# October 12, 2026 Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Duterte Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z6d3pm6cjs Status: Reviewed working draft, revision 2 **[00:04:02.900] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Officer and Central Judges of the Impeachment **[00:04:05.120] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Court. **[00:04:48.250] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The Sergeant at Arms is directed to make a proclamation. **[00:04:51.980] Senate Sergeant-at-Arms** All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the Impeachment Court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. **[00:05:02.340] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator Judge Mark Villar. **[00:05:14.320] Sen. Mark A. Villar** Let us put ourselves in the presence of God. Almighty Father, we humbly stand before you today as we resume trial in this impeachment court. We beseech you to bless and inspire us so that all we think, say, and do aligns with your will. In times of adversity, we ask that you renew our spirit, keep our focus steady, and grant us the physical, emotional, and spiritual strength required for the magnitude of our responsibilities. We lean fully upon your grace to sustain us. Fill our hearts with wisdom, discernment, and integrity. Lighten our minds with clarity to carefully weigh the evidence before us, stripping away all confusions. We may examine every testimony and record the objective fairness, distinguishing truth from speculation. Shield us from the traps of personal bias, political variance, or divisiveness that could cloud our judgment, and grant us the grace to put the justice **[00:06:03.690] Sen. Mark A. Villar** before gain, the plight of the Filipinos before our own, and truth above all. **[00:06:08.490] Sen. Mark A. Villar** Fill our hearts with wisdom and understanding in all our judgments that we may be effective channels of truth and justice. Grant us the grace of true independence, giving us courage to stand firm in what is right against political pressures and outside influences, remaining faithful to our solemn oath to the Constitution and the people we serve. Give us humility to seek your will, the truth that may be fully revealed under your light as we take our final steps. Continue to guide us so that peace and accountability may prevail. May our concluding judgment be rooted entirely in fairness, integrity, and righteousness for the fulfillment of your greater glory. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. **[00:06:43.470] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Trial suspended. **[00:14:08.240] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The Clerk of Court will now call the roll. **[00:14:11.920] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Roll call of members. The Honorable Senator Judge Aquino. Senator Judge Cayetano Alan. Senator Judge Cayetano Pia. Senator Judge Dela Rosa. Senator Judge Ejercito. **[00:14:25.100] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Senator Judge Estrada Senator Judge Go Senator Judge Hontiveros Senator Judge Lacson Senator Judge Lapid Senator Judge Legarda Senator Judge Marcoleta Senator Judge Marcos Senator Judge Padilla Senator Judge Pangilinan Senator Judge Sotto III Senator Judge Tulfo Erwin Senator Judge Tulfo Raffy Senator Judge Villanueva Senator Judge Villar Camille Senator Judge Villar Mark, Senator Judge Zubiri, the Presiding Officer Senator Judge Escudero, the Senate President Senator Judge Gatchalian. **[00:15:03.540] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** With 13 Senator Judges present, the Chair declares the presence of a courtroom. **[00:15:09.920] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** In accordance with the Rules of Procedure on Impeachment Trials, the Chair now recognizes the newly elected Presiding Officer to preside over the proceedings of the Impeachment Court. **[00:15:20.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Mr. Senate President. If there are no objections, we shall dispense with the reading of the journal. for October 7 to 8 and October 9. That is journal number 35 and journal number 36 of the Senate, sitting as an impeachment court and shall consider the same as approved. **[00:15:42.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The clerk will please call the case before the impeachment court. **[00:15:46.570] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Case number 004-2026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. **[00:15:54.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Appearances of the parties. **[00:15:57.160] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Good morning, Your **[00:15:58.000] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Honor. Same appearances. We're ready. for the prosecution. **[00:16:01.330] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Same appearance for the respondent. Accused, your honor. **[00:16:04.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The clerk of court is directed to situate the witness, attorney Alex Cabrera, to the witness stand for **[00:16:17.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the continuation of his testimony, specifically the cross-examination by counsel for respondent. **[00:16:27.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Kristine, your apple box is there already. **[00:16:30.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, your honor. Thank you, your honor. **[00:16:36.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Good morning, your honor. **[00:16:37.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Good morning, Honorable Chel. **[00:16:42.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly take **[00:16:42.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** your seat. **[00:16:44.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Cabrera, naunawaan niyo po na patuloy kayong magbibigay ng inyong testimonya sa hukumang ito, sang-ayon at base sa pinanumpaan po ninyo nung huli kayong tumistigo dito noong nakaraang biyernes. **[00:16:59.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. **[00:17:04.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kristine, are you ready? **[00:17:06.240] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Ready, Your Honor. **[00:17:07.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You may proceed with your cross-examination then. **[00:17:14.230] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You can drink your water. First, sir. It's okay. **[00:17:32.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Are you good, sir? **[00:17:34.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Thank **[00:17:34.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** you. **[00:17:36.240] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Good morning, Atty. Cabrera. **[00:17:39.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Good morning, Honorable Kristine. **[00:17:42.320] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Just don't call me honorable because I'm not an honorable. I'm not part of the prosecution team. **[00:17:51.790] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, I hope you had a great weekend. Now, you are here to testify as a forensic accountant of the prosecution, correct? **[00:18:02.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right. **[00:18:03.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And your testimony is to prove the allegation of unexplained wealth against the Vice President, Sara Zimmerman Duterte, under Article 2 of the Articles of Impeachment, correct? **[00:18:18.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right. **[00:18:19.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And sir, aside from professional competence, all CPAs are bound by integrity and objectivity in conducting their forensic audit. Do you agree with that, sir? **[00:18:34.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:18:35.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, we have **[00:18:40.670] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** a copy of your CV and your CV shows that you are the chairman of the Justice Reform Initiative or JIR. Do you confirm that, sir? **[00:18:53.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes, ma'am. **[00:18:54.450] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[00:18:54.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** as the chairman of JRI, is it fair to state that you have knowledge of the statements released by your organization? **[00:19:03.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Of course, **[00:19:04.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ma'am. **[00:19:04.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:19:04.810] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. Are you aware that your organization, the JRI, issued a statement on May 14, 2026, calling that the impeachment court convene and proceed with the impeachment trial of the Vice President, Sara Duterte? Are you aware of that, sir? **[00:19:23.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes, ma'am. **[00:19:23.640] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** We are showing you a copy of that statement and we are also showing that statement on screen. **[00:19:36.000] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Do you confirm now, sir, that that is the statement that was issued by JRI? **[00:19:40.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is correct. **[00:19:41.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:19:41.320] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. **[00:19:43.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your CV also shows that you are the chairman of the Integrity Initiative Inc., correct? **[00:19:52.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right, ma'am. It was still an active organization. **[00:19:55.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. **[00:19:56.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I was the last chairman. **[00:19:57.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. **[00:19:59.590] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And as the chairman, you are aware that it was organized in 2009 by five leading business organizations, and one of which is the Makati Business Club, correct? **[00:20:11.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right. **[00:20:12.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. **[00:20:12.830] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Your Honor, I'm very sorry to interrupt. May I just request a copy of the document that was shown to the witness? Thank you. **[00:20:20.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Assisting counsel is directed to furnish a copy to opposing counsel through assisting counsel as well. **[00:20:26.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Through the back of the witness preferably. **[00:20:28.750] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** A copy of **[00:20:29.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** the documents that we have shown to the witness are being provided to the prosecution, Your Honor. **[00:20:35.270] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** So I will not interrupt later, Your Honor, if other documents will be shown to the witness. May I request that we immediately be given copies as well. Thank you. **[00:20:45.250] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** The other documents are already part of the examination or the direct examination of Mr. Cabrera, Attorney Diokno. Don't worry. **[00:20:56.840] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Are you aware sir that the Makati Business Club issued a statement on June 9, 2025 calling for the convening of the impeachment court? **[00:21:09.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I'm aware po. **[00:21:10.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And we are showing you a copy of the statement and we are also showing a copy on screen. **[00:21:26.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Council is being shown a copy of the statement. **[00:21:30.330] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Do you confirm that that is the statement that was issued by the Makati Business Club, sir, on June 9, 2025? **[00:21:38.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I'm aware po of the call for convening the impeachment court, but I do not have the time po to read the rest of the statement to confirm that this is such statement. **[00:21:46.950] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. That will suffice. Now, you also listed chairmanship in the Ethics Committee of the Management Association of the Philippines, or MAP, correct? **[00:21:57.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right, po. **[00:21:58.820] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You're of course aware that on June 11, 2025, the MAP voiced out its concern over the move to return VP Sara's impeachment case to the House of Representatives. Are you aware of that statement? **[00:22:13.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I am aware po. **[00:22:14.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** We **[00:22:14.920] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** are showing you a copy of the statement. **[00:22:18.050] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And the statement is also being shown on screen. **[00:22:24.530] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Do you confirm that that was the statement that was issued by the MAP on June 11, 2025, sir? **[00:22:31.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Again, I am aware of the statement, but I don't have time to read to confirm that this is the **[00:22:36.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** entire statement. **[00:22:36.930] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, that would suffice, sir. But still, at that time, you are the chairman of the Ethics Committee of the Management Association of the Philippines. Thank you, sir. Now, despite of all of these publications which were released by your organizations, you still accepted your appointment? **[00:22:54.670] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** by the public prosecutors for you to render forensic accounting services on the supposed unexplained wealth of the Vice President, Sara Zimmerman Duterte. Correct? **[00:23:06.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:23:07.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. **[00:23:09.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** With the indulgence of Attorney Kristine, can the tech kindly adjust the cursor on the screen? It's right at the forehead of Attorney Kristine. Okay. Thank you. You may proceed, Attorney Kristine. **[00:23:22.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, Your Honor. Now, sir, let's go to your appointment by the panel of prosecutors. Last Friday, we were provided with your appointment letter by the panel of the prosecutors. We will show the letter on screen, but we have covered your signature, sir, both your signature and Attorney Luistra's signature. **[00:23:45.760] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Just a clarification for the record, Your Honor. As I recall, it was the witness who produced a copy of the engagement letter. The prosecution panel did not provide it to him. **[00:23:57.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But it was part of the testimony of the witness. **[00:24:01.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Kindly show a copy of the letter to the witness. **[00:24:12.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, do you confirm that that is your appointment letter by the public prosecutors? **[00:24:16.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I confirm po. **[00:24:16.610] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. **[00:24:18.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, that letter is undated. Do you confirm that, sir? **[00:24:26.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** June 2026 po. Wala pong naisulat na. **[00:24:29.250] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. On the second paragraph, on the second paragraph of that letter, **[00:24:37.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** kindly **[00:24:38.240] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** zoom. **[00:24:41.390] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** The second paragraph. **[00:24:44.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. I think that's enough. On the second paragraph, there seemed to have a planned vacation to Europe for two to three weeks and that will start tomorrow, sir. Is that right? Do you confirm that? **[00:25:02.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I confirm po. **[00:25:04.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. My question is quite personal. Have you packed your bag, sir? **[00:25:10.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kalahat. I'm a **[00:25:11.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** late packer po eh. **[00:25:12.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. What time will be your flight tomorrow, sir? **[00:25:15.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** It's not tomorrow. It's on Wednesday. **[00:25:17.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** It's on Wednesday. Okay. Okay. So this is not accurate, this letter. The date is on Wednesday and not yet tomorrow. Okay, sir. **[00:25:28.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Based on this document, sir, it was the panel of prosecutors who approached you to be their forensic expert. Is that correct? **[00:25:36.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is correct. The prosecutors po. **[00:25:40.060] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:25:40.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. And who among the members of the panel of prosecutors approached you, sir, if you can recall? **[00:25:45.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yeah, it is Congressman Shell Diokno. **[00:25:47.920] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Congressman Shell Diokno. And you have known Congressman Shell Diokno before by reason of your appearances in public hearings. Is that a correct statement? **[00:25:59.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** No po. The first time I met Congressman Shell Diokno, I mean face-to-face, We sat on a panel together in the Good Governance Advocates of the Philippines. **[00:26:15.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And that was way back in? **[00:26:17.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That was not way back po. That was last **[00:26:21.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** year **[00:26:23.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** lang po yata. **[00:26:24.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, so that's last year. Sir, the engagement provides that your engagement is pro bono. The letter provides that. **[00:26:38.950] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** When was this letter handed to you, sir, if you can recall? **[00:26:42.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** This engagement letter? **[00:26:43.830] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[00:26:44.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. **[00:26:44.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Noon June po. **[00:26:45.390] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Also in June 2026. Now, do you recall a specific date in June when the letter was handed to you, sir? **[00:26:53.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Early **[00:26:54.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** June po eh. **[00:26:56.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Early June? **[00:26:57.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Early **[00:26:57.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** June. **[00:26:58.150] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[00:26:58.690] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** first week or second week? **[00:27:01.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yeah, thereabouts po. Thereabouts. **[00:27:02.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Mga first week **[00:27:03.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Alright, **[00:27:03.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. And... The engagement letter does not outline the procedures to be undertaken by you. Do you confirm that, sir? **[00:27:12.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yeah, **[00:27:12.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I confirm po. **[00:27:14.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Did you send another letter, sir, confirming the procedures? Procedures? **[00:27:18.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[00:27:19.440] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. **[00:27:20.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po kong sinend na ito po lahat yung gagawin ko. Pero ang kasunduan po namin ay magkakanda ka po ng forensic report doon sa documents na ibibigay nila. **[00:27:29.820] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you for that answer. So you confirm that this is the only letter that covers the engagement of your services, **[00:27:38.140] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** correct? **[00:27:38.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is true po. **[00:27:39.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Now, the appointment letter also says that you may be assisted by such persons that you select. Do you confirm that, sir? **[00:27:47.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I confirm po. **[00:27:48.000] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And how many people have assisted you in drafting and finalizing your forensic report, sir? **[00:27:56.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Noong first half po, mga dalawa lang. Pero nung second ha po Nel, na-delay po yung pagdating ng mga bank accounts. Nagdagdag po kami ng ako ng tatlo. **[00:28:06.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. Now, all of these people are also rendering their service as pro bono. **[00:28:13.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[00:28:14.640] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Meaning for free. **[00:28:15.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[00:28:15.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:28:16.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. Last Friday, you testified on the results of your assessment on the alleged unexplained wealth of the Vice President and her spouse, Manases Carpio, correct? **[00:28:29.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:28:30.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And this allegation is found in Article 2 of the Articles of Impeachment, correct? **[00:28:37.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Allegation po of? **[00:28:39.140] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Under Article 2 of the Articles of Impeachment, sir. Okay, thank you, sir. In fact, your forensic report, if you have a copy, sir, you can refer to it. Your forensic report dated October 2, 2026. Can a copy be shown, please? We are showing a copy to the witness. **[00:29:04.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Concluded that the respondent, vice president, had an unexplained wealth of 817.8 million pesos. **[00:29:18.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:29:19.570] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That is your allegation in your forensic report. **[00:29:22.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is the results of my review po. Yung allegations po ay wala pong basihan ng ibig sabihin. **[00:29:28.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Okay. We'll accept your answer, sir. Now, on page 39, you concluded that the Vice President committed constitutional violations year on year by reason of her supposed unexplained wealth. Correct? **[00:29:44.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:29:45.130] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:29:45.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. Now, your report covers the year 2022 to 2025, correct? **[00:29:51.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:29:52.470] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:29:52.690] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. And that is during the respondent's tenure as a vice president. **[00:29:56.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is right **[00:29:57.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[00:29:57.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That no longer covers the prior years from 2007 to 2021, correct? **[00:30:03.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** The unexplained wealth that **[00:30:05.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** we covered **[00:30:05.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** is **[00:30:06.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** for **[00:30:06.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** the period 22 to 25. **[00:30:08.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:30:08.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. And apart from the Constitution, sir, you also cited the following laws which were allegedly violated by the respondent in page 39 of your report. With your kind indulgence, sir, we will go through these laws one by one. Now, You cited RA 1379. **[00:30:35.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede pong i-correct yung pagkakasabi niyo po. Were violated or may have been violated. **[00:30:40.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you sir for that. Were violated or may have been violated. Now, these laws include, first, RA 1379. And if you recall sir, based on your recollection, This governs the civil forfeiture of any property unlawfully acquired by a public officer, correct? **[00:31:01.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** APA. **[00:31:02.420] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** RA 6713 is also known as the Code of Conduct and Ethical Standards for Public Officers and Employees, correct? **[00:31:10.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** APA. **[00:31:10.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** RA 3019 is of course the Anti-Graft and Corrupt Practices Act, right? **[00:31:16.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** APA. **[00:31:17.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And RA 12009 is the New Government Procurement Act. Correct? **[00:31:23.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right, Pa. **[00:31:24.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir, for that confirmation. Now, your report also cited the omnibus rules on statement of assets and liabilities and net worth, correct? **[00:31:34.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[00:31:34.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** If you can recall, which, if you can recall also, the Civil Service Commission adopted through CSE Resolution No. 250063 dated June 25, 2025. If you can just recall it, sir. **[00:31:53.880] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And that **[00:31:55.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** was in footnote 3 of **[00:31:56.880] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** your report. And **[00:31:58.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** that omnibus SALN rules took effect on September 29, 2025, correct? **[00:32:05.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Okay. **[00:32:07.050] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. Now, just some personal questions, sir, if you don't mind. You testified last Friday that you were with Isla Lipan and Company or formerly Joaquin Cananan, sir? **[00:32:20.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** From **[00:32:20.610] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** 1988. until you retired in 2025. Correct, sir? **[00:32:26.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's correct po. **[00:32:27.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You have not been employed in the government, sir. Correct? **[00:32:30.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not yet po. **[00:32:31.460] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. And you have not been appointed to any public position? **[00:32:35.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is right po. **[00:32:36.380] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Either. **[00:32:36.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Okay, **[00:32:37.320] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. **[00:32:41.980] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You have not been employed with the Civil Service Commission, correct? **[00:32:45.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not **[00:32:45.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yet po. **[00:32:46.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[00:32:46.640] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. How about the Office of the Ombudsman? **[00:32:49.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi pa po. **[00:32:50.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, and also COA? **[00:32:52.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pa po. **[00:32:52.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, thank you, sir. Not having employed with the government, sir, with all due respect also, you have not executed and filed a SALN with the office of the Ombudsman, correct? **[00:33:04.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, tama po yan. **[00:33:05.590] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. Even if such is the case, you still opine that the VP committed violations in the declaration she made in her SALN. Is that right, sir? Even without having been employed with the government, not having executed any SALN, you still opine that the VP, committed violations in the declarations she made in the year SALN. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go back to your employment with Isla Lipana, sir. **[00:33:37.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** By **[00:33:38.140] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** the way, Isla Lipana changed its name or firm name, Joaquin Cunanan, rather, changed its firm name to Isla Lipana in 2005. That is correct? Okay, thank you, sir. Now, you started as a... staff accountant, at Joaquin Cunanan and Company, correct? **[00:33:57.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[00:33:57.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** On July 7, 1988, correct? **[00:34:00.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right, Pa. **[00:34:01.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. If you can just share, may I know the name of your partner in charge at that time, sir? If that's okay for you to share. If not, it's okay. **[00:34:11.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. Huwag na po nating banggitin po yung pangalan ng partner. Okay. Tutal po, Yumao na po **[00:34:17.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** siya. **[00:34:18.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. That's okay, sir. And... Your work as a staff accountant was to conduct an external audit of financial statements of your clients in Joaquin Cunanan, correct? **[00:34:30.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:34:31.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In **[00:34:31.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** short, you are a staff auditor, correct? **[00:34:33.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:34:34.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In the modern version or in the later structure of PWC or Isla Lipana, this staff accountant is what we call as an associate in the audit and assurance department. **[00:34:49.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:34:50.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:34:50.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. In fact, the current... Okay, I will no longer mention his name. I was about to mention the name of the current audit and assurance managing partner of Isla Lipana. Now, going back to your work experience, sir, you served as a staff accountant from July 7, 1988 to June 30, 1989, correct? **[00:35:14.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right, po. **[00:35:15.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And that is for about a year? **[00:35:17.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** One year, po. **[00:35:19.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir. Thereafter, you transferred to the tax services department of Joaquin Cunanan or Isla Lipana on June 1, 1989. **[00:35:28.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:35:29.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir. Because of that transfer, you became a tax technical consultant. That was your job description then. **[00:35:36.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:35:37.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir. And today, we call that tax technical consultant as a tax associate. Is that a correct attribution sir? **[00:35:45.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:35:45.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir. **[00:35:48.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** I will no longer ask the name of your tax partner in charge. **[00:35:52.660] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And your report to this new tax partner, sir. To this tax partner of yours. **[00:35:59.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[00:35:59.540] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. You no longer report to your previous audit and assurance partner in charge, correct? **[00:36:05.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. Pero... **[00:36:07.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Counselor Diokno or Attorney Diokno can ask you questions later, sir, regarding this matter if she has to. Now, I understand. that East Lalipana has a department also called Brother Assurance Services. Is that correct, sir? **[00:36:25.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:36:25.930] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[00:36:26.190] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** it offers fraud and compliance audit, correct? **[00:36:29.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right **[00:36:29.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[00:36:30.050] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In fact, this department of East Lalipana is currently headed by Mr. Pocholo Dumundon. Is that correct? **[00:36:38.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po alam kung siya po yung leader ngayon. **[00:36:40.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, going back to your resume, sir. The same does not mention that you were part of the broader assurance services, is that correct? **[00:36:50.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** It **[00:36:50.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** doesn't mention that po. Okay, **[00:36:51.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. Also, it did not, while, although, it did mention your chairmanship in Isla Lipana. Now, let's go to your work in the tax department, sir. **[00:37:06.570] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, the tax department is a separate division of Isla Lipana, correct? **[00:37:12.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Separate LOS, but not siloed. **[00:37:14.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. It's a separate department of Joaquin Cunanan and Company. **[00:37:19.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes, it doesn't **[00:37:20.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** operate independently of the firm. **[00:37:23.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. **[00:37:23.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** It's not **[00:37:24.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** siloed. **[00:37:24.750] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. But it is still under Isla Lipana, although a separate department. **[00:37:31.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron pong separate na LOS po ang tax. Opo. **[00:37:33.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:37:35.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** It is also separate. It is separate from the Audit and Assurance Services Department, sir. Correct? **[00:37:41.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:37:42.210] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:37:42.450] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. It is also separate from the broader assurance department, correct? **[00:37:46.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:37:47.690] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. Now, the tax department under which you were already working at the time, in 1989, offers the following services. Tax accounting and regulatory compliance. Do you confirm that? **[00:38:00.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:38:01.230] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Such as assistance in the preparation and filing of tax returns. **[00:38:06.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Tax audit or due diligence, sir? **[00:38:10.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:38:10.870] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But the audit, The determination refers to the determination or tax compliance of a client with the BAR, correct? **[00:38:21.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po ganun ka-restrictive po yan. **[00:38:23.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, but mostly that is the coverage of your tax audit. **[00:38:27.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasama **[00:38:27.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po ang rules at hindi po natin yung matitignan na hindi po inaanalyze ang financial statements po. **[00:38:32.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Yes. I get that, sir. Now, international tax and transfer pricing and also rendering of tax opinion, sir. **[00:38:42.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes po. **[00:38:43.230] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. The tax department under which you were working at that time does not offer auditing and assurance services, correct? **[00:38:52.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** The **[00:38:52.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** tax department does not audit... **[00:38:54.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Does not offer auditing and assurance services. **[00:38:57.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[00:38:57.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Meron pong separate na department po yan. **[00:39:00.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So the answer is yes, it does not offer auditing and assurance services. **[00:39:04.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[00:39:05.110] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. The tax department does not conduct an external audit of the financial statements of... The clients of PWC or Isla Lipana or Joaquin Cunanan. Thank you, sir. Its services do not include rendering an independent opinion on the financial statements of your clients. Correct? Thank you, sir. While the tax department offers tax fraud audits, the focus of the audit is compliance with tax laws. **[00:39:36.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Compliance with tax laws and kung ano po yung misrepresentation po sa financial statement po. **[00:39:42.840] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** All of these relate to tax laws also. **[00:39:44.880] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:39:45.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. Now, because fraud audit in general is being handled by the assurance department, correct, sir? **[00:39:52.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Fraud **[00:39:53.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** audit in general? **[00:39:54.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. **[00:39:56.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pagka po fraud audit po kasi yung pinag-uusapan, na-involved na po yung lahat po ng LOS po ng firm. **[00:40:02.530] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Ang **[00:40:02.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** audit po, ang tax po, ang broader assurance, at kung sino man po yung expert na kailangan po, nagtutulong-tulong po kami. Yan po ang ibig sabihin ng hindi po siya siloed. **[00:40:13.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you for that clarification. Now, while working in Joaquin Cunanan's tax department, you took up law, correct? **[00:40:20.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:40:21.750] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And lawyering is also consistent with your career track under the tax services department of Joaquin Cunanan? **[00:40:27.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is right po. **[00:40:28.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[00:40:29.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** after passing the bar in 1996, you maintained your employment with Joaquin Cunanan, correct? **[00:40:35.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 1994 po ako **[00:40:36.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** nakapasa ng bar. **[00:40:36.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sorry, I stand corrected. 1994, sir. **[00:40:39.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[00:40:40.540] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** after passing the bar in that year, you maintained your employment with Joaquin Cunanan, correct? As a tax lawyer in the tax services department, of course. **[00:40:53.230] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So you were employed? as an attorney in the tax services department of Joaquin Cunanan and Company. **[00:41:01.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** As a CPA and lawyer po. **[00:41:02.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Of course, sir. You were not employed as an auditor of the audit and assurance department of Joaquin Cunanan and Company. **[00:41:10.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po ako auditor sa LOS na yun po. **[00:41:13.390] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. As a tax lawyer in the tax department, your work was focused on taxation, corporate law, mergers and acquisitions, correct? **[00:41:22.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[00:41:23.130] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:41:24.110] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And... As a tax lawyer, you can now represent clients before the SEC, correct? **[00:41:30.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nagre-represent po kami sa SEC po. **[00:41:32.420] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. More importantly, as a tax lawyer, you can now represent clients before the BIR, correct? **[00:41:39.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Oo **[00:41:39.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Kahit punong CPA pa lang po, pwede na po mag-represent sa BIR po. **[00:41:43.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. And, am I correct to say that as a tax lawyer, your work mostly involved? Representing clients before the SEC and the BIR and other government agencies. **[00:41:57.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** As a **[00:41:58.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** tax lawyer. **[00:41:59.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po eh. Hindi po. Talaga pong ano. Talaga pong malaki po yung M&A component. Malaki po yung due diligence review. Malaki po yung consulting. **[00:42:10.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Just answer yes or no, sir. Sorry. I have to. **[00:42:13.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** No, Your Honor, please. It's **[00:42:14.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** not po. It's **[00:42:14.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** not po na. Puro **[00:42:16.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ganun po ang ginagawa ko. **[00:42:17.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. I understand. Your **[00:42:18.920] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Honor, I'm sorry to interrupt. May I just request that since the good counsel was the one who asked the question of the witness, that she not interrupt him and allow him to finish the question, to the answer I mean. **[00:42:31.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, if I will ask you, if I will request you to just answer with yes or no, can you please answer with yes or no? And your lawyer will also ask a question regarding that matter if he deems appropriate later on redirect. **[00:42:48.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The comment of Honorable Diokno is duly noted. The witness is instructed to kindly be responsive. As the case may be, although if there is a need for you to explain your answer, if it cannot be answerable by a simple yes or no, you may ask permission of the counsel if there is a need to ask further questions or if you can explain your answer. If not, then opposing counsel, the Honorable Diokno, can take that up and redirect. You may proceed, Atty. Kristine. **[00:43:16.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:43:16.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, Your Honor. Now, as a tax lawyer, you no longer audit the financial statements of PWC's clients. **[00:43:26.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** As a tax lawyer po? **[00:43:27.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes po. **[00:43:28.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[00:43:29.320] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. **[00:43:33.280] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Am I correct to say, sir, that under PWC's global policy and standards, the firm's tax department is strictly prohibited from providing external audit services to any of The firm's client. **[00:43:48.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, hindi po ganun ang design nun. Ang audit partners lamang po yung nakakapirma ng audit **[00:43:54.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** credentials. **[00:43:54.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:43:54.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. So, the answer to that is yes. Yes. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go back to your work **[00:44:02.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** as a tax lawyer. Let's expound a bit. Now, your work as a tax lawyer already involves handling requests before the BIR, correct? **[00:44:14.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasama po yun. **[00:44:16.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Law division? **[00:44:18.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasama po yun. **[00:44:20.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** International Tax Affairs Division. **[00:44:22.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasama **[00:44:22.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yun. **[00:44:23.210] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:44:23.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And you also represented clients for tax assessments or audits before the BIR. **[00:44:32.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:44:32.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. If I can recall your testimony last Friday, you said that you really considered yourself as a tax expert. Tama po? **[00:44:42.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[00:44:43.470] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And if I may recall, if I can quote you, you mentioned something along the lines like, And taxation, yan ang expertise ko talaga. **[00:44:51.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[00:44:51.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** this representation really understands where you're coming from, sir. In fact, that statement really showed your passion also when it comes to taxation, if my assessment is correct. **[00:45:06.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Taxation po, because of tax planning, tax structuring, M&A po. **[00:45:11.240] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. Now, even if you focus your entire career in taxation, **[00:45:15.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** and **[00:45:17.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Only devoted about a year in external audit as a staff accountant, you still consider yourself, sir, as a forensic accounting expert? **[00:45:25.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right, sir. **[00:45:26.420] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Objection, Your Honor. I think the... **[00:45:29.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Already answered, Your Honor. **[00:45:30.900] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Your Honor, already answered is not an excuse for the objection to be made. That's very clear, Section 39. **[00:45:38.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** What is the objection, counsel? **[00:45:40.990] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** May I ask that the question be repeated? **[00:45:44.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your Honor, the witness already answered, I believe. **[00:45:47.350] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Your Honor, Section 39, should the witness answer the question before the adverse party had the opportunity to voice fully its objection, or where the question is not objectionable but the answer is not responsive, or where a witness testifies without the question being posed, or testifies beyond limits set by the court, and such objection is found to be meritorious. The court shall sustain the objection and order such answer, testimony, or narration to be stricken off the record. **[00:46:17.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** That is why I'm asking for the ground for the objection, counsel. **[00:46:19.820] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** That's why, Your Honor, I'm asking that the question be repeated. Because if I recall the question, good counsel here misled the testimony or misdeclared the testimony of the witness last week. **[00:46:33.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Quick reply, Your Honor. So **[00:46:34.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** your ground is that it's misleading. **[00:46:37.550] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, but I would like, Your Honor, please, that the question be repeated so that I can make it clear which part is objectionable. **[00:46:45.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** A quick reply, Your Honor. **[00:46:46.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** We **[00:46:46.550] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** believe that the witness is an intelligent witness, Your Honor, and he fully understood and in fact responded to the question, Your Honor. Thank you. **[00:46:57.190] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Your Honor, may I be heard? Hindi po karera ito na pag sinagot ng witness agad yung tanong ay hindi na po pwede mag-object? ang abogado. That's very clear from section 39 of rule 130. If the witness answers quickly but the question is objectionable, counsel is still entitled to object. The court must rule on the objection and have the answer or the question stricken off the record. Now, to make my objection clear, I don't know why it's so difficult for counsel to repeat her question. **[00:47:28.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, counsel, but **[00:47:29.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Attorney Kristine, before the court makes a ruling. **[00:47:31.810] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your Honor, may we know the ground of the objection, Your Honor, because if it was misleading, the witness could not have answered it intelligently, Your Honor. But as you see, Your Honor, the witness has in fact given his answer, Your Honor. **[00:47:45.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Allow the court to make a ruling. **[00:47:49.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If the panel of prosecutor needs the question to be repeated to make the appropriate objection and the witness has already answered, then The court would have to overrule that objection and also if it is based on the fact that it was misleading, it was not misleading. I remember the question. She was simply comparing the claim of the witness in regard to his supposed one-year experience only in the division when he was starting out that focused on this particular fact. and or assertion. **[00:48:26.730] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** I now **[00:48:29.850] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** recall what was stated by the good counsel and she said that if you're only especially if if you only did tax lawyering sorry she was stating that she **[00:48:45.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** was **[00:48:45.870] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** insinuating your honor that this witness has not had any experience at all in auditing That was the import of her question and that's why it's misleading. **[00:48:56.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your Honor, please, that statement of Atty. Diokno is the one which is misleading. **[00:49:02.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, **[00:49:02.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I don't recall it that way, Honorable. I think Atty. Kristine asked that he had experience but that only it was for a short period of time, a year in fact, if I recall correctly. Let's move on. For the meantime, with your indulgence, Honorable Diokno, the objection is overruled. Atty. Kristine, you may continue. **[00:49:21.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. With your kind indulgence, sir, I will be asking more personal questions, sir. **[00:49:30.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** As a lawyer, sir, have you handled a complaint for graft and corruption before the Office of the Ombudsman? **[00:49:37.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po. **[00:49:37.680] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. Have you handled, either as a private prosecutor or defense lawyer, a case involving graft and corruption before any court? **[00:49:46.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** As a **[00:49:46.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** lawyer, po, hindi po. **[00:49:47.540] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. How about a case involving malversation or misuse of public funds? **[00:49:53.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi pa po. **[00:49:53.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. How about a case involving violation of RA 6713? **[00:49:59.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi pa po. Pero lahat po **[00:50:00.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ng elements nito alam po kahit po ng estudyante. **[00:50:03.080] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. **[00:50:03.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Gusto ko lang po **[00:50:04.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** masabi na **[00:50:04.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi po mahirap **[00:50:06.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** basahin yung batas. **[00:50:07.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We take that answer too. How about plunder? Have you handled a case involving plunder? How about handling a civil forfeiture case, sir? Have you done so? **[00:50:19.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not yet, po. **[00:50:20.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Have you been an expert witness, sir, in a graft and corruption case before any court? **[00:50:26.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po. CTA lang po ako nakapag-commissioner po. **[00:50:29.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:50:29.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. How about being an expert witness in a case involving unexplained wealth or ill-gotten wealth before the Sandiganbayan? **[00:50:38.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** This is the first **[00:50:39.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** time po and I hope it's the last. **[00:50:41.230] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay sir, we got that answer. Now, so you have not been an expert too in a civil forfeiture case in any court? **[00:50:48.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not yet po. **[00:50:48.950] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you sir. Have you been an amicus curiae in an unexplained or ill-gotten wealth case before the Sandiganbayan? **[00:50:57.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po, napaka-justices lang po pwede doon. **[00:51:00.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:51:01.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Why not, sir? How about a civil forfeiture case? Have you been an amicus curiae? **[00:51:06.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[00:51:06.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pa po. **[00:51:06.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:51:08.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Despite not having appeared in any court as counsel or as an amicus curiae, in cases involving graft and corruption, ill-gotten wealth, or civil for future, you of course are still appearing as an expert witness and opining on the supposed constitutional violations of the vice president, correct? **[00:51:29.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right **[00:51:30.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[00:51:30.590] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir. We understand also sir that you attended leadership and management program at Harvard Business School in 2006. **[00:51:40.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:51:40.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And that is a non-curriculum leadership program sir. **[00:51:46.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[00:51:47.600] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Which lasted for about a week? **[00:51:50.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** A week po, hindi po. **[00:51:51.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Four to six days? **[00:51:53.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Mga less na naman po pero mga one month po yung preparation. **[00:51:57.000] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you sir. And finally sir, **[00:52:03.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** May we know sir if you are a member of the Institute of Certified Forensic Accountants in the Philippines? **[00:52:10.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po. Nung tinayo po yan ay 2001. Eleven years na po akong partner nung **[00:52:16.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** tinayo po **[00:52:16.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** siya. **[00:52:16.810] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[00:52:17.130] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you for that answer. Eleven years **[00:52:18.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na po ako at partner na po ako nun. Sorry. **[00:52:20.010] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you sir. Thank you for that answer. **[00:52:23.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Pardon me sir. but I will have to ask you some more questions. Of course, these are not meant sir to downplay your achievements. Please have that in mind sir because your achievements are what they are already. Now, going back to your CV sir, Curriculum Vitae, Curriculum Vitae, can a copy be shown to the witness? **[00:53:00.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In your CV sir, nothing was attached to it. Do you confirm that, sir? **[00:53:06.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, ito lang po yung pre-prepare kong summary po. **[00:53:08.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, salamat po, sir. Your diplomas were not attached to the CV? **[00:53:13.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po, **[00:53:13.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi po naka- **[00:53:14.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Certifications from the PRC and the Supreme Court concerning your admission to the CPA profession and the bar were also not attached to the CV, correct, sir? **[00:53:25.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, **[00:53:25.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi po naka-attached. **[00:53:26.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Of course, again, this doesn't mean that they don't exist, but I'm just asking this as a matter of record, sir. Please understand. **[00:53:34.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po naka-attach po. **[00:53:35.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. No client testimonials were attached to your CV, sir. **[00:53:40.550] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** No **[00:53:41.190] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** certification from PWC also regarding your employment and partnership with the firm. **[00:53:47.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pa. **[00:53:47.330] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** No **[00:53:47.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** peer reviews were attached. No reviews by fellow tax lawyers, by audit partners were attached also in your CV, sir. **[00:53:59.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay sir, I **[00:54:02.680] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** understand. No other certifications on memberships were also attached to your CV, sir. **[00:54:08.