WEBVTT 00:06:03.800 --> 00:06:06.800 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The sergeant at arms is directed to make a proclamation. 00:06:09.700 --> 00:06:19.220 Alfredo Sotto Corpuz: All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the impeachment court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. 00:06:20.250 --> 00:06:29.910 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo. 00:06:42.350 --> 00:06:44.710 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Let's bow our heads down. 00:06:47.400 --> 00:06:47.560 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: I 00:06:47.560 --> 00:07:59.700 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: pray today is from 1 Corinthians chapter 13 verses 1 to 7. If I could speak all the languages of the earth and of the angels but did not love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy and if I understood all God's secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains but did not love others, I would be nothing. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it. But if I don't love others, I would have gained nothing. Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable. And it keeps on no record of being wrong. It does not rejoice about injustice, but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith. It's always hopeful and endures through every circumstance. This we ask of you, Almighty God. Amen. 00:08:11.300 --> 00:08:47.910 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Sen. Judge De La Rosa Sen. Judge Ejercito Sen. Judge Estrada Sen. Judge Goh Sen. Judge Ontiveros Sen. Judge Lacson Sen. Judge Lapid Sen. Judge Legarda Sen. Judge Marcoleta Sen. Judge Marcos Sen. Judge Padilla Sen. Judge Pangilina Sen. Judge Soto III Sen. Judge Tulfo Erwin Sen. Judge Tulfo Rafi Sen. Judge Villanueva Sen. Judge Villar Camil Senator Judge Villar, Mark, Senator Judge Zubiri, the Presiding Officer, Senator Judge Escudero, the Senate President, Senator Judge Gatchalian. 00:08:48.430 --> 00:08:52.410 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: With 16 Senator Judges present, the Chair declares the presence of a Court. 00:08:53.130 --> 00:08:53.610 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: In 00:08:53.610 --> 00:09:02.210 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: accordance with the Rules of Procedure on Impeachment Trials, the Chair now recognizes the duly elected Presiding Officer to preside over the proceedings of the Impeachment Court. 00:09:03.050 --> 00:09:07.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Mr. Senate President. The Clerk of Court will please call the case before the Impeachment Court. 00:09:08.270 --> 00:09:14.130 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Case number 004-2026 is the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:39.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the information of the senator, judges, and the parties, we shall approve the journal of yesterday's proceedings at a later time, given that it is not yet ready due to the long trial yesterday. But hopefully within the day before we adjourn, we shall be able to approve the journal for yesterday's proceedings. Appearances of the parties. 00:09:41.500 --> 00:09:44.740 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearances for the prosecution. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:47.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the respondent. 00:09:47.700 --> 00:09:50.420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearance for the respondent. 00:09:50.420 --> 00:09:50.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I 00:09:50.660 --> 00:09:55.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: presume, Honorable Ridon, Attorney May will again be handling the cross-examination? 00:09:55.660 --> 00:09:56.940 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Yes, Your Honor. She will. 00:09:58.060 --> 00:10:07.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Ronel, I see you in the first gallery. The clerk is directed through the OSAA to kindly situate Attorney Ronel of the MLC to the witness stand. 00:10:09.690 --> 00:10:10.210 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Your Honor. 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:12.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Honorable Redon. What is your pleasure, sir? 00:10:12.290 --> 00:10:20.110 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: But before proceeding to the continuation of cross, we have several administrative matters relating to the bank representatives. 00:10:20.590 --> 00:10:21.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, sir. 00:10:22.070 --> 00:10:28.770 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: We would want to know from the court if the subpoenaed banks and their representatives are in fact in attendance today. 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:32.720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:52.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: was informed, I am being informed rather by the clerk now, that all 00:10:55.700 --> 00:11:03.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sabinad officials from banks and insurance companies are here. All 16 of them. 00:11:05.950 --> 00:11:07.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sorry, only 15. 00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:11.740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Excuse me. 00:11:11.980 --> 00:11:12.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, 00:11:23.650 --> 00:11:38.040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: okay. All 15 banking and insurance companies are here with us. The 16th would be the BAR commissioner. Rather, the BAR official included in the list. 00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:59.880 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Thank you for the information, Your Honor. If they are in attendance, it is the prosecution's request for a conference of the parties to be undertaken with them so that we can be able to obtain preliminary information relating to their identities, their type of work, and among related matters, Your Honor. 00:12:00.560 --> 00:12:07.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What does the respondent say? Attorney Sheila or Attorney Mark? Attorney Sheila, yes. 00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:10.470 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: That's fine with us, Your Honor. 00:12:10.930 --> 00:12:17.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can that be done while we're proceeding with the cross and redirect and recross, if any, of Attorney Ranel? 00:12:19.280 --> 00:12:21.780 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Yes, Your Honor. It is something we can do. 00:12:21.780 --> 00:12:22.260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney 00:12:22.260 --> 00:12:22.480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sheila? 00:12:22.680 --> 00:12:41.520 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor, just one request in relation to the request for a conference with the prosecution together with the witnesses. We will just ask that this be done under... or with the supervision of the court, Your Honor. 00:12:41.940 --> 00:13:04.020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, the Clerk of Court is directed to send the representative of the court to oversee the party's conference with the witnesses from the banks and insurance companies. You can proceed to do that while we are doing the cross-redirect and recross, if any, of the witness. 00:13:04.280 --> 00:13:04.920 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Thank you, Your Honor. 00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:07.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Anything else, Honorable Ridon? 00:13:07.520 --> 00:13:11.620 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: We are done, Your Honor. I will yield to Atty. Divina Grash. 00:13:20.020 --> 00:13:20.500 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Good 00:13:25.210 --> 00:13:26.650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: morning, Your Honors. 00:13:28.330 --> 00:13:30.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good morning. 00:13:38.130 --> 00:13:52.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ronel, naunawaan niyo po ba na kayo'y magpapatuloy sa inyong pagbigay ng inyong testimonya sa hukumang ito base sa inyong pinanumpaan kahapon po sa harap ng hukumang ito at sa pamamagitan ng Clerk of Court? 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:54.300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Opo, naintindihan po. 00:13:57.680 --> 00:13:58.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. 00:14:03.280 --> 00:14:05.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mark, are you ready for your cross? 00:14:05.580 --> 00:14:08.720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor, but just a short manifestation in order. 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed. What is your manifestation? 00:14:10.900 --> 00:15:08.110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, I'll just read my manifestation so I don't deviate, but I hope it doesn't take away from the sincerity. In all humility, Your Honor, our intention in cross-examination is to test the credibility of the witness, among others. And part of testing that credibility is to confront him not just with documents but with salient provisions of the law so that we can demonstrate whether or not his interpretation and application of the law is correct. So when we read portions of the law during our cross-examination, it is never our intention to cause intimidation. Especially to the members of this honorable impeachment court, lalong-lalo na po kay Sen. Judge Lapid, who, if I may say, has been very gracious to us. Maraming salamat po sa mahablang ka, sir. But if in any way a different message was indirectly conveyed, I personally apologize and commit to be more circumspect moving forward. Thank you, Your Honor. 00:15:08.780 --> 00:15:09.220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 00:15:09.220 --> 00:15:14.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: manifestation of Atty. Mark is well taken and duly noted. Thank you, Atty. Mark. 00:15:14.860 --> 00:15:15.560 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. 00:15:15.560 --> 00:15:16.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If you are ready, you may proceed 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:17.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: with your crosser. 00:15:18.300 --> 00:15:19.620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Good morning, Atty. 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:20.460 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Buenaventura. 00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:20.640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Good 00:15:20.640 --> 00:15:21.600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: morning, Your Honor. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:39.620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, just to provide the starting point, the MLC cannot conclude through a mere reading of the covered transaction reports or CTRs and suspicious transaction reports or STRs that funds were sourced from any unlawful activity, correct? 00:15:41.180 --> 00:15:45.520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Conclude? Yes, Your Honor. Only based on what's provided in the records, Your Honor. 00:15:45.520 --> 00:15:52.910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, you submitted a report of CTRs and STRs for corporations, correct? 00:15:52.910 --> 00:15:54.330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 00:15:54.330 --> 00:16:05.090 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To name a few, GenCorp Industries Inc., Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, and Cale88 Foods Corporation, correct? 00:16:05.090 --> 00:16:06.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, may I be allowed to check 00:16:06.750 --> 00:16:07.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: with my record? 00:16:07.910 --> 00:16:26.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: May continuing authority is granted to Attorney Ronel to refer to his documents during his testimony. Likewise, continuing authority to assisting counsels from both sides, both parties is given to approach the witness at any point in time. 00:16:28.110 --> 00:16:31.370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, can you repeat po yung corporations mentioned? I just 00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:36.170 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: mentioned the several GenCorp industries. Kasama po dyan. Metro City Chow. 00:16:36.170 --> 00:16:37.030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:16:37.030 --> 00:16:39.850 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And then Cali88 Foods Corporation. 00:16:39.850 --> 00:16:40.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:16:40.490 --> 00:16:45.030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, lahat naman po yung corporation. Wala naman po ibang entities na partnerships. Tama po? 00:16:45.030 --> 00:16:45.330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 00:16:45.330 --> 00:16:45.470 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. 00:16:46.130 --> 00:16:55.930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po ma-determine, Your Honor, if they are partnerships or corporations. I can't recall if it's indicated in the records, Your Honor. 00:16:56.050 --> 00:17:07.950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Okay. Now, the AMLC merely received the CTRs and STRs from the banks and other covered corporations, correct? 00:17:07.950 --> 00:17:09.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, covered persons po. 00:17:09.530 --> 00:17:13.770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And then after you received them, you summarized them in your reports, tama? 00:17:18.650 --> 00:17:32.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In the, in what we submit, we didn't summarize po at least for the juridical persons except yun pong in relation to the request of the prosecution. Prosecution po, Your Honor. 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:47.980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, but let me be more specific. What were submitted to the House Committee on Justice on April 22, 2026 were only summary reports of the CTRs and STRs, correct? 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:49.160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We did not submit 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:58.950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: to the House Committee on Justice those with pertaining to juridical persons, Your Honor, because they were not included in their subpoena by 00:17:58.950 --> 00:18:00.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: back then, Your Honor. 00:18:00.050 --> 00:18:06.150 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To be clarified, sinabit niyo ba sa House of Representatives yung mga mismong CTRs and STRs? 00:18:06.150 --> 00:18:07.630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:18:07.630 --> 00:18:09.730 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sa House of Committee on Justice? 00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:11.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. It was 00:18:11.550 --> 00:18:12.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: part of their subpoena, 00:18:12.890 --> 00:18:13.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 00:18:13.530 --> 00:18:28.030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, in other words, in preparing your reports, let me ask you this question. Do you rely on the actual CTRs? and STRs, meaning the data contained therein. May 00:18:28.030 --> 00:18:29.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I ask po what reports are you 00:18:29.550 --> 00:18:29.890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: referring 00:18:29.890 --> 00:18:30.810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: to, Your Honor? 00:18:30.830 --> 00:18:44.110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: The reports that you submitted before this court, for example, the financial intelligence report and the several other marked documents, the confidential information sharing report and all those. 00:18:45.930 --> 00:18:51.990 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It is as what was stated, Poa, Your Honor, in those documents. If they made reference to the... 00:19:02.210 --> 00:19:11.070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sige. In terms of the tabular summaries, you only base the information that you indicated there on the CTRs and STRs, correct? 00:19:11.070 --> 00:19:12.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. That's correct. 00:19:12.350 --> 00:19:23.980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, there was no further verification on the part of the AMLC Whether there were clerical errors in these CTRs or STRs, correct? 00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:26.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 00:19:27.820 --> 00:19:30.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. It is what appears in the request, Your Honor. 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:30.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So 00:19:30.840 --> 00:19:40.120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: no further verification also whether there were inaccuracies or incomplete information in these CTRs or STRs, correct? 00:19:40.120 --> 00:19:42.040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As of the time of the subpoena and 00:19:42.040 --> 00:19:47.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the documents we submitted, yes, Your Honor. We submitted what appeared in the... In our records, Your Honor. 00:19:47.700 --> 00:20:03.940 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, in one of your reports submitted to the House Committee on Justice, and you testified on this yesterday, you stated that there was a BPI system bug that caused a discrepancy of over 2 billion pesos in the records of attorney months. 00:20:04.060 --> 00:20:13.560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Is leading, Your Honor. The witness never mentioned BPI as the one who requested the correction of the report. 00:20:13.840 --> 00:20:15.140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: If you know if it's from BPI. 00:20:15.500 --> 00:20:21.320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'll allow it if the witness knows because it also came from the direct that BPI made a correction. 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:39.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I never mentioned yesterday any covert person. In fact, if I recall, I mentioned a covert person made a request for correction. If possible, may I be confronted with the document being referred to so I can... Make the necessary answer your honor. 00:20:39.030 --> 00:20:46.890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, I'm not talking, I've moved on from the corporations. I'm talking now about the CTRs and STRs of attorney months. Do you 00:20:46.890 --> 00:20:50.050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: recall that there was a rectification made? 00:20:50.050 --> 00:20:53.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I did mention your honor. I mentioned there was a cover person who made the request your honor. 00:20:54.010 --> 00:20:56.630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: But I didn't mention any entity your honor. 00:20:56.630 --> 00:21:09.110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Any entity, okay. Para lang maliwanag, may nireport po ang bangko na 2 billion mahigit for attorney months. Pero ang tamang amount po ay 2 million lamang. Tama? 00:21:09.110 --> 00:21:13.950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po akong na-mention na ganun, Your Honor. I can't recall anything on that, Your Honor. 00:21:13.950 --> 00:21:15.590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But can't you 00:21:15.590 --> 00:21:20.910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: testify on that now? Whether you can confirm based on the reports that you made kung meron ganung incident? 00:21:20.930 --> 00:21:27.650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Can I show po the records po, Your Honor? So I can answer based on the records, Your Honor. 00:21:27.710 --> 00:21:34.750 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: May the witness be confronted with the relevant documents, Your Honor, being referred to by the Defense Council. 00:21:35.320 --> 00:21:36.280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will do that, your honor. 00:21:37.820 --> 00:21:38.260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Move 00:21:38.260 --> 00:21:38.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: on, counsel. 