposed in her. Yung tiwala po na binigay ng sambayan ng Pilipino sa kanya. Para sa akin po, it's really not about her as a person. It's about leadership kung tama ba. Ang pamamahala at lalong lalo na yung katampatan o yung fitness ng isang mataas na opisyal na manungkulan pa. At pangatlo po, it's not about her as a person, it's really about accountability. At kapag kung ikaw ba'y binigyan ng kapangyarihan, lalong lalo na kung pangalawang pangulo ka at lumalabas na inabuso mo, ay dapat may pananagutan. Sana po nakatulong po sa inyo yung sagot. 04:43:09.080 --> 04:43:14.580 Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid: Marami salamat po sa paliwanag kasi tinatanong lang mga taong bayan tungkol yan. Marami salamat po. 04:43:19.540 --> 04:43:38.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge... Senator Judge Aquino is recognized. You may proceed sir. Ngayon wala nang pwedeng gumamit na pinapatanong ni Sen. Lito ha. Hindi na pwedeng gamitin yun. 04:43:39.550 --> 04:43:40.610 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Maraming salamat, Mr. 04:43:40.690 --> 04:43:40.770 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: President. 04:43:40.770 --> 04:43:42.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Aquino is recognized. 04:43:42.610 --> 04:43:45.310 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yes. Magandang araw, Atty. Alex. 04:43:45.790 --> 04:43:47.110 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So I 04:43:47.110 --> 04:43:56.810 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: want to focus on Table 39 sa ating report. Ito naman yung main table na nabuo po ninyo. Tama po, no? 04:43:56.910 --> 04:43:57.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:43:57.410 --> 04:44:13.050 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: This is the reference table. And may I request one of the lawyers to provide a calculator to Atty. Alex in case na kailanganin niya. Kahit sa telepono. Para lang handa siya. Okay, so we'll flash table 39 on the screen. 04:44:14.790 --> 04:44:25.770 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Huwag niyo daw po tingnan yung ibang mensahe ni attorney, baka kung ano makita daw niyo dyan. Sige, so would you say attorney Alex na ito yung main reference natin sa inyong report? 04:44:25.990 --> 04:44:26.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:44:26.590 --> 04:44:26.950 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. 04:44:28.710 --> 04:44:36.100 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And dito po sa inyong report, may parte po dyan na hango sa mga records. Tama po? 04:44:36.400 --> 04:44:37.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:44:37.340 --> 04:44:40.060 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: At meron pong hango sa mga record, pero meron kayong assumptions. 04:44:40.800 --> 04:44:41.290 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:44:41.290 --> 04:44:41.780 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Tama. 04:44:42.320 --> 04:45:05.170 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Would you say that, well, para sa akin po, meron kayong dalawang main assumptions. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. And kung meron kayong dagdag na assumptions, pwede rin pong banggitin. So first assumption is that si Vice President Sara merong 20% ownership ng GenCorp. 04:45:05.750 --> 04:45:06.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:45:06.670 --> 04:45:14.390 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And that's an assumption. Ibig sabihin yan, pwede yung 1%, pwede rin 50%, pwede rin 75%. Tama po, no? 04:45:15.250 --> 04:45:17.950 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po, pero assumption po na with basis po. 04:45:18.030 --> 04:45:22.550 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yes. And could you repeat again what the basis is? Para lang po malinaw sa atin. 04:45:22.930 --> 04:45:32.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. So yung kanya pong oath, ang kanya pong sinumpaang SALN, sinabi niya po na siya po ay isang stockholder po doon. 04:45:34.630 --> 04:46:34.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sa GenCorp po na GIS, wala po siya doon. So yung una po namin tinignan sa aming sensitivity analysis, ano ba itong mga relationship nila ni Jaime T. Cruz? At nakita namin na yung relationship nila way back 2007, meron pa pong ibang corporation na Davao. Ano nga ba yan? Davao Taizan? Meron pa pong isa na Davao New Royal Taizan Corp. Nung 2017, 20% din po yung pag-aari niya. Yung Metro City Chow po ay 20%. So yung unang tumakbo po rin sa isip namin, bakit niya ilalagay yung sarili niyang stockholder na sinumpaan pa? Doon po yung ano ba yung mga rule of thumb para matawag ka na... Ano 04:46:34.900 --> 04:46:36.420 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: po ba yung rule of thumb sa Tagalog? 04:46:39.890 --> 04:46:40.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang tanong po yan. 04:46:41.210 --> 04:46:44.390 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Parang pangkaraniwang ginagawa. Ano yung pangkaraniwang ginagawa? 04:46:45.450 --> 04:46:53.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Actually po, yung accounting rules po. Yung PAS po o na investments. 04:46:54.790 --> 04:46:56.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At saka po yung sa... 04:46:57.840 --> 04:47:04.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung significant influence po, nung nabuo po yan, galing din po yan sa experience po ng business community. 04:47:04.820 --> 04:47:05.420 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kaya 04:47:05.420 --> 04:47:24.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po siya nabuo. So ang threshold po niyan, pagka may 20% ka, may significant influence ka. And kaya naman po, maniniwala, okay po, may assumption po, kaya sinabi namin na may significant influence siya kasi vice president siya eh. Tapos si JTC, 04:47:24.750 --> 04:47:25.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: eh 04:47:26.270 --> 04:48:28.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Envoy sa China, subordinate ni President Duterte. Tapos ito naman po yung anak niya na vice president. So yung significant influence, meron po yung significant influence because of her position and long time relationship with JTC, with Jaime T. Cruz. At given yung kanya mga dating ownership sa kumpanya na kung saan silang magkasyosyo, kinopia po namin yun. Pero sabi ko nga po, conservative po yun. Kasi po kung silang dalawa po yung magkasyosyo, tulad po sa Metro City Chow, kung saan syosyo po sila doon sa Chow King, 80-20 po yun eh. Dahil yung iba pong mga accounts doon eh nominal. So kung sa GenCorp naman, si Jaime T. Cruz na siyang may-ari ng JTC Group of Companies, effectively siya yun, 55 siya doon. Kung partner sila ni BP Sara, 45 si BP Sara. 04:48:29.430 --> 04:48:30.030 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So 04:48:30.030 --> 04:48:31.430 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: in 04:48:31.430 --> 04:48:53.940 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: short, ang sinasabi ko ninyo, possibly anywhere from 20 to 45. Yan yung inyong expert analysis but that's also an assumption. Hindi kayo sigurado pero sa tingin ninyo, Anywhere from 20 to 45, posible. Okay. Yung pangalawang assumption po na ginawa ninyo is that lahat ng undeclared income, pinaghati-hatian. 04:48:54.500 --> 04:48:54.980 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Correct? 04:48:55.140 --> 04:48:55.300 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yung 04:48:55.300 --> 04:48:56.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: piercing the veil po? 04:48:56.600 --> 04:48:59.220 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: I'm not sure kung yan yung piercing the veil. 04:48:59.460 --> 04:49:21.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ito po yan. Pero hindi ko po siya tatawaging assumption. Marami pong rules na ginagamit po na maaari pong mag-lead sa piercing the veil. Yun po'y aking judgment. Pero yung judgment pong iyon ay meron pong malinaw na basihan. Pero kayo pong mga honorable senate judges po ang mag-de-decide po kung tama po yung gamit. 04:49:21.850 --> 04:49:38.560 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: But kasi posible namang yung undeclared income, posibleng pinang-invest sa ibang bagay, or posibleng pinambili ng ibang bagay, yung pinaghati-hatian siya itself is an analysis. I think ito rin yung mga tanong ni Senator Lacson kanina yan. 04:49:38.680 --> 04:50:01.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Pagpasensya nyo na po yung language ko po pero minsan po na oversimplify ko. Kasi ang hirap pong ipaliwanag ng piercing the veil ng hindi ginagamit yung corporation as a separate juridical personality from the owners of the corporation. Kaya sinimplehan ko lang po, pag hindi mo ipinasok sa negosyo, ibig sabihin, itatago nyo yun. At kung itatago nyo yun, alam naman itatago nyo yun 04:50:01.870 --> 04:50:02.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi paghahatian. 04:50:02.870 --> 04:50:03.970 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, question 04:50:03.970 --> 04:50:24.770 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Atty. Alex ah. So itatago ninyo, therefore paghatian, hindi ba pwedeng itatago ninyo at gagamitin sa ibang bagay? Or in your experience, in decades of experience, usually ba yung nakatago at hindi dineklara sa BIR ay pinaghahatihan ng mga may-ari, ng mga beneficial owners? 04:50:25.110 --> 04:50:25.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 04:50:25.310 --> 04:50:25.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 04:50:26.210 --> 04:50:26.770 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So 04:50:26.770 --> 04:50:31.290 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: ganun yun, usually. Kung hindi ka magtatago para mag-invest ulit sa ibang negosyo 04:50:31.290 --> 04:50:31.470 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: or whatever. 04:50:31.490 --> 04:50:49.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, hindi. Kaya po tinatago. Hindi po ganito yung mga kliyente namin pero ako po ay nakukonsult po sa iba't ibang mga bagay at marami na po siyempre yung natignan ng mga tax assessment cases etc. Pagka yan po ay hindi dinideclare kasi gusto po nilang palakihin yung income nila. 04:50:50.290 --> 04:50:50.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ito 04:50:50.810 --> 04:50:57.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po yun sa mga corporations po. Kasi po masyado pong mabigat yung tax. Kasi pag nagdeclare ka, may tax yun. So bawas 04:50:57.490 --> 04:50:57.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ka agad. 04:50:57.910 --> 04:51:05.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. At kung lumalaki yung income dahil nakailag sa tax, Eh, syempre po, paghahatian nyo yun. Kasi kung nasa loob po 04:51:05.890 --> 04:51:06.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yun ng 04:51:06.070 --> 04:51:08.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: corporation, i-declare po yun na 04:51:08.090 --> 04:51:11.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: dividends. Hindi na po kailangan i-declare na dividends. Wala po doon sa loob eh. 04:51:12.210 --> 04:52:00.290 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. So, let's go to table 39. And ito kasi gusto ko lang linawin. I'm sure nasa isip rin ito ng ibang mga center judge. Dito sa, we have the total undeclared cash, section 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Okay. Alin po dito yung based purely on bank records and based purely on the insurance records. In fact, yung insurance po is really more like an investment. Hindi talaga siya yung pangkaraniwang pag-iintindi ng insurance na parang meron kang makukuha pag namatay. It's really more like an investment kasi parang stocks pa nga yung iba. So, alin po dito? Aling section dyan yung galing talaga sa bank record? 04:52:00.490 --> 04:52:10.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung bank-based information po dyan, column 2, 3, 4, 5. Hanggang 5 po. 04:52:10.420 --> 04:52:11.760 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Can you mention kung section 04:52:11.760 --> 04:52:12.580 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: 1, section 04:52:12.580 --> 04:52:13.780 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: 2, section 04:52:13.780 --> 04:52:20.300 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: 3, section 4, or section 5? Siguro section 5 ba itong dulo? Parang baka typographical error ba yan? 04:52:20.420 --> 04:52:20.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 04:52:20.620 --> 04:52:20.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 04:52:20.880 --> 04:52:22.460 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Kasi parehong section 4? 04:52:22.600 --> 04:52:25.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi isa po yan na undeclared income from... 04:52:27.750 --> 04:52:28.710 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: owned companies. 04:52:29.230 --> 04:52:29.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ibang 04:52:29.710 --> 04:52:31.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kumpanya kaya section 4 pa rin siya. Pero yung 04:52:31.470 --> 04:52:43.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sasabihin ko lang po, pati po GenCorp is bank-based. So lahat po yan bank-based except po yung nakahiwalay po na GenCorp. Yan po kasi yung kakaiba na meron po kaming attribution. 04:52:43.330 --> 04:52:43.770 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yes, or 04:52:43.770 --> 04:52:44.530 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: the assumptions na 04:52:44.530 --> 04:52:45.070 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: sinabi natin 04:52:45.070 --> 04:52:45.370 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: kanina. 04:52:45.510 --> 04:52:45.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:52:45.970 --> 04:52:46.210 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So 04:52:46.210 --> 04:52:57.220 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: yung purely on bank... records na wala kayong ginamit na attribution or assumption or 20% or ganyan, anong section po yun dito? 04:52:57.600 --> 04:53:11.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yan po lahat. Except yung GenCorp po na merong attribution. Pero yung pong mga Cale88, Metro, City, siyempre po, gumamit po kami dyan ng piercing the veil. Okay. 04:53:11.740 --> 04:53:19.200 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Piercing the veil. Pero hindi kayo naglagay ng porsyentuhan? O yung porsyentuhan na yan mula sa GIS? 04:53:19.640 --> 04:53:20.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:53:20.520 --> 04:53:21.240 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So, 04:53:21.600 --> 04:53:33.740 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: if I'm not mistaken, ito lang GenCorp 55, 74, 82, 2023, 2024, 2025. Yan lang yung gumamit kayo ng... Assumption on ownership 04:53:34.020 --> 04:54:02.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. Pero Senator Bam, kaya ko pong ipaliwanag kung bakit po malakas yung, alam ko po yung gusto nyo pong puntahan, 817 minus 2-1-1. Pakicompute po, may calculator po. So sabihin natin 600 na lang po. Alam ko po natanggal po yung GenCorp ay 600 na lang po. Pero ito po yung ano, siguro po mahalaga pong masabi, Marami po kami hindi sinama dito na 04:54:03.340 --> 04:54:20.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dahil po napaka-controversial pero hindi po ibig sabihin na mali pag sinama namin. Una po dito yung confidential funds po na around 475 million during the two-year period. 04:54:22.260 --> 04:54:51.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: In respect of that po, yung Martinez versus Sandigan Bayan, pagka hindi mo na-liquidate yung Yung pondo na nasa iyo, meron pong pwede pong i-assume that it was used or malversed for personal use. Pagka yun po i-ginabi niyo for personal use, syempre po income po yun. So 475 po yun na kayang-kaya niya pong talunin yung mawawala po kung sakali na 200. 04:54:51.860 --> 04:55:10.680 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Attorney, huwag muna natin itindihin yung final number. Kasi the final number should be based on the evidence. Ang dating kasi parang pampalit. Wag ho ganoon. Let's just go step by step. So section 1, ito yung bank records. Tama ba? 04:55:11.560 --> 04:55:12.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Undeclared cash. 04:55:12.640 --> 04:55:13.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Cash po. 04:55:13.540 --> 04:55:14.380 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Undeclared cash. 04:55:14.700 --> 04:55:15.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ending balances po. 04:55:16.080 --> 04:55:21.540 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. Nang Sara Duterte, Man Scarpio, and any joint accounts. 04:55:21.940 --> 04:55:22.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 04:55:22.220 --> 04:55:22.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Okay. 04:55:22.840 --> 04:55:26.560 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yung section 2, ito yung mga, ano tong section 2? 04:55:26.580 --> 04:55:27.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Physical properties 04:55:27.340 --> 04:55:27.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 04:55:28.020 --> 04:55:31.340 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: physical properties na wala na hindi nyo mahanap sa mga sasariyan. 04:55:31.500 --> 04:55:31.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero 04:55:31.580 --> 04:55:38.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasama po dyan ang mga investments po at saka investments and insurance po nandyan din po. 04:55:38.840 --> 04:55:47.020 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Nandito na yun? Okay. So the insurance which is actually more like investments are personal properties. 04:55:47.280 --> 04:55:48.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Personal properties po. Tama po. 04:55:49.060 --> 04:55:51.420 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yung section 3, ano po yung section 3? 04:55:51.760 --> 04:56:03.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yan po yung outso po na hindi po napunta. sa personal properties or properties, physical properties at hindi po naiwan sa undeclared cash po. 04:56:03.700 --> 04:56:06.260 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So hindi pa rin ito yung sa corporation, si section 3? 04:56:06.420 --> 04:56:06.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi pa po. 04:56:06.980 --> 04:56:09.780 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: This is still based on the records sa mga banko, investment? 04:56:10.520 --> 04:56:18.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kanila po yan. Yung corporation po natin nagsisimula po dun sa next section. Ito pong Cale88 at Metro City. 04:56:19.640 --> 04:56:24.680 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Si Cale88 at Metro City, malinaw yung ownership. Tama ba ni Man Scarpio? 04:56:24.970 --> 04:56:25.850 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Wala po si Sarah 04:56:25.850 --> 04:56:26.250 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: dyan, no? 04:56:26.350 --> 04:56:30.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. Si Dr. Lebosada po yung partner niya po dyan. 04:56:30.350 --> 04:56:30.530 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. 04:56:30.900 --> 04:56:33.200 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And ito yung almost 50% ownership. 04:56:33.420 --> 04:56:34.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 47.5 04:56:34.500 --> 04:56:35.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: % each 04:56:35.140 --> 04:56:35.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 04:56:35.220 --> 04:56:43.320 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: In each metro, for Metro City and Cale88. So may basis kayo to compute yung undeclared 04:56:43.320 --> 04:56:43.580 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: income. 04:56:43.840 --> 04:56:51.530 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 20% po si VP Sara sa Metro City Chow. 47.5% po si Atty. Mans Carpio sa Cale88. 04:56:51.730 --> 04:57:01.290 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, so it's actually just GenCorp, itong pang limang column kung saan kayo nag-apply ng 20% assumed ownership. 04:57:01.650 --> 04:57:02.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:57:02.270 --> 04:57:08.220 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, so kung tatanggalin mo yun, yung may assumption kayo, paki-add nga ulit, magkano yun? Paki- 04:57:08.220 --> 04:57:09.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 211 po. 04:57:09.280 --> 04:57:11.060 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So pag i-subtract mo yun sa 817? 04:57:11.340 --> 04:57:12.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 606 po. 04:57:12.460 --> 04:57:16.280 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So 606 yung based on records. 04:57:17.930 --> 04:57:22.990 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: records of the bank, records of the insurance companies, records of SEC, 606 po. 04:57:23.290 --> 04:57:24.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 606 po. 04:57:24.590 --> 04:57:36.560 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And then yung natitirang 211, technically, pwedeng lumiit, pwedeng lumaki. Pag malaman natin kung magkano talaga yung ownership sa GenCorp, pwedeng lumiit, pwedeng lumaki yung 211. 04:57:36.680 --> 04:57:36.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 04:57:36.800 --> 04:57:37.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 04:57:37.160 --> 04:57:37.640 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Tama po. 04:57:37.720 --> 04:57:39.800 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Maraming salamat, Atty. Alex. Thank you. 04:57:39.920 --> 04:57:40.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Thank you. 04:57:46.210 --> 04:57:47.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Thank you. Ring ng ring. 04:57:51.840 --> 04:57:52.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Tapos na? 04:57:57.050 --> 04:58:02.740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Senate President is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have a variable period of two minutes. 04:58:02.940 --> 04:58:05.820 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon, Atty. Alex. 04:58:06.140 --> 04:58:07.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang hapon po, President Wing. 04:58:07.820 --> 04:58:41.320 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kikita mo naman gano'ng kahalaga yung testimonya mo at yung report mo dito sa impeachment na ito dahil yung tanong ay binigyan kami ng mas mahabang panahon para magtanong at mag-clarify ng mga items dito sa report. So yun ang gagawin natin, mag-clarify. At susundan ko yung mga tanong ni Sen. Bam dahil mahalagang maklarify ito. At pupunta ako dito sa GenCorp. 04:58:43.320 --> 04:58:53.760 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: At nakita ko dito sa GenCorp, basically ang sinasabi ng report mo na mas malaki ang perang pumasok kaysa sa sales nila. Tama po ba? 04:58:53.900 --> 04:58:54.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:58:56.100 --> 04:59:02.120 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So ang ibig ba sabihin yan na may perang pumapasok at hindi nila rin i-record as sales? 04:59:02.660 --> 04:59:03.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:59:03.540 --> 04:59:15.640 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pwede ba mag-iba ito? For example, loan, advances, or even pass-through, baka pinadaan lang yung pera doon. Pwede bang ganun ang nangyari dito sa GenCorp? 04:59:17.910 --> 04:59:23.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po talaga likely kasi dapat po i-record din po nilang payable. Bakit pa po nila inilalabas? 04:59:23.950 --> 04:59:25.390 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So wala kayong nakitang ganyan? 04:59:25.490 --> 04:59:25.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 04:59:26.070 --> 04:59:44.910 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So itong nakita ko dito sa report niyo, from 2022 to 2025, ang undeclared inflows ay 1 billion. Ibig sabihin, pumasok yung pera, 1 billion, pero hindi niyo nakita sa kanilang balance sheet or even sa kanilang income statement. 04:59:44.910 --> 04:59:45.610 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So 04:59:45.610 --> 04:59:54.100 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: dahil pumasok ito sa kanila, sinasabi niyo rin, na hindi sila nagbayad ng buwis. Tama po ba? 04:59:54.140 --> 04:59:54.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 04:59:54.620 --> 04:59:55.540 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: At magkano 04:59:55.540 --> 04:59:59.040 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: yun yung kanilang hindi binayaran na buwis dito sa GenCorp? 05:00:00.000 --> 05:00:01.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Basic po, 250 po. 05:00:03.090 --> 05:00:03.610 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Magkano? 05:00:03.750 --> 05:00:08.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ay sorry po, ginagamit ko na yung bagong rate na kahit at 25%, 250 million po. 05:00:08.330 --> 05:00:13.700 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So ibig sabihin ang GenCorp hindi nagbayad ng 250 million in taxes? 05:00:14.180 --> 05:00:14.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:00:15.520 --> 05:00:24.420 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. At sinasabi nyo rin dito sa inyong report, dahil hindi siya nagbayad ng taxes, pwedeng i-pierce yung corporate veil. 05:00:24.840 --> 05:00:25.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:00:25.720 --> 05:00:26.540 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tama po ba? 05:00:26.680 --> 05:00:26.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po yun. 05:00:26.880 --> 05:00:27.240 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So pag 05:00:27.240 --> 05:00:41.340 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: ganun po lalabas, Ang mangyayari ho, yung mga shareholders ang dapat, unang-una, yung shareholders ina-attributing income sa kanila, yung taxes, sila rin ang dapat magbayad. 05:00:41.380 --> 05:00:42.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:00:42.200 --> 05:00:42.580 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So 05:00:42.580 --> 05:00:51.060 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: itong 250 million in taxes, dapat ho yung mga shareholders magbayad prorated. 05:00:51.420 --> 05:00:52.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:00:52.480 --> 05:00:53.140 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tama, no? 05:00:56.820 --> 05:00:57.900 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Dito sa... 05:01:01.230 --> 05:01:14.520 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ang tanong ko ngayon, meron bang mga kaso o jurisprudence na ganun na ang ginawa? Na pierce yung corporate veil dahil hindi ho nagbayad ng taxes? 05:01:14.880 --> 05:01:15.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, marami pong... 05:01:15.960 --> 05:01:17.160 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Can you give 05:01:17.160 --> 05:01:18.900 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: us an example or cite a case? 05:01:19.120 --> 05:01:19.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Jurisprudence po? 05:01:20.240 --> 05:01:20.920 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Jurisprudence. 05:01:22.140 --> 05:01:28.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Medyo hindi ko po... Pinagandaan yung listahan po ng jurisprudence po sa piercing the veil kasi masyado po marami. 05:01:28.650 --> 05:01:28.890 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Itong 05:01:28.890 --> 05:01:35.510 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: particular case na hindi nagbayad ng taxes, kaya ang dapat magbayad ay yung mga shareholders. 05:01:35.990 --> 05:02:55.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Actually yung tax code po na in-adjust niya to 30%, meron pong isang kaso, hindi ko na lang po banggitin yung pangalan, na mas mababa po doon. Pero yung mas mababa po doon, pero hindi po siya naging fraud. Dahil po ang sinabi po sa kasong yun, gawa nung ipinakita naman lahat sa BIR ay hindi po na deprive ang government ng opportunity to find out kung ano po yung nangyari. And nakita po nila na may good faith po doon sa... under declaration. Yun po yung 20. Kaya po nung ginamit po yung case na yun, nag-develop na lang po ng 30 para wala na pong usapan, prima facie evidence of fraud po ang ginamit nilang basihan. Kung babasahin niyo po yung bagong tax code, ang ginagamit niya po, substantial under declaration. Pwede pa rin pong magkaroon ng piercing of the veil kahit po lower than 30%. Except pag 30%, mas madali na. Pero pag lower, pwede pa rin po. Yun po yung provision po ng tax code pag tinignan niyo po dahil nagsisimula siya sa substantial under declaration. 05:02:55.640 --> 05:02:56.380 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Doon 05:02:56.380 --> 05:02:59.240 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: sa nabanggit niyong kaso, anong kaso po yun? 05:03:00.800 --> 05:03:07.800 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Para rin makompare rin namin dahil importante itong ginawa niyong kagaya na sinabi ni... 05:03:07.800 --> 05:03:08.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede pong... 05:03:09.050 --> 05:03:12.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pagkatapos na lang po. Bigay ko po sa inyo yung pangalan. Baka magalit po. 05:03:12.570 --> 05:03:21.350 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Alright. Sige. Pero may kaso. Okay. Isupply nyo na lang yung GR number or yung case number. 05:03:25.070 --> 05:04:02.050 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Isa pa rin clarification. Dahil nga wala namang sa GIS yung pangalan ni... Vice President Sara. Pero nasa kanyang SALN itong GenCorp. At naiintindihan ko kung paano yung methodology na ginawa ninyo. At narinig ko rin kahapon sa sinabi nyo dahil napakahalaga yung GenCorp na importante yung declaration sa SALN. Anong basis nyo dyan sa statement na yan? 05:04:04.390 --> 05:04:11.490 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Meron ba kayong legal basis, again, jurisprudence na sabi nyo na mas mahalaga yung timbang ng SALN kaysa sa GIS? 05:04:12.030 --> 05:04:17.190 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, unang-una po, yung SALN po ay final po ng Vice President po. 05:04:19.540 --> 05:04:32.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pangalawang pinakamataas na may katungkulan po sa ating bansa. Pangalawa po, it's a statement under oath versus po sa mga private corporations po na nagpa-file na 05:04:34.480 --> 05:05:03.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong tulad ng consequence na maaari pong mangyari for erroneous document or erroneous declaration. Wala pong masyadong ano kasi sa SEC po, mababa lang po yung multa dyan kung meron man, kung merong inaccurate na i-file on JS. So dahil po yung consequence po magkaiba, ay mas Kinikilingan ko po yung isa po na may malaki pong consequence. 05:05:04.400 --> 05:05:05.340 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Which is the SALN. 05:05:05.580 --> 05:05:07.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung SALN po, under oath po. 05:05:07.140 --> 05:05:08.940 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Dahil personally, under oath yun. 05:05:09.180 --> 05:05:09.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 05:05:09.720 --> 05:05:09.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 05:05:10.060 --> 05:05:13.660 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Compared to the GIS na sinasabi nyo. 05:05:14.040 --> 05:05:14.