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[00:54:08.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** nandun po. May isang kwarto po puro po, ano dun. **[00:54:11.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. **[00:54:12.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[00:54:13.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** salamat po. **[00:54:16.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Now, let's proceed with your appointment. Going back to your appointment letter. I hope you have a copy of that. **[00:54:28.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[00:54:29.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Going back to your appointment letter, may we know, sir, when did you accept your appointment as a forensic expert? **[00:54:35.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Noong **[00:54:35.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** June pa. **[00:54:36.380] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** June, if you can recall, ah, June first week or second week. That's your answer earlier. **[00:54:44.040] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. So, when did you commence your work, sir, after signing the appointment letter? If you just can recall. **[00:54:50.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Immediately po eh. Because naka, yeah, immediately po. **[00:54:54.660] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, by saying immediately, second week or third week of June? **[00:54:59.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yeah, around second **[00:54:59.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** week po yan. **[00:55:00.600] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Second week or third week of June. If you can recall, sir, what were the documents that were provided to you by the prosecution at that time? **[00:55:08.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Lahat po **[00:55:08.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** nung documents **[00:55:09.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na sinabit po sa impeachment court sa house po. **[00:55:14.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In June 2026, sir? **[00:55:15.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Lahat po nung mga galing po sa house na impeachment proceedings po. **[00:55:21.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Alright. So, you're saying that In June 2026, based on your recollection, you were already provided with SALNs of the respondent from 2022 to 2025. **[00:55:38.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** SALN **[00:55:39.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po, AMLA, **[00:55:40.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** AMLA documents, AMLC documents, income tax returns? **[00:55:44.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pa po. **[00:55:45.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pa. Financial **[00:55:46.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** statements po ng corporations. **[00:55:49.040] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Bank statements? **[00:55:50.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** GIS. **[00:55:51.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pa. **[00:55:51.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Wala pa. Okay. That's clear. Okay. Thank you, sir. **[00:55:55.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, when **[00:55:56.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** These documents were handed to you or provided to you in June 2026. **[00:56:04.500] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Did the turnover of the documents to you or was the turnover of these documents to you covered by any transmittal letter, sir? **[00:56:15.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang po nung karton. Parang meron po yata yung transmittal po. **[00:56:20.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay but **[00:56:20.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** there was a transmittal letter that was given to you **[00:56:24.640] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** and **[00:56:25.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** which you also received, sir? **[00:56:27.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I don't think I signed po. Pinadala po yung, pinadala po sa office ko po yung ano. **[00:56:34.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Precisely, they were not attached to your report? **[00:56:36.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[00:56:36.920] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That's the reason why? **[00:56:37.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[00:56:38.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Now, **[00:56:41.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** when you received the documents from the banks and the AMLC and the BAR, may I know when you received this sir? If you can recall? **[00:56:53.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Bandang September na po yan eh. **[00:56:55.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, September. Okay. **[00:56:55.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[00:56:58.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** When you received these subpoenaed documents, of course, it did not occur to you or did it ever occur to you that you or the person who provided the documents, the bank officers, the AMLC officers, or the BIR officers, may be violating confidentiality law, sir? **[00:57:20.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po akong concern po doon. Ang **[00:57:22.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** concern ko **[00:57:22.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** lang po ay matangga po yung documents sa prosecution at yun po yung titignan ko. **[00:57:27.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po akong **[00:57:27.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** concern doon sa... outside of that po. **[00:57:30.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. **[00:57:31.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** We are showing you this law, sir, that I mentioned earlier. **[00:57:37.680] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Kindly give your answers after my question, sir. For the AMLC report, sir, we are citing Section 8A of RA 916. **[00:57:51.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Section 8A, we are showing it on the screen, sir. I hope you can see that. **[00:57:59.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Medyo pa. **[00:58:00.670] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Section 8A provides, if I can read the first paragraph, the AMLC and its secretariat shall securely protect information received or processed and shall not reveal in any manner any information known to them by reason of this office. This prohibition shall apply even after their separation from the AMLC. And then the second provision that we will show is section 6 of RA 9194 which amends section 9C of RA 9160. Can that be shown on the screen? **[00:58:43.040] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Can the in-charge of the tech booth show that on screen? **[00:58:50.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly blow it up a bit. **[00:58:52.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Kindly blow it up a bit, David. **[00:58:56.950] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** I hope you can see that, sir. **[00:59:03.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Medyo mahirap po. **[00:59:05.460] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, I will just read it sir for your reference. Okay, when reporting covered or suspicious transactions to the AMLC, covered institutions and their officers and employees are prohibited from communicating directly or indirectly in any manner or by any means to any person or entity, the media, The fact that a covered or suspicious transaction report was made. The contents thereof or any other information in relation thereto. I'll stop in that portion. And lastly, sir, the last provision regarding the AMLC records that we will show on screen is Section 9D of RA 9194, which amends Section 14 of RA 9160. **[00:59:55.210] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Can that provision be shown on screen? Then I will read it also sir for your reference. Section 9, Section 14, Paragraphs C and D of the same act are hereby amended to read as follows. Letter D, breach of confidentiality. I will no longer specify the penalties but it includes imprisonment and fine. But this is not meant to scare you, sir. **[01:00:21.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I'm **[01:00:22.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** not scared **[01:00:22.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** naman po. **[01:00:23.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. I will now ask my question, sir. As a lawyer, you did not feel concerned that the furnishing of AMLC documents to you and information also to you without the permission of the impeachment court may violate this laws which we cited earlier. **[01:00:44.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dahil na take up na po sa house at pinagtalunan na po sa house, kaya po ang nasa isip ko ay okay lang po yan na **[01:00:52.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** tanggapin ko. **[01:00:53.380] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, salamat po. Now for the bank documents, we will also show Section 2 of RA 1405 or the Bank Secrecy Law. Kindly show it on the screen. I will also read it sir for your reference. Section 2, of course I know you are familiar with this. Section 2, all deposits of whatever nature. With banks or banking institutions in the Philippines, including investments in bonds issued by the government of the Philippines, its political subdivisions and its instrumentalities are hereby considered as an absolutely confidential... as of an absolutely confidential nature and may not be examined, inquired, or looked into by any person, government, official, bureau, or office except upon written permission of the depositor or in cases of impeachment. or upon order of a competent court in cases of bribery or the reliction of duty of public officials or in cases where the money deposited or invested is the subject matter of the litigation. Now, my question sir is, having known this law as a lawyer, you did not feel concerned also by the furnishing of copies of bank documents to you without the authority of the impeachment court? **[01:02:14.400] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Objection, Your Honor. **[01:02:16.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede pong sagutin. **[01:02:20.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Maya-maya na, Atty. Alex. **[01:02:22.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Are you withdrawing your objection that you haven't stated yet? **[01:02:26.880] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** May I just **[01:02:28.640] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** make a manifestation instead, Your Honor, that the witness earlier, when asked when he was provided with the documents in early June, said that he was not yet provided with the bank records at that time. **[01:02:41.500] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Just to be **[01:02:42.060] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** clear, Your Honor. **[01:02:42.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your Honor, quick reply. **[01:02:44.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Attorney Gacin. **[01:02:46.010] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** The questions were asked, in relation to his receipt already of the documents. Not when the documents were not yet provided to him. **[01:02:53.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** No, **[01:02:54.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** this one. This one. I think Honorable Diokno was referring to the earlier questions na sinagot ng testigo. Not this one. And the witness expressed willingness to answer. **[01:03:03.340] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, **[01:03:03.960] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** I withdraw my objection. **[01:03:05.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Duly **[01:03:05.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** noted. Witness may answer. **[01:03:07.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kaya po ako hindi concerned kasi sa 3019 po na siya pong section 8 po na nagsasabing yung **[01:03:15.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** acquisition po ng property na manifestly disproportionate po sa income po. **[01:03:20.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, **[01:03:20.840] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** I'm sorry, I have to stop you. **[01:03:22.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sinasabi po niya na bank deposits have been taken into consideration. **[01:03:26.540] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your Honor, please. **[01:03:28.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Alex, I think that would be enough. Again, any further explanation not called for in the question by Atty. Kristine may be dealt with by the Hon. Diokno during his redirect examination. **[01:03:41.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. My only question, my question was simple. You did not feel concerned? Hindi kayo nabahala when the bank documents were furnished to you by the prosecution without the authority or approval of the impeachment court? **[01:03:57.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dahil po 3019 po, ang **[01:03:59.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** bank deposits po ay kailangan din **[01:04:01.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pong matignan. **[01:04:03.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sabi po. Kaya po ako **[01:04:04.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi na **[01:04:05.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** bahala. Pinapaliwanag ko lang po kung **[01:04:07.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** bakit po ako **[01:04:07.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi na bahala. **[01:04:08.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nasa **[01:04:09.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** batas po yung bank deposits. Kailangan pong i-provide. **[01:04:11.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay sir. So the answer to that is no po. So for the BIR documents which you received also, we will be citing section 270 of the tax code. We are showing that on the screen. This refers to unlawful divulgence of information. I know that you are quite familiar with that provision, sir. It says that except as provided in section 6F and 71 of this code and section 26 of Republic Act number 6388, any officer or employee of the Bureau of Internal Revenue who divulges to any person or makes known in any other manner that may be provided by law, information regarding the business, income, or estate of any taxpayer, the secrets, operation, style, or work, or apparatus of any manufacturer, or producer, or confidential information regarding the business of any taxpayer, then I have to stop in that sentence. Now, sir, based on this... Section 270 of the Tax Code, although we know both that this refers to officers and tax agents of the BIR, you are not concerned of any possible violation under Section 270 when you were furnished copies of the BIR documents without the authority of the impeachment court? **[01:05:34.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, hindi ko po problema maging concerned po doon. **[01:05:37.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sige po, salamat po. **[01:05:38.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tatanggapin ko lang po yung document at akin pong i-examine at bibigyan po ng analysis. Wala pong concern kung meron pong concern doon. **[01:05:47.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, salamat po, sir. Now, let's go to your report, sir. I hope you have a copy of your report. Kindly furnish a copy of the report to the witness. **[01:06:04.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Let's go to page 24 of your report, sir. **[01:06:14.150] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** I **[01:06:23.330] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** hope you found page 24, sir. **[01:06:27.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, **[01:06:28.130] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. According to page 24 of your report, Your examination focused on three corporations, correct? **[01:06:37.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo, doon po kami nag-concentrate sa tatlong corporation po. **[01:06:40.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:06:40.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** salamat po, sir. And these corporations are Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, tama po, **[01:06:48.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:06:49.060] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** GenCorp **[01:06:49.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Industries Inc., **[01:06:50.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** tama po, **[01:06:52.370] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** and Cale88 Foods Corporation. **[01:06:55.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:06:55.470] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. You also mentioned in the same page, page 24, that the reason for this is because of lack of material time. Do you confirm that? Thank **[01:07:07.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, **[01:07:08.240] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. Now, we noticed that the report does not contain a checklist of documents, this report itself that you examined. that you made, sir. Can you confirm, sir, that this report does not contain the checklist of documents? **[01:07:22.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong checklist **[01:07:22.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** of documents. Every document that we examined. **[01:07:26.040] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. **[01:07:26.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. Pero meron po itong annex at nandun po yung mga documents na **[01:07:30.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pinonsider **[01:07:31.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po sa report. **[01:07:32.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, this document, this report does not contain that checklist. The main report, sir. **[01:07:39.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** But supported po with documents na nandun po sa annex. **[01:07:42.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. **[01:07:52.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your report also, sir, this report has no table of contents. Although it's only 50 pages, but it does not have a table of contents. **[01:08:01.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:08:01.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. Your report has no list of authorities. When I say list of authorities, it means the laws that you cited and the jurisprudence that you cited and the pages that... They were cited. It's a short summary of all of these authorities. **[01:08:17.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero **[01:08:18.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** meron pong mga footnote pa. **[01:08:19.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. I understand. But there is no list of authorities in the front page or somewhere else. Thank you, sir. Now, you can say this because of lack of material time too. **[01:08:31.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, **[01:08:32.820] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** let's go to the main report, sir. **[01:08:35.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** As **[01:08:47.010] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** the appointed forensic auditor, of the panel of prosecutors, it is your opinion, sir, that the spouses Carpio had an undeclared wealth of 817.8 million as of 2025, correct? **[01:09:02.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[01:09:02.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** this 817.8 million was the product of your examination of the documents provided to you by the prosecution, correct? Thank you, sir. Now, this 800... 17.8 million is composed of two items. First is undeclared assets. Sir, do you confirm that? **[01:09:26.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[01:09:27.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** second is undeclared income alleged. **[01:09:34.320] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Second **[01:09:36.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** is alleged undeclared income of the spouse's carpio. Correct? **[01:09:43.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, **[01:09:44.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** your report Does not contain any undeclared liabilities? **[01:09:51.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[01:09:52.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. Now, according to page 1 of your report, if you can refer to it, you did not examine or use any document coming from the respondent and her spouse, correct? **[01:10:07.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hinanap po namin doon sa impeachment proceedings **[01:10:09.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po **[01:10:09.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa answer. **[01:10:10.610] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:10:11.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. I have to **[01:10:11.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** stop you, sir. Sorry. I have to stop you, sir. Kindly respond to my question, please. **[01:10:17.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po **[01:10:18.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasi. Yan po yung sagot. **[01:10:21.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po **[01:10:21.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasi dun sa reply po, answer niya po sa House, tsaka po sa Senate. Wala **[01:10:25.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po kasi. **[01:10:25.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, that is a yes. You did not use any document coming from the respondent and her spouse. **[01:10:32.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Had there been, I would have used po. **[01:10:34.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Anyway, that is... Okay, let's answer the question, sir. Let's answer the question. So, that is a yes. Based on your report, of course. **[01:10:43.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And... The answer is yes. Will **[01:10:47.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** the witness kindly speak to the mic instead of simply nodding? So yes. **[01:10:51.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes. Okay. You also did not interview the respondent. Kindly just say yes or no. **[01:10:58.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes po. **[01:10:59.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. You also did not interview Mr. Manases Carpio. Yes or no only. **[01:11:04.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes po. Based on documents lang po kami. **[01:11:05.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you. No interview was made with the accountant of the respondent vice president. **[01:11:12.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes, po. Na-examine lang po namin yung FS nila. **[01:11:14.980] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, salamat po. **[01:11:16.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You also did not interview the accountant of Mr. Manases Carpio? **[01:11:20.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes, po. Pare-pareho naman po yung accountant nila. **[01:11:23.540] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Now, no interview was also conducted with the auditor of the spouse's Carpio, correct? **[01:11:29.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Correct po. Pare-pareho po lahat ng auditor nila. **[01:11:32.040] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Anyway, you already answered the question, sir. Thank you. Now, let's go to the undeclared cash, sir. In your alleged... Sorry, I have to rephrase my question, the alleged undeclared cash. Now, just a quick inquiry, sir. When did you receive the bank documents from the prosecution? You mentioned a date earlier, but can it be more specific, sir, if you can? You can look at your notes, it's okay. **[01:12:02.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nareceive po. September po namin nareceive eh. **[01:12:07.530] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, September, sir. Is it correct that the BDO The BDO documents containing four boxes, Metro Bank documents which are contained in three boxes, BPI documents which are contained in two boxes, Land Bank documents which are contained in one small box or one box, and Security Bank documents which are in five boxes and one envelope. **[01:12:44.610] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** and PS Bank documents which are in one envelope. All of these were received by you after September 8, 2026. If you can recall, sir. **[01:12:57.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. May time drive din pong **[01:12:59.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasama **[01:12:59.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Kaya may digital copy po kami. **[01:13:01.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. When exactly after September 8, 2026? **[01:13:06.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po ma-recall po yung exact date po. **[01:13:10.470] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But is it a week after that? **[01:13:13.440] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** A week **[01:13:14.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** after September 8, 2026, **[01:13:16.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** when **[01:13:17.920] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you received these documents that I enumerated, sir? **[01:13:23.230] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** If you can just recall, sir. **[01:13:25.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Parang around that week po eh. Parang second week po. **[01:13:30.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Second week of September. Okay, sir. Now, is it also correct to say that you received the Asia United Bank Corporation documents? East-West Banking Corporation documents, Philippine National Bank documents, and Union Bank of the Philippines documents later after September 22, 2026. **[01:13:58.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po ma-recall yung exact date po. **[01:14:01.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But these documents were received later by you. **[01:14:05.450] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[01:14:06.150] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** After September 22, 2026, of course. **[01:14:10.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron po mga bankong dumating po. Bank documents po ang **[01:14:14.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** dumating **[01:14:14.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na mga later po than the earlier batch po. **[01:14:16.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Salamat, sir. **[01:14:21.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Again, these documents that were transmitted to you by the prosecution, does not or does have transmittal letters with them? **[01:14:33.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. Wala pong transmittal letters po? **[01:14:37.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Meron ho bang transmittal letters? Or wala hong transmittal letters? **[01:14:40.280] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Parang **[01:14:40.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** wala pong... Hindi ko pa ma-recall na may exactong transmittal letters. **[01:14:44.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Pero **[01:14:45.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** minomonitor lang po namin yung mga dumarating po. **[01:14:48.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. So, you did not also provided the prosecution of copies or a list of the documents that were received by you. Did you provide that list, sir? **[01:14:59.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[01:14:59.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Wala **[01:14:59.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[01:14:59.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. **[01:15:01.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi po ang alam ko po, sabay pong pinadala sa **[01:15:03.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** prosecution **[01:15:04.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** at sa defense. **[01:15:05.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, I have no question yet. I think you have already answered my question, sir. Thank you, sir. **[01:15:12.920] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, your report, that's the reason why your report did not append any transmittal letter from the prosecution, correct? **[01:15:20.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sabay naman daw po kasi. **[01:15:21.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, salamat sir. Now, according to your report, **[01:15:25.440] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** the **[01:15:26.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** undeclared cash, you can also refer to your report sir, is the difference between the ending cash balance per bank and the cash declared in the SALN. You can refer to your notes sir. **[01:15:50.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Anong page po yung tinitignan niyo? **[01:15:53.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Wait, I'll look for it. **[01:16:02.460] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That's on page 3, sir. **[01:16:08.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ito po yung, ito pong page 3, ito po yung mga listahan po ng mga bank accounts po nila. **[01:16:15.690] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. Ah, kindly wait for my question, sir. **[01:16:27.670] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. So, in your cash audit, you determined the undeclared cash as the difference between the cash balance per bank. and the cash declared in the SALN, correct? **[01:16:42.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:16:42.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[01:16:43.110] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you assume that the cash per SALN is zero under that item, the cash item. Thank you, sir. Because the account cash was not specified in the SALN, correct? **[01:16:56.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:16:57.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You did not also consider in that specific report only on cash that the cash was slumped somewhere in the SALN, correct? **[01:17:09.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Naisip ko po. Possible pong ganun pero wala pong **[01:17:12.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** nakalagay **[01:17:12.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[01:17:13.080] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:17:13.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. Now, your report categorized the supposed bank accounts of the vice president and her husband into four. Your Honor, can I just ask permission to drink water? **[01:17:43.820] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. You can also drink water, sir. **[01:17:47.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, po. **[01:17:48.520] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your report categorized the supposed bank accounts into four. **[01:17:53.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Table 1, table 1 **[01:17:59.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** are the supposed accounts of the vice president, correct? **[01:18:02.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:18:04.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Table 2 are the supposed accounts of Manases Carpio, correct? **[01:18:10.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:18:11.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Table 3 are the supposed joint accounts held by the respondent and Mr. Manases Carpio, correct? **[01:18:18.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[01:18:19.570] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And table 4 are the supposed accounts of 888 Bistro, which is a sole proprietorship of Mr. Carpio, correct sir? **[01:18:29.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:18:30.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Going back to all of these tables, sir, the names of the account holders do not appear as a separate column in each of the tables, correct? You can go through each of the tables, sir. **[01:18:45.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. Nakalagay lang po yung account number, po. **[01:18:47.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, po. Thank you. Furthermore, there was no separate column in table 1 showing, let's go to table 1, sir, showing whether the listed accounts of the VP are held singly or with another person, correct? **[01:19:04.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Siya lang po yung nakapangalan po doon. **[01:19:08.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But it did not refer to any account name, sir, as reflected in the bank statement. **[01:19:14.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo, **[01:19:14.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** nakareflect naman po yung account number, **[01:19:15.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasi **[01:19:16.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sinabi po namin na accounts niya po ito. But, **[01:19:18.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** okay, can **[01:19:24.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** the person in the tech booth please remove the document? **[01:19:32.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** As earlier agreed, kindly, who's in the tech booth again? Is it Dave? **[01:19:38.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** David. Well, **[01:19:40.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** David, similar to your request with the prosecution, kindly redact the account numbers. **[01:19:47.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Kindly redact all the account numbers before flashing them on screen. **[01:19:52.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** That's also for the respondent. **[01:19:55.590] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, I'll go back to my question, sir. Table 1 does not show... The names of the account holders as reflected in the bank statements. **[01:20:06.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Only the account number po. It doesn't show the name. Kasi po sinabi na po **[01:20:10.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** namin. **[01:20:10.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. Kindly, I have to stop you on that. So, that table does not contain the names of the account holders. Now, **[01:20:25.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** one of the, or among the documents that are to be examined, in a forensic accounting are the kyc documents correct and your report does not contain sir can you please answer the question one of the documents that should be examined in a forensic audit are the kyc documents okay **[01:20:53.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank **[01:20:53.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you sir and uh your report as it is now does not contain Any information on the KYC documents that you examined? **[01:21:05.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Only when there is one provided by the bank po yung mga na-examine namin KYC. **[01:21:10.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So you're saying that there's no KYC that were provided to you, sir? **[01:21:15.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron po kaming KYC na... **[01:21:18.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** natanggap po. **[01:21:19.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Merong KYC na natanggap but not for all the banks. **[01:21:23.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:21:24.530] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** so you completed your examination without examining all of the KYCs of this bank. **[01:21:30.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Lahat lamang **[01:21:30.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po ng available documents. **[01:21:33.390] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you sir. Thank you for that answer. Now, so that is the reason why the KYC information are not reflected in your report. Correct? **[01:21:44.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right. **[01:21:45.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[01:21:45.370] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you sir. **[01:21:48.450] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now sir, you mentioned that you reviewed the year-end balances of each of the bank accounts. **[01:21:54.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[01:21:56.250] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But you did not conduct your own confirmation as to the nature of these accounts with the banks, correct? Of course, I know the answer to that because you were not authorized by the account holders. **[01:22:08.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** You answered your question po. **[01:22:10.440] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir. **[01:22:12.980] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And of course, you were not also given authority. to send confirmation letters to the banks, correct? **[01:22:21.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:22:21.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That's why no confirmation letters were also sent to these banks which you examined. **[01:22:27.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Nag-testify naman po yung mga taga-bank **[01:22:30.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po dito. **[01:22:30.890] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Yes, sir, that is already known to everyone. Now, with that, sir, you were not given any authority to inquire into any outstanding loans of the VP and her husband. **[01:22:47.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[01:22:48.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You were not given copies of loan documents from the bank, if any, correct? **[01:22:54.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:22:55.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And you were also not given copies of other bank documents aside from those that were provided to you by the prosecution. **[01:23:05.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:23:06.050] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. **[01:23:20.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, did you examine each and every transaction in the bank documents that were... furnished to you sir. **[01:23:31.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** As **[01:23:31.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** much as we can po pero very limited po yung time pero as much as we can we did what we could with the bank accounts **[01:23:39.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[01:23:39.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you sir. Because **[01:23:46.570] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** we did not see any statement here in your report that you examined all of the bank transactions of the vice president and her spouse. **[01:23:56.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** One by one po. Yes. Lahat po ng transaction. Oo. Meron po kami mga hinanap sa mga eliminations. Pero bawat isang transaction po na examine each and every transaction. **[01:24:08.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You were not able to examine all of those, sir? **[01:24:12.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang in-examine po namin ay ano po yung inflows tapos ano po yung mga dapat tanggalin po dun sa inflows. **[01:24:18.670] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. So, in short, sir, as you have said earlier, hanggang kaya lang. So, you were not able to examine all of the bank documents. Each and every transaction stated in the bank documents that were provided to you by the prosecution. **[01:24:35.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung ano po yung naibigay lamang po sa amin, yun lang po ang pwede naming pagbasihan. **[01:24:39.230] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. **[01:24:44.050] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Did you also check, sir, whether the signature of the vice president appeared in the documents that you examined? **[01:24:51.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, pa. **[01:24:54.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Did you check whether her signatures appear in the acquisition of manager's checks. **[01:25:03.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang nag-a-appear po dun yung application po. **[01:25:06.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Application form. I'm sorry. **[01:25:08.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[01:25:09.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. I will rephrase that question. Yes. The application form, I'm referring to that, sir. The application form concerning the application of manager's checks. **[01:25:17.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po siyang **[01:25:18.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** signature doon pero yung pangalan niya lang po yung nakalagay. **[01:25:21.060] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So in short, based on the documents that you examined, the vice president has no signature in all of the applications for managers checks in the documents that you examined. **[01:25:31.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ito **[01:25:31.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po ba yung **[01:25:31.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa kanilang joint bank accounts po? **[01:25:33.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Later we will go to that, sir. Okay. You also examined the signature of the vice president in the renewal of her signature cards if such document was furnished to you, sir. **[01:25:51.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[01:25:52.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But... There was no mention here. **[01:25:54.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung **[01:25:55.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** KYC po. Yung KYC update niya po. **[01:25:58.140] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Update, yes, sir. **[01:25:59.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ah, yung KYC update niya. **[01:26:00.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[01:26:01.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you were able to examine those, sir. But there was no mention here of the examination done by you, sir, of those updated KYC documents. Am I correct? **[01:26:11.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Parang hindi ko po nabanggit dito yun. **[01:26:13.750] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Updated **[01:26:14.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** KYC documents po. **[01:26:15.570] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. Now, in **[01:26:24.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** examining the bank account, sir, of the Vice President, You considered the bank accounts that were singly owned by Mr. Manases Carpio, correct? **[01:26:36.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[01:26:37.910] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And this is found under tables 2 and 4 of your report, sir. But do you have any personal knowledge whether the Vice President actually knew? The existence of this account. **[01:26:56.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Personal knowledge po, wala po. **[01:26:57.880] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Wala. Salamat, sir. **[01:27:03.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** To set the record straight, sir, this examination of the bank balances that you made, this was made without hearing the side of the account owners, specifically the spouses, Scorpio. **[01:27:17.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** As mentioned po, documents lang po ang tinignan namin. **[01:27:20.050] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. It did not consider also the inputs, comments, and clarifications of these spouses, as you had mentioned, sir. **[01:27:28.380] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** It did **[01:27:30.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** not also consider the side of the former President Rodrigo Roa Duterte with respect to the account or accounts that he singly owned and or jointly held with the Vice President, correct? **[01:27:42.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:27:43.890] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You also did not consider the past books and other documents in possession of the respondent and her spouse. **[01:27:51.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Passbook, **[01:27:51.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** additional cash po na hindi namin **[01:27:54.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na-examine. **[01:27:54.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** I will repeat my question, sir. You did not also consider the bank documents in possession of the respondent. **[01:28:03.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Lahat po ng bank documents **[01:28:04.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po na nasami lang. Kung meron pa po silang ibang bank document, hindi ko po alam yan. **[01:28:09.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Salamat po. Now, you said also, sir, in your report that you received copies of the AMLC. reports, correct? **[01:28:21.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But **[01:28:24.830] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** nowhere in the computation of the cash balances were the AMLC reports mentioned, correct? **[01:28:32.880] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** It **[01:28:33.520] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** is because, if you agree with me, the computation of cash balance is based on actual cash flows, correct? **[01:28:44.320] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[01:28:44.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** not merely on supposed total inflows and outflows, correct? **[01:28:50.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** AMLC po ba pinag-uusapan? **[01:28:52.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. **[01:28:52.840] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Ah, **[01:28:53.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung AMLC **[01:28:53.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po, pag na-tag nila. **[01:28:55.420] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[01:28:55.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. But, the AMLC report was not considered in your report. Insofar as determining the net assets of the respondent is concerned. **[01:29:04.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, **[01:29:05.460] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. **[01:29:09.000] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, you agree with me also that the amount of, I hope you bear with me, sir, the amount of inflows of 1.1,630,351, sorry. The amount of 1,630,351,607.68 supposed inflows do not appear in your report. **[01:29:37.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Saan po nanggaling yung amount? **[01:29:38.670] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** AMLC po. **[01:29:39.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Iba po yung total nila eh. **[01:29:41.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you. Thank **[01:29:42.890] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, **[01:29:44.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. Because as you said earlier, their totals are not considered in computing the net assets of the respondent. Correct? **[01:29:52.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:29:52.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you. **[01:29:54.560] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And it's the same with the supposed outflows from the AMLC, which is... 1,308,123,526.68 pesos. The same does not appear in your forensic report. **[01:30:11.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:30:12.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. **[01:30:19.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, let's go to the investments portion and the insurance. **[01:30:33.530] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** As a lawyer, sir, I am sure you are aware of Section 3, RA 10607. or the insurance code. We will show the provision on screen. **[01:30:49.550] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Tech, please. **[01:30:52.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Can it be zoomed? **[01:30:59.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, I hope you can see that. But nevertheless, I will read the provision, sir. Section 3 of RA 10607, otherwise known as the insurance code, it says that any contingent or unknown event whether past or future which may damnify a person having an insurable interest or create a liability against him may be insured against subject to the provisions of this chapter. And then the second sentence says, the consent of the spouse is not necessary for the validity of an insurance policy taken out by a married person on his or her life or that of his children. I hope that is clear. Now, sir, based on this section, the consent of the spouse is unnecessary when the other spouse takes out an insurance policy. Correct? **[01:31:58.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:31:59.000] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And you have no personal knowledge, sir, whether the vice president actually knew about the policies or insurance policies that were taken out by Manases Carpio. **[01:32:10.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang knowledge lang po namin is absolute community of property po. **[01:32:14.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. But on the actual knowledge of the Vice President as to this insurance, you have no knowledge. You have no personal information or personal knowledge about this. **[01:32:22.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** About ano po? **[01:32:23.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** About whether the VP has actual knowledge of this insurance policies of Mr. Carpio. **[01:32:29.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po, wala po. **[01:32:31.270] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go to the business interest, sir. **[01:32:49.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Page 10, sir, of the report. **[01:33:08.330] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Did you find it, sir? Thank you. **[01:33:12.430] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** For the business interest under letter C, sir, you mentioned here in the first paragraph, second sentence, I hope you can follow, sir, that to accurately report the value of a business, a formal valuation exercise should be conducted. **[01:33:33.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:33:34.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** However, you continued, for lack of information and material time to conduct such evaluation exercise, we were conservatively used as evaluation her interest in business and of her spouse. Now, I'll stop on that because we will tackle all of this. Now, based on this statement, sir, due to lack of material time, You did not conduct a formal valuation exercise. **[01:34:04.390] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Formal evaluation exercise. **[01:34:06.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala rin pong information. **[01:34:07.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. And, am I correct to say, sir, that from the moment that you were furnished copies of the bank documents on September 8, after, rather, September 8, around the second week of September 8, and then up to the time that you finished your report, in October 2. Is that correct, sir? Did you finish your report in October 2? **[01:34:34.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** October 2. **[01:34:35.430] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, from the second week of September to October 2, you barely had two weeks to finish the forensic report, sir? Is that correct? **[01:34:46.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** September 2, October 2. **[01:34:48.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** September, second week. **[01:34:50.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ma, **[01:34:51.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** three weeks. Okay, around three weeks. We'll take that answer, sir. So, yes, **[01:34:58.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. So, we will, so your forensic report, was done in a matter of around three weeks, correct? That's the complete examination of documents. **[01:35:08.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi lang po three weeks kasi meron pong first party po ba? Nung mga bandang June po na natanggap namin yung mga documents coming from the... **[01:35:17.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Those are the documents that came from the SEC, right? **[01:35:21.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** SEC, AMLA po. But **[01:35:23.930] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you said earlier that... **[01:35:26.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Bank **[01:35:26.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** accounts po. **[01:35:27.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[01:35:27.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero **[01:35:28.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung forensic report **[01:35:28.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po kasi **[01:35:29.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasama po yung mga SECD po ba? **[01:35:31.240] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. We take that. But insofar as the bank accounts are concerned, you only had three weeks to examine all of those bank accounts. Thank you, sir. **[01:35:43.690] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, in computing the supposed business interest of the VP, you focus on these two corporations. I'm talking about the business interest, sir. The GenCorp, Industries Inc., You can look at your notes. And then, Cale88 Foods Corporation, correct? **[01:36:05.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Metro City Chow din po. **[01:36:07.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** I'm still on page 10, sir. **[01:36:15.280] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Interest in businesses. **[01:36:17.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ah, po. Cale po ito. **[01:36:18.600] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Alleged interest in businesses. Now, I'm just reading your report, sir. So, yeah. So, alleged interest in businesses. So, in computing... **[01:36:28.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong nakalagay na alleged sa report ko po. **[01:36:31.500] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That's our position, sir. **[01:36:33.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sabi niyo po **[01:36:33.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** you're reading my report po eh. **[01:36:35.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Hindi, kanina po. So, that is our position, sir. I'm sorry. So, you consider these two corporations, the GenCorp Industries Inc. and Cal88 Foods Corporation. Now, in computing the business interest of the VP, you **[01:36:58.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** considered, or the capital investments in **[01:37:03.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Gencorp. We're on Gencorp, sir. Okay. The capital investments in Gencorp, you **[01:37:14.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** formulated table 15. **[01:37:20.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, let's go to table 15. Okay. **[01:37:29.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But before that, sir, preliminary questions. **[01:37:34.010] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** The Gencorp, Gencorp was mentioned in the Vice President's 2024 and 2025 SALN. That **[01:37:41.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** was **[01:37:41.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** your position. **[01:37:43.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:37:43.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That **[01:37:44.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** was my observation. **[01:37:45.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. **[01:37:47.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But you also observed that, according to you, there was no valuation that can be found in the SALN, correct? **[01:37:57.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[01:37:57.840] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now we are showing you copies of the 2024-2025 SALN. We will not show copies of these documents. We will only show these documents to the witness. **[01:38:07.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now **[01:38:08.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** we are showing you copies of the 2024-2025 SALN, sir. **[01:38:15.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Let's go to page 4. **[01:38:19.780] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Let's go to page 4 on business interest and financial connections. **[01:38:27.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** On page 4. **[01:38:30.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, would you agree with me that that section in the SALN does not include a column of acquisition cost of shares of stock? **[01:38:37.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Mag-appear po siya dapat doon sa investments po. **[01:38:40.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, I'm only asking with respect to that column. **[01:38:42.550] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dito po wala, pero sa kabila **[01:38:43.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** meron po. **[01:38:44.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** for both the years 2024 and 2025. Okay. But nonetheless, you allege in your report that the value of the respondent vice president's business interest were not reported in the SALN because of lack of valuation in that column, sir. In that portion. **[01:39:02.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dito po siya dapat sabi nilagay. **[01:39:04.600] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** I'm asking only about that portion. **[01:39:06.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dito po, wala **[01:39:08.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** rin **[01:39:09.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po nakalagay. **[01:39:10.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. So, the answer is there is no indication of cost in that particular column. Thank you, sir. **[01:39:19.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, in computing the supposed business interest of the VP in GenCorp, you considered two items, sir. The first item is the supposed amount of investments per GIS. **[01:39:34.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** The second **[01:39:36.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** is a derived capital contribution. When you say derived capital contributions, sir, correct me if I'm wrong or at least I have heard this also from your counsel, that derived capital is what we call also as an attributed capital, correct? Okay, attributed capital. In fact, your team came up with an attributed capital of the VP in GenCorp at 20%, correct? **[01:40:02.380] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[01:40:03.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** this 20% attribution was based on the assumption that the VP And her spouse exercised significant influence over GenCorp, correct? **[01:40:14.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Si VP lang po. Si **[01:40:16.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** VP, okay. Hindi po **[01:40:16.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasama yung spouse po. **[01:40:17.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Si VP, yes. VP exercised significant influence over GenCorp. And the second reason for this attribution is that the vice president owns or has equity of 20% in Metro Chao City Foods Corporation. **[01:40:34.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi lang po yun, pero **[01:40:36.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** tama **[01:40:36.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po kayo na part po yun. **[01:40:38.