00:21:38.880 --> 00:22:00.240 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'll move on for now as I give time to my assisting counsels. Now, my question is this. You mentioned about that error in the amount of 2 billion pesos. Regardless of whether you said you mentioned or did not mention the name of the entity. 00:22:00.600 --> 00:22:01.400 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, your honor. 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:02.420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'm not yet 00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:02.860 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: done with 00:22:02.860 --> 00:22:03.340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: my question. 00:22:03.950 --> 00:22:09.030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly wait for him to finish his questioning, his question rather, Atty. May. Now, this 00:22:09.030 --> 00:22:15.830 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: amount was nevertheless included in your reports that were submitted before the House Committee on Justice, correct? 00:22:16.110 --> 00:22:20.710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, Your Honor, because the witness already testified earlier that he never mentioned the amount. 00:22:20.950 --> 00:22:21.930 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: He was about to answer, 00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:24.710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor. That's precisely the reason why I... 00:22:24.710 --> 00:22:24.730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He was asking 00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:25.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to be confronted 00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:26.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: by the document, Atty. Mark. 00:22:29.770 --> 00:22:35.290 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I can just ask him now, Your Honor, are you familiar or do you have personal knowledge of the amount based on the reports? 00:22:35.570 --> 00:22:40.530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Already asked and answered, Your Honor. That's why the witness requested that he be confronted with the necessary document. 00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:43.790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Ronel, would 00:22:43.790 --> 00:22:44.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you know? 00:22:46.090 --> 00:23:00.150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I have a figure in my journal but I know it's not accurate because I know it's not what appears on the record. So if there is a document that I can be confronted with, it would be better po your honor so I can accurately answer that. 00:23:00.150 --> 00:23:00.590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 00:23:00.590 --> 00:23:03.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: can in the meantime move on to another topic while you're getting the document. 00:23:03.990 --> 00:23:08.850 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're ready with the document your honor. Can I ask my assisting counsel to confront him with the document? 00:23:12.620 --> 00:23:22.840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This is actually on page 11. Paragraph 25 of the Confidential Information Sharing Report that the same witness submitted to this honorable court. 00:23:24.910 --> 00:23:27.050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Are you in that portion already? 00:23:27.050 --> 00:23:27.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:23:27.690 --> 00:23:29.670 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This is paragraph 25? 00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:30.810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Oo. 00:23:31.210 --> 00:23:32.130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can we ask you 00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:39.880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: to read the salient portions where an amount was indicated there pertaining to how much? 00:23:40.100 --> 00:23:41.760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po ba? So, 00:23:41.860 --> 00:23:44.100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: can I just read the paragraph 25? 00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:45.370 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Go ahead, sir. 00:23:45.370 --> 00:24:07.090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay. Further clarification with BPI, disclosed that the 13 open parenthesis 1, 3, closed parenthesis MCs aggregating PHP 2.339 billion and payable to attorney Carpio were procured by Nutri Asia, 8 billion. 00:24:07.090 --> 00:24:07.490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's okay. 00:24:07.550 --> 00:24:20.670 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can you move on to paragraph 27? Wherein it says... It's the BPI system bug. Can you read the entire paragraph for the record? 00:24:21.150 --> 00:25:17.650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: However, in a letter dated 6 April 2026 signed by the Senior Vice President and Head of BPI's Transaction Banking Division, Institutional Banking Segment, the bank requested for the deletion of 13, open parenthesis, 1, 3, close parenthesis, cover transaction report, open parenthesis. records pertaining to attorney Carpio. According to BPI, a system bug from a source application system resulted in inaccurate amounts on the said records. That based on their verification, the actual amounts of MCs procured for attorney Carpio from the reports affected by the system bug are below PHP 500,000. Open parenthesis ranging from PHP 100,000 to PHP 455,357.14 Close 00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:18.310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: parenthesis. 00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:19.110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May 00:25:19.110 --> 00:25:21.810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: total amount ba dyan? Yun sa correct amount? 00:25:23.490 --> 00:25:24.130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Wala. 00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:28.880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:42.180 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I cannot see. It wasn't specified there. At any rate, the incorrect or the rectified 00:25:42.180 --> 00:25:42.940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Go ahead. 00:25:43.040 --> 00:25:43.780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Is it the 00:25:45.990 --> 00:25:56.470 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang what I read earlier po sa paragraph 25, further clarification with BPI disclosed that the 1313 MCs aggregating PHP 2.33 billion and payable to, 00:25:56.470 --> 00:25:59.250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: ilan po yung may amount na malaking nakalagay? 00:25:59.330 --> 00:26:07.250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So that's the aggregate amount. At any rate, it's indicated there na it had to be rectified. Yan 2.339 billion, correct? 00:26:07.450 --> 00:26:28.900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, Your Honor. I request that the statement made that the aggregate amount is 2. point three because that the witness never made that conclusion requested to be corrected he just read what was in the document but he never made that conclusion it was uh the defense council who made who supplied that conclusion for the witness that's 00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:34.470 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: why we're clarifying your honor because he's the author of this uh or at least one of the 00:26:34.470 --> 00:26:34.770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He 00:26:34.770 --> 00:26:36.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: was one of those who wrote that report. 00:26:36.750 --> 00:26:37.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, your 00:26:37.050 --> 00:26:41.830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: honor. Let me clarify. This document existed when I joined. So, when it 00:26:41.830 --> 00:26:42.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: was a 00:26:42.130 --> 00:26:45.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: subpoena, I just requested the... 00:26:45.010 --> 00:26:48.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, that's not the table you're referring to. That's the report. 00:26:48.510 --> 00:26:53.470 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: How about paragraph 28? Can you read that paragraph for us, please? Just to put clarity. 00:26:54.830 --> 00:27:20.570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Paragraph 28, number 28. With this request and granting that it is already correct this time, it would appear that the total amount of... MCs procured by NAI in favor of a 30-car appeal would only be PHP 2,110,714.29 and not PHP 2,334,617,151.92. 00:27:20.570 --> 00:27:21.110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So 00:27:21.110 --> 00:27:32.030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: it's clear then that it was first reported as 2 billion plus, the transaction, based on paragraph 28 on your reading of that. But the correct amount should have been only 2 million plus, correct? 00:27:32.370 --> 00:28:02.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. It only stated here that with this request and granting if it is already correct this time, it would appear that the total amount, I'm just reading because I cannot make that conclusion. Your Honor, because I'm just basing it on what is stated in the record. It would appear that the total amount MCs procured by NIA in favor of Attorney Carpio would only be PHP 2,110,714.21 and not PHP 2,334,6171,51.92, Your Honor. 00:28:02.120 --> 00:28:13.440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, so isn't it your position that you rectified this amount or no? In your reports, just to make the issue simple. 00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:15.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: in our uh in 00:28:15.060 --> 00:28:17.040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: this report your honor no 00:28:17.230 --> 00:28:20.450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: no no in uh the in your submissions with uh uh 00:28:20.450 --> 00:28:22.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: in our submissions to this honorable 00:28:22.010 --> 00:28:22.790 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: correct correct 00:28:22.790 --> 00:28:26.250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yes uh it was correct uh there were rectifications here on 00:28:26.250 --> 00:28:30.210 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: oh you know uh that's just my point that that you had to rectify no no 00:28:30.210 --> 00:28:51.190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: your honor again that's misleading because as testified on yesterday by this witness there were several reasons for the rectification and not just the request from the supposed So we cannot attribute the correction solely from the correction requested by that covered institution. 00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:51.470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I would have 00:28:51.470 --> 00:29:00.470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to sustain, Atty. Mark, because I remember the witness yesterday citing three or four reasons for rectification. Would that be correct, Atty. Ranel? 00:29:00.630 --> 00:29:01.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 00:29:02.770 --> 00:29:05.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So not only because of the submission of BPI. 00:29:06.110 --> 00:29:07.250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, your honor. 00:29:07.250 --> 00:29:19.310 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, let me paraphrase my question, your honor. So the submission of NBI was one of the reasons among others that you rectified that amount from 2 billion to 2 million, correct? 2 billion plus 2 million, correct? 00:29:19.310 --> 00:29:21.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: BPI, your honor. You said NBI. 00:29:21.350 --> 00:29:22.110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: BPI, BPI. 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:26.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We... Sorry, can you... 00:29:26.140 --> 00:29:31.520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So that request from BPI was one of the reasons for the rectification, correct? 00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:34.520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Among others, among other 00:29:34.520 --> 00:29:34.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: reasons. 00:30:00.580 --> 00:31:07.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Now, there was a request. We validated that. Of course, the request is simply a request. It can be denied if there's no basis. It can be granted if there's basis. In the same way that we are doing it whenever there are requests from other covered persons. If they want to have it corrected, we have to validate first. But not all the times that we grant them. So, as of the time that they made the request, that was indicated in what I've read. We have to validate that. So at that time, the record stood as it was because we have not yet validated it. They simply sent a letter. When we submitted to this honorable court for transparency or honor, it is already what is already as corrected based on the request because we have validated that. So we never rectified anything because there was no error in the first place when we submitted before the house. at this point because it's it's the bank the covered sorry it's a covered person which made that request and as of the time we haven't yet validated that your honor for clarification and transparency to this honorable court your honor all 00:31:07.360 --> 00:31:11.760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: right but at any rate you validated it and you made the necessary changes 00:31:11.760 --> 00:31:13.220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yes your honor that's correct 00:31:13.220 --> 00:31:26.560 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: okay so uh my question is this if further verification is necessary is it the banks or the covered institutions or the depositor himself that can provide it? 00:31:28.780 --> 00:32:08.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Since the reports are submitted by covered persons, it would be the covered persons who can, who at least in so far as I recall with our guidelines, it's the covered persons because The customer or the account holder are in the first place prohibited from being informed that there is a CTR or STR file. It's actually, as you mentioned, I think one of the provisions cited yesterday, it's confidential. Covered persons cannot inform their clients that CTRs or STRs are reported. So it's actually the covered person who should, in response to your question, Your Honor, who should file that, Your Honor. 00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:09.770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. So, 00:32:09.810 --> 00:32:17.190 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: in terms of the investigation, you do this in coordination with your legal evaluation department, correct? 00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:19.550 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: LES? 00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:24.280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm unable to disclose internal operations, your honor. 00:32:24.460 --> 00:32:32.000 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You're also not able to disclose that it's done in coordination with the compliance and investigation department? 00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm unable to make the disclosure. 00:32:34.340 --> 00:32:40.220 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's okay. But at any rate, as executive director, you can initiate any investigation, correct? 00:32:40.220 --> 00:32:41.200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:42.480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Proactively. 00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:43.540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:32:43.540 --> 00:32:48.360 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, and in line with an investigation, you prepare reports, of course. 00:32:50.160 --> 00:32:50.920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Of your 00:32:50.920 --> 00:32:51.820 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: investigation. 00:32:51.820 --> 00:32:55.960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Report on investigation for money laundering, Your Honor. 00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:56.600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes. 00:32:56.600 --> 00:32:57.200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:32:57.500 --> 00:33:04.760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And then, of course, your report is still subject to review by the AMLC, correct? AMLC... 00:33:04.760 --> 00:33:05.520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Council. 00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:06.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:06.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:08.060 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Because... 00:33:10.370 --> 00:33:16.790 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: As you testified earlier, this is because you act under the control and supervision of the AMLC, correct? 00:33:16.790 --> 00:33:22.950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. I never mentioned control and supervision. If I recall, that was your words, Your Honor. 00:33:22.950 --> 00:33:27.290 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But you agreed to it. Are you under control and supervision of the AMLC? 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.620 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I don't recall if that's the exact wording. 00:33:31.620 --> 00:33:33.160 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Or are you independent from 00:33:33.160 --> 00:33:33.780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: them? 00:33:34.120 --> 00:33:38.800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, I can't recall that it's what I stated in the law, Your Honor. 00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:49.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, I recall your honor based on what you flash your order is we are there to assist the council in the performance of their mandate, your honor. 00:33:49.360 --> 00:33:49.620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. 00:33:50.060 --> 00:34:04.000 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, with regard to your investigation report, the council or the AMLC members can use your report as basis or they can altogether disregard it, correct? 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, your honor. 00:34:06.890 --> 00:34:14.030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yesterday, you identified certain transactions relating to Kale88 Foods Corporation. Do you recall that? 00:34:14.030 --> 00:34:14.950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:34:14.950 --> 00:34:24.440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, my question to you is this. Do you confirm that Kale88 Foods Corporation has a separate and distinct personality from VP Sara? 00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:26.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to 00:34:26.240 --> 00:34:35.940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: confirm that. I don't. We have no visibility on who owns or the ownership or what are the interests of VP Saray or 00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:37.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: who owns Cale88. 00:34:37.140 --> 00:34:37.520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, 00:34:37.540 --> 00:34:38.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: but 00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:45.820 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: based on your knowledge of the law, corporation has a distinct and separate and distinct juridical personality with an individual. 00:34:46.100 --> 00:35:00.410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, Your Honor. This witness will be incompetent to testify, Your Honor, because as he has already... Manifested, he has no visibility, is not in possession of any filings with the SEC by this corporation. 00:35:00.410 --> 00:35:00.910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: As 00:35:00.910 --> 00:35:04.050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: a 00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:04.490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: lawyer, 00:35:04.490 --> 00:35:16.