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:05:15.120 --> 05:05:15.660 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: And 05:05:15.660 --> 05:05:46.620 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: then nakita ko rin dito sa report nyo na meron kayong mga bagay doon na tingin nyo na hindi naman mga nominees lang yung mga tao. I think tatlong tao, dito sa report niyo may tatlong tao kayong in-identify ng mga nominees. Paano niyo, ano ang basihan niyo na din-declare niyo silang, sa report niyo, in-assume niyo sila ng nominees? At ang totoong may-ari ay si Vice President Sara. 05:05:46.880 --> 05:06:46.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, si Jaime T. Cruz po kasi isa pong sikat na negosyante sa Davao. Pagka po... Ginamit po naming model yung Metro City Chow dahil fast food chain din po, Jollibee po yung nandun. Sila po yung magkasyosyo doon at ang nakita nga po namin doon ay 80-20. Kaya sinasabi lang namin kung sila rin yung magkasyosyo sa GenCorp eh 55-45 dahil 55 yung kay Jaime T. Cruz. At subalit po baka masyadong mataas po yung 45, bumaba po kami ng 20 at ang na-identify po namin na 20 ay si Richie Cruz na sa Metro City Chow po, 0.04% po yung pag-aari niya or nominal share lang po. Pero pagdating po sa GenCorp eh naging 20 po. So sabi namin ito, baka ito yung nominee niya, yung asawa po ni JTC. 05:06:48.940 --> 05:08:30.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero hindi lang po yung kinopia po namin tulad nga po nung naipaliwanag ko kanina. Ano ba yung merong sense na ba't mo nilalagay dyan? Diba? So parang sabi po namin kung mahalaga kasi kaya mo nilalagay dyan. And meron po siyang, kaya po inassume namin na using po yung accounting rules na 20, ang threshold, SEC mabrandom circular na attribute po ng ownership niya. 20% din po yung threshold. Tapos yung pong ano, yung pong sa Metro City Chow po, yung sa GIS niya po, na ang nakalagay po ay, sorry po, sa GenCorp po, ng GIS niya po ang nakalagay po ay JTC Group of Companies. Nag-violate po yun ng ultimate beneficial owner disclosure na isa pong requirement po ng SEC. At hindi niya po dinisclose sino po talaga yung ultimate beneficial owner na ang pwede lang po maging ultimate beneficial owner based on SEC rules is a natural person. So taking all that, kaya po napilitan po kami maglagay po rin ng motibo. Bakit hindi ka pwedeng mag-disclose sa GIS ng GenCorp. Kasi nga po, kumuka po ng kontrata yung GenCorp sa City of Davao. So yun lang po yung hypothesis namin kung bakit hindi po siya sinasama sa GIS pero nilalagay naman po niya sa SALN niya yung GenCorp. 05:08:31.490 --> 05:08:31.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 05:08:31.990 --> 05:08:42.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: may tagagawa po siya nung SALN niya, alam po siguro yung tagagawa na siya po yung may-ari. Tapos pinipirmahan niya po yun eh. So, baka po naging careless lang po. 05:08:43.130 --> 05:08:46.490 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kaya na-attribute yun kay Vice President Sara. 05:08:47.050 --> 05:08:47.730 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: At 05:08:47.730 --> 05:09:19.830 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: the same, tatalon lang ako sa isang company. Ganun rin nakita ko sa pag-analyze mo ng Metro City Chow na mas malaki rin yung pumasok na pera kumpara sa benta. Dito ang undeclared inflows ay 98 million pesos. So, kung 98 million pesos ang undeclared inflows, hindi niyo rin nakita sa kanyang libro kung ito ay advances, ito ay loan? 05:09:20.550 --> 05:09:37.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Oo po, wala po yan sa libro. Yung mga nasa libro po ay, ang ginawa po kasi namin, total inflows, tapos nag-compute po kami ng inflow ng kumpanya based on their statement of financial cash flows. Yan po yung 05:09:38.630 --> 05:09:56.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: main na document na ginamit namin. Tapos yung deprensya po, yun po yung kinonsider po namin undeclared. So, In other words, binanggan namin yung total bank inflows sa inflows per financial statements. 05:09:57.860 --> 05:10:04.880 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: And ganun rin na mayroon ding tax liabilities. May utang to. Kung 05:10:04.880 --> 05:10:08.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 98 po yun at halos 100 po, mga 25 million po. 05:10:09.160 --> 05:10:18.880 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: At ganoon rin, dahil mayroong utang, eh dapat may dahilan na ngayon i-pierce yung corporate veil. At 05:10:18.880 --> 05:10:20.200 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: ganoon 05:10:20.200 --> 05:10:29.720 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: rin, yung kanilang shareholder rin, ang dapat first i-attribute yung income sa kanila, at pangalawa, sila ang dapat magbayad ng 05:10:29.720 --> 05:10:30.140 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: utang. 05:10:30.760 --> 05:10:31.380 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Sa 05:10:31.380 --> 05:10:31.760 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: buwis. 05:10:33.210 --> 05:10:51.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung maaari ko lamang pong mabanggit, yung corporation po kasi wala po yung sariling puso at utak eh, at kamay at paa. Ang kanya pong utak, puso, kamay at paa ay nasa board of directors po at saka sa mga may-ari sa kanya. So yan po yung nagbibigay buhay sa corporation. 05:10:52.540 --> 05:10:58.600 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So ibig sabihin kung ang corporation ay hindi nagde-declare ng tamang sales, hindi 05:10:58.600 --> 05:10:58.820 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: rin 05:10:58.820 --> 05:11:02.280 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: nagbabayad ng tamang buwis, ay may kagagawa nun yung mga... 05:11:02.540 --> 05:11:03.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung mga may-ari po. 05:11:03.520 --> 05:11:03.600 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Directors. 05:11:03.740 --> 05:11:04.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung mga may-ari. 05:11:04.560 --> 05:11:04.940 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yung mga 05:11:04.940 --> 05:11:07.220 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: directors. Kaya pinipierce yung corporate veil. 05:11:07.320 --> 05:11:07.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:11:08.000 --> 05:11:13.900 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: All right. Pupunta naman ako. May tatlong corporation kasi nabanggit nyo dito. Dito sa Cale88. 05:11:15.960 --> 05:11:25.400 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ganun rin yung inyong analysis na meron 35 million pesos na hindi diniclear. 05:11:27.580 --> 05:11:28.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 05:11:29.180 --> 05:11:35.560 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ganun rin. May utang rin to. So magkano yung utang na buis dito sa Cale88? 05:11:36.680 --> 05:11:46.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 5 million plus po. 6 million po siguro kung ganun lang po yung undeclared. Pero 51% po yung under declaration. 05:11:48.600 --> 05:11:52.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At base lamang po sa nakita po naming dokumento. 05:11:57.380 --> 05:12:01.100 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Doon sa AMLAC report, nandito na tayo sa 05:12:03.280 --> 05:12:17.760 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: sa Cale88. Doon sa AMLC report, nakita namin na may 700 million na pumasok in terms of inflows. Pero dito sa bank 05:12:18.440 --> 05:12:32.880 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: inflows na, dito sa bank inflows sa report ninyo, 247 million. Meron bang possibility na recorded nag-AMLC pero hindi recorded? sa libro ng corporation? 05:12:33.520 --> 05:12:59.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung AMLC po kasi ano eh, nagtatag po siya ng transactions, cover transactions saka mga STR po. So hindi po possible po na, hindi po mali yung AMLC. Hindi po siya mali. Kasi yun po yung gawain niya, magtag po ng transactions. Pero kami po sa ginawa po namin, pati yung report pong yun na may nakita kami mga paired. or pairing. 05:13:00.090 --> 05:13:02.210 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pero nakita niyo yun yung 700 million. 05:13:03.070 --> 05:13:03.630 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Do 05:13:03.630 --> 05:13:04.650 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: you remember? 05:13:04.890 --> 05:13:08.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang naalala ko po sa AMLC report yung 319 eh. 05:13:08.370 --> 05:13:09.870 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: That's from the China. 05:13:10.150 --> 05:13:10.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, 05:13:10.710 --> 05:13:12.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: opo. Yung 700 parang hindi ko po. 05:13:12.710 --> 05:13:12.990 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Total, 05:13:13.010 --> 05:13:19.210 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: total na yun eh. That is China, other countries, tsaka iba pang mga inflows. 05:13:19.250 --> 05:13:19.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 05:13:19.890 --> 05:13:26.950 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So anong possibility na may pumasok, according to AMLC, may pumasok na 700, pero according to your report, 05:13:26.990 --> 05:13:27.650 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: uh 05:13:28.590 --> 05:13:36.960 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Inflows 247. What are the possibilities based on your expert based on your experience and expert opinion? 05:13:39.840 --> 05:13:54.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maari po kasing pumasok at matag once tapos po i-convert into a credit dun sa account matag twice. Pagka ganyan po tinatanggal po namin yung isa. 05:13:54.450 --> 05:13:55.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So 05:13:55.170 --> 05:14:05.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: maari pong magduda kami na baka magkaiba to hinati lang. Pwede rin po yun. Pero sabi ko nga po, doon po kami sa conservative ang lagi po namin ginagamit. 05:14:06.010 --> 05:14:09.750 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pwede bang pumasok, hindi pumasok? Kasi tinignan nyo yung bank accounts, di ba? 05:14:09.850 --> 05:14:10.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 05:14:10.310 --> 05:14:10.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 05:14:10.610 --> 05:14:19.090 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pwede bang natag sa Cale88 pero hindi pumasok sa bank accounts? Meron bang ibang way na pwedeng pasukan ang pera na hindi bank accounts? 05:14:20.980 --> 05:14:23.720 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Based on your experience and... 05:14:23.720 --> 05:14:24.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Bank 05:14:24.960 --> 05:14:47.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: account po yung papasukan. Otherwise po hindi po matatag ng AMLC eh. So bank account po yung pinasukan. Pero most likely po foreign currency account yung pinasukan. At alam po namin na may foreign currency account versus local bank accounts. Kasi compare po namin yun at magkaiba po yun. 05:14:47.930 --> 05:14:51.990 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So, it can be tagged twice in other words. Foreign and then peso. 05:14:52.030 --> 05:14:59.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pagka-convert po, possible po matag po ulit yun kasi kung ililipat po nila. 05:15:00.010 --> 05:15:00.530 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. 05:15:02.230 --> 05:15:39.950 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pupunta naman ako doon sa question ni St. Teresa on the, doon sa kiting, check kiting and or tinikling. Anong significance nito dito sa inyong report? May nakita ba kayong, kasi merong 90 million around 2010, 2011. Nakita natin may mga managers check na nag-expire. But ano ang inyong nakitang connection dito naman sa mga present transaction, itong mga last three years of transactions? 05:15:42.250 --> 05:15:46.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So kung titignan po natin magmula-simula, parang noon na po, 05:15:48.620 --> 05:16:05.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Time deposit po na hindi naka-declare. Tapos managers check po ang paraan para hindi po ma-declare. Tapos po naging investments na po na hindi naka-declare. So parang nagbabago po yung mode nila 05:16:05.750 --> 05:16:06.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: of 05:16:06.670 --> 05:16:13.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kung paano po sila mag-ano po ng asset, mamili po ng asset. 05:16:14.050 --> 05:16:15.350 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But it's the 05:16:15.350 --> 05:16:17.750 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: same 90 million na undeclared time deposit. 05:16:17.750 --> 05:16:34.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nag-ano po yan eh, na-convert na po to insurance yung 80, tapos yung 16.2, sinuli po kay Sammy Uy. Ay sorry po sa word na sinuli. Niremit po, binayad po kay Sammy Uy. 05:16:34.480 --> 05:16:39.520 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ok. But it's the same 90 million 05:16:39.520 --> 05:16:40.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na 05:16:40.540 --> 05:16:45.560 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: naging investment lang? At hindi rin na-declare yung investment na yun. 05:16:45.600 --> 05:16:45.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 05:16:46.040 --> 05:16:48.460 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yun ang nakita niyong relevance itong 05:16:48.460 --> 05:16:50.300 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 90 million. 05:16:50.560 --> 05:16:58.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sandali lang po. Parang na-declare po yung insurance po. Na-pick up po namin yun eh. Yung insurance na 80 million po. 05:16:58.960 --> 05:17:06.050 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. 80 million, was it declared or not declared? Based on your analysis. 05:17:11.430 --> 05:17:39.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi po yung... The way that we do it po, kinukompare po namin lahat po ng personal properties dito po sa na-declared po versus po dito sa mga personal properties po na hindi po declared. Kaya total po yung ginagamit po namin eh. So baka po, pagbalikan ko lang po yung detalye, makikita ko po kung specific identification kung kaya pero certainly yung totals po nun tama. 05:17:40.250 --> 05:17:42.150 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Sige po. Go ahead. Can you 05:17:42.550 --> 05:17:46.150 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Look at their notes para makita natin. 05:18:00.930 --> 05:18:05.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Honorable Sen. Wiena, hindi po pumasok sa SALN. 05:18:05.430 --> 05:18:14.210 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So hindi siya pumasok sa SALN. So in other words, in short, in time deposit na naging investments through insurance, hindi po pumasok sa SALN. 05:18:14.400 --> 05:18:14.700 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. 05:18:16.140 --> 05:18:16.580 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: And 05:18:17.190 --> 05:18:36.230 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: My last question, dito sa Finlash ni Senator Bam kanina, in total undeclared income of the couple, which is about 111 05:18:41.730 --> 05:18:42.010 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: million? 05:18:42.270 --> 05:18:42.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Fourth 05:18:42.610 --> 05:18:43.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: column po. 05:18:44.050 --> 05:18:44.510 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yeah, 05:18:44.530 --> 05:18:47.070 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: fourth column. Tama ba? 111 million? 05:18:47.430 --> 05:18:48.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Siguro po. 05:18:50.050 --> 05:18:52.740 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 62, 90, 05:18:55.410 --> 05:18:56.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 111, okay. 05:18:57.130 --> 05:18:58.210 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 111 million, tama. 05:18:59.330 --> 05:19:02.890 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ano ang source nitong income na ito? 05:19:04.520 --> 05:19:07.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Bank flows po, inflows po sa bank. 05:19:07.560 --> 05:19:13.820 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So pumasok to sa kanilang bank, the way you computed it, pumasok to sa kanilang bank accounts. 05:19:14.020 --> 05:19:14.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:19:16.580 --> 05:19:20.520 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 111, i-compute ko lang mabuti just to be sure. 05:19:27.360 --> 05:19:29.720 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tama, 111 million. 05:19:32.430 --> 05:19:33.650 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Anong source niya? 05:19:33.730 --> 05:19:59.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Honorable Win, para lang po for clarity po, kasi po yung pumasok po, meron pong natira sa ending balance ng cash. Tapos meron pong na-convert into properties, personal and real property. Tapos ito pong third column, effectively po, yan po yung outflow na hindi po namin alam kung saan pumunta. 05:20:00.070 --> 05:20:02.510 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yes. Ang first tanong ko, ano yung inflow? 05:20:03.680 --> 05:20:04.280 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Saan ang 05:20:04.280 --> 05:20:05.400 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: galing yung inflow? 05:20:05.480 --> 05:20:07.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sa bank records din po, sa statement of account po. 05:20:08.160 --> 05:20:09.000 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But ano ang source? 05:20:09.480 --> 05:20:11.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang source po niya ay deposits po. 05:20:12.410 --> 05:20:13.550 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Anong source ng deposits? 05:20:14.870 --> 05:20:15.750 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kasi considered 05:20:15.750 --> 05:20:16.650 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: niyo income eh. 05:20:16.690 --> 05:20:17.130 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So 05:20:17.420 --> 05:20:19.900 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: ano yung naging source ng deposits? 05:20:20.180 --> 05:20:26.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi maaari pong pagka po check eh, makikita po natin pero marami pong cash deposits. 05:20:27.360 --> 05:20:30.480 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. But hindi nyo alam kung ito galing sa negosyo? 05:20:30.580 --> 05:20:39.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po eh. Wala po tayong ganung klaseng dokumento eh. Kaya yung ginagamit po natin dito, yung principle of law. 05:20:41.420 --> 05:20:57.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Actually po, kung ano man po yung mga nasa bank accounts natin ngayon, pag may nangyari po sa atin, subject po yun sa estate tax, di po ba? Ganyan po kabigat yung presumption ng law eh na kung ano yung nasa bank account mo, ay sa'yo yun. 05:20:58.770 --> 05:22:11.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So kung halimbawa po yung nasa bank account po sabihin na held in trust lang yan eh. Kung held in trust yan eh dapat nakadeclare naman po yung liability. Kasi ang ibig sabihin po ng held in trust meron kang cash pero meron ka ring liability pero hindi po nakadeclare yung liability yun po sa SALN. At kung sabihin naman natin na Hindi, held in trust talaga yan. So parang kada deposito po held in trust. Parang naging bangko na silang pinagdideposito ng mga tao na lahat po held in trust. So parang hindi po kapanipaniwala na yan po lahat eh held in trust. So ang pwede lang po dyan ay maging income, payable, o kaya po donation. Pero sa isa pong vicepresidente, or public officials for that matter. Bawal po yung donation. Minimal value lang po yung pwede sa donation. In fact, ang sabi po sa batas in the course of work. I think, 05:22:12.890 --> 05:23:07.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: well, anyway. Ang sabi po sa batas is hindi ka allowed mag-accept ng donation unless nominal value Bawal pong mag-accept ng donation in the course of your work. Subalit ang vice-presidente po, ang pagiging vice-presidente po ay 24-hour job. Yan po yung nasa isip namin. Kahit natutulog siya, is vice-presidente po siya. Kahit po weekend, vice-presidente po siya. Nasa bakasyon po siya, vice-presidente po siya. Kasi po hindi naman po tumitigil yung... yung inyo pong obligasyon pagka kayo po ay naging vice-presidente. So na-rule out na rin po namin yung donation kasi bawal yun. So kung hindi yan donation, walang nakadeclare na payable sa SALN, ang manner na lang na pag-acquire mo dyan ay income. Yun po yung ginamit po naming proseso. Kung 05:23:07.120 --> 05:23:08.900 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: income yun, dapat may income tax? 05:23:09.980 --> 05:23:36.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Pero tinanggal din po namin yung mga ibang baka yung Pumasok po doon ay galing lang po sa kanya pong ibang bank account. Eliminated din po yun. So may mga eliminations po kaming ginagawa. But in principle po, yun po yung dahilan kung bakit po yung mode of acquisition po ng ownership na in-assume namin ay income. Yung isa po pala doon eh, pamana pero hindi naman po pamana yun. 05:23:37.310 --> 05:23:41.370 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kung income to, magkano ang income tax na kailangang bayaran? 05:23:41.830 --> 05:23:43.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Individual po, 35 po. 05:23:44.630 --> 05:23:46.970 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Dito sa 111 million. 05:23:47.130 --> 05:23:49.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 35 percent po. So 05:23:49.170 --> 05:23:55.110 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 30 million. More or less 35 million ang kailangan bayaran. Sa 05:23:55.110 --> 05:23:56.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 135 million. 05:23:56.530 --> 05:24:00.630 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you Atty. Alex for the clarification. 05:24:01.130 --> 05:24:07.810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Sen. Judge Camille Villar is recognized thereafter. Sen. Judge Pia Cayetano to avail of their first round. 05:24:15.040 --> 05:24:21.160 Sen. Camille Villar: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, and magandang hapon po, Atty. Cabrera. 05:24:21.320 --> 05:24:21.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang 05:24:21.600 --> 05:24:22.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hapon po, 05:24:22.060 --> 05:24:22.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ma 'am. 05:24:22.180 --> 05:25:36.920 Sen. Camille Villar: Yes, good afternoon. May mga konting clarificatory questions lang ako. Dito po sa inyong, dito sa forensic report po ninyo, ay sinuri ko yung iba't ibang mga tables. So meron lang po kung isang nakita, tapos gusto ko lang po i-clarify. Kasi unahin na lang po natin dun sa... Main amount, tapos kung paano tayo nag-arrive dun sa main amount. Dito kasi sa table 39, sa page 37, meron kayong linagay na total undeclared, hindi po ba? Tapos andyan po yung mga total, yan yung total na minimension ng lahat ng tao since kanina na ilang milyon. Nakita ko po, meron po tayong first column that's total undeclared cash. Then the second column is section 2 is the total undeclared other personal and real properties. Section 3 po, yun po ay under undeclared assets. Tapos under undeclared income naman po, section 3, merong total undeclared income of the couple. And then section 4 is the computed undeclared income of Calilung 88 05:25:36.920 --> 05:26:52.870 Sen. Camille Villar: and Metro City and then total computed undeclared income. So, ang napansin ko po dito, dito sa second section, section 2, itong total undeclared and other personal and real properties po, sa year 2022, ang amount po ay 76,147,730. So, forgive me, sinusuri ko po ito kasi napakalaki po ng amount. Habang naghihintay po ko, binasa ko po yung report nyo kung paano nyo na-derive kasi gusto ko po tingnan kung gaano pa ka-solid or saan po nanggaling ang ating mga numbers. So, binalikan ko po yung page 10 ng ating report sa interest in businesses. Tapos dito na, dito na natin pinag-uusapan yung GenCorp. Kasi yung section 2, sorry, Page 12 po pala. I found out that you were able to find yung total undeclared personal other than cash assets is you added the investments of in 2022, the insurance, hindi po ba? 05:26:52.870 --> 05:26:53.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:26:53.740 --> 05:27:10.330 Sen. Camille Villar: And then yung firearms, wala po. And then itong interest in businesses, di ba? Tapos sinubtract niyo po yung nasa SALN. Kaya po kayo nag-arrive sa 76,147,730. Ito po yung sa page 12. 05:27:10.550 --> 05:27:11.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Okay. 05:27:11.930 --> 05:27:39.330 Sen. Camille Villar: So ito naman pong 76 million ay forms is composed of, yun nga, yun ang sinabi natin. Ito naman... Section C, yung interest in business na 44 million. Ang in-add niyo po yung paid up capital and advances from shareholders. So this is on table 14, page 10. Hindi po ba? 05:27:39.630 --> 05:27:40.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:27:40.570 --> 05:27:41.210 Sen. Camille Villar: So 05:27:41.210 --> 05:28:06.590 Sen. Camille Villar: nakalagay po dito, 2022, ang paid up capital po ay 35,359,375. Advances from shareholders is 8,787,500. Tapos ang sinabi niyo pong total interest in business na hindi na-declare is 44,146,875. Hindi po ba? 05:28:06.590 --> 05:28:07.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:28:07.090 --> 05:28:22.240 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay. Okay, so hindi ko na po masyadong natingnan yung advances from shareholders pero nakita ko po yung sa paid capital in 20, paid up capital of 2022 of 35,359,300. 05:28:25.180 --> 05:28:44.030 Sen. Camille Villar: 359,375 pesos. So dito po naintindihan ko po yung sa year 2022, this is table 15 naman po, ang linagay niyo pong paid up capital by VP Sara is 300,000 pesos po. And I suppose, did you get this from the GIS? 05:28:44.030 --> 05:28:44.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 05:28:44.810 --> 05:28:50.850 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay. And yung ano po, yung paid up capital po by the spouse? 05:28:51.790 --> 05:28:52.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sa GIS din po. 05:28:52.730 --> 05:29:15.570 Sen. Camille Villar: Sa GIS din po. Okay po. Yung calculated capital contribution to GenCorp na 35 million, nabasa ko po dito na yung nabasa ko po dito is una you found out through receipts na GenCorp owns five Jollibee branches throughout Davao. Hindi po ba? 05:29:15.570 --> 05:29:15.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:29:16.030 --> 05:29:16.830 Sen. Camille Villar: Yes. So 05:29:16.830 --> 05:29:35.470 Sen. Camille Villar: okay naman yun. Pero itong 35 million po na ito ay basically hinanap niyo po sa internet sa Jollibee website po. At nakita niyo na a franchise would cost anywhere between 35 to 55 million. 05:29:35.470 --> 05:29:36.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:29:36.010 --> 05:30:12.740 Sen. Camille Villar: Yun po, hindi po ba? Tapos, yeah, it said... I read here you said desktop research from Jollibee's official website shows an initial franchise between 35 to 55 million and then you conservatively assigned 35 million pesos, right? So ang way of computing niyo po is Sabi niyo, 35 million. Inestimate niyo from the website na 35 million ng isang franchise, minotiply niyo po by 5, so 175 million. And then you assumed. 05:30:13.320 --> 05:30:13.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 20%. 05:30:13.880 --> 05:30:14.200 Sen. Camille Villar: You 05:30:14.200 --> 05:30:15.900 Sen. Camille Villar: deduced. And how did you deduce this? 05:30:17.020 --> 05:30:34.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yun po. Yung tulad po nung napaliwanag ko po kanina, ginamit po namin yung 20% attributed rate. Dahil po sa maraming factors po. Yung relationship po nila ni Jaime Tan. But this 05:30:34.360 --> 05:30:36.900 Sen. Camille Villar: isn't in the GIS or there's no paperwork. 05:30:37.500 --> 05:30:38.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Walang 05:30:38.060 --> 05:30:38.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: paperwork po 05:30:38.840 --> 05:30:46.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na nagsasabi. Kung makikita niyo po, hudyat po yan eh. Sa report, nakaiwalay po si GenCorp. 05:30:46.680 --> 05:30:47.080 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay. 05:30:47.200 --> 05:30:54.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ba't po namin gagawin? Kasi po binibigay po namin sa mga judges, honorable senator judges, ang pagkakataon. 05:30:54.720 --> 05:30:55.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 05:30:55.160 --> 05:30:57.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: gusto niyo po itong pick-up-in o hindi. 05:30:57.200 --> 05:31:12.420 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay. Alright. So ang caveat mo doon is that you estimated. Ito po yung estimate based on your maybe expertise. Ito po yung amount na sinasabi niyo na... 05:31:12.420 --> 05:31:18.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po siya estimate in the sense of an estimate. Ano po siya? Sensitivity analysis po. 05:31:19.140 --> 05:31:21.760 Sen. Camille Villar: How did you do the sensitivity analysis? 05:31:21.860 --> 05:31:45.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung sensitivity analysis po, alimbawa po yung patay po at mainit-init pa, parang matatansya mo yung kung kailan siya namatay, kung kailan nag-efect yung lason. So, ito naman po, yung sensitivity analysis, kailangan po namin balikan yung historical facts, yung kanila pong partnership with Jaime T. Cruz, etc. 05:31:45.410 --> 05:31:45.930 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay, 05:31:46.730 --> 05:32:28.900 Sen. Camille Villar: so yun yun. So, based on your sensitivity analysis, yun lang naman, kaya po 20%, kaya po 35 million po ang linagay niyo sa... 35 million po, yun po. Pero dun po sa 35 million, for example, kasi balik po tayo sa paano natin even na-estimate na 35 million yung in-invest sa isang Jollibee. Kasi pwede naman pong 35 million, pwede din naman pong nakalagay dito, pwedeng 55 million. Do you know kung anong taon po binuksan yung limang stores? 05:32:30.270 --> 05:32:35.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron po kaming, wala po kaming data on kailan po siya binuksan. Pero 05:32:35.070 --> 05:32:35.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ang 05:32:35.730 --> 05:32:41.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ginamit po namin, kaya po namin tinawag na conservative, kasi yung 35 million po, yun po 05:32:41.370 --> 05:32:49.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung pinakamababa ng Jollibee. Tapos kung ang pag-uusapan lang po natin ay strictly capital, hindi pa po tapos ang 35 million. 05:32:49.130 --> 05:32:49.210 Sen. Camille Villar: O 05:32:49.210 --> 05:32:55.970 Sen. Camille Villar: kaya lang po naisip ko po, halimbawa, sa 2022 ba binuksan yung unang Jollibee? 05:32:56.970 --> 05:33:04.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Medyo hindi ko po alam ang data. Kaya po nalansya po. Pero ito po yung point dito eh. At nabanggit ko rin po kanina. 05:33:04.870 --> 05:33:04.990 Sen. Camille Villar: O 05:33:04.990 --> 05:33:06.590 Sen. Camille Villar: pero yun lang naman po ang tanong ko. 05:33:06.930 --> 05:33:07.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Salamat po. 05:33:07.370 --> 05:33:07.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yun po 05:33:07.590 --> 05:33:08.310 Sen. Camille Villar: estimate lang 05:33:08.310 --> 05:33:08.810 Sen. Camille Villar: naman po. 05:33:09.610 --> 05:33:10.170 Sen. Camille Villar: Sige po. 05:33:10.350 --> 05:33:10.790 Sen. Camille Villar: Yun 05:33:10.790 --> 05:33:12.430 Sen. Camille Villar: lang naman. Parang that's your estimate. 