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. But that attribution or assumption was not based on any contract or document that you have examined, correct? **[01:40:47.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong **[01:40:47.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kontrata. **[01:40:48.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:40:48.790] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. It was not based on any deed of assignment or any subscription agreement which was made available to you for your examination, correct? **[01:41:00.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:41:01.450] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Because nothing was made available to you for your examination. **[01:41:04.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Yung absence po ng document ay ebidensya rin po sa amin yan. **[01:41:08.750] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you. Now, despite of any written contract, deed of assignment, or subscription agreement, you still find that the VP has 20% ownership in GenCorp, correct? **[01:41:21.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:41:21.690] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[01:41:22.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you. Now, let's go to table 15. **[01:41:26.240] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Let's refer to the paid-up capital in **[01:41:32.480] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** the second column, sir. For the years 2022 to 2024, that column mentions that The VP has paid up capital of 300,000 in GenCorp, correct? **[01:41:44.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[01:41:47.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sandali lang po. **[01:41:48.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But, okay, sir. Okay. Ah, **[01:41:52.060] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** okay. Ito po. **[01:41:53.880] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Is that correct, sir? **[01:41:55.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:41:55.900] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, before I'll ask my next question, can the witness be provided with copies of the GIS of GenCorp for 2022 to 2025? We are showing you copies of documents of, or GIS of GenCorp for this particular year, sir. Now, There is a 300,000 paid up capital under that column, sir. But for the year, I will finish until 2025. Also for the year 2025, there is a paid up capital of 262,500 pesos, sir. Correct? **[01:42:34.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sa GIS po? **[01:42:35.290] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Hindi, sa table po. **[01:42:37.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sorry po, natakpa niya **[01:42:38.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[01:42:39.130] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sorry, sir. **[01:42:40.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes. **[01:42:41.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** in the table that you provided **[01:42:44.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes, sir. **[01:42:45.060] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** in your report. Okay. Now, that 300,000 pesos paid up capital cannot be found or the... Okay. The 2024... **[01:42:57.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala **[01:42:58.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po sa GIS. **[01:42:58.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you for answering. So, you confirm, you confirm, sir, that all of this paid up capital under the second column of table 15 of your report... cannot be found in the GIS of GenCorp. Thank you, sir. Now, let's go to the paid-up capital of Manases Carpio in GenCorp. Also, that is in the third column of Table 15. **[01:43:27.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Can you find it, sir? **[01:43:29.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[01:43:29.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po siya paid-up capital sa **[01:43:31.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** GenCorp. **[01:43:31.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** It's paid-up capital by spouse. **[01:43:33.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** By **[01:43:33.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** spouse po. **[01:43:34.920] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[01:43:35.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sa, ano po ito, sa Calil 88 po yata. **[01:43:38.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you. **[01:43:39.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At saka **[01:43:39.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa, so **[01:43:41.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasama **[01:43:43.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yung, **[01:43:44.280] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Now, let's go to another point, sir. **[01:43:51.550] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Let's go to the calculated capital contribution to GenCorp. In the fourth column, calculated capital contribution to GenCorp, you indicated the amount of 35 million per year, sir. Tama **[01:44:05.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[01:44:06.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Is it correct to say, sir, that it is an assigned capital? Assigned capital? **[01:44:13.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Assigned capital po? Yes. **[01:44:14.930] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** What do **[01:44:15.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** you mean po? Sorry po. **[01:44:16.370] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Or... Now, I'm just asking if it's correct. But it's more appropriate to say that it's an attributed capital. **[01:44:22.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Attributed capital po sa sensitivity analysis po **[01:44:25.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** namin. **[01:44:26.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. Now, that 35 million attributed capital was calculated on the following assumptions. Now, I hope you can follow me, sir. First assumption in your report is that GenCorp has five Jollibee branches. **[01:44:45.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[01:44:45.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po siya assumption, nasa receipts po. **[01:44:47.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay sir, okay. Based on the receipts that you attach to your report. GenCorp has five Jollibee branches and these branches are in certain center point, correct? **[01:44:59.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, kung ano po yung naka-appear po? **[01:45:01.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Center point, I will just enumerate them. Center point, Brisa, the second branch, Bolton, the third branch, Gaysano Mall, the fourth branch, and Times Square Plaza, correct? **[01:45:15.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:45:16.570] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But these receipts that were attached to your report were only provided to you by the prosecution, correct? **[01:45:23.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:45:24.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you. Now, the second assumption that you made is that **[01:45:33.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** GenCorp has five branches based on the official receipts that you gathered which show its corporate name. **[01:45:44.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:45:45.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. To be clear, you did not directly inquire from GenCorp whether it is the owner of these five Jollibee branches. Okay. Then, having found those five receipts, you browsed the internet. That's the desktop research that you were referring to, sir. Correct? You browsed the internet, you went to the Jollibee website, correct? And found out the initial franchise cost, which is 35 million pesos. Correct? **[01:46:15.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi lang po yung ginawa namin pero ito lang po yung **[01:46:18.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** publicly available **[01:46:19.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[01:46:20.270] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes sir. **[01:46:20.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero nagtanong din po kami sa mga owners lamang wala pong evidence **[01:46:25.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. So **[01:46:26.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ito lang po yung **[01:46:26.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ginamit namin, **[01:46:27.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung very low figure na 35. **[01:46:29.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir for that clarification. Again, your report did not say that you made a written inquiry with Jollibee Foods Corporation. **[01:46:37.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Made an inquiry po? **[01:46:39.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Oo, written inquiry po sir. **[01:46:40.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong **[01:46:41.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** written inquiry po. **[01:46:41.820] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay sir. You just relied on what was shown to you in the webpage of Jollibee. Okay, thank you, sir. Now, given the 35 million franchise cost, which you researched from the web, you now came up with a calculated capital contribution to GenCorp of 35 million each in all of the four years that were covered in the salary. **[01:47:03.590] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, **[01:47:06.930] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. **[01:47:14.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And when you add... The paid up capital based on the supposed or the attributed 20% ownership in GenCorp and also the paid up capital by spouse in Cale88 and also the calculated capital contribution to GenCorp based on the franchise amount or cost of Jollibee. You came up with the paid up capital under C1, correct sir? **[01:47:43.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:47:43.790] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:47:44.150] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you sir. And in so far as this paid up capital is concerned, the totals reflected therein are, in 2022, it's 35,359,375 pesos, correct? **[01:48:01.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama pa. **[01:48:02.610] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** 2023, 37,109,375 pesos, correct? **[01:48:10.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama pa. **[01:48:11.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** 2024, 37,859,375,000, correct? **[01:48:18.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:48:19.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And then **[01:48:19.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** in 2025, it's 39,321,875 pesos, correct? **[01:48:27.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:48:27.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, you mentioned in your report and confirmed now that you did not use any document in possession of the VP and her spouse. That is **[01:48:36.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** right po. **[01:48:36.670] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Am I correct in saying, sir, that... You were not able to get documents from the VP herself and her spouse. **[01:48:43.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is correct. **[01:48:44.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You were not able to get documents in their possession pertaining to GenCorp. **[01:48:50.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:48:51.520] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You do not have copies of subscription contracts or subscription agreements concerning GenCorp's shares with you. **[01:48:59.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[01:49:00.640] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You were not able to examine any deeds of assignment of shares of stock involving the shares The supposed shares of the vice president in GenCorp, correct? **[01:49:10.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:49:11.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You **[01:49:11.660] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** are not able to examine GenCorp stock and transfer book, correct? **[01:49:15.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:49:15.640] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You do not have with you or your team any stock certificate or stock certificates issued by GenCorp to the respondent, Vice President Sara Duterte, correct? **[01:49:26.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:49:27.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You are not able to examine GenCorp's franchise agreements too. **[01:49:32.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Correct. **[01:49:33.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You did not make any inquiry with Jollibee Foods Corporation as to the actual franchise cost of these five Jollibee franchises in Davao. **[01:49:41.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Correct. And **[01:49:42.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** these franchises refer to the franchises of GenCorp. **[01:49:45.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Correct. **[01:49:46.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You were not able to interview the independent auditor of GenCorp, correct? **[01:49:58.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** The one that issued the qualified opinion. **[01:50:01.190] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** The independent auditor. You **[01:50:03.470] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** were **[01:50:04.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** not able to obtain copies of her audit working papers. **[01:50:08.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In **[01:50:09.300] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** short, this supposed investment in GenCorp was calculated based on the documents that were provided to you by the prosecution. **[01:50:21.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[01:50:22.950] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** based on all of those, you attributed a capital of 20% to the Vice President, Sara Duterte. **[01:50:31.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:50:32.360] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[01:50:32.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you, sir. Now, let's go to Cale88 and the supposed advances of Manases Carpio, sir. **[01:51:04.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** On page 11, sir, of your report. **[01:51:07.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I'm there, po. **[01:51:08.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[01:51:08.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. Now, in computing the supposed advances of Manases Carpio and Cale88, You multiplied his supposed percentage of ownership which is 47.5% with **[01:51:22.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** the **[01:51:24.250] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** total amount of advances in Cale88. **[01:51:30.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** However, you have neither seen nor examined any loan document concerning the supposed advances of Manases Carpio in Cale88. **[01:51:42.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dito po yung partner niya si Dr. Lebosada. Tag 47.5% **[01:51:46.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po siya. Yes, sir. **[01:51:47.020] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. But I'm referring to your examination of any loan document pertaining to the supposed advances of Manasas Carpio in Cale88. You did not or were not able to examine any loan document. **[01:52:02.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron po sa FS, wala pong loan document. Advances po yun eh. **[01:52:06.540] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yeah, I will go to that, sir. Not only loan document, but... Any other transaction record or records in Cale88 supporting this supposed advances? **[01:52:18.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:52:19.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[01:52:19.270] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. Because you have no access to the corporate records and books of accounts of Cale88. **[01:52:24.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Only the financial **[01:52:24.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** statements po. **[01:52:25.790] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[01:52:26.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. But despite not having seen any loan document or transaction records, or not having seen the books of accounts of Cale88, you still opine, sir, that Manases has advances to Cale88 totaling, I will enumerate, sir, in 2022, 8.7 million, correct? **[01:52:51.980] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** According to your report. In 2022, 8.7 million. In 2023, 9.5 million, sir. **[01:53:01.040] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In **[01:53:01.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** 2024, 11.1 million, and in 2025, 9.5 million, sir. Then, based on all of these methodologies that you have employed or employed by your team, you came up with a summary of undeclared properties in table 17. **[01:53:23.720] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** That's on page 12, sir. Correct? **[01:53:26.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:53:26.980] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[01:53:30.930] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You then opined that out of the total properties of the respondent VP, **[01:53:37.950] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Only 20% were declared by her, correct? **[01:53:41.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** On average po, sa SALN po. **[01:53:43.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[01:53:43.970] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. That is and that was based on the methodologies that you employed. **[01:53:49.330] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. **[01:54:06.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. I hope you're still okay, sir. You can drink more. **[01:54:09.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sobrang **[01:54:09.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** okay po. **[01:54:10.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. Let's go to the undeclared income, sir. **[01:54:20.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Reference, what page is that, Attorney Kristine? **[01:54:23.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In **[01:54:23.610] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the report? **[01:54:25.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** On page 15, Your Honor. **[01:54:27.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes. **[01:54:29.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** May I proceed? **[01:54:30.680] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[01:54:31.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Undeclared income. Let's go to, sorry, we will go further. Table 23, sir. **[01:54:41.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Third column. **[01:54:43.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** For your easy reference, Attorney Kristine, let's try to break for lunch at 12. So you try to manage it a bit. Where you'll end. **[01:54:55.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** para mabilang natin na exacto na dalawang oras ka na. **[01:54:57.800] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, Your **[01:54:58.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Honor. **[01:54:59.430] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Actually, we can pause here, Your Honor. **[01:55:01.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi, para nga mabilang natin yung eksaktong dalawang oras ka na nakatayo diyan. **[01:55:04.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Gawin mo ng 12 para eksakto, tapos nagsimula ka ulit ng 1, tapos hanggang kung anong oras man. **[01:55:09.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[01:55:10.170] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your Honor. We will comply. **[01:55:13.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, let's go to page 17, Sir. Page 17 on Table 23, Sir. I hope you have found it already. **[01:55:25.750] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, **[01:55:26.850] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** sir. On the third column, sir, that column, sir, says identified bank inflows, correct? **[01:55:37.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:55:38.740] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Under that column, sir, the amounts that you provided therein, sir, **[01:55:51.770] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Do you agree with me, sir, that you do not actually know the nature and sources of these inflows? **[01:55:56.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sources po ng inflow. **[01:55:58.210] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Nature of these inflows. **[01:56:00.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** They're deposits po in cash. **[01:56:02.710] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But the sources of these inflows, you have no personal knowledge. **[01:56:05.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I **[01:56:05.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** have no **[01:56:06.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** personal knowledge on the persons who deposited these inflows. **[01:56:10.070] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. On several check payments with blackout names, let's go to page 18, sir. On table 24. I hope you already saw that. **[01:56:24.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes po. **[01:56:25.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, was your team authorized to block them out? Remove the cover? Was it your team who did that? **[01:56:32.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** No, no. **[01:56:33.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** We **[01:56:33.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** received it that way po. **[01:56:35.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay sir, thank you sir for that clarification. **[01:56:38.440] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, in account number ending 2743, **[01:56:48.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** under... Video **[01:56:53.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** account checking po ni Mans po. **[01:56:55.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You already answered my question, sir. Okay. That account, sir, ending 2743, sir, do not belong to the respondent. **[01:57:04.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[01:57:05.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[01:57:05.440] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** As you had already mentioned. Now, let's go to this Lourdes Lebosada. **[01:57:12.730] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** On page 18, item number 2. Okay, you said that this Lourdes Lebosada was the dentist of the vice president. **[01:57:22.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:57:23.120] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Correct? And... You appended her photo and the photo of the vice president, correct? And this Lourdes is also the payee of the check amounting to 11.35 million, correct? **[01:57:37.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:57:39.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Amounting, Aggregating po. Marami pong cheque po yan. **[01:57:41.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. And even last Friday, you commented, hindi naman yata ito bayad sa pasta. Something along those lines. **[01:57:50.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pasensya **[01:57:50.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na po. Nagtatanggal lang po ng pagod. **[01:57:53.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** It's okay, sir. but actually you do not have personal knowledge on the purpose of such payment or payments as you said. **[01:58:00.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That is correct po. **[01:58:01.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you sir whether uh those payments were for payment for obligations purchase of property you do not actually know the purpose of those **[01:58:11.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** payments. **[01:58:12.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:58:12.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you sir. The same is true with respect to the rest of the payees uh under letter b to F, sir. **[01:58:21.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. Hindi po namin ito ilalagay dito kung hindi po blinock out. Kaya lang po namin **[01:58:25.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ilalagay dito. **[01:58:25.790] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. But you do not have personal knowledge as to the purposes of the issuances of checks to these people. **[01:58:33.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[01:58:33.870] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. **[01:58:42.160] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, sir, let's go to item 3. **[01:58:46.490] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Item 3 on page 9. Disopposed security bank account number 0392. I will not. Okay, that's the beginning. Those are the beginning digits. Now, you do not have personal knowledge on the reasons of the fund transfers under this paragraph, sir. **[01:59:06.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[01:59:07.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Although, **[01:59:08.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** partner niya po yung... **[01:59:10.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. But the reason for the fund transfers, you do not know those, sir? **[01:59:14.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[01:59:14.840] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Thank you, sir. **[01:59:19.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, let's go, sir, to tinikling. Number four, item four. This is the alleged. kiting of checks under item 4, sir. I think I already got the answer earlier that you know also that this is the account of the former president with the vice president, Sara Duterte. Now, sir, on this item, sir, are you aware that none of the MC application forms were signed by the vice president? **[01:59:54.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I am **[01:59:54.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** aware, po. **[01:59:54.700] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, thank you, sir. And you confirm that now, sir? **[01:59:57.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[01:59:58.180] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you. **[02:00:01.650] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Are you aware also, sir, that this account was held by the former President Rodrigo Duterte either singly or jointly with the Vice President? **[02:00:12.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[02:00:13.130] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. **[02:00:15.980] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In any case, sir, you do not know the purpose of the purchase of these MCs, correct? **[02:00:22.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** The purpose po? **[02:00:24.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. You do not know. **[02:00:26.550] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** The purchase of **[02:00:27.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** the MC po? **[02:00:28.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. You do not have personal knowledge as to the purpose of the purchase of these MCs. **[02:00:34.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** We can only observe. **[02:00:36.380] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes sir. **[02:00:36.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At nakikita po doon **[02:00:37.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa observation namin. **[02:00:38.820] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** But the answer is, sorry, I have to stop you right there sir. The answer is yes, you do not have personal knowledge. **[02:00:43.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Personal knowledge, the state of mind po is shown by the actions po. **[02:00:47.140] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Anyway, I'll move on sir. Now with respect to the credit card records, let's go to page 20 sir. **[02:01:03.130] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Page 20, sir. Actually, you referred to the 256,882.5 Nike Pavilion KL Kuala Lumpur purchase, which you mentioned last Friday, of course. **[02:01:17.590] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[02:01:18.270] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. Now, sir, are you aware that this credit card belongs to Manases Carpio, sir? **[02:01:23.950] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And **[02:01:24.550] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** are you aware that... The purchases that were made therein was for the purpose of providing sports apparel and other items to the basketball team of his son. Are you aware of that? **[02:01:37.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not aware **[02:01:37.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[02:01:38.030] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank **[02:01:38.310] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you, sir. Let's go also, sir, to the Ginzat Inakaya Tokyo expenses. That was also referred to you, referred by you in your testimony last Friday, sir. **[02:01:52.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Are you aware, sir, that this expense or these expenses pertain to expenses incurred of a large group with Manases Carpio while he was traveling with this companion. **[02:02:08.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I assume po it's a **[02:02:09.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** large group. **[02:02:10.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po kayang kainin na isang tao to eh. **[02:02:11.940] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And because, are you aware that the reason, are you aware that the reason for this is that the members of this group have no available Japanese yen with them. That's why they had to use the credit card of Manases Carpio. You're aware of that, sir? **[02:02:27.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I don't, I'm not aware **[02:02:29.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[02:02:29.760] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, **[02:02:30.280] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** thank you. Thank you, sir. You're not, so that is yes. **[02:02:36.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, sir, in computing the alleged undeclared income of the spouses, you pierced the veil of corporate fiction of Metro City Chow and GenCorp. **[02:02:50.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. And Cale88 po. **[02:02:54.010] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. Of course. That is also in your report. So, these four corporations, sorry, three corporations, separate juridical entities were pierced. **[02:03:11.090] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And when we say pierced, sir, when we say pierced, piercing the veil, you are setting aside the separate juridical personalities of these three corporations, correct? Because of an alleged fraud. **[02:03:26.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po siya alleged eh. **[02:03:28.820] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** because of your supposed findings. Your supposed finding of fraud. **[02:03:36.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Findings from the numbers po. **[02:03:38.500] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, that is based on your assessment. Your opinion, sir. **[02:03:42.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** May **[02:03:42.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** observation po, hindi po siya. Observation. **[02:03:45.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Observation niyo po. We will take that answer. Now, **[02:03:52.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** without declaration of dividends, because you pierced the veil already of the three corporate entities, you imputed 20% alleged income in the case of GenCorp. **[02:04:06.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Using the equity balances. **[02:04:08.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Yes, sir. The one that you identified earlier. **[02:04:10.620] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[02:04:11.960] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Representing the alleged share of the respondent in the income of GENCORP as well as Metro City. Because Metro City, she has a 20% equity based on your analysis. **[02:04:24.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[02:04:25.100] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. And, all of these attributions was because of the supposed fraud that, uh... Based on your own assessment, sir. Based on your own assessment, there was an alleged or supposed fraud that were perpetrated by the respondent using the separate juridical entities. Sir, that's why you pierced the veil of corporate fiction. **[02:04:52.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po siya supposed fraud. Non-reporting po siya. **[02:04:55.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In your case, that is your findings. That is your opinion. **[02:04:58.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po. **[02:04:58.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron po akong testigo eh. **[02:05:00.790] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Anyway. **[02:05:03.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** You also mentioned the tax code, sir. In explaining the piercing the veil, you also referred to the tax code, sir. **[02:05:13.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[02:05:14.000] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Where a supposed under declaration in sales of more than 30% gives a prima facie presumption of fraud. Is that correct? **[02:05:22.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[02:05:23.460] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Now, but you are aware, sir, that the National Investigation Division In so far as its audit of the books of accounts and records of the Vice President and Mr. Manases Carpio, has not in any way came up with any findings of fraud? **[02:05:39.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Baka hindi po nila alam yung bank accounts pa. **[02:05:41.860] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Hindi pa nila alam. But are you aware, sir, that the spouses Carpio are being audited by the NID? **[02:05:53.200] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** National Investigation Division? **[02:05:55.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I **[02:05:55.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** think po. **[02:05:55.220] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay, sir. No case for tax evasion or fraud has been filed against the spouses Carpio by the BIR before the DOJ. Are you aware of that? **[02:06:06.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Baka not yet po. **[02:06:07.600] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Not yet. Okay. You're not aware? **[02:06:09.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not aware po. **[02:06:10.260] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. **[02:06:10.600] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** No criminal case for tax evasion or fraud was filed individually against the spouses Carpio before any court in the Philippines. **[02:06:19.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[02:06:20.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[02:06:20.400] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Okay. Finally, you agree with me that it is only the court? Who can affirm or dismiss any finding of tax evasion or fraud? **[02:06:29.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[02:06:30.510] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** And you are not aware of any judgment that was rendered against the spouse of Scorpio for any crime involving tax evasion and fraud, correct? **[02:06:40.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[02:06:41.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[02:06:41.590] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, **[02:06:45.640] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Sir, Your Honor, I think this is a good time to have a lunch break. **[02:06:52.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** It's 12 o'clock. It is a good time. **[02:06:57.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** We shall break for lunch. You've been at it for 2 hours and 1 minute, so you deserve a rest. We shall break for lunch and we shall resume at 1pm. **[02:07:09.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Trial is in recess. **[03:08:03.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Apologies **[03:08:03.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** for the two-minute delay as the Clerk of Court was on his way from his office. **[03:08:14.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly situate Atty. Cabrera to the witness stand. **[03:08:31.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Nakakain kayo, Atty. Cabrera? **[03:08:37.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Presiding Officer, idol ko po si Atty. Ronel. **[03:08:40.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi ka rin kumain? **[03:08:41.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo, natutunan rin po akong intermittent fasting. **[03:08:45.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Good for you. Am, naunawa niyo po na patuloy kayo magiging bagay ng inyong testimonyas ang ayon sa naunan niyong pinanumpaan nung nakaraang biyernes. **[03:08:54.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[03:08:55.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Salamat po. You may continue with your cross when you're ready, Atty. Kristine. **[03:08:59.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, Your Honor. Good afternoon, sir. **[03:09:02.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Good **[03:09:02.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** afternoon, po. **[03:09:02.990] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Just few more questions. **[03:09:06.350] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In **[03:09:06.830] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** your CV, sir, you mentioned several times your professional affiliation with PWC, correct? **[03:09:14.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[03:09:14.840] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you sir. And you retired from PWC in 2025. Correct? **[03:09:22.040] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** PWC was not engaged for the purpose of this investigation. **[03:09:26.920] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** PWC did not review, approve, or authorize your report. Correct? **[03:09:31.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Tama po. **[03:09:33.580] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** PWC did not also authorize your testimony today sir. Thank **[03:09:37.340] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** you. **[03:09:38.380] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** In so far as this case is concerned, You are not authorized to speak on behalf of PWC, correct? **[03:09:44.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[03:09:45.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[03:09:45.630] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** So, when you reference PWC experience in your CV, this court should understand, sir, that your report has no PWC quality control, review, or endorsement. **[03:09:58.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sobrang tama po. **[03:09:59.410] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Thank you, sir. No further questions, Your Honor. **[03:10:06.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Any redirect, Honorable Diokno? **[03:10:10.050] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** No redirect, Your Honor. **[03:10:12.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Chair declares a brief recess so that we can get the list of Senator, Judges. Binigla kasi kami ni Atty. Gracie. Nakala ko hanggang mamaya pa kayo. Hindi ko munahinig. Chair declares a five-minute recess to get the list of the **[03:10:23.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** interjections from Senator, Judges. **[03:11:38.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The first to register to make **[03:11:41.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** is... **[03:11:44.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Forgive **[03:11:49.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** me, **[03:11:53.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the first two registrants aren't here so... Yes, there we go. **[03:12:01.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Second to register is Senator Judge Rafi Tulfo. **[03:12:06.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Prior to him was supposedly Senator Joel, but I think he's indisposed right now. So, the chair recognizes Senator Judge Rafi Tulfo for his interjections. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes when you're ready. **[03:12:32.060] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Mr. Witness, expert kayo pagdating sa taxation. **[03:12:36.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[03:12:38.170] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Now, gusto ko na magkaroon ng konting enlightenment pagdating sa money laundering. Kasi may mga napapanood akong mga documentary na kung saan na-involve yung mga Cosa Nostra, how they laundered money, correct me if I'm wrong. **[03:12:58.060] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Yung kanilang dirty money, ini-invest nila sa isang legitimate business and then nagbabayad sila ng tamang buwis. At bila sila maimbestigahan ng tax evasion because the ultimate goal is to pay taxes. **[03:13:16.200] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Using front yung legitimate business, so when it comes out, malinis na. Am I right? **[03:13:23.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po yan. **[03:13:24.640] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay. Now, anong mga bansa ang alam mo na kung saan high risk sila pagdating sa money laundering? **[03:13:37.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Mga bansa pong... Well, **[03:13:40.420] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** dito, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Tajikistan, South Africa, Ukraine. **[03:13:45.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Philippines po. **[03:13:47.340] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** and Philippines as well. **[03:13:49.130] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Now, **[03:13:50.400] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** let's talk about Cale88. **[03:13:56.160] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** They're supposed to be an importer dun sa mga bansa na nabanggit ko ng mga banana chips. Nag-check pa ko sa Bureau of Customs kung sila ba ay meron mga importation documents dun sa mga bansa na iyon na sila ay nagpalabas ng mga produkto nila and then do they have Yung accounts payable nila, accounts receivable, have you examined them? **[03:14:20.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung sa pangalawang tanong na lang po muna. **[03:14:24.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung **[03:14:24.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa financial statements po kasi ng Cale88, marami po talagang wala po sa tamang hulog po sa financial statement na yun. Wala po siyang payable, wala po siyang receivable. **[03:14:40.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Manufacturer siya o exporter siya ng manufactured goods, wala po siyang **[03:14:45.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Inventory ng raw materials or work in process. At kahit po gaano kalaki po yung perang pumapasok at lumalabas, nananatili po siyang lugi. Maliit lang po yung kanyang property, plant, and equipment. Kung nagpapatol man siya ay wala pong nakalagay na tolling or manufacturing arrangements po sa disclosure niya po sa kanyang notes. **[03:15:16.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Marami pa pong iba eh. Kasi po yung the way po yung ano na nakakaduda po talaga doon, exporter ka para mangyari yung wala kang receivable, abay pag landing ng goods mo doon eh, nakatanggap ka ng cash. **[03:15:33.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron **[03:15:33.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kang supply chain, malalaki yung maliwa o yung mga in-order mo sa supply chain mo. Ang ibig sabihin ay pag tanggap mo ng produkto, parang bumubunot ka ng pitaka mo at binabayaran mo ng cash. So yung nakikita po namin sa Cale88, hindi po tinikling. Tatawagin kong revolving door. Pagpasok po ng pera, lumalabas po. Marami pong pera ang **[03:15:56.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pasok at labas. Yung sa una niyo pong tanong sa customs po, kinanong ko po yun sa prosecution. Pero hindi ko na po nasundan kung ano po yung kasagutan doon dahil gusto nga po kung nga po sanang malaman kung meron talagang tunay na inventory na lumalabas. Pero isa po yun sa mga tinanong ko rin po. **[03:16:21.320] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay, you did mention about manufacturing materials. So, doon sa records ng Cale88, kumikita sila by the hands of millions dahil yun ay nanggagaling doon sa pag... E-export nila ng potato chips o banana chips, excuse me. Tumutugma ba yan doon sa kagamitan na ginagamit nila sa pag-manufacture ng banana chips? Na-investigahan niyo ba kung gaano kalaki itong kumpanyang ito? Yung ba'y bumabanga sa amount na na-manufacture nila at bumabalik na pera versus doon sa electric bills nila, binabayaran nilang utility bills doon sa kumpanya or factory nila na... Pinagagalingan ng Cale88 products. **[03:17:05.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, yung kanila pong cost of sales, parang meron po silang tinatarget na cost of sales para po hindi po masyadong malaki yung income nila. Pero yung ginawa po namin, binangga po namin siya sa mga lima o anim na mga exporter na kumpanya na ganyan po kalaki yung mga meron pong 200 million na annual revenue. Ang nakita po namin dito sa mga kumpanyang ito, malaki po yung kanilang Property Planting Equipment. Masyado pong maliit po yun sa Cale88 kung i-cocompare po. Meron po silang mga, yung iba po may land, pero meron po silang buildings. So wala pong ganun yung Cale88 po or improvements po. Marami po silang inventory on raw materials. **[03:17:54.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi natural po yun kung manufactured po kayo dapat meron kayo laging. Nakaredy na raw materials. Malaki po ang kanilang receivable at malaki po ang kanilang payable. At malalaki po rin yung maganda rin po yung kita nila sa bottom line po sa negosyo nila. So yun po yung kaya po nasabi namin na talaga pong pagka gumamit po kayo ng transfer pricing, well, comparable transactions po. dun nyo po makikita na at comparable po itong mga companies ito kasi po pareho po ng negosyo at exporter po kaya dun nyo po makikita na kakaiba **[03:18:33.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yung Cale88. **[03:18:34.220] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay good. Now sabi nyo po nag-check kayo sa Bureau of Customs so na-check nyo ba yung records ng Cale88? **[03:18:40.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sorry po. I did not. Honorable Senator. **[03:18:43.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sorry sorry sorry. Tinanong ko lang po sa prosecution. **[03:18:45.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Correction. **[03:18:46.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero wala pong malinaw na result po. **[03:18:52.590] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay, siguro I can ask the prosecution, is it okay? **[03:19:01.820] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Sir, nag-check ko ba kayo sa Bureau of Customs para matignan yung amount of exported products nila going to, say, Tasiktan, going to Tajikistan, Lithuania, Kazakhstan, yung amount of product exported versus Amount of money that comes in, bumabangga ho ba? **[03:19:29.800] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Wala na po kaming oras na tingnan po yan. That's really something that I think should be further investigated. Pero hindi na po namin nakuha yung datos na yun. **[03:19:39.460] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Maraming salamat po. Thank you po, Mr. Witness. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[03:19:45.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** We go back to the first registrant, Senator Judge Villanueva. **[03:19:53.130] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[03:19:54.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** For **[03:19:55.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the information of our colleagues, share is giving you a variable period of two minutes, given the importance of the witness. So we'll be a bit flexible as long as you don't do it too much. **[03:20:09.700] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Happy birthday, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[03:20:12.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Apologies to Senator Judge Tulfo. After round two, if you will avail of round two, it applies to you still. Apologies again. Senator Judge Villanueva. **[03:20:25.700] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Senator Lapid wanted more, Mr. President. **[03:20:30.420] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Mr. Witness, before I start, I'd like to say that kayo yung pinaka-interesting na witness na ipinresenta ng prosecution. In fact, I think you're the most important sa pagdinig na ito so far. And your report, it is... **[03:20:51.590] Sen. Joel Villanueva** in-depth study and it is our job to scrutinize and examine itong inyong report to look into your competency and integrity and of course to convince us na tama po itong mga reports na ito. Let me ask some clarificatory questions, Your Honor. Atty. Cabrera, doon po sa Annex A ng BIR reply, ang total net taxable income ay kasama na po yung personal income ng vice president. Combined na po siya sa kanilang mag-asawa. Pero pag tinignan niyo po itong table 23, table 23, ayan po, pina-flash siya screen. **[03:21:35.370] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Mula o 2023 hanggang 2025 mukhang nadagdag muli ang exactong personal income ng respondent. So ang question ko po, hindi po ba ito double counting, your honor, sir? **[03:21:49.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[03:21:52.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** tama po ko ng pagkakaintindi po dyan, ang epekto po ng schedule na yan ay kulang po yung report namin ng 14 million po. **[03:22:03.740] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Exactly. So kung nag **[03:22:05.920] Sen. Joel Villanueva** -double **[03:22:06.260] Sen. Joel Villanueva** po, 14 **[03:22:07.760] Sen. Joel Villanueva** ,369,692 po yung sobrang bilang. **[03:22:14.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Namin po sa declared niya. **[03:22:17.260] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Kasi pag tinignan niyo po ito, itong BIR, taxable income, tsaka yung forensic report, pagka tinignan niyo po yung excess noong 2023, 2024, and 2025, yun ho yung difference eh. So kung wala hong difference, ano pong income item o tax record ang magpapaliwanag sa magkapareho pong halaga? **[03:22:47.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** As a bilang patutuo po dyan, kung ako po ititake ko na lang po yun sa BIR po. Kasi po ay nangyari po yata dito sa report namin, merong compensation, tapos meron pong compensation and business. Mukhang nabilang po namin yung compensation tsaka compensation and business. So parang nagdalawa po yung, **[03:23:14.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasi **[03:23:15.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yung Parang naninimbang po yata yung mga kasama po namin na baka naman nakakatanggap din siya ng compensation. Pero nung inaanalyze ko po parang hindi naman ito makakasama, makakabuti naman ito sa kanila so idagdag na lang natin. So yung pong figure namin eh hindi po nakakasama po yan kay VP Sara. **[03:23:38.340] Sen. Joel Villanueva** That's what I wanted to look into. Despite of this, 2023, 4 million yung Salary sa VP and probably business income, professional income. Pag dinagdag niyo kasi saktong-sakto po yung 14 million. And I wanted to ask this because a repeated addition of the respondent's own income would change the report's comparison. So yun yung tatanong ko po sa inyo. Nakaka-apekto po, bagaano kalaki yung epekto kung ito nga po nasama po? **[03:24:17.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kulang po yung, kung sobra po yung bilang namin, yung 817 po, plus 14 po. **[03:24:27.200] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Plus 14? **[03:24:28.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[03:24:29.430] Sen. Joel Villanueva** But you mean to say, hindi ko nakaka-apekto? **[03:24:33.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede pong magsalita po tungkol **[03:24:36.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** dito. **[03:24:36.180] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Sure, sure, sure. I wanted to understand. As a senator-judge, that's our **[03:24:39.840] Sen. Joel Villanueva** duty. We wanted to make sure na naiintindihan namin na kung meron nga hong ganito, ano ba yung effect nito? **[03:24:47.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So ito po medyo figures po na trinit po namin conservatively in favor po ni VP Sara. Pero yung point lang po kasi sa isang forensic report, at maaaring may makita tayong mga maliliit po na o hindi masyadong natignan to o maliliit po na ganyan. Yung tunay po kasing forensic study, para po yung walang katapusan, para po yung infinite eh. Kasi po pag pinuprove po natin yung hypothesis, meron pong, eto pa lang, sapat na, na-prove na yung hypothesis and kulang din po yung araw namin, okay na, proven na. Pero yung tunay po, huhukayin pa po yan eh. Kasi po, baka meron pa po halimbawa mga Hindi naka-declare na property. Wala po dyan. Hindi po naisama ng mga branches po ng Jollibee o Chowking kung meron man po. Wala pa po dyan. Pero it doesn't affect the effectiveness of the proof of that hypothesis na marami na pong undeclared at marami na pong manifestly disproportionate na po yung property versus her income. So kami naman po dito ay inisip na lang namin na Ay di dagdag mo na lang sa income niyang na-declare. Mabawasan man yung report natin. At least hindi naman tayo, kumbaga eh, we're erring on the side of conservatism po. **[03:26:13.610] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And in this particular slide, hindi ko kasama dyan yung mga inflows, outflows, bank accounts. Hindi ko kasama dyan. **[03:26:23.380] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Kaya **[03:26:24.020] Sen. Joel Villanueva** tinanong ko yun, will it affect the bigger picture? Let me go to another point. Again, I'm just doing my job as a senator judge. **[03:26:34.350] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Sa sarili nyo pong report, parehong corporate income ang pinag-uusapan dito sa wealth table, table 39, at tax table, table 41. Pero magkaiba po yung totals. Just to show you, and again, I just wanted to be clarified on this. Alin po yung tama dito at alin nang sa pananaw po namin bilang mga senator judges, ano po yung dapat naming tignan. Kasi pag tinignan niyo po, if we can show these two tables, table 39 and table 41. You look at 2022, 3,790,000 sa table 41. million, 193. Sa table 23, 70 million, 503, naging 72 million. So, merong 2 million, merong 1 million, may 2 million increase, may 1 million na decrease. And again, ang sa atin lang, we wanted to make sure na yung mismatch po ba dito sa Cale88, Metro, and GenCorp columns, gusto natin maintindihan yung When you talk about a corporate estimate and how it becomes a personal finding po, your honor. **[03:28:01.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ano po yung tanong? Pakilata. **[03:28:04.290] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Gusto **[03:28:04.510] Sen. Joel Villanueva** kong maintindihan, your honor, yung ito nga o, dalawa pero magkaiba po. Table 39 tsaka table 41. Magkaiba po yung 2022 tsaka 2023. Gusto ko malaman at kung po pwede po mailatag po ninyo yung adjustment per year. Lalo na po kung magkaiba pala ang tax base o coverage nito, Your Honor. **[03:28:29.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sige po. Titignan ko po sandali, 39 pa. **[03:28:53.700] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Particularly the two years, 2022 and 2023. **[03:29:00.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tsaka table 41. **[03:29:03.300] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Opo. **[03:29:22.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** May **[03:29:22.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Metro City po doon sa isa. **[03:29:24.490] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Opo. Pali ano po yan eh, Metro City, Cale88, tsaka GenCorp. Na it's supposed to be the same. Pero pagdating yung **[03:29:33.050] Sen. Joel Villanueva** 2022 **[03:29:33.450] Sen. Joel Villanueva** and 2023, **[03:29:34.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nakahiwalay po yung GenCorp. **[03:29:37.330] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Saan po nakahiwalay, sir? **[03:29:38.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi, nakahiwalay pong column yung sa GenCorp. **[03:29:41.070] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Oo, nakahiwalay. **[03:29:41.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[03:29:44.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Undeclared income section. **[03:29:47.220] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Again, just to clarify, if there's an explanation to this, meron po bang... Working paper na sumusuporta **[03:29:56.420] Sen. Joel Villanueva** rin po. **[03:29:56.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ba't magkaibahan mo po? Medyo hindi ko lang po ma-identify. **[03:30:00.000] Sen. Joel Villanueva** The bottom line **[03:30:15.300] Sen. Joel Villanueva** here that I wanted to raise is that will it also affect the bigger picture of your report na maraming hindi ma-explain na pondo na pumapasok **[03:30:32.940] Sen. Joel Villanueva** sa **[03:30:33.640] Sen. Joel Villanueva** mga **[03:30:34.060] Sen. Joel Villanueva** kumpanya. **[03:30:34.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong magbabago po doon sa aking report. At kahit po yung maliit na difference pong yan, I'm sure po marireconcile po namin. **[03:30:44.780] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And **[03:30:45.160] Sen. Joel Villanueva** then lastly, meron po bang dokumento sa inyong ni-review na natanggap po ng mag-asawa ang corporate money? As personal income or proportionate share lamang yung pong ginamit po ninyo? **[03:31:05.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang sinasabi nyo po ba yung pong hindi nakareport sa halimbawa po Cale88 or sa GenCorp Metro City, kung yung hindi nakareport na yun ay nag-flow sa kanila pong individual bank account? **[03:31:20.610] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Sa personal nila, opo. **[03:31:22.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po... Masabi kong nangyari po yun. Pero kung tinatago niyo po, ba't niyo po ipapakita sa kabila? **[03:31:30.630] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Exactly. **[03:31:35.750] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Pero yung corporate money that goes to personal income, meron pong ganon? Or it remains in the corporation? **[03:31:45.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[03:31:46.510] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Yun po yung **[03:31:47.550] Sen. Joel Villanueva** gusto kong maintindihan. **[03:31:48.550] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Naintindihan ko po yung tinatanong niyo. Marami pong outflow yung corporation. At ang problema po, hanggang dito lang po yung nakikita natin eh. Yung papasok po, Hindi po natin alam kung kanino nang galing. Yung palabas po, hindi rin po natin alam kung paano nila ginamit o kanino nila dineposito. **[03:32:10.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So ito po talagang medyo, ito yung comprehensive na forensic na po, ito na po yung pag-build na halimbawa po ng criminal case. Subalit yung aking engagement po sa Senado, ay tignan lamang kung meron bang wealth manifestly disproportionate sa kanilang income. Meron bang evidence ng kanilang business interest? Tama ba yung SALN? At sasabihin ko lang po na kahit hindi po ako naging empleyado ng gobyerno at hindi po nag-file ng SALN, ay gusto ko lamang pong sabihin, ang SALN po ang pinakasimple na balance sheet po. na nakita ko at napaka-awkward po ng SALN. Complicated po yung mga balance sheet na inaaral po na yung SALN po. Asset, personal property. Hindi ko po kailangan maging... Hindi po. Hindi ko po kailangan pumasok po ng gobyerno para maintindihan po yung SALN. **[03:33:03.560] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Last **[03:33:03.920] Sen. Joel Villanueva** na lang po, Mr. Witness. Kung bibigyan po kayo ng pagkakataon na humingi ng dokumento, kasi you never had a chance to talk to the respondents or ask any document from the respondents, what would that be kung hihingin niyo po ito to finally... **[03:33:23.290] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Put the icing on the cake with your extensive report. **[03:33:28.