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: as a lawyer, you can answer that indeed a corporation is a separate juridical personality from that of a natural person who may or may not be a stockholder of that corporation. 00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:21.680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor, in my limited knowledge of the commercial lawyer, corporate law. 00:35:21.930 --> 00:35:32.070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Oh, you're being very modest, attorney. But do you confirm also that Cale88 Foods Corporation has a separate and distinct personality from attorney Manz? 00:35:32.310 --> 00:35:38.830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: In the first place, Your Honor, this witness has never testified that he is aware that this entity is indeed the corporation. 00:35:38.830 --> 00:35:39.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What's the objection, 00:35:39.210 --> 00:35:39.570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor? 00:35:39.570 --> 00:35:47.970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: The objection is misleading, Your Honor. It assumes a fact not yet on record, at least based on the testimony of this witness. 00:35:47.970 --> 00:35:48.230 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just 00:35:48.230 --> 00:35:54.360 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: trying to elicit, Your Honor, and information from what he knows as a lawyer. 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:54.800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Then you 00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:56.460 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: should, Your Honor, lay down the predicate. 00:35:57.280 --> 00:36:17.640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You can rephrase it. You can reform counsel and simply state that the corporation is a separate, distinct personality from natural persons such as, because again, the witness would be incompetent with respect to knowledge as to whether or not attorney mans or the vice president is a stockholder of the corporation. 00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:29.440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'll just adopt that phrasing from the presiding officer. Do you confirm that Cale88 Foods Corporation has a separate and distinct personalities from natural persons? 00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:30.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: From natural 00:36:30.700 --> 00:36:36.320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: persons? From my limited knowledge of corporation law, yes, Your Honor. 00:36:36.380 --> 00:36:39.780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And those natural persons include attorney man, Scorpio, correct? 00:36:40.060 --> 00:36:43.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm not sure, Your Honor, if attorney man is a stockholder. 00:36:43.080 --> 00:36:43.440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: If 00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:56.860 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: a stockholder, Your Honor. Alright, now to be more precise. AMLC records show that remittances were made to Kale88 Foods Corporation and not to VP Sara and Attorney Mance, correct? 00:36:56.860 --> 00:36:58.680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, based on records, Your Honor. 00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:14.120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, my question to you is this. Does the AMLC have any record of how much of these transactions by Kale88 Foods Corporation redounded to the benefit of VP Sara and Attorney Mance? 00:37:16.330 --> 00:37:22.610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Redounded to the benefit, Your Honor? There is none. It's only based on what we have on the record, sir. 00:37:22.610 --> 00:37:23.070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, done. 00:37:23.490 --> 00:37:35.130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, let me direct your attention to this news article that came out yesterday from GMA News Online. Can you see what's flashed on the screen, sir? We have a hard copy. 00:37:36.940 --> 00:37:40.760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It says here, I'll just read the title and the first sentence for the sake of time. 00:37:42.600 --> 00:38:18.540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: China denies giving money to Philippine political group in wake of Trillanes' claims. The first sentence reads, The Chinese embassy in Manila has branded as a quote-unquote false narrative the allegations that China has funneled funds to a political faction in the Philippines, calling them malicious rhetoric and actions. Now, do you recall that yesterday you testified on several China-based entities that had transactions with Cale88? Do you recall that? 00:38:18.540 --> 00:38:18.980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your 00:38:18.980 --> 00:38:28.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. I only read what's indicated in the records, Your Honor. Although, if I recall, there were names pointed that it sounds in Chinese, Your Honor. 00:38:28.220 --> 00:38:42.180 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Ah, okay. So my question to you is this. Do the records of AMLA show that those entities that you mentioned are not legitimate business entities? May nakalagay ba sa records? 00:38:42.180 --> 00:38:43.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. There's nothing in the 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:44.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: records. 00:38:44.180 --> 00:39:07.550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, before the cross-examination continues, may we request that what is being flashed on the screen be taken down because the relevance of this document has not yet been shown and it's objectionable on so many levels, Your Honor. The witness is incompetent to testify on that. It's hearsay. The truth of the allegations therein has not yet been established. And it's completely irrelevant, Your Honor. 00:39:07.710 --> 00:39:13.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And I believe Attorney Mark is already done with that too. Correct me if I'm wrong, Attorney Mark. We can take 00:39:13.110 --> 00:39:13.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it down 00:39:13.390 --> 00:39:13.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: at this point, 00:39:13.890 --> 00:39:13.950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. 00:39:13.950 --> 00:39:15.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, you're already done with it. 00:39:15.110 --> 00:39:17.450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I already confronted the witness with it anyway. 00:39:17.810 --> 00:39:36.140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, more importantly, do the records of AMLC show that China-based entities that you mentioned yesterday represent China itself or the Chinese government? Meron ba ganun sa records niyo? 00:39:36.140 --> 00:39:40.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As far as I recall, yesterday, there is no mention about it, Your Honor. 00:39:40.060 --> 00:39:55.420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No mention. In other words, in line with your testimony now, and from what we read from the article a while ago, no records of AMLC show that China as a country funneled funds to Cale88, correct? 00:39:55.420 --> 00:39:59.680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As far as I recall, and based on the record, there is no showing, Your Honor. 00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:19.310 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you for that answer. Now, I mentioned that News article about China. You have a department in AMLC called the Investigation and Enforcement Department-Financial Crimes Investigation Group or IED-FCIG, correct? 00:40:19.310 --> 00:40:21.450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yeah, that is correct, Your Honor. 00:40:21.450 --> 00:40:33.950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, my only question relating to that news article, can the IED-FCIG take notice of articles like this? In relation to its investigation, if any? 00:40:36.450 --> 00:40:39.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That I am unable to confirm your honor. 00:40:41.810 --> 00:40:43.410 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: What do you mean? You cannot answer 00:40:43.410 --> 00:40:43.770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: based 00:40:43.770 --> 00:40:44.070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: on 00:40:44.070 --> 00:40:44.890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: confidentiality? 00:40:44.890 --> 00:40:44.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I mean, that article, 00:40:45.130 --> 00:40:59.260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: because I, well, number one, it's the first time I'm seeing the article. Of course, I'm not sure if it's that something that... Our investigation unit would indeed take cognizance, Your Honor. 00:40:59.260 --> 00:40:59.420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But 00:40:59.420 --> 00:41:06.160 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: can that particular department take cognizance of news articles in general in relation to the investigations that you make? 00:41:07.080 --> 00:41:15.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Take cognizance, Your Honor, in the sense that it's being seen. I mean, if it is published in the internet, it can be seen, Your Honor. 00:41:15.640 --> 00:41:19.340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: When they see it, do they consider it in their investigation? 00:41:19.920 --> 00:41:20.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It 00:41:20.360 --> 00:41:32.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: could be... As one of the things that they may look but I'm not sure if I don't know the article your honor so I cannot say if it is indeed something to look at 00:41:32.010 --> 00:41:33.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: in the first place. 00:41:33.130 --> 00:41:43.150 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're okay with that answer. One last point on this. Based on your records, may money laundering case ba that is pending against Cale88 or any of its officers? 00:41:43.150 --> 00:41:45.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to disclose any investigation not 00:41:45.690 --> 00:41:47.150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: covered in the subpoena your honor. 00:41:47.270 --> 00:41:54.410 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Based on the records, meron na bang na-convict? For any money laundering case, ang kahit sinong officer ng Cale88? 00:41:54.410 --> 00:41:57.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I have no personal knowledge who are the officers of Cale88. 00:41:57.530 --> 00:42:11.770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's okay. Let's move on to the CTRs and STRs. When banks and covered persons submit CTRs and STRs, do they submit or attach supporting documents like bank ledgers for example? 00:42:15.740 --> 00:42:31.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As far as I know, There are times that they do, but I apologize your honor, I'm not certain it would be subject to our AMLC registration reporting guidelines and our other reporting guidelines. 00:42:32.070 --> 00:42:37.310 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, that's okay. But do you know if they submit deposit slips, for example, as supporting documents? 00:42:37.310 --> 00:42:37.570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am 00:42:37.570 --> 00:42:39.990 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: unable to know 00:42:39.990 --> 00:42:40.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: or 00:42:40.350 --> 00:42:40.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: recall your 00:42:40.890 --> 00:42:41.370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: honor on that. 00:42:41.370 --> 00:42:42.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Unable. 00:42:42.010 --> 00:42:44.110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: How about transaction history records? 00:42:47.110 --> 00:42:48.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, your honor. 00:42:48.550 --> 00:42:56.320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No? How about internal credit and debit memos of the bank accounts as supporting documents to these CTRs and STRs? 00:42:58.100 --> 00:42:58.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:18.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: if I recall, and of course subject to, because there are a lot of guidelines issued in relation to the reporting, if I recall, there are reports, at least STRs, wherein AMLC may be able, can require 00:43:21.340 --> 00:43:28.540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: records to be filed together with STRs, Your Honor, but subject to what is provided in our guidelines, Your Honor. 00:43:28.540 --> 00:43:28.920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. 00:43:29.300 --> 00:43:29.920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Here's a 00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:36.640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: more pointed question. Does the AMLC witness the actual conduct of each transaction? 00:43:38.750 --> 00:43:41.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. We only base on the records, Your Honor. 00:43:41.430 --> 00:43:52.430 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Does the AMLC personnel know the personal circumstances of the parties involved in the transaction? 00:43:52.430 --> 00:43:52.870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: If 00:43:52.870 --> 00:43:59.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: only basing on the CTRs and STRs, no, your honor. Only the details as indicated there when the date of transaction, etc. 00:44:00.130 --> 00:44:06.010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, does the AMLC personnel gain personal knowledge on the party's business interests, for example? 00:44:07.910 --> 00:44:08.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Not unless they, 00:44:09.050 --> 00:44:14.870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: based on the records, no, on the CTRs, STRs alone, your honor, no. Unless further investigation 00:44:14.870 --> 00:44:16.150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: is conducted, your honor. 00:44:16.150 --> 00:44:28.320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, based on the CTRs and STRs alone, The AMLC has no personal knowledge of the underlying transactions of each items in the CTRs and STRs, correct? 00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:28.800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct. 00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:33.200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It is only what appears on our records. 00:44:33.200 --> 00:44:33.540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Hence, 00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:42.740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the AMLC cannot determine the legality or illegality of the transactions based solely on the CTRs and STRs, correct? 00:44:45.010 --> 00:44:57.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. Let me clarify. We're not... Based on the CTRs or STRs, if you look at it, we're not determining, there's no entry there which states whether it's illegal or not. 00:44:57.340 --> 00:44:59.720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Kaya hindi niyo po malalaman. 00:44:59.720 --> 00:45:25.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We're not determining, I mean, in the first place, we're not determining on the basis alone of reported CTRs or STRs whether the underlying transaction is immediately illegal or not. As part of our duties or others, as mentioned yesterday, we analyze this and then, of course, if needed, conduct investigation, file with the court, and only then we're able to establish. And even then, on our end, it's for the courts to determine if 00:45:25.120 --> 00:45:26.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: there's illegality or not. 00:45:26.120 --> 00:45:38.020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, for the courts to determine. Thank you for that answer. Now let's talk about suspicious transaction reports in particular. The AMLC only records STRs as reported by banks and other covered... 00:45:39.550 --> 00:45:46.450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Without making any independent verification as to the basis used by the banks, correct? 00:45:46.450 --> 00:45:47.810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry, the AMLC 00:45:47.810 --> 00:45:49.610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: does what, Your Honor? 00:45:51.270 --> 00:45:54.750 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: They only record or receives STRs. 00:45:54.750 --> 00:45:55.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah, receives. Yes, Your Honor. 00:45:55.910 --> 00:46:01.780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And without making any independent verification on how the banks classified. 00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:05.220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is not required under the law and the rules your honor. 00:46:05.220 --> 00:46:19.120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, para maintindihan po na nating lahat, malayang hinahayaan ng AMLC ang mga bangko at iba pang covered persons na mag-classify ng transactions as suspicious. Tama? 00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:49.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa pag-classify, tama po. Pero sila po ay subject, I think nabanggit ko po. To the guidelines. guidelines at kasama rin po yung supervision and audit po sa kanila. So kasama na rin po yung BSP nag-audit, other regulators po, SEC, Insurance Commission po, and then kami rin po nag-audit. So yung sinasabit po nila, maaaring po sabit po nila, pero yun po ay subject to audit, kami rin po subject to our checking din as well, Your Honor. Of 00:46:49.010 --> 00:46:58.390 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: course. Now, for the record, the AMLC operates under a low threshold. reporting of suspicious activity, correct? 00:46:58.510 --> 00:47:03.970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Vague, Your Honor. What does low threshold of report, what does that even mean, Your Honor? 00:47:04.090 --> 00:47:07.590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It's in the law, Your Honor, and the witness is intelligent enough to answer. 00:47:07.590 --> 00:47:11.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If he knows, if he knows, Atty. May, if you know, Atty. Rodel, 00:47:11.350 --> 00:47:11.710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry, 00:47:11.850 --> 00:47:12.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: can 00:47:12.010 --> 00:47:12.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: you 00:47:12.130 --> 00:47:12.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: repeat po? 00:47:12.610 --> 00:47:17.450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Low threshold po ba o high threshold ang ginagamit nyo in terms of reporting of suspicious activity? 00:47:19.750 --> 00:47:36.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The law did not mention any threshold, Your Honor. The law says, regardless of the amount, So it could be a suspicious transaction could be higher than the threshold or it could be lower than the threshold as long as the presence of suspicious circumstances are there, 00:47:37.150 --> 00:47:37.650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 00:47:37.650 --> 00:47:49.070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, we're okay with that answer. It means that banks and other covered transactions are encouraged to report transactions as suspicious even if not yet conclusive. Tama? 00:47:49.070 --> 00:47:49.450 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 00:47:49.450 --> 00:47:51.650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, the term encouraged is 00:47:53.190 --> 00:48:05.150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Wrong, Your Honor. So the ground for objection is misleading, Your Honor. Covert institutions are required to report suspicious transactions. They are not just encouraged to report suspicious transactions. 00:48:05.550 --> 00:48:10.730 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: He can just admit or deny, Your Honor. Anyway, that's the word that I used. If the witness can answer. 00:48:11.110 --> 00:48:17.