05:33:12.470 --> 05:33:13.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Conservative estimate po ang tawag ko po. 05:33:13.610 --> 05:33:14.150 Sen. Camille Villar: Yes, that's your 05:33:14.150 --> 05:33:14.630 Sen. Camille Villar: conservative 05:33:14.630 --> 05:33:19.030 Sen. Camille Villar: estimate. So it could be less, it could be more. 05:33:19.330 --> 05:33:23.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: It could be more, it couldn't be less. Yun po yung estimate ko. Kung mali po yun, mali. 05:33:23.170 --> 05:33:24.110 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay, okay. 05:33:24.540 --> 05:33:25.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kaya kung po tinatawag na conservative, 05:33:26.320 --> 05:33:26.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi 05:33:26.860 --> 05:33:32.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po bababa dun ang value po nung investment niya po. 05:33:32.600 --> 05:33:37.580 Sen. Camille Villar: Are you sure? Can you say with certainty na hindi bababa sa 35 million? 05:33:37.580 --> 05:33:40.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po bababa yung value po nung investment niya po. 05:33:41.970 --> 05:33:50.610 Sen. Camille Villar: E paano kung she acquired it for less? The company acquired it for less. Actually, Gencorp acquired it for less. 05:33:52.700 --> 05:34:10.210 Sen. Camille Villar: Certain po ba tayo na less than 35 million yung na-invest nila, na-invest nung kumpanya? And if you wanna pierce the corporate veil, maybe even the respondent, but perhaps that's a reach. 05:34:10.610 --> 05:34:32.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung pinagbabasayan ko po na hindi po bababa kasi po marami pa pong kailangan. Ang isang kumpanya po sa pag-start po. Yun lang po yung basis. In-explain ko lang po kung ano po yung ibig sabihin ng conservative approach. Ang ibig sabihin ng conservative, tingin ko na po, yan na po yung pinakamababa. Kung mali po ako, ay mali po ako. 05:34:32.390 --> 05:34:32.870 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay. 05:34:33.020 --> 05:34:52.910 Sen. Camille Villar: So that's your opinion po. So that's your conservative estimate. But wala po tayong document. or anything na nakita like a agreement between GenCorp and Jollibee as to the total investment that was made or the acquisition. Meron po ba tayong nakita ganun? 05:34:52.930 --> 05:34:57.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po Honorable Judge Villar, tsaka kulang po ang oras eh. Kulang po ang oras talaga. 05:34:57.330 --> 05:34:59.750 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay, so yun lamang po. 05:35:02.000 --> 05:35:05.040 Sen. Camille Villar: Meron po ba tayong any other... 05:35:09.880 --> 05:35:30.920 Sen. Camille Villar: document po na nakita other than the receipts that we used. I know you estimated based on your analysis, your sensitivity analysis. I'm just asking if there was any document used that we saw that could further strengthen yung calculated capital niyo po. 05:35:31.160 --> 05:35:31.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala na po. 05:35:32.080 --> 05:35:35.100 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay, wala na po. So, in effect, 05:35:36.970 --> 05:35:59.230 Sen. Camille Villar: So, at least with this column, at least for year 2022, dun po sa calculated capital contribution of GenCorp na falls under interest in businesses and that forms part of the total undeclared personal and other cash, this is based on your analysis. 05:35:59.430 --> 05:36:00.190 Sen. Camille Villar: So 05:36:00.190 --> 05:36:05.170 Sen. Camille Villar: wala po tayong document na nagsasabi kung magkano talaga. 05:36:05.370 --> 05:36:08.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong malinaw na document na nagsasabi kung 05:36:08.310 --> 05:36:30.070 Sen. Camille Villar: magkano yung contributed ng GenCorp. And for that matter, I saw nga po na dun po sa audited financial statements of GenCorp ay mababa rin yung income nila after. Hindi po tayo sure, pwedeng inutang po, pwedeng nanggaling from somewhere else, pwede po yun, pero hindi po tayo sure. 05:36:30.470 --> 05:36:34.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, pero yung mababa po yung income nila after, doon po kami may malaking katanungan. 05:36:35.010 --> 05:37:06.520 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay, well tinatanong ko lang, yun lang naman, I can end there. So, again, I just wanted to highlight that at least pertaining to the 2022 calculated capital contribution to GenCorp na 35 million, wala po tayong document. Proving that. And you cannot say with certainty and as a fact na yun ang na-contribute na capital sa GenCorp nung respondent. 05:37:06.520 --> 05:37:07.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Atribution po. 05:37:07.480 --> 05:37:08.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Attributed capital lang 05:37:08.680 --> 05:37:13.520 Sen. Camille Villar: po. Yun lang. So, hindi po kayo sure. So, yun lamang po. Maraming salamat po. 05:37:13.800 --> 05:37:17.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Camille. What is the pleasure of the Honorable Diokno? 05:37:18.440 --> 05:37:27.300 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: I just know if the witness would need to take a bathroom break or stretch his legs before we continue. If that is okay with the Honorable Court and the defense. 05:37:28.860 --> 05:37:33.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maraming salamat po, Honorable Shell. I'm okay po, Honorable Presiding Officer. 05:37:34.040 --> 05:37:36.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kung saka-sakali po, magsabi lang kayo. 05:37:36.260 --> 05:37:37.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maraming salamat. 05:37:37.040 --> 05:37:39.920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Dahil may mga iba papuntis di kong gagamit niyang witness box. 05:37:40.280 --> 05:37:42.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maraming salamat po. 05:37:43.020 --> 05:37:44.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Magsabi po kayo at huwag kayo mag-atubili. 05:37:45.010 --> 05:37:45.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yes, 05:37:48.210 --> 05:38:03.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Pia Cayetano is recognized. You may proceed ma'am when you're ready. You have a parable period of two minutes thereafter to avail of the first round. Senator Judge Padilla before the senator judges avail of their second round. 05:38:19.340 --> 05:38:45.280 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Ako naman ang magtatanong sa ating council baka kailangan nila ng kape because they were under the misimpression when we checked how they were a few days ago na bawal ang kape para sa kanila. So kayong magdalawang isip magpabili ng kape. Siguro naman, Senate President, pwede naman ilibre ng kape. Ang ating mga, mayroon ho bawal yun. So honestly, it's... 05:38:45.280 --> 05:38:47.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Take note, the Senate President was asked. 05:38:47.950 --> 05:38:50.410 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: was asked and take note there is no answer. 05:38:53.350 --> 05:38:53.810 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Dear 05:38:53.810 --> 05:39:09.150 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: colleagues, kahapon lang sila nag-umpisa magkape kasi akala nila hindi sila pwedeng magpasok ng kape so really apologize for that. I know long hours at the least you can drink some coffee or tea. So I'll proceed. Thank you Mr. Witness. Thank you for your time. 05:39:09.350 --> 05:39:10.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maraming salamat rin po. 05:39:10.670 --> 05:39:27.890 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: We appreciate your choosing to participate here in these proceedings. And like we said, I'm a proponent of standing, having a bathroom break, having water. Baka ubos na po. Can our page check? 05:39:28.290 --> 05:39:31.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maraming salamat po sa Honorable Pia po. 05:39:32.450 --> 05:39:36.830 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Madali lang po sa inyo yung mga tanong ko kasi you are always admired. 05:39:38.700 --> 05:39:54.520 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: CPA lawyers. We are both lawyers. So, madali ho. I don't even know. Pakapasadahan ko lang sa legal concepts. Very simple. But you will have to help me out with the accounting principles because I am not a accountant. 05:39:58.470 --> 05:40:44.610 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Sa economics, my undergrad, three units lang ang accounting. But I've always been fascinated with business. So, I'll be asking a few clarificatory questions. So, Mr. Witness, in page 10, and I've asked my staff to load it so that it's easy for everyone to understand when I make reference to a table, but I also have a copy in my laptop. So, in page 10 of your forensic report, Table 15, it shows the paid-up capital by VP in Column 2, paid-up capital by spouse in Column 3, calculated capital contribution to GenCorp in Column 4, and the total paid-up capital in Column 5. You can confirm that naman po sir, that's from you. 05:40:47.240 --> 05:41:13.480 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: There may be some redundancy in my questions similar to Senator Camille's but di naman kami nag-usap so narinig ko lang. Medyo iba yung questions ko but it's around this topic. And earlier, you also had mentioned that based on your own, I think the term you used was desktop research. I think you used that term. The minimum total investment in a Jollibee franchise is 35 million. 05:41:13.480 --> 05:41:13.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 05:41:13.660 --> 05:41:13.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pa. 05:41:13.900 --> 05:41:15.000 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Yes. And 05:41:16.620 --> 05:41:37.240 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: In table 15, again, the fourth column, you calculated that the VP's capital contribution to Gencor for 2022 is 35 million, for 2023, the same amount, 2024, the same amount, until 2025. So every year, 35 million. That is what it says, no? 05:41:37.440 --> 05:41:37.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:41:38.020 --> 05:41:38.400 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay. 05:41:43.770 --> 05:41:57.730 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So are you basically saying that the entire Minimum total investment for a Jollibee franchise, SEVP ang nagsalo. Yun ang theory nyo. Kasi 35... 05:41:57.730 --> 05:42:00.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. Effectively po. Kung lima lang po yun. 05:42:00.990 --> 05:42:01.650 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Kung lima. 05:42:01.650 --> 05:42:02.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung lima lang po yun. Apo. 05:42:02.970 --> 05:42:27.050 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Pero sir, in the same report, or at least verbally, kasi I did have a copy of the annexes when you were testifying yesterday. I only saw it today. You said... Well, you also testified that there is no evidence on paper showing the percentage of ownership of the VP in Gencor. 05:42:27.250 --> 05:42:28.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's correct po. 05:42:28.850 --> 05:42:44.410 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Because she declared an interest in Gencor in the SALN but wala namang percentages doon and then silent naman ang General Information Sheet or the GIS. Her name is not there. So silent. 05:42:44.430 --> 05:42:44.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's correct. 05:42:44.990 --> 05:43:09.720 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So wala tayong basis. At least wala that you have found so far. And now please correct me if I understood correctly. Therefore, you assumed that using another corporation, Metro Food Corp, if I remember correctly, where she has a 20% stake, you used the same percentage because similar yung mga stockholders in both companies. 05:43:09.720 --> 05:43:10.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po 05:43:10.770 --> 05:43:13.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: but not only for that reason po. 05:43:13.290 --> 05:43:16.970 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Ano yung pakidagdag da rin huwi para maintindihan ko yung way of 05:43:16.970 --> 05:43:17.210 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: thinking niyo? 05:43:17.210 --> 05:43:18.430 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So yung Metro 05:43:19.040 --> 05:43:26.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: City Chow is one and yung Davao Royal Taipan is another one where she had 20%. 05:43:26.320 --> 05:43:27.220 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: With 05:43:27.220 --> 05:43:28.800 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: identical 05:43:28.800 --> 05:43:30.440 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: stockholders? 05:43:30.740 --> 05:43:33.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not identical po pero partner niya po si Jaime Tan. 05:43:33.680 --> 05:43:34.620 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So yun yung main, 05:43:34.680 --> 05:43:36.760 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: yun yung common? Yun yung main na. 05:43:36.900 --> 05:43:37.500 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So 05:43:37.500 --> 05:43:45.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: susundan po natin yung relationship nila. At yung rules po sa accounting po na significant influence po. 05:43:45.560 --> 05:43:46.560 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: What does that mean, 05:43:46.600 --> 05:43:47.280 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: sir? Yan. That's 05:43:47.280 --> 05:43:47.740 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: why you have to 05:43:47.740 --> 05:43:47.920 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: help me out. 05:43:47.920 --> 05:43:52.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So pag 20% po yung ownership mo, doon ka nagkakaroon ng significant influence. 05:43:52.720 --> 05:43:52.740 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Ayan, 05:43:52.740 --> 05:43:53.060 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: you did mention 05:43:53.060 --> 05:43:53.300 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: that. 05:43:53.680 --> 05:44:39.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tapos tinignan namin yung ano, kung ilalagay mo yung na stockholder ka sa isang corporation, siguro po hindi 1% share kasi mahalaga po sa kanyang ilagay yung stockholder siya doon sa GenCorp po. Tapos kung yung sa substance naman po, katakataka ba na magkaroon siya ng significant influence? Vice President and matagal na nilang kilala tong si Jaime Tan. So parang hindi po katakataka na para makonsider siyang partner ni Jaime Tan Cruz, meron siyang significant influence. Kaya 20 po yung ginamit namin. 05:44:42.150 --> 05:44:57.720 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Sir, I understand the use of the term significant influence. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, you're saying once na ma-establish mo yung tao ay may significant influence or interest? 05:44:58.660 --> 05:44:59.380 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: What is 05:44:59.380 --> 05:45:00.320 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: the correct term? 05:45:01.720 --> 05:45:05.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Significant interest po siguro. Okay. Baka napapagod na po ako. No 05:45:05.660 --> 05:45:15.820 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: problem. It's okay. Ako nga yung nalilito eh. So, significant interest. So, all you're saying naman po is, aba, pag nakita natin na yung isang tao, may interest siya doon. 05:45:15.900 --> 05:45:19.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ma'am, sorry po. Mali po ako. Significant influence po. 05:45:19.400 --> 05:45:19.740 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay, sure. 05:45:20.060 --> 05:45:40.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero yung sa SEC po, ownership lang po. Ownership naman siya. Yung sa ultimate beneficial owner, pagka po 20%, Dapat pong i-report na ultimate beneficial owner po. SEC circular, memorandum circular number 15. 05:45:40.970 --> 05:46:11.650 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: No problem with the number, hindi na natin may namemoration but kudos to you na nare-remember nyo pa yan. Anyway sir, you're establishing certain terms but I don't think you've answered the question na How did you come to that conclusion na meron siyang significant influence? Just because you have significant influence in one corporation, what doctrine can you cite that would state that automatic may significant influence ka din dun sa isang corporation? May ganun ho ba? 05:46:12.090 --> 05:46:13.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong ganung doctrine. O 05:46:13.970 --> 05:46:14.410 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: yun na nga. 05:46:14.490 --> 05:46:15.110 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So yun 05:46:15.110 --> 05:46:15.490 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: din po talaga sir. 05:46:15.490 --> 05:46:17.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sensitivity analysis po yung ginamit po namin 05:46:17.810 --> 05:46:25.370 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: doon. Because sir, ang sa akin lang naman po, it's not unlikely, or let me ask you the question kasi my opinion doesn't really matter. 05:46:28.250 --> 05:46:39.910 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Isn't it possible for an investor to have a 5% interest in one corporation, 20% in another, 90% in another? Is that not also a possibility? 05:46:40.970 --> 05:46:44.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Possible po. Possible po yung lahat yung sinasabi niya. Possible po yung lahat. 05:46:44.610 --> 05:47:10.980 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So I'm just, sir, having a problem coming to the same conclusion as you na 20% yung holding niya sa GENCOR. Kasi it could be less, it could be more. I'm having a little bit of a problem assuming why. Kasi I remember I'm taking everything you're saying very seriously na dun lang kayo sa minimum na sure kayo, yun lang ipapasok nyo sa assumptions nyo. But I don't know how you came to that 05:47:10.980 --> 05:47:12.780 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: minimum 20%, sir. 05:47:12.780 --> 05:47:35.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi po kung ako po si Jaime Tan, tapos pa-partner ko po si Baby Sara, ang City Chow po at saka ang Gen Corp po ay pareho po ng nature po ng business, fast food business. 20 po siya dito sa kabila. Tapos partner ka sa akin dito pero hindi kita bibigyan ng malaki. Parang hindi po. 05:47:35.780 --> 05:47:36.140 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: E 05:47:36.140 --> 05:47:43.800 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: paano ko naman kung wala siyang nilabas na pera? So for zero investment, binigyan kita ng 10%. Laking bagay din for me. 05:47:44.040 --> 05:47:46.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Donation po yun. Lapat po nakadeclare po. 05:47:46.100 --> 05:47:46.340 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: But 05:47:46.340 --> 05:47:46.600 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: we don't 05:47:46.600 --> 05:47:47.840 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: know what it is. Baka 05:47:47.840 --> 05:47:48.400 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: doon sila 05:47:48.400 --> 05:47:50.200 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: nagkamali na hindi nagdeclare ng donation. 05:47:50.440 --> 05:47:50.600 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: ano? 05:47:51.580 --> 05:48:08.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Is that a possibility? Bawal din po kasi makatanggap ng donation tulad po nung na-discuss ko po na paniniwala namin of nominal value lang po ang pwede niyang matanggap. Tulad nga po nang nasabi ko, in the course of work po siya lagi dahil it's a 24, 365. 05:48:09.300 --> 05:48:15.360 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Anyway, I'm just trying to understand your way of thinking na sa tingin niyo po si, what's his name, Jaime? Jaime 05:48:15.360 --> 05:48:15.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tan Cruz po. 05:48:15.980 --> 05:48:19.180 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Jaime Tan Cruz would not give her less than 20%. Yun lang naman yung basihan niyo. 05:48:19.280 --> 05:48:19.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Okay. 05:48:20.350 --> 05:48:49.520 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Pero sir, ang follow-up question ko din dyan, so if you assume that she had 20% in one franchise and the minimum investment in one franchise is 35 million, I'm curious why you did not attribute to her advances of 20% of 35 million? Bakit sa kanya po napunta yung buong 35 million na para na siyang 100%? owner ng operations ng Jollibee. 05:48:49.640 --> 05:48:50.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung limang franchise po. 05:48:51.340 --> 05:48:55.880 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Hindi sir, kasi every year 35, 35, 35, 35. Every year po yan. 05:48:56.260 --> 05:49:10.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ano po ito? It continues to be undeclared. Kaya po siya nag-appear every year. Pero po sa counting po natin ng undeclared assets po or income na 817, isang beses lang po yan na count. 05:49:11.130 --> 05:49:32.090 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I see. Thank you for that clarification because I was of the impression that every year may additional 35. No, you're just saying hindi mo dineclare yung 35 million nung 2022 and hindi mo naman kinorek nung 2023 so it continues to be undeclared. 05:49:32.210 --> 05:49:32.810 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I 05:49:32.810 --> 05:49:46.230 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: think I was confused sir because at some point you made a statement na Ang total investment nung limang yan is, you said 170, which I think is 35 times 5, tama ba? 05:49:46.670 --> 05:49:47.310 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Kasi 05:49:47.310 --> 05:49:51.150 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: 140 to eh, so plus another 35 is 175. So 05:49:51.150 --> 05:49:52.530 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: kaya 05:49:52.530 --> 05:50:02.870 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: ako na-conclude na that is what you were going with, na 35 million every year, and then binigyan nyo ng discount, ginawa nyo 140. 35 lang 05:50:02.870 --> 05:50:19.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pala. Kaya lang po namin nilalagay sa every year po para lang po ma-capture po yung undeclared po per year or SALN inaccuracy po per year pero hindi po siya kinakount ng doble po pagdating po dun sa total namin na 817. 05:50:20.940 --> 05:50:24.000 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Thank you, sir. Thank you. That was a big for me, clarification. 05:50:25.800 --> 05:51:03.590 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Furthermore sir you also said that it is your opinion that because malaki and please correct me dun sa choice of words ko no but my understanding is it is your opinion that because malaki yung investment ni VP Sarah sa Gencor because of Jollibee basically ilalagay niya talaga yan sa SALN niya I don't know if it's like a badge of ownership but hindi naman din declare sa Ang name niya sa GIS dahil meron silang dealings with the city hall. So hindi nila gagawin yun. You said that sir? 05:51:03.590 --> 05:51:03.950 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:51:04.390 --> 05:51:04.830 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Sir, 05:51:04.930 --> 05:51:13.710 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: wouldn't it also be a possibility na kung talagang gusto niya mag-invest ng Jollibee business with Mr. Jaime, I keep forgetting his last name. 05:51:13.910 --> 05:51:15.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: JTC po. Jaime Tan Cruz po. 05:51:16.010 --> 05:51:42.170 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Cruz. Cruz. JTC. If gusto niya mag-invest, it's equally easy naman to put a new corporation naman kasi Hindi ho ba revelational na ipasok mo yun sa SALN mo? Kung tinatago mo, di, bakit mo lalagay sa SALN mo? That's also a possibility sir, di ba? Sorry, let me rephrase this. Compounded na yung aking questions. If 05:51:42.170 --> 05:51:43.410 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: you 05:51:43.920 --> 05:51:45.180 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: wanted to do business, 05:51:47.040 --> 05:51:50.500 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Private business that has no dealings with the City Hall, then you can just 05:51:50.500 --> 05:51:51.100 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: put up a new 05:51:51.100 --> 05:51:51.380 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: corporation. 05:51:52.140 --> 05:51:52.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung spin 05:51:52.400 --> 05:51:59.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: -off lang po. Spin-off po ng bagong partnership with the JTC under Corporation X po. Madali pong gawin yan. 05:52:00.160 --> 05:52:05.260 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So that could have been done. I mean, we cannot conclude na the reason why... 05:52:07.070 --> 05:52:31.380 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Wala yung name niya sa GIS is because tinatago niya na may dealings siya, may dealings ang isang corporation that she's a part of with the City Hall. We cannot conclude that that's the reason na wala yun dun because nilagay niya yung pangalan sa SALN niya and I think kayo din ang nagsabi na mas importante, mas mabigat ang weight ng SALN. Kayo rin ho nagsabi nun. 05:52:32.120 --> 05:52:32.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 05:52:32.980 --> 05:52:35.640 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So it's possible that maiba yung conclusions niyo. 05:52:36.110 --> 05:52:40.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung meron pong dokumento, dalhin lang po at babaguhin ko po yung report ko. 05:52:40.910 --> 05:52:44.450 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: No, but even as it stands now, what I said are possibilities. 05:52:45.290 --> 05:52:49.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, possible. Possibilities po. Everything po is possible. 05:52:49.490 --> 05:52:49.770 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Yes. 05:52:57.290 --> 05:53:23.250 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Would you have any reason to make assumptions as to why the Vice President declared Gencor in her salon in 2024 and yet meron ng Jollibee franchise ang Gencor in 2022. Did you look into that? And do you have a theory about that? 05:53:24.850 --> 05:53:29.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po kasi alam kung kailan po nadadagdagan yung branches po ng Gencor. 05:53:31.710 --> 05:53:32.310 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Madali 05:53:32.310 --> 05:53:33.730 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: naman siguro tingnan yun kasi... 05:53:34.570 --> 05:53:37.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hirap po. Ang late po ng oras namin. 05:53:37.150 --> 05:53:38.230 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Kulang ba? Kulang din sa tao? 05:53:38.230 --> 05:53:38.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 05:53:39.490 --> 05:53:42.690 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So hindi nyo 05:53:42.690 --> 05:54:01.750 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: na natingnan yun sir. Okay lang. So I'll go on to another point. Thank you for that. Doon din ako nahilo kasi doon sa transaction na yan eh. Sir, doon naman sa table 25, page 20 of your report, ito po yung tungkol sa mga credit card ni Atty. Manz Carpio. Ang sinabi nyo doon sa report nyo is this is 05:54:04.480 --> 05:54:52.000 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: basically you're showing this I guess to establish and then in quotes banking behavior that may warrant further review and investigation. What banking behaviors exactly did you want to establish or are you trying to establish that would warrant Further review and investigation. The fact that namimili sa isang kilalang discount store si Atty. Manz Carpio because Mega Donkey is a discount store. So ang ini-establish ba natin is dyan siya sa discount store namimili? Are we establishing that mahilig sa sports gear si 05:54:53.690 --> 05:54:58.510 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Atorniman, Scarpio. I'm just curious what is that behavior that we are trying to establish? 05:54:59.230 --> 05:55:07.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. So ang thinking po namin, halimbawa po dito po sa yung Nike na lang po muna. 05:55:07.110 --> 05:55:07.330 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Yes, 05:55:07.330 --> 05:55:07.430 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: sir. 05:55:07.650 --> 05:55:31.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung Nike po na December 20, December 28 po ba? Posting date, transaction date, December 27. Isang araw lang, isang transaction lang, dalawang transaction, isang... Isang purchase po yan or isang araw. 206 at 93 is 300,000 pesos plus. 05:55:34.180 --> 05:55:39.540 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay. So your point sir is napakagastos niya sa sports? 05:55:40.460 --> 05:55:46.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, di naman po niya masusot po yan lahat. Obvious naman po na pwede po niyang ipamigay. 05:55:47.260 --> 05:55:47.900 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Obvious naman. 05:55:47.940 --> 05:55:49.860 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Pero na-establish 05:55:49.860 --> 05:55:49.980 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: nyo 05:55:49.980 --> 05:55:50.440 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: ba sa report 05:55:50.440 --> 05:55:53.680 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: nyo yun na possible na pinamimigay niya ito? 05:55:53.700 --> 05:55:55.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po kaming conclusion sa report pagdating po dyan. 05:55:56.040 --> 05:55:56.740 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So ano nga 05:55:56.740 --> 05:55:56.920 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: po yung 05:55:56.920 --> 05:55:57.200 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: behavior? 05:55:57.860 --> 05:56:06.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang ordinaryong tawa po kasi hindi po bibili ng ganyan pong kalaking halaga sa Nike store. 05:56:08.520 --> 05:56:17.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So, maari pong may dahilan. E di kung ma-prove yung dahilan na yun, di okay na po. Dahil sinabi lang naman warrants for their investigation po. 05:56:17.440 --> 05:56:17.600 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Share 05:56:17.600 --> 05:56:54.540 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: ko lang po nung... Nung I had the privilege of being selected sa national team ng volleyball, wala akong ka-sponsor-sponsor yung team namin except for of course the Philippine government that was sending us to Japan to compete in the Asian Volleyball Championship. So, daddy ko po yung nilapitan ko at nagbigay siya at that time mga, I can't remember kung 20 or 30 thousand pesos in 1983. I don't know what that value is. Maybe that's worth 200 thousand. So, if somebody sa sports, supporter, it is possible naman na magbigay siya ng ganon. Possible, sir. 05:56:54.760 --> 05:57:10.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Nabanggit nga rin po ng defense kanina, nag-abroad o may grupong pinakain or sa Nike Pavilion, merong in-sponsor. Pwede po yun. Wala po ito sa 817 at parang flinag lang po namin. 