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi, simulan ko na lang po sa kanina po may natanong po sa akin si Atty. Kristine. **[03:33:36.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Alam ko rin ba kung may payable o ano. Kasi puro inflow yung tinignan namin apparently. Hindi naman namin binerify kung may payable. Pero gusto ko lang pong sabihin na wala pong payable dun sa SALN eh. How do you verify something which is not even there? Diba? And kung nga nakuha namin bank accounts, kaya nga po sinasabi ko na sana po eh may sinubmit sila doon sa answer nila sa House o kaya dito po sa Senado. Nang natignan ko po. Kasi kung totoo po yun, ibabawas ko po yun eh. Yun po yung kasunduan ginawa ko po sa Senado. Okay, sige. **[03:34:13.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Probono, sige. Pero walang pwedeng magdikta. Kung ano yung makita ko, yun lang. Huwag niyo akong isisway kaliwa o kanan. Yan lang po yung condition ko dahil ang dali-dali naman po mag-resign eh. Pag kami po yung namilit sa akin, so kung dadalin po, I will be happy to look at it. At kung mali po yung 817, na-aminin ko po. **[03:34:34.610] Sen. Joel Villanueva** So bottom line, you don't need anything to prove na solid itong report po. Maraming salamat po, Mr. Witness. Thank you. **[03:34:44.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo is next followed by Senator Judge Ontiveros. Just so that you can prepare. Senator Judge Erwin, you have a variable period of two minutes as well. **[03:34:58.410] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Maraming salamat po ginong Pangulo, ginong Presiding Officer. **[03:35:08.420] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Susundan ko lang po yung ilang katanungan po ng ating kasamang si Senator Judge Joel Villanueva. Ginong testigo patungkol po doon sa mga ari-ariyan na hindi po na-deklara at pagkatapos nakita kung ano pong gagawin doon. Ika nga suddenly po ay nasili po anong mangyayari doon. Medyo hindi ko po nasundan. Kasi kanina umaga po, ginong testigo, nagsagawa po na isang press conference sa National Bureau of Investigation. Eh kaya nga po ako lumabas kanina at pinapanood ko. At lumabas na rin po sa mga media kanikanina lamang. Ang sinasabi po kasi yung press conference ay patungkol po sa ilang ari-arian ni VP Sara. Gusto ko pong malaman kung itong mga ari-arian po na ito na ipinalabas sa press conference ng NBI at pinalabas sa media, kasama po ba ito sa SALN niya? Ngayon, kung papahintulutan po ako ninyo, ginawang presiding officer, na makita po, ipalabas po itong ari-arian para makita po ng ating testigo. at ma-identify kung ano-ano mga ari-arian na ito. **[03:36:24.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Senator Judge Tulfo. **[03:36:28.700] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Maraming salamat po. So, pwede po bang pakiplay dahil ito po ay napick up namin din sa media ngayong umaga po. **[03:36:55.510] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Sandali lang po. **[03:37:11.990] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** May kasama pong video po yun para ma-identify po ninyo ginaon testigo. Ano po yung sinasabi po ng NBI kanina tsaka media kung tugma po ba kung ito'y kasama po doon sa inyong inaudit na ikangarito po. **[03:37:28.945] Video Playback Narration** ... **[03:37:36.660] Video Playback Narration** Ayan, ito yung isang property. Declined to as agricultural. The value of pag ginunbay n'yo, 900,000 na. But you look at the resort, it's more than 900,000. At walang declaration of impugnance. Can you show other properties na may dito may laki yan? May **[03:37:57.900] Video Playback Narration** dalawang may nakasabi. Ito yung [unclear]. **[03:38:00.480] Video Playback Narration** ... **[03:38:16.170] Video Playback Narration** It's **[03:38:16.870] Video Playback Narration** a [unclear], with [unclear] swimming pool. **[03:38:21.224] Video Playback Narration** ... **[03:38:51.360] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Okay. Kindly advise our tech. Salamat po, ginawang technician. Ginawang testigo. **[03:38:59.290] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Nabanggit po doon na may narinig po akong 200,000 na po ang halaga at mukhang agricultural land po yan. Ito po ba yung nakalagay na land agricultural sa barangay Santo Nino, Balac, Igacos na acquisition cost ay 200,000 po? **[03:39:17.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Honorable Judge Tulpo, pagpasensya nyo na po. Pero hindi po ako makapagbigay ng opinion basta-basta eh. Kailangan ko po makita yung TCT, kailangan ko po makita yung address, yung square meters po kung pareho. **[03:39:34.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron nga pong simpleng property lang po dito nung isang araw po eh hindi po masabi kong yun po yung property pinag-uusapan. **[03:39:44.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po talaga masabi kung kasama po yan o hindi po sa nadeclare po. **[03:39:48.360] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Dalawa po yung ipinakita ko kanina ng NBI at lumabas na rin po sa mga media. Ang tanong ko po, kasama ko kaya ito sa 817 million pesos na undeclared wealth po ng vicepresidente? **[03:40:02.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Honorable Judge Tulpo, again po, sorry po hindi po ko makakapagsalita conclusively on that hanggat ako po ay nakapagdaos po ng investigation po dun po sa mga Titulo po at other documents related po sa property na yan. Kasi po baka isa po yun sa mga property naka-declare. Although kung titignan ko po yung pinakita nyo, mukha naman pong valuable siya. Dahil dalawa po yung swimming pool, ganun po. **[03:40:32.400] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** So ibig niya sabihin ho kung **[03:40:35.500] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Hindi po kayo sigurado kung naisama niyo na sa computation niyo na 870 na undeclared itong mga ipinakita po ng NBI? **[03:40:43.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Hindi po ako sigurado kung nandun po yan. **[03:40:48.640] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Kung bibigyan po kayo ng kopya marahil ng prosecution, I believe, may we ask the prosecution, sir, if you have copies of the TCT, was this included doon po sa ikang... Pag-o-audit ng ating testigo. Ito pong dalawang agricultural land daw po na sinasabi ng NBI sa Davao na mal-resort naman po pero agricultural po yung itura. **[03:41:20.300] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** As I recall, Your Honor, what we have are the copies of the SALNs, the Statements of Assets, Liabilities, and Net Worth. At doon po naka-describe yung iba't ibang mga dineclare na real properties. **[03:41:31.640] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Okay. So you haven't seen this video yet, Mr. Prosecutor? **[03:41:35.780] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** No. **[03:41:36.220] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Ito po ang pinalabas ng NBI. Would you later look into this to check and counter-check kung tama po itong investigation ng NBI? **[03:41:47.300] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Sure. We will do that, Your Honor. **[03:41:49.400] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** That's all for me, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[03:41:52.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** With **[03:41:52.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the indulgence of Senator Judge Erwin, Atty. Cabrera, **[03:41:57.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** sabi niyo po kanina hindi kayo nagpa-file ng SALN, pero nakalagay po kasi sa SALN, acquisition cost. Hindi po nakalagay doon fair market value ng ari-arian. **[03:42:09.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Parang except real property po. Parang kailangan pong i-disclose sa rules yung... **[03:42:15.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I'm the one telling you, since you haven't filed the SALN, I'm already telling you na... Wala pong fair market value, acquisition cost lamang po. **[03:42:23.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, **[03:42:24.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you said you described the SALN as one of the simplest balance sheets. **[03:42:29.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So kung acquisition cost, anumang improvements, technically need not be declared, technically. I'm not aware of any civil service regulation that requires it. So kung hindi dineclare, posibleng kasama yun sa net worth ng isang tao pero hindi nakadeclare sa SALN. **[03:42:49.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[03:42:50.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Would that be correct? **[03:42:51.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[03:42:52.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, basing it on your analysis that the SALN is a balance sheet, is a simple balance sheet, ika nga, na wala masyadong mga detalye. **[03:42:59.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[03:43:00.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay. Next is Senator Jojon Diveros. **[03:43:08.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, ma'am, you have a variable period of two minutes. **[03:43:12.670] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon po, Atty. Cabrera. **[03:43:16.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang hapon po, ma'am. **[03:43:19.770] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Sir, para po malinaw, saan pong mga dokumento niyo ibinase itong report ninyo? **[03:43:31.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasama na rin po yung, well, unang-una po, SALN po. Tapos po yung mga, meron po kaming documents about the properties declared po doon sa SALN. **[03:43:45.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tapos po yun sa mga business interest po, yung mga financial statements po ng corporation. At saka in one instance po sa GenCorp, kasama po yung mga ari-arian ng corporation. In particular po yung mga franchises. Pero may kasama rin po itong sa latter part po, yung AMLA documents in respect po dun sa mga remittances largely from China. na naging basean din po yun. Tapos po yung mga kung kung ano man po yung meron po kami mga insurance policies or mga investment information po, income tax returns, tsaka yung mga financial statements po na nakatouch po doon sa income tax return po. **[03:44:32.380] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Alright, so ito po **[03:44:33.620] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** lahat ng mga official documents na ginamit niyo sa forensic report. Alright, salamat po. So, speaking of the SALNs, sa inyong findings, 817,874,867 ang lumalabas na hindi i-dineklarang yama ni VP Duterte sa kanyang mga SALNs mula 2022 hanggang 2025. **[03:45:00.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[03:45:01.580] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Paano niyo po siniguro na tama itong computation at wala pong na-dobling ibinilang? assets. **[03:45:09.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So yan po yung isa po sa meticulous po namin tinatry na gawin po. **[03:45:17.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[03:45:18.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** paano po namin sinigurado for ice review. Kunti pong gamit ng simple pong software technology sa pag-compare po. Tulad po halimbawa nung sa Cale88 po. Baka po yung bank accounts na pinasukan po ng foreign remittances e pareho nung local bank accounts po na nandito. So sinigurado po namin na magkaibang account po yun. **[03:45:46.860] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** At sigurado po kayo at this **[03:45:48.280] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** point of time magkakaibang **[03:45:49.660] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** accounts po yun? **[03:45:50.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sigurado na po kaming magkaiba yun. **[03:45:52.440] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Okay. **[03:45:54.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So pagka po in case of doubt po at the risk of making an error, in case of doubt po, hindi po namin isasama. Kasi po baka mag-doble, sumobra po yung estimate namin. Ang sabi ko nga po sa aking maliit na team, libaling kulangin, huwag lang sumobra. Parang ganun po yung lagi po namin ginagawa. **[03:46:19.600] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So mas nagiging conservative po kayo kaysa expansive sa pagbilang at pagkuwenta ng mga assets? **[03:46:28.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. Hindi ko lang po alam yung expansive po. **[03:46:34.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi we cannot expand dahil nandun lang po kami sa documents po na hawak namin. **[03:46:40.480] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Or naalala ko po yung nung kinenta niyo yung halaga ng mga Jollibee franchise, may sinabi po kayo sa report na range mula ganitong halaga, 15M po ba yun hanggang ganito? **[03:46:51.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 35 po. **[03:46:52.740] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** To 35. Pero ginamit **[03:46:54.220] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** niyo po yung mas mababang range. **[03:46:56.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, at bagamat hindi nga po kami nakapag-inquire sa Jollibee or gumawa po ng formal communication, marami po kami kilala, ako po marami po ko personally may kilala na may Jollibee store. Kaya alam ko po yung ano nila at ang baba po nung 35 kasi wala pa po dyan yung ano eh. Wala pa po dyan yung working capital requirements eh. At lahat po nang kailangan yung gastos eh para makapagtaguyod ng isang store. Kaya alam ko po yung 35 po ay patas na patas. At yung pong wala pong valuation, hindi po mapapababa ng valuation yung property. Bare minimum po yun eh. Capital po yung dinagdag po namin eh. **[03:47:43.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi **[03:47:43.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kung kukunin niyo po yung valuation, ano po, sige sabihin po natin, okay lang po ba, honorable judge, mag-explain ng konti. **[03:47:52.570] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Nang **[03:47:52.750] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** konti po kasi baka naman maging conservative yung **[03:47:56.190] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** variable **[03:47:56.470] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** 2 minutes **[03:47:57.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Alimbawa po yung, alimbawa po, ang total po ng revenue niya taon-taon, hindi po ito related sa, alimbawa po, total po ng revenue niya taon-taon ay 1 billion. So pagka ginamitan niyo po yan ng cash flow method over a period of 5 years, yung 1 billion na yan easily magdodoble yan o magtitriple yan. **[03:48:16.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero **[03:48:17.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pag ginagdag niyo dyan ng terminal value, yung bang infinite na walang katapusan na, meron pong formula yun, pero yung 3 billion na value niya, baka maging 4.5. Mas malayo po yan ang dihamak sa... amount po ng initial seed capital po nung investment. Kaya gusto ko lang pong maintindihan po ng lahat na hindi po kami salbahe na yun lang po yung ginamit namin dahil hindi po value ng business yung ginamit namin eh. Dahil meron nga pong kinakailangan method or... scientific method po na dapat gamitin po doon. **[03:48:54.290] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** At isa po sa mga scientific methods na binanggit nyo kanina, yung four eyes review, literally apat na mata, literally hindi lamang kayo ang tumitingin kundi may iba pang kasama sa small team **[03:49:04.970] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** nyo. **[03:49:05.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi lang po actually four eyes, mga six eyes po. **[03:49:07.810] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So ito **[03:49:10.050] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** po, ibig pong sabihin, yung ibinilang nyo so far, medyo mahigpit yung confidence nyo na masabi, ito po talaga yung distinct na mga dapat ibilang. Dito sa loob ng distinct na ibilang na asset sa loob ng SALN. **[03:49:27.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Isang example lang po. Limba po yung ending cash balances. Sinigurado po namin na fresh money yun. Kasi baka andun sa ending balance ng first year, tumawid ng second year, we're talking about the same amounts. Pero nakikita po namin na nauubos yun. At papasok po yung bagong pera. At galing po sa bagong pera, doon po may establish yung ending balance. **[03:49:50.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kaya, **[03:49:51.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung baga po yung apat na taon yun, tinignan po namin lahat po na pumasok na pera at lumabas, kayang-kaya pong i-establish po ng fresh money po yung mga ending balances po. **[03:50:03.120] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So sa ganyang mga fresh ending balances, sa ganyang mga distinct na assets, sumika po kayo na walang pagdoble ng pagbilang? **[03:50:12.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[03:50:14.680] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Nabanggit din po kanina na yung cash po ng mag-asawa, **[03:50:19.300] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** eh, **[03:50:20.960] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Posibleng nakalump doon sa other personal property sa SALN. Kung ganyan po yung paliwanag, magtutugma po ba yung pera sa bangko at saka investment accounts doon sa dineklarang other personal properties? **[03:50:36.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, wala pong problema eh kahit nandun po yung cash. Kasi po kung nandun po yung cash, wala po kaming cash na tinanggal doon kumbaga. So sabihin po natin nandun na po yung cash. **[03:50:47.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pag kinompare nyo po doon sa personal properties na nakita namin, meron pong discrepancy, di po ba? So kumbaga, parang kung nandoon yung cash, e di dapat, mas malaki pa yung discrepancy. Pero sa totoo po nyan, classification of assets lang po yan, hindi po yan makaka-apekto ng total po. **[03:51:05.460] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So **[03:51:05.920] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** kung **[03:51:06.120] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** saan mang kategorya inilagay, **[03:51:07.940] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** ang **[03:51:08.660] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** suma total ay magiging Reasonable or expected. Hindi nakakagulat. Wala pong discrepancy na **[03:51:16.940] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** nalabas. Okay **[03:51:17.920] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** po. Sa inyo pong professional opinion pa rin, Atty. Cabrera, bakit po importante na isama sa analysis ng kasong ito yung pera, investments, properties, business interests ng asawa ni VP Duterte? **[03:51:37.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, dahil po yung unang-una po yung requirement po sa SALN ay dapat pong i-file kasama po yung properties po, business interest po ng mag-asawa. **[03:51:50.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, because of absolute community of property, kung ano po yung kitain po ng asawa po ay kita rin po nung may bahay. In this case po, si... BP Sara. So hanggat wala pong prenuptial agreement at kung absolute community po yun, mabubuwag lang po yun ang judicial decree of separation or if not, separation of properties. Pero kung may ganun po, wala rin pong naisubmit sa amin. Kaya po talaga pong magkasama po yung ginawa po namin. **[03:52:25.830] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So dahil sa batas at dahil sa presumption nyo sa property regime na namamagitan sa kanilang dalawa, Ganito po niyo, Quinenta, na isinama po yung kay Atty. Carpio din. **[03:52:38.010] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** At **[03:52:41.150] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** sa batas din po, ano po yung rason kung bakit nga isinasama yung asawa sa SALN declarations at sa pagdetermina ng unexplained wealth? **[03:52:56.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Accountability po, siguro. Yun po yung mahalaga doon. Kasi kung may absolute community of property kayo, kasama po sa accountability na i-declare niyo yung property po ng asawa. Kasi po, ilipat niyo lang po doon, ligtas na po kayo. I-push niyo lang sa kanya. O wala akong property ha, property mo yan lahat. E di ligtas na. So para po magkaroon po ng accountability, pinapakupko po ng batas na i-declare po sa iisang SALN. **[03:53:29.300] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** And actually pag tinitingnan po natin yung definition ng mga salita, accountability ibig sabihin talagang pwedeng ikwenta. So na-account po yung ganitong mga assets sa mga SALN. And then paulit-ulit din po binabanggit sa buong trial halos na may separate personality ang korporasyon sa may-ari nito. So, bakit po dito sa computation ninyo, isinama nyo yung assets ng mga kumpanya sa yaman ng isang VP Duterte? **[03:54:08.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, yung simple ko pong paliwanag nung una pong araw is kung hindi nyo po pinasok sa loob ng korporasyon, ang ibig sabihin ay paghahati-hatihan nyo yun. Pero sinundan po nga ni Honorable Shell ng May legal basis ba yun? Yung legal basis nga po na sinabi ko is piercing the veil of corporate fiction. Alam niyo po sa forensic review, marami pong panginabang ang piercing the veil of corporate fiction. Ginagamit po yan pag nagli-liquidate po ang kumpanya. Pwede bang habulin yung mga may-ari ng kampanyang yun in a liquidation case? Pagka hinahabol po ng manggagawa yung pong kumpanya, Pwede bang i-pierce yung bail para makakolekta sila ng salary kung agency sila halimbawa at hindi sila makakolekta dito sa pinagtatrabaho nila kasi nasa agency sila, pinipierce po yung bail na isa kayo, ganyan. So dito naman po sa atin yung pong substantial under declaration po ang dahilan po ng pag-pierce ng bail. Ito pong pag-pierce ng bail ay Isinasa isang tabi po ang korporasyon pag ginagamit po ang korporasyon sa pang-aabuso. Kasi po yung korporasyon po napakaganda po ng ano eh. Napakaganda po ng nagagawa niyan para sa negosyo. Ang isang tao na may konting kapital ay pwede po magtayo ng maliit na restaurant. Pwede po siya magtayo ng maliit na restaurant. At halimbawa lang po, ang kanya pong investment po doon ay 100,000. Halimbawa lang po. Pagka meron pong nasira ang tiyan at nalason po sa kanyang restaurant, at ang sabi, ang laki ng medical bill ko, ang bill ko umabot ng 5 million. Pagka po sino niya po yung restaurant, hanggang 100,000 lang po yung makukuha niya. **[03:56:16.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Generally, kasi po may corporation, the corporation is only liable to the extent of its assets. Pero pag napatunayan po na ito pong may-ari po ng restaurant, eh sobra pong pabaya. **[03:56:33.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Manok na luma, hinahalo. At mga isda na luma, hinahalo. So, sobra pong pabaya po. Tapos sabi niya, hindi ka na makakulekta sa akin eh. 100,000 lang makakulekta mo **[03:56:46.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa akin kahit na nalason kita. Lasunin man kita, wala kang magagawa. Yung po yung ano, yung po yung inaabuso mo yung korporasyon para maprotectan yung sarili mo. Doon po yung mga pagkakataon na pinipierce po yung veil of corporate fiction po. **[03:57:01.750] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So ito pong pagpierce ng veil of corporate fiction, in a way, paraan din para panatilihin yung orihinal, tamang at... Magandang layunin ng pagkakaroon ng mga korporasyon sa negosyo **[03:57:15.990] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** at pinipigilan **[03:57:17.290] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** yung pang-aabuso nito. **[03:57:18.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So yung pagpinilis po yung bail, para pong walang korporasyon. Tapos yung mga stockholders po doon, para lang po silang group of persons working together. So hindi po papayagan na... Pero depende po sa inyo, honorable judges, kaya tulad nga po na-point out po ng defense na hindi naman conclusive yung aking report ng piercing of the veil. Nasa inyo po yun kung sa tingin niyo po tama po na i-pierce ang veil. **[03:57:48.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nabanggit po earlier yung tax code po, 30%. E ito po, e ano eh. We're talking of 87% under declaration. **[03:57:58.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** for GenCorp 69, for Metro City Chow, more than 50% for Cale88. So much more po than the threshold. **[03:58:07.120] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Nagdodoble o nagtitriple sa threshold ng 30%. And yung pang-aabusong pinipigilan ay alang-alang sa mag-asawa na may absolute community of property. Alang-alang din pala sa mga manggagawa sa usapin ng... Katarungan panlipunan, maaring alang-alang sa kalusugan ng isang customer na food poisoning. Sa inyong mga halimbawa. Salamat po. **[03:58:33.530] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Kailan po pwedeng sabihin na may unexplained wealth ang isang opisyal? Basta po bang may hindi dineklara sa SALN ay unexplained wealth na po yun? **[03:58:46.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron pong marami pong Supreme Court decisions po dyan na binasa ko rin po bago po gawin yung **[03:58:54.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** trabaho pong ito. **[03:58:56.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang nakikita ko po, hindi po yung fact that it was not declared, not that mere fact per se, **[03:59:07.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** but **[03:59:08.550] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** the deliberate concealment of the property. Pero po yung pag sinabi pong deliberate concealment o sinadya po talaga na itago yung property, **[03:59:22.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** para pong **[03:59:24.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Akala niyo po mahirap because it goes into the state of mind. Di po ba na deliberate ba o hindi. **[03:59:30.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero **[03:59:30.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ang sagot po dyan mismo ng batas is it manifestly disproportionate. Kasi pag manifestly disproportionate po, wala na pong usapan sa intent. Halata na po eh. Halatang halata na po eh. Sorry, hindi ko sinasadya. Halata na po. Tapos taon-taon po. Kaya po naging ganyan po yung report po namin. **[03:59:53.450] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So mayroong parang may finding na sadya ito, naitago. Tapos, sobrang halatang anlaki kumpara sa kita and then paulit-ulit over time. **[04:00:08.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:00:08.820] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** O, **[04:00:11.180] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** speaking of concealment, sa inyong assessment pa rin, may mga senyales ba na sadyang itinago itong 817 million pesos plus mula sa batas at mula sa mata ng publiko? **[04:00:27.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung senyales po, nandoon naman po. Gagamitin ko na lang po yung percentage po ng under-declaration or under-reporting kasi nga po yung sinasabi ko na that makes it manifest. That makes it manifestly disproportionate. Tapos po yung mga kumpanya po na hindi po ka panipaniwala yung mga financial statements. Ang lalaki po ng kita, ang liliit po ng capital. Ang lalaki po ng kita, lugi po ang bottom line. Ito po yung mga tell-tale signs na meron pong fraudulent reporting po na nangyayari. **[04:01:03.830] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Alright, **[04:01:05.410] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** salamat po. Ah, pwede nyo rin po bang ipaliwanag yung naririnig natin na modus na either, modus sa manager's check, I mean, either check kiting, tinikling, or yung binanggit nyo kanina lang na revolving door. So, paano po ba yan nangyayari or paano ginagawa? **[04:01:27.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po yung naobserbahan ko lang po dito. Actually, first time ko po nakakita nung ganun po yung manager's check po na labas-pasok po. Pero totoo na po yung sinabi ng defense. Wala po doong pirma si BP Sara doon sa manager's check. Pero yung time deposit po na yung nakapangalan po sa kanya pero wala po siyang pirma. **[04:01:57.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nawala po yung interest doon eh. **[04:02:00.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** O **[04:02:00.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kahit sabihin po natin hindi nakapangalan kay VP Sara, medyo may accountability naman po siya sa bank account because end or po yun. Nawala po yung interest doon sa time deposit at dahil ginawa pong manager's check. So to give up Interest on a large amount like that doesn't really make any business sense. Dahil malaking **[04:02:22.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** interest **[04:02:22.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** din, dahil malaking principal. Kaya di na po kayong magpahinga ng konti ng mga ilang araw dun po sa interest na yun. So yung manager's check po na patawid-tawid, maaari pong hindi natin talaga alam kung ano yung intention nun. Di po ba? Pero the fact po na paulit-ulit po, nagtitinikling po siya sa… Dulo po ng taon. Yun po yung point po namin na it is a concealment method. Pero again, tama naman po yung defense that this is prior to 2022 and yun nga po wala pong perma doon si BP Sara pero that is the behavior of that account. **[04:03:09.750] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** At **[04:03:10.230] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** kaya revolving door naman yung isang image nyo ay dahil parang sa building na labas-masok sa **[04:03:15.390] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** lobby at sa sidewalk. **[04:03:16.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Oo po. **[04:03:17.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yun naman pong yun eh. Simptomas po yun ng money laundering. Again, wala po ito sa report ko at hindi ko po sinasabing may money laundering pong nangyayari dito. Sinasabi ko lang po ay simptomas. Pag ang pera po ay pumasok sa kumpanya, lumabas po the same day o lumabas po the following day. Ang ibig sabihin po nun, it didn't add any value to the company. Parang kontrapelo sa **[04:03:42.280] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** logic ng pagnenegosyo. **[04:03:44.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, parang ginagamit kang pass-through. Parang may mapagpasukan lang na parang kunwari ginagamit sa negosyo kasi pinasok po dun sa kumpanya. Kaya po yung tawag po dun yung revolving door. Pagpasok po, ikot labas. Ganon po yung... ng nangyayari po sa typical money laundering transactions po. **[04:04:09.210] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** And **[04:04:09.670] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** speaking of transactions within one day, meron po kayong nabanggit sa Isang specific date dito sa table 24 sa page 18 na August 6, 2024. Kung kailan nagkaroon ng total cash withdrawals na 41 million pesos in a matter of 1 hour 13 minutes. Unusual po ba ang ganitong klaseng mga transaction? **[04:04:39.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sa ordinaryong tao po, unusual po. 41 million in cash. Kailangan niyo po siyempre ng bag po doon. **[04:04:51.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Parang may hinahabol po eh kasi lahat po ginawa within the hour po. Pwede rin pong i-check yun eh sabi ko nga po. Ba't hindi nilang may managers check at i-deposit sa bank account na iba. Pero pagka po kasi cash, ibig sabihin ayaw po ng trail. **[04:05:13.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So kung wala pong trail, ito po sa amin yung ano eh, mga telltale signs din po sa forensic investigation eh. Pagka po yung mga transactions po kulang sa trail, kulang po sa record, wala pong document evidencing it pero nangyari po yung transaction, yung pong walang document nangyari yung transaction, evidence din po yun eh. Bakit, ba't wala yung document? Bakit wala yung governance? Bakit wala yung mga required corporate and regulatory documents na makakapagsabi kung ano talaga yung mga details ng transaction na yun? **[04:05:59.490] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So bakit **[04:06:01.290] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** walang governance as evidenced by the document trail? May binanggitin po kayong **[04:06:07.990] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Nagmumukhang may hinahabol. Ano yung bakang hinahabol sa ganung klaseng mga transaksyon na ang suma total ay malaking halaga tapos maaaring gawin sa loob lamang ng kulang pa sa dalawang oras? **[04:06:20.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tinignan po kasi namin po din yung mga timestamp. Tapos inaanalyze po namin yung mga timestamp malapit po sa bawat isa. **[04:06:27.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Except **[04:06:28.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yung timestamp po nung huling withdrawal na 12.37 or so. Tapos yung katuloy niya po ay mga alauna 12.23pm tapos 1.17pm. Nag-lunch po muna. **[04:06:45.000] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Nag **[04:06:45.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** -lunch muna tapos kinuha po yung... So yun po kaya sa amin parang may kinahabol kasi right after lunch tuloy yung transaction. Matagal din po kasi magbilang ng 41 million. **[04:06:58.240] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** I guess po. So iniimagine niyo rin pala po kung paano talaga nag-unfold yung events na yun po. **[04:07:02.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ganyan po talaga ang forensic investigation po. **[04:07:05.470] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Yes sir. Huling tanong na lang po. So yung Cale88 ay nakatanggap ng 319 million pesos mula sa China na finlag ng AMLC. **[04:07:18.370] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Lumalabas po ba yan sa audited financial statements? **[04:07:24.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang audited financial statements po kasi ng Cale88, everything po is in pesos. **[04:07:31.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So hindi po namin malaman kung yung dollar po na kinonvert sa Peso. Pero tulad nga po nung nasabi ko po sa inyo kanina, magkaiba po yung bank accounts na peso at yung dollars po. At hindi po namin nakita kung paano po yun na na-convert po. Pero pag in-add nyo naman po yung peso equivalent po nung dollar remittances tsaka po itong local, yun naman po yung ginamit namin to compare po what was declared. **[04:08:04.180] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** So kahit hindi nga po natignan yung dollar transactions, may teorya po ba na pwedeng i-base sa forensic report kung saan naman pumunta yung perang yan, yung 319 million pesos na yan mula sa China? **[04:08:22.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pasensya na po. **[04:08:23.760] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** It's okay po. **[04:08:24.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ma'am, wala po kaming teorya po doon eh. Although... Sa peso account po, meron po mga konting credit memo na yun po, possibly po sigurong galing sa foreign account pero wala rin po kaming katibayan doon. So wala po kong theory po doon, wala po kong pagbabasihan. **[04:08:47.740] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Marami salamat po, Attorney Cabrera. Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[04:08:54.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready. **[04:08:59.630] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Thank you, Mr. Presiding **[04:09:00.850] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Officer. Magandang hapon po sa inyo, Atty. Cabrera. **[04:09:04.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang hapon din po sa inyo, Honorable Judge. **[04:09:06.810] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ay, idadagdag ko lang doon sa unang mga, yung mga tanong ni Sen. Tiveros. Yung August 6, 2024, sabi ninyo, 41 million ang winitdraw sa isang araw at parang may hinahabol. So, ako rin naging curious dito, kaya... Inisip ko ano ba nangyari nung August 6 o kaya thereabouts. Just to place on record, si Vice President Sara Duterte resigned as DepEd Chairperson July 19, 2024 and then on July 30, it's in the news and we can google it because that's what we did, drug charges were filed against attorney Manse Scarpio. Doon sa yung tawag dito. Magnetic lifter. So July 30 yun. So that was the filing was July 30 and then six days later nangyari ito. Kaninong account pala itong 6 August 2021? **[04:10:20.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pareho po kay Atty. Man Scarpio po. **[04:10:23.290] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Both kay Atty. Mans Carpio. Just for the record. Doon naman sa report po ninyo, nabanggit nyo yung safety deposit box or vault? Do you remember that? **[04:10:35.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, **[04:10:36.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** wala rin naman pong kahinatnan. Hindi ko po alam kung anong laman doon po. Yes, yes. So, nirecord lang po namin doon na klinose na po yun. **[04:10:45.220] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yes, pero that was safety deposit box 27, 28, 29, and 30. Open on October 11. but all boxes were closed on January 7, 2025. Sa araw. **[04:10:59.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:11:02.300] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Hypothetically, and based on your professional experience, anong nilalagay sa safety deposit box? **[04:11:07.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Mahalagang bagay po. Valuable things po. **[04:11:10.500] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tulad ng? **[04:11:12.490] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Hindi dito sa kasong to, no? Because you wouldn't know. Pero based **[04:11:15.750] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** on your... **[04:11:16.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Jewelry po. Mga mahalagang jewelry po ng family. Mahalagang dokumento po. **[04:11:21.190] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Mga dokumento? **[04:11:22.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. Paminsan-minsan po. Even very sentimental things po. Nandun po. **[04:11:26.650] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Pera, nilalagay din sa safety. **[04:11:28.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Of course po. Opo. Pero may banko naman po. Ba't kailangan pa ng safety deposit box? Meron naman pong mga... Malaman po yun na valuable properties, not money. Kung ako po yung tatanungin. **[04:11:42.550] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Pero pwedeng pera. **[04:11:43.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede rin po. **[04:11:46.690] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Pwedeng cash. **[04:11:49.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Theoretically po, pwede po. Opo. **[04:11:52.260] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So yun lang, no? Kasi nabanggit nyo, no? Lahat sinara sa isang araw. That just gives us pause to think, no? Manager's checks ba nilalagay din sa... Doon naman sa manager's checks, nabanggit na naman kanina, no? Usual ba yun na you issue the manager's check to yourself and then you do it 12 times in a period of... Three years? I mean, again, have you encountered that practice? **[04:12:30.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, honestly po, first time ko pong nakita po yun. **[04:12:33.720] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Kasi yun, hindi ba usually pag manager's check, babayaran mo yung binili mo lupa, so yung pinagbilihan mo, yung seller, sa kanya naka-issue yung manager's check. **[04:12:45.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Alam niyo po itong manager's check po na lumalabas po at the end of the year. para po hindi po mahuli yung cash at hindi magkaroon ng discrepancy sa SALN. Hindi po siya effective eh. **[04:13:00.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi **[04:13:00.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po pagka nilabas niyo yung manager's check, ang ibig sabihin po nun, yung bangko ay may utang sa inyo. **[04:13:06.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So **[04:13:06.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kung may utang sa inyo yung bangko, meron kang receivable. **[04:13:09.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ibig sabihin, **[04:13:10.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** dapat naka-declare po yung receivables sa SALN. So kung hindi po cash ang naka-declare doon, dapat po i-receivable. Kaya hindi po effective eh yung paglabas-pasok po na yun. **[04:13:20.970] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** In other words, **[04:13:23.730] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** kasama pa rin sa declaration ng iyong net worth, yung receivables. **[04:13:27.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dapat po. Receivable niyo po yun eh. May pruweba po noon dahil nakapangalan po sa inyo yun eh. **[04:13:33.590] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So naka-declare ba yung receivables doon sa SALN sa pag-aaral ninyo? **[04:13:38.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** May mga nadaanan po. Siyempre wala po. Yun nga po yung point nung paglabas. Kaya wala pong receivable po. **[04:13:44.430] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Kasi **[04:13:44.650] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 95, ano? 96 **[04:13:47.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[04:13:48.250] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 96 million. **[04:13:49.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 41 tsaka 55 po. **[04:13:50.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[04:13:50.750] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** you're saying dapat yung 96 million na yun na managers check, dapat nakareflect sa SALN ng receivables na 96 million. **[04:14:00.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Kasi po yung SALN po as at. So yung as at po certain date, wala po yung cash. **[04:14:07.910] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Pero **[04:14:08.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung sa as at po na yun na December 31, meron pong receivable. **[04:14:13.600] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Punta tayo doon sa Cal88. **[04:14:18.440] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Dahil yung kanyang audited financial statement at as of 2025 ng Cal88, hindi na shareholder si Manse Scorpio, tama? **[04:14:30.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Ay, hindi po. Hindi po. Siya pa rin po. Sa treatment po namin, siya pa rin po. **[04:14:37.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Sorry, sa SALN niya, hindi na siya shareholder ng... **[04:14:42.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Noong 2025 po dahil din-expose niya po sa Pikimong-Pikimong. **[04:14:46.230] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Diba nakalagay na nailipat sa Pikimong-Pikimong. **[04:14:50.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At **[04:14:50.810] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** ang Pikimong-Pikimong naging 95% pag-aari ang Cale88. **[04:14:59.550] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Doon sa records, pinag-aaralan ba niyo yung records ng... **[04:15:03.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, **[04:15:04.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** meron po kaming ano, kinuha po namin yung SEC papers po ng Pikimong-Pikimong, isang public document naman po. **[04:15:14.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At **[04:15:15.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ang nakita po namin doon, yung Pikimong-Pikimong po, dalawa lang po yung shareholder at it is actually a shell company. Noong 2024, ang kanyang equity ay 56,000 pesos only. **[04:15:30.620] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ano **[04:15:30.720] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** ibig sabihin ng equity para sa ating mga kababayan? **[04:15:34.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, yun pong capital. **[04:15:36.220] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yun yung perang pinasok? **[04:15:38.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Perang pinasok po. Tapos nung ano naman po, nung 2025, nakalagay po sa GIS, ang kanya pong assets, kasi po wala pong financial statements, ang kanya pong assets ay 86,000 pesos po. Wala pong transaction. Wala pong kahit anong transaction. Wala pong... Wala pong disclosure kahit ano po. **[04:15:59.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So **[04:15:59.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi po niya binili. Wala pong binili. Kung nilipat man po nila, nag-usap sila, wala pong record po na pinagre-reflectan. So kaya po namin kinuha na lang po, tinik na lang po na natiling property po yun ni Atty. Man Scarpio. Dahil kung walang record yung paglipat mo, walang car. Sabihin natin naglipat ka ng private eh wala namang evidence na naglipat ka. Siyempre mananaig po yung official records po na siya po po yung may-ari. **[04:16:33.150] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So ang equity ay? **[04:16:35.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 56 po yung assets, tapos **[04:16:39.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 86 po yung pangalawa. **[04:16:40.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 86,000 pero base doon sa mga transaction ng Cale88 inflows magkano? **[04:16:49.990] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Would you **[04:16:50.750] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** recall? **[04:16:51.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, malaki po yung, meron pong year na malaki pero kung magbabasihan nyo lang po yung 300 plus million per year. **[04:17:02.700] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So doon pa lang, 300 plus million per year tapos binili ng isang kumpanyang Pikimong-Pikimong na 58,000 ang equity at 86,000 the following year. Medyo red flags na yon, di ba? **[04:17:18.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, hindi po siya 300 plus million per year. Parang meron pong umabot ng ganong under declaration po over the several years. **[04:17:30.050] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** At yung **[04:17:30.110] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Cale88, yun din pumasok yung Chinese money, di ba? **[04:17:34.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, dun din po. **[04:17:35.150] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 319 million. So, dun magtataka ka talaga na yung isang 68. 58,000 equity and then the following year 86,000 ang paid. **[04:17:47.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Honorable Judge, hindi po 319 million po ang bilang po namin sa report? **[04:17:52.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ah yes, that's right. **[04:17:54.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 222 **[04:17:54.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** lang po. **[04:17:55.130] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** AMLA records pala yung 319. Thank you for that correction. **[04:18:00.250] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** May tanong ako sa AMLA records, pinag-aralan din ninyo. **[04:18:03.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ay, opo. **[04:18:04.810] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. At doon, may mga lumalabas nga na yung dollar remittances, hindi ba? **[04:18:11.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[04:18:12.920] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Meron bang pagbabangga ng peso accounts kung saan ay may mga nilipat sa dollar accounts sa AMLA records? **[04:18:26.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Parang wala po kaming napansin po ganun eh. **[04:18:29.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Galing **[04:18:30.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po sa peso nila, nilipat po sa dollar. **[04:18:32.130] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yes, yes. Alas din rito sa... **[04:18:35.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Parang wala po kami nakita. **[04:18:37.980] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay, thank **[04:18:38.360] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** you. **[04:18:41.140] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yung sa GenCorp, ito rin sinabi ninyo sa report ninyo, katakataka, nasa 2021, 28 million ang kanilang... Tama ba yan? 28 million... Una-una, 1.25 million ang paid up capital ng GenCorp. Tama **[04:18:58.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Yan po tama po yan. **[04:18:59.780] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tapos in 2021, alin yung figure na 28 million? At lumobo ng 520 million. Anong figure ito? Nabanggit niyo sa report niyo yun eh. Sorry. **[04:19:19.730] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Genco. Genco. Sorry. Let me check my... Ayun. **[04:19:25.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sige po. Baka ma-refresh po ako pag nasabi niyo po. **[04:19:28.960] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Total **[04:19:29.000] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** identified bank inflows from period 2022 to 2025. **[04:19:37.880] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Pagka. Hindi pala yun. **[04:19:44.810] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Revenue. **[04:19:47.340] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Page 31 pala sa dami ng page. **[04:19:52.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala **[04:19:53.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pong page 31. Wala pong table of contents. **[04:19:57.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Page 31, GenCorp grew from a business generating approximately 28 million of revenue in 2021 to more than 520 million by 2025. Tama? That's on page 31 of your report. **[04:20:12.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[04:20:14.410] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** During the same period, it acquired approximately 150 million of property and equipment while continuing to purchase inventory and fund day-to-day operations. **[04:20:26.860] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Despite the scale of this growth, sabi niyo, the company reported only 1.25 million of paid-in capital. Tama? **[04:20:36.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[04:20:37.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[04:20:37.380] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Para sa ating mga kababayan, ano yung 1.25 million paid-in capital? **[04:20:41.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Cash po na... **[04:20:43.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yung **[04:20:44.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Investment po sa kumpanya po. **[04:20:46.800] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So bakit mahalaga yun na maliit at malaki naman ang kanilang revenue? At yung 150 million na mga bentahan. **[04:20:58.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo kasi **[04:20:58.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung revenue po na malaki hindi nyo po yan makukuha sa maliit na asset. Opo ay sobrang galing na negosyo ng 1 million tapos ganun po kalaki yung 520 po yung na-degenerate niyang revenue. So ito po yung nanggaling po sa mga several **[04:21:12.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Jollibee stores. At kailangan po mag-invest dito po sa Jollibee stores. Isa nga lang po ay 35, di po ba? So, yung isang Jollibee store lang po, hindi po kaya ng 1.2 na capital po. **[04:21:28.520] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. **[04:21:29.380] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** But the financial statements do not clearly explain where the money came from. **[04:21:37.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So kung it does not clearly explain where the money came from, in your expert opinion, Saan galing yung pera? **[04:21:49.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Hypothetically. **[04:21:50.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Cannot explain po. **[04:21:51.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I cannot **[04:21:52.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** explain po where the money came from. Wala po talaga ako idea kung saan po nang galing yung pera. Pasensya na po. Manguhula po ako pagka sinagot ko po yan eh. **[04:22:01.410] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, katakataka. Maaring inutang? Sabihin, inutang. **[04:22:07.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** It came from, certainly came from the shareholders or from someone else. Maaring... **[04:22:15.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** basta hindi po from operations, yan po ang kaya ko po sabihin. **[04:22:19.200] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Hindi from operations. **[04:22:21.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pagka ganun po kalaki yung, disproportionate po eh. **[04:22:27.490] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ito naman, yung pattern that funds are introduced into and subsequently withdrawn from the entity with minimal economic value added. In these circumstances, revenue and cash flows may appear substantial. Yet the corporation retains only a nominal margin inconsistent with the scale of transactions. That's your second paragraph of page 31. Sa man on the street, sa ordinaryong mamamayan, can you explain it in layman's terms? Anong ibig sabihin ng **[04:23:02.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** paragraph niya? **[04:23:03.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So pag magpapasok ka ng pera sa kumpanya, investment man po o inutang, ang ibig sabihin nun eh, kailangan mo yung pera. Bibili ka ng equipment, bibili ka ng inventory, ipangbabayad mo sa empleyado mo o sa mga pinagkakautangan mo. So ito pong pera na pumapasok at lumalabas at mga several po yan para pong wala pong naitutulong yung perang pumasok sa negosyo po. **[04:23:36.560] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay, okay, okay. Teka nakalimutan ko lang doon sa piki mong Kasi nung isang araw, yung testigo ng BIR tinanong tungkol sa hindi fully paid yung subscription ni Mr. Mances Carpio. At dahil hindi fully paid, tama ba bilang accountant at abogado and corporate law, walang na-issue na shares. At pag walang issued shares, hindi maililipat. **[04:24:11.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So yung BR po, ginagawa po nilang subscription pa lang eh, taxable na. Pero meron po siyang legal basis eh. **[04:24:18.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi **[04:24:18.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** titignan niyo po, definition of shares of stocks sa tax code. So yung definition po ng shares of stocks sa tax code, kasama na po doon ngayon ang warrants and options. **[04:24:29.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So **[04:24:29.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung warrants and options, wala pa pong binibiling shares of stocks dyan. Parang meron pa lang kayong right na bumili. **[04:24:36.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[04:24:36.690] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung right pa lang ng pagbili ng shares of stocks, ay subject na. **[04:24:42.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Considered na na sale of shares of stocks. Yun pa kayang subscription agreement na meron na talagang nagsimulang sale. So yun lang po yung masasabi ko doon na medyo may tama po yung BIR sa treatment po nila doon. **[04:24:54.610] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. Pero from the point of view of I think yung questions ng defense, sinasabing pagka hindi pa fully paid, hindi pwedeng ilipat. **[04:25:06.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At tama naman po yun. **[04:25:07.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kailangan **[04:25:08.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yung iba naman po yung ownership. **[04:25:10.490] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So kung **[04:25:10.610] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** hindi **[04:25:10.810] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** pwedeng ilipat, yung paglipat sa PIKIMON, legal ba yun? Kung hindi pwedeng ilipat? **[04:25:17.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Lalo pong it will only prove the point na hindi po kalipat-lipat. Di po ba? Kasi kung hindi pa nga po bayad, tama lang pong manatili dito muna sa SALN. **[04:25:30.390] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** In **[04:25:30.730] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** other words, questionable yung paglipat sa PIKIMON-PIKIMON. Kasi nga, **[04:25:37.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not **[04:25:37.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** for that reason po eh. Yung wala po kasi talaga ako nakikita ng transaction. Well, **[04:25:42.560] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** in addition, di ba? Kung **[04:25:44.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi **[04:25:44.560] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** paid up, yun yung argumento, paano mo ililipat sa PIKI mong hindi pa pala fully paid yung subscriptions? **[04:25:50.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung title po. Lalong hindi malilipat yung title. **[04:25:52.800] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yes, **[04:25:53.100] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** yung title. Okay. **[04:25:55.540] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, yun. **[04:26:02.740] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, meron pa akong ilang mga katanungan. Oh! Sabi niyo kanina, may mga cash deposits. Did you mean cash and check deposits or just cash? **[04:26:20.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron din pong check deposits po. **[04:26:22.140] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** No, but you said earlier or yesterday, they were deposits in cash. That was your exact word to describe one of the transactions. **[04:26:31.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ano pong transaction po? **[04:26:33.200] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** I forget, but my point actually is... Meron ba kayong inventory? Ano yung mga cash deposits? Tsaka ano yung mga hindi cash deposits? **[04:26:44.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede po natin ipagawa po. Kaya po namin gawin. Pero wala po kaming inventory po ng halimbawa po yung inflow. **[04:26:51.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[04:26:51.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** cash deposit po siya o deposit po siya by check. Pwede naman po natin ihiwalay po yun. **[04:26:57.270] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ang meron kayo, yung 41 million pesos withdrawal, cash lang **[04:27:01.190] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** po yung lahat. **[04:27:01.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pay to cash po yung ano. 23 million po na dalawang cheque po. **[04:27:07.510] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Pero **[04:27:07.610] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** yung apat, cash ang winidraw. So totaling 41. So it would be interesting if you have the time to do it, to submit to us, yung ihiwalay yung cash dun sa check deposits para lang malaman, magkano bang umiikot dito sa kahit na doon sa **[04:27:30.780] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Punto lang na yun. So, we have an understanding. And then, dito sa bumagsak ng 80 million, ah, 80 million cash, naging 2020, bumaba sa 60, bumaba sa 24, umangat ng 43. That was also in your report. Pasensya na, medyo sa dami nung... Would you remember that? Ah, ito. Can we... Flash this on the screen. **[04:28:03.230] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** This is your table, I think. I put this together based on your information. So, various banks, spouses, 2022, 60,214,700,000. You confirmed that, no? **[04:28:21.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:28:22.210] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. **[04:28:23.190] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tapos, tumangat, tumaas ng additional 20,000,000 noong 2023. Diba? Ending. Tama? **[04:28:31.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama pa. **[04:28:32.650] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tapos bumagsak ng 23 million noong 2024 na minus 60 million, almost. Tama? **[04:28:43.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama pa. **[04:28:44.020] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** And **[04:28:44.420] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** yun siguro yung isa dun yung 41 million na tinanggal. **[04:28:48.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yan po yung ano, malaking factor po yung ano, yung naglimas po ng pera yung 41 million. 41 **[04:28:53.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** million **[04:28:54.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yun. Tama po yun. **[04:28:55.580] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So that might explain it kasi August 6, 2024 yun, **[04:28:59.240] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** tinanggal yung 41 **[04:29:01.100] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** million cash. Kaya pagdating ng end of 2024, 23 million. I **[04:29:05.