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness is intelligent enough and you have made him aware already of the word encouraged so let him answer accordingly. 00:48:17.630 --> 00:48:20.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The law is... I guess you're on policy, 00:48:20.110 --> 00:48:25.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. So, the law use the word required, Your Honor. So, they're required to report suspicious 00:48:25.560 --> 00:48:27.540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: transactions, Your Honor. 00:48:27.540 --> 00:48:32.060 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, that's even. But even if not yet conclusive, that's my only point. Ah, sorry. 00:48:33.620 --> 00:48:39.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, the threshold is suspicious or suspicion or suspicious circumstances, Your Honor. 00:48:40.960 --> 00:49:10.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So that I cannot say whether it's conclusive or not but on the end of the covered person it's for them to determine based on the profile of their client based on the nature of the transaction whether this transaction is or activity is suspicious or not whether if on their end it is conclusive or not it's for them the threshold at least insofar as the law requires is suspicion or suspicious but if they are It could be that on their end, they have conclusively determined, but we have no personal knowledge on that, Your Honor. 00:49:11.170 --> 00:49:28.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With your indulgence, Atty. Mark, what do the guidelines or the law say when it made mention of the word require? When in doubt, should banks report? Or when in doubt, banks will not? 00:49:31.420 --> 00:49:31.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We're 00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:33.720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: pertaining to suspicious transactions only. 00:49:34.120 --> 00:50:06.870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, in our guidelines, as far as I recall, Your Honor, and subject to what the actual guidelines provide, we have a definition there of what suspicion is. And this is also based on the law, which enumerates the suspicious circumstances. Essentially, suspicion po is one based on the knowledge of the covered person or reporting entity based on the profile of the client and taking account all other circumstances. to determine whether or not there is a suspicious circumstance. 00:50:07.510 --> 00:50:10.550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, a lot of basis is placed on the bank's KYC? 00:50:11.370 --> 00:50:12.290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct. 00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:26.880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: KYC, your owner, transaction of the account owner as well, your owner. So, yung KYC po kasi pang simula lang po yun eh. So, ma-determine yung profile. So, 00:50:26.940 --> 00:50:29.680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: KYC for the information of the public, your client, 00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:30.700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and 00:50:30.700 --> 00:50:34.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: or if the client is a PEP. or a politically exposed person. 00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:35.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasama rin po 00:50:35.000 --> 00:50:36.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yan sa kinoconsider po nila. So 00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:45.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the determination of whether or not a transaction is suspicious regardless of amount is subjective based on the appreciation of the covered person. 00:50:47.720 --> 00:51:16.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Subjective, Your Honor, yes, pero based po dun sa mga parameters po under the law. So kasama po dun yung, yun nga po, i-evaluate yung profile ng client, ano ba yung mga nature ng transactions po niya na papasok labas, gaano karami, gaano kadalas, and then yung pong, of course, may mga... In-issue po ang AMLC as well as other regulators po ng mga potential red flags based din po sa mga studies at saka mga guidelines po namin. So, they have to consider all of this together, Your Honor. 00:51:16.240 --> 00:51:31.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Without belaboring the point, as you said, subject to the audit of AMLC, of SEC, of IC, of BSP, there is a wide discretion on the part of a covered institution whether or not to declare a transaction suspicious or not. 00:51:33.480 --> 00:53:15.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I would answer that yes your honor because and let me clarify po so as not to mislead this honorable court po. Different covered persons have different profile of their clients because of the nature of the services that they render your honor. So yung bangko po Halimbawa po malaking bank o universal bank or commercial bank, more likely po ang mga clients po niya medyo affluent, yung po medyo mayaman or malaking business po. So yung profile po ng clients niya, siyempre ibabase po niya dun sa, yung pag-report po niya kung suspicious or hindi, base po dun sa client niya. Kung meron po tayong isang e-wallet, halimbawa po e-wallet or maliit na pawn shop, Siyempre po, yung profile po ng mga customer niya, iba po dun sa isa. So, they have to tailor po yung pag-profile, pag-analyze po. At lahat po yung documented po kasi required po yun sa tinatawag natin na money laundering and terrorism financing prevention program. Ang dami po mga reports na sinasubmit sa, or required po under the law, regulations po namin, pati ng BSP, SEC, IC po. So, totoo po na subjective, pero... Hindi po siya subjective na parang one tone or parang random na o sige parang okay ito ganyan i-file natin. Hindi po. Kasi po ang dami pong depende po sa profile, customer, sa service, sa risk po ng client po, nung service, kasama din po yun. So, ayun po your honor. So, and of course subject to the audit pa rin po yun ng mga institutions po, financial regulators po. 00:53:15.940 --> 00:53:16.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you for that clarification. 00:53:17.220 --> 00:53:18.560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your witness, Attorney Martin. 00:53:18.560 --> 00:53:30.220 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just a few more points on this. At any rate, the filing of STRs is a compliance measure and not a legal conclusion of illegal activity, correct? 00:53:30.220 --> 00:53:33.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It's a requirement under the law, Your Honor. 00:53:33.100 --> 00:53:36.020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Not a conclusion of illegal activity, correct? 00:53:36.220 --> 00:53:37.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Of legal... 00:53:37.340 --> 00:53:38.840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Illegal activity. 00:53:38.840 --> 00:53:47.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Illegal activity. Yes, sir. We cannot determine illegality on the premise of just a report, Your Honor. 00:53:47.550 --> 00:53:55.400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, an STR is therefore not a legal conclusion that there is money laundering, correct? 00:53:55.400 --> 00:53:57.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: A legal conclusion that there 00:53:57.000 --> 00:54:02.960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: is money laundering? Yes, Your Honor. It's actually even for the courts to decide whether there 00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:03.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: is 00:54:03.140 --> 00:54:03.660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: money 00:54:03.660 --> 00:54:04.580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: laundering. 00:54:04.580 --> 00:54:11.540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And similarly, it is not a legal conclusion that the transaction is illegal, correct? 00:54:11.540 --> 00:54:17.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Again, Your Honor, it's also for the courts if eventually a case is filed, Your Honor. 00:54:17.530 --> 00:54:28.750 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yesterday, you were confronted with several STRs and you even read several explanations from banks why they categorize those transactions as suspicious. Nalala niyo po? 00:54:28.750 --> 00:54:29.510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:54:29.510 --> 00:54:34.490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, may three slides. Nakikita niyo po ba yung slides kahapon nung binabasa niyo yung STR? 00:54:34.490 --> 00:54:35.230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Doon po ba? 00:54:35.230 --> 00:54:37.770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Oo. Hindi niyo nakikita yung slides kahapon? 00:54:37.770 --> 00:54:37.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Near 00:54:37.890 --> 00:54:38.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: -sighted po 00:54:38.530 --> 00:54:38.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: eh. 00:54:38.790 --> 00:54:44.150 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: By the way, for the record, did you personally consent to the flashing of those slides yesterday? 00:54:55.510 --> 00:54:56.170 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'll 00:54:56.170 --> 00:55:06.650 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: confront you with the specific slides yesterday. Yesterday kasi may pinalabas na slide, may nakalagay DPWH flood control issue. Nakita niyo po yan? 00:55:06.650 --> 00:55:07.810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po nakita 00:55:07.810 --> 00:55:07.870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yan. 00:55:08.050 --> 00:55:10.790 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Nakita niyo yung Shabu importation? 00:55:10.790 --> 00:55:14.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa slide, yung tanong niyo po is yung sa slide po. Hindi ko po nakita, you're on. 00:55:14.750 --> 00:55:16.390 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Nabasa niyo lang doon sa records. 00:55:16.470 --> 00:55:18.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung pinapoint lang po, you're on. 00:55:18.930 --> 00:55:24.210 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Nakita niyo ba doon yung malversation of public funds and property? Do you recall that or hindi na? 00:55:24.270 --> 00:55:25.830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Parang, parang po 00:55:25.830 --> 00:55:26.830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: may naririnig po. 00:55:27.370 --> 00:55:27.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Meron. 00:55:27.690 --> 00:55:35.530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, at any rate, hango ang mga ito sa STRs na ipinasa ng mga bangko, correct? 00:55:35.530 --> 00:55:36.170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 00:55:36.170 --> 00:55:56.270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. And then inisa-isa doon kahapon yung mga reference numbers, yung mga dates. Now, dun sa tatlong binanggit ko na subject matters, DPWH flood control issue, Shabu importation, tsaka yung malversation of public funds and property, nagbase ang mga banks sa news articles na available to the public. Tama? 00:55:56.270 --> 00:55:56.410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 00:55:56.410 --> 00:55:58.290 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, this witness will be incompetent and testify 00:55:58.310 --> 00:55:58.990 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: based on what 00:55:58.990 --> 00:56:02.210 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: he read yesterday. He read that yesterday. Pero 00:56:02.210 --> 00:56:08.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: hindi ko na po maalala sa dami po nung... Mga naging tanong kung pwede po makita ko ulit. So I can confirm po, Your Honor. 00:56:09.780 --> 00:56:33.140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, our predicament is what was presented yesterday was the court's copy and we don't have our individual copies because we marked No, no, no, Your Honor. We marked actually the prosecution's exhibit as well. So the court's copy has the signature of the prosecution and defense. 00:56:33.720 --> 00:56:50.700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Allow me to bridge the gap. Attorney Ronel, you remember reading from the actual reports yesterday, what was flashed on the screen that you could not see? You remember reading the reason why it was considered suspicious, why it was reported? 00:56:51.160 --> 00:56:52.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Marami po pinabasa, Your Honor. 00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:53.640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Tatlo, apat 00:56:53.640 --> 00:56:55.200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: lang po yung kahapon ko, naalala ko. 00:56:55.360 --> 00:57:01.020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May meron po yung mahaba po, Your Honor. So I can't recall that I was asked to read, Your Honor. 00:57:01.140 --> 00:57:10.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: About three or four times, right? And that reference to newspaper articles were mentioned in all of those references. Would you recall that? 00:57:11.010 --> 00:57:15.210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to recall, Your Honor, if I may be confronted with the documents. 00:57:16.930 --> 00:57:19.010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, we can just move on to a new point. 00:57:19.090 --> 00:57:28.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Anyway, he said... Try to get the TSN counsel, but in the meantime, kindly move on and we can confront the witness with what he read yesterday. 00:57:28.010 --> 00:57:29.050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Based 00:57:29.050 --> 00:57:43.000 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: lang dun sa vague memory niyo, no? Based on the STRs alone, masisiguro ba ng AMLC na involved yung transactions ni VP Sara sa DPWH flood control issue? 00:57:44.910 --> 00:57:52.670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based on STR, masisiguro. We have to conduct pa po analysis, investigation if 00:57:52.670 --> 00:57:53.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: warranted po. 00:57:53.750 --> 00:57:56.900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So the short answer is no. Based on the STRs alone. 00:57:56.900 --> 00:57:58.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 00:57:58.140 --> 00:58:05.960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Based on the STRs alone, masisiguro ba ng AMLC na involved yung transactions ni VP Sara sa Shabu importation? 00:58:05.960 --> 00:58:06.300 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 00:58:06.300 --> 00:58:26.850 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, at this point, to borrow the words of the defense, I've already given them so much leeway in asking these questions. The witness has already testified. that whether or not an illegal activity has been committed is not for them to rule on or to decide. It's for the courts. So, this line of questioning, Your Honor, would be relevant. 00:58:27.010 --> 00:58:33.290 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, I'm confronting the witness with specific STRs that he recalled from yesterday. I 00:58:33.290 --> 00:58:51.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: believe it's only fair, counsel, to confront the witness with what he read yesterday. If indeed... If indeed they have personal knowledge or can say that these are valid and true. So, witness has been confronted with respect to the flood control. Where are you now at? 00:58:51.750 --> 00:58:53.890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Shabu Importation, Your Honor. I 00:58:53.890 --> 00:58:56.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: guess it's the same answer. Kindly answer, Attorney Ronel. 00:58:56.770 --> 00:59:05.220 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Based on the STRs alone, ba masisiguro niyo ba na-involve yung transactions ni VP Sara sa Shabu Importation? 00:59:05.220 --> 00:59:06.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Alone, Your Honor. 00:59:06.060 --> 00:59:06.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We 00:59:06.180 --> 00:59:06.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: have to 00:59:06.380 --> 00:59:09.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: conduct further investigation if needed or warranted, Your Honor. 00:59:09.500 --> 00:59:19.720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Huli na po. Base po dun sa STRs, masisiguro niyo po ba ng AMLC na involved yung transactions ni VP Sara sa malversation of public funds or property? 00:59:19.720 --> 00:59:23.680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: On that alone, no, Your Honor. We have to verify and conduct investigation if 00:59:23.680 --> 00:59:23.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: necessary. 00:59:24.180 --> 00:59:33.200 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're okay with that. Thank you, Mr. Attorney Beneventura. Now, the CTRs and STRs for corporations 00:59:36.050 --> 00:59:43.230 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Do you recall submitting those as well? For corporations, yung nakalista kanina. 00:59:44.410 --> 00:59:45.050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'm 00:59:45.050 --> 00:59:55.260 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just laying the basis. Now, they also do not prove that VP Sara, through any of these corporations, committed money laundering, correct? 00:59:55.260 --> 00:59:55.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: On 00:59:55.840 --> 01:00:01.600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the basis of the CTRs, STRs alone, Your Honor. Not at that point, Your Honor. 01:00:01.600 --> 01:00:01.780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. 01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:15.180 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And may mga transactions na attributed to these corporations. Hindi naman lahat ng income ng corporations ay income din ni VP Sara at attorney months, correct? 01:00:15.180 --> 01:00:15.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I have no 01:00:15.860 --> 01:00:20.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: personal knowledge on the income of the persons or entities you've mentioned, Your Honor. 01:00:20.920 --> 01:00:36.970 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. And unless there is a showing that these corporations are wholly owned by VP Sara and attorney months, Their actual interests therein must be specifically defined before the CTRs and STRs can be attributed to them. 01:00:46.770 --> 01:00:57.650 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yung mga interest nila doon sa corporation na yun must be specifically defined. Kailangan malaman natin. Before yung CTRs or STRs can be attributed to the couple. Tama po? 01:00:57.650 --> 01:00:58.110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your 01:00:58.110 --> 01:01:13.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor, yung CTRs and STRs po kasi namin hindi naman po namin nire-require na at least at that point to identify who owns or what owns po eh. So we are unable to confirm that or to answer that it's not. Based on the records you're on. 01:01:13.900 --> 01:01:17.060 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any rate, iba yung pang corporation. Iba yung para sa mag-asawa. 01:01:17.060 --> 01:01:18.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 01:01:18.140 --> 01:01:19.200 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In terms of the CPRs. 01:01:19.200 --> 01:01:20.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In the way, yes, sir. 01:01:21.320 --> 01:01:22.640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Reported separately you're on. 01:01:22.700 --> 01:01:36.240 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, to mention sa news article kanina si former Senator Terlianes, let me direct your attention to exhibits D-2-2 and D-2-1. May I be shown with that? I'll just read the title. 01:01:38.690 --> 01:01:42.290 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This is an issue once from the AMLC. I understand that 01:01:46.630 --> 01:02:07.530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: BSP-AMLC, deny releasing alleged Duterte bank account documents. And then there's a highlighted portion there says, Banko Sentral ng Pilipinas, BSP, and the AMLC, Anti-Money Laundering Council, are not the source of the documents and information being cited by a vice presidential candidate. 01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:17.010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This was sourced from the website of AMLC. 01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:21.960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Hindi niyo ba nakikita yung naka-highlight po? 01:02:23.140 --> 01:02:26.