05:57:10.240 --> 05:57:46.380 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: O, kasi siyempre nakikita po natin kahit na as a judge ay Try my best not to be influenced by external factors. Pero tao lang tayo, may mga nakikita din tayo. Malayo ho ito sa mga Nepo baby na nagpapakita ng mga luxury bags na 500,000, sapatos, relo na 1 million, 2 million. Kaya I genuinely was curious kung ano ba yung behavior na gusto nyong ma-establish doon. But I think you've responded. I just wanted to give you a chance to respond to that. So kung wala nakiidadagdag, I think this is my one last point. 05:57:58.070 --> 05:58:12.600 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Dun ho sa ano, dun ho sa, I forgot the page number no, but dun sa table, I think nabanggit ni Sen. Camille, I forgot what page, page 30. 37, 38, 39, yung the totals, yung may 817 million. 05:58:12.920 --> 05:58:14.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo, table 39 to. 05:58:14.300 --> 05:58:33.230 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Would you be able to tell us offhand, alin dun ang based on assumptions? Like katulad nung sa yung napag-usapan natin na contributions or advances niya sa ano sa GenCorp, yung mga ganun. Would you be able to tell us? 05:58:33.570 --> 05:58:40.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nakahiwalay po na column yung GenCorp dahil alam ko po na contentious issue po ito. Nakahiwalay po na column siya. 05:58:40.110 --> 05:58:41.670 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Anong page ulit sir? Titingnan ko lang. 05:58:41.910 --> 05:58:42.530 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Ah, well. 05:58:43.370 --> 05:58:44.630 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: What was it? 37? 05:58:44.750 --> 05:58:45.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron po sa 37. 05:58:48.130 --> 05:58:51.650 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: May 37 and 39. Ayun, nakahiwalay nga, dalawa nga. 05:58:53.170 --> 05:58:57.710 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So what you're saying is yung sa GENCOR na lang yung kinoconsider niyong with assumptions? 05:58:58.450 --> 05:59:01.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yun po yung contentious po dahil... 05:59:01.330 --> 05:59:03.370 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay. So hinahighlight niyo na... 05:59:03.370 --> 05:59:04.550 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hinahighlight ko para... 05:59:04.550 --> 05:59:05.010 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Medyo 05:59:05.010 --> 05:59:05.830 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: yan, aralin niyo pa. 05:59:06.050 --> 05:59:11.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Bigyan niyo ng chance yung mga judges po. Hindi ko po nilulubog dito. Just to be transparent po. 05:59:11.530 --> 05:59:12.530 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So ano yung total nun? 05:59:13.070 --> 05:59:13.950 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 200 po. 05:59:15.200 --> 05:59:15.720 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: 200... 05:59:15.720 --> 05:59:19.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 201 po yata. 211, sorry. 05:59:20.380 --> 05:59:22.140 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Anong column yun? Can you help me 05:59:22.140 --> 05:59:22.320 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: find it? 05:59:22.320 --> 05:59:25.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Second to... We're talking 05:59:25.660 --> 05:59:29.860 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: about which table again? Table 39 or 30? 05:59:29.980 --> 05:59:30.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Table 39. 05:59:31.670 --> 05:59:33.710 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Table 39 and then column? 05:59:34.950 --> 05:59:35.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Second 05:59:35.510 --> 05:59:37.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: to the last column. Second to the last po sa kanan. 05:59:39.640 --> 05:59:41.680 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay. What's the number again? 05:59:42.020 --> 05:59:44.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I think it's 211. 05:59:44.900 --> 05:59:47.600 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I'm looking at the wrong table. Yeah, 211. 05:59:52.960 --> 05:59:53.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yeah, 211. 05:59:59.270 --> 06:00:00.690 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I'm looking at the same. 06:00:02.040 --> 06:00:05.240 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Sorry, hindi ko makita yung 211 sa ano eh. 06:00:05.380 --> 06:00:07.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ay ano po, wala po kasing total yung sa... 06:00:07.820 --> 06:00:08.260 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Ah, 06:00:08.280 --> 06:00:08.720 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: walang total. 06:00:08.960 --> 06:00:11.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: In-add ko lang po yung 55, sorry po, tsaka... 06:00:11.260 --> 06:00:12.860 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: 55, 74, and 82. 06:00:12.860 --> 06:00:13.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo, 06:00:13.160 --> 06:00:13.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yun lang po. 06:00:13.440 --> 06:00:13.720 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay, 06:00:13.720 --> 06:00:33.590 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: so you're saying, so other than 211, so you're saying 817 million minus 211, that would be around 600. Diyan... You have a high degree of certainty with that amount or absolute certainty, sir. Ano ba? Ano yan? Absolute high degree? 06:00:34.510 --> 06:00:34.910 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Whatever 06:00:35.360 --> 06:00:37.680 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: you're comfortable 06:00:37.680 --> 06:00:40.040 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: saying, sir. Oo, kaya na tinanggal ko yung Gen 4 eh. 06:00:41.890 --> 06:00:44.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not controversial amounts for me. 06:00:44.330 --> 06:00:48.270 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay. Sige. So, I'm 06:00:51.220 --> 06:00:56.070 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: looking at your conclusion and... 06:00:59.000 --> 06:01:17.120 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Basically, your conclusion says, based on the foregoing, our conclusions are as follows. VP Sara's SALN for the year blah blah blah were untruthful. Number two, VP Sara during her vice presidency continued to participate in various businesses. Number three, her unexplained wealth based only on the limited documents examined, excluding, I think this is a 06:01:17.120 --> 06:02:01.730 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: crucial one, number three, her unexplained wealth based only on the limited documents examined, excluding documents in the possession of VP Sara and spouses amount to 817 million. And then number four, for the above-mentioned infringement which happened in 2022 to 2025, established a pattern of constitutional violation year on year, and then five, apart from the Constitution, other laws were violated, and you mentioned the laws. Would you say, sir, that, and now this is where we talk as lawyers, no? The basic protection of due process is observed when you conclude and No longer mentioned that certain assumptions were made. 06:02:02.170 --> 06:02:04.290 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Oh, it's all in the report po. 06:02:04.820 --> 06:02:15.180 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Sir, pero in the conclusion kasi sir, yung report nyo is 39 pages. Most of which you will not understand unless you read the 50-page annex. 06:02:15.720 --> 06:02:16.280 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Sir, 06:02:17.020 --> 06:02:41.750 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: let me finish lang para buo yung question natin. So that's almost 100 pages. So clearly, and I don't know, it's up to each judge who they would consult with. Me, I tried my best to understand but I also have to discuss with my lawyers and I do have one tax lawyer, CPA lawyer katulad ninyo. Sana kay singaling ninyo. I would 06:02:43.350 --> 06:03:02.590 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: think that it's prudent, and I'm asking your opinion, that in the conclusion, masabi naman na there are, in the same way that you say may require further investigation, that i-highlight din na there are certain assumptions that were made here that may alter some parts of this report. 06:03:04.290 --> 06:03:06.030 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Mas prudent kaya ho yun? 06:03:10.450 --> 06:03:11.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I 06:03:11.010 --> 06:03:30.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: think ang report ko po kasi is a forensic report po. and it's based on my judgment. At tulad nga po nang nasabi ko, maaari pong ituloy ang forensic report, maaari pong itigil na rin ngayon. Kung wala po kasi yung gen corp po 06:03:30.780 --> 06:03:35.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa computation, hindi pa rin po magbabago yung conclusion namin. 06:03:37.660 --> 06:04:02.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So pagka sinabi ko po na may mga assumptions dito, parang it will put into question po yung buo pong na-compute po namin na unexplained wealth. Kasi po naniniwala naman kami na kung mawala man yung GenCorp, buo pa rin po siya. And tulad nga po nang nasabi ko earlier, meron pa pong mga ibang pwedeng ipasok dyan eh. 06:04:03.020 --> 06:04:03.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron 06:04:03.540 --> 06:04:07.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pa pong pwedeng ipasok sa report na hindi namin naipasok because 06:04:07.080 --> 06:04:08.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: of 06:04:08.280 --> 06:04:08.580 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Lack 06:04:08.580 --> 06:04:09.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: of time, etc. 06:04:10.400 --> 06:04:14.280 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Manpower. Naintindihan ko lang po sir yun. Ang sakin lang, yung conclusion lang natin. 06:04:14.980 --> 06:04:41.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kaya po po hindi mailagay yun. It will cast into doubt the entire thing. And kaya po na-explain naman po sa loob yung mga basis namin. Bakit po ako magsasabi na ito yung conclusion ko pero hindi pa ako sigurado sa conclusion ko ha. Yung sinasabi ko po is based on what we've seen, sapat na to para masabi that there are assets which are manifest acquired. or owned which are manifestly disproportionate to our income. 06:04:42.240 --> 06:05:14.310 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I understand sir, but you just said now that if you would have to put a statement that says, that reminds people that there are certain assumptions that would be made that would refute your conclusion. But isn't that what you are supposed to present to us? Na the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Such that kung may assumptions nga po na we have to be mindful of these assumptions, dapat hindi natatago yun dun sa almost 100 page report. Dapat clear na clear po sa atin yun. 06:05:15.670 --> 06:05:16.430 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: You understand 06:05:16.430 --> 06:05:17.410 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: our job, no, sir? 06:05:17.610 --> 06:05:22.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ah, po. Naintindihan ko po. Well, naintindihan ko rin po na babasahin nyo rin po naman lahat po ng pages na report. 06:05:22.810 --> 06:05:34.950 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Baka hindi huli namin kaya, sir. Kahit ako na sa legal side, okay makapagbasahan, pero yung accounting, umiikot din yung utak ko. So, yun lang naman yung sa akin, sir, na... So, 06:05:35.090 --> 06:05:35.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: parang... 06:05:35.810 --> 06:05:36.050 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I 06:05:36.050 --> 06:05:37.290 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: was waiting to see... Kung 06:05:37.290 --> 06:05:42.190 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ilalagay ko po na baka yung GenCorp po ay hindi sigurado po, ganun. 06:05:42.980 --> 06:05:43.660 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Well, if 06:05:43.660 --> 06:05:43.980 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: that's your 06:05:43.980 --> 06:05:44.920 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: conclusion, then 06:05:44.920 --> 06:05:45.540 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: dapat 06:05:45.540 --> 06:05:45.880 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: sana 06:05:45.880 --> 06:05:47.580 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: siguro nakasabi doon. 06:05:47.580 --> 06:06:00.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi po, sa ngayon po sa judgment ko po, at ginamit naming sensitivity analysis, conservative na po yung 20%. And maaari pong sa... Pag-uusap natin ngayon, ngayon 06:06:00.220 --> 06:06:12.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po na naintindihan nyo, kaya po namin hiniwala yun. Because I know it can be controversial. Pero hindi porkit controversial siya, hindi na po ako pwede magkaroon po ng professional judgment on that matter. 06:06:12.900 --> 06:06:33.520 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Well, I will just leave you with this, Mr. Witness. In a case that is almost 100 years old, 1940, so short of 14 years, Angtibay v. Court of Industrial Relations, I'm not going to ask you for these citations kasi as lawyers din po tayo numememorize ng citation pero I'm sure naalala niyo po yung Angtibay due process. 06:06:33.580 --> 06:06:34.200 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: ano ho to. 06:06:37.030 --> 06:07:23.000 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: May decision dito that is landmark case for due process. The Supreme Court ruled that an administrative body's decision must be supported by substantial evidence, etc., etc., etc., and forbids an investigative tribunal from relying on Sweeping conclusions or off-the-record assumptions. So may ganun ho. Kaya sa akin lang na malaman talaga namin ng buong-buo ano dyan yung question. Tapos bahala rin kami mag-review po sir. May ganun tayo. And then this was reiterated more or less the same principle in the very latest Duterte case and in a string of cases. So that's the purpose of... Clarifying these issues with you sir and the principals both in law and accounting. Thank you so much for your time sir. 06:07:23.180 --> 06:07:24.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maraming salamat din po. 06:07:24.660 --> 06:07:42.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you Senator Judge Pia with the indulgence of Senator Judge Padilla. According to Annika, Senator Judge Zubiri manifested earlier his intention to make interjections so we will recognize Senator Judge Zubiri ahead of Senator Judge Padilla. You have a variable period of two minutes sir. You may proceed when you're ready. 06:07:45.520 --> 06:07:48.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly turn on the mic of Senator Judge Zubiri. 06:07:51.180 --> 06:07:51.720 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Yeah, 06:07:53.320 --> 06:07:57.480 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon, Dr. Alex. 06:07:57.760 --> 06:08:00.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang hapon po, Honorable Judge Zubiri. 06:08:00.440 --> 06:08:03.440 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Thank you. Mabilis lang po ito. Simpleng tanong lang po. 06:08:05.540 --> 06:08:53.240 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Noong unang mga two to three weeks ago, naglabas po ng statement nga yung prosecution na meron daw ilalabas ang AMLC more or less na report na 4.4 billion tapos present ka po ng AMLC yung 4.4 billion na suspicious transactions. Hindi masyadong na-take up po ito sa mga tanong ng ating mga prosecutors po sa inyo. Yan po ba'y sinilip din po ninyo itong 4.4 billion? Kasi parang napaka-misleading. Your report basically says 800, ilan ba yan? 817? Million, but this is for four years na nakaupo si Vice Presidente Sara Duterte. Paano po yung sa AMLC? How do you reconcile that? 06:08:53.280 --> 06:08:57.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ito pong, ito pong Honorable Zubiri, Ito po yung prior po sa 2022. 06:08:59.480 --> 06:09:09.920 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Yan po ang sinabi po sa AMLC report. I think yung sinabi nila 4.4 billion, buo na po yan from 2007 until 2024. 06:09:09.920 --> 06:09:10.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ako 06:09:10.440 --> 06:09:43.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po kasi nagtitake po ako ng... Direction po sa prosecution kung ano po yung titignan. Tapos sa oras po na nalalabi, saan ba natin pwedeng ibuhos ang ating work at ang ating mga efforts. At ang sabi po ng prosecution sa akin, 2022 to 2025 nung nanunukulan siyang vice president. So yun po yung tinignan ko. na mainly. So, 06:09:43.990 --> 06:09:50.050 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: simple yung salita, hindi nyo pa nasisilip yung mga suspicions transactions before 2022? 06:09:51.030 --> 06:10:04.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Partially lang. Partial lang po eh, partial. Parang sobrang partial po. Pero pagka ginamit ko po yung sarili ko para doon, baka hindi ko po matapos yung 22 to 25 po na. 06:10:05.040 --> 06:10:15.060 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: But I believe the court was furnished, Mr. Presiding Officer. I believe the court was furnished the documents from AMLC on what these particular suspicious transactions are. It is 06:10:15.060 --> 06:10:22.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: with the Clerk of Court, that is correct, Senator Judge Javiri. However, the Senator judges can refer to it in relation to their interjections. 06:10:23.340 --> 06:10:23.820 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: But 06:10:23.820 --> 06:10:28.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it has not yet been formally offered nor admitted by the court. 06:10:28.800 --> 06:10:42.730 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Maybe just for the benefit of the judges of this... impeachment court. Maybe the court can just give us a rundown of the list that was given by the AMLC, Your Honor, for our perusal and not to be brought out in public. 06:10:42.730 --> 06:10:42.810 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: The 06:10:42.810 --> 06:10:47.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: clerk of court is directed to comply with the request of Senator Judge Zubiri. 06:10:47.550 --> 06:10:57.570 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Sa lahat ng ginawa mong investigasyon sa apat na taon, may na-encounter ba po kayo mga foreign currency accounts or foreign bank accounts? 06:10:58.850 --> 06:11:41.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Una po, wala pong bank statements on foreign currency accounts dahil sa aking pagkakaalam hindi po siya inattempt na isabbi na. Kung meron mang foreign currency accounts na nakita kami, ito po yung sa remittance po sa Cale88 kung saan po yung mga accounts po na pinasukan po nung mga foreign currency remittances po ay kakaiba po dun sa mga local Bank accounts po na pinapasukan po ng mga local transactions. Pero hindi po namin nakita yung bank statement na yun po. Wala po ako nakitang bank statement ng foreign currency deposit accounts. 06:11:42.070 --> 06:11:52.610 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Sa katapusan po, Mr. Presiding Officer, sa binanggit po ng ating kasamaan, Sen. Pia Cayetano, on your report, kung sa English pa, you stand by report. 06:11:52.610 --> 06:11:53.790 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:11:53.790 --> 06:11:54.390 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: 100%. 06:11:54.390 --> 06:11:55.370 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:11:55.370 --> 06:11:57.030 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Maraming salamat po sa presiding officer. 06:11:57.230 --> 06:12:02.790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Padilla has recognized you have a variable period of two minutes. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. 06:12:03.350 --> 06:12:07.410 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maraming salamat po aming tagapamahal ng hukong. 06:12:09.160 --> 06:12:14.670 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Meron po sana akong katanungan para po sa prosecution. 06:12:19.580 --> 06:12:20.500 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Magandang hapon po. 06:12:22.640 --> 06:12:25.780 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sir Chell, magandang hapon po. 06:12:25.780 --> 06:12:28.100 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Good afternoon po, sir. 06:12:28.100 --> 06:12:36.870 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Masasabi ko po na Tayo'y magkakilala at maituturing ko po kayong kaibigan sa Facebook. 06:12:39.970 --> 06:12:48.170 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bagamat tayo po'y hindi politically inclined sa isa't isa, mataas po ang respeto ko po sa inyo. 06:12:48.920 --> 06:12:50.800 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Gano'n din po sa panig ko. 06:12:51.060 --> 06:13:02.290 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Ginoong Chel? Pwede po ba ngayon ang tawag ko sa inyo? Ginoong Chel? Opo. Opo. Ginoong Chel? Gano'n niyo po kakilala yung ating saksi? 06:13:04.170 --> 06:13:16.010 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Minsan lang po yata kami nagsama sa isang forum. I believe that was a year or two ago. Ayun lang po yung pagkakilala ko sa kanya bago po itong impeachment case. Opo. 06:13:16.950 --> 06:13:23.030 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Parang tayo rin po, ganyan. Masasabi po bang gano'n din pagkakakilala po ninyo sa kanya? 06:13:23.310 --> 06:13:24.990 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: I suppose po, Your Honor. 06:13:25.210 --> 06:13:25.530 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. 06:13:28.470 --> 06:13:39.570 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Nabalitaan niyo rin po na minsan, Yung ating pong witness ay naging nagtrabaho sa Isla Lipana and Company. 06:13:39.570 --> 06:13:40.010 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Opo. 06:13:40.070 --> 06:13:40.450 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Opo. 06:13:40.550 --> 06:13:53.870 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Na ito pong company neto ay ginawang independent auditor ng isang FFT Group of Companies. 06:13:55.700 --> 06:13:56.860 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Ano po yan? 06:13:57.140 --> 06:14:07.500 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Ito pong company neto Meron po itong sinasabi kung nandiyan po siguro baka makita din po ninyo. 06:14:07.500 --> 06:14:08.280 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Pwede pong 06:14:10.530 --> 06:14:26.520 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Meron pong reklamo dito sa company neto na ito daw po ay ng biktima ng mga OFW na marami pong bouncing checks. 06:14:26.520 --> 06:14:27.920 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ang 06:14:29.450 --> 06:14:48.590 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Isinabit nitong MFT Group of Companies na umaabot po sa limang bilyon. Ang tanong ko po, hindi niyo po ba alam na yung Isla Lipana ang independent auditor nitong MFT Group of Companies? 06:14:49.390 --> 06:15:02.920 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Ang alam ko po ay itong MFT Group of Companies ay hindi po kasama sa mga kasong ito. Ang ating testigo si Atty. Alex Cabrera. 06:15:03.040 --> 06:15:12.640 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Pero siya po ang chairman nung panahon na iyon? Pwede po bang malaman natin kung si... pwede po natin maitanong ang ating witness? Atty. 06:15:14.180 --> 06:15:16.610 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sir Atty. Magandang hapon po. 06:15:16.610 --> 06:15:19.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Magandang hapon po. Opo. 06:15:20.640 --> 06:15:25.440 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kayo po ay naging chairman ng Isla Lipana? 06:15:25.700 --> 06:15:27.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Tama po. 06:15:27.140 --> 06:15:29.800 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Panahon pong ano ito? Ano pong panahon kayo naging chairman? 06:15:30.340 --> 06:15:32.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 2013 hanggang 2021. 06:15:33.040 --> 06:15:37.620 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: 2021. Opo. Familiar po sa inyo ang MFT Group of Companies? 06:15:38.320 --> 06:15:47.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. Yan po yung ang aming pong kumpanya ang Isla Lipanen Company ay 104 years old po. 06:15:47.800 --> 06:15:48.260 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. 06:15:48.380 --> 06:16:02.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At meron po kaming mga 3,000 na kliyente. At sa 104 years of existence po namin, ngayon lang po kami na Nadamay po sa ganyang uri ng problema. 06:16:03.460 --> 06:16:03.980 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sa panahon niyo po? Sa 06:16:03.980 --> 06:16:04.460 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: panahon niyo 06:16:04.460 --> 06:16:04.560 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po. 06:16:04.740 --> 06:16:09.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung kaso po nangyari po ay tapos na po yung aking term. 06:16:11.280 --> 06:16:13.560 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: 2018 to 2021 po. 06:16:13.700 --> 06:16:21.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yan po yung financial statement po na kinikwestiyon. Hindi po sa akin dumaan yan. Pero yung kaso po nung nagkaroon po ng... 06:16:21.240 --> 06:16:21.940 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Paano po 06:16:21.940 --> 06:16:22.440 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: yun? Hindi 06:16:22.440 --> 06:16:24.680 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: sa inyo dumaan? Paano po yun? Kayo po 06:16:24.680 --> 06:16:26.020 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ang chairman, hindi dumaan sa 06:16:26.020 --> 06:16:26.580 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: inyo. 06:16:26.580 --> 06:16:30.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong chairman na kakayanin pong dumaan po sa kanya. 06:16:30.760 --> 06:16:31.940 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ibig niyo pong 06:16:31.940 --> 06:16:38.840 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: sabihin, ito po nangyayari lahat ito sa panahon po ninyo at hindi niyo po alam. Sagot lang po, oo lang o tama ba o mali. 06:16:38.840 --> 06:16:43.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Alam 06:16:43.810 --> 06:16:44.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ko na po ngayon. 06:16:45.390 --> 06:16:46.630 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sa panahon po ninyo? 06:16:46.770 --> 06:16:51.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nung panahon po yun, wala pa pong nangyayari. At hindi po ibig sabihin na meron pong mali. 06:16:52.560 --> 06:16:53.360 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Paano pong 06:16:53.360 --> 06:16:53.940 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: walang mali? 06:16:54.860 --> 06:16:55.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Paano po kaya 06:16:55.880 --> 06:17:00.340 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: yung 5 billion na bouncing checks? Paano po kaya yung mga OFW na 06:17:00.340 --> 06:17:03.880 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: napahamak? E kayo 06:17:03.880 --> 06:17:19.350 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po ang nagpatunay na sila ay financially healthy. Kayo po ang nagpatunay. Ang isla Lipana ang nagsabi na wala ang kapoblema ang MFT group of companies. 06:17:20.600 --> 06:17:29.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Senator Robin, gustong gusto ko po siyang sagutin. Ang kaso po ay ang involving po two of our partners. 06:17:30.260 --> 06:17:31.040 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Simple lang 06:17:31.040 --> 06:17:31.680 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: naman po kasi 06:17:31.680 --> 06:17:35.760 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: yung tanong ko. Ang haba po ng sagot nyo. Kayo po ba yung chairman nung panahon na yun? 06:17:36.120 --> 06:17:37.660 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Chairman po nung 2018? 06:17:37.660 --> 06:17:38.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Chairman po ko nung 2018. 06:17:38.960 --> 06:17:40.160 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Hanggang 2021? 06:17:40.160 --> 06:17:41.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hanggang 2021 po. Yung lang po. 06:17:41.480 --> 06:17:41.940 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Yung lang po. 06:17:41.980 --> 06:17:43.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero wala po kaso noon. 06:17:43.860 --> 06:17:46.800 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: May kaso nga po ngayon sa panahon ninyo. 06:17:46.800 --> 06:17:47.760 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nung po pa wala po. 06:17:49.070 --> 06:18:26.150 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Okay po, balik po tayo sa inyo, Sir Chell. Ngayon po, narinig po ninyo, so nung panahon niya, nagsabi po yung Isla Lipana na financially healthy itong MFT Group of Companies, na hindi naman po pala at ngayon ay kinakasuhan na. So okay lang po ba sa inyo yun, Sir Chell, na itong ating witness, nung panahon niya, na siya ay chairman, ay nagkaroon ng sabit itong East Lalipana na for 100 years ay walang sabit. Pero sa panahon niya, sumabit. 06:18:26.730 --> 06:18:31.930 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Buong buo po ang tiwala ko kay Atty. Cabrera. Ang pagkaintindi ko po sa kaso ng 06:18:31.930 --> 06:18:50.640 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: iyan, ang naging kliyente ng East Lalipana ay yung parent company lang po. At ang alam ko, yung nagkaproblema na nabanggit po ninyo, Sen. Robin, ay involve the subsidiaries. Who were not engaged by or who were not served by Isla Lipana? 06:18:53.140 --> 06:19:25.290 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Well, yan po ang hindi sinasabi ng SEC. Yun pong SEC ang nagsasabi na sumabit itong MFT Group of Companies na yung Isla Lipana and Company ang independent auditor at yun po ay sa panahon po ni ginuong witness. Balik naman po ako sa ibang katanungan. Sa inyo po, mahal naming witness, kayo po ay membro ng Integrity Initiative Incorporated. 06:19:25.410 --> 06:19:26.090 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:19:26.540 --> 06:19:31.100 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kayo din po ay membro ng Justice Reform Initiative. 06:19:33.120 --> 06:19:33.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 06:19:33.800 --> 06:19:34.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 06:19:34.730 --> 06:19:42.360 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: At kayo din po pala ay naging membro din ng AFP Multisectoral Governance Committee. 06:19:43.360 --> 06:19:44.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hanggang ngayon po. 06:19:44.320 --> 06:19:53.470 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ay, opo, opo. Naging member naman po ako din yan, Strategic Communication. Kayo din po pala ay naging 06:19:55.360 --> 06:19:58.940 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: tagapagsalita ng Institute for Solidarity in Asia? 06:20:00.780 --> 06:20:01.