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** agree po. Napansin ko rin po yan. **[04:29:07.520] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. And then finally, 2025, cash balance ending, umangat na naman. Another 20 million. But all of that, as you have said, hindi reflected dun sa kanilang audited financial statements as well as sa SALN. **[04:29:24.400] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Correct? **[04:29:25.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po reflected sa SALN po. **[04:29:27.040] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yes. Okay. **[04:29:30.450] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** I have no other questions at this point, Mr. **[04:29:35.510] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** President Officer. Maraming **[04:29:37.170] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** salamat po. **[04:29:37.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. Senator Judge Lacson is next. **[04:29:44.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You **[04:29:44.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** may proceed when you're ready, sir. Again, you have a variable period of two minutes. **[04:29:48.760] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Thank you, Mr. President Officer. Magandang tanghali po, Atty. Alex. **[04:29:52.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang tanghali din po. **[04:29:53.580] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Ang aking pagtatanong ay babase ko sa aking ginawang pakikinig at saka observation doon sa... Direct examination last Friday at saka yung cross na nangyari kaninang umaga at ngayong tanghali rin. Sa inyong ginawang pagsusuri, sa inyong findings and conclusions sa inyong forensic report, anong bahagdan o percentage ng reliance ninyo sa analytical assumptions versus direct or indirect references to documents? **[04:30:26.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Napakahirap na tanong **[04:30:27.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[04:30:27.380] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** 0 to 100, 25 to 75, 50-50. Curious lang po. **[04:30:33.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Malaki po yung supported po ng documents po halos lahat. At ang talaga pong masasabi ko po na talagang hindi po masyadong malinaw na supported ng documents tulad din po ng nasabi ng defense, yung GenCorp po. Kasi ito pong GenCorp, hindi po natin kaya ditong i-take in isolation po yung mga related documents po. Kailangan po nating pagsamasamahin at gumawa po ng conclusion. Pero mahirap pong sagutin yung percentage wise po kasi po bawat aspeto po meron pong document at meron pong analysis po na ginagawa po namin. **[04:31:21.940] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Overall po, estimate lang. Palagi ko naman may knowledge kayo o naririgol nyo pa kung ano yung percentage na nilaan ninyo sa inyong report patungkol sa inyong analytical assumption versus yung mga dokumento. **[04:31:38.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I see. The dirty work and the analysis. Ayan po. Pwede po yan. **[04:31:50.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 50-50 po. Pero mga 60-40 po. 40 po yung puro analysis po. **[04:31:56.990] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** 40% yung naka-base o naka-refer. **[04:31:59.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang ibig ko po sabihin, 60% po ng oras eh nagkakalkal ka tapos parang nag-a-analyze ka ng 40% of the time. **[04:32:10.110] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Hindi po. Ang hirap po **[04:32:11.830] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** nastanong. Analytical assumption versus reference to documents. Whether direct or indirect references or reference to documents. Gusto ko lang pong makita yung yung naging frame of mind ninyo. When you finished or crafted your forensic report? **[04:32:37.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi po yung ano, kaya hindi po nyo maka-craft ng ganun po sa simula. Wala po kasi kayong prejudgment na hindi po predetermined yung ano eh. Na ito gagamitin ko dito, 40, ito. Hindi ko po malaman kung ano po yung makikita ko eh. Minsan po matulin kasi may document, minsan po. Wala pong document, medyo nagde-dead wall pero i-derive niyo po yung information or conclusion niyo dun po sa mga ibang related documents po. Asensya na po, Honorable Justice. **[04:33:09.720] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Sabi nga **[04:33:10.380] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** ni Atty. Christine, I can accept that. **[04:33:12.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sige po, salamat po. **[04:33:15.050] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Namaget niyo po sa tugon ninyo sa tanong ni Atty. Christine kanina na yung absence ng documents, evidentiary ninyo, medyo... Nilaro po sa aking isip na parang double H eh. Pag sinabi niyo yung absence of documents, ebidensya rin ninyo, ebidensya nyo pabor o adverse sa respondent? **[04:33:42.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po siya evidence kung ano po yung nakasaad sa dokumento pero evidence po siya ng behavior. **[04:33:52.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So doon yung po, **[04:33:54.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Bakit wala yun? Basic lang yun. Halimbawa po, **[04:33:58.710] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Ito isang halimbawa kasi alam nyo nagsaliksik din kami sa sarili namin pero binasin namin doon sa mga exhibits yung mga nasumite at nasa pag-aari na ng korte na hindi nyo naisama o maaaring na-overlook ninyo o maaaring hindi nyo na kailangan sa inyong pag-analisa. Halimbawa, hindi ko na po iyahayag yung aming ginawang pagsaliksik at yung naging conclusion namin kung ito'y pabor ba o adverse or respondent. para ma-preserve lang yung impartiality o integrity at impartiality ng Korte. Sasarilingin ko na lang po yun sa paggawa ng aking desisyon, sa akin na lang po yun. Napakarami pong mga cheque. Napakarami na hindi naman nasama sa inyong report na ang mga payees ay mga personalidad na nung aming pinagtagni-tagni sa simpleng Facebook search lang, magkakaroon kayo ng konklusyon. **[04:34:58.000] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** So, napakarami po. At ang bawat cheque, mga six figures, six digits. Na pagka sino matotal nyo, abot talaga siya ng seven digits yung halaga. Pero wala po doon sa inyong report. Pero sinasabi ko lang po dahil hindi kami lumabas doon sa mga exhibits na naisubmite ng prosecution. At hindi ko alam kung iba galing sa defense. **[04:35:28.980] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Anyway, ito ho ba'y sadya? Dahil sa inyong sound judgment, sapat na sa inyong pagsusuri ang umabot sa inyo o kung umabot man natin ninyo na tinignan dahil sa sound judgment ninyo, tama na para makapaggawa kayo ng conclusion sa inyong forensic report? **[04:35:48.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, tulad nga po nung nasabi ko po kanina, ito po kasing forensic examination, pag nakapag-establish ka na, Pwede ka nang tumigil eh. Pero kung gusto halimbawa ng client, halimbawa po ang Senado, or prosecution halimbawa, na palawakin pa yung report, eh magpatuloy lang silang mag-submit ng documents at aming titignan para po mapalawak po yung base data po nung report. Pero doon pa lamang po sa nakita namin ay Sapat na po yung nakita namin para po masabing yun po lamang yung nakita namin, 817 million, dahil yun lang po yung nakita namin based on data and using a conservative approach po. **[04:36:37.740] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Sabi ko na nga, hindi ko na ipagbibigay alam sa aking mga kasamahan kasi pagka sinabi natin payees, pwedeng pabor sa respondent, pwede rin adverse. Kasi kung ito'y pabor dahil Bawas talaga ito sa kanilang naging gastos nila sa legal na pamamaraan. Ibig sabihin, pabor sa respondent. Pero sabi ko nga sa akin na lang yun. **[04:37:00.220] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Panghuli po, gusto ko lang banggitin na yung una nating pagtatagpo, at least sa aking mga staff, nung kayo'y **[04:37:07.840] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** pinadala ng Pricewater ng PWC para mag-voluntaryo ng inyong servisyo sa Yolanda. Nung ako po'y head ng OPAR, **[04:37:19.510] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Kasunod ng McKinsey, kayo po pinadala para tumulong sana sa audit ng mga PAPs, projects, activities, at saka **[04:37:27.630] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** mga **[04:37:27.810] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** plans. **[04:37:28.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ako po ang nagpadala po sa sarili ko po doon. **[04:37:31.730] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Pero ang kumontak po sa amin, ginamit ko lang po yung price water, pero hindi po mismo yung price water. **[04:37:39.250] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Kasi **[04:37:39.770] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** yun po yung aming presentasyon. **[04:37:41.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero tama po kayo. **[04:37:45.270] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Maraming salamat po at pro bono rin po yun sa kaalaman ng ating mga nanonood. **[04:37:50.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Siyempre naman po. **[04:37:52.700] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Sayang nga lang po nabiten kasi wala akong implementation authority so naputol din yung ating engagement. Ibabahagi ko lang na nawala yung kanyang Mont Blanc habang nagipag-meeting. Nataranta po kami lahat dahil nakakahiya naman, nag-voluntaryo na walang pa ng Mont Blanc na pen. Yun pala nadala ng kasama nyo. Maraming salamat po. **[04:38:13.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang talas ng memo. **[04:38:19.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Titigil niyo na po yung kwento niyo pagkatapos nakita sa ilalim ng kama. For the information of the senator judges, the senator judges can base their decision on the evidence, both testimonial and documentary. Insofar as documentary evidence is concerned, whatever the court admits after formal offer has been made. And it will be up to each senator judge. Which parts or aspects of the testimonial or documentary evidence they will be basing their decisions on once the final question is raised before them? Yes, Senator Judge Lacson. **[04:38:54.440] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Just to clarify, Mr. Presiding Officer, whether or not taken up during the trial. Whether **[04:39:00.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** or not taken up by the testimony of a witness. Thank you. **[04:39:04.340] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Thank you. **[04:39:04.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** As long as it is part of the formal offer and duly admitted by the court. And we thank Senator Lacson. for his discretion insofar as limiting his and not mentioning any names that he got based on the evidence and record that his team researched on. Senator Judge Lapid is recognized. **[04:39:27.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. **[04:39:29.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Alex, ganyang kakahalagang natestigo ah. **[04:39:34.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Lapid is recognized. You have a variable period of two minutes as well, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. **[04:39:39.800] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Maraming salamat po sa ating officer. Para po sa prosecution, para may tanong ko lang po. Tungkol po dito sa Article 2, marami na po tayong iba't ibang naging witness galing sa AMLA, sa Banko, sa BIR, at ang ating magaling na financial analyst. Marami na po kayong nabanggit na iba't ibang numero at mga batas at regulasyon at pamantayan. Sa simpleng tanong po. **[04:40:15.600] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** May pananaw ba kayo ng prostitution? At dapat mapansin, makuha, at maintindihan ng ating mga babayan mula sa napakaraming witness at dokumento na ipinakita ninyo sa amin. **[04:40:34.100] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Maraming maraming salamat po, Your Honor. Actually, nakakalula nga po yung mga numero at yung mga dokumento na nahiharap po namin sa Article 2. Ako po mismo, Kaya nga po ako nag-abogado dahil takot ako sa numbers. Pero pag titignan po natin kasi kung ano ba talaga yung pinakapuso ng Article 2. Sa tingin ko, ito lang po yun eh. Yung malinis na opisyal, walang tinatago. Ngayon, madali po kasing magpanggap ang isang opisyal na simpleng tao lang siya, kumakain lang sa karinderiya. Malinis, wala naman na tinatago sa SALN. Pero pagdating po sa issue ng Article 2 Unexplained Wealth, doon po tayo nagkakaalaman. Dahil ang titignan po dito ay hindi naman po mga testigo, kundi mismo yung mga dokumento at yung mga numero. Katulad po na nabanggit ni Atty. Cabrera, ang tinignan niya ay mismong mga bank records, mga records na galing sa AMLA. BIR records, SEC records and I believe may kasabihan po kasi ang mga accountant that the numbers do not lie. Ito pong mga bank documents for example ay hindi naman po dumaan sa kamay ng prosecution yan. Yan ay diniretso ng mga bangko dito po mismo sa hukumang ito. Kaya masasabi natin na they are independent facts verifiable by anybody. At the end of the day, sir, ang paniwala ko kasi ganito eh. This case is really not about VP Sarah Duterte as a person. To me, it's about the trust that the people reposed in her. Yung tiwala po na binigay ng sambayan ng Pilipino sa kanya. Para sa akin po, it's really not about her as a person. It's about leadership kung tama ba. Ang pamamahala at lalong lalo na yung katampatan o yung fitness ng isang mataas na opisyal na manungkulan pa. At pangatlo po, it's not about her as a person, it's really about accountability. At kapag kung ikaw ba'y binigyan ng kapangyarihan, lalong lalo na kung pangalawang pangulo ka at lumalabas na inabuso mo, ay dapat may pananagutan. Sana po nakatulong po sa inyo yung sagot. **[04:43:09.080] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Marami salamat po sa paliwanag kasi tinatanong lang mga taong bayan tungkol yan. Marami salamat po. **[04:43:19.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge... Senator Judge Aquino is recognized. You may proceed sir. Ngayon wala nang pwedeng gumamit na pinapatanong ni Sen. Lito ha. Hindi na pwedeng gamitin yun. **[04:43:39.550] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Maraming salamat, Mr. **[04:43:40.690] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** President. **[04:43:40.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Aquino is recognized. **[04:43:42.610] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Yes. Magandang araw, Atty. Alex. **[04:43:45.790] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So I **[04:43:47.110] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** want to focus on Table 39 sa ating report. Ito naman yung main table na nabuo po ninyo. Tama po, no? **[04:43:56.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:43:57.410] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** This is the reference table. And may I request one of the lawyers to provide a calculator to Atty. Alex in case na kailanganin niya. Kahit sa telepono. Para lang handa siya. Okay, so we'll flash table 39 on the screen. **[04:44:14.790] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Huwag niyo daw po tingnan yung ibang mensahe ni attorney, baka kung ano makita daw niyo dyan. Sige, so would you say attorney Alex na ito yung main reference natin sa inyong report? **[04:44:25.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:44:26.590] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay. **[04:44:28.710] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** And dito po sa inyong report, may parte po dyan na hango sa mga records. Tama po? **[04:44:36.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:44:37.340] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** At meron pong hango sa mga record, pero meron kayong assumptions. **[04:44:40.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:44:41.290] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Tama. **[04:44:42.320] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Would you say that, well, para sa akin po, meron kayong dalawang main assumptions. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. And kung meron kayong dagdag na assumptions, pwede rin pong banggitin. So first assumption is that si Vice President Sara merong 20% ownership ng GenCorp. **[04:45:05.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:45:06.670] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** And that's an assumption. Ibig sabihin yan, pwede yung 1%, pwede rin 50%, pwede rin 75%. Tama po, no? **[04:45:15.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po, pero assumption po na with basis po. **[04:45:18.030] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Yes. And could you repeat again what the basis is? Para lang po malinaw sa atin. **[04:45:22.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. So yung kanya pong oath, ang kanya pong sinumpaang SALN, sinabi niya po na siya po ay isang stockholder po doon. **[04:45:34.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sa GenCorp po na GIS, wala po siya doon. So yung una po namin tinignan sa aming sensitivity analysis, ano ba itong mga relationship nila ni Jaime T. Cruz? At nakita namin na yung relationship nila way back 2007, meron pa pong ibang corporation na Davao. Ano nga ba yan? Davao Taizan? Meron pa pong isa na Davao New Royal Taizan Corp. Nung 2017, 20% din po yung pag-aari niya. Yung Metro City Chow po ay 20%. So yung unang tumakbo po rin sa isip namin, bakit niya ilalagay yung sarili niyang stockholder na sinumpaan pa? Doon po yung ano ba yung mga rule of thumb para matawag ka na... Ano **[04:46:34.900] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** po ba yung rule of thumb sa Tagalog? **[04:46:39.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang tanong po yan. **[04:46:41.210] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Parang pangkaraniwang ginagawa. Ano yung pangkaraniwang ginagawa? **[04:46:45.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Actually po, yung accounting rules po. Yung PAS po o na investments. **[04:46:54.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At saka po yung sa... **[04:46:57.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung significant influence po, nung nabuo po yan, galing din po yan sa experience po ng business community. **[04:47:04.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kaya **[04:47:05.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po siya nabuo. So ang threshold po niyan, pagka may 20% ka, may significant influence ka. And kaya naman po, maniniwala, okay po, may assumption po, kaya sinabi namin na may significant influence siya kasi vice president siya eh. Tapos si JTC, **[04:47:24.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** eh **[04:47:26.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Envoy sa China, subordinate ni President Duterte. Tapos ito naman po yung anak niya na vice president. So yung significant influence, meron po yung significant influence because of her position and long time relationship with JTC, with Jaime T. Cruz. At given yung kanya mga dating ownership sa kumpanya na kung saan silang magkasyosyo, kinopia po namin yun. Pero sabi ko nga po, conservative po yun. Kasi po kung silang dalawa po yung magkasyosyo, tulad po sa Metro City Chow, kung saan syosyo po sila doon sa Chow King, 80-20 po yun eh. Dahil yung iba pong mga accounts doon eh nominal. So kung sa GenCorp naman, si Jaime T. Cruz na siyang may-ari ng JTC Group of Companies, effectively siya yun, 55 siya doon. Kung partner sila ni BP Sara, 45 si BP Sara. **[04:48:29.430] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So **[04:48:30.030] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** in **[04:48:31.430] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** short, ang sinasabi ko ninyo, possibly anywhere from 20 to 45. Yan yung inyong expert analysis but that's also an assumption. Hindi kayo sigurado pero sa tingin ninyo, Anywhere from 20 to 45, posible. Okay. Yung pangalawang assumption po na ginawa ninyo is that lahat ng undeclared income, pinaghati-hatian. **[04:48:54.500] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Correct? **[04:48:55.140] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Yung **[04:48:55.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** piercing the veil po? **[04:48:56.600] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** I'm not sure kung yan yung piercing the veil. **[04:48:59.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ito po yan. Pero hindi ko po siya tatawaging assumption. Marami pong rules na ginagamit po na maaari pong mag-lead sa piercing the veil. Yun po'y aking judgment. Pero yung judgment pong iyon ay meron pong malinaw na basihan. Pero kayo pong mga honorable senate judges po ang mag-de-decide po kung tama po yung gamit. **[04:49:21.850] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** But kasi posible namang yung undeclared income, posibleng pinang-invest sa ibang bagay, or posibleng pinambili ng ibang bagay, yung pinaghati-hatian siya itself is an analysis. I think ito rin yung mga tanong ni Senator Lacson kanina yan. **[04:49:38.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Pagpasensya nyo na po yung language ko po pero minsan po na oversimplify ko. Kasi ang hirap pong ipaliwanag ng piercing the veil ng hindi ginagamit yung corporation as a separate juridical personality from the owners of the corporation. Kaya sinimplehan ko lang po, pag hindi mo ipinasok sa negosyo, ibig sabihin, itatago nyo yun. At kung itatago nyo yun, alam naman itatago nyo yun **[04:50:01.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi paghahatian. **[04:50:02.870] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay, question **[04:50:03.970] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Atty. Alex ah. So itatago ninyo, therefore paghatian, hindi ba pwedeng itatago ninyo at gagamitin sa ibang bagay? Or in your experience, in decades of experience, usually ba yung nakatago at hindi dineklara sa BIR ay pinaghahatihan ng mga may-ari, ng mga beneficial owners? **[04:50:25.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[04:50:25.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[04:50:26.210] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So **[04:50:26.770] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** ganun yun, usually. Kung hindi ka magtatago para mag-invest ulit sa ibang negosyo **[04:50:31.290] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** or whatever. **[04:50:31.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, hindi. Kaya po tinatago. Hindi po ganito yung mga kliyente namin pero ako po ay nakukonsult po sa iba't ibang mga bagay at marami na po siyempre yung natignan ng mga tax assessment cases etc. Pagka yan po ay hindi dinideclare kasi gusto po nilang palakihin yung income nila. **[04:50:50.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ito **[04:50:50.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po yun sa mga corporations po. Kasi po masyado pong mabigat yung tax. Kasi pag nagdeclare ka, may tax yun. So bawas **[04:50:57.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ka agad. **[04:50:57.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. At kung lumalaki yung income dahil nakailag sa tax, Eh, syempre po, paghahatian nyo yun. Kasi kung nasa loob po **[04:51:05.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yun ng **[04:51:06.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** corporation, i-declare po yun na **[04:51:08.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** dividends. Hindi na po kailangan i-declare na dividends. Wala po doon sa loob eh. **[04:51:12.210] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay. So, let's go to table 39. And ito kasi gusto ko lang linawin. I'm sure nasa isip rin ito ng ibang mga center judge. Dito sa, we have the total undeclared cash, section 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Okay. Alin po dito yung based purely on bank records and based purely on the insurance records. In fact, yung insurance po is really more like an investment. Hindi talaga siya yung pangkaraniwang pag-iintindi ng insurance na parang meron kang makukuha pag namatay. It's really more like an investment kasi parang stocks pa nga yung iba. So, alin po dito? Aling section dyan yung galing talaga sa bank record? **[04:52:00.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung bank-based information po dyan, column 2, 3, 4, 5. Hanggang 5 po. **[04:52:10.420] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Can you mention kung section **[04:52:11.760] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** 1, section **[04:52:12.580] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** 2, section **[04:52:13.780] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** 3, section 4, or section 5? Siguro section 5 ba itong dulo? Parang baka typographical error ba yan? **[04:52:20.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[04:52:20.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[04:52:20.880] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Kasi parehong section 4? **[04:52:22.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi isa po yan na undeclared income from... **[04:52:27.750] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** owned companies. **[04:52:29.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ibang **[04:52:29.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kumpanya kaya section 4 pa rin siya. Pero yung **[04:52:31.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sasabihin ko lang po, pati po GenCorp is bank-based. So lahat po yan bank-based except po yung nakahiwalay po na GenCorp. Yan po kasi yung kakaiba na meron po kaming attribution. **[04:52:43.330] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Yes, or **[04:52:43.770] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** the assumptions na **[04:52:44.530] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** sinabi natin **[04:52:45.070] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** kanina. **[04:52:45.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:52:45.970] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So **[04:52:46.210] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** yung purely on bank... records na wala kayong ginamit na attribution or assumption or 20% or ganyan, anong section po yun dito? **[04:52:57.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yan po lahat. Except yung GenCorp po na merong attribution. Pero yung pong mga Cale88, Metro, City, siyempre po, gumamit po kami dyan ng piercing the veil. Okay. **[04:53:11.740] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Piercing the veil. Pero hindi kayo naglagay ng porsyentuhan? O yung porsyentuhan na yan mula sa GIS? **[04:53:19.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:53:20.520] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So, **[04:53:21.600] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** if I'm not mistaken, ito lang GenCorp 55, 74, 82, 2023, 2024, 2025. Yan lang yung gumamit kayo ng... Assumption on ownership **[04:53:34.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. Pero Senator Bam, kaya ko pong ipaliwanag kung bakit po malakas yung, alam ko po yung gusto nyo pong puntahan, 817 minus 2-1-1. Pakicompute po, may calculator po. So sabihin natin 600 na lang po. Alam ko po natanggal po yung GenCorp ay 600 na lang po. Pero ito po yung ano, siguro po mahalaga pong masabi, Marami po kami hindi sinama dito na **[04:54:03.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dahil po napaka-controversial pero hindi po ibig sabihin na mali pag sinama namin. Una po dito yung confidential funds po na around 475 million during the two-year period. **[04:54:22.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** In respect of that po, yung Martinez versus Sandigan Bayan, pagka hindi mo na-liquidate yung Yung pondo na nasa iyo, meron pong pwede pong i-assume that it was used or malversed for personal use. Pagka yun po i-ginabi niyo for personal use, syempre po income po yun. So 475 po yun na kayang-kaya niya pong talunin yung mawawala po kung sakali na 200. **[04:54:51.860] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Attorney, huwag muna natin itindihin yung final number. Kasi the final number should be based on the evidence. Ang dating kasi parang pampalit. Wag ho ganoon. Let's just go step by step. So section 1, ito yung bank records. Tama ba? **[04:55:11.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Undeclared cash. **[04:55:12.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Cash po. **[04:55:13.540] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Undeclared cash. **[04:55:14.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ending balances po. **[04:55:16.080] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay. Nang Sara Duterte, Man Scarpio, and any joint accounts. **[04:55:21.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[04:55:22.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Okay. **[04:55:22.840] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Yung section 2, ito yung mga, ano tong section 2? **[04:55:26.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Physical properties **[04:55:27.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[04:55:28.020] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** physical properties na wala na hindi nyo mahanap sa mga sasariyan. **[04:55:31.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero **[04:55:31.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasama po dyan ang mga investments po at saka investments and insurance po nandyan din po. **[04:55:38.840] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Nandito na yun? Okay. So the insurance which is actually more like investments are personal properties. **[04:55:47.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Personal properties po. Tama po. **[04:55:49.060] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Yung section 3, ano po yung section 3? **[04:55:51.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yan po yung outso po na hindi po napunta. sa personal properties or properties, physical properties at hindi po naiwan sa undeclared cash po. **[04:56:03.700] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So hindi pa rin ito yung sa corporation, si section 3? **[04:56:06.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi pa po. **[04:56:06.980] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** This is still based on the records sa mga banko, investment? **[04:56:10.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kanila po yan. Yung corporation po natin nagsisimula po dun sa next section. Ito pong Cale88 at Metro City. **[04:56:19.640] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Si Cale88 at Metro City, malinaw yung ownership. Tama ba ni Man Scarpio? **[04:56:24.970] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Wala po si Sarah **[04:56:25.850] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** dyan, no? **[04:56:26.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. Si Dr. Lebosada po yung partner niya po dyan. **[04:56:30.350] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay. **[04:56:30.900] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** And ito yung almost 50% ownership. **[04:56:33.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 47.5 **[04:56:34.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** % each **[04:56:35.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[04:56:35.220] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** In each metro, for Metro City and Cale88. So may basis kayo to compute yung undeclared **[04:56:43.320] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** income. **[04:56:43.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 20% po si VP Sara sa Metro City Chow. 47.5% po si Atty. Mans Carpio sa Cale88. **[04:56:51.730] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay, so it's actually just GenCorp, itong pang limang column kung saan kayo nag-apply ng 20% assumed ownership. **[04:57:01.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:57:02.270] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay, so kung tatanggalin mo yun, yung may assumption kayo, paki-add nga ulit, magkano yun? Paki- **[04:57:08.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 211 po. **[04:57:09.280] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So pag i-subtract mo yun sa 817? **[04:57:11.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 606 po. **[04:57:12.460] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So 606 yung based on records. **[04:57:17.930] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** records of the bank, records of the insurance companies, records of SEC, 606 po. **[04:57:23.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 606 po. **[04:57:24.590] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** And then yung natitirang 211, technically, pwedeng lumiit, pwedeng lumaki. Pag malaman natin kung magkano talaga yung ownership sa GenCorp, pwedeng lumiit, pwedeng lumaki yung 211. **[04:57:36.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[04:57:36.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[04:57:37.160] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Tama po. **[04:57:37.720] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Maraming salamat, Atty. Alex. Thank you. **[04:57:39.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Thank you. **[04:57:46.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Thank you. Ring ng ring. **[04:57:51.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tapos na? **[04:57:57.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The Senate President is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have a variable period of two minutes. **[04:58:02.940] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon, Atty. Alex. **[04:58:06.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang hapon po, President Wing. **[04:58:07.820] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kikita mo naman gano'ng kahalaga yung testimonya mo at yung report mo dito sa impeachment na ito dahil yung tanong ay binigyan kami ng mas mahabang panahon para magtanong at mag-clarify ng mga items dito sa report. So yun ang gagawin natin, mag-clarify. At susundan ko yung mga tanong ni Sen. Bam dahil mahalagang maklarify ito. At pupunta ako dito sa GenCorp. **[04:58:43.320] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** At nakita ko dito sa GenCorp, basically ang sinasabi ng report mo na mas malaki ang perang pumasok kaysa sa sales nila. Tama po ba? **[04:58:53.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:58:56.100] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So ang ibig ba sabihin yan na may perang pumapasok at hindi nila rin i-record as sales? **[04:59:02.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:59:03.540] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pwede ba mag-iba ito? For example, loan, advances, or even pass-through, baka pinadaan lang yung pera doon. Pwede bang ganun ang nangyari dito sa GenCorp? **[04:59:17.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po talaga likely kasi dapat po i-record din po nilang payable. Bakit pa po nila inilalabas? **[04:59:23.950] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So wala kayong nakitang ganyan? **[04:59:25.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[04:59:26.070] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So itong nakita ko dito sa report niyo, from 2022 to 2025, ang undeclared inflows ay 1 billion. Ibig sabihin, pumasok yung pera, 1 billion, pero hindi niyo nakita sa kanilang balance sheet or even sa kanilang income statement. **[04:59:44.910] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So **[04:59:45.610] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** dahil pumasok ito sa kanila, sinasabi niyo rin, na hindi sila nagbayad ng buwis. Tama po ba? **[04:59:54.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[04:59:54.620] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** At magkano **[04:59:55.540] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** yun yung kanilang hindi binayaran na buwis dito sa GenCorp? **[05:00:00.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Basic po, 250 po. **[05:00:03.090] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Magkano? **[05:00:03.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ay sorry po, ginagamit ko na yung bagong rate na kahit at 25%, 250 million po. **[05:00:08.330] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So ibig sabihin ang GenCorp hindi nagbayad ng 250 million in taxes? **[05:00:14.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:00:15.520] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Okay. At sinasabi nyo rin dito sa inyong report, dahil hindi siya nagbayad ng taxes, pwedeng i-pierce yung corporate veil. **[05:00:24.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:00:25.720] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Tama po ba? **[05:00:26.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po yun. **[05:00:26.880] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So pag **[05:00:27.240] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** ganun po lalabas, Ang mangyayari ho, yung mga shareholders ang dapat, unang-una, yung shareholders ina-attributing income sa kanila, yung taxes, sila rin ang dapat magbayad. **[05:00:41.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:00:42.200] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So **[05:00:42.580] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** itong 250 million in taxes, dapat ho yung mga shareholders magbayad prorated. **[05:00:51.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:00:52.480] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Tama, no? **[05:00:56.820] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Dito sa... **[05:01:01.230] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Ang tanong ko ngayon, meron bang mga kaso o jurisprudence na ganun na ang ginawa? Na pierce yung corporate veil dahil hindi ho nagbayad ng taxes? **[05:01:14.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, marami pong... **[05:01:15.960] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Can you give **[05:01:17.160] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** us an example or cite a case? **[05:01:19.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Jurisprudence po? **[05:01:20.240] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Jurisprudence. **[05:01:22.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Medyo hindi ko po... Pinagandaan yung listahan po ng jurisprudence po sa piercing the veil kasi masyado po marami. **[05:01:28.650] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Itong **[05:01:28.890] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** particular case na hindi nagbayad ng taxes, kaya ang dapat magbayad ay yung mga shareholders. **[05:01:35.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Actually yung tax code po na in-adjust niya to 30%, meron pong isang kaso, hindi ko na lang po banggitin yung pangalan, na mas mababa po doon. Pero yung mas mababa po doon, pero hindi po siya naging fraud. Dahil po ang sinabi po sa kasong yun, gawa nung ipinakita naman lahat sa BIR ay hindi po na deprive ang government ng opportunity to find out kung ano po yung nangyari. And nakita po nila na may good faith po doon sa... under declaration. Yun po yung 20. Kaya po nung ginamit po yung case na yun, nag-develop na lang po ng 30 para wala na pong usapan, prima facie evidence of fraud po ang ginamit nilang basihan. Kung babasahin niyo po yung bagong tax code, ang ginagamit niya po, substantial under declaration. Pwede pa rin pong magkaroon ng piercing of the veil kahit po lower than 30%. Except pag 30%, mas madali na. Pero pag lower, pwede pa rin po. Yun po yung provision po ng tax code pag tinignan niyo po dahil nagsisimula siya sa substantial under declaration. **[05:02:55.640] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Doon **[05:02:56.380] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** sa nabanggit niyong kaso, anong kaso po yun? **[05:03:00.800] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Para rin makompare rin namin dahil importante itong ginawa niyong kagaya na sinabi ni... **[05:03:07.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede pong... **[05:03:09.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pagkatapos na lang po. Bigay ko po sa inyo yung pangalan. Baka magalit po. **[05:03:12.570] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Alright. Sige. Pero may kaso. Okay. Isupply nyo na lang yung GR number or yung case number. **[05:03:25.070] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Isa pa rin clarification. Dahil nga wala namang sa GIS yung pangalan ni... Vice President Sara. Pero nasa kanyang SALN itong GenCorp. At naiintindihan ko kung paano yung methodology na ginawa ninyo. At narinig ko rin kahapon sa sinabi nyo dahil napakahalaga yung GenCorp na importante yung declaration sa SALN. Anong basis nyo dyan sa statement na yan? **[05:04:04.390] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Meron ba kayong legal basis, again, jurisprudence na sabi nyo na mas mahalaga yung timbang ng SALN kaysa sa GIS? **[05:04:12.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, unang-una po, yung SALN po ay final po ng Vice President po. **[05:04:19.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pangalawang pinakamataas na may katungkulan po sa ating bansa. Pangalawa po, it's a statement under oath versus po sa mga private corporations po na nagpa-file na **[05:04:34.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong tulad ng consequence na maaari pong mangyari for erroneous document or erroneous declaration. Wala pong masyadong ano kasi sa SEC po, mababa lang po yung multa dyan kung meron man, kung merong inaccurate na i-file on JS. So dahil po yung consequence po magkaiba, ay mas Kinikilingan ko po yung isa po na may malaki pong consequence. **[05:05:04.400] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Which is the SALN. **[05:05:05.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung SALN po, under oath po. **[05:05:07.140] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Dahil personally, under oath yun. **[05:05:09.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[05:05:09.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[05:05:10.060] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Compared to the GIS na sinasabi nyo. **[05:05:14.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:05:15.120] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** And **[05:05:15.660] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** then nakita ko rin dito sa report nyo na meron kayong mga bagay doon na tingin nyo na hindi naman mga nominees lang yung mga tao. I think tatlong tao, dito sa report niyo may tatlong tao kayong in-identify ng mga nominees. Paano niyo, ano ang basihan niyo na din-declare niyo silang, sa report niyo, in-assume niyo sila ng nominees? At ang totoong may-ari ay si Vice President Sara. **[05:05:46.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, si Jaime T. Cruz po kasi isa pong sikat na negosyante sa Davao. Pagka po... Ginamit po naming model yung Metro City Chow dahil fast food chain din po, Jollibee po yung nandun. Sila po yung magkasyosyo doon at ang nakita nga po namin doon ay 80-20. Kaya sinasabi lang namin kung sila rin yung magkasyosyo sa GenCorp eh 55-45 dahil 55 yung kay Jaime T. Cruz. At subalit po baka masyadong mataas po yung 45, bumaba po kami ng 20 at ang na-identify po namin na 20 ay si Richie Cruz na sa Metro City Chow po, 0.04% po yung pag-aari niya or nominal share lang po. Pero pagdating po sa GenCorp eh naging 20 po. So sabi namin ito, baka ito yung nominee niya, yung asawa po ni JTC. **[05:06:48.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero hindi lang po yung kinopia po namin tulad nga po nung naipaliwanag ko kanina. Ano ba yung merong sense na ba't mo nilalagay dyan? Diba? So parang sabi po namin kung mahalaga kasi kaya mo nilalagay dyan. And meron po siyang, kaya po inassume namin na using po yung accounting rules na 20, ang threshold, SEC mabrandom circular na attribute po ng ownership niya. 20% din po yung threshold. Tapos yung pong ano, yung pong sa Metro City Chow po, yung sa GIS niya po, na ang nakalagay po ay, sorry po, sa GenCorp po, ng GIS niya po ang nakalagay po ay JTC Group of Companies. Nag-violate po yun ng ultimate beneficial owner disclosure na isa pong requirement po ng SEC. At hindi niya po dinisclose sino po talaga yung ultimate beneficial owner na ang pwede lang po maging ultimate beneficial owner based on SEC rules is a natural person. So taking all that, kaya po napilitan po kami maglagay po rin ng motibo. Bakit hindi ka pwedeng mag-disclose sa GIS ng GenCorp. Kasi nga po, kumuka po ng kontrata yung GenCorp sa City of Davao. So yun lang po yung hypothesis namin kung bakit hindi po siya sinasama sa GIS pero nilalagay naman po niya sa SALN niya yung GenCorp. **[05:08:31.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[05:08:31.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** may tagagawa po siya nung SALN niya, alam po siguro yung tagagawa na siya po yung may-ari. Tapos pinipirmahan niya po yun eh. So, baka po naging careless lang po. **[05:08:43.130] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kaya na-attribute yun kay Vice President Sara. **[05:08:47.050] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** At **[05:08:47.730] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** the same, tatalon lang ako sa isang company. Ganun rin nakita ko sa pag-analyze mo ng Metro City Chow na mas malaki rin yung pumasok na pera kumpara sa benta. Dito ang undeclared inflows ay 98 million pesos. So, kung 98 million pesos ang undeclared inflows, hindi niyo rin nakita sa kanyang libro kung ito ay advances, ito ay loan? **[05:09:20.550] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Oo po, wala po yan sa libro. Yung mga nasa libro po ay, ang ginawa po kasi namin, total inflows, tapos nag-compute po kami ng inflow ng kumpanya based on their statement of financial cash flows. Yan po yung **[05:09:38.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** main na document na ginamit namin. Tapos yung deprensya po, yun po yung kinonsider po namin undeclared. So, In other words, binanggan namin yung total bank inflows sa inflows per financial statements. **[05:09:57.860] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** And ganun rin na mayroon ding tax liabilities. May utang to. Kung **[05:10:04.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 98 po yun at halos 100 po, mga 25 million po. **[05:10:09.160] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** At ganoon rin, dahil mayroong utang, eh dapat may dahilan na ngayon i-pierce yung corporate veil. At **[05:10:18.880] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** ganoon **[05:10:20.200] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** rin, yung kanilang shareholder rin, ang dapat first i-attribute yung income sa kanila, at pangalawa, sila ang dapat magbayad ng **[05:10:29.720] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** utang. **[05:10:30.760] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Sa **[05:10:31.380] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** buwis. **[05:10:33.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung maaari ko lamang pong mabanggit, yung corporation po kasi wala po yung sariling puso at utak eh, at kamay at paa. Ang kanya pong utak, puso, kamay at paa ay nasa board of directors po at saka sa mga may-ari sa kanya. So yan po yung nagbibigay buhay sa corporation. **[05:10:52.540] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So ibig sabihin kung ang corporation ay hindi nagde-declare ng tamang sales, hindi **[05:10:58.600] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** rin **[05:10:58.820] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** nagbabayad ng tamang buwis, ay may kagagawa nun yung mga... **[05:11:02.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung mga may-ari po. **[05:11:03.520] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Directors. **[05:11:03.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung mga may-ari. **[05:11:04.560] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yung mga **[05:11:04.940] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** directors. Kaya pinipierce yung corporate veil. **[05:11:07.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:11:08.000] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** All right. Pupunta naman ako. May tatlong corporation kasi nabanggit nyo dito. Dito sa Cale88. **[05:11:15.960] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Ganun rin yung inyong analysis na meron 35 million pesos na hindi diniclear. **[05:11:27.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[05:11:29.180] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Ganun rin. May utang rin to. So magkano yung utang na buis dito sa Cale88? **[05:11:36.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 5 million plus po. 6 million po siguro kung ganun lang po yung undeclared. Pero 51% po yung under declaration. **[05:11:48.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At base lamang po sa nakita po naming dokumento. **[05:11:57.380] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Doon sa AMLAC report, nandito na tayo sa **[05:12:03.280] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** sa Cale88. Doon sa AMLC report, nakita namin na may 700 million na pumasok in terms of inflows. Pero dito sa bank **[05:12:18.440] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** inflows na, dito sa bank inflows sa report ninyo, 247 million. Meron bang possibility na recorded nag-AMLC pero hindi recorded? sa libro ng corporation? **[05:12:33.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung AMLC po kasi ano eh, nagtatag po siya ng transactions, cover transactions saka mga STR po. So hindi po possible po na, hindi po mali yung AMLC. Hindi po siya mali. Kasi yun po yung gawain niya, magtag po ng transactions. Pero kami po sa ginawa po namin, pati yung report pong yun na may nakita kami mga paired. or pairing. **[05:13:00.090] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pero nakita niyo yun yung 700 million. **[05:13:03.070] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Do **[05:13:03.630] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** you remember? **[05:13:04.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang naalala ko po sa AMLC report yung 319 eh. **[05:13:08.370] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** That's from the China. **[05:13:10.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, **[05:13:10.710] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** opo. Yung 700 parang hindi ko po. **[05:13:12.710] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Total, **[05:13:13.010] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** total na yun eh. That is China, other countries, tsaka iba pang mga inflows. **[05:13:19.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[05:13:19.890] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So anong possibility na may pumasok, according to AMLC, may pumasok na 700, pero according to your report, **[05:13:26.990] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** uh **[05:13:28.590] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Inflows 247. What are the possibilities based on your expert based on your experience and expert opinion? **[05:13:39.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maari po kasing pumasok at matag once tapos po i-convert into a credit dun sa account matag twice. Pagka ganyan po tinatanggal po namin yung isa. **[05:13:54.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So **[05:13:55.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** maari pong magduda kami na baka magkaiba to hinati lang. Pwede rin po yun. Pero sabi ko nga po, doon po kami sa conservative ang lagi po namin ginagamit. **[05:14:06.010] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pwede bang pumasok, hindi pumasok? Kasi tinignan nyo yung bank accounts, di ba? **[05:14:09.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[05:14:10.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[05:14:10.610] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pwede bang natag sa Cale88 pero hindi pumasok sa bank accounts? Meron bang ibang way na pwedeng pasukan ang pera na hindi bank accounts? **[05:14:20.980] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Based on your experience and... **[05:14:23.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Bank **[05:14:24.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** account po yung papasukan. Otherwise po hindi po matatag ng AMLC eh. So bank account po yung pinasukan. Pero most likely po foreign currency account yung pinasukan. At alam po namin na may foreign currency account versus local bank accounts. Kasi compare po namin yun at magkaiba po yun. **[05:14:47.930] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So, it can be tagged twice in other words. Foreign and then peso. **[05:14:52.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pagka-convert po, possible po matag po ulit yun kasi kung ililipat po nila. **[05:15:00.010] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Okay. **[05:15:02.230] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pupunta naman ako doon sa question ni St. Teresa on the, doon sa kiting, check kiting and or tinikling. Anong significance nito dito sa inyong report? May nakita ba kayong, kasi merong 90 million around 2010, 2011. Nakita natin may mga managers check na nag-expire. But ano ang inyong nakitang connection dito naman sa mga present transaction, itong mga last three years of transactions? **[05:15:42.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So kung titignan po natin magmula-simula, parang noon na po, **[05:15:48.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Time deposit po na hindi naka-declare. Tapos managers check po ang paraan para hindi po ma-declare. Tapos po naging investments na po na hindi naka-declare. So parang nagbabago po yung mode nila **[05:16:05.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** of **[05:16:06.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kung paano po sila mag-ano po ng asset, mamili po ng asset. **[05:16:14.050] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** But it's the **[05:16:15.350] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** same 90 million na undeclared time deposit. **[05:16:17.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nag-ano po yan eh, na-convert na po to insurance yung 80, tapos yung 16.2, sinuli po kay Sammy Uy. Ay sorry po sa word na sinuli. Niremit po, binayad po kay Sammy Uy. **[05:16:34.480] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Ok. But it's the same 90 million **[05:16:39.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na **[05:16:40.540] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** naging investment lang? At hindi rin na-declare yung investment na yun. **[05:16:45.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[05:16:46.040] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yun ang nakita niyong relevance itong **[05:16:48.460] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** 90 million. **[05:16:50.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sandali lang po. Parang na-declare po yung insurance po. Na-pick up po namin yun eh. Yung insurance na 80 million po. **[05:16:58.960] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Okay. 80 million, was it declared or not declared? Based on your analysis. **[05:17:11.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi po yung... The way that we do it po, kinukompare po namin lahat po ng personal properties dito po sa na-declared po versus po dito sa mga personal properties po na hindi po declared. Kaya total po yung ginagamit po namin eh. So baka po, pagbalikan ko lang po yung detalye, makikita ko po kung specific identification kung kaya pero certainly yung totals po nun tama. **[05:17:40.250] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Sige po. Go ahead. Can you **[05:17:42.550] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Look at their notes para makita natin. **[05:18:00.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Honorable Sen. Wiena, hindi po pumasok sa SALN. **[05:18:05.430] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So hindi siya pumasok sa SALN. So in other words, in short, in time deposit na naging investments through insurance, hindi po pumasok sa SALN. **[05:18:14.400] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Okay. **[05:18:16.140] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** And **[05:18:17.190] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** My last question, dito sa Finlash ni Senator Bam kanina, in total undeclared income of the couple, which is about 111 **[05:18:41.730] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** million? **[05:18:42.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Fourth **[05:18:42.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** column po. **[05:18:44.050] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yeah, **[05:18:44.530] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** fourth column. Tama ba? 111 million? **[05:18:47.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Siguro po. **[05:18:50.050] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** 62, 90, **[05:18:55.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 111, okay. **[05:18:57.130] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** 111 million, tama. **[05:18:59.330] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Ano ang source nitong income na ito? **[05:19:04.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Bank flows po, inflows po sa bank. **[05:19:07.560] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So pumasok to sa kanilang bank, the way you computed it, pumasok to sa kanilang bank accounts. **[05:19:14.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:19:16.580] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** 111, i-compute ko lang mabuti just to be sure. **[05:19:27.360] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Tama, 111 million. **[05:19:32.430] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Anong source niya? **[05:19:33.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Honorable Win, para lang po for clarity po, kasi po yung pumasok po, meron pong natira sa ending balance ng cash. Tapos meron pong na-convert into properties, personal and real property. Tapos ito pong third column, effectively po, yan po yung outflow na hindi po namin alam kung saan pumunta. **[05:20:00.070] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yes. Ang first tanong ko, ano yung inflow? **[05:20:03.680] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Saan ang **[05:20:04.280] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** galing yung inflow? **[05:20:05.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sa bank records din po, sa statement of account po. **[05:20:08.160] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** But ano ang source? **[05:20:09.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang source po niya ay deposits po. **[05:20:12.410] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Anong source ng deposits? **[05:20:14.870] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kasi considered **[05:20:15.750] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** niyo income eh. **[05:20:16.690] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So **[05:20:17.420] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** ano yung naging source ng deposits? **[05:20:20.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi maaari pong pagka po check eh, makikita po natin pero marami pong cash deposits. **[05:20:27.360] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Okay. But hindi nyo alam kung ito galing sa negosyo? **[05:20:30.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po eh. Wala po tayong ganung klaseng dokumento eh. Kaya yung ginagamit po natin dito, yung principle of law. **[05:20:41.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Actually po, kung ano man po yung mga nasa bank accounts natin ngayon, pag may nangyari po sa atin, subject po yun sa estate tax, di po ba? Ganyan po kabigat yung presumption ng law eh na kung ano yung nasa bank account mo, ay sa'yo yun. **[05:20:58.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So kung halimbawa po yung nasa bank account po sabihin na held in trust lang yan eh. Kung held in trust yan eh dapat nakadeclare naman po yung liability. Kasi ang ibig sabihin po ng held in trust meron kang cash pero meron ka ring liability pero hindi po nakadeclare yung liability yun po sa SALN. At kung sabihin naman natin na Hindi, held in trust talaga yan. So parang kada deposito po held in trust. Parang naging bangko na silang pinagdideposito ng mga tao na lahat po held in trust. So parang hindi po kapanipaniwala na yan po lahat eh held in trust. So ang pwede lang po dyan ay maging income, payable, o kaya po donation. Pero sa isa pong vicepresidente, or public officials for that matter. Bawal po yung donation. Minimal value lang po yung pwede sa donation. In fact, ang sabi po sa batas in the course of work. I think, **[05:22:12.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** well, anyway. Ang sabi po sa batas is hindi ka allowed mag-accept ng donation unless nominal value Bawal pong mag-accept ng donation in the course of your work. Subalit ang vice-presidente po, ang pagiging vice-presidente po ay 24-hour job. Yan po yung nasa isip namin. Kahit natutulog siya, is vice-presidente po siya. Kahit po weekend, vice-presidente po siya. Nasa bakasyon po siya, vice-presidente po siya. Kasi po hindi naman po tumitigil yung... yung inyo pong obligasyon pagka kayo po ay naging vice-presidente. So na-rule out na rin po namin yung donation kasi bawal yun. So kung hindi yan donation, walang nakadeclare na payable sa SALN, ang manner na lang na pag-acquire mo dyan ay income. Yun po yung ginamit po naming proseso. Kung **[05:23:07.120] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** income yun, dapat may income tax? **[05:23:09.