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi, yung masyado po maliit. Ano po yung naka-highlight? 01:02:26.980 --> 01:02:29.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly point it out as listening counsel is directed. 01:02:30.420 --> 01:02:43.920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: My question is this, based on the records of the AMLC, maybe we're not yet around, but based on the records, do you know If former Senator Trillanes requested files from AMLC in the past? 01:02:45.380 --> 01:02:51.500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable, since this matter is not included in this opinion, Your Honor, I was not able to... 01:02:51.500 --> 01:02:52.480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Review? 01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:53.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:53.400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 01:02:53.400 --> 01:03:08.600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay lang po. But let me ask you this general, more general question. Is it even legal for a third party like former Senator Trillanes to request access... to files from the AMLC database such as CTRs and STRs. 01:03:08.620 --> 01:03:14.580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, Your Honor, because there has been no prior testimony that Senator Trillanes in fact requested documents from AMLC. Okay. 01:03:14.960 --> 01:03:15.840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, I said 01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:16.440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: third party 01:03:16.440 --> 01:03:18.700 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: like former Senator Trillanes. Just 01:03:18.700 --> 01:03:26.770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: the same, Your Honor. There has been no testimony. On record yet that a third party has in fact requested documents. 01:03:26.770 --> 01:03:27.130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Then 01:03:27.130 --> 01:03:37.010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'll remove the name. I'll paraphrase the question. Is it even legal for a third party to request access to files from the AMLC database such as CTRs or STRs? Legal po ba yun? 01:03:37.270 --> 01:03:44.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, they can request but we'll have to evaluate and if more likely deny based on our rules and guidelines. 01:03:45.110 --> 01:03:58.940 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: More likely deny. Okay. Paano po kung isang forensic expert, for example, gusto mag-aral ng financial history po? Ni VP Sara at Atty. Mans. Mari po bang lumapit sa AMLC at humingi ng access sa mga CTRs at STRs? 01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:01.820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I would say no, Your Honor. 01:04:01.820 --> 01:04:02.860 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No. Okay. 01:04:04.380 --> 01:04:26.450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Atty. Bonaventura, malaki po yung mga aggregate amounts contained in your tabular summaries. Pero para lang po maliwanag, yung tabular summaries and reports po ba na yun ay conclusive proof of VP Saras and Atty. Mans Cash on hand or cash in bank? 01:04:27.490 --> 01:04:34.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. What the records would only show are the transactions, not the cash in hand or cash on 01:04:34.750 --> 01:04:34.830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: hand. 01:04:34.830 --> 01:04:42.250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Yung tabular summaries and reports po ba nayon ay conclusive proof of unexplained wealth on the part of VP Sara? 01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:51.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, all I can say is the tabulation is based on the reported transactions, Your Honor. 01:04:51.060 --> 01:04:52.040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, you cannot... 01:04:56.480 --> 01:05:01.420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Are they conclusive proof of ill-gotten wealth on the part of VP Sara? 01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:03.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: For the same answer, 01:05:03.380 --> 01:05:06.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I can only rely on what's provided in the record, Your Honor. 01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:14.500 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just as they are not conclusive proof of the true wealth of VP Sara in attorney months as declared in their SALNs, correct? 01:05:15.210 --> 01:05:21.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I have no knowledge on their SALN, Your Honor, but again, this is only based on the reported transactions, Your Honor. 01:05:21.570 --> 01:05:35.850 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, so in other words, Atty. Buenaventura, as AMLC Director, you simply do not have personal knowledge that will clearly establish that VP Sara amassed hundreds of millions or billions, tama? 01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:49.030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I have no personal knowledge, Your Honor, but what I'm testifying only is What are indicated in the records regarding transactions reported to us, Your Honor? 01:05:49.150 --> 01:05:51.810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you for that answer. That would be all, Your Honor. 01:05:56.250 --> 01:05:57.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, any redirect? 01:05:58.210 --> 01:06:11.030 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. We'll be conducting a few redirects, Your Honor. But may I just, Your Honor, be given time to organize the questions? Given the number of questions that were propounded throughout the cross-examination. 01:06:11.580 --> 01:06:33.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We'll give you a few minutes, Attorney May. Probably one or two senator-judges to intervene with the permission of Attorney Mark as well because you will be having a Yuri Cross still. They do depend. So the chair will allow senator-judges to make their interjections in the meantime. The first one on my list based on yesterday's... 01:06:35.980 --> 01:06:42.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: On Annika's list yesterday is the Honorable Ontiveros. Senator Judge Ontiveros is recognized. 01:06:43.550 --> 01:06:46.510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed ma'am when you're ready. You have two minutes. 01:06:53.910 --> 01:06:57.970 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang umaga po Atty. Buenaventura. 01:06:58.130 --> 01:07:00.730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Magandang umaga po Honorable Senator Judge. 01:07:02.790 --> 01:07:25.130 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So nabanggit po na may mga covered at saka suspicious transaction reports sa 319 million pesos na pumasok sa Cale88 mula sa China. Kasama po sa red flag ay dahil walang lehitimong transaksyon sa likod ng perang pinadala. 01:07:27.030 --> 01:07:33.620 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Inimbestigahan na po ba ng AMLOC ang mga Chinese companies na katransaksyon ng Cale88? 01:07:35.930 --> 01:07:57.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I'm unable to answer po with that. The only documents related to what we were subpoenaed po, yung pong mga nasubmit po namin na summary report po, financial investigation report, financial investigation report, Antony Carpio, confidential information sharing, Your Honor. 01:08:01.550 --> 01:08:10.650 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So, hindi po ito mga bunga pa ng investigasyon ng AMLAC dun sa mga Chinong katransaksyon na kumpanya ng Cale88? 01:08:11.110 --> 01:08:13.590 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer, Your Honor. 01:08:13.790 --> 01:08:47.510 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright po. Kaya ako po ito tinanong dahil tinignan ko ng opisina ko yung mga ito, yung mga binanggit na mga kumpanya kahapon at lumalabas na ilan? Sa nagpadala ng pera sa Cale88 ay mga Chinese state-owned enterprises. Isa na po doon yung pinakitang China National Township Enterprises. Base po sa research ng opisina ko, dating quote directly under the Ministry of Agriculture. 01:08:49.120 --> 01:09:03.180 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At naging isang, quote, large state-owned agricultural enterprise under the supervision of the State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the State Council, close quote. 01:09:04.810 --> 01:11:59.400 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At sa public profiles po ng China National Township Enterprises na yon, binibida nung kumpanya na sila daw ay, quote, committed to serving the implementation of the country's Belt and Road Initiative and foreign policy. Yun namang isa pa po na pinakita kahapon, Beijing Zhen Weifang Food Company. Ayon sa open source research, pagmamayari po yan, Beijing Zhen Weifang Food Company pagmamayari siya ng Xinjiang Fruit Industry Group na nabanggit mismo sa company materials. I'll just finish, wrap up with this first question, Mr. Presiding Officer. Nabanggit mismo sa company materials ng Xinjiang Fruit Industry Group. ngayong 2026. Kumpirmado din po itong Xinjiang Fruit ay series A investor sa Beijing Zhenwei Fang. Mayroon ding strategic cooperation agreement itong dalawang kumpanya, yung Beijing at saka yung Xinjiang mula pa 2019. Bakit po ito mahalaga ah, Atty. Buenaventura? Dahil itong Xinjiang Fruit Industry Group ay hindi ordinaryong kumpanya. It's a Chinese state-owned enterprise. It advances the interests of the Chinese Communist Party. Sa mismong corporate governance structure ng Xinjiang Fruit, may institutional Chinese Communist Party organization na naka-embed. It has its own Chinese Communist Party Committee, Party Committee Organization Department, at 11 subordinate subcommittees o party branches. Lumalabas rin po na yung chairman ng Beijing Zhenwei Fang ay miyembro ng District Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference o CPPCC. Ayon sa isang US Economic and Security Report, delegates to the CPPCC serve as proxies for Chinese Communist Party interests and they frequently act as interlocutors with foreign government officials, businesses, and academic institutions. Sa Canada naman, sinabi na the premier overt United Front organization is the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. At sa isang report naman sa Australia, parte ng Key united front groups and events linked to foreign interference ang CPPCC at nilarawan nito bilang peak united front forum. So ang tanong ko po, Atty. Buenaventura, yung mga ganitong linkages ba ay tinitignan ng AMLANC? 01:12:00.640 --> 01:12:02.800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, apologies po. 01:12:04.420 --> 01:12:15.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: At this point po yung na-cover po nung subpoena is only on the records. Apology po hindi po kung makatulong sa talong po ninyo but I'm able to answer that po at this point, Your Honor. 01:12:15.980 --> 01:12:25.860 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: No apologies necessary. But as head of the AMLAC Secretariat, would you say na cause for concern yung ganyang mga transaksyon under these circumstances? 01:12:26.880 --> 01:12:39.850 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I note po the... I have to... Review po yung binanggit niyo po. Hindi ko po napuha lahat po, Your Honor. But we'll take note naman po yung nabanggit po ninyo. 01:12:41.440 --> 01:12:43.040 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat, Atty. Buedavan Tuda. 01:12:43.040 --> 01:12:43.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It's alright po. 01:12:43.920 --> 01:12:45.040 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer. 01:12:45.040 --> 01:12:45.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, 01:12:45.420 --> 01:12:53.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honorable Tiveras. Senator Judge Bam Aquino, thereafter, Atty. Mayor Ropp, after Senator Judge Bam. 01:12:55.790 --> 01:12:57.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Senator Judge Bam. 01:12:57.910 --> 01:13:00.350 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, Your Honor. May I be given more time, Your Honor? 01:13:01.740 --> 01:13:03.540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's see after Senator Judge Ban. 01:13:03.840 --> 01:13:07.840 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Actually, my first question is for Attorney May. Just a quick 01:13:07.840 --> 01:13:08.360 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: question. 01:13:08.360 --> 01:13:09.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then in that case... 01:13:09.340 --> 01:13:09.940 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Sorry. 01:13:11.220 --> 01:13:31.820 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, so let me... First of all, thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Attorney May, nais ko lang malaman rin kung ano talaga yung nais nating maipakita dito sa witness na ito. So, after this witness, ang susunod yung mga bangko. Is that correct? And possibly today, right? 01:13:32.080 --> 01:13:32.640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 01:13:32.740 --> 01:13:48.060 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And yung tanong na magkano ba talaga yung nasa bank account ni Vice President Sara at ni Atty. Carpio, yan ba ay masasagot ng next witness natin? Yan ang kanilang testimonya. 01:13:48.240 --> 01:13:52.360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I am unaware, Your Honor, as to the substance of the testimony of the subsequent witness. 01:13:52.360 --> 01:13:53.460 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Pero yan ang tatanungin ninyo. 01:13:53.460 --> 01:14:02.230 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. And we will try to bridge and to tatahiin po yung mga testimonies ng mga witnesses. 01:14:02.230 --> 01:14:27.640 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, exactly. So, kumbaga, meron tayong pieces of the puzzle ngayon. May magsasabi kung ano yung laman ng account. Itong si witness, si Atty. Buenaventura, tama ba, Atty. Buenaventura, what you can testify is that billion piso ang dumaan sa mga account nila. Yun ang, can you say that with certainty na bilyong piso ang dumaan sa mga account na sinopina sa araw na ito? 01:14:27.740 --> 01:14:47.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: based on our tabulation your honor there are billions at least as indicated po there are transactions that are billions po yung 4.4 po tsaka yung millions po dun sa other entities na indicated po so at least in so far transaction po yes 01:14:47.790 --> 01:14:50.730 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: okay labas-pasok yan diba labas-pasok 01:14:50.730 --> 01:14:52.290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As reported po, Your Honor. 01:14:52.530 --> 01:15:01.650 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Sinagot mo kanina, sabi mo, hindi mo masasabi kung magkano yung nasa laman ng account at anytime pero alam mo na may perang labas-pasok at yung total niyan, billion. Tama ba? 01:15:02.250 --> 01:15:03.810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, nagka-transaction po. 01:15:03.810 --> 01:15:04.250 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: You're 01:15:04.250 --> 01:15:05.210 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: certain about that? 01:15:05.210 --> 01:15:05.410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 01:15:05.410 --> 01:15:05.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 01:15:05.550 --> 01:15:05.730 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: That is 01:15:05.730 --> 01:15:06.190 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: your report? 01:15:06.390 --> 01:15:07.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based on our report, Your Honor. 01:15:07.990 --> 01:15:21.070 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Thank you. Sige, so itong labas-pasok yung billion, magkano yung laman, tapos eventually, I think BIR rin yung dadating dito, ano yung dineklara? Ano yung nasasalihan? Yan yung mga binubuo natin dito sa article na ito. 01:15:21.110 --> 01:15:40.590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Long and short of it, Your Honor, among others, Your Honor, ipapakita namin na merong disproportion sa mga disclosures and with the figures appearing from the AMLC records, from the banks, also, Your Honor, ipapakita rin po namin na sa 01:15:43.120 --> 01:15:51.960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: AMLC records, Your Honor, it's not even the entirety. of the supposed transactions. 01:15:53.810 --> 01:15:54.210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Question. 01:15:55.830 --> 01:16:01.490 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yung AMLC report refers to covered persons. Pag sinasabi mong covered person, yan yung mga bangko. Tama ba? 01:16:01.490 --> 01:16:02.430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. 01:16:02.430 --> 01:16:08.590 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yung mga bangko kasama sa report na yan, yan rin ba yung mga pinatawag natin sa araw na ito ng mga bangko? 01:16:09.130 --> 01:16:09.670 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes po. 01:16:09.870 --> 01:16:13.390 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yes. So, konektado lahat ng mga testimonyang ito. Tama 01:16:13.390 --> 01:16:14.030 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: ba, Atty. May? 01:16:14.130 --> 01:16:14.570 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes po. 01:16:14.570 --> 01:16:17.930 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Sige. Question for Atty. Ronald. Thank you, Atty. May. Salamat. 01:16:18.070 --> 01:16:18.630 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Ronnie. 01:16:19.100 --> 01:16:30.160 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So yung mga banko magbibigay ng STR sa inyo and then kayo, based on those reports, na to be fair, sometimes galing nga sa dyaryo, itutuloy nyo yung investigation dyan. Tama ba? 01:16:30.840 --> 01:16:46.720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Subject to prioritization po because we receive po millions po of STRs din. So, and limited din po yung capacity namin and yung resources po. So, we have to prioritize po yung mga pag-investiga po. And 01:16:46.720 --> 01:16:49.580 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: eventually, pwede kayo magrekomenda ng kaso? 01:16:50.080 --> 01:16:50.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 01:16:51.080 --> 01:16:52.700 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Kanino kayo magrekomenda ng kaso? 01:16:52.720 --> 01:16:56.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, depende po doon sa kaso kung ang 01:16:58.320 --> 01:17:32.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung part pa po ng investigation at kailangan po namin ng additional information po, kadalasan po nagpa-file po kami ng bank inquiry, petition po sa court po, court of appeals, and then para ma-insure po na ma-preserve din yung pera, nagpa-file din po kami ng freeze order. Pero pag nabuo na po namin yung kaso po, case build up na po, nabuo na. Depende po kung ano yung level ng evidence namin kung kaya na po yung reasonable doubt, may file po money laundering criminal case complaint po. 01:17:32.490 --> 01:17:35.110 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: With DOJ? 01:17:35.110 --> 01:17:41.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: DOJ po or ombudsman kung pasok po sa jurisdiction po ng Sandiganbayan. 01:17:41.050 --> 01:17:41.230 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, 01:17:41.250 --> 01:17:47.030 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: so just for my understanding, for this year, have you filed any cases against anybody this year? 01:17:47.530 --> 01:17:48.390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 01:17:48.390 --> 01:17:48.910 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: You have? 01:17:48.910 --> 01:17:49.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 01:17:49.450 --> 01:17:53.770 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So, tuloy-tuloy. So, even without the impeachment case, tuloy-tuloy ang trabaho ng MLC? 01:17:53.930 --> 01:17:54.510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 01:17:54.810 --> 01:17:59.410 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. Could you give us a number? Mga ilan ng kasong na-file-an ninyo sa Ombudsman or sa DOJ? 01:17:59.950 --> 01:18:01.170 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Maybe last year or 01:18:01.170 --> 01:18:01.570 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: this year? 01:18:02.030 --> 01:18:10.650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May binilalabas po kaming mga annual report po, Your Honor. I think na-furnish po yung Senate but I can give you na lang po after if you need po. 01:18:10.670 --> 01:18:12.270 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: More than 10? More than 20? 