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Spokesperson po, hindi po. 06:20:01.740 --> 06:20:02.220 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Pero 06:20:02.220 --> 06:20:05.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: member po ako ng Institute of Solidarity for Asia. 06:20:05.260 --> 06:20:06.100 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ah, member po kayo yan? 06:20:06.220 --> 06:20:07.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. Board of Trustee po. 06:20:07.980 --> 06:20:16.070 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Apo. Ang tanong ko po, bakit po kayo hindi nag-member ng Institute? of Certified Forensic Accountants of the Philippines. 06:20:16.950 --> 06:20:20.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Bakit po ngayon hindi nag-member niyan? Salamat po sa katanungan. 06:20:23.170 --> 06:20:26.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nung naging partner po ako, 9 years na po ako nagpa-practice. 06:20:28.510 --> 06:22:02.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 11 years na po ako nagpa-practice nung tinayo po ang Association of Certified Fraud Examiners. Ngayon po ito po ay tinayo po ng isang organisasyon. Yan po ay hindi po yan lisensya. Yan po ay isang certification lamang. Yung license ko po as a CPA and as a lawyer is more than enough po to practice forensic. Yung pong mga nag-iexam po for CFE, ang requirement po nila pag nakapasa po sila ng exam, hindi po sila not necessarily accountant po kahit saan course po. Pero ang requirement po nila pag nakapasa po ng exam, kailangan po nilang magpractice ng two years po lamang Direct or indirect about fraud investigations bago po sila bigyan ng certificate po na certified fraud examiner. Ngayon dun po sa two years na yun, magaan po yung requirement eh kasi direct or indirect. Two years lang po. Yung mga kabataan po sa amin na pumapasok ng mga bata pa po, nagtitake po sila ng mga CFA. Tinitrain po namin sila kung paano po mag gumawa po ng forensic audit kasi kailangan po nila ng 2 years bago po magka lisensya. Nung itinayo po ang Association of Certified Fraud Examiners po sa Pilipinas noong 2001 ay 11 years na po yata ako nagpa-practice po noon. Kaya kung baga po hindi ko na po siya talaga 06:22:04.410 --> 06:22:19.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Alam niyo po yung exam, Honorable Senator Robin. Yung exam po niya, tinatanong po kayo ng internal control. Ano po ang balance sheet? Tapos tinatanong po kayo tungkol sa mga criminal laws po. 06:22:20.870 --> 06:22:40.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang accounting po ay napakalawak po at napakalalim po sa aspeto po na yun, yung mga about internal control. At ang legal subject naman po, ang law naman po, ay napakalaki po at napakalawak compared po sa kinukover po ng isang exam po ng CFE. So parang 06:22:40.610 --> 06:22:43.670 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: sinasabi nyo po, sir, na hindi nyo kailangan nito? 06:22:43.850 --> 06:22:45.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko na po siya talaga kailangan po. 06:22:45.770 --> 06:22:46.250 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sa 06:22:46.250 --> 06:22:56.790 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: palagay nyo po ba itong Institute of Certified Forensic Accountants of the Philippines, wala itong silbi? Parang ganun po. 06:22:56.790 --> 06:22:57.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ako po, 06:22:57.270 --> 06:23:31.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ma... Nakakatulong po sila sa pagpaparami po ng certified fraud examiners po na kailangan po ng ating bansa. So, hindi po siya walang silbi. Malaki po ang maitutulong yan sa pagpaparami po ng certified fraud examiners po dito sa atin. Pero ulitin ko lamang po, certification po yan, hindi po yan na bigay po ng gobyerno na lisensya. And any accountant, any lawyer, in fact, can practice forensic investigation services kahit po wala po ng ano. 06:23:31.960 --> 06:23:35.700 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Yung salita pong certified, hindi po yun importante 06:23:35.700 --> 06:23:36.040 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: sa 06:23:36.040 --> 06:23:36.260 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: inyo? 06:23:36.340 --> 06:23:53.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Certified po yun ng organization na kailangan nyo po mag-exam. Tapos kailangan nyo lamang po ng two years experience. Honorable Senator Robin, 37 years na po ako. Huwag naman po sanang tawaran po. compared po sa two years na kailangan 06:23:53.010 --> 06:23:53.350 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: naman. Hindi ko naman 06:23:53.350 --> 06:24:15.390 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po, hindi ko naman po kayo, pasensya na po kung ganun po ang dating. Hindi naman po, ano lang po yun, tanong lang po. Kasi para po sa akin, ay napakahalaga nung certify. Pero kung sa inyo po, sa palagay nyo, ay hindi naman sa ganun kahalaga. Okay po yun, hindi ko po kayo inuhusgahan, sir. Ano lang po yun, tanong lang po yung sa akin. Pangalawang tanong po, kanina, 06:24:18.060 --> 06:24:46.240 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Madalas kong marinig, sinasabi ninyo, minadali kayo. Parang wala kayong masyadong time. Sir, pinag-uusapan po natin ang pag-i-impeach sa ibinoto ng tao ng 30 million votes. Tama po bang sabihin natin na wala kayong time? Na hindi kayo masyado binigyan ng oras at minadali ito? Itong ginawa nyo pong forensic na 06:24:49.450 --> 06:24:51.890 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ano pong tawag nyo dito? Forensic analysis? 06:24:52.830 --> 06:24:54.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Forensic analysis po. Yun 06:24:54.210 --> 06:25:23.020 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po. Opo. Yun po ba? Sa palagay po nyo ba? Fair po ba yun? Kasi alam nyo po, ang unang-unang ibinilin sa amin dito, nung kami po ay may mga bisita na naging Supreme Court Chief Justice. Fairness, sabi niya. Importante yung fairness. Sa inyo po, sa inyo po bang palagay? Tama yung salitang wala kayong masyadong time nung ginawa nyo ito. Minadali. So 06:25:23.020 --> 06:25:36.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ako po yung nagtrabaho po sa isang audit firm at lahat po ng trabaho po doon ay minamadali. Ang mga kliyente po namin lahat po rushan. So mabilisan po. Lagi pong rush ang trabaho. 06:25:36.840 --> 06:25:38.060 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Pero ito 06:25:38.060 --> 06:25:39.740 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po ay impeachment po ito eh. 06:25:40.580 --> 06:25:41.060 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ito 06:25:41.060 --> 06:25:47.780 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po ang isang bagay na dapat ay binibigyan natin ng tamang panahon. Yun lamang po. So sinasabi niyo po na talagang minadali niyo. 06:25:48.640 --> 06:25:59.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kailangan po ang kabuli ng mga deadline. Hindi po ibig sabihin na minadali ay hindi na po namin ginawa ng mabuti ang trabaho po namin. Ginawa po namin ng mabuti ang trabaho po namin. 06:25:59.500 --> 06:26:00.480 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: So iba na po 06:26:00.480 --> 06:26:06.320 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ngayon, ginawa niyo ng mabuti. Iba na po, iba na po. Minadali o ginawa niyo 06:26:06.320 --> 06:26:06.560 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: mabuti? 06:26:06.560 --> 06:26:19.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po siya inconsistent. Kahit po kayo nagmamadali, pwede niyo pong gawing mabuti po ang inyong trabaho. Kahit po mabagal, pwede niyo pa rin pong gawing mabuti ang trabaho. Ang mahalaga po doon ay dedicated po kayo sa ginagawa po ninyo. 06:26:19.660 --> 06:26:19.700 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo, 06:26:19.700 --> 06:26:33.840 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: kasi kanina na sa argumento po ninyo ni Sen. Pia Caetano na isa ring abogado, ilang beses po niyang inulit. Nasa usaping ito, mahirap yung... Naga-assume lang tayo. 06:26:35.380 --> 06:28:06.380 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Napakahalaga po nun kasi alam nyo, ito po'y hindi basta-basta kaso. Ito po ay impeachment po ito. Tayo po ay nagtatanggal ng isang opisyal na binoto ng taong bayan. Yun lamang po ang aking gustong ipaalala sa inyo, Sir, na hindi po katanggap-tanggap yung mga salitang minadali, yung wala ng oras, assumption. Yan po yung mga bagay na para po sa akin, kasi kayo din po kanina nagsasabi kayo na ito po yung sa tingin ninyo. Yan. Eh yun din po sa tingin ko. At ako po ay pinangahawakan natin ang saligang batas na kailangan na ibigyan natin ng due process ang lahat ng bagay. Yun lamang po kung sa palagay po ninyo ginawa nyo yung trabaho ninyo ay... sa inyo po yan. Sa amin naman po, gagawin din namin ang trabaho namin na hindi namin ito mamadiliin. Hindi rin po kami magkukulang ng oras at hihingin po namin sa aming Senate President at sa aming Tagapamahalang Hukom na huwag nating madaliin ito. Dahil itong bagay na ito, nakasalalay dito ang 32 million votes ng taong bayan. Bilang huling tanong na lang po. Tama po ba nung December 2025 nagkita kayo ni Mayor Lenny Robredo? 06:28:07.280 --> 06:28:08.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:28:08.260 --> 06:28:10.160 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Yun lamang po. Maraming salamat 06:28:10.160 --> 06:28:10.300 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po. 06:28:10.380 --> 06:28:10.720 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Thank 06:28:10.720 --> 06:28:10.960 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: you po. 06:28:11.540 --> 06:28:14.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Padilla. 06:28:16.660 --> 06:28:23.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nabitin ako ng konti doon. Akala ko may follow-up eh. Senator Judge Villanueva is recognized. You may proceed, sir. 06:28:25.190 --> 06:28:27.870 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. President. 06:28:29.830 --> 06:30:16.340 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ganda nga hapon po ulit. Atty. Alex, nais kong magtanong muli for my second round regarding Cale88. Nais kong makita yung pagtutugma ng ating report dito sa financial records sa operasyon ng negosyo. At dito po sa inyong report, it states that based on the local bank accounts examined, The company's recorded revenues were understated by an average of approximately 51% year on year. So gusto ko makita yung buong value nitong kumpanya kasi doon sa computed local bank na undeclared inflows na inyong ginawa, 2023 2.33 million, 2024, 22.18 million, and 2025, 10.78 million. Gusto kong malaman, Atty. Cabrera, when you reconciled itong Cal88's bank inflows against its declared revenues and audited financial statements, ano po yung major discrepancies na inyo pong nakita? Natanggal nyo po ba yung Tinatawag na for example, internal transfers, duplicate reporting, already recorded sales. At dito yung sa initial na binigay. loans or shareholder funding, foreign currency proceeds, later converted into peso. Gusto ko natin sana malaman, magkano po kaya yung talagang amount na talagang hindi ninyo ma-reconcile dun sa books, tax returns, at legitimate sources of funds? 06:30:16.400 --> 06:30:25.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung amount po? Meron lang po kaming discrepancy po lang sa AMLA. Report po. Yung 319 po tsaka 222. 06:30:25.860 --> 06:30:26.880 Sen. Joel Villanueva: 319 versus 06:30:26.880 --> 06:30:27.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 222. 06:30:28.640 --> 06:30:29.200 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Okay. 06:30:29.680 --> 06:30:46.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero na-reconcile na rin po namin yun. Na talaga po meron po kami mga nakitang pairing transactions, tinanggal po namin yung isa. Magkaiba naman po kasi kami nang ginagawa ng AMLA. Yung AMLA po nagpa-flag. Tapos kami naman po, kinukuha namin yung receipts. 06:30:46.810 --> 06:30:47.350 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And you 06:30:47.350 --> 06:30:49.090 Sen. Joel Villanueva: analyze. And 06:30:49.090 --> 06:31:08.210 Sen. Joel Villanueva: dun sa adjustments na nakikita niyo po, for example, same company transfers, duplicate regulatory entries, collections of sales already booked, financing, shareholder advances, pati yung foreign exchange conversion into local accounts. What did you see here, sir? 06:31:11.590 --> 06:31:23.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron pong credit memo sa local bank accounts. na nakikita kami pero hindi po namin na alam kung saang account na ang gagaling. 06:31:23.640 --> 06:31:24.940 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ah ganoon. 06:31:24.940 --> 06:31:30.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Credit memo po ibig sabihin na nasa isang banko po yun. Tapos meron pong 06:31:32.560 --> 06:31:37.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pumapasok na galing po sa ibang bangko pero hindi ko po alam kung saan po nang gagaling. 06:31:37.940 --> 06:31:51.260 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Gusto kong susugan itong kumpanya na ito and I will share with you later kasi I'm being asked when I raced yesterday or last time yung dalawang empleyado. Pero ayon po sa inyong findings. 06:31:53.130 --> 06:31:56.350 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Wala ring inventory of raw materials. Do you 06:31:56.350 --> 06:31:56.930 Sen. Joel Villanueva: recall that? 06:31:56.990 --> 06:31:57.670 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And 06:31:57.670 --> 06:32:30.840 Sen. Joel Villanueva: supplies, no? Based on your professional experience po ba? Both as an accountant and fraud analyst, too ba pwedeng mangyari? Kasi I just can't, as a observer, no? Parang ang nangyayari po, and correct me if I'm wrong please, every December 30 o sa huling taon, Wala akong inventory. Ibig sabihin po ba nang simot lahat? Walang saging, walang asukal, walang packaging, etc. Yun ho yung lumalabas sa report nyo. Gusto ko lang i-clarify. 06:32:30.880 --> 06:32:31.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:32:31.300 --> 06:32:32.160 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Is that correct? 06:32:32.160 --> 06:32:42.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po yan. Meron lang po silang inventory ng maliit na finished goods po. Pero wala po silang raw material supplies, work in process inventory. Wala po na. 06:32:42.240 --> 06:32:45.080 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And for you as an analyst, what... 06:32:47.820 --> 06:32:50.820 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Is this possible? Some manufacturing business? 06:32:51.120 --> 06:33:08.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung manufacturer po kayo, hindi po pwede. Kasi ibig sabihin po nun, titigil po talaga yung trabaho. At saka hindi po talaga natural na wala po kayong inventory dahil kasama po yan sa mga materials na ginagamit para po makapag-export. 06:33:08.800 --> 06:33:09.440 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And 06:33:09.440 --> 06:33:50.200 Sen. Joel Villanueva: dito nakita ko yung audited financial statement na inyong pinuna. Manage. At nung pong, if I recall it right, I think it's the BIR na witness nagsabi po na, kasi tinanong ko po eh, kung losing yan, sino yung nagpopondo? Ang naging sagot po ay lumalabas sa mga records na iyong management po yung nagpopondo o sumasagot po para magpatuloy yung operasyon, management daw. Yun yung sabi ng BIR, no? And ang tanong ko, meron po ba talagang Pondo na binigay ang management para sa operations na ito? May nakikita po kayo 06:33:50.200 --> 06:33:51.460 Sen. Joel Villanueva: doon sa financial statement? 06:33:51.460 --> 06:33:51.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron lang po 06:33:51.480 --> 06:34:07.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung advances po. Advances from shareholders, yun lang po yung pondong na ibigay niya kasi halos wala pong capital yung Cale88 eh. Pero even kasama po yung advances na yun, kulang pa rin po yun para masustain po yung ganyan pong level ng operations. 06:34:08.650 --> 06:34:21.050 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ulitin ko po, kanina binanggit ko po yung nasa report, approximately 51% year on year is being understated. What made you come up with the 51%, sir? 06:34:21.230 --> 06:34:24.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: In-add lang po, tsaka dinivide by 4, lahat po ng understatements niya po. 06:34:25.210 --> 06:34:34.540 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Oo, okay. Sige po. Next, I go to the, kanina binanggit ko, yung manpower complement ng... 06:34:36.460 --> 06:35:54.100 Sen. Joel Villanueva: KL88. Nung binanggit ko po yung dalawang empleyado na inilabas po dun sa JIS, may mga nag-bash po sa akin na sabi sa akin, eh, Sen. Villanueva, hindi nyo ba alam ang ibig sabihin ng outsourcing, etc.? Eh, sabi ko, alam ko naman po yun. At gusto kong malaman sa inyo, when you examined itong financial statements ng Cale88, na-flag nyo po ba na walang manufacturing arrangements na maaaring nakakapag-substitute sa actual na manufacturing activities? And the company reported 150 million sales for 2024. While the GIS presented here in this court reflected na wala po rank and file employees eh in 23 and 24. In fact, 2025 po pumasok yung dalawang empleyado at zero ang nakalagay sa manpower complement. Kaya dun sa mga nagtatanong po na kung hindi natin alam yung sinasabi natin, wala pong report na zero. 06:35:55.680 --> 06:36:17.020 Sen. Joel Villanueva: talaga pong zero ang nakalagay dun sa manpower complement. Sa tatlong taon po yun. So, ibig sabihin po, yung outsourcing o sinasubcontract, wala pong nakalagay. And please correct me if I'm wrong. Wala po talagang nakalagay, hindi po ba? Sa AFS, wala ding nakalagay. Sa GIS, zero po talaga. Wala 06:36:17.020 --> 06:36:23.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pong nakadisclose sa financial statements. Although, Honorable Villanueva, 06:36:26.110 --> 06:36:35.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Meron pong cost of goods sold po siya. Cost of goods manufactured po. At maaari pong may direct labor po doon. 06:36:36.360 --> 06:36:38.300 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Doon po mapasok? Could be? 06:36:38.500 --> 06:36:40.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maaari pong nandoon po yung direct labor 06:36:40.250 --> 06:36:40.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 06:36:40.470 --> 06:36:44.770 Sen. Joel Villanueva: But again, there's no record that states may outsourcing. 06:36:44.990 --> 06:36:45.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 06:36:45.950 --> 06:36:48.930 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Merong sinab contract. Wala po. 06:36:49.110 --> 06:36:49.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. 06:36:49.630 --> 06:36:50.230 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And... 06:36:52.170 --> 06:37:01.730 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Your forensic examination independently verified the company's staffing and operational capacity against the relevant records. 06:37:02.330 --> 06:37:03.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:37:03.920 --> 06:37:21.080 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Follow up po. Sa inyong professional experience, ano ba yung mga factors that you would examine when determining whether or not the financial and operational profile of a certain business is consistent with its reported scale? 06:37:22.470 --> 06:37:23.170 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ano 06:37:23.170 --> 06:37:24.050 Sen. Joel Villanueva: yung mga factors? 06:37:24.550 --> 06:37:43.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, lahat po nung aspeto po kung paano po magiging viable po ang isang business. Kung kayo po ay may manufacturing concern, dapat meron po kayong sufficienting property, plant and equipment. Yung pong established po yung sino po yung mga 06:37:45.390 --> 06:38:38.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tao po na nagtatrabaho po sa planta, sa manufacturing. Sino po yung mga tao na nagtatrabaho rin po sa administrative. Tapos dapat po mataas po yung electrical cost nyo. Di ba din gumagamit po kayo ng power. Pero po yung mahalaga po sa amin din na nakita po namin, hindi po kasi pwede magsabay po yung sales at purchase. na parang lagi ka pong walang receivable, lagi kang walang payable. Kasi po sa tunay na negosyo, siyempre kailangan mo munang bumili ng mga inventory o materials para i-process bago po maging finished goods. Bago po makapagbenta, tapos po pag nakapagbenta at na-collect niyo po yung pinagbentahan, pwede niyo po mabayaran yung mga nasa supply chain po. So hindi po talaga possible na cash po lahat. 06:38:39.020 --> 06:38:46.830 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And considering that this company ay nag-ooperate with international operations. 06:38:48.150 --> 06:38:49.170 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:38:49.570 --> 06:39:22.130 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Anyway, pwede ko bang matanong ang ating prosecution at defense? Just one question, the Honorable Diokno, if I may. Kanina nabanggit po yung sa customs if you were able to verify. Sa prosecution po ba, na-verify niyo po ba independently yung workforce declared by Cale88 using this original GIS filings, payroll, SSS, field health, pag-ibig, and other official employment records? 06:39:22.750 --> 06:39:36.690 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Unfortunately, Your Honor, we were not able to. We hope to do that. Ang problema lang po sa dami rin ng mga inaayos na tinahanla po namin. We were not able to make the official confirmations. 06:39:36.930 --> 06:39:42.130 Sen. Joel Villanueva: That's official. Pero not official. May nabalitaan na po kayo or anything? 06:39:42.130 --> 06:39:43.030 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Parang meron man 06:39:43.030 --> 06:39:46.590 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: pong naririnig. But of course, that's all hearsay. 06:39:46.750 --> 06:40:24.870 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you. Sa defense, pwede yung malaman sa original GIS filings ng Cale88, tama po bang? Totoo na ito, wala hong empleyadong deklarado, 23 to 24, dalawa naman para sa 2025, and on top of this, zero ang manpower complement as stated a while ago ng mga taong iyon, is the defense disputing the entries reflected in these general information sheet documents or Accurate po ba ito? What's your position on this matter? 06:40:24.870 --> 06:40:30.270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, we will disclose or we will tackle the matter at the right time, Your Honor. 06:40:30.470 --> 06:40:32.330 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Okay, thank you. I understand po. 06:40:33.850 --> 06:41:28.230 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Siguro yung last na lang po na itatanong ko sa ating witness. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that I get your position. But we will wait on that, Atty. Mr. Cabrera, Atty. Cabrera, dun po sa... 2025 GIS tungkol po dun sa pag-transfer dun sa pikimong-pikimong. Susugan ko yung tinanong kanina ni Senator Kiko. First of all, would you agree with this representation na a GIS reported corporate ownership a GIS records Reported corporate ownership but does not by itself establish that consideration was actually paid. Would you agree with that? 06:41:30.930 --> 06:41:33.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, sandali 06:41:36.620 --> 06:41:38.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: lang po ah. Isipin po natin. 06:41:42.470 --> 06:42:14.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ito po kasi secondary na po ito eh. Yung naka-establish na po yung company. So pagka po original incorporation po. Bawal po yung walang payment because you will be issuing watered stock. Pero kung nagtatransfer po from one shareholder to another, gawa nung issued na po yung stock, pwede po silang magkaroon ng kasunduan na on credit. Kaya pwede pong lumipat kahit po wala pa pong bayad. 06:42:15.150 --> 06:42:16.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero kailangan pong, 06:42:17.960 --> 06:42:25.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede pong lumipat, wala pa pong bayad, pero kahit wala pa pong bayad, babayaran mo yung tax, kukuha ka ng CAR. 06:42:27.120 --> 06:43:28.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At saka dapat merong disclosure po ng mga transaksyon na yun doon po sa kabila pong financial statement. So alimbawa po sa Pikimong-Pikimong, kung siya po talagang bumili ng Calil 88 shares doon po sa magsyosyo po na si... Tony Manzcarpio, tsaka si Dr. Lebosada. Kahit hindi niya po bayaran, marirecord po yung asset. Tapos po, marirecord din po dun yung payable. Doon naman sa books ng Cale88. Marirecord po yung payable. Okay. Pag binili ko po yan, kahit hindi ko po binabayaran, irerecord ko po yung shares, investment. Pero kung hindi pa po bayad, payable ang irerecord ko. Kung bayad, edi cash yung maapektuhan, mababawasan po yung cash ko. Pero tulad nga po ng nasabi ko kanina, wala pong kakayahang magbayad ng cash at wala rin pong aksyon doon po sa financial statement po, wala pong nangyayari. 06:43:28.900 --> 06:43:49.360 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Susugan ko yung sinasabi nyo, yung kakayahan na magbayad dahil po doon sa inyong inireport, inistate nyo po doon yung Pikimong Pikimong had only about 59,836. pesos in capital and approximately 84,700 in total assets. Is 06:43:49.360 --> 06:43:49.920 Sen. Joel Villanueva: that correct? 06:43:49.920 --> 06:43:52.260 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po yun nung sumunod na taon po. 06:43:52.260 --> 06:43:52.320 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And 06:43:52.320 --> 06:43:55.140 Sen. Joel Villanueva: with no corresponding acquisition reflected in 06:43:55.140 --> 06:43:55.900 Sen. Joel Villanueva: its financial statements. 06:43:55.900 --> 06:43:58.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala rin po talagang activity sa financial statements. 06:43:58.500 --> 06:43:58.720 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And 06:43:58.720 --> 06:44:09.280 Sen. Joel Villanueva: what did your review find about whether an actual transfer for value occurred, Your Honor? GIS lang? 06:44:10.000 --> 06:44:16.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Whether an actual transfer for value occurred. I guess, financial statements po, reporting. 06:44:17.410 --> 06:44:22.510 Sen. Joel Villanueva: So parang sinasabi niyo po, yung sari-sari store, binili yung isang department store. 06:44:25.250 --> 06:44:27.690 Sen. Joel Villanueva: I'm just asking you. 06:44:28.870 --> 06:44:33.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung d-list po, kinain yung pateng. Ganun po. Parang. 06:44:34.570 --> 06:44:56.540 Sen. Joel Villanueva: But anyway, anyway, I just wanted to put that on record. And if this was a genuine sale, Mr. Witness, Atty. Abrera, where would you ordinarily expect to find the purchase price and the proof of payment? Did you find any of those records, by the way? 06:44:56.940 --> 06:45:18.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po. Well, you can see that, well, of course, the deed of sale, the check payment. The bank account, you could see that in the bank account kung nag-clear po yung cheque. Yung recording po, yung extemporaneous recording po sa books, 06:45:18.720 --> 06:45:19.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: journal 06:45:19.500 --> 06:45:31.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: entry po na meron pong nagbintahan. So kailangan po nakarecord po yan lahat. Tapos kikilos po yung stock and transfer book, etc. Hindi po pwedeng isang dokumento lang. 06:45:31.610 --> 06:45:32.030 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Meaning 06:45:32.030 --> 06:45:41.790 Sen. Joel Villanueva: to say hindi po po pwede na yung GIS standing alone establish that underlying ownership interest was actually or genuinely transferred for value. 06:45:41.790 --> 06:45:42.030 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kailangan 06:45:42.030 --> 06:45:55.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po natin ng menu of all the rest of the transaction documents that will be affected and will reflect the record of the transaction. Yun po yung normal po. 06:45:55.130 --> 06:45:55.730 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Maraming 06:45:55.730 --> 06:45:59.350 Sen. Joel Villanueva: salamat Mr. Witness. Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you. 06:46:01.840 --> 06:46:11.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. Senator Judge Raffy Tulfo for his variable two minutes this time around. And apologies again during the first round. 06:46:18.280 --> 06:46:19.840 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Atty. Cabrera, okay ka pa ba? 06:46:20.100 --> 06:46:20.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Okay pa po. 06:46:21.640 --> 06:46:23.570 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Gusto mong uminom ng tubig. Okay na po. 06:46:23.570 --> 06:46:25.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nakakainom po ako ng tubig. Maraming salamat po. 06:46:25.860 --> 06:46:31.100 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you. Babalikan na natin yung Cale88 kasi na-interrupt ako dahil [unclear] sa oras kanina. 06:46:32.490 --> 06:46:40.640 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Bases sa records, itong Cale88 palaging negative ang net taxable income. Meaning losses. Ibig sabihin, every single year palagi silang nasa red, meaning lugi. 06:46:40.640 --> 06:46:48.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Losses po. 06:46:48.920 --> 06:46:49.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:46:49.760 --> 06:46:52.060 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Now, it really defies logic and 06:46:52.060 --> 06:47:00.020 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: simple common sense na lugi ka every year and yet may pumapasok malalaking pera. 06:47:02.490 --> 06:47:47.540 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: That money is coming from countries na high risk padating sa money laundering. Kasi ang normal business principle is to make money. Kasi what's the use of you being in business if you're not making money? Eto pa, napansin ko, recently meron silang advertisement na nag-hire silang empleyado. So ang tanong ko po sa inyo, ano po sa inyong pag-analisa? na bakit ganon every year sila ay lugi or losses wala silang ay binabayad meaning sa BIR and yet by the hundreds of millions pumapasok ng pera why is that? Bakit they still continue doing business? 06:47:49.420 --> 06:47:59.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung pera pong pumapasok po ay hindi po related sa business. Yun lang po yung dun po sa fact pattern po na inyo pong nabanggit. 06:48:01.870 --> 06:48:07.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung wala talagang tunay na negosyo, mapasok yung pera. Hindi po from business operations yung 06:48:07.470 --> 06:48:34.880 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: pumapasok na pera. So, most likely, saan po nagagaling yung pera? Kasi, syempre, alangan ba naman yung mga, parang ako, kunyari, isa ako sa mga incorporators ng Cale88, and then idideklara sa akin na accountant na day of the year, Boss, nungi tayo, wala tayong dividendo, at nasa pula tayo, at wala nga tayong pambayad ng tax. Well... Atras na ako at sabihin ko, isara na natin itong Lintik. Ay sorry, itong kumpanyang ito dahil lugi na 06:48:34.880 --> 06:48:55.820 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: lang taon-taon. Pero ito, tuloy pa rin. In fact, nag-ahire pa. As a matter of fact, sabi nyo nga kanina, wala silang records na nagbabayad sila para sa kanilang raw materials to produce their products na para... ilalabas. 06:48:55.820 --> 06:48:58.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala pong raw material inventory po. 06:48:58.100 --> 06:49:03.440 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: What does that mean? Ano ibig sabihin nung wala siya inventory? Wala ka ring 06:49:03.440 --> 06:49:12.