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Pero tinanggal din po namin yung mga ibang baka yung Pumasok po doon ay galing lang po sa kanya pong ibang bank account. Eliminated din po yun. So may mga eliminations po kaming ginagawa. But in principle po, yun po yung dahilan kung bakit po yung mode of acquisition po ng ownership na in-assume namin ay income. Yung isa po pala doon eh, pamana pero hindi naman po pamana yun. **[05:23:37.310] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kung income to, magkano ang income tax na kailangang bayaran? **[05:23:41.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Individual po, 35 po. **[05:23:44.630] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Dito sa 111 million. **[05:23:47.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 35 percent po. So **[05:23:49.170] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** 30 million. More or less 35 million ang kailangan bayaran. Sa **[05:23:55.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 135 million. **[05:23:56.530] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you Atty. Alex for the clarification. **[05:24:01.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. Sen. Judge Camille Villar is recognized thereafter. Sen. Judge Pia Cayetano to avail of their first round. **[05:24:15.040] Sen. Camille Villar** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, and magandang hapon po, Atty. Cabrera. **[05:24:21.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang **[05:24:21.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hapon po, **[05:24:22.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ma 'am. **[05:24:22.180] Sen. Camille Villar** Yes, good afternoon. May mga konting clarificatory questions lang ako. Dito po sa inyong, dito sa forensic report po ninyo, ay sinuri ko yung iba't ibang mga tables. So meron lang po kung isang nakita, tapos gusto ko lang po i-clarify. Kasi unahin na lang po natin dun sa... Main amount, tapos kung paano tayo nag-arrive dun sa main amount. Dito kasi sa table 39, sa page 37, meron kayong linagay na total undeclared, hindi po ba? Tapos andyan po yung mga total, yan yung total na minimension ng lahat ng tao since kanina na ilang milyon. Nakita ko po, meron po tayong first column that's total undeclared cash. Then the second column is section 2 is the total undeclared other personal and real properties. Section 3 po, yun po ay under undeclared assets. Tapos under undeclared income naman po, section 3, merong total undeclared income of the couple. And then section 4 is the computed undeclared income of Calilung 88 **[05:25:36.920] Sen. Camille Villar** and Metro City and then total computed undeclared income. So, ang napansin ko po dito, dito sa second section, section 2, itong total undeclared and other personal and real properties po, sa year 2022, ang amount po ay 76,147,730. So, forgive me, sinusuri ko po ito kasi napakalaki po ng amount. Habang naghihintay po ko, binasa ko po yung report nyo kung paano nyo na-derive kasi gusto ko po tingnan kung gaano pa ka-solid or saan po nanggaling ang ating mga numbers. So, binalikan ko po yung page 10 ng ating report sa interest in businesses. Tapos dito na, dito na natin pinag-uusapan yung GenCorp. Kasi yung section 2, sorry, Page 12 po pala. I found out that you were able to find yung total undeclared personal other than cash assets is you added the investments of in 2022, the insurance, hindi po ba? **[05:26:52.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:26:53.740] Sen. Camille Villar** And then yung firearms, wala po. And then itong interest in businesses, di ba? Tapos sinubtract niyo po yung nasa SALN. Kaya po kayo nag-arrive sa 76,147,730. Ito po yung sa page 12. **[05:27:10.550] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Okay. **[05:27:11.930] Sen. Camille Villar** So ito naman pong 76 million ay forms is composed of, yun nga, yun ang sinabi natin. Ito naman... Section C, yung interest in business na 44 million. Ang in-add niyo po yung paid up capital and advances from shareholders. So this is on table 14, page 10. Hindi po ba? **[05:27:39.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:27:40.570] Sen. Camille Villar** So **[05:27:41.210] Sen. Camille Villar** nakalagay po dito, 2022, ang paid up capital po ay 35,359,375. Advances from shareholders is 8,787,500. Tapos ang sinabi niyo pong total interest in business na hindi na-declare is 44,146,875. Hindi po ba? **[05:28:06.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:28:07.090] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay. Okay, so hindi ko na po masyadong natingnan yung advances from shareholders pero nakita ko po yung sa paid capital in 20, paid up capital of 2022 of 35,359,300. **[05:28:25.180] Sen. Camille Villar** 359,375 pesos. So dito po naintindihan ko po yung sa year 2022, this is table 15 naman po, ang linagay niyo pong paid up capital by VP Sara is 300,000 pesos po. And I suppose, did you get this from the GIS? **[05:28:44.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[05:28:44.810] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay. And yung ano po, yung paid up capital po by the spouse? **[05:28:51.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sa GIS din po. **[05:28:52.730] Sen. Camille Villar** Sa GIS din po. Okay po. Yung calculated capital contribution to GenCorp na 35 million, nabasa ko po dito na yung nabasa ko po dito is una you found out through receipts na GenCorp owns five Jollibee branches throughout Davao. Hindi po ba? **[05:29:15.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:29:16.030] Sen. Camille Villar** Yes. So **[05:29:16.830] Sen. Camille Villar** okay naman yun. Pero itong 35 million po na ito ay basically hinanap niyo po sa internet sa Jollibee website po. At nakita niyo na a franchise would cost anywhere between 35 to 55 million. **[05:29:35.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:29:36.010] Sen. Camille Villar** Yun po, hindi po ba? Tapos, yeah, it said... I read here you said desktop research from Jollibee's official website shows an initial franchise between 35 to 55 million and then you conservatively assigned 35 million pesos, right? So ang way of computing niyo po is Sabi niyo, 35 million. Inestimate niyo from the website na 35 million ng isang franchise, minotiply niyo po by 5, so 175 million. And then you assumed. **[05:30:13.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 20%. **[05:30:13.880] Sen. Camille Villar** You **[05:30:14.200] Sen. Camille Villar** deduced. And how did you deduce this? **[05:30:17.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yun po. Yung tulad po nung napaliwanag ko po kanina, ginamit po namin yung 20% attributed rate. Dahil po sa maraming factors po. Yung relationship po nila ni Jaime Tan. But this **[05:30:34.360] Sen. Camille Villar** isn't in the GIS or there's no paperwork. **[05:30:37.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Walang **[05:30:38.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** paperwork po **[05:30:38.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na nagsasabi. Kung makikita niyo po, hudyat po yan eh. Sa report, nakaiwalay po si GenCorp. **[05:30:46.680] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay. **[05:30:47.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ba't po namin gagawin? Kasi po binibigay po namin sa mga judges, honorable senator judges, ang pagkakataon. **[05:30:54.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[05:30:55.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** gusto niyo po itong pick-up-in o hindi. **[05:30:57.200] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay. Alright. So ang caveat mo doon is that you estimated. Ito po yung estimate based on your maybe expertise. Ito po yung amount na sinasabi niyo na... **[05:31:12.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po siya estimate in the sense of an estimate. Ano po siya? Sensitivity analysis po. **[05:31:19.140] Sen. Camille Villar** How did you do the sensitivity analysis? **[05:31:21.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung sensitivity analysis po, alimbawa po yung patay po at mainit-init pa, parang matatansya mo yung kung kailan siya namatay, kung kailan nag-efect yung lason. So, ito naman po, yung sensitivity analysis, kailangan po namin balikan yung historical facts, yung kanila pong partnership with Jaime T. Cruz, etc. **[05:31:45.410] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay, **[05:31:46.730] Sen. Camille Villar** so yun yun. So, based on your sensitivity analysis, yun lang naman, kaya po 20%, kaya po 35 million po ang linagay niyo sa... 35 million po, yun po. Pero dun po sa 35 million, for example, kasi balik po tayo sa paano natin even na-estimate na 35 million yung in-invest sa isang Jollibee. Kasi pwede naman pong 35 million, pwede din naman pong nakalagay dito, pwedeng 55 million. Do you know kung anong taon po binuksan yung limang stores? **[05:32:30.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron po kaming, wala po kaming data on kailan po siya binuksan. Pero **[05:32:35.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ang **[05:32:35.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ginamit po namin, kaya po namin tinawag na conservative, kasi yung 35 million po, yun po **[05:32:41.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung pinakamababa ng Jollibee. Tapos kung ang pag-uusapan lang po natin ay strictly capital, hindi pa po tapos ang 35 million. **[05:32:49.130] Sen. Camille Villar** O **[05:32:49.210] Sen. Camille Villar** kaya lang po naisip ko po, halimbawa, sa 2022 ba binuksan yung unang Jollibee? **[05:32:56.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Medyo hindi ko po alam ang data. Kaya po nalansya po. Pero ito po yung point dito eh. At nabanggit ko rin po kanina. **[05:33:04.870] Sen. Camille Villar** O **[05:33:04.990] Sen. Camille Villar** pero yun lang naman po ang tanong ko. **[05:33:06.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Salamat po. **[05:33:07.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yun po **[05:33:07.590] Sen. Camille Villar** estimate lang **[05:33:08.310] Sen. Camille Villar** naman po. **[05:33:09.610] Sen. Camille Villar** Sige po. **[05:33:10.350] Sen. Camille Villar** Yun **[05:33:10.790] Sen. Camille Villar** lang naman. Parang that's your estimate. **[05:33:12.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Conservative estimate po ang tawag ko po. **[05:33:13.610] Sen. Camille Villar** Yes, that's your **[05:33:14.150] Sen. Camille Villar** conservative **[05:33:14.630] Sen. Camille Villar** estimate. So it could be less, it could be more. **[05:33:19.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** It could be more, it couldn't be less. Yun po yung estimate ko. Kung mali po yun, mali. **[05:33:23.170] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay, okay. **[05:33:24.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kaya kung po tinatawag na conservative, **[05:33:26.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi **[05:33:26.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po bababa dun ang value po nung investment niya po. **[05:33:32.600] Sen. Camille Villar** Are you sure? Can you say with certainty na hindi bababa sa 35 million? **[05:33:37.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po bababa yung value po nung investment niya po. **[05:33:41.970] Sen. Camille Villar** E paano kung she acquired it for less? The company acquired it for less. Actually, Gencorp acquired it for less. **[05:33:52.700] Sen. Camille Villar** Certain po ba tayo na less than 35 million yung na-invest nila, na-invest nung kumpanya? And if you wanna pierce the corporate veil, maybe even the respondent, but perhaps that's a reach. **[05:34:10.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung pinagbabasayan ko po na hindi po bababa kasi po marami pa pong kailangan. Ang isang kumpanya po sa pag-start po. Yun lang po yung basis. In-explain ko lang po kung ano po yung ibig sabihin ng conservative approach. Ang ibig sabihin ng conservative, tingin ko na po, yan na po yung pinakamababa. Kung mali po ako, ay mali po ako. **[05:34:32.390] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay. **[05:34:33.020] Sen. Camille Villar** So that's your opinion po. So that's your conservative estimate. But wala po tayong document. or anything na nakita like a agreement between GenCorp and Jollibee as to the total investment that was made or the acquisition. Meron po ba tayong nakita ganun? **[05:34:52.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po Honorable Judge Villar, tsaka kulang po ang oras eh. Kulang po ang oras talaga. **[05:34:57.330] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay, so yun lamang po. **[05:35:02.000] Sen. Camille Villar** Meron po ba tayong any other... **[05:35:09.880] Sen. Camille Villar** document po na nakita other than the receipts that we used. I know you estimated based on your analysis, your sensitivity analysis. I'm just asking if there was any document used that we saw that could further strengthen yung calculated capital niyo po. **[05:35:31.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala na po. **[05:35:32.080] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay, wala na po. So, in effect, **[05:35:36.970] Sen. Camille Villar** So, at least with this column, at least for year 2022, dun po sa calculated capital contribution of GenCorp na falls under interest in businesses and that forms part of the total undeclared personal and other cash, this is based on your analysis. **[05:35:59.430] Sen. Camille Villar** So **[05:36:00.190] Sen. Camille Villar** wala po tayong document na nagsasabi kung magkano talaga. **[05:36:05.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong malinaw na document na nagsasabi kung **[05:36:08.310] Sen. Camille Villar** magkano yung contributed ng GenCorp. And for that matter, I saw nga po na dun po sa audited financial statements of GenCorp ay mababa rin yung income nila after. Hindi po tayo sure, pwedeng inutang po, pwedeng nanggaling from somewhere else, pwede po yun, pero hindi po tayo sure. **[05:36:30.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, pero yung mababa po yung income nila after, doon po kami may malaking katanungan. **[05:36:35.010] Sen. Camille Villar** Okay, well tinatanong ko lang, yun lang naman, I can end there. So, again, I just wanted to highlight that at least pertaining to the 2022 calculated capital contribution to GenCorp na 35 million, wala po tayong document. Proving that. And you cannot say with certainty and as a fact na yun ang na-contribute na capital sa GenCorp nung respondent. **[05:37:06.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Atribution po. **[05:37:07.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Attributed capital lang **[05:37:08.680] Sen. Camille Villar** po. Yun lang. So, hindi po kayo sure. So, yun lamang po. Maraming salamat po. **[05:37:13.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Senator Judge Camille. What is the pleasure of the Honorable Diokno? **[05:37:18.440] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** I just know if the witness would need to take a bathroom break or stretch his legs before we continue. If that is okay with the Honorable Court and the defense. **[05:37:28.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maraming salamat po, Honorable Shell. I'm okay po, Honorable Presiding Officer. **[05:37:34.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kung saka-sakali po, magsabi lang kayo. **[05:37:36.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maraming salamat. **[05:37:37.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Dahil may mga iba papuntis di kong gagamit niyang witness box. **[05:37:40.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maraming salamat po. **[05:37:43.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Magsabi po kayo at huwag kayo mag-atubili. **[05:37:45.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yes, **[05:37:48.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Pia Cayetano is recognized. You may proceed ma'am when you're ready. You have a parable period of two minutes thereafter to avail of the first round. Senator Judge Padilla before the senator judges avail of their second round. **[05:38:19.340] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Ako naman ang magtatanong sa ating council baka kailangan nila ng kape because they were under the misimpression when we checked how they were a few days ago na bawal ang kape para sa kanila. So kayong magdalawang isip magpabili ng kape. Siguro naman, Senate President, pwede naman ilibre ng kape. Ang ating mga, mayroon ho bawal yun. So honestly, it's... **[05:38:45.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Take note, the Senate President was asked. **[05:38:47.950] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** was asked and take note there is no answer. **[05:38:53.350] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Dear **[05:38:53.810] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** colleagues, kahapon lang sila nag-umpisa magkape kasi akala nila hindi sila pwedeng magpasok ng kape so really apologize for that. I know long hours at the least you can drink some coffee or tea. So I'll proceed. Thank you Mr. Witness. Thank you for your time. **[05:39:09.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maraming salamat rin po. **[05:39:10.670] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** We appreciate your choosing to participate here in these proceedings. And like we said, I'm a proponent of standing, having a bathroom break, having water. Baka ubos na po. Can our page check? **[05:39:28.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maraming salamat po sa Honorable Pia po. **[05:39:32.450] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Madali lang po sa inyo yung mga tanong ko kasi you are always admired. **[05:39:38.700] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** CPA lawyers. We are both lawyers. So, madali ho. I don't even know. Pakapasadahan ko lang sa legal concepts. Very simple. But you will have to help me out with the accounting principles because I am not a accountant. **[05:39:58.470] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Sa economics, my undergrad, three units lang ang accounting. But I've always been fascinated with business. So, I'll be asking a few clarificatory questions. So, Mr. Witness, in page 10, and I've asked my staff to load it so that it's easy for everyone to understand when I make reference to a table, but I also have a copy in my laptop. So, in page 10 of your forensic report, Table 15, it shows the paid-up capital by VP in Column 2, paid-up capital by spouse in Column 3, calculated capital contribution to GenCorp in Column 4, and the total paid-up capital in Column 5. You can confirm that naman po sir, that's from you. **[05:40:47.240] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** There may be some redundancy in my questions similar to Senator Camille's but di naman kami nag-usap so narinig ko lang. Medyo iba yung questions ko but it's around this topic. And earlier, you also had mentioned that based on your own, I think the term you used was desktop research. I think you used that term. The minimum total investment in a Jollibee franchise is 35 million. **[05:41:13.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[05:41:13.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pa. **[05:41:13.900] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Yes. And **[05:41:16.620] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** In table 15, again, the fourth column, you calculated that the VP's capital contribution to Gencor for 2022 is 35 million, for 2023, the same amount, 2024, the same amount, until 2025. So every year, 35 million. That is what it says, no? **[05:41:37.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:41:38.020] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Okay. **[05:41:43.770] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So are you basically saying that the entire Minimum total investment for a Jollibee franchise, SEVP ang nagsalo. Yun ang theory nyo. Kasi 35... **[05:41:57.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. Effectively po. Kung lima lang po yun. **[05:42:00.990] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Kung lima. **[05:42:01.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung lima lang po yun. Apo. **[05:42:02.970] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Pero sir, in the same report, or at least verbally, kasi I did have a copy of the annexes when you were testifying yesterday. I only saw it today. You said... Well, you also testified that there is no evidence on paper showing the percentage of ownership of the VP in Gencor. **[05:42:27.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's correct po. **[05:42:28.850] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Because she declared an interest in Gencor in the SALN but wala namang percentages doon and then silent naman ang General Information Sheet or the GIS. Her name is not there. So silent. **[05:42:44.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's correct. **[05:42:44.990] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So wala tayong basis. At least wala that you have found so far. And now please correct me if I understood correctly. Therefore, you assumed that using another corporation, Metro Food Corp, if I remember correctly, where she has a 20% stake, you used the same percentage because similar yung mga stockholders in both companies. **[05:43:09.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po **[05:43:10.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** but not only for that reason po. **[05:43:13.290] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Ano yung pakidagdag da rin huwi para maintindihan ko yung way of **[05:43:16.970] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** thinking niyo? **[05:43:17.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So yung Metro **[05:43:19.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** City Chow is one and yung Davao Royal Taipan is another one where she had 20%. **[05:43:26.320] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** With **[05:43:27.220] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** identical **[05:43:28.800] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** stockholders? **[05:43:30.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not identical po pero partner niya po si Jaime Tan. **[05:43:33.680] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So yun yung main, **[05:43:34.680] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** yun yung common? Yun yung main na. **[05:43:36.900] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So **[05:43:37.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** susundan po natin yung relationship nila. At yung rules po sa accounting po na significant influence po. **[05:43:45.560] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** What does that mean, **[05:43:46.600] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** sir? Yan. That's **[05:43:47.280] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** why you have to **[05:43:47.740] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** help me out. **[05:43:47.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So pag 20% po yung ownership mo, doon ka nagkakaroon ng significant influence. **[05:43:52.720] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Ayan, **[05:43:52.740] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** you did mention **[05:43:53.060] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** that. **[05:43:53.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tapos tinignan namin yung ano, kung ilalagay mo yung na stockholder ka sa isang corporation, siguro po hindi 1% share kasi mahalaga po sa kanyang ilagay yung stockholder siya doon sa GenCorp po. Tapos kung yung sa substance naman po, katakataka ba na magkaroon siya ng significant influence? Vice President and matagal na nilang kilala tong si Jaime Tan. So parang hindi po katakataka na para makonsider siyang partner ni Jaime Tan Cruz, meron siyang significant influence. Kaya 20 po yung ginamit namin. **[05:44:42.150] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Sir, I understand the use of the term significant influence. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, you're saying once na ma-establish mo yung tao ay may significant influence or interest? **[05:44:58.660] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** What is **[05:44:59.380] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** the correct term? **[05:45:01.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Significant interest po siguro. Okay. Baka napapagod na po ako. No **[05:45:05.660] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** problem. It's okay. Ako nga yung nalilito eh. So, significant interest. So, all you're saying naman po is, aba, pag nakita natin na yung isang tao, may interest siya doon. **[05:45:15.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ma'am, sorry po. Mali po ako. Significant influence po. **[05:45:19.400] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Okay, sure. **[05:45:20.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero yung sa SEC po, ownership lang po. Ownership naman siya. Yung sa ultimate beneficial owner, pagka po 20%, Dapat pong i-report na ultimate beneficial owner po. SEC circular, memorandum circular number 15. **[05:45:40.970] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** No problem with the number, hindi na natin may namemoration but kudos to you na nare-remember nyo pa yan. Anyway sir, you're establishing certain terms but I don't think you've answered the question na How did you come to that conclusion na meron siyang significant influence? Just because you have significant influence in one corporation, what doctrine can you cite that would state that automatic may significant influence ka din dun sa isang corporation? May ganun ho ba? **[05:46:12.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong ganung doctrine. O **[05:46:13.970] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** yun na nga. **[05:46:14.490] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So yun **[05:46:15.110] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** din po talaga sir. **[05:46:15.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sensitivity analysis po yung ginamit po namin **[05:46:17.810] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** doon. Because sir, ang sa akin lang naman po, it's not unlikely, or let me ask you the question kasi my opinion doesn't really matter. **[05:46:28.250] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Isn't it possible for an investor to have a 5% interest in one corporation, 20% in another, 90% in another? Is that not also a possibility? **[05:46:40.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Possible po. Possible po yung lahat yung sinasabi niya. Possible po yung lahat. **[05:46:44.610] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So I'm just, sir, having a problem coming to the same conclusion as you na 20% yung holding niya sa GENCOR. Kasi it could be less, it could be more. I'm having a little bit of a problem assuming why. Kasi I remember I'm taking everything you're saying very seriously na dun lang kayo sa minimum na sure kayo, yun lang ipapasok nyo sa assumptions nyo. But I don't know how you came to that **[05:47:10.980] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** minimum 20%, sir. **[05:47:12.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi po kung ako po si Jaime Tan, tapos pa-partner ko po si Baby Sara, ang City Chow po at saka ang Gen Corp po ay pareho po ng nature po ng business, fast food business. 20 po siya dito sa kabila. Tapos partner ka sa akin dito pero hindi kita bibigyan ng malaki. Parang hindi po. **[05:47:35.780] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** E **[05:47:36.140] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** paano ko naman kung wala siyang nilabas na pera? So for zero investment, binigyan kita ng 10%. Laking bagay din for me. **[05:47:44.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Donation po yun. Lapat po nakadeclare po. **[05:47:46.100] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** But **[05:47:46.340] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** we don't **[05:47:46.600] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** know what it is. Baka **[05:47:47.840] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** doon sila **[05:47:48.400] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** nagkamali na hindi nagdeclare ng donation. **[05:47:50.440] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** ano? **[05:47:51.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Is that a possibility? Bawal din po kasi makatanggap ng donation tulad po nung na-discuss ko po na paniniwala namin of nominal value lang po ang pwede niyang matanggap. Tulad nga po nang nasabi ko, in the course of work po siya lagi dahil it's a 24, 365. **[05:48:09.300] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Anyway, I'm just trying to understand your way of thinking na sa tingin niyo po si, what's his name, Jaime? Jaime **[05:48:15.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tan Cruz po. **[05:48:15.980] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Jaime Tan Cruz would not give her less than 20%. Yun lang naman yung basihan niyo. **[05:48:19.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Okay. **[05:48:20.350] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Pero sir, ang follow-up question ko din dyan, so if you assume that she had 20% in one franchise and the minimum investment in one franchise is 35 million, I'm curious why you did not attribute to her advances of 20% of 35 million? Bakit sa kanya po napunta yung buong 35 million na para na siyang 100%? owner ng operations ng Jollibee. **[05:48:49.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung limang franchise po. **[05:48:51.340] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Hindi sir, kasi every year 35, 35, 35, 35. Every year po yan. **[05:48:56.260] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ano po ito? It continues to be undeclared. Kaya po siya nag-appear every year. Pero po sa counting po natin ng undeclared assets po or income na 817, isang beses lang po yan na count. **[05:49:11.130] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** I see. Thank you for that clarification because I was of the impression that every year may additional 35. No, you're just saying hindi mo dineclare yung 35 million nung 2022 and hindi mo naman kinorek nung 2023 so it continues to be undeclared. **[05:49:32.210] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** I **[05:49:32.810] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** think I was confused sir because at some point you made a statement na Ang total investment nung limang yan is, you said 170, which I think is 35 times 5, tama ba? **[05:49:46.670] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Kasi **[05:49:47.310] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** 140 to eh, so plus another 35 is 175. So **[05:49:51.150] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** kaya **[05:49:52.530] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** ako na-conclude na that is what you were going with, na 35 million every year, and then binigyan nyo ng discount, ginawa nyo 140. 35 lang **[05:50:02.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pala. Kaya lang po namin nilalagay sa every year po para lang po ma-capture po yung undeclared po per year or SALN inaccuracy po per year pero hindi po siya kinakount ng doble po pagdating po dun sa total namin na 817. **[05:50:20.940] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Thank you, sir. Thank you. That was a big for me, clarification. **[05:50:25.800] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Furthermore sir you also said that it is your opinion that because malaki and please correct me dun sa choice of words ko no but my understanding is it is your opinion that because malaki yung investment ni VP Sarah sa Gencor because of Jollibee basically ilalagay niya talaga yan sa SALN niya I don't know if it's like a badge of ownership but hindi naman din declare sa Ang name niya sa GIS dahil meron silang dealings with the city hall. So hindi nila gagawin yun. You said that sir? **[05:51:03.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:51:04.390] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Sir, **[05:51:04.930] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** wouldn't it also be a possibility na kung talagang gusto niya mag-invest ng Jollibee business with Mr. Jaime, I keep forgetting his last name. **[05:51:13.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** JTC po. Jaime Tan Cruz po. **[05:51:16.010] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Cruz. Cruz. JTC. If gusto niya mag-invest, it's equally easy naman to put a new corporation naman kasi Hindi ho ba revelational na ipasok mo yun sa SALN mo? Kung tinatago mo, di, bakit mo lalagay sa SALN mo? That's also a possibility sir, di ba? Sorry, let me rephrase this. Compounded na yung aking questions. If **[05:51:42.170] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** you **[05:51:43.920] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** wanted to do business, **[05:51:47.040] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Private business that has no dealings with the City Hall, then you can just **[05:51:50.500] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** put up a new **[05:51:51.100] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** corporation. **[05:51:52.140] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung spin **[05:51:52.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** -off lang po. Spin-off po ng bagong partnership with the JTC under Corporation X po. Madali pong gawin yan. **[05:52:00.160] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So that could have been done. I mean, we cannot conclude na the reason why... **[05:52:07.070] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Wala yung name niya sa GIS is because tinatago niya na may dealings siya, may dealings ang isang corporation that she's a part of with the City Hall. We cannot conclude that that's the reason na wala yun dun because nilagay niya yung pangalan sa SALN niya and I think kayo din ang nagsabi na mas importante, mas mabigat ang weight ng SALN. Kayo rin ho nagsabi nun. **[05:52:32.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[05:52:32.980] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So it's possible that maiba yung conclusions niyo. **[05:52:36.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung meron pong dokumento, dalhin lang po at babaguhin ko po yung report ko. **[05:52:40.910] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** No, but even as it stands now, what I said are possibilities. **[05:52:45.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, possible. Possibilities po. Everything po is possible. **[05:52:49.490] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Yes. **[05:52:57.290] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Would you have any reason to make assumptions as to why the Vice President declared Gencor in her salon in 2024 and yet meron ng Jollibee franchise ang Gencor in 2022. Did you look into that? And do you have a theory about that? **[05:53:24.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po kasi alam kung kailan po nadadagdagan yung branches po ng Gencor. **[05:53:31.710] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Madali **[05:53:32.310] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** naman siguro tingnan yun kasi... **[05:53:34.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hirap po. Ang late po ng oras namin. **[05:53:37.150] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Kulang ba? Kulang din sa tao? **[05:53:38.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[05:53:39.490] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So hindi nyo **[05:53:42.690] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** na natingnan yun sir. Okay lang. So I'll go on to another point. Thank you for that. Doon din ako nahilo kasi doon sa transaction na yan eh. Sir, doon naman sa table 25, page 20 of your report, ito po yung tungkol sa mga credit card ni Atty. Manz Carpio. Ang sinabi nyo doon sa report nyo is this is **[05:54:04.480] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** basically you're showing this I guess to establish and then in quotes banking behavior that may warrant further review and investigation. What banking behaviors exactly did you want to establish or are you trying to establish that would warrant Further review and investigation. The fact that namimili sa isang kilalang discount store si Atty. Manz Carpio because Mega Donkey is a discount store. So ang ini-establish ba natin is dyan siya sa discount store namimili? Are we establishing that mahilig sa sports gear si **[05:54:53.690] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Atorniman, Scarpio. I'm just curious what is that behavior that we are trying to establish? **[05:54:59.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. So ang thinking po namin, halimbawa po dito po sa yung Nike na lang po muna. **[05:55:07.110] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Yes, **[05:55:07.330] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** sir. **[05:55:07.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung Nike po na December 20, December 28 po ba? Posting date, transaction date, December 27. Isang araw lang, isang transaction lang, dalawang transaction, isang... Isang purchase po yan or isang araw. 206 at 93 is 300,000 pesos plus. **[05:55:34.180] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Okay. So your point sir is napakagastos niya sa sports? **[05:55:40.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, di naman po niya masusot po yan lahat. Obvious naman po na pwede po niyang ipamigay. **[05:55:47.260] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Obvious naman. **[05:55:47.940] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Pero na-establish **[05:55:49.860] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** nyo **[05:55:49.980] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** ba sa report **[05:55:50.440] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** nyo yun na possible na pinamimigay niya ito? **[05:55:53.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po kaming conclusion sa report pagdating po dyan. **[05:55:56.040] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So ano nga **[05:55:56.740] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** po yung **[05:55:56.920] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** behavior? **[05:55:57.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang ordinaryong tawa po kasi hindi po bibili ng ganyan pong kalaking halaga sa Nike store. **[05:56:08.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So, maari pong may dahilan. E di kung ma-prove yung dahilan na yun, di okay na po. Dahil sinabi lang naman warrants for their investigation po. **[05:56:17.440] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Share **[05:56:17.600] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** ko lang po nung... Nung I had the privilege of being selected sa national team ng volleyball, wala akong ka-sponsor-sponsor yung team namin except for of course the Philippine government that was sending us to Japan to compete in the Asian Volleyball Championship. So, daddy ko po yung nilapitan ko at nagbigay siya at that time mga, I can't remember kung 20 or 30 thousand pesos in 1983. I don't know what that value is. Maybe that's worth 200 thousand. So, if somebody sa sports, supporter, it is possible naman na magbigay siya ng ganon. Possible, sir. **[05:56:54.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Nabanggit nga rin po ng defense kanina, nag-abroad o may grupong pinakain or sa Nike Pavilion, merong in-sponsor. Pwede po yun. Wala po ito sa 817 at parang flinag lang po namin. **[05:57:10.240] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** O, kasi siyempre nakikita po natin kahit na as a judge ay Try my best not to be influenced by external factors. Pero tao lang tayo, may mga nakikita din tayo. Malayo ho ito sa mga Nepo baby na nagpapakita ng mga luxury bags na 500,000, sapatos, relo na 1 million, 2 million. Kaya I genuinely was curious kung ano ba yung behavior na gusto nyong ma-establish doon. But I think you've responded. I just wanted to give you a chance to respond to that. So kung wala nakiidadagdag, I think this is my one last point. **[05:57:58.070] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Dun ho sa ano, dun ho sa, I forgot the page number no, but dun sa table, I think nabanggit ni Sen. Camille, I forgot what page, page 30. 37, 38, 39, yung the totals, yung may 817 million. **[05:58:12.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo, table 39 to. **[05:58:14.300] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Would you be able to tell us offhand, alin dun ang based on assumptions? Like katulad nung sa yung napag-usapan natin na contributions or advances niya sa ano sa GenCorp, yung mga ganun. Would you be able to tell us? **[05:58:33.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nakahiwalay po na column yung GenCorp dahil alam ko po na contentious issue po ito. Nakahiwalay po na column siya. **[05:58:40.110] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Anong page ulit sir? Titingnan ko lang. **[05:58:41.910] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Ah, well. **[05:58:43.370] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** What was it? 37? **[05:58:44.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron po sa 37. **[05:58:48.130] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** May 37 and 39. Ayun, nakahiwalay nga, dalawa nga. **[05:58:53.170] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So what you're saying is yung sa GENCOR na lang yung kinoconsider niyong with assumptions? **[05:58:58.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yun po yung contentious po dahil... **[05:59:01.330] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Okay. So hinahighlight niyo na... **[05:59:03.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hinahighlight ko para... **[05:59:04.550] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Medyo **[05:59:05.010] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** yan, aralin niyo pa. **[05:59:06.050] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Bigyan niyo ng chance yung mga judges po. Hindi ko po nilulubog dito. Just to be transparent po. **[05:59:11.530] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** So ano yung total nun? **[05:59:13.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 200 po. **[05:59:15.200] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** 200... **[05:59:15.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 201 po yata. 211, sorry. **[05:59:20.380] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Anong column yun? Can you help me **[05:59:22.140] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** find it? **[05:59:22.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Second to... We're talking **[05:59:25.660] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** about which table again? Table 39 or 30? **[05:59:29.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Table 39. **[05:59:31.670] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Table 39 and then column? **[05:59:34.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Second **[05:59:35.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** to the last column. Second to the last po sa kanan. **[05:59:39.640] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Okay. What's the number again? **[05:59:42.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I think it's 211. **[05:59:44.900] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** I'm looking at the wrong table. Yeah, 211. **[05:59:52.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yeah, 211. **[05:59:59.270] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** I'm looking at the same. **[06:00:02.040] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Sorry, hindi ko makita yung 211 sa ano eh. **[06:00:05.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ay ano po, wala po kasing total yung sa... **[06:00:07.820] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Ah, **[06:00:08.280] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** walang total. **[06:00:08.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** In-add ko lang po yung 55, sorry po, tsaka... **[06:00:11.260] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** 55, 74, and 82. **[06:00:12.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo, **[06:00:13.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yun lang po. **[06:00:13.440] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Okay, **[06:00:13.720] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** so you're saying, so other than 211, so you're saying 817 million minus 211, that would be around 600. Diyan... You have a high degree of certainty with that amount or absolute certainty, sir. Ano ba? Ano yan? Absolute high degree? **[06:00:34.510] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Whatever **[06:00:35.360] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** you're comfortable **[06:00:37.680] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** saying, sir. Oo, kaya na tinanggal ko yung Gen 4 eh. **[06:00:41.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not controversial amounts for me. **[06:00:44.330] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Okay. Sige. So, I'm **[06:00:51.220] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** looking at your conclusion and... **[06:00:59.000] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Basically, your conclusion says, based on the foregoing, our conclusions are as follows. VP Sara's SALN for the year blah blah blah were untruthful. Number two, VP Sara during her vice presidency continued to participate in various businesses. Number three, her unexplained wealth based only on the limited documents examined, excluding, I think this is a **[06:01:17.120] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** crucial one, number three, her unexplained wealth based only on the limited documents examined, excluding documents in the possession of VP Sara and spouses amount to 817 million. And then number four, for the above-mentioned infringement which happened in 2022 to 2025, established a pattern of constitutional violation year on year, and then five, apart from the Constitution, other laws were violated, and you mentioned the laws. Would you say, sir, that, and now this is where we talk as lawyers, no? The basic protection of due process is observed when you conclude and No longer mentioned that certain assumptions were made. **[06:02:02.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Oh, it's all in the report po. **[06:02:04.820] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Sir, pero in the conclusion kasi sir, yung report nyo is 39 pages. Most of which you will not understand unless you read the 50-page annex. **[06:02:15.720] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Sir, **[06:02:17.020] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** let me finish lang para buo yung question natin. So that's almost 100 pages. So clearly, and I don't know, it's up to each judge who they would consult with. Me, I tried my best to understand but I also have to discuss with my lawyers and I do have one tax lawyer, CPA lawyer katulad ninyo. Sana kay singaling ninyo. I would **[06:02:43.350] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** think that it's prudent, and I'm asking your opinion, that in the conclusion, masabi naman na there are, in the same way that you say may require further investigation, that i-highlight din na there are certain assumptions that were made here that may alter some parts of this report. **[06:03:04.290] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Mas prudent kaya ho yun? **[06:03:10.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I **[06:03:11.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** think ang report ko po kasi is a forensic report po. and it's based on my judgment. At tulad nga po nang nasabi ko, maaari pong ituloy ang forensic report, maaari pong itigil na rin ngayon. Kung wala po kasi yung gen corp po **[06:03:30.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa computation, hindi pa rin po magbabago yung conclusion namin. **[06:03:37.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So pagka sinabi ko po na may mga assumptions dito, parang it will put into question po yung buo pong na-compute po namin na unexplained wealth. Kasi po naniniwala naman kami na kung mawala man yung GenCorp, buo pa rin po siya. And tulad nga po nang nasabi ko earlier, meron pa pong mga ibang pwedeng ipasok dyan eh. **[06:04:03.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron **[06:04:03.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pa pong pwedeng ipasok sa report na hindi namin naipasok because **[06:04:07.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** of **[06:04:08.280] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Lack **[06:04:08.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** of time, etc. **[06:04:10.400] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Manpower. Naintindihan ko lang po sir yun. Ang sakin lang, yung conclusion lang natin. **[06:04:14.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kaya po po hindi mailagay yun. It will cast into doubt the entire thing. And kaya po na-explain naman po sa loob yung mga basis namin. Bakit po ako magsasabi na ito yung conclusion ko pero hindi pa ako sigurado sa conclusion ko ha. Yung sinasabi ko po is based on what we've seen, sapat na to para masabi that there are assets which are manifest acquired. or owned which are manifestly disproportionate to our income. **[06:04:42.240] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** I understand sir, but you just said now that if you would have to put a statement that says, that reminds people that there are certain assumptions that would be made that would refute your conclusion. But isn't that what you are supposed to present to us? Na the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Such that kung may assumptions nga po na we have to be mindful of these assumptions, dapat hindi natatago yun dun sa almost 100 page report. Dapat clear na clear po sa atin yun. **[06:05:15.670] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** You understand **[06:05:16.430] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** our job, no, sir? **[06:05:17.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ah, po. Naintindihan ko po. Well, naintindihan ko rin po na babasahin nyo rin po naman lahat po ng pages na report. **[06:05:22.810] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Baka hindi huli namin kaya, sir. Kahit ako na sa legal side, okay makapagbasahan, pero yung accounting, umiikot din yung utak ko. So, yun lang naman yung sa akin, sir, na... So, **[06:05:35.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** parang... **[06:05:35.810] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** I **[06:05:36.050] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** was waiting to see... Kung **[06:05:37.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ilalagay ko po na baka yung GenCorp po ay hindi sigurado po, ganun. **[06:05:42.980] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Well, if **[06:05:43.660] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** that's your **[06:05:43.980] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** conclusion, then **[06:05:44.920] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** dapat **[06:05:45.540] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** sana **[06:05:45.880] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** siguro nakasabi doon. **[06:05:47.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi po, sa ngayon po sa judgment ko po, at ginamit naming sensitivity analysis, conservative na po yung 20%. And maaari pong sa... Pag-uusap natin ngayon, ngayon **[06:06:00.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po na naintindihan nyo, kaya po namin hiniwala yun. Because I know it can be controversial. Pero hindi porkit controversial siya, hindi na po ako pwede magkaroon po ng professional judgment on that matter. **[06:06:12.900] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** Well, I will just leave you with this, Mr. Witness. In a case that is almost 100 years old, 1940, so short of 14 years, Angtibay v. Court of Industrial Relations, I'm not going to ask you for these citations kasi as lawyers din po tayo numememorize ng citation pero I'm sure naalala niyo po yung Angtibay due process. **[06:06:33.580] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** ano ho to. **[06:06:37.030] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano** May decision dito that is landmark case for due process. The Supreme Court ruled that an administrative body's decision must be supported by substantial evidence, etc., etc., etc., and forbids an investigative tribunal from relying on Sweeping conclusions or off-the-record assumptions. So may ganun ho. Kaya sa akin lang na malaman talaga namin ng buong-buo ano dyan yung question. Tapos bahala rin kami mag-review po sir. May ganun tayo. And then this was reiterated more or less the same principle in the very latest Duterte case and in a string of cases. So that's the purpose of... Clarifying these issues with you sir and the principals both in law and accounting. Thank you so much for your time sir. **[06:07:23.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maraming salamat din po. **[06:07:24.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you Senator Judge Pia with the indulgence of Senator Judge Padilla. According to Annika, Senator Judge Zubiri manifested earlier his intention to make interjections so we will recognize Senator Judge Zubiri ahead of Senator Judge Padilla. You have a variable period of two minutes sir. You may proceed when you're ready. **[06:07:45.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly turn on the mic of Senator Judge Zubiri. **[06:07:51.180] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Yeah, **[06:07:53.320] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon, Dr. Alex. **[06:07:57.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang hapon po, Honorable Judge Zubiri. **[06:08:00.440] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Thank you. Mabilis lang po ito. Simpleng tanong lang po. **[06:08:05.540] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Noong unang mga two to three weeks ago, naglabas po ng statement nga yung prosecution na meron daw ilalabas ang AMLC more or less na report na 4.4 billion tapos present ka po ng AMLC yung 4.4 billion na suspicious transactions. Hindi masyadong na-take up po ito sa mga tanong ng ating mga prosecutors po sa inyo. Yan po ba'y sinilip din po ninyo itong 4.4 billion? Kasi parang napaka-misleading. Your report basically says 800, ilan ba yan? 817? Million, but this is for four years na nakaupo si Vice Presidente Sara Duterte. Paano po yung sa AMLC? How do you reconcile that? **[06:08:53.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ito pong, ito pong Honorable Zubiri, Ito po yung prior po sa 2022. **[06:08:59.480] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Yan po ang sinabi po sa AMLC report. I think yung sinabi nila 4.4 billion, buo na po yan from 2007 until 2024. **[06:09:09.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ako **[06:09:10.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po kasi nagtitake po ako ng... Direction po sa prosecution kung ano po yung titignan. Tapos sa oras po na nalalabi, saan ba natin pwedeng ibuhos ang ating work at ang ating mga efforts. At ang sabi po ng prosecution sa akin, 2022 to 2025 nung nanunukulan siyang vice president. So yun po yung tinignan ko. na mainly. So, **[06:09:43.990] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** simple yung salita, hindi nyo pa nasisilip yung mga suspicions transactions before 2022? **[06:09:51.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Partially lang. Partial lang po eh, partial. Parang sobrang partial po. Pero pagka ginamit ko po yung sarili ko para doon, baka hindi ko po matapos yung 22 to 25 po na. **[06:10:05.040] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** But I believe the court was furnished, Mr. Presiding Officer. I believe the court was furnished the documents from AMLC on what these particular suspicious transactions are. It is **[06:10:15.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** with the Clerk of Court, that is correct, Senator Judge Javiri. However, the Senator judges can refer to it in relation to their interjections. **[06:10:23.340] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** But **[06:10:23.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** it has not yet been formally offered nor admitted by the court. **[06:10:28.800] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Maybe just for the benefit of the judges of this... impeachment court. Maybe the court can just give us a rundown of the list that was given by the AMLC, Your Honor, for our perusal and not to be brought out in public. **[06:10:42.730] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** The **[06:10:42.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** clerk of court is directed to comply with the request of Senator Judge Zubiri. **[06:10:47.550] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Sa lahat ng ginawa mong investigasyon sa apat na taon, may na-encounter ba po kayo mga foreign currency accounts or foreign bank accounts? **[06:10:58.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Una po, wala pong bank statements on foreign currency accounts dahil sa aking pagkakaalam hindi po siya inattempt na isabbi na. Kung meron mang foreign currency accounts na nakita kami, ito po yung sa remittance po sa Cale88 kung saan po yung mga accounts po na pinasukan po nung mga foreign currency remittances po ay kakaiba po dun sa mga local Bank accounts po na pinapasukan po ng mga local transactions. Pero hindi po namin nakita yung bank statement na yun po. Wala po ako nakitang bank statement ng foreign currency deposit accounts. **[06:11:42.070] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Sa katapusan po, Mr. Presiding Officer, sa binanggit po ng ating kasamaan, Sen. Pia Cayetano, on your report, kung sa English pa, you stand by report. **[06:11:52.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:11:53.790] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** 100%. **[06:11:54.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:11:55.370] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Maraming salamat po sa presiding officer. **[06:11:57.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Padilla has recognized you have a variable period of two minutes. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. **[06:12:03.350] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Maraming salamat po aming tagapamahal ng hukong. **[06:12:09.160] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Meron po sana akong katanungan para po sa prosecution. **[06:12:19.580] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Magandang hapon po. **[06:12:22.640] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Sir Chell, magandang hapon po. **[06:12:25.780] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Good afternoon po, sir. **[06:12:28.100] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Masasabi ko po na Tayo'y magkakilala at maituturing ko po kayong kaibigan sa Facebook. **[06:12:39.970] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Bagamat tayo po'y hindi politically inclined sa isa't isa, mataas po ang respeto ko po sa inyo. **[06:12:48.920] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Gano'n din po sa panig ko. **[06:12:51.060] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Opo. Ginoong Chel? Pwede po ba ngayon ang tawag ko sa inyo? Ginoong Chel? Opo. Opo. Ginoong Chel? Gano'n niyo po kakilala yung ating saksi? **[06:13:04.170] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Minsan lang po yata kami nagsama sa isang forum. I believe that was a year or two ago. Ayun lang po yung pagkakilala ko sa kanya bago po itong impeachment case. Opo. **[06:13:16.950] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Parang tayo rin po, ganyan. Masasabi po bang gano'n din pagkakakilala po ninyo sa kanya? **[06:13:23.310] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** I suppose po, Your Honor. **[06:13:25.210] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Opo. **[06:13:28.470] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Nabalitaan niyo rin po na minsan, Yung ating pong witness ay naging nagtrabaho sa Isla Lipana and Company. **[06:13:39.570] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Opo. **[06:13:40.070] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Opo. **[06:13:40.550] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Opo. Na ito pong company neto ay ginawang independent auditor ng isang FFT Group of Companies. **[06:13:55.700] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Ano po yan? **[06:13:57.140] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Opo. Ito pong company neto Meron po itong sinasabi kung nandiyan po siguro baka makita din po ninyo. **[06:14:07.500] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Pwede pong **[06:14:10.530] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Meron pong reklamo dito sa company neto na ito daw po ay ng biktima ng mga OFW na marami pong bouncing checks. **[06:14:26.520] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** ang **[06:14:29.450] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Isinabit nitong MFT Group of Companies na umaabot po sa limang bilyon. Ang tanong ko po, hindi niyo po ba alam na yung Isla Lipana ang independent auditor nitong MFT Group of Companies? **[06:14:49.390] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Ang alam ko po ay itong MFT Group of Companies ay hindi po kasama sa mga kasong ito. Ang ating testigo si Atty. Alex Cabrera. **[06:15:03.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Pero siya po ang chairman nung panahon na iyon? Pwede po bang malaman natin kung si... pwede po natin maitanong ang ating witness? Atty. **[06:15:14.180] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Sir Atty. Magandang hapon po. **[06:15:16.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Magandang hapon po. Opo. **[06:15:20.640] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Kayo po ay naging chairman ng Isla Lipana? **[06:15:25.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Tama po. **[06:15:27.140] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Panahon pong ano ito? Ano pong panahon kayo naging chairman? **[06:15:30.