01:18:12.530 --> 01:18:14.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Baka more or less po. More than. 01:18:14.690 --> 01:18:15.610 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. Sige. 01:18:15.650 --> 01:18:27.380 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Final question. Nabanggit kanina ni Atty. Vin Luan yung Tapang at Malasakit Alliance. Kasama ba yun sa mga records natin na hiningi? Was that part of the records? 01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:31.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po. Wala po yun yun. 01:18:32.790 --> 01:18:35.170 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But I never mentioned Tapang at Malasakit Alliance. 01:18:35.170 --> 01:18:35.530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I don't think he 01:18:35.530 --> 01:18:40.630 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: mentioned that too. Well, somebody mentioned earlier na may perang pumasok. Wala ba? 01:18:40.790 --> 01:18:41.250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Wala po. 01:18:41.930 --> 01:18:42.550 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: I'm sorry 01:18:42.550 --> 01:18:43.410 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Atty. Vin Luan. 01:18:44.410 --> 01:18:57.180 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: ED? Tapang at Malasakit Alliance, pinag-uusapan din. No, that was in your article in GMA News. It was referring to Tapang at Malasakit Alliance. Yung China denies giving money. That was Tapang at Malasakit Alliance. 01:18:58.960 --> 01:19:16.880 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: That was from your slide. So the slide that was shown earlier, if I may finish, Presiding Officer, nakalagay China denies providing money and I think that is the donation to the Tapang at Malasakit. Tapang at Malasakit Alliance, 01:19:17.140 --> 01:19:27.120 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: if I'm not mistaken. Or anyway, nasa dyaryo na naman to. Kasama ba yung Tapang at Malasakit Alliance sa mga records na binigay niyo sa prosecution or sa korte? 01:19:27.360 --> 01:19:31.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. Those are not included in the subpoena, Your Honor. 01:19:31.100 --> 01:19:31.600 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: May I 01:19:31.600 --> 01:19:38.480 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: ask the prosecution, is there any move to have these records also subpoenaed? 01:19:39.320 --> 01:19:57.790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If I may, Senator Judge Van, Tapang at Malasakit is not A juridical entity, I believe, that may have an account or a policy covered by the MLC. Attorney Mark, you confirm it appeared in the article? 01:19:58.090 --> 01:20:04.590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just to clarify also, sorry, with all due respect, hindi rin po kasama dun sa Flinash namin article. Wala rin po. 01:20:04.590 --> 01:20:05.110 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, 01:20:05.210 --> 01:20:10.850 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: maybe yung China denies providing money in another article, it referred to the tapang at malasakit. I have no 01:20:10.850 --> 01:20:23.460 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: personal knowledge. Thank you. So, ito na pag-uusapan na rin ito, Atty. May, na bring up na rin yung possible donations from China. Will there be any move to get the records of Tapang at Malasakit Alliance? 01:20:23.860 --> 01:20:25.120 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We are considering it, Your Honor. 01:20:25.380 --> 01:20:26.080 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Thank you, Mr. Presiding 01:20:26.080 --> 01:20:26.520 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Officer. 01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:52.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Maraming salamat. Thank you, Sen. Judge Bah Makino. Next would be, we won't count that against the time of Atty. May because she was asked the questions. Sen. Judge Rafi Tulfo, misrecognized. I see your hand, Senator Judge Pangilinan, but Senator Judge Raffi is recognized. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes. 01:21:01.940 --> 01:21:25.110 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mr. Witness, throughout the direct examination kahapon sa iyo, ang daming covert and suspicious transactions nabanggit. So, as Executive Director of AMLOC, would you know if your agency went to the Court of Appeals or CA ex parte? para humingi ng freeze order to investigate these possible acts of money laundering? 01:21:25.650 --> 01:21:30.280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I'm unable to disclose po. If any, Your Honor. 01:21:30.280 --> 01:21:31.000 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: You did 01:21:31.000 --> 01:21:31.160 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: not. 01:21:31.340 --> 01:21:31.780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay. 01:21:32.650 --> 01:21:49.090 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Sa mga na-flag nyo ng mga suspicious transactions, ano mga binigay ng Cale88 na justification? At hininga nyo ba sila ng kontrata or documents to give economic reasons for the deposits? 01:21:49.980 --> 01:22:06.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung sa amin po, pag nagre-report po yung covered person, it's just a report, so nagbabase lang po kami dun sa narrative nila. So tulad po nun, yung karamihan po, if I recall, let me check lang po yung records ko po, Your Honor. 01:22:09.720 --> 01:22:41.230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung Cale88 po, Your Honor, halimbawa po yung covered transaction reports po na 178 po. Wala pong explanation po na hinihingi ang AMLC or ang AMLA po kasi po basta po pumasok po dun sa higit 500,000, required po silang report. So wala na pong explanation po yun. Yung pong may STR po na nabanggit dito, ang initial po na ginagawa po nila, in-identify po nila yung reason bakit po sila nagpa-file ng STR po. 01:22:41.590 --> 01:22:42.510 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi, kaya nga babalik ka po 01:22:42.510 --> 01:22:57.280 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: dun sa unang katanungan. Well, dami na mga suspicious transactions. Paulit-ulit na lang. So wala kang ginawang aksyon para pumunta nga sa CA at i-investigahan to para i-tingnan kung mayroong money laundering activities to. 01:22:57.460 --> 01:23:11.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, for Cale88, tatlo po yung STRs. As present po, hindi ko po masabi, I'm able to disclose po if on the action further taken po on this, Your Honor. 01:23:11.260 --> 01:23:29.210 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Hindi pa ka-duda-duda na karamihan sa mga milyones na pondo na pumasok sa Cale88 ay galing sa mga bansang may critical na reputasyon sa money laundering, gaya halimbawa ng Russia, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, South Africa? Hindi pa ka nag-duda doon? 01:23:29.990 --> 01:23:47.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, apologies po, I cannot make a conclusion. I have no personal knowledge on the current. status po of the other of the countries mentioned on the of their financial standing or money laundering standing in the international community po. 01:23:50.260 --> 01:23:54.320 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Siguro si Atty. May, meron po akong question. 01:23:58.000 --> 01:23:58.800 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Atty. May, 01:23:59.080 --> 01:24:07.700 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: kasi natanggal yung pangalan ni Atty. Man Scarpio sa list of shareholders, corporate officers back in 2025. 01:24:08.790 --> 01:24:09.250 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: It 01:24:09.250 --> 01:24:12.910 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: seems to me that he couldn't have benefited from all the alleged transactions. 01:24:13.610 --> 01:25:04.660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We respectfully beg to disagree, Your Honor. First, as will be testified on by the BIR representative, Your Honor, there is nothing on record that will show, Your Honor, that there was a valid transfer because no capital gains tax, no payment of capital gains tax is reflected in the BIR records. That's one, Your Honor. And we find this, Your Honor, the supposed transfer of shares highly suspect, Your Honor, because again, aside from the fact that there's no record that capital gains tax was paid, even in the very own disclosure of the Vice President in 2025, she disclosed that Cale88 remains a business interest of her husband. 01:25:05.700 --> 01:25:24.120 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Hmm. Okay. Balik tayo dito kay Mr. Witness. Ang Cale88 na nakatanggap ng foreign currency deposit from China, according to records ito ah. Wala kang personal knowledge dito, records. Pinag-usapan natin. Dalama ba ng AMLC kung sino, anong korporasyon ang nagpadala dito? 01:25:26.020 --> 01:25:38.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nakatagap po, Your Honor, ng remittance po, Your Honor. Yes po, alam po namin, based po dun sa records po. Yung iba po dun ay... As I recall po, pinabasa po sa akin yung nagpadala po, Your Honor. 01:25:38.340 --> 01:25:50.200 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Malalaman ba kung ito ay government company or government-owned companies or private people yung mga nagpadala ng pera? 01:25:51.400 --> 01:26:01.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, hindi po namin malalaman. Wala po. Hindi po namin, hindi po required sa report na indicate kung ano po yung nature or specific nature po ng company po, Your Honor. 01:26:01.700 --> 01:26:05.050 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Last na naman, Mr. Witness. Okay, last na naman po. 01:26:05.550 --> 01:26:08.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed. You may proceed, Senator Judge Raffi. 01:26:08.910 --> 01:26:09.230 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank 01:26:09.230 --> 01:26:12.350 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: you very much. Kasi pag nalik yung bell, medyo nalulundag ako eh. 01:26:14.050 --> 01:26:31.870 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Balikan po natin, Mr. Witness, ang mga foreign remittances na natanggap ng Cale88 galing sa China. Base sa mga CTRs at STRs na isinumiti sa hukumang ito, magkano pong natukoy po natin na nanggaling sa China o sa mga Chinese entities lahat? 01:26:32.590 --> 01:26:49.110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As based on the records po, Your Honor, let me refer lang po to my notes po. The amount indicated po in our tabular summary is P319,326,770.41 sa tapos po, Your Honor. 01:26:49.310 --> 01:26:50.690 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Yan yung from China? 01:26:50.690 --> 01:26:50.950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 01:26:50.970 --> 01:26:51.270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 01:26:51.550 --> 01:26:54.950 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, sige. Yan muna po, Mr. President. Salamat po. 01:26:54.950 --> 01:26:55.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 01:26:55.290 --> 01:26:56.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Senator Judge Raffi. 01:26:59.050 --> 01:27:08.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: One more perhaps before we go to the redirect rather of Atty. May. Sen. Judge Sotto is recognized. 01:27:18.260 --> 01:27:21.120 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Thank you. Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer. 01:27:24.080 --> 01:28:02.350 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Atty. Ronel, minabanggit kanina eh and then this was mentioned in media about a so-called system glitch. Hindi ba ba? Connection to the BPI submitted list of 630 covered and 33 suspicious transactions in the account of Tony Carpio, total amount of 6.7 billion. And then sabi nila dito sa part of 6.7 billion, yung alleged 2 billion ay error or glitch. Diba? Ayaw nyo nang pag-usapan? Tama po ba yan? 01:28:02.630 --> 01:28:15.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po ma-verify po, Your Honor, yung ibang figures po. Pero based po doon sa nabanggit lang po kanina, Your Honor, na nagkaroon po ng request si BPI po, Your Honor, based on the records, ng correction po, Your Honor. 01:28:15.930 --> 01:28:21.150 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Ng correction. Yung 2 billion, naging 2 million. Hindi po ba? Ganun na lang nangyayari. 01:28:21.150 --> 01:28:21.390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung 01:28:21.390 --> 01:28:26.270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: pagkakaalala ko po, Your Honor, subject po doon sa mismong nakasulat sa records, Your Honor. 01:28:27.410 --> 01:28:32.450 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: So, sa inyo galing yung confirmation eh, di ba, BPI? 01:28:34.160 --> 01:28:39.040 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Nag-delete ng 13 erroneous covered transaction reports in this regard. 01:28:40.480 --> 01:29:05.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, as explained earlier po, to clarify din po, the BPI made the request po and then we acted on the request by validating and conducting the necessary audit po to... To confirm whether nagkaroon ba talaga ng error in the reporting po. And we found po that there is and we granted the request po, Your Honor. 01:29:05.550 --> 01:29:07.110 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: So you granted the request? 01:29:07.110 --> 01:29:07.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Yes, 01:29:09.250 --> 01:29:09.670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 01:29:09.990 --> 01:29:32.030 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Kasi sa tagal na panahon na meron akong account sa banko, iba-ibang banko, ni minsan di ko nakaranas na may kakilala man lang ako na naging bilyonis eh. Dahil sa back system glitch, 2 billion, tapos nangyayari ba talaga ito? 01:29:33.770 --> 01:29:41.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masabi, Your Honor, but we did receive a request on that regard from BPI, Your Honor. 01:29:41.970 --> 01:29:43.730 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Minsan lang yan. 01:29:43.730 --> 01:30:09.500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: At least from my time po as Executive Director, as far as I recall, Your Honor, this is first. But we receive po on a regular po yung mga sometimes may nagkakamali lang po talaga ng report na, or isa dalawa po, and then they submit the request. We validate po. Sometimes we grant, sometimes po hindi po. Yes. 01:30:09.500 --> 01:30:13.460 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Would you know kung mga ilang accounts na nationwide ang nangyayaring ganito? 01:30:16.360 --> 01:30:16.960 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: At 01:30:16.960 --> 01:30:20.680 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: kung ano-ano mga bangko na naapektuhan ng ganito mga glitch? 01:30:21.100 --> 01:30:26.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ay hindi ko po maisip or masabi po ngayon po, Your Honor. 01:30:29.200 --> 01:30:39.590 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: For this alleged glitch na lang, ilang covered transaction reports ang sinasabing erroneous para makabuo na from 2 billion naging 2 million? 01:30:40.910 --> 01:30:48.310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung tanda ko po, Your Honor, based subject po sa records na nabasa ko po kanina, 13, 13 po, Your Honor. 01:30:48.370 --> 01:30:51.110 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: 13, tama. Hindi niyong nakarating sa amin eh. 01:30:51.250 --> 01:30:51.890 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Ngayon 01:30:51.890 --> 01:30:58.770 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: ito, glitches na ito, nangyari sa total account balance, issuance ng manager's check. 01:31:09.220 --> 01:31:10.220 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: So 01:31:10.220 --> 01:31:15.040 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: paano nangyayari ang glitch sa issuance ng marriages check? 01:31:24.030 --> 01:31:41.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung glitch, Your Honor, hindi ko po masagot specifically but yung sa amin po is yung nai-report sa amin ay sabi po nila iba yung amount and then check po namin, validate po namin so makaiba po yung nakalagay so we corrected po accordingly po. 01:31:42.110 --> 01:31:56.340 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Tama ba na itong glitches na ito or glitch na ito nai-report lamang dito sa inyo sa AMLOC AMLC during the impeachment proceedings? Hindi ron ni-report ito dati nung araw? 01:31:57.960 --> 01:32:20.030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung basic po sa binasa ko po kanina, if I recall po, we received the request po April 8, 2026 po, Your Honor. So I'm not sure po kung may impeachment proceedings na po at that time. Also for the record po, I assume po kasi April 14, 2026, Your Honor, as Executive Director. 01:32:20.590 --> 01:32:21.110 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Alright. 01:32:22.640 --> 01:32:29.280 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Just in case there's a second round, Mr. Presiding Officer, I'll ask the rest of my questions later. 01:32:29.580 --> 01:32:31.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We will 01:32:31.420 --> 01:33:11.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: do so, Senator Judge Sotto. For the record, the Chair would like to correct itself. Tapang at Malasakit Alliance for the Philippines Incorporated is a registered foundation. It is registered with the SEC. and has a juridical personality that may be covered, if at all, either via bank deposits or insurance premiums or investments and the like. So the chair stands corrected in relation to that. 01:33:14.260 --> 01:33:18.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Senator Judge Villanueva is recognized. 01:33:20.840 --> 01:33:24.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For his interjections. You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. 01:33:25.620 --> 01:33:30.680 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you, Sir Presiding Officer. Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, kabayan. 01:33:31.220 --> 01:33:33.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Good morning po, Senator, Honorable Judge. 01:33:36.080 --> 01:33:36.640 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Just 01:33:36.640 --> 01:33:50.980 Sen. Joel Villanueva: to be more precise, without totally ignoring the reports given to us, meron po bang separate report from 2022 onwards when the time na si VP Sarah assume office ang AMLAC? 01:33:52.800 --> 01:34:00.420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor, that is Table 3 of the report, yung tabular summary, Your Honor. 01:34:00.620 --> 01:34:01.160 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Yes, 01:34:01.180 --> 01:34:01.420 Sen. Joel Villanueva: so 01:34:01.420 --> 01:34:02.400 Sen. Joel Villanueva: nakaseparate siya, no? 01:34:02.480 --> 01:34:09.320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, all CTRs and STRs involving VP and Attorney Manassas Carpio, 2022 to 2025, Your Honor. 01:34:09.320 --> 01:34:09.660 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank 01:34:09.660 --> 01:34:25.090 Sen. Joel Villanueva: you for that. Making that separation, Mr. Witness, what would be the aggregate inflows, outflows, and undetermined transactions? attributable to the period beginning 2022. 01:34:26.460 --> 01:34:37.760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based on our tabular summary, Your Honor, it is 424,179,536 pesos, 0.10 centavos po, Your Honor. 01:34:38.100 --> 01:34:53.610 Sen. Joel Villanueva: At dito sa table 3, yung entire calendar years, nakalagay o, 171 CTRs, 49 STRs, and approximately 424 0.18 million combined reported transactions. Is that correct? 01:34:55.550 --> 01:34:59.670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 424, 179, 536.10, Your Honor. 01:35:00.010 --> 01:35:43.640 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Yes. And, Atty. Buenaventura, if you look at Table 2 and you talk about suspicious transactions, there is an interesting contrast in your summary. Yung GenCorp, nakalagay po dito, it reflects approximately 3 billion pesos in reported transactions. Pero, no STR. indicated in the table. Pero yung 888 bistro reflects a much smaller aggregate amounting to 43 million pesos pero merong 1,197 STRs. How should the court bilang isang husgado na itong nga exercises na ginagawa natin can properly understand that contrast? 