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: finished goods na magagawa kung wala kang raw material inventory at the end of the year. So, kailangan niyo po ito para maging 06:49:12.280 --> 06:49:13.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: continuous po ang business. 06:49:13.590 --> 06:49:35.110 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Exactly. So, for you to be able to produce banana chips, you have to have raw materials, right? So, may pinanggalingan yan. So, yun ay missing. So kung baga, o, paano ka nagkaroon ng banana chips, saan ang galing yung pang manufacture mo, yung banana chips mo, kung wala kang declare ng raw materials? Bakit hindi po nakadeclare yung raw materials? 06:49:35.110 --> 06:49:38.110 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sa kanila po, wala po. Pero 06:49:38.110 --> 06:49:48.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: maging tabla lang po tayo, kung wala po sila nung manufacturing talaga, ibig sabihin, pwede po sila nagpapanmanufacture sa iba. 06:49:50.410 --> 06:49:51.265 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Theoretically po. 06:49:51.265 --> 06:50:01.830 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So, meaning, nag-aangkat sila sa iba. So, merong ibang kumpanya ang nagsusupply ng raw materials nila, and then pinoprocess nila yun, and then after that, in-export papunta sa mga iba-ibang bansa. 06:50:01.830 --> 06:50:07.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, maring in-order nila, halimbawa po. Pero yun nga po yung ano eh, wala po tayong nakitang record ng ano. 06:50:07.180 --> 06:50:19.250 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: And then why would they do that? Ba't sila, ba't sila hindi nila mismo ang mag-angkat ng sarili nilang raw materials, and then ipoprocess that? Pro-process yan hanggang sa iyon ay magiging banana chips. 06:50:19.250 --> 06:50:19.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kulang po 06:50:19.920 --> 06:50:20.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: kasi sila sa 06:50:20.520 --> 06:50:20.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ano eh? 06:50:21.400 --> 06:50:26.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kulang po sila sa property plant and equipment. Property plant and equipment. Kulang po sila sa investment. 06:50:27.600 --> 06:50:38.340 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Di ba 125,000 yung kanilang investment? So tama po ba yan? Ang investment mo is 125,000 paid up capital and yet you're making hundreds of millions every year. Does 06:50:38.340 --> 06:50:39.300 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: that make sense? 06:50:39.960 --> 06:50:54.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yeah. Well, sa kabuuan po ng financial statements. Kasi po, Yung pagkakasabi niyo po, kung halimbawa, tech company ko, hindi mo kailangan masyado ng kapital, may na-invento ko. 06:50:54.870 --> 06:51:02.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung pang sobrang kakaiba lang po pwede mo yan. Pero sa ganito pong uri ng business, hindi 06:51:02.150 --> 06:51:03.430 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po siya plausible. 06:51:03.430 --> 06:51:09.430 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, sa inyo pong experience bilang accountant for so many years, simptomas ng ano po ito, ng klaseng business? 06:51:12.240 --> 06:51:13.600 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Yung bang... 06:51:13.860 --> 06:51:37.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Alam ko po yung... Sinasabi niyo, pero hindi po, hindi ko po masabi na ito po talaga yung nangyayari doon. Pero tulad nga po nung nasabi ko sa kanila kanina, ang pagpasok ng pera at paglabas ng pera na hindi naman nagagamit nung negosyo yung pera ay simptomas po ng money laundering. Pero hindi ko po sinasabing... Conclusive po 06:51:37.080 --> 06:51:39.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: na may money laundering po nangyayari. 06:51:39.060 --> 06:51:39.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 06:51:39.180 --> 06:51:49.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: baga, eh yun yung simptomas na may problema sa katawan kung tao man may sakit, alam na niya yung simptomas na yan ay magkaroon siya ng trangkaso, etc. Something like that. 06:51:49.360 --> 06:51:58.070 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, mapunta muna tayo sa GEM Corp po, Mr. Witness. Nag-start natin GEM Corp is 2020, am I right? 06:52:01.030 --> 06:52:14.870 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sometime in 2020 or 2021. Around that time. Okay, anyway, sige. Ang paid up capital ng Gem Corp was 1.2 million at that time. Tama? 06:52:15.130 --> 06:52:15.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 1 06:52:15.810 --> 06:52:17.390 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: .125 something? 06:52:17.650 --> 06:52:19.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 1 million 250 06:52:19.890 --> 06:52:20.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: thousand. 06:52:20.630 --> 06:52:45.410 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: At 2050. So 1.2 more or less. Okay. Now, with that paid up capital, sila'y nakapagbumili ng franchise ng Jollibee na yung Jollibee is Franchise is 35 to 55 million. Ilagay lang natin sa 35 million. Kanina pa natin pinag-usapan yung 35 million na amount. Baskin na ibang senador na tanong sa iyo. 06:52:47.170 --> 06:53:02.530 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Na-trace niyo ba saan galing yung difference? Kasi kung 35 million na lang and then ibabawas natin yung 1.2, so meron 33.8 na ipinasok nila para mabili yung first franchise ng Jollibee. 06:53:03.390 --> 06:53:17.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ito po yung attribution po at sinasabi namin na mari po hindi po na-record po doon yung equity. Hindi po na sinasabi na walang branch kasi sinabi nga natin may mga resibo. Pero sa financial statement po, hindi po doon na 06:53:17.650 --> 06:53:28.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: -record yung equity. So yung 1.250 million, hindi po siya reflective nung actual net worth po nung company. Hindi reflective. 06:53:28.840 --> 06:53:29.440 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Bakit 06:53:29.440 --> 06:53:35.900 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: nangyari yun? Diba dapat they have to declare it properly when they filed yung records nila sa SEC? 06:53:35.900 --> 06:53:52.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Financial statements supporting the ITR should reflect the proper value. Pero hindi po pwedeng meron kang ganung asset, limang branches, na ang capital mo ay 1.250. Wala rin po namang 06:53:52.130 --> 06:54:10.850 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: payable. Okay. Kaya nga po, so... Abante tayo ng konti. Bumili ng Jollibee sa capital 1.2 million first year and then ang income nila sa first year ay 06:54:12.580 --> 06:54:25.800 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: 182,000 net income, taxable net income. So again, mind-boggling para sa ordinary mamayan, mga hindi negosyante. Ako, hindi ako masyado sanay sa negosyo. 06:54:27.440 --> 06:54:35.760 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: 182,000 ang net income ng iyong first franchise. And yet, 06:54:35.920 --> 06:54:36.780 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: on 06:54:36.880 --> 06:55:09.800 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: that same year after, nakabili ka ng another franchise and another franchise hanggang sa dumating sa 6 na franchise. In fact, kung titingnan sa records, i-average na natin from 2022, 2021 to 2025 thereafter, ang average net income ng bawat Jollibee nila ay only 3 million and yet lumili ito na every year nakakabili sila ng panibagong franchise. Parang it adds up to that. So paano po nangyari yun sa inyong pag-istima? 06:55:11.830 --> 06:55:32.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Unrecorded transactions, may unrecorded cash flow po talaga and nakikita naman po natin doon sa aming report na malaki po yung cash flow na hindi po mapasok. So mari pong galing dito sa Unreported cash flow po yung ginagamit nilang pera para makabili po ng additional franchises 06:55:32.710 --> 06:55:42.180 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: po. Ito po, very basic na tanong. Bakit po hindi lang nireport? Anong reason behind why are they not accurately reporting yung mga cash flows nila? 06:55:44.460 --> 06:55:45.500 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: For what purpose? 06:55:45.880 --> 06:55:54.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pagka hindi po kayo nagre-report eh, hindi nyo po nire-report yun para pinaka-basic po doon para bumaba po yung babayaran yung tax. 06:55:55.680 --> 06:55:58.660 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So, Tax evasion. Okay. 06:56:00.740 --> 06:56:34.620 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sige. Now, isa na lamang po. Dito sa page 25, Metro City Chow. Sabi nyo dito, undeclared inflows of Metro City Chow. The money deposited into Metro City Chow's bank accounts was consistently higher than the collections generated from its restaurants operations based on its audited financial statements. So, ibig sabihin, yung mga deposito. sa bangko mula dito sa mga restaurant ng Metro City Chow, hindi bumabangga sa sales, sa collection? 06:56:34.620 --> 06:56:35.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:56:35.180 --> 06:56:36.000 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Is that what you mean? 06:56:36.000 --> 06:56:37.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 06:56:37.510 --> 06:56:41.070 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Bakit po nagkaganon? Ano naman pong simptomas ito? 06:56:41.070 --> 06:56:44.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pareho po ng Gen Corp, pareho po ng Calilung 88 06:56:44.990 --> 06:56:49.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. Underreporting po yan ng revenue. So, hindi po nagbabalansan. 06:56:49.870 --> 06:57:10.310 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Last na lamang. So, maraming deposit. Consistent yan. Every year. Ang taas ng deposit and yet yung collection, yung sales nasa mababa. So ang nakapagtakas saan galing yung pera na pinandeposit na wala naman pala sa, hindi tumutugma sa income. 06:57:11.730 --> 06:57:38.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po yan pero kulang po yung aming information para masabing. sales po siya or gano kalaki po yung kanya pong operations at kung meron pa pong pinanggagalingan pong iba. Alam ko po yung tinutukoy nyo pero kami po isipin lang po namin na kumbaga unreported revenue. Kung meron pong pinanggagalingan na iba other than operations hindi po 06:57:38.040 --> 06:57:39.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: namin alam kung saan po 06:57:39.100 --> 06:57:39.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung nagagaling. 06:57:40.040 --> 06:57:52.900 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So base po sa inyong karanasan Madalas bang mangyari ito sa ibang negosyo o bibihira o first time niyo makaranig ng ganitong sitwasyon sa negosyo? In your experience. 06:57:52.900 --> 06:57:54.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not at this 06:57:54.040 --> 06:57:54.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: amounts po eh. 06:57:55.870 --> 06:57:58.070 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nangyayari pero not at this huge amount. 06:57:58.290 --> 06:58:31.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Not at this amounts po. Tsaka nangyayari naman po sa tunay na buhay po yung dalawang books of accounts tapos hindi po nakadeclare lahat. Kasi po marami po ang mga malilit na negosyo na kailangan din nilang mag-survive po siguro yun ang kanilang dahilan. Gusto nilang gamitin yung pera nila para sa negosyo, para bumalik po sa negosyo. Pero yun po nakikita natin bumabalik po sa negosyo yung pera. Ito po eh papasok yung pera at lalabas. 06:58:32.100 --> 06:58:42.190 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kasi ito po ay narinig ko common practice sa ibang mga negosyante. Dito sa Pilipinas, na dalawang libro nila. Isang libro na totoo, isang libro para sa BIR. 06:58:42.570 --> 06:58:43.170 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Of 06:58:43.270 --> 06:59:09.660 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: course, yun ay para makatipid sa tax at para gumanda-ganda yung takbo ng negosyo nila. Tuloy-tuloy lang hanggang sa sila ay mahuli ng BIR at sila ay mapapadala ng LOA. Mari hindi mo ito alam pero ito nainik na balibalita. Now, in this case, dito sa Metro City Chow, Bakit hindi nahabol ng BIR to? Ba't hindi nakikita ng BIR? 06:59:09.660 --> 06:59:11.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po alam. Wala pong 06:59:11.580 --> 06:59:15.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: idea bakit po hindi nakikita. 06:59:15.120 --> 06:59:15.520 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Ano? 06:59:17.770 --> 06:59:27.390 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kasi di po ba? So ang BIR ba hindi na tinitingnan yung deposits and then yung sales para pagbanggain nila, para malaman nila kung ito ba yung nagbabayad ng 06:59:27.390 --> 06:59:53.310 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: tamang buwis? Hindi ko alam paano mag-operate yung BIR. Hindi ganun ang mag-operate yung BIR kasi... Para sa akin dapat, para malaman talaga yung tamang buwis, tamang kinikita o tamang binabayad, yung deposits mo kung ikaw business at yung inyong sales, pagbabanggain. Pero kung ang laki pala ng deposit mo, tapos maliit lang yung sales mo, there's something wrong. And then tawagan natin AMLC or something like that. 06:59:53.630 --> 06:59:58.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So pag may indication na po ng fraud, gagawin po yun ng BIR? Sa ngayon, hindi. 07:00:00.000 --> 07:00:04.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Baka po, hindi ko po alam ang status po. Wala pong information po. 07:00:04.630 --> 07:00:11.710 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, sige yan lang. Maraming salamat po sa patience ninyo, Mr. Witness. And Mr. Presiding Officer, maraming salamat po. 07:00:11.890 --> 07:00:16.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you for your patience. One more, Senator Judge. Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized. 07:00:18.960 --> 07:00:20.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thereafter, Senator Judge Sotto. 07:00:20.660 --> 07:00:22.200 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, good afternoon again. 07:00:24.150 --> 07:00:35.120 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Base doon sa report po ninyo, ginoong Cabrera, ilan po ang... Personal accounts na binusisi ninyo? Would you know? 07:00:37.010 --> 07:00:37.690 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Between 07:00:39.390 --> 07:00:43.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 31 to 37 to, pasensya na po. Yes. 07:00:43.710 --> 07:00:55.130 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 9, dito sa table 1 nyo, 9. Sa table 2 nyo, 14. Tama? Accounts. That totals 23. Sa table 3 nyo, 5. 07:00:56.910 --> 07:00:59.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And then sa table 4 nyo, 2. 07:00:59.760 --> 07:01:00.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 31. 07:01:00.520 --> 07:01:01.280 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 31. 07:01:01.760 --> 07:01:06.460 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tapos these are all personal or together or spouses or 07:01:06.460 --> 07:01:06.840 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: both? 07:01:06.840 --> 07:01:07.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Combination po ako. 07:01:07.920 --> 07:01:12.480 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. So 31. At 37. 07:01:13.540 --> 07:01:14.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 37. 07:01:14.500 --> 07:01:17.660 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 37 accounts. Ilan yung investments sa insurance? 07:01:19.410 --> 07:01:21.330 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Nabilang namin 19? 07:01:21.330 --> 07:01:21.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:01:21.830 --> 07:01:22.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 19 po. 07:01:22.870 --> 07:01:26.610 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 37 accounts, bank accounts. 07:01:29.040 --> 07:01:37.050 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 19 investments, and then, yung isa pala, single proprietorship, so personal pa rin yun, ano? 07:01:37.190 --> 07:01:37.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:01:37.890 --> 07:01:41.310 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Were you able to see checks at the photocopies of the checks? 07:01:42.370 --> 07:01:49.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Whenever meron po, nakita po namin, pero hindi po kasi kompleto, meron po mga banko po na hindi po nagbibigay ng check. 07:01:50.110 --> 07:01:57.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, I understand, these are their accounts, sila rin ang signatory? 07:01:57.070 --> 07:01:57.470 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Oo 07:01:57.470 --> 07:01:57.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 07:01:57.980 --> 07:02:03.280 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, it was, sino ang mga signatory dun sa mga checks si Atty. Carpio? 07:02:03.880 --> 07:02:04.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 07:02:04.640 --> 07:02:05.100 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. 07:02:06.080 --> 07:02:10.880 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, just to clarify, would that 07:02:12.870 --> 07:02:16.400 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: be usual in your experience? 07:02:16.920 --> 07:02:19.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: To have those many accounts po? 07:02:19.640 --> 07:02:19.820 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. 07:02:20.440 --> 07:02:20.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 07:02:20.900 --> 07:02:26.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa mayaman pong tao siguro, hindi ko po, hindi pa po ako nakaranas ng ganun, hindi po ako mayaman. 07:02:26.880 --> 07:02:27.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 07:02:27.340 --> 07:02:27.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po ako nakaranas. 07:02:27.940 --> 07:02:28.060 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: No, 07:02:28.060 --> 07:02:31.160 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: but you have, You have audited? 07:02:31.160 --> 07:02:32.060 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: yung mga... 07:02:32.060 --> 07:02:32.340 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ah, 07:02:32.900 --> 07:02:34.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po ganun karaming accounts. 07:02:34.740 --> 07:02:35.540 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Di ba? 07:02:35.620 --> 07:02:36.160 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kahit mayaman. 07:02:36.400 --> 07:02:38.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kahit mayaman po, ito po yan. Hindi po ganun karaming accounts. 07:02:39.100 --> 07:02:56.320 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Oo. Tsaka hindi pa kasama dito yung korporasyon. Tama po. Di ba? So, 37 personal accounts, 19 insurance policies and investments, at ilang bank accounts ang corporate accounts pa? 15 ba ang na-check nyo? 07:02:58.820 --> 07:02:59.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede po ako magtanong. 07:03:04.700 --> 07:03:08.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero parang hindi po kasing dami sa individual po. 07:03:09.100 --> 07:03:14.260 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And sino naman ang signatories dun sa mga korporasyon? Yung checks. 07:03:16.050 --> 07:03:16.570 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Were 07:03:16.570 --> 07:03:17.390 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: you able to check that? 07:03:17.630 --> 07:03:21.890 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Parang hindi po. Kasi yung signatory po kung sino po yung ma-assign ng company na mag -sign. 07:03:22.710 --> 07:03:50.370 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Although these are corporate accounts of which they are shareholders or directors. And moving on to that. Nabanggit niyo kasi na they were engaged in business. Medyo issue yan eh. Kasi if you're a shareholder, are you engaged in business? Or if you're a director, are you participating in the business? 07:03:50.950 --> 07:03:56.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yeah, tama po. So yung... Yung sa Constitution po kasi business interests. 07:03:56.680 --> 07:03:57.160 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 07:03:57.160 --> 07:04:04.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi po yung engagement business. So yung business interest po, stockholder pa lang po, meron ka na pong business interest. 07:04:05.480 --> 07:04:06.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kahit 07:04:06.080 --> 07:04:34.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi ka po member ng board because a stockholder has the right to attend meetings, even the right to force meetings, they have the right to dividends, they... Have the right to the assets when the assets are liquidated. Tapos meron po sila mga voting rights in the case po ng mga tulad po ng kung meron pong mergers and acquisitions, may voting rights po sila. So participating po in business po yun. 07:04:36.110 --> 07:04:37.230 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Or so kung director? 07:04:37.890 --> 07:04:42.150 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Lalo na po kung director kasi ang corporate acts po ay ginagawa po through the board. 07:04:42.590 --> 07:04:43.010 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. 07:04:46.220 --> 07:04:47.540 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Dito naman po sa... 07:04:49.930 --> 07:04:54.370 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tatlong kompanya ang inyong tinutukan. 07:04:57.150 --> 07:04:58.230 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: MetroCity 07:04:58.230 --> 07:04:58.570 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Chow, 07:04:58.710 --> 07:05:00.990 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: GenCorp, Cali88. 07:05:01.090 --> 07:05:01.870 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: At 07:05:01.870 --> 07:05:09.490 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: dito sa tatlong kompanya na ito, sinabi ninyo meron ding tax deficiencies. 07:05:09.750 --> 07:05:10.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:05:10.850 --> 07:05:18.290 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yung binanggit ba ninyong 250 million tax deficiency is for personal or... 07:05:18.820 --> 07:05:26.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi po, pinierce po namin yung veil. Kaya yung ginamit po namin tax rate po doon, individual tax rate po. 07:05:26.300 --> 07:05:28.360 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So that's for, just for GENCOR? 07:05:29.120 --> 07:05:37.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: GENCOR po, after piercing the bill. Pero wala po yun doon sa 817, wala pong factor yun. 07:05:37.460 --> 07:05:38.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: In 07:05:38.020 --> 07:05:45.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: -add lang po namin yun just to give some numbers doon sa tax violation po. 07:05:45.540 --> 07:05:51.780 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: But you also mentioned undeclared or? Tax deficiencies in other companies. Possible, di ba? 07:05:51.900 --> 07:05:52.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That's right po. 07:05:52.680 --> 07:05:53.020 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 07:05:53.020 --> 07:05:57.020 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: yung 250 million tax deficiency ay para sa GenCorp lang? 07:05:57.240 --> 07:05:59.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, meron po kaming summary po dun sa report namin. 07:05:59.820 --> 07:06:00.120 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 07:06:00.120 --> 07:06:01.900 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: magkano ang total tax deficiency? 07:06:04.090 --> 07:06:06.690 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Sa mga na... Sandali lang po. Sandali, oo. 07:06:11.460 --> 07:06:12.260 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tinotal mo ba? 07:06:14.030 --> 07:06:14.590 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And 07:06:17.920 --> 07:06:21.180 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: for the period 20... What period? 07:06:22.840 --> 07:06:25.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ano po ito eh, naka 4 years na po. 07:06:25.410 --> 07:06:25.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang 07:06:25.970 --> 07:06:44.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: total po nito basic lang po, 158,036,000 pesos. Pero basic lang po ito. Kung tunay na assessment po, syempre po meron po mga penalties. At kung fraud assessment po, may 50%. 07:06:44.390 --> 07:06:44.510 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: No, 07:06:44.510 --> 07:06:45.890 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: this is separate from the 250. 07:06:50.390 --> 07:06:52.950 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Sabi niyo 250 sa GenCorp pa lang. 07:06:53.430 --> 07:06:56.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ah, nagtiteoretical po kasi tayo doon kanina eh. 07:06:56.390 --> 07:06:57.920 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ah, okay. 07:06:57.920 --> 07:06:59.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sandali lang po. 07:06:59.460 --> 07:07:00.180 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And 07:07:09.230 --> 07:07:12.530 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: this 150 is for corporations? 07:07:13.270 --> 07:07:15.690 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Total na po ng individual tsaka corporation. 07:07:15.730 --> 07:07:16.170 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: okay 07:07:16.810 --> 07:07:23.370 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So yung 250 na hindi binayad, theoretical yun, hindi yun yung actual na amount? 07:07:24.590 --> 07:07:25.310 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 07:07:26.980 --> 07:07:27.960 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: how do you 07:07:27.960 --> 07:07:28.620 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: reconcile? 07:07:28.620 --> 07:07:31.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: I-reconcile ko po mamaya pa after po nito. 07:07:31.920 --> 07:07:32.420 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Medyo 07:07:34.530 --> 07:07:38.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero kung ano man po yung nasa report ko, conservative po itong amounts na to. 07:07:38.770 --> 07:07:50.160 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. So, sige. Now, my last few questions. Sinabi ninyo the auditor of Metro Chau issued a qualified opinion. 07:07:50.760 --> 07:07:51.500 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:07:52.100 --> 07:08:03.620 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ano ibig sabihin sa layman's terms? Qualified opinion. And you also said hindi dapat, well, in your professional judgment, it should not have been qualified. It should have been? 07:08:04.700 --> 07:08:07.700 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung level po ng understatement should have been adverse po. 07:08:07.720 --> 07:08:08.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: adverse opinion 07:08:09.580 --> 07:08:55.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung Metro City Chow po kasi dalawa po yung area po nung qualification niya sa cash po at saka sa inventory. Pagka doon po yung qualification niyo, pervasive na po yun eh. Kumbaga laganap na po yung impact niya sa buong financial statements. Kasi yung cash po, alam po natin ang cash. Pero yung inventory po, meron po yung kasamang mga payables din. Nag-iimpact po yan sa cost of sales, nag-iimpact po yan sa revenue. Kaya pagka yung inventory po ang hindi nyo natignan, talaga po magiging pervasive yun. Hindi naman po kailangang obserbaan yung inventory count. Meron po naman yung mga inventory count sheets. 07:08:55.830 --> 07:08:56.310 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede nyo 07:08:56.310 --> 07:08:57.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: rin pong tignan yung... 07:08:57.410 --> 07:09:10.130 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: subsidiary ledger for purchases, you analyze yung cost of sales, pwede pong makita yun eh. Pero wala po silang ginawa doon, nag-qualify po sila ng opinion. 07:09:10.520 --> 07:09:27.580 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: As they were not able to verify the cash account and observe physical counting of inventories due to certain limitations imposed by the management. Pero you can only speculate ano yung limitations imposed by management. 07:09:27.920 --> 07:09:34.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yun po yung simple way po of saying na kung may nakita man sila, kanila na lang po yun. 07:09:35.520 --> 07:09:36.720 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ano ibig sabihin nun? 07:09:36.880 --> 07:09:40.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasi po bago po mag-limit ang management, magre-raise ka eh. 07:09:40.700 --> 07:09:41.260 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. 07:09:41.540 --> 07:09:49.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Mag-audit kayo ha. From the start, bawal kayo tumingin ng cash ha. Bawal kayo tumingin ng inventory. Bakit nyo po tatanggapin yung ganong trabaho? 07:09:50.760 --> 07:10:06.020 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po ba sobrang unusual po noon na, sige, lahat ng related sa inventory, lahat ng related sa cash, hindi ko titignan. Dapat po, mag-disclaimer of opinion kung walang audit at kung talaga pong pervasive, dapat po 07:10:06.020 --> 07:10:09.740 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So are you 07:10:09.740 --> 07:10:13.560 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: speculating or are you based on your... 07:10:13.560 --> 07:10:13.640 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: No, 07:10:13.700 --> 07:10:13.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: based 07:10:13.860 --> 07:10:16.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: on my experience Wala pong 07:10:16.040 --> 07:10:22.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: auditor natatanggap ng ganun eh. I-audit mo kung hindi mo pwedeng tingnan ng cash at inventory ah. 07:10:22.880 --> 07:10:23.320 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ay 07:10:23.320 --> 07:10:25.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: tiyak na pahamak po yun. 07:10:25.200 --> 07:10:30.120 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Because dapat talaga yung cash at inventory nakalagay doon sa financial statement. 07:10:30.160 --> 07:10:39.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Nandun po yun. Kasi po pagka nag-audit po kayo at nag-i-issue ng financial statement, hindi nyo po ito ginagawa para po doon sa kumpanya. Ginagawa nyo po ito para sa public. 07:10:39.440 --> 07:10:39.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Para 07:10:39.880 --> 07:10:41.080 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: masabi po sa public. 07:10:41.180 --> 07:10:41.200 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kaya na kayo 07:10:41.200 --> 07:10:42.080 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: public accountant. 07:10:42.080 --> 07:10:42.200 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 07:10:42.200 --> 07:10:42.