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 2013 hanggang 2021. **[06:15:33.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** 2021. Opo. Familiar po sa inyo ang MFT Group of Companies? **[06:15:38.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. Yan po yung ang aming pong kumpanya ang Isla Lipanen Company ay 104 years old po. **[06:15:47.800] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Opo. **[06:15:48.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At meron po kaming mga 3,000 na kliyente. At sa 104 years of existence po namin, ngayon lang po kami na Nadamay po sa ganyang uri ng problema. **[06:16:03.460] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Sa panahon niyo po? Sa **[06:16:03.980] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** panahon niyo **[06:16:04.460] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** po. **[06:16:04.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung kaso po nangyari po ay tapos na po yung aking term. **[06:16:11.280] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** 2018 to 2021 po. **[06:16:13.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yan po yung financial statement po na kinikwestiyon. Hindi po sa akin dumaan yan. Pero yung kaso po nung nagkaroon po ng... **[06:16:21.240] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Paano po **[06:16:21.940] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** yun? Hindi **[06:16:22.440] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** sa inyo dumaan? Paano po yun? Kayo po **[06:16:24.680] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** ang chairman, hindi dumaan sa **[06:16:26.020] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** inyo. **[06:16:26.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong chairman na kakayanin pong dumaan po sa kanya. **[06:16:30.760] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Ibig niyo pong **[06:16:31.940] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** sabihin, ito po nangyayari lahat ito sa panahon po ninyo at hindi niyo po alam. Sagot lang po, oo lang o tama ba o mali. **[06:16:38.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Alam **[06:16:43.810] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ko na po ngayon. **[06:16:45.390] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Sa panahon po ninyo? **[06:16:46.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nung panahon po yun, wala pa pong nangyayari. At hindi po ibig sabihin na meron pong mali. **[06:16:52.560] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Paano pong **[06:16:53.360] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** walang mali? **[06:16:54.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Paano po kaya **[06:16:55.880] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** yung 5 billion na bouncing checks? Paano po kaya yung mga OFW na **[06:17:00.340] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** napahamak? E kayo **[06:17:03.880] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** po ang nagpatunay na sila ay financially healthy. Kayo po ang nagpatunay. Ang isla Lipana ang nagsabi na wala ang kapoblema ang MFT group of companies. **[06:17:20.600] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Senator Robin, gustong gusto ko po siyang sagutin. Ang kaso po ay ang involving po two of our partners. **[06:17:30.260] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Simple lang **[06:17:31.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** naman po kasi **[06:17:31.680] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** yung tanong ko. Ang haba po ng sagot nyo. Kayo po ba yung chairman nung panahon na yun? **[06:17:36.120] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Chairman po nung 2018? **[06:17:37.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Chairman po ko nung 2018. **[06:17:38.960] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Hanggang 2021? **[06:17:40.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hanggang 2021 po. Yung lang po. **[06:17:41.480] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Yung lang po. **[06:17:41.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero wala po kaso noon. **[06:17:43.860] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** May kaso nga po ngayon sa panahon ninyo. **[06:17:46.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nung po pa wala po. **[06:17:49.070] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Okay po, balik po tayo sa inyo, Sir Chell. Ngayon po, narinig po ninyo, so nung panahon niya, nagsabi po yung Isla Lipana na financially healthy itong MFT Group of Companies, na hindi naman po pala at ngayon ay kinakasuhan na. So okay lang po ba sa inyo yun, Sir Chell, na itong ating witness, nung panahon niya, na siya ay chairman, ay nagkaroon ng sabit itong East Lalipana na for 100 years ay walang sabit. Pero sa panahon niya, sumabit. **[06:18:26.730] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Buong buo po ang tiwala ko kay Atty. Cabrera. Ang pagkaintindi ko po sa kaso ng **[06:18:31.930] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** iyan, ang naging kliyente ng East Lalipana ay yung parent company lang po. At ang alam ko, yung nagkaproblema na nabanggit po ninyo, Sen. Robin, ay involve the subsidiaries. Who were not engaged by or who were not served by Isla Lipana? **[06:18:53.140] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Well, yan po ang hindi sinasabi ng SEC. Yun pong SEC ang nagsasabi na sumabit itong MFT Group of Companies na yung Isla Lipana and Company ang independent auditor at yun po ay sa panahon po ni ginuong witness. Balik naman po ako sa ibang katanungan. Sa inyo po, mahal naming witness, kayo po ay membro ng Integrity Initiative Incorporated. **[06:19:25.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:19:26.540] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Kayo din po ay membro ng Justice Reform Initiative. **[06:19:33.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[06:19:33.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[06:19:34.730] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** At kayo din po pala ay naging membro din ng AFP Multisectoral Governance Committee. **[06:19:43.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hanggang ngayon po. **[06:19:44.320] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Ay, opo, opo. Naging member naman po ako din yan, Strategic Communication. Kayo din po pala ay naging **[06:19:55.360] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** tagapagsalita ng Institute for Solidarity in Asia? **[06:20:00.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Spokesperson po, hindi po. **[06:20:01.740] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Pero **[06:20:02.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** member po ako ng Institute of Solidarity for Asia. **[06:20:05.260] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Ah, member po kayo yan? **[06:20:06.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. Board of Trustee po. **[06:20:07.980] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Apo. Ang tanong ko po, bakit po kayo hindi nag-member ng Institute? of Certified Forensic Accountants of the Philippines. **[06:20:16.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Bakit po ngayon hindi nag-member niyan? Salamat po sa katanungan. **[06:20:23.170] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nung naging partner po ako, 9 years na po ako nagpa-practice. **[06:20:28.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 11 years na po ako nagpa-practice nung tinayo po ang Association of Certified Fraud Examiners. Ngayon po ito po ay tinayo po ng isang organisasyon. Yan po ay hindi po yan lisensya. Yan po ay isang certification lamang. Yung license ko po as a CPA and as a lawyer is more than enough po to practice forensic. Yung pong mga nag-iexam po for CFE, ang requirement po nila pag nakapasa po sila ng exam, hindi po sila not necessarily accountant po kahit saan course po. Pero ang requirement po nila pag nakapasa po ng exam, kailangan po nilang magpractice ng two years po lamang Direct or indirect about fraud investigations bago po sila bigyan ng certificate po na certified fraud examiner. Ngayon dun po sa two years na yun, magaan po yung requirement eh kasi direct or indirect. Two years lang po. Yung mga kabataan po sa amin na pumapasok ng mga bata pa po, nagtitake po sila ng mga CFA. Tinitrain po namin sila kung paano po mag gumawa po ng forensic audit kasi kailangan po nila ng 2 years bago po magka lisensya. Nung itinayo po ang Association of Certified Fraud Examiners po sa Pilipinas noong 2001 ay 11 years na po yata ako nagpa-practice po noon. Kaya kung baga po hindi ko na po siya talaga **[06:22:04.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Alam niyo po yung exam, Honorable Senator Robin. Yung exam po niya, tinatanong po kayo ng internal control. Ano po ang balance sheet? Tapos tinatanong po kayo tungkol sa mga criminal laws po. **[06:22:20.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang accounting po ay napakalawak po at napakalalim po sa aspeto po na yun, yung mga about internal control. At ang legal subject naman po, ang law naman po, ay napakalaki po at napakalawak compared po sa kinukover po ng isang exam po ng CFE. So parang **[06:22:40.610] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** sinasabi nyo po, sir, na hindi nyo kailangan nito? **[06:22:43.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko na po siya talaga kailangan po. **[06:22:45.770] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Sa **[06:22:46.250] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** palagay nyo po ba itong Institute of Certified Forensic Accountants of the Philippines, wala itong silbi? Parang ganun po. **[06:22:56.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ako po, **[06:22:57.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ma... Nakakatulong po sila sa pagpaparami po ng certified fraud examiners po na kailangan po ng ating bansa. So, hindi po siya walang silbi. Malaki po ang maitutulong yan sa pagpaparami po ng certified fraud examiners po dito sa atin. Pero ulitin ko lamang po, certification po yan, hindi po yan na bigay po ng gobyerno na lisensya. And any accountant, any lawyer, in fact, can practice forensic investigation services kahit po wala po ng ano. **[06:23:31.960] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Yung salita pong certified, hindi po yun importante **[06:23:35.700] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** sa **[06:23:36.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** inyo? **[06:23:36.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Certified po yun ng organization na kailangan nyo po mag-exam. Tapos kailangan nyo lamang po ng two years experience. Honorable Senator Robin, 37 years na po ako. Huwag naman po sanang tawaran po. compared po sa two years na kailangan **[06:23:53.010] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** naman. Hindi ko naman **[06:23:53.350] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** po, hindi ko naman po kayo, pasensya na po kung ganun po ang dating. Hindi naman po, ano lang po yun, tanong lang po. Kasi para po sa akin, ay napakahalaga nung certify. Pero kung sa inyo po, sa palagay nyo, ay hindi naman sa ganun kahalaga. Okay po yun, hindi ko po kayo inuhusgahan, sir. Ano lang po yun, tanong lang po yung sa akin. Pangalawang tanong po, kanina, **[06:24:18.060] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Madalas kong marinig, sinasabi ninyo, minadali kayo. Parang wala kayong masyadong time. Sir, pinag-uusapan po natin ang pag-i-impeach sa ibinoto ng tao ng 30 million votes. Tama po bang sabihin natin na wala kayong time? Na hindi kayo masyado binigyan ng oras at minadali ito? Itong ginawa nyo pong forensic na **[06:24:49.450] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Ano pong tawag nyo dito? Forensic analysis? **[06:24:52.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Forensic analysis po. Yun **[06:24:54.210] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** po. Opo. Yun po ba? Sa palagay po nyo ba? Fair po ba yun? Kasi alam nyo po, ang unang-unang ibinilin sa amin dito, nung kami po ay may mga bisita na naging Supreme Court Chief Justice. Fairness, sabi niya. Importante yung fairness. Sa inyo po, sa inyo po bang palagay? Tama yung salitang wala kayong masyadong time nung ginawa nyo ito. Minadali. So **[06:25:23.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ako po yung nagtrabaho po sa isang audit firm at lahat po ng trabaho po doon ay minamadali. Ang mga kliyente po namin lahat po rushan. So mabilisan po. Lagi pong rush ang trabaho. **[06:25:36.840] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Pero ito **[06:25:38.060] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** po ay impeachment po ito eh. **[06:25:40.580] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Ito **[06:25:41.060] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** po ang isang bagay na dapat ay binibigyan natin ng tamang panahon. Yun lamang po. So sinasabi niyo po na talagang minadali niyo. **[06:25:48.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kailangan po ang kabuli ng mga deadline. Hindi po ibig sabihin na minadali ay hindi na po namin ginawa ng mabuti ang trabaho po namin. Ginawa po namin ng mabuti ang trabaho po namin. **[06:25:59.500] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** So iba na po **[06:26:00.480] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** ngayon, ginawa niyo ng mabuti. Iba na po, iba na po. Minadali o ginawa niyo **[06:26:06.320] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** mabuti? **[06:26:06.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po siya inconsistent. Kahit po kayo nagmamadali, pwede niyo pong gawing mabuti po ang inyong trabaho. Kahit po mabagal, pwede niyo pa rin pong gawing mabuti ang trabaho. Ang mahalaga po doon ay dedicated po kayo sa ginagawa po ninyo. **[06:26:19.660] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Opo, **[06:26:19.700] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** kasi kanina na sa argumento po ninyo ni Sen. Pia Caetano na isa ring abogado, ilang beses po niyang inulit. Nasa usaping ito, mahirap yung... Naga-assume lang tayo. **[06:26:35.380] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Napakahalaga po nun kasi alam nyo, ito po'y hindi basta-basta kaso. Ito po ay impeachment po ito. Tayo po ay nagtatanggal ng isang opisyal na binoto ng taong bayan. Yun lamang po ang aking gustong ipaalala sa inyo, Sir, na hindi po katanggap-tanggap yung mga salitang minadali, yung wala ng oras, assumption. Yan po yung mga bagay na para po sa akin, kasi kayo din po kanina nagsasabi kayo na ito po yung sa tingin ninyo. Yan. Eh yun din po sa tingin ko. At ako po ay pinangahawakan natin ang saligang batas na kailangan na ibigyan natin ng due process ang lahat ng bagay. Yun lamang po kung sa palagay po ninyo ginawa nyo yung trabaho ninyo ay... sa inyo po yan. Sa amin naman po, gagawin din namin ang trabaho namin na hindi namin ito mamadiliin. Hindi rin po kami magkukulang ng oras at hihingin po namin sa aming Senate President at sa aming Tagapamahalang Hukom na huwag nating madaliin ito. Dahil itong bagay na ito, nakasalalay dito ang 32 million votes ng taong bayan. Bilang huling tanong na lang po. Tama po ba nung December 2025 nagkita kayo ni Mayor Lenny Robredo? **[06:28:07.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:28:08.260] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Yun lamang po. Maraming salamat **[06:28:10.160] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** po. **[06:28:10.380] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** Thank **[06:28:10.720] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla** you po. **[06:28:11.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Senator Judge Padilla. **[06:28:16.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Nabitin ako ng konti doon. Akala ko may follow-up eh. Senator Judge Villanueva is recognized. You may proceed, sir. **[06:28:25.190] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. President. **[06:28:29.830] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Ganda nga hapon po ulit. Atty. Alex, nais kong magtanong muli for my second round regarding Cale88. Nais kong makita yung pagtutugma ng ating report dito sa financial records sa operasyon ng negosyo. At dito po sa inyong report, it states that based on the local bank accounts examined, The company's recorded revenues were understated by an average of approximately 51% year on year. So gusto ko makita yung buong value nitong kumpanya kasi doon sa computed local bank na undeclared inflows na inyong ginawa, 2023 2.33 million, 2024, 22.18 million, and 2025, 10.78 million. Gusto kong malaman, Atty. Cabrera, when you reconciled itong Cal88's bank inflows against its declared revenues and audited financial statements, ano po yung major discrepancies na inyo pong nakita? Natanggal nyo po ba yung Tinatawag na for example, internal transfers, duplicate reporting, already recorded sales. At dito yung sa initial na binigay. loans or shareholder funding, foreign currency proceeds, later converted into peso. Gusto ko natin sana malaman, magkano po kaya yung talagang amount na talagang hindi ninyo ma-reconcile dun sa books, tax returns, at legitimate sources of funds? **[06:30:16.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung amount po? Meron lang po kaming discrepancy po lang sa AMLA. Report po. Yung 319 po tsaka 222. **[06:30:25.860] Sen. Joel Villanueva** 319 versus **[06:30:26.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 222. **[06:30:28.640] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Okay. **[06:30:29.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero na-reconcile na rin po namin yun. Na talaga po meron po kami mga nakitang pairing transactions, tinanggal po namin yung isa. Magkaiba naman po kasi kami nang ginagawa ng AMLA. Yung AMLA po nagpa-flag. Tapos kami naman po, kinukuha namin yung receipts. **[06:30:46.810] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And you **[06:30:47.350] Sen. Joel Villanueva** analyze. And **[06:30:49.090] Sen. Joel Villanueva** dun sa adjustments na nakikita niyo po, for example, same company transfers, duplicate regulatory entries, collections of sales already booked, financing, shareholder advances, pati yung foreign exchange conversion into local accounts. What did you see here, sir? **[06:31:11.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron pong credit memo sa local bank accounts. na nakikita kami pero hindi po namin na alam kung saang account na ang gagaling. **[06:31:23.640] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Ah ganoon. **[06:31:24.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Credit memo po ibig sabihin na nasa isang banko po yun. Tapos meron pong **[06:31:32.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pumapasok na galing po sa ibang bangko pero hindi ko po alam kung saan po nang gagaling. **[06:31:37.940] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Gusto kong susugan itong kumpanya na ito and I will share with you later kasi I'm being asked when I raced yesterday or last time yung dalawang empleyado. Pero ayon po sa inyong findings. **[06:31:53.130] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Wala ring inventory of raw materials. Do you **[06:31:56.350] Sen. Joel Villanueva** recall that? **[06:31:56.990] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And **[06:31:57.670] Sen. Joel Villanueva** supplies, no? Based on your professional experience po ba? Both as an accountant and fraud analyst, too ba pwedeng mangyari? Kasi I just can't, as a observer, no? Parang ang nangyayari po, and correct me if I'm wrong please, every December 30 o sa huling taon, Wala akong inventory. Ibig sabihin po ba nang simot lahat? Walang saging, walang asukal, walang packaging, etc. Yun ho yung lumalabas sa report nyo. Gusto ko lang i-clarify. **[06:32:30.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:32:31.300] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Is that correct? **[06:32:32.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po yan. Meron lang po silang inventory ng maliit na finished goods po. Pero wala po silang raw material supplies, work in process inventory. Wala po na. **[06:32:42.240] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And for you as an analyst, what... **[06:32:47.820] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Is this possible? Some manufacturing business? **[06:32:51.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung manufacturer po kayo, hindi po pwede. Kasi ibig sabihin po nun, titigil po talaga yung trabaho. At saka hindi po talaga natural na wala po kayong inventory dahil kasama po yan sa mga materials na ginagamit para po makapag-export. **[06:33:08.800] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And **[06:33:09.440] Sen. Joel Villanueva** dito nakita ko yung audited financial statement na inyong pinuna. Manage. At nung pong, if I recall it right, I think it's the BIR na witness nagsabi po na, kasi tinanong ko po eh, kung losing yan, sino yung nagpopondo? Ang naging sagot po ay lumalabas sa mga records na iyong management po yung nagpopondo o sumasagot po para magpatuloy yung operasyon, management daw. Yun yung sabi ng BIR, no? And ang tanong ko, meron po ba talagang Pondo na binigay ang management para sa operations na ito? May nakikita po kayo **[06:33:50.200] Sen. Joel Villanueva** doon sa financial statement? **[06:33:51.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron lang po **[06:33:51.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung advances po. Advances from shareholders, yun lang po yung pondong na ibigay niya kasi halos wala pong capital yung Cale88 eh. Pero even kasama po yung advances na yun, kulang pa rin po yun para masustain po yung ganyan pong level ng operations. **[06:34:08.650] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Ulitin ko po, kanina binanggit ko po yung nasa report, approximately 51% year on year is being understated. What made you come up with the 51%, sir? **[06:34:21.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** In-add lang po, tsaka dinivide by 4, lahat po ng understatements niya po. **[06:34:25.210] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Oo, okay. Sige po. Next, I go to the, kanina binanggit ko, yung manpower complement ng... **[06:34:36.460] Sen. Joel Villanueva** KL88. Nung binanggit ko po yung dalawang empleyado na inilabas po dun sa JIS, may mga nag-bash po sa akin na sabi sa akin, eh, Sen. Villanueva, hindi nyo ba alam ang ibig sabihin ng outsourcing, etc.? Eh, sabi ko, alam ko naman po yun. At gusto kong malaman sa inyo, when you examined itong financial statements ng Cale88, na-flag nyo po ba na walang manufacturing arrangements na maaaring nakakapag-substitute sa actual na manufacturing activities? And the company reported 150 million sales for 2024. While the GIS presented here in this court reflected na wala po rank and file employees eh in 23 and 24. In fact, 2025 po pumasok yung dalawang empleyado at zero ang nakalagay sa manpower complement. Kaya dun sa mga nagtatanong po na kung hindi natin alam yung sinasabi natin, wala pong report na zero. **[06:35:55.680] Sen. Joel Villanueva** talaga pong zero ang nakalagay dun sa manpower complement. Sa tatlong taon po yun. So, ibig sabihin po, yung outsourcing o sinasubcontract, wala pong nakalagay. And please correct me if I'm wrong. Wala po talagang nakalagay, hindi po ba? Sa AFS, wala ding nakalagay. Sa GIS, zero po talaga. Wala **[06:36:17.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pong nakadisclose sa financial statements. Although, Honorable Villanueva, **[06:36:26.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Meron pong cost of goods sold po siya. Cost of goods manufactured po. At maaari pong may direct labor po doon. **[06:36:36.360] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Doon po mapasok? Could be? **[06:36:38.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maaari pong nandoon po yung direct labor **[06:36:40.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[06:36:40.470] Sen. Joel Villanueva** But again, there's no record that states may outsourcing. **[06:36:44.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[06:36:45.950] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Merong sinab contract. Wala po. **[06:36:49.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. **[06:36:49.630] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And... **[06:36:52.170] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Your forensic examination independently verified the company's staffing and operational capacity against the relevant records. **[06:37:02.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:37:03.920] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Follow up po. Sa inyong professional experience, ano ba yung mga factors that you would examine when determining whether or not the financial and operational profile of a certain business is consistent with its reported scale? **[06:37:22.470] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Ano **[06:37:23.170] Sen. Joel Villanueva** yung mga factors? **[06:37:24.550] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, lahat po nung aspeto po kung paano po magiging viable po ang isang business. Kung kayo po ay may manufacturing concern, dapat meron po kayong sufficienting property, plant and equipment. Yung pong established po yung sino po yung mga **[06:37:45.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tao po na nagtatrabaho po sa planta, sa manufacturing. Sino po yung mga tao na nagtatrabaho rin po sa administrative. Tapos dapat po mataas po yung electrical cost nyo. Di ba din gumagamit po kayo ng power. Pero po yung mahalaga po sa amin din na nakita po namin, hindi po kasi pwede magsabay po yung sales at purchase. na parang lagi ka pong walang receivable, lagi kang walang payable. Kasi po sa tunay na negosyo, siyempre kailangan mo munang bumili ng mga inventory o materials para i-process bago po maging finished goods. Bago po makapagbenta, tapos po pag nakapagbenta at na-collect niyo po yung pinagbentahan, pwede niyo po mabayaran yung mga nasa supply chain po. So hindi po talaga possible na cash po lahat. **[06:38:39.020] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And considering that this company ay nag-ooperate with international operations. **[06:38:48.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:38:49.570] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Anyway, pwede ko bang matanong ang ating prosecution at defense? Just one question, the Honorable Diokno, if I may. Kanina nabanggit po yung sa customs if you were able to verify. Sa prosecution po ba, na-verify niyo po ba independently yung workforce declared by Cale88 using this original GIS filings, payroll, SSS, field health, pag-ibig, and other official employment records? **[06:39:22.750] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Unfortunately, Your Honor, we were not able to. We hope to do that. Ang problema lang po sa dami rin ng mga inaayos na tinahanla po namin. We were not able to make the official confirmations. **[06:39:36.930] Sen. Joel Villanueva** That's official. Pero not official. May nabalitaan na po kayo or anything? **[06:39:42.130] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Parang meron man **[06:39:43.030] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** pong naririnig. But of course, that's all hearsay. **[06:39:46.750] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Thank you. Sa defense, pwede yung malaman sa original GIS filings ng Cale88, tama po bang? Totoo na ito, wala hong empleyadong deklarado, 23 to 24, dalawa naman para sa 2025, and on top of this, zero ang manpower complement as stated a while ago ng mga taong iyon, is the defense disputing the entries reflected in these general information sheet documents or Accurate po ba ito? What's your position on this matter? **[06:40:24.870] Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer** Your Honor, we will disclose or we will tackle the matter at the right time, Your Honor. **[06:40:30.470] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Okay, thank you. I understand po. **[06:40:33.850] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Siguro yung last na lang po na itatanong ko sa ating witness. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that I get your position. But we will wait on that, Atty. Mr. Cabrera, Atty. Cabrera, dun po sa... 2025 GIS tungkol po dun sa pag-transfer dun sa pikimong-pikimong. Susugan ko yung tinanong kanina ni Senator Kiko. First of all, would you agree with this representation na a GIS reported corporate ownership a GIS records Reported corporate ownership but does not by itself establish that consideration was actually paid. Would you agree with that? **[06:41:30.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, sandali **[06:41:36.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** lang po ah. Isipin po natin. **[06:41:42.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ito po kasi secondary na po ito eh. Yung naka-establish na po yung company. So pagka po original incorporation po. Bawal po yung walang payment because you will be issuing watered stock. Pero kung nagtatransfer po from one shareholder to another, gawa nung issued na po yung stock, pwede po silang magkaroon ng kasunduan na on credit. Kaya pwede pong lumipat kahit po wala pa pong bayad. **[06:42:15.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero kailangan pong, **[06:42:17.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede pong lumipat, wala pa pong bayad, pero kahit wala pa pong bayad, babayaran mo yung tax, kukuha ka ng CAR. **[06:42:27.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At saka dapat merong disclosure po ng mga transaksyon na yun doon po sa kabila pong financial statement. So alimbawa po sa Pikimong-Pikimong, kung siya po talagang bumili ng Calil 88 shares doon po sa magsyosyo po na si... Tony Manzcarpio, tsaka si Dr. Lebosada. Kahit hindi niya po bayaran, marirecord po yung asset. Tapos po, marirecord din po dun yung payable. Doon naman sa books ng Cale88. Marirecord po yung payable. Okay. Pag binili ko po yan, kahit hindi ko po binabayaran, irerecord ko po yung shares, investment. Pero kung hindi pa po bayad, payable ang irerecord ko. Kung bayad, edi cash yung maapektuhan, mababawasan po yung cash ko. Pero tulad nga po ng nasabi ko kanina, wala pong kakayahang magbayad ng cash at wala rin pong aksyon doon po sa financial statement po, wala pong nangyayari. **[06:43:28.900] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Susugan ko yung sinasabi nyo, yung kakayahan na magbayad dahil po doon sa inyong inireport, inistate nyo po doon yung Pikimong Pikimong had only about 59,836. pesos in capital and approximately 84,700 in total assets. Is **[06:43:49.360] Sen. Joel Villanueva** that correct? **[06:43:49.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po yun nung sumunod na taon po. **[06:43:52.260] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And **[06:43:52.320] Sen. Joel Villanueva** with no corresponding acquisition reflected in **[06:43:55.140] Sen. Joel Villanueva** its financial statements. **[06:43:55.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala rin po talagang activity sa financial statements. **[06:43:58.500] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And **[06:43:58.720] Sen. Joel Villanueva** what did your review find about whether an actual transfer for value occurred, Your Honor? GIS lang? **[06:44:10.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Whether an actual transfer for value occurred. I guess, financial statements po, reporting. **[06:44:17.410] Sen. Joel Villanueva** So parang sinasabi niyo po, yung sari-sari store, binili yung isang department store. **[06:44:25.250] Sen. Joel Villanueva** I'm just asking you. **[06:44:28.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung d-list po, kinain yung pateng. Ganun po. Parang. **[06:44:34.570] Sen. Joel Villanueva** But anyway, anyway, I just wanted to put that on record. And if this was a genuine sale, Mr. Witness, Atty. Abrera, where would you ordinarily expect to find the purchase price and the proof of payment? Did you find any of those records, by the way? **[06:44:56.940] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po. Well, you can see that, well, of course, the deed of sale, the check payment. The bank account, you could see that in the bank account kung nag-clear po yung cheque. Yung recording po, yung extemporaneous recording po sa books, **[06:45:18.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** journal **[06:45:19.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** entry po na meron pong nagbintahan. So kailangan po nakarecord po yan lahat. Tapos kikilos po yung stock and transfer book, etc. Hindi po pwedeng isang dokumento lang. **[06:45:31.610] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Meaning **[06:45:32.030] Sen. Joel Villanueva** to say hindi po po pwede na yung GIS standing alone establish that underlying ownership interest was actually or genuinely transferred for value. **[06:45:41.790] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kailangan **[06:45:42.030] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po natin ng menu of all the rest of the transaction documents that will be affected and will reflect the record of the transaction. Yun po yung normal po. **[06:45:55.130] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Maraming **[06:45:55.730] Sen. Joel Villanueva** salamat Mr. Witness. Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you. **[06:46:01.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. Senator Judge Raffy Tulfo for his variable two minutes this time around. And apologies again during the first round. **[06:46:18.280] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Atty. Cabrera, okay ka pa ba? **[06:46:20.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Okay pa po. **[06:46:21.640] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Gusto mong uminom ng tubig. Okay na po. **[06:46:23.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nakakainom po ako ng tubig. Maraming salamat po. **[06:46:25.860] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Thank you. Babalikan na natin yung Cale88 kasi na-interrupt ako dahil [unclear] sa oras kanina. **[06:46:32.490] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Bases sa records, itong Cale88 palaging negative ang net taxable income. Meaning losses. Ibig sabihin, every single year palagi silang nasa red, meaning lugi. **[06:46:40.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Losses po. **[06:46:48.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:46:49.760] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Now, it really defies logic and **[06:46:52.060] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** simple common sense na lugi ka every year and yet may pumapasok malalaking pera. **[06:47:02.490] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** That money is coming from countries na high risk padating sa money laundering. Kasi ang normal business principle is to make money. Kasi what's the use of you being in business if you're not making money? Eto pa, napansin ko, recently meron silang advertisement na nag-hire silang empleyado. So ang tanong ko po sa inyo, ano po sa inyong pag-analisa? na bakit ganon every year sila ay lugi or losses wala silang ay binabayad meaning sa BIR and yet by the hundreds of millions pumapasok ng pera why is that? Bakit they still continue doing business? **[06:47:49.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung pera pong pumapasok po ay hindi po related sa business. Yun lang po yung dun po sa fact pattern po na inyo pong nabanggit. **[06:48:01.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung wala talagang tunay na negosyo, mapasok yung pera. Hindi po from business operations yung **[06:48:07.470] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** pumapasok na pera. So, most likely, saan po nagagaling yung pera? Kasi, syempre, alangan ba naman yung mga, parang ako, kunyari, isa ako sa mga incorporators ng Cale88, and then idideklara sa akin na accountant na day of the year, Boss, nungi tayo, wala tayong dividendo, at nasa pula tayo, at wala nga tayong pambayad ng tax. Well... Atras na ako at sabihin ko, isara na natin itong Lintik. Ay sorry, itong kumpanyang ito dahil lugi na **[06:48:34.880] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** lang taon-taon. Pero ito, tuloy pa rin. In fact, nag-ahire pa. As a matter of fact, sabi nyo nga kanina, wala silang records na nagbabayad sila para sa kanilang raw materials to produce their products na para... ilalabas. **[06:48:55.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala pong raw material inventory po. **[06:48:58.100] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** What does that mean? Ano ibig sabihin nung wala siya inventory? Wala ka ring **[06:49:03.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** finished goods na magagawa kung wala kang raw material inventory at the end of the year. So, kailangan niyo po ito para maging **[06:49:12.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** continuous po ang business. **[06:49:13.590] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Exactly. So, for you to be able to produce banana chips, you have to have raw materials, right? So, may pinanggalingan yan. So, yun ay missing. So kung baga, o, paano ka nagkaroon ng banana chips, saan ang galing yung pang manufacture mo, yung banana chips mo, kung wala kang declare ng raw materials? Bakit hindi po nakadeclare yung raw materials? **[06:49:35.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sa kanila po, wala po. Pero **[06:49:38.110] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** maging tabla lang po tayo, kung wala po sila nung manufacturing talaga, ibig sabihin, pwede po sila nagpapanmanufacture sa iba. **[06:49:50.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Theoretically po. **[06:49:51.265] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** So, meaning, nag-aangkat sila sa iba. So, merong ibang kumpanya ang nagsusupply ng raw materials nila, and then pinoprocess nila yun, and then after that, in-export papunta sa mga iba-ibang bansa. **[06:50:01.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, maring in-order nila, halimbawa po. Pero yun nga po yung ano eh, wala po tayong nakitang record ng ano. **[06:50:07.180] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** And then why would they do that? Ba't sila, ba't sila hindi nila mismo ang mag-angkat ng sarili nilang raw materials, and then ipoprocess that? Pro-process yan hanggang sa iyon ay magiging banana chips. **[06:50:19.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kulang po **[06:50:19.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** kasi sila sa **[06:50:20.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ano eh? **[06:50:21.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kulang po sila sa property plant and equipment. Property plant and equipment. Kulang po sila sa investment. **[06:50:27.600] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay. Di ba 125,000 yung kanilang investment? So tama po ba yan? Ang investment mo is 125,000 paid up capital and yet you're making hundreds of millions every year. Does **[06:50:38.340] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** that make sense? **[06:50:39.960] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yeah. Well, sa kabuuan po ng financial statements. Kasi po, Yung pagkakasabi niyo po, kung halimbawa, tech company ko, hindi mo kailangan masyado ng kapital, may na-invento ko. **[06:50:54.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung pang sobrang kakaiba lang po pwede mo yan. Pero sa ganito pong uri ng business, hindi **[06:51:02.150] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po siya plausible. **[06:51:03.430] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay, sa inyo pong experience bilang accountant for so many years, simptomas ng ano po ito, ng klaseng business? **[06:51:12.240] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Yung bang... **[06:51:13.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Alam ko po yung... Sinasabi niyo, pero hindi po, hindi ko po masabi na ito po talaga yung nangyayari doon. Pero tulad nga po nung nasabi ko sa kanila kanina, ang pagpasok ng pera at paglabas ng pera na hindi naman nagagamit nung negosyo yung pera ay simptomas po ng money laundering. Pero hindi ko po sinasabing... Conclusive po **[06:51:37.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** na may money laundering po nangyayari. **[06:51:39.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[06:51:39.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** baga, eh yun yung simptomas na may problema sa katawan kung tao man may sakit, alam na niya yung simptomas na yan ay magkaroon siya ng trangkaso, etc. Something like that. **[06:51:49.360] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay, mapunta muna tayo sa GEM Corp po, Mr. Witness. Nag-start natin GEM Corp is 2020, am I right? **[06:52:01.030] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Sometime in 2020 or 2021. Around that time. Okay, anyway, sige. Ang paid up capital ng Gem Corp was 1.2 million at that time. Tama? **[06:52:15.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 1 **[06:52:15.810] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** .125 something? **[06:52:17.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 1 million 250 **[06:52:19.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** thousand. **[06:52:20.630] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** At 2050. So 1.2 more or less. Okay. Now, with that paid up capital, sila'y nakapagbumili ng franchise ng Jollibee na yung Jollibee is Franchise is 35 to 55 million. Ilagay lang natin sa 35 million. Kanina pa natin pinag-usapan yung 35 million na amount. Baskin na ibang senador na tanong sa iyo. **[06:52:47.170] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Na-trace niyo ba saan galing yung difference? Kasi kung 35 million na lang and then ibabawas natin yung 1.2, so meron 33.8 na ipinasok nila para mabili yung first franchise ng Jollibee. **[06:53:03.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ito po yung attribution po at sinasabi namin na mari po hindi po na-record po doon yung equity. Hindi po na sinasabi na walang branch kasi sinabi nga natin may mga resibo. Pero sa financial statement po, hindi po doon na **[06:53:17.650] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** -record yung equity. So yung 1.250 million, hindi po siya reflective nung actual net worth po nung company. Hindi reflective. **[06:53:28.840] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Bakit **[06:53:29.440] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** nangyari yun? Diba dapat they have to declare it properly when they filed yung records nila sa SEC? **[06:53:35.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Financial statements supporting the ITR should reflect the proper value. Pero hindi po pwedeng meron kang ganung asset, limang branches, na ang capital mo ay 1.250. Wala rin po namang **[06:53:52.130] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** payable. Okay. Kaya nga po, so... Abante tayo ng konti. Bumili ng Jollibee sa capital 1.2 million first year and then ang income nila sa first year ay **[06:54:12.580] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** 182,000 net income, taxable net income. So again, mind-boggling para sa ordinary mamayan, mga hindi negosyante. Ako, hindi ako masyado sanay sa negosyo. **[06:54:27.440] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** 182,000 ang net income ng iyong first franchise. And yet, **[06:54:35.920] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** on **[06:54:36.880] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** that same year after, nakabili ka ng another franchise and another franchise hanggang sa dumating sa 6 na franchise. In fact, kung titingnan sa records, i-average na natin from 2022, 2021 to 2025 thereafter, ang average net income ng bawat Jollibee nila ay only 3 million and yet lumili ito na every year nakakabili sila ng panibagong franchise. Parang it adds up to that. So paano po nangyari yun sa inyong pag-istima? **[06:55:11.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Unrecorded transactions, may unrecorded cash flow po talaga and nakikita naman po natin doon sa aming report na malaki po yung cash flow na hindi po mapasok. So mari pong galing dito sa Unreported cash flow po yung ginagamit nilang pera para makabili po ng additional franchises **[06:55:32.710] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** po. Ito po, very basic na tanong. Bakit po hindi lang nireport? Anong reason behind why are they not accurately reporting yung mga cash flows nila? **[06:55:44.460] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** For what purpose? **[06:55:45.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pagka hindi po kayo nagre-report eh, hindi nyo po nire-report yun para pinaka-basic po doon para bumaba po yung babayaran yung tax. **[06:55:55.680] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** So, Tax evasion. Okay. **[06:56:00.740] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Sige. Now, isa na lamang po. Dito sa page 25, Metro City Chow. Sabi nyo dito, undeclared inflows of Metro City Chow. The money deposited into Metro City Chow's bank accounts was consistently higher than the collections generated from its restaurants operations based on its audited financial statements. So, ibig sabihin, yung mga deposito. sa bangko mula dito sa mga restaurant ng Metro City Chow, hindi bumabangga sa sales, sa collection? **[06:56:34.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:56:35.180] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Is that what you mean? **[06:56:36.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[06:56:37.510] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Bakit po nagkaganon? Ano naman pong simptomas ito? **[06:56:41.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pareho po ng Gen Corp, pareho po ng Calilung 88 **[06:56:44.990] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. Underreporting po yan ng revenue. So, hindi po nagbabalansan. **[06:56:49.870] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Last na lamang. So, maraming deposit. Consistent yan. Every year. Ang taas ng deposit and yet yung collection, yung sales nasa mababa. So ang nakapagtakas saan galing yung pera na pinandeposit na wala naman pala sa, hindi tumutugma sa income. **[06:57:11.730] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po yan pero kulang po yung aming information para masabing. sales po siya or gano kalaki po yung kanya pong operations at kung meron pa pong pinanggagalingan pong iba. Alam ko po yung tinutukoy nyo pero kami po isipin lang po namin na kumbaga unreported revenue. Kung meron pong pinanggagalingan na iba other than operations hindi po **[06:57:38.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** namin alam kung saan po **[06:57:39.100] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung nagagaling. **[06:57:40.040] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** So base po sa inyong karanasan Madalas bang mangyari ito sa ibang negosyo o bibihira o first time niyo makaranig ng ganitong sitwasyon sa negosyo? In your experience. **[06:57:52.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not at this **[06:57:54.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** amounts po eh. **[06:57:55.870] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nangyayari pero not at this huge amount. **[06:57:58.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Not at this amounts po. Tsaka nangyayari naman po sa tunay na buhay po yung dalawang books of accounts tapos hindi po nakadeclare lahat. Kasi po marami po ang mga malilit na negosyo na kailangan din nilang mag-survive po siguro yun ang kanilang dahilan. Gusto nilang gamitin yung pera nila para sa negosyo, para bumalik po sa negosyo. Pero yun po nakikita natin bumabalik po sa negosyo yung pera. Ito po eh papasok yung pera at lalabas. **[06:58:32.100] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Kasi ito po ay narinig ko common practice sa ibang mga negosyante. Dito sa Pilipinas, na dalawang libro nila. Isang libro na totoo, isang libro para sa BIR. **[06:58:42.570] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Of **[06:58:43.270] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** course, yun ay para makatipid sa tax at para gumanda-ganda yung takbo ng negosyo nila. Tuloy-tuloy lang hanggang sa sila ay mahuli ng BIR at sila ay mapapadala ng LOA. Mari hindi mo ito alam pero ito nainik na balibalita. Now, in this case, dito sa Metro City Chow, Bakit hindi nahabol ng BIR to? Ba't hindi nakikita ng BIR? **[06:59:09.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po alam. Wala pong **[06:59:11.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** idea bakit po hindi nakikita. **[06:59:15.120] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Ano? **[06:59:17.770] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Kasi di po ba? So ang BIR ba hindi na tinitingnan yung deposits and then yung sales para pagbanggain nila, para malaman nila kung ito ba yung nagbabayad ng **[06:59:27.390] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** tamang buwis? Hindi ko alam paano mag-operate yung BIR. Hindi ganun ang mag-operate yung BIR kasi... Para sa akin dapat, para malaman talaga yung tamang buwis, tamang kinikita o tamang binabayad, yung deposits mo kung ikaw business at yung inyong sales, pagbabanggain. Pero kung ang laki pala ng deposit mo, tapos maliit lang yung sales mo, there's something wrong. And then tawagan natin AMLC or something like that. **[06:59:53.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So pag may indication na po ng fraud, gagawin po yun ng BIR? Sa ngayon, hindi. **[07:00:00.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Baka po, hindi ko po alam ang status po. Wala pong information po. **[07:00:04.630] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Okay, sige yan lang. Maraming salamat po sa patience ninyo, Mr. Witness. And Mr. Presiding Officer, maraming salamat po. **[07:00:11.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you for your patience. One more, Senator Judge. Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized. **[07:00:18.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thereafter, Senator Judge Sotto. **[07:00:20.660] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yes, good afternoon again. **[07:00:24.150] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Base doon sa report po ninyo, ginoong Cabrera, ilan po ang... Personal accounts na binusisi ninyo? Would you know? **[07:00:37.010] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Between **[07:00:39.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 31 to 37 to, pasensya na po. Yes. **[07:00:43.710] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 9, dito sa table 1 nyo, 9. Sa table 2 nyo, 14. Tama? Accounts. That totals 23. Sa table 3 nyo, 5. **[07:00:56.910] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** And then sa table 4 nyo, 2. **[07:00:59.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 31. **[07:01:00.520] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 31. **[07:01:01.760] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tapos these are all personal or together or spouses or **[07:01:06.460] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** both? **[07:01:06.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Combination po ako. **[07:01:07.920] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. So 31. At 37. **[07:01:13.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 37. **[07:01:14.500] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 37 accounts. Ilan yung investments sa insurance? **[07:01:19.410] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Nabilang namin 19? **[07:01:21.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:01:21.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 19 po. **[07:01:22.870] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So 37 accounts, bank accounts. **[07:01:29.040] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** 19 investments, and then, yung isa pala, single proprietorship, so personal pa rin yun, ano? **[07:01:37.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:01:37.890] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Were you able to see checks at the photocopies of the checks? **[07:01:42.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Whenever meron po, nakita po namin, pero hindi po kasi kompleto, meron po mga banko po na hindi po nagbibigay ng check. **[07:01:50.110] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, I understand, these are their accounts, sila rin ang signatory? **[07:01:57.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Oo **[07:01:57.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[07:01:57.980] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, it was, sino ang mga signatory dun sa mga checks si Atty. Carpio? **[07:02:03.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[07:02:04.640] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. **[07:02:06.080] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, just to clarify, would that **[07:02:12.870] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** be usual in your experience? **[07:02:16.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** To have those many accounts po? **[07:02:19.640] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yes. **[07:02:20.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[07:02:20.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa mayaman pong tao siguro, hindi ko po, hindi pa po ako nakaranas ng ganun, hindi po ako mayaman. **[07:02:26.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[07:02:27.340] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po ako nakaranas. **[07:02:27.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** No, **[07:02:28.060] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** but you have, You have audited? **[07:02:31.160] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** yung mga... **[07:02:32.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ah, **[07:02:32.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po ganun karaming accounts. **[07:02:34.740] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Di ba? **[07:02:35.620] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Kahit mayaman. **[07:02:36.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kahit mayaman po, ito po yan. Hindi po ganun karaming accounts. **[07:02:39.100] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Oo. Tsaka hindi pa kasama dito yung korporasyon. Tama po. Di ba? So, 37 personal accounts, 19 insurance policies and investments, at ilang bank accounts ang corporate accounts pa? 15 ba ang na-check nyo? **[07:02:58.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede po ako magtanong. **[07:03:04.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero parang hindi po kasing dami sa individual po. **[07:03:09.100] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** And sino naman ang signatories dun sa mga korporasyon? Yung checks. **[07:03:16.050] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Were **[07:03:16.570] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** you able to check that? **[07:03:17.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Parang hindi po. Kasi yung signatory po kung sino po yung ma-assign ng company na mag -sign. **[07:03:22.710] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Although these are corporate accounts of which they are shareholders or directors. And moving on to that. Nabanggit niyo kasi na they were engaged in business. Medyo issue yan eh. Kasi if you're a shareholder, are you engaged in business? Or if you're a director, are you participating in the business? **[07:03:50.950] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yeah, tama po. So yung... Yung sa Constitution po kasi business interests. **[07:03:56.680] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[07:03:57.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi po yung engagement business. So yung business interest po, stockholder pa lang po, meron ka na pong business interest. **[07:04:05.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kahit **[07:04:06.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi ka po member ng board because a stockholder has the right to attend meetings, even the right to force meetings, they have the right to dividends, they... Have the right to the assets when the assets are liquidated. Tapos meron po sila mga voting rights in the case po ng mga tulad po ng kung meron pong mergers and acquisitions, may voting rights po sila. So participating po in business po yun. **[07:04:36.110] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Or so kung director? **[07:04:37.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Lalo na po kung director kasi ang corporate acts po ay ginagawa po through the board. **[07:04:42.590] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. **[07:04:46.220] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Dito naman po sa... **[07:04:49.930] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tatlong kompanya ang inyong tinutukan. **[07:04:57.150] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** MetroCity **[07:04:58.230] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Chow, **[07:04:58.710] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** GenCorp, Cali88. **[07:05:01.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** At **[07:05:01.870] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** dito sa tatlong kompanya na ito, sinabi ninyo meron ding tax deficiencies. **[07:05:09.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:05:10.850] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Yung binanggit ba ninyong 250 million tax deficiency is for personal or... **[07:05:18.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi po, pinierce po namin yung veil. Kaya yung ginamit po namin tax rate po doon, individual tax rate po. **[07:05:26.300] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So that's for, just for GENCOR? **[07:05:29.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** GENCOR po, after piercing the bill. Pero wala po yun doon sa 817, wala pong factor yun. **[07:05:37.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** In **[07:05:38.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** -add lang po namin yun just to give some numbers doon sa tax violation po. **[07:05:45.540] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** But you also mentioned undeclared or? Tax deficiencies in other companies. Possible, di ba? **[07:05:51.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That's right po. **[07:05:52.680] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[07:05:53.020] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** yung 250 million tax deficiency ay para sa GenCorp lang? **[07:05:57.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, meron po kaming summary po dun sa report namin. **[07:05:59.820] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[07:06:00.120] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** magkano ang total tax deficiency? **[07:06:04.090] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Sa mga na... Sandali lang po. Sandali, oo. **[07:06:11.460] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tinotal mo ba? **[07:06:14.030] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** And **[07:06:17.920] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** for the period 20... What period? **[07:06:22.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ano po ito eh, naka 4 years na po. **[07:06:25.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang **[07:06:25.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** total po nito basic lang po, 158,036,000 pesos. Pero basic lang po ito. Kung tunay na assessment po, syempre po meron po mga penalties. At kung fraud assessment po, may 50%. **[07:06:44.390] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** No, **[07:06:44.510] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** this is separate from the 250. **[07:06:50.390] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Sabi niyo 250 sa GenCorp pa lang. **[07:06:53.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ah, nagtiteoretical po kasi tayo doon kanina eh. **[07:06:56.390] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ah, okay. **[07:06:57.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sandali lang po. **[07:06:59.460] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** And **[07:07:09.230] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** this 150 is for corporations? **[07:07:13.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Total na po ng individual tsaka corporation. **[07:07:15.730] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** okay **[07:07:16.810] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So yung 250 na hindi binayad, theoretical yun, hindi yun yung actual na amount? **[07:07:24.590] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[07:07:26.980] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** how do you **[07:07:27.960] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** reconcile? **[07:07:28.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** I-reconcile ko po mamaya pa after po nito. **[07:07:31.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Medyo **[07:07:34.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero kung ano man po yung nasa report ko, conservative po itong amounts na to. **[07:07:38.770] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. So, sige. Now, my last few questions. Sinabi ninyo the auditor of Metro Chau issued a qualified opinion. **[07:07:50.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:07:52.100] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ano ibig sabihin sa layman's terms? Qualified opinion. And you also said hindi dapat, well, in your professional judgment, it should not have been qualified. It should have been? **[07:08:04.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung level po ng understatement should have been adverse po. **[07:08:07.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** adverse opinion **[07:08:09.