01:35:44.160 --> 01:35:45.460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, 01:35:47.190 --> 01:35:51.470 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Para po, honorable senator, just ipalawanag ko po. 01:35:53.510 --> 01:36:53.880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung, based lang po dun sa lo po, yung kung mas marami man po na CTR ang isang entity po, ibig sabihin lang po nun, marami po siyang transaction na mahigit po dun sa threshold na 500,000. So, ibig sabihin din po, Kung wala pong na-file na STR, kahit po sobrang dami ng transaction, ang tingin po ng covered person ay regular or wala pong presence ng any of the suspicious circumstances po. So, kaya po ganun. So, ganun din po doon sa isa pong nabanggit po ninyo na meron pong 1,197 na STRs, hindi po porket maliit yung amount, ay hindi na po may STR kasi ang hinahanap po ay Hindi po yung amount kundi yung kung meron pong suspicion or suspicious circumstances. So maaari pong maliit na maliit po yung amount pero marami po silang nakikita na suspicious circumstances sa mga transactions. So ire-report po nila ng ire-report po paulit-ulit po yan. 01:36:54.040 --> 01:37:07.400 Sen. Joel Villanueva: I was listening attentively dun sa cross-examination and you made mention that neither the amount nor the number of STR standing alone. would be enough or a reliable measure for illegality, unexplained guilt, or wrongdoing. Is that correct? 01:37:07.660 --> 01:37:08.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yan. 01:37:08.420 --> 01:37:48.290 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And you also mentioned that it's not just the threshold. Pagka ito'y suspicious, it would fall under STRs. Kaya merong 1,197 STR. So kung ito ay you being a legal, I would say, bar top notcher, no? What would the court need to examine before attaching substantive significance to those 1,197 SDRs? The underlying transactions, the reporting reason or red flag the parties involved, and the eventual AMLC analysis? 01:37:50.620 --> 01:37:58.510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, hindi ko po masagot. It's for the impeachment court to decide kung ano po yung Direction po na gusto nilang... 01:37:58.510 --> 01:37:58.950 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ulitin ko 01:37:58.950 --> 01:38:26.850 Sen. Joel Villanueva: lang po, Mr. Presiding Officer, kasi binanggit niyo po, it would not stand alone and you need further verification, investigation, so that it would fall under this wrongdoing, etc. Ganon din po kasi kami dito, itong korte, ang talagang tinitignan po namin, yung Article 2, yung unexplained wealth. So, ano po yung kailangan makita para mag-fall po doon? 01:38:28.270 --> 01:38:46.450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm just relying lang po, Your Honor, dun po sa nabanggit nyo. Kung katulad po namin na we have to still conduct further investigation, then kung ganun po yung procedure po ninyo sa honorable court po na to, then I think that would also be kung ano po yung dapat nyo po gawin, Your Honor. 01:38:46.450 --> 01:38:46.770 Sen. Joel Villanueva: I would 01:38:46.770 --> 01:38:59.790 Sen. Joel Villanueva: just rephrase, no? Para lang makuha ko yung... Para nagkakaintindihan po tayo, when would be the time na you would recommend the filing of cases? Kasi sabi niyo nga po kanina, hindi mag-stand alone yung STR. 01:39:01.010 --> 01:39:14.170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kami po, at least sa side po ng AMLC po, we file cases po if we think meron na po sufficient evidence to satisfy po or to overcome po yung... Yung requirement po sa court na quantum of proof po. 01:39:14.170 --> 01:39:14.630 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And what is 01:39:14.630 --> 01:39:15.870 Sen. Joel Villanueva: that evidence you're looking for? 01:39:16.050 --> 01:39:28.090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung forfeit lang po civilly po, that is preponderance of evidence po. And then kung criminal case po, proof na yan, reasonable doubt. Pero kung as part of investigation po, probable cause lang po. 01:39:28.270 --> 01:39:40.210 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Give me a leeway, Mr. Presiding Officer. Patanong po kasi ni Sen. Lito Lapid dito. Yung pong Atty. Buenaventura, yung issue po dito kasi nga again is unexplained well. Hindi lang po basta malalaking 01:39:44.260 --> 01:40:06.340 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Meron po ba kayong maituturo na kahit isang transaction sa AMLC record na pwede po natin matrace hanggang sa isang specific asset na nakuha o na-retain ng respondent at makikita or allegedly hindi makikita sa kanya pong SALN? Meron po ba? 01:40:07.000 --> 01:40:13.400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I apologize po. I cannot answer po. Ang masabi ko lang po kung ano po yung nasa records po. 01:40:13.460 --> 01:40:26.000 Sen. Joel Villanueva: At kung hindi po ito kayang gawin ng AMLC records alone, ang direct tracing na yun, ano po kayang ebidensya ang kailangan bago masabing meron pong unexplained wealth? 01:40:28.430 --> 01:40:57.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, with all due respect po, yung sa EMLC po kasi hindi po namin tinitignan kung may unexplained wealth or hindi. Ang tinitignan po namin kung may money laundering po or wala po or kung dapat po i-forfeit po or may probable cause po kung may money laundering. Yung apologies po, yung unexplained wealth po ay ito po yata is for the impeachment court to decide. So I don't want to put... Direction po sa court na not within my authority po, Your Honor. 01:40:57.150 --> 01:41:03.290 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you for clarifying that it means we really need to push harder and look for the evidence. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Thank you. 01:41:04.590 --> 01:41:08.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. Attorney May, are you ready? 01:41:08.810 --> 01:41:09.570 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 01:41:09.950 --> 01:41:19.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, you may proceed with your redirect. Attorney Mark is likewise recognized for the redirect of Attorney May. You may proceed when you're ready, ma'am. 01:41:20.460 --> 01:41:20.900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. 01:41:23.500 --> 01:41:37.100 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kanina po, on cross-examination, tinanong kayo ng pinanggalingan ng inward remittances to Cale88. Naalala niyo po ba yun? 01:41:37.140 --> 01:41:38.160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun, Your Honor. 01:41:40.170 --> 01:42:03.880 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Let me show you again several CTRs pertaining to those inward remittances that were reported to the MLC. Kindly refer to Exhibit P, Roman numeral number 2-7-23, pages 12a and 12b, 14th line. 01:42:03.880 --> 01:42:04.480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 01:42:04.480 --> 01:42:13.260 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor, objection. We never confronted the witness during cross-examination of these documents, so it is not the proper subject of redirect examination. 01:42:13.660 --> 01:42:30.590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, but you made mention of them. counsel. Only that the actual copies were not available yet to you at that time. In fact, the chair already got the TSN and I can furnish you in a bit for your recross if any. The chair will allow it. Witness will please answer. 01:42:34.810 --> 01:42:38.470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pages 12A and 12B, 14th line. 01:42:38.470 --> 01:42:38.950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are 01:42:38.950 --> 01:42:41.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: these the same slides you showed, Attorney May? 01:42:42.190 --> 01:42:42.910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 01:42:43.050 --> 01:42:53.670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: During direct? Then it gives you an opportunity, Attorney Mark, to look at it as well for your recross because the documents were not available to you at that time. 01:42:54.860 --> 01:43:01.780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Maaari niyo po bang basahin yung address ng transaksyon na nakareflect dyan sa CTR na yan? 01:43:10.340 --> 01:43:15.620 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, mayroon pong several addresses po na nakalagay. 01:43:18.170 --> 01:43:20.230 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Can you kindly read them for the record? 01:43:21.750 --> 01:43:36.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I-clarify ko lang po. Yung entry po dito is may address po. I think address po ng Cale88 may address po ng beneficiary pero blanco. May address po ng counterparty. 01:43:36.550 --> 01:43:37.610 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yung counterparty po. 01:43:38.670 --> 01:43:49.590 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang nakalagay po dito ay counterparty address add.nanhanji, Innovation Industrial China. 01:43:50.920 --> 01:44:02.160 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay, punta naman po tayo sa pages 12a and 12b, 15th line. Maaari niyo po ba rin basahin yung address ng counterparty na nakareflect dyan sa report na yan? 01:44:13.920 --> 01:44:17.660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: LTDRM8621NO599, Huignag, RD, Chengxi, China. 01:44:18.200 --> 01:44:24.560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa pages 22a to 22b, last line. Ano po ba ang... 01:44:28.540 --> 01:44:30.940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Address ng counterparty na naka-reflect dyan. 01:44:34.540 --> 01:44:45.420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nakalagay po ay enterprisesco.ltd8f5, Nong, Giannan, Lucy, and Beijing, Chaoyang 01:44:45.420 --> 01:44:55.080 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa pages 23a to 23b, first line. Maaari niyo po bang basahin yung address ng counterparty na naka-reflect dyan. 01:44:58.440 --> 01:45:07.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: enterprisesco.ltd8 5, 5, Nong, Jan, Nanlu, CN, Beijing, Chaoyang. 01:45:08.210 --> 01:45:16.470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And last, pages 17a to 17b, 13th line. Pakibasa rin po yung counterparty na nakasaad. 01:45:16.470 --> 01:45:17.030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Anong 01:45:24.320 --> 01:45:25.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: line po? 01:45:25.840 --> 01:45:26.660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 13th line po. 01:45:26.660 --> 01:45:27.600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 13th line, yes. 01:45:41.320 --> 01:45:48.040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wanda, Road, Bayuan, Street, Yiwo, Zhejiang, CHN. 01:45:50.410 --> 01:45:57.230 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa, kanina po, natanong din po kayo tungkol sa mga STRs relating to Cale88. 01:45:58.950 --> 01:45:59.550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon 01:45:59.550 --> 01:46:14.690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: punta naman po tayo sa Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-24B, page 2B. Maaari niyo po bang sabihin yung dahilan kung bakit nai-report as kahina-hinala yung transaksyon? 01:46:15.800 --> 01:46:19.200 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I believe that was asked and answered already, Your Honor. 01:46:19.580 --> 01:46:23.680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Not yet, Your Honor. This is, I'm on redirect, Your Honor. 01:46:23.840 --> 01:46:26.600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, but during direct, it was as an answer to review. 01:46:26.600 --> 01:46:28.620 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: But this question's presented from the... 01:46:28.620 --> 01:46:31.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We'll allow it, Attorney Mark. 01:46:31.260 --> 01:46:34.200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We'll allow it. We'll give you the same latitude and leeway on your recross. 01:46:35.260 --> 01:46:36.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer. 01:46:36.580 --> 01:46:40.580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry, Your Honor, your question po, saang page po, tsaka anong line? 01:46:40.820 --> 01:46:41.700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Page 2B. 01:46:41.860 --> 01:46:44.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Page 2B. Which one po? 01:46:45.040 --> 01:46:53.970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: First three lines. Yung dahilan po kung bakit na-report as kahina-hinala. Yung transaction na covered ng STR na yan. 01:46:54.090 --> 01:47:16.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Yung first line po, the reason indicated is there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification. Yung second po, ang nalagay ay there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification. Yung pangatlo po ay there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification po, Your Honor. 01:47:16.750 --> 01:47:17.250 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. 01:47:17.880 --> 01:47:26.550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you. Kanina rin po, tinanong din po kayo base sa kaalaman nyo sa corporate law. Naalala niyo po ba yan? 01:47:26.790 --> 01:47:29.390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Opo, sa limited na kaalaman ko po yan. 01:47:29.670 --> 01:47:47.740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Based po sa knowledge nyo on corporate law, ano po ba ang minamandate sa mga korporasyon kapag yung unrestricted retained earnings nito ay nag-exceed ng 100% of its capital, paid up capital? 01:47:52.200 --> 01:48:05.600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, and subject to what the law provides and to my limited knowledge po of corporate law, if there is 100% of the unrestricted retained earnings, they have to declare dividends po, Your Honor. 01:48:05.600 --> 01:48:06.200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At 01:48:06.200 --> 01:48:13.720 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: kapag ang korporasyon naman ay nagde-deklara ng dividends, sino po ang tumatanggap ng mga dividendo ng korporasyon? 01:48:14.040 --> 01:48:22.110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: And Your Honor, subject to what the law actually provides and to my limited knowledge po of corporate law, It's the stockholders po, Your Honor. 01:48:22.370 --> 01:48:33.530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At kapag ang korporasyon ay mayroong dalawa lamang na stockholders, sino po ang tatanggap ng mga dividendo na diniklara ng korporasyon? 01:48:33.670 --> 01:48:35.050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. Speculative. 01:48:35.350 --> 01:48:35.850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 01:48:35.850 --> 01:48:44.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: do you mean by two stockholders, Attorney May? It's an OPC? It's an OPC with two registered stockholders? 01:48:45.330 --> 01:48:47.190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. Or, yeah. 01:48:48.150 --> 01:48:52.570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Otherwise, it would be under the old law with five incorporators. 01:48:52.770 --> 01:48:54.490 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 01:48:54.490 --> 01:48:54.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If 01:48:54.930 --> 01:48:55.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: he 01:48:55.010 --> 01:48:55.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: knows. 01:48:57.290 --> 01:49:05.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Subject to what the law actually provides and to my limited knowledge, Your Honor, the two stockholders will receive the dividends, Your Honor. 01:49:05.890 --> 01:49:06.950 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: That would be all, Your Honor. 01:49:08.660 --> 01:49:13.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Attorney Mark, yes, any recourse? 01:49:14.020 --> 01:49:15.400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just a few questions. 01:49:15.400 --> 01:49:16.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, sir. 01:49:16.300 --> 01:49:24.960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You mentioned, thank you, Your Honor. You mentioned or you were asked to read three addresses of business entities based 01:49:24.960 --> 01:49:26.080 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: in China. 01:49:26.080 --> 01:49:27.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes. 01:49:27.240 --> 01:49:28.520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yung kakabasa niyo lang po. 01:49:28.520 --> 01:49:28.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po. 01:49:29.100 --> 01:49:37.460 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But based on AMLC records, again, just to reiterate, meron po ba kayong paraan para malaman kung legitimate o illegitimate itong mga businesses na ito? 01:49:37.970 --> 01:49:40.110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po. Hindi po yung kasama sa naka-report. 01:49:40.110 --> 01:49:40.410 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. 01:49:40.510 --> 01:49:48.630 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're also confronted with the phrase, no underlying legal or trade obligation. Tama po? Yung binasa niyo po, kakabasa niyo. 01:49:48.630 --> 01:49:48.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po. 01:49:48.930 --> 01:49:49.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. You're 01:49:49.550 --> 01:49:49.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: on. 01:49:49.750 --> 01:49:56.010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That is a direct lift from section, from the AMLA law, correct? 01:49:57.530 --> 01:50:02.270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Definitions ng suspicious transactions, yung purpose number 1 sa B-1. 01:50:02.270 --> 01:50:03.230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 01:50:03.230 --> 01:50:16.770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, ibig sabihin, mismong batas ang sasabi, Na pag there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose or economic justification, it is mandated to be reported as STR. Tama po? 01:50:16.770 --> 01:50:17.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 01:50:17.490 --> 01:50:33.030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. You were also asked about the two incorporators or stockholders and clarifying the presiding officer. Nangyayari yun pag may OPC. Tama? Meron dyan sa report nyo, meron bang OPC dyan kahit isa? 01:50:38.150 --> 01:51:05.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies po with respect to my limited knowledge on corporation law and subject to what the law actually provides. As far as I recall po, the revised corporation code now permits stockholders even below number of five, yung OPC po kapag isa lang po. So I would say na kahit less than five po can now be allowed, Your Honor. But nonetheless po, to answer the question po, 01:51:07.940 --> 01:51:22.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Not to answer po. Hindi ko po ma-determine based doon sa CTR, sa names ng corporations sa CTRs or STRs kung sila po ay OPC or hindi po. 01:51:22.920 --> 01:51:26.340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Pero di ba required yun na ilagay mo na OPC sa corporate team mo? 01:51:26.580 --> 01:51:27.580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Argumentative, Your Honor. 01:51:27.580 --> 01:51:29.800 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Not just if he knows, Your Honor. Only if he knows. 01:51:30.550 --> 01:51:36.030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As far as I recall, again, Your Honor, subject to what the law actually provides and to my limited knowledge of corporate 01:51:36.030 --> 01:51:37.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: law, yes, Your Honor. 01:51:37.430 --> 01:51:41.810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Pero dun sa corporations na yun, wala naman nakalagay na OPC, tama? 01:51:44.790 --> 01:51:50.470 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yung, sorry, corporation po. Dun sa nakalista dun sa tabular summaries niyo po. Wala namang OPC dun, di ba? 01:51:50.470 --> 01:51:50.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa 01:51:50.550 --> 01:51:54.330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: tabular summary po, hindi, wala po kaming, yung 01:51:56.470 --> 01:51:58.410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: entities po ba, Your Honor? 01:51:58.410 --> 01:52:00.450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yung entities, yung corporations. 01:52:00.450 --> 01:52:02.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Let me verify lang po yung subpoena, Your Honor. 01:52:28.420 --> 01:52:33.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based po sa supina po sa amin, Your Honor, wala pong nakalagay ng OPC. 01:52:33.260 --> 01:52:33.540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay 01:52:33.540 --> 01:52:33.720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. 