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 07:10:42.940 --> 07:10:58.180 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Dahil ang korporasyon, Siyempre, kailangan merong check at regulation ng gobyerno para hindi inaabuso ng mga korporasyon ang kanilang pagiging korporasyon. 07:10:58.240 --> 07:10:59.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:10:59.280 --> 07:11:08.500 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. Now, what should have been the opinion if it were, kung maganda ang trabaho, maayos yung records, maayos yung inventory. 07:11:08.640 --> 07:11:08.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Clean 07:11:08.820 --> 07:11:10.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: opinion po. Clean opinion. 07:11:10.260 --> 07:11:10.680 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Clean opinion. 07:11:11.040 --> 07:11:13.780 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So in this case, hindi sa clean opinion. 07:11:13.780 --> 07:11:14.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po. 07:11:14.620 --> 07:11:23.900 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At ito yung mga accountants nila. Hindi kayo ito. Hindi kayo ang naglabas nung qualified opinion. Tama? 07:11:23.900 --> 07:11:25.380 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po kami. 07:11:25.380 --> 07:11:28.420 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: External auditor nila. 07:11:28.740 --> 07:11:32.820 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: External auditor po nila yan. At pare-pareho po yung kanilang external auditor. 07:11:34.540 --> 07:11:38.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Elises and Ciudadano, CPAs. 07:11:39.890 --> 07:12:04.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Doon po sa Metro, Gen Corp, Calle. Isa lang po yung partner, si Mr. Juan C. Frivaldo. Pero po doon sa individual accounts po, individual return po, na may financial statements po ni Bipisara at nangasawa niya po, si Mr. Ralph Renzo Naquila po yung auditor. Pero puro po sila taga Elises and Ciudadano. 07:12:04.950 --> 07:12:12.010 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kayo ba sa experience niyong matagal na? Marami na rin kayong inilabas na adverse opinions sa inyong pag-audit? 07:12:19.120 --> 07:12:24.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kunti lang po. Kasi po yung magsisimula po kasi yung trabaho sa survey. 07:12:25.160 --> 07:12:25.680 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 07:12:25.680 --> 07:12:27.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sa survey pa lang po titignan nyo kung auditable. 07:12:28.480 --> 07:12:29.000 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 07:12:29.000 --> 07:12:32.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: auditable. Kaya I don't know kung... 07:12:32.060 --> 07:12:32.680 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So 07:12:32.680 --> 07:12:33.100 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: in other words, 07:12:33.160 --> 07:12:34.620 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: parang siyang sinasala. O 07:12:34.620 --> 07:12:35.940 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: sinasala. Pag lumalabas 07:12:35.940 --> 07:12:37.920 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: na hindi auditable, hindi nyo na itutuloy. 07:12:37.980 --> 07:12:46.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Well, pag hindi siya auditable... Siyempre ayaw din po ng cliente yun na ipagawa sa amin kasi hindi naman po kami rubber stamp. 07:12:47.090 --> 07:12:47.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So 07:12:47.570 --> 07:12:50.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: pagka hindi po siya auditable, magbabago po yung tulong namin. 07:12:50.970 --> 07:12:51.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang 07:12:51.450 --> 07:12:55.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: i-offer po namin, pwede ba kitang tulungan na i-improve ang books mo, 07:12:55.590 --> 07:12:56.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: mag 07:12:56.010 --> 07:13:12.590 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: -improve ang governance mo, mag-record ka ng maayos, mag-accounting ka ng maayos. So habang, pag natulungan po namin silang ganun, magiging auditable na po sila. Pero hindi po kami yung mag-audit. Kasi magkakaroon po kami ng independence issue na kami po lahat yung tumulong. 07:13:12.590 --> 07:13:13.250 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tapos kayo rin 07:13:13.250 --> 07:13:13.850 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: na nag-audit. 07:13:13.850 --> 07:13:26.710 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Because that will be self-audit. Pero at least auditable na po sila. So lahat po yan, mangyayari po yan sa simula po, yung evaluation po. During the audit survey, pakikipag-usap po sa officers. 07:13:28.530 --> 07:13:35.550 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Titignan din po namin yung working papers po ng naon ng auditor. Ganun po yung mga prosesong gagawin. 07:13:35.550 --> 07:13:36.330 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So you have 07:13:38.530 --> 07:13:45.670 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Rarely, but you have issued adverse opinions. You have also issued qualified opinions. 07:13:45.670 --> 07:13:46.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Mas 07:13:46.210 --> 07:14:11.220 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: yung qualified opinion po ang, kasi yung qualified opinion po, maaari po siyang, based sa limbawa po sa accounting treatment. So yung accounting treatment, magkaiba po kami ng tingin. At gusto po ng clienteeng gawin yung kanila, yung sa amin naman iba yung tingin namin. Minsan po nagko-qualify po ng opinion on the effects po. Nung accounting po nila for a certain account. So 07:14:11.220 --> 07:14:25.600 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: dahil yung kanilang auditor ay nagbigay ng qualified opinion, so ano ang, to wrap this up, in layman's terms, ano ibig sabihin ng qualified opinion? Sa man on the street. 07:14:25.720 --> 07:14:41.560 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ang qualified opinion po, ang sinasabi po niya, yung financial statements ayos sana eh. Kaso may konting problema sa gantong mga bagay. Yung sinasabi ko lamang po ay hindi po reliable yung financial statement. 07:14:41.800 --> 07:14:42.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung 07:14:42.480 --> 07:14:52.240 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: ang qualification mo cash at inventory at ang dahilan ng qualification mo ay hindi mo kasi tinignan o merong limitation, eh bakit ka nag clean opinion? 07:14:52.900 --> 07:14:53.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi 07:14:53.580 --> 07:14:55.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: mo lang alam kung gaano kalaki yung... 07:14:57.630 --> 07:15:04.910 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Problema sa cash. Tulad po ng GenCorp po na sa computation namin merong 87% na under declaration. 07:15:05.370 --> 07:15:05.970 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: O 07:15:05.970 --> 07:15:10.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: hindi, baliwala na po yung qualified. Talagang adverse opinion dapat ang inabot po nun. 07:15:10.610 --> 07:15:13.850 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At ang adverse opinion sa Tagalog? 07:15:13.930 --> 07:15:17.230 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi mapagkakatiwalaan yung financial statement po. 07:15:17.530 --> 07:15:17.870 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. 07:15:17.970 --> 07:15:20.230 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Salamat. Maraming salamat. 07:15:20.230 --> 07:15:20.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator 07:15:20.830 --> 07:15:22.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Judge Sotto is recognized. 07:15:27.200 --> 07:15:38.450 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Atty. Cabrera, my question would either elicit felicitations for you or not. But it's not directed to you. The question is to the presiding officer. 07:15:40.170 --> 07:15:49.190 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Mr. presiding officer, did Atty. Cabrera beat the record of Executive Director Benaventura? 07:15:50.810 --> 07:15:56.510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Tinanong ko kayo kanina, Tito Sen, kung mahirap yung tanong sa sagot niyo. Buti na lang tinanong ko a few minutes ago. 07:15:57.090 --> 07:15:57.610 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: I 07:15:57.610 --> 07:15:58.150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: will respond. 07:16:00.850 --> 07:16:17.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Depsek, Deputy Clerk of Court, Mavic just gave it to me. Labindalawang oras po umupo dyan si Atty. Ronel, si Atty. Cabrera, kumatapos tayo ng alasais, samput kalahating oras pa lang. So silver medalist lang ito kung saka 07:16:17.840 --> 07:16:18.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: -saka. 07:16:18.260 --> 07:16:31.200 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Okay, so you do not get my felicitations, but you receive my gratitude. Thank you very much for staying there, the witness. And that's all. Thank you, kind sir. 07:16:32.100 --> 07:16:33.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Lacson is recognized. 07:16:35.350 --> 07:17:03.560 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Two very quick points, Mr. President Officer, just so we can rectify and spread it to the records, about the SALN. With all due respect to the Presiding Officer, tama po si Artur Di Cabrera na pag-real estate, acquisition, pati improvements kasama. So, para lang maliwanag yung, this is a spare Section 8A of RA 6713. 07:17:05.580 --> 07:17:24.880 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pagka po personal properties, hindi kasama improvement. Alimbawa yung sports car ni Sen. Lapid, nilagyan ng mag-wheel. Hindi na po kailangan i-declare. So yun lang po. Pangalawa po, hindi ko alam kung fact-check ang tawag dito kasi chat GP ito yung aking reference. 07:17:26.890 --> 07:17:46.770 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yung isang franchise, isang store ng Jollibee, in 2022, 35 to 55. Tama po yun. Pero 2025, 40 million to 70, 45 million to 70 million. So tama po kayo. Very conservative yung inyong ginamit ng mga figures. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 07:17:46.770 --> 07:17:47.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 07:17:47.010 --> 07:18:08.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to continue with the SALN, while some forms include fair market value of the real property, it is not part of the computation of the net worth. Only acquisition cost is factored in with respect to computing the net worth as per civil service regulations. Just brief interjections from this representation before we call it a day. 07:18:12.890 --> 07:18:42.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honorable Diokno, just to put everything in perspective, given that Atty. Cabrera is your last witness. Your Article 2 allegation in the complaint is Respondent VP Sarah Duterte committed culpable violation of the Constitution and betrayed public trust when she, quote, amassed unexplained wealth manifestly disproportionate to her lawful income and earnings during her incumbency as a public official. I presume this is for the period 2022 to 2025, correct? 07:18:42.630 --> 07:18:43.290 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:18:43.290 --> 07:18:49.490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And that is why you presented bank officials, insurance officials, and the AMLC, I guess. 07:18:49.910 --> 07:18:50.530 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:18:50.970 --> 07:19:11.150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: B. Failed to fully and truthfully disclose all her and her spouse's assets, liabilities, net worth in her statement of assets and liabilities and net worth, including her SALN for 2022, 23, and 24. That is why, again, those witnesses were presented, including now, Attorney Cabrera. 07:19:11.350 --> 07:19:12.050 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:19:12.980 --> 07:19:25.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: failed to divest and instead willfully continued all her business interests during her tenure as VP for the years 22 to 2025. That's why the SEC was presented, I guess. 07:19:25.980 --> 07:19:28.120 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: As well as the SALNs, if your honor, please. 07:19:28.320 --> 07:19:36.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As well as the SALNs with the Office of the Ombudsman, yes, correct. Thank you, Honorable Diokno. No, still on you. 07:19:38.350 --> 07:19:43.730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, you alleged unexplained wealth, correct? 07:19:44.360 --> 07:19:45.060 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:19:45.340 --> 07:19:47.760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Which is different from ill-gotten wealth. 07:19:48.120 --> 07:19:48.920 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:19:49.200 --> 07:19:55.770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ika nga sa Tagalog, unexplained wealth, hindi may paliwanag na yaman, ill-gotten wealth, nakaw na yaman. 07:19:55.770 --> 07:19:56.750 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:19:56.750 --> 07:20:01.370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hidden wealth also you did not allege. Sa Tagalog, tagong yaman. 07:20:01.370 --> 07:20:02.450 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:20:02.450 --> 07:20:10.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, what Atty. Cabrera, Atty. Alex stated is unexplained wealth, which is not exactly defined by law. 07:20:12.350 --> 07:20:15.810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Or are you aware of any law that defines unexplained wealth? 07:20:16.190 --> 07:20:20.370 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: I believe it appears in Section 8 of Republic Act 1319. In 07:20:20.370 --> 07:20:22.790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: connection with the declaration that you have to make? 07:20:22.790 --> 07:20:23.310 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, 07:20:23.430 --> 07:20:27.030 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: in connection with Republic Act 1379, Section 2, Your Honor. 07:20:27.470 --> 07:20:31.550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, in relation to the declarations you have to make? 07:20:31.550 --> 07:20:32.070 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes. 07:20:32.270 --> 07:20:32.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Correct? 07:20:32.890 --> 07:20:33.650 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:20:33.830 --> 07:20:35.850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, thank you very much, Honorable Diokno. 07:20:36.250 --> 07:20:37.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Alex, 07:20:38.410 --> 07:20:42.370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You know the definition of unexplained wealth when you used it in your tables? 07:20:43.470 --> 07:20:43.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 07:20:45.510 --> 07:20:55.010 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Unexplained wealth po is the property, the value of the property acquired which is manifestly disproportionate po to the income. Yun po yung ginamit ko po. 07:20:55.830 --> 07:21:12.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, you pierced the corporate veil. Para sa simpleng salita, isinangtabi nyo yung pagkakaroon ng hiwalay na personalidad ng isang korporasyon sangayon sa batas at tinignan nyo. Yung aktual na mga may-ari sa likod ng korporasyon na iyon, yung mga stockholders mismo, tama po ba? 07:21:13.320 --> 07:21:13.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:21:14.340 --> 07:21:28.540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Under existing law, as a lawyer too and as an accountant, you can only do that for three reasons. Number one, kapag ka ginamit po yung korporasyon para makaiwas sa mga bayarin o mga kontraktual na obligasyon, ito po ba yun o 07:21:28.540 --> 07:21:29.220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: hindi? 07:21:29.220 --> 07:21:29.740 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po. 07:21:30.580 --> 07:21:35.980 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kasama kung yung kontraktual po, hindi po namin alam kung sino po yung pinagkakaupang. 07:21:35.980 --> 07:21:50.040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi nga po yun yung base yan. So hindi po. Ang pangalawa, fraud, illegality or perpetration of a wrong. The corporation is used to justify a wrong, protect fraud, commit or conceal a crime, circumvent a statute or work injustice against another. 07:21:50.860 --> 07:21:54.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede na po magamit po yung pangalawa pong yan dahil po sa tax fraud po. 07:21:55.580 --> 07:22:08.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pangatlo, alter ego or instrumentality. The corporation is a mere farce, business conduit, adjunct or instrumentality. with no genuinely separate mind, will, or existence in the transactions involved. 07:22:09.230 --> 07:22:13.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yan po, possibility po yung pangatlo pero yung pangalawa po yung ginamit po namin. 07:22:13.790 --> 07:22:16.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pero ang nasa ilalim po nung pangalawa ay fraud. 07:22:16.750 --> 07:22:17.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Fraud po. 07:22:17.690 --> 07:22:23.550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So ang rason nyo kung bakit nyo isinantabi yung separate corporate personality ay fraud? 07:22:24.610 --> 07:22:25.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:22:27.170 --> 07:22:49.280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nakita ko po yung ginawa ninyo sa GenCorp, unahin po natin yan. Binanggit na rin ito kanina nila Sen. Pia at Sen. Camille. Kung tama ang sinabi sa valuation base sa open source ni Senator Judge Lacson ng halaga ng Jollibee conservatively at 35 million, nilagay niyo po sa page 10 ang inyong findings. You can check your findings, sir. Yung 35 million. 07:22:49.660 --> 07:22:50.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:22:50.540 --> 07:22:58.080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nilagay niyo po, kada taon nag-contribute yung shareholder na si VP Sara ng 35 million. Tama po ba? Ay hindi 07:22:58.080 --> 07:22:58.440 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 07:22:58.440 --> 07:22:58.720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ano 07:22:58.720 --> 07:22:58.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: po? 07:22:59.040 --> 07:23:06.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung 35 million po doon, yung po yung... continuously undeclared na attributed capital po namin. 07:23:08.520 --> 07:23:12.020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attributed na capital contribution nino? Ni 07:23:12.020 --> 07:23:18.460 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: BP Sara po. Yung 35 po, nauulit lang po yun dahil it continues to be undeclared po. 07:23:18.840 --> 07:23:23.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So hindi to, so minsan lang to dahil kung limang Jollibee branches times 5 is 175. 07:23:24.380 --> 07:23:24.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:23:24.920 --> 07:23:25.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi po ba? 07:23:25.240 --> 07:23:25.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:23:25.800 --> 07:23:27.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So dahil 20% divided by 5, 35. 07:23:28.200 --> 07:23:28.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:23:28.760 --> 07:23:35.040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So hindi po ito na double booking, binanggit lang na... Kada taon, ito yung halagang hindi na dedeklara. 07:23:35.220 --> 07:23:35.580 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pero 07:23:35.580 --> 07:23:38.520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: hindi ito kinarga ng limang beses doon sa 817. 07:23:39.400 --> 07:23:40.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Tama po? 07:23:40.000 --> 07:23:40.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:23:41.080 --> 07:24:00.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ngayon, pagdating naman po sa Metro Chow, sinabi niyo po, advance from shareholders. Pareho din po ng GenCorp, dahil wala naman pong capital contribution na diretso yung mga shareholders sa authorized capital stock, in-assume po natin, base sa AFS, na nag-advance yung mga shareholders. Tama po? 07:24:01.360 --> 07:24:04.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Yung sa AFS po yung may advances lang po is Cale88 po. 07:24:04.960 --> 07:24:08.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, Cale88 lang. Eto pong GenCorp, in-assume lang po ninyo ito. 07:24:08.820 --> 07:24:10.120 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ay, nasa GIS po yan. 07:24:11.080 --> 07:24:13.220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yung shares po, hindi yung advances of shareholders. 07:24:13.680 --> 07:24:17.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ay, wala po kaming advances ng GenCorp. 07:24:17.300 --> 07:24:20.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: There is no record of advances of shareholders for GenCorp. Wala 07:24:20.780 --> 07:24:23.720 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. GenCorp and Metro City Chow po wala po. 07:24:23.720 --> 07:24:26.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Wala po. So Cale lang ang may advances of shareholders. 07:24:26.820 --> 07:24:27.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:24:27.180 --> 07:24:32.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So pag sinabi mo pong advances ng shareholders, pautang po ito? shareholder sa kumpanya. 07:24:32.910 --> 07:24:36.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pautang po ng shareholder sa kumpanya po. So, 07:24:36.490 --> 07:24:38.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: binook niyo po ito as asset receivable. 07:24:41.270 --> 07:24:42.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Tama po, receivable. 07:24:43.270 --> 07:24:45.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pautang eh. Sa kumpanya po. 07:24:46.320 --> 07:24:48.560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa kumpanya? Sige, sila po 07:24:48.560 --> 07:24:49.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: dapat, sila po dapat yun. 07:24:49.880 --> 07:24:51.400 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Payable po yan ng kumpanya po. 07:24:51.940 --> 07:24:54.500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Utang nga po ng kumpanya kay vice president. 07:24:54.880 --> 07:24:58.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Ah, sa... kay Atty. Manz Carpio. Ah, 07:24:58.410 --> 07:25:00.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sorry, sorry, kay Atty. Manz, yung Cali. So, 07:25:00.290 --> 07:25:02.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: payable po yan ng Cali88. 07:25:03.070 --> 07:25:05.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Utang po ng Cali88 yan kay Atty. Manz. 07:25:05.770 --> 07:25:06.230 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:25:06.650 --> 07:25:09.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi pa po nababayaran. So, receivable po siya. 07:25:11.010 --> 07:25:14.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Receivable po siya ni Atty. Manz po. Payable po siya ng company po. 07:25:15.230 --> 07:25:19.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Payable ng company, receivable ni Atty. Manz. Matuturin niyo po bang asset yan? 07:25:19.850 --> 07:25:20.250 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Na 07:25:20.250 --> 07:25:21.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: kailangan ideklara sa SALN? 07:25:22.070 --> 07:25:22.810 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dapat rin po. 07:25:23.310 --> 07:25:24.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Bakit po? Hindi pa naman bayad yung utang. 07:25:25.640 --> 07:25:29.960 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po. Dapat po siyang i-deklara po sa SALN po. 07:25:31.370 --> 07:25:32.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Bakit nga po? 07:25:32.490 --> 07:25:33.990 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Dahil po receivable po siya. 07:25:34.550 --> 07:25:44.670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So lahat ng receivables from the accounting point of view, maski hindi pa aktual na nababayaran, kailangan mo i-deklara bilang parte ng asset mo. 07:25:44.910 --> 07:25:45.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:25:46.120 --> 07:26:04.560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kasi baliktad po, kapag nag-advance naman ako sa future dividends, utang ko naman yun. Bale yun eh. Parang bumalay ako sa kumpanya. Bumalay ako sa boss ko. Yun naman po ay utang ng shareholder sa kumpanya. Di 07:26:04.560 --> 07:26:04.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ba? 07:26:04.980 --> 07:26:07.540 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo, advances to employees po. 07:26:07.540 --> 07:26:07.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kahit 07:26:07.980 --> 07:26:08.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: shareholder. 07:26:08.780 --> 07:26:09.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Or stockholders. 07:26:10.060 --> 07:26:10.500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 07:26:10.730 --> 07:26:15.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: mentioned the amounts of money that came in and out of the corporations. 07:26:15.890 --> 07:26:16.330 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: And 07:26:16.330 --> 07:26:20.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sabi mo, pumasok yan dyan, alang nga namang hindi nila pinaghati yan. Di ba yun po 07:26:20.930 --> 07:26:21.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: yung sabi niyo? 07:26:21.470 --> 07:26:25.280 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pag hindi po pumasok, Pag hindi po pumasok. 07:26:25.380 --> 07:26:30.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pag hindi na deklara sa kumpanya pero nakita sa bank account na may pumasok na pera, malamang pinaghatihan yan. 07:26:32.530 --> 07:26:34.390 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Sinisimple ko lang po yung piercing the veil. 07:26:34.630 --> 07:26:35.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Opo, pero... 07:26:35.330 --> 07:26:35.650 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo yun po. 07:26:35.770 --> 07:26:36.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po kayo. 07:26:37.230 --> 07:26:46.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pinapasimple ko pa nga po lalo. So, nakita nyo sa AMLC, nakita nyo sa bank records, may pumasok na pera, hindi na deklara sa EFS ng korporasyon, sa malamang pinaghatihan nila yan. 07:26:47.070 --> 07:26:47.510 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:26:48.160 --> 07:26:53.460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pero dahil walang dineklarang dividend, advance po ito against future dividend. 07:26:56.200 --> 07:27:05.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maaaring po niyong i-record ng ganun po, pero ang recording po kasi sa accounting, yung reflective po of the transaction. 07:27:06.720 --> 07:27:11.480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Opo, pero kung walang dineklarang dividend, e di advance po siya against future dividend. 07:27:13.900 --> 07:27:14.500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi 07:27:14.500 --> 07:27:14.740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: po ba? 07:27:15.760 --> 07:27:19.860 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Mahari pong advance against future dividend? Mahari po yan. 07:27:19.860 --> 07:27:20.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You've 07:27:20.380 --> 07:27:20.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: been in the 07:27:20.660 --> 07:27:34.320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: business for several decades, sir, Atty. Alex. I'm sure you know that that is a practice by most of the big corporations. They simply make an advance against future dividends because the tax will only be imposed once the dividend is declared. 07:27:35.300 --> 07:27:51.780 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Honorable Presiding Officer, kaya po... Kaya po, kung naninimbang sa aking sagot, totoo po na advance against future dividend po, pag nakarecord po sa financial statements at binibigay po sa stockholder po ng on record, ang kakaiba po dito ay hindi po ganun. 07:27:51.880 --> 07:28:01.020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pero dahil nga in-assume ninyo na, di ba, malamang pinaghati-hati yan, ang tamang pag-record nun ay advance on future dividend, kung nirecord 07:28:01.020 --> 07:28:02.840 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: nila. Sige po, kung nirecord po nila, opo. 07:28:03.000 --> 07:28:06.540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: At kung ganun po, ano po yan, utang? 07:28:07.970 --> 07:28:09.270 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Utang po nila sa kumpanya. 07:28:10.290 --> 07:28:11.810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Utang po nila sa kumpanya. 07:28:12.010 --> 07:28:12.570 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:28:12.670 --> 07:28:16.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So dapat po kung mag-a-appear man yun sa SALN, payable 07:28:16.970 --> 07:28:17.210 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 07:28:17.690 --> 07:28:21.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nasa liabilities. 07:28:22.010 --> 07:28:22.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo. 07:28:22.990 --> 07:28:24.090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kung dineklara nila. 07:28:24.370 --> 07:28:25.050 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:28:25.310 --> 07:28:27.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa kasong ito, hindi rin po 07:28:27.070 --> 07:28:27.490 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: dineklara. Hindi po 07:28:27.490 --> 07:28:38.770 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: nakadeklara kasi po ginagamit po yung korporasyon para po makapagtago. Kaya po hindi po yung liability sa company. Kasi isusubi na po yun. Yun po yung tingin po doon. 07:28:39.870 --> 07:28:42.510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa pananaw na po ninyo yun. Wala na po sa dokumento yun. 07:28:43.920 --> 07:28:44.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:28:44.620 --> 07:28:45.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yung parting isusubi. 07:28:47.500 --> 07:28:47.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala 07:28:47.900 --> 07:28:48.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: po sa dokumento yun. 07:28:48.980 --> 07:29:01.880 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Wala po sa dokumento. Subalit po, Honorable Presiding Officer, hindi po nating masabing utang nila sa kumpanya. Pag-pinierce na po yung will, sila na po yung kumpanya eh. Utang nila sa sarili nila. 07:29:02.870 --> 07:29:05.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Opo. Pero hindi rin nga dineklara sa SALN yun. 07:29:06.130 --> 07:29:10.520 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. Wala pong declaration ng income, wala pong declaration ng... 07:29:10.520 --> 07:29:34.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: May natanong po sa inyo kanina to. Ako po ay nag-compute at gumamit ng calculator. Kung duda ako sa GenCorp, ang kabuang GenCorp sa parte ng 817,874,867 ay humigit kumulang 26% o 25.9% o katumbas ng 212,629,718. Kung hindi po ako kumpinsida sa inyo. 07:29:34.400 --> 07:29:34.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama 07:29:34.900 --> 07:29:35.