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung Metro City Chow po kasi dalawa po yung area po nung qualification niya sa cash po at saka sa inventory. Pagka doon po yung qualification niyo, pervasive na po yun eh. Kumbaga laganap na po yung impact niya sa buong financial statements. Kasi yung cash po, alam po natin ang cash. Pero yung inventory po, meron po yung kasamang mga payables din. Nag-iimpact po yan sa cost of sales, nag-iimpact po yan sa revenue. Kaya pagka yung inventory po ang hindi nyo natignan, talaga po magiging pervasive yun. Hindi naman po kailangang obserbaan yung inventory count. Meron po naman yung mga inventory count sheets. **[07:08:55.830] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede nyo **[07:08:56.310] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** rin pong tignan yung... **[07:08:57.410] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** subsidiary ledger for purchases, you analyze yung cost of sales, pwede pong makita yun eh. Pero wala po silang ginawa doon, nag-qualify po sila ng opinion. **[07:09:10.520] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** As they were not able to verify the cash account and observe physical counting of inventories due to certain limitations imposed by the management. Pero you can only speculate ano yung limitations imposed by management. **[07:09:27.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yun po yung simple way po of saying na kung may nakita man sila, kanila na lang po yun. **[07:09:35.520] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Ano ibig sabihin nun? **[07:09:36.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasi po bago po mag-limit ang management, magre-raise ka eh. **[07:09:40.700] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. **[07:09:41.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Mag-audit kayo ha. From the start, bawal kayo tumingin ng cash ha. Bawal kayo tumingin ng inventory. Bakit nyo po tatanggapin yung ganong trabaho? **[07:09:50.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po ba sobrang unusual po noon na, sige, lahat ng related sa inventory, lahat ng related sa cash, hindi ko titignan. Dapat po, mag-disclaimer of opinion kung walang audit at kung talaga pong pervasive, dapat po **[07:10:06.020] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So are you **[07:10:09.740] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** speculating or are you based on your... **[07:10:13.560] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** No, **[07:10:13.700] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** based **[07:10:13.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** on my experience Wala pong **[07:10:16.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** auditor natatanggap ng ganun eh. I-audit mo kung hindi mo pwedeng tingnan ng cash at inventory ah. **[07:10:22.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ay **[07:10:23.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** tiyak na pahamak po yun. **[07:10:25.200] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Because dapat talaga yung cash at inventory nakalagay doon sa financial statement. **[07:10:30.160] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Nandun po yun. Kasi po pagka nag-audit po kayo at nag-i-issue ng financial statement, hindi nyo po ito ginagawa para po doon sa kumpanya. Ginagawa nyo po ito para sa public. **[07:10:39.440] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Para **[07:10:39.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** masabi po sa public. **[07:10:41.180] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Kaya na kayo **[07:10:41.200] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** public accountant. **[07:10:42.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[07:10:42.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[07:10:42.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Dahil ang korporasyon, Siyempre, kailangan merong check at regulation ng gobyerno para hindi inaabuso ng mga korporasyon ang kanilang pagiging korporasyon. **[07:10:58.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:10:59.280] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. Now, what should have been the opinion if it were, kung maganda ang trabaho, maayos yung records, maayos yung inventory. **[07:11:08.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Clean **[07:11:08.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** opinion po. Clean opinion. **[07:11:10.260] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Clean opinion. **[07:11:11.040] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So in this case, hindi sa clean opinion. **[07:11:13.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po. **[07:11:14.620] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** At ito yung mga accountants nila. Hindi kayo ito. Hindi kayo ang naglabas nung qualified opinion. Tama? **[07:11:23.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po kami. **[07:11:25.380] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** External auditor nila. **[07:11:28.740] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** External auditor po nila yan. At pare-pareho po yung kanilang external auditor. **[07:11:34.540] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Elises and Ciudadano, CPAs. **[07:11:39.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Doon po sa Metro, Gen Corp, Calle. Isa lang po yung partner, si Mr. Juan C. Frivaldo. Pero po doon sa individual accounts po, individual return po, na may financial statements po ni Bipisara at nangasawa niya po, si Mr. Ralph Renzo Naquila po yung auditor. Pero puro po sila taga Elises and Ciudadano. **[07:12:04.950] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Kayo ba sa experience niyong matagal na? Marami na rin kayong inilabas na adverse opinions sa inyong pag-audit? **[07:12:19.120] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kunti lang po. Kasi po yung magsisimula po kasi yung trabaho sa survey. **[07:12:25.160] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[07:12:25.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sa survey pa lang po titignan nyo kung auditable. **[07:12:28.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[07:12:29.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** auditable. Kaya I don't know kung... **[07:12:32.060] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[07:12:32.680] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** in other words, **[07:12:33.160] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** parang siyang sinasala. O **[07:12:34.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** sinasala. Pag lumalabas **[07:12:35.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** na hindi auditable, hindi nyo na itutuloy. **[07:12:37.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Well, pag hindi siya auditable... Siyempre ayaw din po ng cliente yun na ipagawa sa amin kasi hindi naman po kami rubber stamp. **[07:12:47.090] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So **[07:12:47.570] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** pagka hindi po siya auditable, magbabago po yung tulong namin. **[07:12:50.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang **[07:12:51.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** i-offer po namin, pwede ba kitang tulungan na i-improve ang books mo, **[07:12:55.590] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** mag **[07:12:56.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** -improve ang governance mo, mag-record ka ng maayos, mag-accounting ka ng maayos. So habang, pag natulungan po namin silang ganun, magiging auditable na po sila. Pero hindi po kami yung mag-audit. Kasi magkakaroon po kami ng independence issue na kami po lahat yung tumulong. **[07:13:12.590] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tapos kayo rin **[07:13:13.250] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** na nag-audit. **[07:13:13.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Because that will be self-audit. Pero at least auditable na po sila. So lahat po yan, mangyayari po yan sa simula po, yung evaluation po. During the audit survey, pakikipag-usap po sa officers. **[07:13:28.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Titignan din po namin yung working papers po ng naon ng auditor. Ganun po yung mga prosesong gagawin. **[07:13:35.550] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So you have **[07:13:38.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Rarely, but you have issued adverse opinions. You have also issued qualified opinions. **[07:13:45.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Mas **[07:13:46.210] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** yung qualified opinion po ang, kasi yung qualified opinion po, maaari po siyang, based sa limbawa po sa accounting treatment. So yung accounting treatment, magkaiba po kami ng tingin. At gusto po ng clienteeng gawin yung kanila, yung sa amin naman iba yung tingin namin. Minsan po nagko-qualify po ng opinion on the effects po. Nung accounting po nila for a certain account. So **[07:14:11.220] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** dahil yung kanilang auditor ay nagbigay ng qualified opinion, so ano ang, to wrap this up, in layman's terms, ano ibig sabihin ng qualified opinion? Sa man on the street. **[07:14:25.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ang qualified opinion po, ang sinasabi po niya, yung financial statements ayos sana eh. Kaso may konting problema sa gantong mga bagay. Yung sinasabi ko lamang po ay hindi po reliable yung financial statement. **[07:14:41.800] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung **[07:14:42.480] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** ang qualification mo cash at inventory at ang dahilan ng qualification mo ay hindi mo kasi tinignan o merong limitation, eh bakit ka nag clean opinion? **[07:14:52.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi **[07:14:53.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** mo lang alam kung gaano kalaki yung... **[07:14:57.630] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Problema sa cash. Tulad po ng GenCorp po na sa computation namin merong 87% na under declaration. **[07:15:05.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** O **[07:15:05.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** hindi, baliwala na po yung qualified. Talagang adverse opinion dapat ang inabot po nun. **[07:15:10.610] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** At ang adverse opinion sa Tagalog? **[07:15:13.930] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi mapagkakatiwalaan yung financial statement po. **[07:15:17.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. **[07:15:17.970] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Salamat. Maraming salamat. **[07:15:20.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator **[07:15:20.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Judge Sotto is recognized. **[07:15:27.200] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Atty. Cabrera, my question would either elicit felicitations for you or not. But it's not directed to you. The question is to the presiding officer. **[07:15:40.170] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Mr. presiding officer, did Atty. Cabrera beat the record of Executive Director Benaventura? **[07:15:50.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tinanong ko kayo kanina, Tito Sen, kung mahirap yung tanong sa sagot niyo. Buti na lang tinanong ko a few minutes ago. **[07:15:57.090] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** I **[07:15:57.610] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** will respond. **[07:16:00.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Depsek, Deputy Clerk of Court, Mavic just gave it to me. Labindalawang oras po umupo dyan si Atty. Ronel, si Atty. Cabrera, kumatapos tayo ng alasais, samput kalahating oras pa lang. So silver medalist lang ito kung saka **[07:16:17.840] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** -saka. **[07:16:18.260] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Okay, so you do not get my felicitations, but you receive my gratitude. Thank you very much for staying there, the witness. And that's all. Thank you, kind sir. **[07:16:32.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Lacson is recognized. **[07:16:35.350] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Two very quick points, Mr. President Officer, just so we can rectify and spread it to the records, about the SALN. With all due respect to the Presiding Officer, tama po si Artur Di Cabrera na pag-real estate, acquisition, pati improvements kasama. So, para lang maliwanag yung, this is a spare Section 8A of RA 6713. **[07:17:05.580] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Pagka po personal properties, hindi kasama improvement. Alimbawa yung sports car ni Sen. Lapid, nilagyan ng mag-wheel. Hindi na po kailangan i-declare. So yun lang po. Pangalawa po, hindi ko alam kung fact-check ang tawag dito kasi chat GP ito yung aking reference. **[07:17:26.890] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Yung isang franchise, isang store ng Jollibee, in 2022, 35 to 55. Tama po yun. Pero 2025, 40 million to 70, 45 million to 70 million. So tama po kayo. Very conservative yung inyong ginamit ng mga figures. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[07:17:46.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And **[07:17:47.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** to continue with the SALN, while some forms include fair market value of the real property, it is not part of the computation of the net worth. Only acquisition cost is factored in with respect to computing the net worth as per civil service regulations. Just brief interjections from this representation before we call it a day. **[07:18:12.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honorable Diokno, just to put everything in perspective, given that Atty. Cabrera is your last witness. Your Article 2 allegation in the complaint is Respondent VP Sarah Duterte committed culpable violation of the Constitution and betrayed public trust when she, quote, amassed unexplained wealth manifestly disproportionate to her lawful income and earnings during her incumbency as a public official. I presume this is for the period 2022 to 2025, correct? **[07:18:42.630] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:18:43.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And that is why you presented bank officials, insurance officials, and the AMLC, I guess. **[07:18:49.910] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:18:50.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** B. Failed to fully and truthfully disclose all her and her spouse's assets, liabilities, net worth in her statement of assets and liabilities and net worth, including her SALN for 2022, 23, and 24. That is why, again, those witnesses were presented, including now, Attorney Cabrera. **[07:19:11.350] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:19:12.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** failed to divest and instead willfully continued all her business interests during her tenure as VP for the years 22 to 2025. That's why the SEC was presented, I guess. **[07:19:25.980] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** As well as the SALNs, if your honor, please. **[07:19:28.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** As well as the SALNs with the Office of the Ombudsman, yes, correct. Thank you, Honorable Diokno. No, still on you. **[07:19:38.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, you alleged unexplained wealth, correct? **[07:19:44.360] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:19:45.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Which is different from ill-gotten wealth. **[07:19:48.120] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:19:49.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ika nga sa Tagalog, unexplained wealth, hindi may paliwanag na yaman, ill-gotten wealth, nakaw na yaman. **[07:19:55.770] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:19:56.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hidden wealth also you did not allege. Sa Tagalog, tagong yaman. **[07:20:01.370] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:20:02.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Now, what Atty. Cabrera, Atty. Alex stated is unexplained wealth, which is not exactly defined by law. **[07:20:12.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Or are you aware of any law that defines unexplained wealth? **[07:20:16.190] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** I believe it appears in Section 8 of Republic Act 1319. In **[07:20:20.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** connection with the declaration that you have to make? **[07:20:22.790] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, **[07:20:23.430] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** in connection with Republic Act 1379, Section 2, Your Honor. **[07:20:27.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, in relation to the declarations you have to make? **[07:20:31.550] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes. **[07:20:32.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Correct? **[07:20:32.890] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:20:33.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, thank you very much, Honorable Diokno. **[07:20:36.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Alex, **[07:20:38.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You know the definition of unexplained wealth when you used it in your tables? **[07:20:43.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[07:20:45.510] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Unexplained wealth po is the property, the value of the property acquired which is manifestly disproportionate po to the income. Yun po yung ginamit ko po. **[07:20:55.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Now, you pierced the corporate veil. Para sa simpleng salita, isinangtabi nyo yung pagkakaroon ng hiwalay na personalidad ng isang korporasyon sangayon sa batas at tinignan nyo. Yung aktual na mga may-ari sa likod ng korporasyon na iyon, yung mga stockholders mismo, tama po ba? **[07:21:13.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:21:14.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Under existing law, as a lawyer too and as an accountant, you can only do that for three reasons. Number one, kapag ka ginamit po yung korporasyon para makaiwas sa mga bayarin o mga kontraktual na obligasyon, ito po ba yun o **[07:21:28.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** hindi? **[07:21:29.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po. **[07:21:30.580] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kasama kung yung kontraktual po, hindi po namin alam kung sino po yung pinagkakaupang. **[07:21:35.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi nga po yun yung base yan. So hindi po. Ang pangalawa, fraud, illegality or perpetration of a wrong. The corporation is used to justify a wrong, protect fraud, commit or conceal a crime, circumvent a statute or work injustice against another. **[07:21:50.860] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede na po magamit po yung pangalawa pong yan dahil po sa tax fraud po. **[07:21:55.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pangatlo, alter ego or instrumentality. The corporation is a mere farce, business conduit, adjunct or instrumentality. with no genuinely separate mind, will, or existence in the transactions involved. **[07:22:09.230] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yan po, possibility po yung pangatlo pero yung pangalawa po yung ginamit po namin. **[07:22:13.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pero ang nasa ilalim po nung pangalawa ay fraud. **[07:22:16.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Fraud po. **[07:22:17.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So ang rason nyo kung bakit nyo isinantabi yung separate corporate personality ay fraud? **[07:22:24.610] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:22:27.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Nakita ko po yung ginawa ninyo sa GenCorp, unahin po natin yan. Binanggit na rin ito kanina nila Sen. Pia at Sen. Camille. Kung tama ang sinabi sa valuation base sa open source ni Senator Judge Lacson ng halaga ng Jollibee conservatively at 35 million, nilagay niyo po sa page 10 ang inyong findings. You can check your findings, sir. Yung 35 million. **[07:22:49.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:22:50.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Nilagay niyo po, kada taon nag-contribute yung shareholder na si VP Sara ng 35 million. Tama po ba? Ay hindi **[07:22:58.080] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[07:22:58.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ano **[07:22:58.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** po? **[07:22:59.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung 35 million po doon, yung po yung... continuously undeclared na attributed capital po namin. **[07:23:08.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attributed na capital contribution nino? Ni **[07:23:12.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** BP Sara po. Yung 35 po, nauulit lang po yun dahil it continues to be undeclared po. **[07:23:18.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So hindi to, so minsan lang to dahil kung limang Jollibee branches times 5 is 175. **[07:23:24.380] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:23:24.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi po ba? **[07:23:25.240] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:23:25.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So dahil 20% divided by 5, 35. **[07:23:28.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:23:28.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So hindi po ito na double booking, binanggit lang na... Kada taon, ito yung halagang hindi na dedeklara. **[07:23:35.220] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pero **[07:23:35.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** hindi ito kinarga ng limang beses doon sa 817. **[07:23:39.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tama po? **[07:23:40.000] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:23:41.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ngayon, pagdating naman po sa Metro Chow, sinabi niyo po, advance from shareholders. Pareho din po ng GenCorp, dahil wala naman pong capital contribution na diretso yung mga shareholders sa authorized capital stock, in-assume po natin, base sa AFS, na nag-advance yung mga shareholders. Tama po? **[07:24:01.360] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Yung sa AFS po yung may advances lang po is Cale88 po. **[07:24:04.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ah, Cale88 lang. Eto pong GenCorp, in-assume lang po ninyo ito. **[07:24:08.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ay, nasa GIS po yan. **[07:24:11.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yung shares po, hindi yung advances of shareholders. **[07:24:13.680] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ay, wala po kaming advances ng GenCorp. **[07:24:17.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** There is no record of advances of shareholders for GenCorp. Wala **[07:24:20.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. GenCorp and Metro City Chow po wala po. **[07:24:23.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Wala po. So Cale lang ang may advances of shareholders. **[07:24:26.820] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:24:27.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So pag sinabi mo pong advances ng shareholders, pautang po ito? shareholder sa kumpanya. **[07:24:32.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pautang po ng shareholder sa kumpanya po. So, **[07:24:36.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** binook niyo po ito as asset receivable. **[07:24:41.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tama po, receivable. **[07:24:43.270] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pautang eh. Sa kumpanya po. **[07:24:46.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa kumpanya? Sige, sila po **[07:24:48.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** dapat, sila po dapat yun. **[07:24:49.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Payable po yan ng kumpanya po. **[07:24:51.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Utang nga po ng kumpanya kay vice president. **[07:24:54.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Ah, sa... kay Atty. Manz Carpio. Ah, **[07:24:58.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** sorry, sorry, kay Atty. Manz, yung Cali. So, **[07:25:00.290] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** payable po yan ng Cali88. **[07:25:03.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Utang po ng Cali88 yan kay Atty. Manz. **[07:25:05.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:25:06.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi pa po nababayaran. So, receivable po siya. **[07:25:11.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Receivable po siya ni Atty. Manz po. Payable po siya ng company po. **[07:25:15.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Payable ng company, receivable ni Atty. Manz. Matuturin niyo po bang asset yan? **[07:25:19.850] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Na **[07:25:20.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** kailangan ideklara sa SALN? **[07:25:22.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dapat rin po. **[07:25:23.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Bakit po? Hindi pa naman bayad yung utang. **[07:25:25.640] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po. Dapat po siyang i-deklara po sa SALN po. **[07:25:31.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Bakit nga po? **[07:25:32.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Dahil po receivable po siya. **[07:25:34.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So lahat ng receivables from the accounting point of view, maski hindi pa aktual na nababayaran, kailangan mo i-deklara bilang parte ng asset mo. **[07:25:44.910] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:25:46.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kasi baliktad po, kapag nag-advance naman ako sa future dividends, utang ko naman yun. Bale yun eh. Parang bumalay ako sa kumpanya. Bumalay ako sa boss ko. Yun naman po ay utang ng shareholder sa kumpanya. Di **[07:26:04.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** ba? **[07:26:04.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo, advances to employees po. **[07:26:07.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kahit **[07:26:07.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** shareholder. **[07:26:08.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Or stockholders. **[07:26:10.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You **[07:26:10.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** mentioned the amounts of money that came in and out of the corporations. **[07:26:15.890] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** And **[07:26:16.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** sabi mo, pumasok yan dyan, alang nga namang hindi nila pinaghati yan. Di ba yun po **[07:26:20.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** yung sabi niyo? **[07:26:21.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pag hindi po pumasok, Pag hindi po pumasok. **[07:26:25.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pag hindi na deklara sa kumpanya pero nakita sa bank account na may pumasok na pera, malamang pinaghatihan yan. **[07:26:32.530] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Sinisimple ko lang po yung piercing the veil. **[07:26:34.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Opo, pero... **[07:26:35.330] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo yun po. **[07:26:35.770] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po kayo. **[07:26:37.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pinapasimple ko pa nga po lalo. So, nakita nyo sa AMLC, nakita nyo sa bank records, may pumasok na pera, hindi na deklara sa EFS ng korporasyon, sa malamang pinaghatihan nila yan. **[07:26:47.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:26:48.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pero dahil walang dineklarang dividend, advance po ito against future dividend. **[07:26:56.200] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maaaring po niyong i-record ng ganun po, pero ang recording po kasi sa accounting, yung reflective po of the transaction. **[07:27:06.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Opo, pero kung walang dineklarang dividend, e di advance po siya against future dividend. **[07:27:13.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi **[07:27:14.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** po ba? **[07:27:15.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Mahari pong advance against future dividend? Mahari po yan. **[07:27:19.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You've **[07:27:20.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** been in the **[07:27:20.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** business for several decades, sir, Atty. Alex. I'm sure you know that that is a practice by most of the big corporations. They simply make an advance against future dividends because the tax will only be imposed once the dividend is declared. **[07:27:35.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Honorable Presiding Officer, kaya po... Kaya po, kung naninimbang sa aking sagot, totoo po na advance against future dividend po, pag nakarecord po sa financial statements at binibigay po sa stockholder po ng on record, ang kakaiba po dito ay hindi po ganun. **[07:27:51.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pero dahil nga in-assume ninyo na, di ba, malamang pinaghati-hati yan, ang tamang pag-record nun ay advance on future dividend, kung nirecord **[07:28:01.020] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** nila. Sige po, kung nirecord po nila, opo. **[07:28:03.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** At kung ganun po, ano po yan, utang? **[07:28:07.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Utang po nila sa kumpanya. **[07:28:10.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Utang po nila sa kumpanya. **[07:28:12.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:28:12.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So dapat po kung mag-a-appear man yun sa SALN, payable **[07:28:16.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[07:28:17.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Nasa liabilities. **[07:28:22.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo. **[07:28:22.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kung dineklara nila. **[07:28:24.370] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:28:25.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa kasong ito, hindi rin po **[07:28:27.070] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** dineklara. Hindi po **[07:28:27.490] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** nakadeklara kasi po ginagamit po yung korporasyon para po makapagtago. Kaya po hindi po yung liability sa company. Kasi isusubi na po yun. Yun po yung tingin po doon. **[07:28:39.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa pananaw na po ninyo yun. Wala na po sa dokumento yun. **[07:28:43.920] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:28:44.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yung parting isusubi. **[07:28:47.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala **[07:28:47.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** po sa dokumento yun. **[07:28:48.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Wala po sa dokumento. Subalit po, Honorable Presiding Officer, hindi po nating masabing utang nila sa kumpanya. Pag-pinierce na po yung will, sila na po yung kumpanya eh. Utang nila sa sarili nila. **[07:29:02.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Opo. Pero hindi rin nga dineklara sa SALN yun. **[07:29:06.130] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. Wala pong declaration ng income, wala pong declaration ng... **[07:29:10.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** May natanong po sa inyo kanina to. Ako po ay nag-compute at gumamit ng calculator. Kung duda ako sa GenCorp, ang kabuang GenCorp sa parte ng 817,874,867 ay humigit kumulang 26% o 25.9% o katumbas ng 212,629,718. Kung hindi po ako kumpinsida sa inyo. **[07:29:34.400] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama **[07:29:34.900] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po. **[07:29:35.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kung duda ako dun sa ginawa nyo sa Metro Chau at saka dun sa Cale88, ang kabuhan po noon ay 142,198,690 o 17.3% ng 817 million ninyong kabuhan. **[07:29:51.300] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So **[07:29:51.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** pag tinanggal ko po yung dalawang yun may maiiwang pa rin 56.6% mula sa inyong calculation o yung base sa Sa bank accounts, sa insurance policies, ang may iwan po ay 463,046,459 na unexplained wealth base po sa computation niya. Tama po ba yan? **[07:30:15.760] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung wala po yung mga corporation po. Kung **[07:30:17.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** wala po yung mga corporation? **[07:30:18.720] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Apo. **[07:30:19.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Would that be correct? **[07:30:20.280] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:30:20.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And finally, Atty. Alex, you mentioned you've been conservative with respect to your estimates whether it's a percentage in the company. Whether it's an assumption you made, kung hindi po kayo conservative, kung ito po yung bare minimum, in your expertise and based on your review of the documents, ano po ba yung sukdulang hangganan? Kung ito po yung bare minimum nyo, ano po yung inyong maximum? **[07:30:51.880] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Based lang po sa mga documents po na nakita namin, hindi ko po sinama ang confidential funds po. So, 475 po yun. Yung discrepancy po namin sa AMLC, kung susundin po natin yung AMLC at hindi po kami conservative, 100 million po yun. Kung hindi po ako conservative sa GenCorp, 45% ang ginamit at i-apply nyo rin po yun dun po sa mga undeclared sales, ang impact po noon ay mga 250 million. So 350 million plus 450 million is 700 po. So parang halos magdodoble po yung amount po. **[07:31:43.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Can you be the one to compute for me, Attorney Alex, please? What would be the total of your ceiling if this is the minimum? **[07:31:51.520] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 1.5 po. **[07:31:53.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** 1.5? **[07:31:55.060] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 1 **[07:31:55.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** .5 billion po. **[07:31:57.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ang unexplained... What would be the correct description of that sir? 1.5 ang total? **[07:32:04.750] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Mga less than 1.6 po yun. Mga 1.5 po. **[07:32:09.360] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** How **[07:32:09.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** would you describe that figure sir? **[07:32:11.500] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** That will be unexplained wealth po. Kasi po yung confidential funds po, kahit alam po natin ang pinanggalingan, so parang may explained po. Pero pag ang pinanggalingan po ay hindi po legal, Nagiging unexplained din po siya kahit alam niyo po kung saan ang galing. **[07:32:30.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I'll be more specific, sir. 1.5 billion will be the maximum estimate of the undeclared wealth of the respondent from 2022 to **[07:32:42.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** 2025 **[07:32:43.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** without any double booking. **[07:32:48.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Magkakaiba pong amount sa kada taon pag sinuma total niyo, yun po yung magiging ceiling. **[07:32:52.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Would **[07:32:53.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** that be correct? **[07:32:54.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And **[07:32:55.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** one final question, sir. Kung hindi po sila nagbayad ng buwis para dyan, hindi po ba dapat binawas nyo yung buwis na dapat bayar dahil hindi naman po kanila yun at dapat binayad sa gobyerno? **[07:33:07.320] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Pwede naman pong gawin po yun. **[07:33:10.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So babawas pa rin yun kung saka sakali dun sa total, whether the high or the low? **[07:33:14.970] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, pero ang unexplained wealth po kasi, di po ba, ay yung total po nung wealth. Ngayon kung may payable po, babawas din po natin yun, kukumpitin po natin yung tax. **[07:33:26.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Babawas po yun at some point, hindi po ba? At **[07:33:28.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** some point po. **[07:33:29.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So whether it's the low of 817 or the high of 1.5, any liability would have to be subtracted or deducted from that? **[07:33:36.460] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:33:38.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you very much, Atty. Alex. The Senate President is recognized. **[07:33:44.500] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Thank you, Mr. President Officer. Merong follow-up question lang ako dito sa GN Corp. Atty. Alex. Dahil nabuksan ng ating President Officer, Ang sinasabi niyo dahil may lima silang outlet, dapat ang kanilang puhunan ay 175 million. Tama po ba? **[07:34:07.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Assuming po na 35 million po ang per **[07:34:10.350] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** outlet. **[07:34:11.010] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:34:11.970] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pero tinitignan po yung kanya lang libro, yung kanilang balance sheet. Ang kanilang puhunan ay 1.25 million. **[07:34:19.250] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:34:20.010] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Nasaan na yung 175 million? **[07:34:23.190] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po nila na-record po. **[07:34:25.230] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Bakit ho nila hindi rinecord? Ano ang kanilang objective? Bakit hindi po ire-record? **[07:34:35.780] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi ko po masabi kung ano po yung objective ng hindi pag-record ng equity pero ang isa po **[07:34:41.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** dun sa maaring dahilan is makatulong po ito pag nag-understate po sila ng income. **[07:34:52.830] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pag mag-understate sila ng... income. Dahil maliit lang yung sasabihin nila maliit lang yung kanilang puhunan. **[07:35:01.180] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kailangan po lang po nating maintindihan na hindi po perfecto ang kanila pong menu. Inconsistent po yung kanilang mga menu. Kasi po mababa po yung equity, marami silang asset. Malaki yung kanilang revenue, halos walang income. **[07:35:21.390] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So, **[07:35:22.670] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Hindi po natin pwedeng magamit po yung financial statement nila para po ma-rationalize po yung tama po na nangyayari sa negosyo. **[07:35:32.450] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Dahil wala rin dito, tinitignan ko ngayon, wala rin advances from the shareholders. **[07:35:37.450] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Tama po. **[07:35:41.100] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pwede rin ba po ginagawa ito para pagdating sa declaration sa SALN, pwedeng i-undervalue rin? **[07:35:50.420] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maari po yung dahilan. Ito yung nabanggit niyo po, Honorable Senator Winn. **[07:35:57.620] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Kung titignan niyo po, hindi po mabibili ng revenue yung mga bagong outlet. So parang hindi po kayo, hindi po sapat yung kinikita po from operations to buy the new outlet. Meron pong pinagagalingan na cash po na iba. Yun po yung isa po sa mga possibilities. Kasi kung hindi po galing sa income, Kasi lugi naman po. So kung ganun ka laging lugi, paano ka nakabili ng outlet ng additional, eh yung kita niya po doon is either lugi or napakalit lang po, parang 1 million lang po yan, napakanipis po ng ano eh. Kaya nakita **[07:36:36.660] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** niyo rin na may pumapasok, may inflow sa mga personal accounts. **[07:36:40.040] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Opo, opo. Kasi yung, kasi po, nag-aaway po yung result. **[07:36:46.980] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maaring binababaan po yung income para hindi po magbayad ng tax. But at the same time, nakikita mo rin na yung income na yun, hindi rin naman makakabili ng outlet, ng additional Jollibee branches. So kung hindi po galing sa income, hindi po galing sa operations, wala pong payable, so yun po yung question mark po kung saan po galing. **[07:37:13.030] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Ang aking track is anong motibo in the whole scheme of things? **[07:37:20.530] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Anong motibo dito sa pinag-uusapan natin? May base sa inyong experience. **[07:37:25.470] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** So, Sen. Ruins, tulad nga po nang nasabi ko, kami po nasa na-engage po for unexplained wealth. Yung kaya ko lang pong masabi, yung pinakakabisado ko lang po na motibo, lagi pong yung tax po. Kung meron pong AMLA, anti-money laundering, hindi po kasi ganun yung focus ng aming investigasyon. Magbabago po yung aming procedures kung yun po talaga yung ipofocus namin. Subalit ang aming assignment ay unexplained wealth. Kaya nga po na sabi ko, mari po may mga simptomas, hindi ko po masasabi kung yun po talaga yung mangyayari. Kaya yung best lang po na pwede ko po masabi dito, kung ano lang po yung sinasabi ng numero. At ang sinasabi po ng numero ay undeclared po siya. At meron pong Exposure po sa tax fraud dahil ikukulektaan po ng tax po yun. Maganda nga po sana pag nabayaran po yung tax, masettle po yung tax, parang tapos na po tayo. Ang pagkakaiba nga lang po sa pagkakataong ito is yung obligasyon po ng vicepresidente para po maging accountable po sa kanyang SALN. Yun lang po yung pwede ko po masabi. Pero naiintindihan ko po yung tanong nyo po, Senator, pero kulang po ang aking informasyon para makapag-conclude po. **[07:38:50.890] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kaya rin po nakikita natin na yung pagpasok ng pera sa kumpanya, magpasok ng pera sa personal accounts, hindi ho reflective dito sa mga libro, hindi ho siya nagtutugma. In other words. At pag dinugtong ho natin yan sa SALN, lalong hindi magtutugma. Maraming salamat, Mr. President. **[07:39:10.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Mr. President. Senator Judge Lacson, kindly **[07:39:15.500] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** turn **[07:39:16.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** on the mic of Senator Judge Lacson. **[07:39:20.000] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Yeah. **[07:39:21.280] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Yung sinabi niyong confidential fund na hindi niyo sinama pero maaaring isama. Ang reference niyo po ay yung binanggit niyo kanin ng Martinez versus Andigan Bayan. Malversation. Na kapag hindi ka nakapag-liquidate, ang assumption is binulsa mo. **[07:39:37.990] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Income for **[07:39:38.670] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** personal **[07:39:40.150] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** use. Thank **[07:39:40.790] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** you, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[07:39:43.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If there are no other interventions from Senator Judges, it's only 10 hours, Atty. Alex. So you've been sitting for a total of 10 hours. The witness is excused. Maraming salamat po, Atty. Alex, sa inyong panahon, oras, pasensya, at **[07:40:02.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pagsagot sa katanungan ng mga senator-judges, gayon din ng magkabilang partido sa hukumang ito. Salamat po. **[07:40:08.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** Maraming salamat rin **[07:40:09.430] Atty. Alexander B. Cabrera** po, honorable presiding officer at mga senators. **[07:40:13.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The court has been in receipt of an October 6th manifestation of the... counsel for the panel of prosecutors as well as the panel of prosecutors stating that they intend to withdraw Article 3 or bribery in the articles of impeachment. And in open court, the Honorable Diokno, I believe, stated that Attorney Alex is their last witness for Article 2 on Ilgaten on unexplained wealth. Would that be correct? **[07:40:45.470] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:40:46.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The court takes it in advisement. And given that there are some administrative matters that the court has to deal with before or right after the prosecution rests, should that be indeed their intention if they will be dropping Article 3? **[07:41:07.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The court intends to call it a day and resume tomorrow for the final manifestations to be made by the panel of prosecutors. as well as any other manifestations the parties wish to make as well as administrative matters that the court need to address if indeed the panel of prosecutors will persist in their intention to drop Article 3 and to rest altogether. Atty. Sheila, I saw you raising your hand. Were you saying hi to someone? **[07:41:42.510] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** No, I was raising my **[07:41:43.510] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** hand, Your Honor. **[07:41:44.250] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Good afternoon, Your Honor. **[07:41:45.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** What is your pleasure, ma'am? **[07:41:46.330] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you for acknowledging the defense. Just to be honest, it felt like for the last four, five hours that we're not here. Even that the witness was given extensive platform and opportunity to give his unbridled and erroneous conclusions of law and fact. But nonetheless, Your Honor, I have a few manifestations. **[07:42:17.930] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** We've heard... **[07:42:19.230] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Before the good counsel proceeds, Your Honor, I would move to strike the statement erroneous. Again, that would be a conclusion of law and totally out of order. It's up to the Honorable Court to decide whether the opinion of Attorney Cabrera is acceptable or not. And it's not in our place, whether I'm for the prosecution or for the defense, to make such irresponsible statements. I move to strike, Your Honor. **[07:42:46.670] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Well, I object. I object to that motion, Your Honor. In fact, it came from the gentleman himself. The witness gave an opinion that itself is proof that the witness only gave conclusions and not facts, Your Honor. Anyway, Your Honor. I **[07:43:04.830] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** think **[07:43:05.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If she'll **[07:43:05.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** allow the court to rule. **[07:43:06.530] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor. **[07:43:07.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Allow the court to rule. Let it remain in the record. Honorable Chel, that is how the prosecution clearly disagrees with the opinion of the expert from their point of view. She described it from their perspective and not necessarily the perspective of the court nor the prosecution. **[07:43:25.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And **[07:43:26.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** it is not per se strikeable from the point of view of the court. **[07:43:32.330] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** May I make a counter manifestation, Your Honor? **[07:43:35.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Honorable Diokno. **[07:43:37.230] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** That in the view of the prosecution, the statement of the defense that the opinion is erroneous is totally out of place and has no meaning in this court. Thank you. **[07:43:50.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** That is noted. Attorney Sheila, you may proceed. **[07:43:53.400] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor. We've heard over the last four or five hours of interpolations and interjections from the members, honorable members of this court, the term piercing of the corporate veil. We have here Kukan International Corporation versus Reyes, and I believe this is a matter of mandatory judicial notice for this court, where the court said, to disregard the separate juridical personality of a corporation, the wrongdoing must be established clearly and convincingly. cannot be presumed. Otherwise, an injustice that was never unintended may result from an erroneous application. And it bears reiterating that piercing the veil of corporate fiction is frowned upon. And these are the words of the Supreme Court in Kukan International Corporation v. Reyes so that we don't mislead the public na nanonood sa atin. Tutal, naglaan tayo ng napakahabang panahon at oras para pag-usapan ng mga korporasyon na ito ang opinion ng witness na binigyan ng mahigit limang oras para magbigay ng kanyang mga konklusyon at ng kanyang mga opinion. **[07:45:14.750] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Mas maganda na maunawaan at malaman ng ating mga kababayan kung ano ba ang sabi ng Korte Suprema dito. Ito ang sabi ng Korte Suprema. "It cannot be presumed. To disregard the separate juridical personality of a corporation, the wrongdoing must be established clearly and convincingly." Again. "It cannot be presumed." Now, that witness has answered over time and repeatedly that, unang-una sa lahat, wala siyang sapat na oras. Pangalawa, hindi niya hawak ang lahat ng dokumento to form sufficient basis or ng kompletong opinion. Kaya hindi ko alam kung saan nanggaling ang kanyang mga opinion na ipinalaganap niya buong maghapon sa bulwagang ito at sa harap ng sambayang Pilipino. Anyway, your honor, that's my first manifestation. Of course, I presume that the prosecution has a comment to my manifestation. **[07:46:19.820] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, **[07:46:20.140] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** if I may be heard, if your honor, please. **[07:46:22.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I **[07:46:22.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** was hoping otherwise, but I doubt that. **[07:46:24.480] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Sorry, **[07:46:25.040] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** your honor. **[07:46:25.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honorable **[07:46:25.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Diokno is recognized. **[07:46:27.060] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** I believe these statements by the defense counsel are really out of place. That's meant for a closing argument, perhaps, but not for this time. before this court. And again, if I may bring to the attention of the court other Supreme Court decisions which I believe hold otherwise compared to what the good counsel has been trying to push before this honorable court. Rodrigo Villanueva v. People, GR No. 218652, Feb. 23, 2022. Piercing of corporate veil is allowed if juridical entities are used as vehicles. to commit illegal acts. I quote, Since accused Villanueva used said companies as means or vehicles for the circumvention of statutes, in this case governing procurement of government supplies, etc., such acts should not be countenanced and the court pierced the corporate veil. You have another case, Concept Builders v. NLRC, GR No. 108-734, 29 May 1996. Again, to the same effect. And there's another case, if your honor please, Toledo Construction Corporation Employees Association versus Toledo Construction Corporation where the court said that although mere ownership by a single stockholder or by another corporation is not of itself sufficient ground for disregarding the separate corporate personality, this can be disregarded if it is shown that the corporation is used in a fraudulent scheme. **[07:48:06.570] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, I think I need to respond to that manifestation just so we do not mislead the public again with respect to these points of law, Your Honor. I think with the points or the portions of the decisions stated by or mentioned by the gentleman in response to what I had stated earlier are actually Not inconsistent with the principle of law that I had stated earlier. Again, I will repeat. To disregard the separate juridical personality of a corporation, the wrongdoing must be established clearly and convincingly. It cannot be presumed. Now, the first case that was recited by the gentleman stated that since the accused committed etc. etc. actually supports The decision that I just cited. It means that if there was already a finding by the court that the accused had indeed committed certain things then the same had already gone through trial which also supports that the presumption had been or that the wrongdoing cannot be presumed your honor and therefore must be proved. And the second and third cases that he had cited which according to him also are of the same point, actually are not inconsistent with this principle, Your Honor. It cannot **[07:49:39.760] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** be presumed. The **[07:49:41.040] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** wrongdoing cannot be presumed. It has to be clearly and convincingly established. **[07:49:47.220] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Just one sentence. **[07:49:50.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let's finish this, Honorable Diokno, with your indulgence. The court instructed, **[07:49:56.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The presiding officers instructed the clerk of court to take note of the cases cited by both parties. We shall reproduce the same and furnish all the senator judges through their official emails with a copy of the three cases mentioned by the Honorable Diokno and the case cited by Attorney Sheila for their information and reference. As you stated, as Attorney Sheila stated, This is a decision of the court and the court can take judicial notice of it since any arguments, further arguments from the counsels on this matter. Let the senator judges evaluate them on its face and based on their reading and appreciation of the actual cases cited by both parties. Move on to your next manifestation, Atty. Sheila, please. **[07:50:43.840] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Your Honor, before we get to the second manifestation, may I just make a brief statement? I think it should be clear in the record. **[07:50:48.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You said one sentence, okay. **[07:50:49.980] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Yes, Your **[07:50:50.460] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** Honor. Insofar as clear and convincing evidence is concerned, assuming that good counsel is correct, ano pa po ba ang clear and convincing kundi yung naipakita natin kanina that 69% of one of the companies was undeclared and unreported income and 51% of the other company, Metro City Crown, was also undeclared and unreported. So, what kind of clear and convincing evidence do we need if that is not yet clear and convincing in itself? **[07:51:21.960] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Oh, forgive me, Your Honor. I thought the gentleman had actually... **[07:51:25.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** That's exactly my **[07:51:25.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** problem, Honorable Diokno. This will not stop. Atty. Sheila, let that be the last statement on this matter. **[07:51:31.240] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I'm sorry, Your Honor, but this involves the right of the respondent because, forgive me, I just heard just a few minutes ago that the gentleman said that this is not yet the time for any closing statement, Your Honor. And he **[07:51:45.400] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** may **[07:51:46.000] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** have forgotten that the respondent has not yet even began presenting its evidence, Your Honor. So, to conclude or to make that conclusion, that's out of order. **[07:51:57.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Well, to be fair, let that remain in the record too. And he was given a better opportunity earlier actually through an interjection of a senator judge which he did not take advantage of. Let that remain in the record as well for whatever it's worth. Again, let that be the last statement on this matter on piercing the corporate veil. Your next manifestation, attorney Sheila. **[07:52:19.240] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, **[07:52:19.540] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** your honor. Again, good afternoon. I heard the presiding officer mentioned earlier that there will still be a setting tomorrow for some administrative matters. However, it's only 547 and it has been repeated over and over again by the prosecution that they would want to streamline the proceeding and achieve speed. In this case, we're here, the prosecution. Both the prosecution and the respondent are here and I think the only remaining administrative matter on the part of the prosecution without of course encroaching in their prerogative is that since they had already Withdraw Article 3 and had manifested yesterday that this witness is already their last witness, then the next would be the formal offer which I think this court can settle today and give the parties time to file their respective pleadings thereon so that we also save time and both the prosecution and the respondent would no longer be required to return here for administrative matters. **[07:53:31.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Actually, it's more for the court, Attorney Sheila. I would have to beg the indulgence of the parties. It's more for the court because we are finalizing some administrative matters that we are not yet sure about regarding the order the court will issue especially with respect to confidential documents that will be made part of the formal offer that we will require the counsel for the panel of prosecutors to submit. We are in the middle of hopefully we'll be able to iron it out tonight. We haven't had time given the successive trials for the whole day to be able to come up with a rational order on how to deal with the confidentiality of the documents and at the same time be able to be transparent with respect to the court's proceedings. **[07:54:24.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So it's more for the court, really, so that tomorrow we would be able to give sequential rulings and orders that would have to be made and take effect after the respondent rests. But most likely, it'll be for half a day and I don't think you need a full complement tomorrow. In fact, we might... **[07:54:50.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** We might just suspend today's trial for tomorrow given that it will be purely procedural matters although I hope I will be joined by my colleagues nevertheless for tomorrow's trial. So it's more for the court, Attorney Sheila. That's why as I said, we're taking it in advisement while we iron out some details to address those issues. Yes, Senator Judge Lacson. **[07:55:19.820] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Since we are anticipating, sir, na half day lang tayo, baka pwedeng after lunch na tayo mag-resume tomorrow? Pwede rin naman. **[07:55:27.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pwede rin. **[07:55:29.620] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** No objection, Your Honor. **[07:55:31.760] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Or **[07:55:32.240] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** we can do 8.30 a.m. tomorrow. **[07:55:39.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Sotto is recognized. **[07:55:43.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ah! **[07:55:47.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** ... **[07:56:05.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Sotto? **[07:56:07.800] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Parang hindi naman kagulo. I move that we suspend until 1 p.m. tomorrow. **[07:56:15.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** There is a motion to suspend until 1 p.m. tomorrow but with the indulgence of Senator Sotto. Attorney Sheila, do you have... Other manifestations or do you want, can the manifestations be delivered tomorrow? Do you want to deliver them today before we suspend and act on the motion of Senator Judge Sotto? **[07:56:36.640] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I can do the rest tomorrow, Your Honor. **[07:56:38.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You can do the rest tomorrow? At 1pm? **[07:56:41.160] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, **[07:56:41.660] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** at 1pm. **[07:56:42.640] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** I **[07:56:43.040] Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno** also have some manifestations regarding exhibit markings but I can do that tomorrow as well. **[07:56:49.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay, then we're agreed. Acting on the motion of Senator Judge Sotto, the trial is suspended. Until tomorrow, 1pm.