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po. 07:29:35.760 --> 07:29:50.520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kung duda ako dun sa ginawa nyo sa Metro Chau at saka dun sa Cale88, ang kabuhan po noon ay 142,198,690 o 17.3% ng 817 million ninyong kabuhan. 07:29:51.300 --> 07:29:51.900 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So 07:29:51.900 --> 07:30:15.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: pag tinanggal ko po yung dalawang yun may maiiwang pa rin 56.6% mula sa inyong calculation o yung base sa Sa bank accounts, sa insurance policies, ang may iwan po ay 463,046,459 na unexplained wealth base po sa computation niya. Tama po ba yan? 07:30:15.760 --> 07:30:17.480 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung wala po yung mga corporation po. Kung 07:30:17.480 --> 07:30:18.320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: wala po yung mga corporation? 07:30:18.720 --> 07:30:18.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Apo. 07:30:19.460 --> 07:30:20.080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Would that be correct? 07:30:20.280 --> 07:30:20.680 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:30:20.800 --> 07:30:50.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And finally, Atty. Alex, you mentioned you've been conservative with respect to your estimates whether it's a percentage in the company. Whether it's an assumption you made, kung hindi po kayo conservative, kung ito po yung bare minimum, in your expertise and based on your review of the documents, ano po ba yung sukdulang hangganan? Kung ito po yung bare minimum nyo, ano po yung inyong maximum? 07:30:51.880 --> 07:31:43.620 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Based lang po sa mga documents po na nakita namin, hindi ko po sinama ang confidential funds po. So, 475 po yun. Yung discrepancy po namin sa AMLC, kung susundin po natin yung AMLC at hindi po kami conservative, 100 million po yun. Kung hindi po ako conservative sa GenCorp, 45% ang ginamit at i-apply nyo rin po yun dun po sa mga undeclared sales, ang impact po noon ay mga 250 million. So 350 million plus 450 million is 700 po. So parang halos magdodoble po yung amount po. 07:31:43.940 --> 07:31:50.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can you be the one to compute for me, Attorney Alex, please? What would be the total of your ceiling if this is the minimum? 07:31:51.520 --> 07:31:53.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 1.5 po. 07:31:53.840 --> 07:31:55.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 1.5? 07:31:55.060 --> 07:31:55.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 1 07:31:55.180 --> 07:31:56.300 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: .5 billion po. 07:31:57.180 --> 07:32:03.370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ang unexplained... What would be the correct description of that sir? 1.5 ang total? 07:32:04.750 --> 07:32:09.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Mga less than 1.6 po yun. Mga 1.5 po. 07:32:09.360 --> 07:32:09.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How 07:32:09.840 --> 07:32:11.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: would you describe that figure sir? 07:32:11.500 --> 07:32:30.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: That will be unexplained wealth po. Kasi po yung confidential funds po, kahit alam po natin ang pinanggalingan, so parang may explained po. Pero pag ang pinanggalingan po ay hindi po legal, Nagiging unexplained din po siya kahit alam niyo po kung saan ang galing. 07:32:30.300 --> 07:32:42.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'll be more specific, sir. 1.5 billion will be the maximum estimate of the undeclared wealth of the respondent from 2022 to 07:32:42.620 --> 07:32:43.040 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: 2025 07:32:43.040 --> 07:32:46.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: without any double booking. 07:32:48.370 --> 07:32:52.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Magkakaiba pong amount sa kada taon pag sinuma total niyo, yun po yung magiging ceiling. 07:32:52.910 --> 07:32:53.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Would 07:32:53.350 --> 07:32:54.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that be correct? 07:32:54.650 --> 07:32:55.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 07:32:55.250 --> 07:33:05.760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: one final question, sir. Kung hindi po sila nagbayad ng buwis para dyan, hindi po ba dapat binawas nyo yung buwis na dapat bayar dahil hindi naman po kanila yun at dapat binayad sa gobyerno? 07:33:07.320 --> 07:33:09.360 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Pwede naman pong gawin po yun. 07:33:10.570 --> 07:33:14.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So babawas pa rin yun kung saka sakali dun sa total, whether the high or the low? 07:33:14.970 --> 07:33:26.410 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, pero ang unexplained wealth po kasi, di po ba, ay yung total po nung wealth. Ngayon kung may payable po, babawas din po natin yun, kukumpitin po natin yung tax. 07:33:26.800 --> 07:33:28.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Babawas po yun at some point, hindi po ba? At 07:33:28.660 --> 07:33:29.140 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: some point po. 07:33:29.580 --> 07:33:36.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So whether it's the low of 817 or the high of 1.5, any liability would have to be subtracted or deducted from that? 07:33:36.460 --> 07:33:37.060 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:33:38.480 --> 07:33:43.540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you very much, Atty. Alex. The Senate President is recognized. 07:33:44.500 --> 07:34:07.290 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you, Mr. President Officer. Merong follow-up question lang ako dito sa GN Corp. Atty. Alex. Dahil nabuksan ng ating President Officer, Ang sinasabi niyo dahil may lima silang outlet, dapat ang kanilang puhunan ay 175 million. Tama po ba? 07:34:07.390 --> 07:34:10.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Assuming po na 35 million po ang per 07:34:10.350 --> 07:34:10.730 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: outlet. 07:34:11.010 --> 07:34:11.830 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:34:11.970 --> 07:34:18.930 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pero tinitignan po yung kanya lang libro, yung kanilang balance sheet. Ang kanilang puhunan ay 1.25 million. 07:34:19.250 --> 07:34:19.750 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:34:20.010 --> 07:34:22.790 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Nasaan na yung 175 million? 07:34:23.190 --> 07:34:24.610 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po nila na-record po. 07:34:25.230 --> 07:34:31.750 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Bakit ho nila hindi rinecord? Ano ang kanilang objective? Bakit hindi po ire-record? 07:34:35.780 --> 07:34:41.180 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi ko po masabi kung ano po yung objective ng hindi pag-record ng equity pero ang isa po 07:34:41.180 --> 07:34:51.630 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: dun sa maaring dahilan is makatulong po ito pag nag-understate po sila ng income. 07:34:52.830 --> 07:34:59.960 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pag mag-understate sila ng... income. Dahil maliit lang yung sasabihin nila maliit lang yung kanilang puhunan. 07:35:01.180 --> 07:35:20.600 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kailangan po lang po nating maintindihan na hindi po perfecto ang kanila pong menu. Inconsistent po yung kanilang mga menu. Kasi po mababa po yung equity, marami silang asset. Malaki yung kanilang revenue, halos walang income. 07:35:21.390 --> 07:35:21.800 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So, 07:35:22.670 --> 07:35:32.350 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Hindi po natin pwedeng magamit po yung financial statement nila para po ma-rationalize po yung tama po na nangyayari sa negosyo. 07:35:32.450 --> 07:35:36.850 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Dahil wala rin dito, tinitignan ko ngayon, wala rin advances from the shareholders. 07:35:37.450 --> 07:35:37.930 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Tama po. 07:35:41.100 --> 07:35:49.780 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pwede rin ba po ginagawa ito para pagdating sa declaration sa SALN, pwedeng i-undervalue rin? 07:35:50.420 --> 07:35:56.100 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maari po yung dahilan. Ito yung nabanggit niyo po, Honorable Senator Winn. 07:35:57.620 --> 07:36:36.660 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Kung titignan niyo po, hindi po mabibili ng revenue yung mga bagong outlet. So parang hindi po kayo, hindi po sapat yung kinikita po from operations to buy the new outlet. Meron pong pinagagalingan na cash po na iba. Yun po yung isa po sa mga possibilities. Kasi kung hindi po galing sa income, Kasi lugi naman po. So kung ganun ka laging lugi, paano ka nakabili ng outlet ng additional, eh yung kita niya po doon is either lugi or napakalit lang po, parang 1 million lang po yan, napakanipis po ng ano eh. Kaya nakita 07:36:36.660 --> 07:36:39.920 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: niyo rin na may pumapasok, may inflow sa mga personal accounts. 07:36:40.040 --> 07:36:44.160 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Opo, opo. Kasi yung, kasi po, nag-aaway po yung result. 07:36:46.980 --> 07:37:12.850 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maaring binababaan po yung income para hindi po magbayad ng tax. But at the same time, nakikita mo rin na yung income na yun, hindi rin naman makakabili ng outlet, ng additional Jollibee branches. So kung hindi po galing sa income, hindi po galing sa operations, wala pong payable, so yun po yung question mark po kung saan po galing. 07:37:13.030 --> 07:37:18.530 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ang aking track is anong motibo in the whole scheme of things? 07:37:20.530 --> 07:37:25.070 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Anong motibo dito sa pinag-uusapan natin? May base sa inyong experience. 07:37:25.470 --> 07:38:50.450 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: So, Sen. Ruins, tulad nga po nang nasabi ko, kami po nasa na-engage po for unexplained wealth. Yung kaya ko lang pong masabi, yung pinakakabisado ko lang po na motibo, lagi pong yung tax po. Kung meron pong AMLA, anti-money laundering, hindi po kasi ganun yung focus ng aming investigasyon. Magbabago po yung aming procedures kung yun po talaga yung ipofocus namin. Subalit ang aming assignment ay unexplained wealth. Kaya nga po na sabi ko, mari po may mga simptomas, hindi ko po masasabi kung yun po talaga yung mangyayari. Kaya yung best lang po na pwede ko po masabi dito, kung ano lang po yung sinasabi ng numero. At ang sinasabi po ng numero ay undeclared po siya. At meron pong Exposure po sa tax fraud dahil ikukulektaan po ng tax po yun. Maganda nga po sana pag nabayaran po yung tax, masettle po yung tax, parang tapos na po tayo. Ang pagkakaiba nga lang po sa pagkakataong ito is yung obligasyon po ng vicepresidente para po maging accountable po sa kanyang SALN. Yun lang po yung pwede ko po masabi. Pero naiintindihan ko po yung tanong nyo po, Senator, pero kulang po ang aking informasyon para makapag-conclude po. 07:38:50.890 --> 07:39:10.740 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kaya rin po nakikita natin na yung pagpasok ng pera sa kumpanya, magpasok ng pera sa personal accounts, hindi ho reflective dito sa mga libro, hindi ho siya nagtutugma. In other words. At pag dinugtong ho natin yan sa SALN, lalong hindi magtutugma. Maraming salamat, Mr. President. 07:39:10.880 --> 07:39:14.700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Mr. President. Senator Judge Lacson, kindly 07:39:15.500 --> 07:39:16.840 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: turn 07:39:16.840 --> 07:39:18.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: on the mic of Senator Judge Lacson. 07:39:20.000 --> 07:39:20.480 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yeah. 07:39:21.280 --> 07:39:37.260 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yung sinabi niyong confidential fund na hindi niyo sinama pero maaaring isama. Ang reference niyo po ay yung binanggit niyo kanin ng Martinez versus Andigan Bayan. Malversation. Na kapag hindi ka nakapag-liquidate, ang assumption is binulsa mo. 07:39:37.990 --> 07:39:38.670 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Income for 07:39:38.670 --> 07:39:40.150 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: personal 07:39:40.150 --> 07:39:40.790 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: use. Thank 07:39:40.790 --> 07:39:41.690 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 07:39:43.490 --> 07:40:00.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If there are no other interventions from Senator Judges, it's only 10 hours, Atty. Alex. So you've been sitting for a total of 10 hours. The witness is excused. Maraming salamat po, Atty. Alex, sa inyong panahon, oras, pasensya, at 07:40:02.530 --> 07:40:08.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pagsagot sa katanungan ng mga senator-judges, gayon din ng magkabilang partido sa hukumang ito. Salamat po. 07:40:08.430 --> 07:40:09.430 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: Maraming salamat rin 07:40:09.430 --> 07:40:11.670 Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera: po, honorable presiding officer at mga senators. 07:40:13.230 --> 07:40:45.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The court has been in receipt of an October 6th manifestation of the... counsel for the panel of prosecutors as well as the panel of prosecutors stating that they intend to withdraw Article 3 or bribery in the articles of impeachment. And in open court, the Honorable Diokno, I believe, stated that Attorney Alex is their last witness for Article 2 on Ilgaten on unexplained wealth. Would that be correct? 07:40:45.470 --> 07:40:46.090 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your Honor. 07:40:46.730 --> 07:41:05.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The court takes it in advisement. And given that there are some administrative matters that the court has to deal with before or right after the prosecution rests, should that be indeed their intention if they will be dropping Article 3? 07:41:07.580 --> 07:41:41.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The court intends to call it a day and resume tomorrow for the final manifestations to be made by the panel of prosecutors. as well as any other manifestations the parties wish to make as well as administrative matters that the court need to address if indeed the panel of prosecutors will persist in their intention to drop Article 3 and to rest altogether. Atty. Sheila, I saw you raising your hand. Were you saying hi to someone? 07:41:42.510 --> 07:41:43.510 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: No, I was raising my 07:41:43.510 --> 07:41:44.150 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: hand, Your Honor. 07:41:44.250 --> 07:41:45.310 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Good afternoon, Your Honor. 07:41:45.350 --> 07:41:46.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is your pleasure, ma'am? 07:41:46.330 --> 07:42:16.130 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Thank you for acknowledging the defense. Just to be honest, it felt like for the last four, five hours that we're not here. Even that the witness was given extensive platform and opportunity to give his unbridled and erroneous conclusions of law and fact. But nonetheless, Your Honor, I have a few manifestations. 07:42:17.930 --> 07:42:19.230 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: We've heard... 07:42:19.230 --> 07:42:46.450 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Before the good counsel proceeds, Your Honor, I would move to strike the statement erroneous. Again, that would be a conclusion of law and totally out of order. It's up to the Honorable Court to decide whether the opinion of Attorney Cabrera is acceptable or not. And it's not in our place, whether I'm for the prosecution or for the defense, to make such irresponsible statements. I move to strike, Your Honor. 07:42:46.670 --> 07:43:04.830 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Well, I object. I object to that motion, Your Honor. In fact, it came from the gentleman himself. The witness gave an opinion that itself is proof that the witness only gave conclusions and not facts, Your Honor. Anyway, Your Honor. I 07:43:04.830 --> 07:43:05.050 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: think 07:43:05.050 --> 07:43:05.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If she'll 07:43:05.270 --> 07:43:06.330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: allow the court to rule. 07:43:06.530 --> 07:43:07.190 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. 07:43:07.290 --> 07:43:25.370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Allow the court to rule. Let it remain in the record. Honorable Chel, that is how the prosecution clearly disagrees with the opinion of the expert from their point of view. She described it from their perspective and not necessarily the perspective of the court nor the prosecution. 07:43:25.790 --> 07:43:26.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 07:43:26.270 --> 07:43:31.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it is not per se strikeable from the point of view of the court. 07:43:32.330 --> 07:43:35.530 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: May I make a counter manifestation, Your Honor? 07:43:35.670 --> 07:43:37.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Honorable Diokno. 07:43:37.230 --> 07:43:50.440 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: That in the view of the prosecution, the statement of the defense that the opinion is erroneous is totally out of place and has no meaning in this court. Thank you. 07:43:50.880 --> 07:43:53.080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is noted. Attorney Sheila, you may proceed. 07:43:53.400 --> 07:45:12.530 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. We've heard over the last four or five hours of interpolations and interjections from the members, honorable members of this court, the term piercing of the corporate veil. We have here Kukan International Corporation versus Reyes, and I believe this is a matter of mandatory judicial notice for this court, where the court said, to disregard the separate juridical personality of a corporation, the wrongdoing must be established clearly and convincingly. cannot be presumed. Otherwise, an injustice that was never unintended may result from an erroneous application. And it bears reiterating that piercing the veil of corporate fiction is frowned upon. And these are the words of the Supreme Court in Kukan International Corporation v. Reyes so that we don't mislead the public na nanonood sa atin. Tutal, naglaan tayo ng napakahabang panahon at oras para pag-usapan ng mga korporasyon na ito ang opinion ng witness na binigyan ng mahigit limang oras para magbigay ng kanyang mga konklusyon at ng kanyang mga opinion. 07:45:14.750 --> 07:46:19.820 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Mas maganda na maunawaan at malaman ng ating mga kababayan kung ano ba ang sabi ng Korte Suprema dito. Ito ang sabi ng Korte Suprema. "It cannot be presumed. To disregard the separate juridical personality of a corporation, the wrongdoing must be established clearly and convincingly." Again. "It cannot be presumed." Now, that witness has answered over time and repeatedly that, unang-una sa lahat, wala siyang sapat na oras. Pangalawa, hindi niya hawak ang lahat ng dokumento to form sufficient basis or ng kompletong opinion. Kaya hindi ko alam kung saan nanggaling ang kanyang mga opinion na ipinalaganap niya buong maghapon sa bulwagang ito at sa harap ng sambayang Pilipino. Anyway, your honor, that's my first manifestation. Of course, I presume that the prosecution has a comment to my manifestation. 07:46:19.820 --> 07:46:20.140 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, 07:46:20.140 --> 07:46:21.960 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: if I may be heard, if your honor, please. 07:46:22.300 --> 07:46:22.320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I 07:46:22.320 --> 07:46:24.200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: was hoping otherwise, but I doubt that. 07:46:24.480 --> 07:46:25.000 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Sorry, 07:46:25.040 --> 07:46:25.160 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: your honor. 07:46:25.160 --> 07:46:25.460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honorable 07:46:25.460 --> 07:46:26.520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Diokno is recognized. 07:46:27.060 --> 07:48:04.880 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: I believe these statements by the defense counsel are really out of place. That's meant for a closing argument, perhaps, but not for this time. before this court. And again, if I may bring to the attention of the court other Supreme Court decisions which I believe hold otherwise compared to what the good counsel has been trying to push before this honorable court. Rodrigo Villanueva v. People, GR No. 218652, Feb. 23, 2022. Piercing of corporate veil is allowed if juridical entities are used as vehicles. to commit illegal acts. I quote, Since accused Villanueva used said companies as means or vehicles for the circumvention of statutes, in this case governing procurement of government supplies, etc., such acts should not be countenanced and the court pierced the corporate veil. You have another case, Concept Builders v. NLRC, GR No. 108-734, 29 May 1996. Again, to the same effect. And there's another case, if your honor please, Toledo Construction Corporation Employees Association versus Toledo Construction Corporation where the court said that although mere ownership by a single stockholder or by another corporation is not of itself sufficient ground for disregarding the separate corporate personality, this can be disregarded if it is shown that the corporation is used in a fraudulent scheme. 07:48:06.570 --> 07:49:39.760 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Your Honor, I think I need to respond to that manifestation just so we do not mislead the public again with respect to these points of law, Your Honor. I think with the points or the portions of the decisions stated by or mentioned by the gentleman in response to what I had stated earlier are actually Not inconsistent with the principle of law that I had stated earlier. Again, I will repeat. To disregard the separate juridical personality of a corporation, the wrongdoing must be established clearly and convincingly. It cannot be presumed. Now, the first case that was recited by the gentleman stated that since the accused committed etc. etc. actually supports The decision that I just cited. It means that if there was already a finding by the court that the accused had indeed committed certain things then the same had already gone through trial which also supports that the presumption had been or that the wrongdoing cannot be presumed your honor and therefore must be proved. And the second and third cases that he had cited which according to him also are of the same point, actually are not inconsistent with this principle, Your Honor. It cannot 07:49:39.760 --> 07:49:41.040 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: be presumed. The 07:49:41.040 --> 07:49:46.100 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: wrongdoing cannot be presumed. It has to be clearly and convincingly established. 07:49:47.220 --> 07:49:48.680 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Just one sentence. 07:49:50.600 --> 07:49:55.260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's finish this, Honorable Diokno, with your indulgence. The court instructed, 07:49:56.080 --> 07:50:43.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The presiding officers instructed the clerk of court to take note of the cases cited by both parties. We shall reproduce the same and furnish all the senator judges through their official emails with a copy of the three cases mentioned by the Honorable Diokno and the case cited by Attorney Sheila for their information and reference. As you stated, as Attorney Sheila stated, This is a decision of the court and the court can take judicial notice of it since any arguments, further arguments from the counsels on this matter. Let the senator judges evaluate them on its face and based on their reading and appreciation of the actual cases cited by both parties. Move on to your next manifestation, Atty. Sheila, please. 07:50:43.840 --> 07:50:48.660 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Your Honor, before we get to the second manifestation, may I just make a brief statement? I think it should be clear in the record. 07:50:48.660 --> 07:50:49.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You said one sentence, okay. 07:50:49.980 --> 07:50:50.460 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Yes, Your 07:50:50.460 --> 07:51:21.600 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Honor. Insofar as clear and convincing evidence is concerned, assuming that good counsel is correct, ano pa po ba ang clear and convincing kundi yung naipakita natin kanina that 69% of one of the companies was undeclared and unreported income and 51% of the other company, Metro City Crown, was also undeclared and unreported. So, what kind of clear and convincing evidence do we need if that is not yet clear and convincing in itself? 07:51:21.960 --> 07:51:25.220 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Oh, forgive me, Your Honor. I thought the gentleman had actually... 07:51:25.220 --> 07:51:25.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's exactly my 07:51:25.880 --> 07:51:31.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: problem, Honorable Diokno. This will not stop. Atty. Sheila, let that be the last statement on this matter. 07:51:31.240 --> 07:51:45.400 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: I'm sorry, Your Honor, but this involves the right of the respondent because, forgive me, I just heard just a few minutes ago that the gentleman said that this is not yet the time for any closing statement, Your Honor. And he 07:51:45.400 --> 07:51:46.000 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: may 07:51:46.000 --> 07:51:56.300 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: have forgotten that the respondent has not yet even began presenting its evidence, Your Honor. So, to conclude or to make that conclusion, that's out of order. 07:51:57.420 --> 07:52:19.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Well, to be fair, let that remain in the record too. And he was given a better opportunity earlier actually through an interjection of a senator judge which he did not take advantage of. Let that remain in the record as well for whatever it's worth. Again, let that be the last statement on this matter on piercing the corporate veil. Your next manifestation, attorney Sheila. 07:52:19.240 --> 07:52:19.520 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, 07:52:19.540 --> 07:53:31.300 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: your honor. Again, good afternoon. I heard the presiding officer mentioned earlier that there will still be a setting tomorrow for some administrative matters. However, it's only 547 and it has been repeated over and over again by the prosecution that they would want to streamline the proceeding and achieve speed. In this case, we're here, the prosecution. Both the prosecution and the respondent are here and I think the only remaining administrative matter on the part of the prosecution without of course encroaching in their prerogative is that since they had already Withdraw Article 3 and had manifested yesterday that this witness is already their last witness, then the next would be the formal offer which I think this court can settle today and give the parties time to file their respective pleadings thereon so that we also save time and both the prosecution and the respondent would no longer be required to return here for administrative matters. 07:53:31.300 --> 07:54:22.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Actually, it's more for the court, Attorney Sheila. I would have to beg the indulgence of the parties. It's more for the court because we are finalizing some administrative matters that we are not yet sure about regarding the order the court will issue especially with respect to confidential documents that will be made part of the formal offer that we will require the counsel for the panel of prosecutors to submit. We are in the middle of hopefully we'll be able to iron it out tonight. We haven't had time given the successive trials for the whole day to be able to come up with a rational order on how to deal with the confidentiality of the documents and at the same time be able to be transparent with respect to the court's proceedings. 07:54:24.730 --> 07:54:47.550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So it's more for the court, really, so that tomorrow we would be able to give sequential rulings and orders that would have to be made and take effect after the respondent rests. But most likely, it'll be for half a day and I don't think you need a full complement tomorrow. In fact, we might... 07:54:50.250 --> 07:55:18.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We might just suspend today's trial for tomorrow given that it will be purely procedural matters although I hope I will be joined by my colleagues nevertheless for tomorrow's trial. So it's more for the court, Attorney Sheila. That's why as I said, we're taking it in advisement while we iron out some details to address those issues. Yes, Senator Judge Lacson. 07:55:19.820 --> 07:55:26.920 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Since we are anticipating, sir, na half day lang tayo, baka pwedeng after lunch na tayo mag-resume tomorrow? Pwede rin naman. 07:55:27.980 --> 07:55:29.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pwede rin. 07:55:29.620 --> 07:55:31.760 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: No objection, Your Honor. 07:55:31.760 --> 07:55:32.240 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Or 07:55:32.240 --> 07:55:34.400 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: we can do 8.30 a.m. tomorrow. 07:55:39.900 --> 07:55:43.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Sotto is recognized. 07:55:43.640 --> 07:55:44.020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah! 07:55:47.660 --> 07:55:48.440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ... 07:56:05.800 --> 07:56:07.100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Sotto? 07:56:07.800 --> 07:56:12.820 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Parang hindi naman kagulo. I move that we suspend until 1 p.m. tomorrow. 07:56:15.590 --> 07:56:36.460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: There is a motion to suspend until 1 p.m. tomorrow but with the indulgence of Senator Sotto. Attorney Sheila, do you have... Other manifestations or do you want, can the manifestations be delivered tomorrow? Do you want to deliver them today before we suspend and act on the motion of Senator Judge Sotto? 07:56:36.640 --> 07:56:38.040 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: I can do the rest tomorrow, Your Honor. 07:56:38.280 --> 07:56:40.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You can do the rest tomorrow? At 1pm? 07:56:41.160 --> 07:56:41.640 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, 07:56:41.660 --> 07:56:42.100 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: at 1pm. 07:56:42.640 --> 07:56:43.040 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: I 07:56:43.040 --> 07:56:49.360 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: also have some manifestations regarding exhibit markings but I can do that tomorrow as well. 07:56:49.860 --> 07:57:00.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, then we're agreed. Acting on the motion of Senator Judge Sotto, the trial is suspended. Until tomorrow, 1pm.