01:52:34.460 --> 01:52:44.400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You were also asked about unrestricted retained earnings. Meron po ba kayong personal knowledge ng unrestricted retained earnings ng kahit ano pong corporation na nakalista dyan? 01:52:44.400 --> 01:52:47.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po. Wala po kaming records, Your Honor. 01:52:47.100 --> 01:52:47.820 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That would be all, Your Honor. 01:52:48.320 --> 01:53:12.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. We have 1, 2, 3, 4... 5, 6, 7 Senators, let's try to do it and see how far we can go without counting those for round 2 before we break for lunch and see if we can dispense with this witness before we break for lunch. Senator Judge Lacson is recognized for his intervention. 01:53:14.400 --> 01:53:17.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You have 2 minutes sir, you may proceed when you're ready. 01:53:17.060 --> 01:53:19.900 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you Mr. President Officer. Good morning 01:53:19.900 --> 01:53:21.910 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Attorney. 01:53:21.910 --> 01:53:22.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Good 01:53:22.430 --> 01:53:24.450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: morning po, Honorable Senator. 01:53:24.450 --> 01:53:24.690 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Just for 01:53:24.690 --> 01:53:37.330 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: our education, on a monthly basis, on the average, how many covered and suspicious transaction receipts do you receive and analyze in 01:53:38.060 --> 01:53:38.760 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: a month? 01:53:38.760 --> 01:53:45.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I have no immediate figures. Estimate po, we receive, at 01:53:46.880 --> 01:53:51.460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: least for last year po, we receive a total of about 200 01:53:54.720 --> 01:53:57.200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 120 million, if I recall, Your Honor. In a 01:53:57.200 --> 01:54:04.420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: year po, so that's about, kung average po, ang tanda ko po is about, siguro po, about 10 million po. 01:54:04.520 --> 01:54:04.820 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: That's why 01:54:04.820 --> 01:54:07.280 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: it's time-made kayo, diba, sa trabaho ninyo. 01:54:07.280 --> 01:54:07.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 01:54:07.740 --> 01:54:08.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 01:54:08.160 --> 01:54:27.200 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: And that's also the reason why, for this year, I remember this, because ang finance committee chairman o new senate president, we worked to augment your budget along that line. We gave you 162 million. 941,000. So, are you coping up? 01:54:28.320 --> 01:54:53.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Thank you po in the first place for your honor. Maraming po salamat for helping on that part. Yes po, we're trying to cope up po. But of course, yung based po dun sa nabigay po na budget, we allocated We're allocated po for the infrastructure and technology po. So, but that one po kasi syempre procurement and then we have to adjustment period po at this stage. But yes, we're trying to cope up na po on that one. 01:54:53.900 --> 01:55:04.060 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yeah, now I understand why you're having difficulty responding to questions either ng direct or sa cross. Kasi hindi mo maalala lahat, di ba? 01:55:04.060 --> 01:55:04.420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama 01:55:04.420 --> 01:55:04.580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po 01:55:04.580 --> 01:55:04.780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yun. 01:55:04.780 --> 01:55:19.460 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: In fact, sabi nga ni Santolito, ang kapal nung papel na pinapakita sa iyo. Mahirap talaga hanapin. Anyway, next question. Is the AMLC capable of conducting criminal investigation in pursuit of prosecution? 01:55:19.960 --> 01:55:20.760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your 01:55:20.760 --> 01:55:21.220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 01:55:21.220 --> 01:55:32.400 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Or are you limited to financial investigation and evidence gathering to assist law enforcement agencies? Because money laundering is not a stand-alone crime or offense. 01:55:32.760 --> 01:55:42.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. We can conduct on our own. We can conduct together with the law enforcement. We can conduct parallel investigation, Your Honor. 01:55:42.900 --> 01:55:48.380 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: But you cannot conduct it alone. Kasi how can you investigate kidnap or ransom? 01:55:48.380 --> 01:55:49.400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 01:55:49.860 --> 01:55:51.060 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: How can you conduct smuggling? 01:55:51.540 --> 01:55:53.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. So, 01:55:53.040 --> 01:55:55.520 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: mas financial investigation ang inyong participation? 01:55:56.220 --> 01:55:57.160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun, Your Honor. 01:55:57.720 --> 01:56:11.070 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: So, I was just wondering when you were asked kung ilan na yung kasong naimbisigan at na-efile? So, mostly this is in collaboration with other law enforcement agencies or assisting them, ano? 01:56:11.190 --> 01:56:11.710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 01:56:11.770 --> 01:56:12.930 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yung financial investigation. 01:56:12.930 --> 01:56:13.030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 01:56:13.050 --> 01:56:24.400 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Okay, punta tayo doon sa political harassment. Natouch ito ni Atty. Bin Luan. Nare-record mo ba yung legislative intent nung Section 16, prohibitions against political harassment? 01:56:24.900 --> 01:56:26.160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies po, hindi po. 01:56:26.200 --> 01:57:27.820 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Okay, ako ayaw magsasabi because I was here in 2001 when we passed 9160. This amendment was introduced by the late Nene Pimentel, Senator Nene Pimentel, because at that time, we were in the opposition. So, ang intent nito, doon lang sa election period, na hindi makukover ng batas lahat ng kandidato. And I remember, and Senator Kiko will attest to this, payag agad si Senator Delate. Both are late. had already passed on. Sabi niya, agreed, because time would come, kami naman ang nasa opposition, yun ang intent, hindi yung harassment per se, or harassment in the general sense of the word. So, if we go back and review the transcript, doon lang limited yun, yung section 16, prohibitions against political harassment, that's along 01:57:30.260 --> 01:57:37.080 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yung harassment, along the line ng harassment during campaign period. Kindly review that. 01:57:37.080 --> 01:57:37.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, 01:57:37.360 --> 01:57:40.320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: salamat po. Thank you po for the enlightenment po, Your Honor. 01:57:40.380 --> 01:57:44.210 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Nakalagay doon eh. Sa second paragraph. 01:57:44.210 --> 01:57:48.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Last few words. You may finish up, 01:57:48.150 --> 01:57:49.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. At Sen. Judge Lacson. 01:57:49.770 --> 01:58:02.660 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: No case for money laundering may be filed against and no assets shall be frozen, attached, or forfeited to the prejudice of a candidate. for an electoral office during an election period. Yeah. 01:58:02.980 --> 01:58:04.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, Your Honor. 01:58:04.180 --> 01:58:25.720 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: So doon lang yun halos nakalimit, di ba? Kasi pagka, di ba, ako hindi ako bagado, pero alam ko, pag may konting vagueness, babalik tayo sa intent, di ba? So transcript. So hindi ito yung general sense na political harassment. I would just like to correct that, ano. Kasi doon nga yung nagkaroon ng issues si Senator Raffi na yung intimidation. 01:58:27.780 --> 01:58:32.800 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Harassment. I would just like to clarify that. Next round na lang ulit ako, Mr. President Officer. 01:58:33.100 --> 01:58:39.640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, thank you very much, Senator Judge Lacson. The Senate President is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes. 01:58:40.640 --> 01:58:46.320 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you very much, Mr. President Officer. Magandang umaga, Atty. Bonaventura. 01:58:46.320 --> 01:58:47.300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Good morning po, Senate 01:58:47.300 --> 01:58:47.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: President. 01:58:48.220 --> 01:59:46.880 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tinignan ko dito sa iyong report na merong pumasok 776 million sa Cali88 Foods. May inflow siya na 776 million. May outflow siya na 154 million. Ngayon, itong 776 million, ilang beses ko na binabalikan yung kanilang available na balance sheet. Hindi ko makita dito dahil ang kanilang paid up capital, yung kanilang capital dito ay 125,000 lang. Yung cumulative sales nila since 2021 is only 23 million. Ang assets nila 18 million. Ang liabilities is 20 million. So in your opinion, saan punta itong 776 million na pumasok? 01:59:48.150 --> 01:59:59.370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies, Your Honor. I am unable to give my opinion. I can only testify on the records and the records will not indicate where it went except on what is stated. 02:00:02.620 --> 02:00:18.880 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yung meron rin kanina na pag-usapan rin itong suspicious transactions at nasabi na merong, isa sa mga dahilan, there is no underlying legal or trade obligation purpose or economic justification. Anong ibig sabihin nito? 02:00:20.980 --> 02:00:23.220 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Nasa suspicious transaction ito na 02:00:23.220 --> 02:00:23.520 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kale. 02:00:24.270 --> 02:00:35.710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I don't want to add po sana na interpretation po on that. It's what is indicated in the law po. There's no underlying legal trade obligation, purpose or economic justification. 02:00:35.710 --> 02:00:41.990 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Can you give an example? For example, kung may pumasok na pera, walang invoice o resibo, pasok ba siya dito? 02:00:45.780 --> 02:00:50.480 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: May pumasok na pera, pero wala namang mapakitang invoice, walang mapakitang resibo. 02:00:51.360 --> 02:01:00.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hypothetical. Hypothetical po, Your Honor. Maari po. But we have to consider all other factors po. Yung profile po niya, mga previous transaction po, Your Honor. 02:01:01.060 --> 02:01:08.300 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Meron pa isang dahilan. The amount involved is not commensurate with the business or financial capacity of the client. Anong ibig sabihin nito? 02:01:10.050 --> 02:01:17.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yun po yung nakalagay doon sa law. So I don't want to add. Meaning po, on that... Kung 02:01:17.380 --> 02:01:29.380 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: meron, kung ang capital ay 125,000 tapos pumasok 776 million in sales or in cash, hindi natin alam kung sales or ano yun, pasok ba siya dito? 02:01:29.380 --> 02:01:31.260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: If wala pong... 02:01:31.260 --> 02:01:36.980 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Is the capital commensurate to 125,000 commensurate to 776 million? 02:01:39.190 --> 02:01:41.190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I can answer, Your Honor, 02:01:41.270 --> 02:01:45.830 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: but... Based on your analysis. Pasok ba siya dito sa dahilan na ito? Yun naman ang tanong ko. 02:01:47.930 --> 02:01:48.370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi 02:01:49.290 --> 02:02:05.290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ko po makapagbigay, Your Honor, kasi I still have to check po yung nature talaga ng business entire. If based po dito sa juridical person po na ito, we have to conduct further investigation po if needed, Your Honor. Apologies po. 02:02:07.380 --> 02:02:27.140 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kasi kung hindi mahanap sa libro yung 776 million, candidate ba itong Cale88 for money laundering? In your expert opinion and in mga experience mo, dapat ma-reflect yan sa books, di ba? Eh hindi ma-reflect sa books. Isang candidate for money laundering? 02:02:27.700 --> 02:02:31.040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yaron, we'll have to further investigate po if... On 02:02:31.040 --> 02:02:33.440 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: this example. 02:02:33.440 --> 02:02:33.980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As 02:02:33.980 --> 02:02:35.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: starting point po, 02:02:38.960 --> 02:02:39.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Difficult. 02:02:39.440 --> 02:02:47.040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: A starting point. A starting point, maaari po, maaari lang po. But I have to consider all other factors po. 02:02:47.040 --> 02:02:47.340 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pero 02:02:47.340 --> 02:02:49.440 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: pwede siyang candidate for 02:02:49.440 --> 02:02:50.220 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: money laundering. 02:02:52.180 --> 02:02:54.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We'll have to check po yung kung may predicate ka rin po. 02:02:54.740 --> 02:02:56.160 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pero pwede siyang maging candidate. 02:02:56.160 --> 02:03:01.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung candidate lang po, yes. But we have to consider all other factors po. 02:03:01.180 --> 02:03:01.660 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ano 02:03:01.660 --> 02:03:04.420 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: ang next step pag naging candidate na siya for money laundering? 02:03:04.790 --> 02:03:26.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In general, we have to determine kung ano po yung unlawful activity na maaaring pinanggalingan po ng pera or naging transaction po doon sa pera. So, hanapin po namin meron ba ito, ano yung involved ba ito sa kidnapping for ransom, involved ba ito sa drug trafficking. 02:03:27.990 --> 02:03:32.700 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Dito nyo natitignan yung source nung... Pero kung saan siya nanggaling? 02:03:33.120 --> 02:03:53.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo. Yung iba po kasi covered person po, they report na po. So may starting point po kami kung saan. Kung wala naman po, kami po yung magahanap po noon kung saan po namin, kung meron man po. Siyempre, hindi naman po namin ipipilit kung wala naman po talaga. So kung meron po, gagawin po namin yung trabaho po namin. 02:03:53.860 --> 02:03:54.100 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But 02:03:54.100 --> 02:03:57.960 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: from your perspective, kailangan nyo malaman kung saan nanggaling yung pera? 02:03:58.170 --> 02:04:09.850 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po kasi requirement po yun for us under the law that the proceeds must come from illegal activity po. 02:04:09.850 --> 02:04:09.970 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So 02:04:09.970 --> 02:04:18.790 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: dito nyo na rin titignan kasi kalahati nung sales nila galing ng China, dito nyo na rin titignan whether itong entity sa China legitimate or not. 02:04:19.200 --> 02:04:24.480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I cannot answer for this one, Your Honor. But in general lang po. In general po. In 02:04:24.480 --> 02:04:25.060 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: general lang. In 02:04:25.060 --> 02:04:33.500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: general po. In the normal course of things, yes, it will be looked at. All factors po, Your Honor. 02:04:33.500 --> 02:04:35.060 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 02:04:35.060 --> 02:04:35.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 02:04:35.340 --> 02:04:39.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Mr. Senate President. Senator Judge Pangalino has recognized. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready. You have 02:04:39.580 --> 02:04:39.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: two minutes. 02:04:41.670 --> 02:04:50.910 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. A few questions for Attorney Divina Gracia. Just to Refresher memories. 02:04:52.430 --> 02:05:05.010 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tama na yung SEC witness the other time, the other day, testified as to Cale88, the GIS, tama? Do you recall that? 02:05:05.110 --> 02:05:05.790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, yes sir. 02:05:06.030 --> 02:05:15.790 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And that in the GIS, the Man Scarpio had 40%, will you recall that? 02:05:16.050 --> 02:05:17.990 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 47.5%, po. 02:05:18.090 --> 02:05:18.830 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: In what year? 02:05:19.840 --> 02:05:27.940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 2021 until 2024. In 2025 po, wala na po yung pangalan niya, napalitan na ito ng isang company, Pikimong. 02:05:28.920 --> 02:06:10.800 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, and that's why I think maybe the question is, given the latest information that we have obtained from the AMLA, should we now, well, I don't know, I will leave that up to the court to decide. also look into Pikimon because Man Scarpio was president from 2021 to 2024 40% umangat ng 47% sa Kale88 tapos noong 2025 wala na siya. Saka if I recall we were not able to 02:06:13.960 --> 02:06:18.760 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Secure the audited financial statements of Cale88, is that correct? 02:06:19.180 --> 02:06:23.120 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Wala po silang finial sa SEC. 02:06:23.120 --> 02:06:24.240 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: That was also testified 02:06:24.240 --> 02:06:24.860 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: too, no? 02:06:25.100 --> 02:06:25.880 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. Yes, 02:06:25.880 --> 02:06:26.040 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: yes. 02:06:26.260 --> 02:06:34.960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pero meron po silang inattach na audited financial statements sa naka-attach annual returns po nila sa BIR. 02:06:35.580 --> 02:06:46.580 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, so that will be presented, I assume, sa BIR. Pero wala silang audit. Would that be regular, yung failure to file audited financial statements? 02:06:46.980 --> 02:06:51.640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Hindi po. In fact, meron pong penalty for non-filing of financial statements. 02:06:51.640 --> 02:06:59.580 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So he testified, tama ba yan? The SEC testified na walang audited financial statements. 02:06:59.580 --> 02:06:59.780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: For 02:06:59.780 --> 02:07:01.940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 2024 and 2025 po. 02:07:01.940 --> 02:07:02.320 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At 02:07:02.320 --> 02:07:18.960 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: the time when the... Tama ba dinoong Buenaventura na yung 2024, 2025, Cale88 transactions na gumagaling China was 2024 and 2025? 02:07:19.940 --> 02:07:20.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, 02:07:22.860 --> 02:07:30.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I cannot, based on the table, Your Honor, I cannot say, Your Honor, but our tabulation po kasi is from 02:07:32.960 --> 02:07:40.780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 2007 to 2025 for specific for Cale88 po. Yung isa po is 2022 to 2025, Your Honor. 02:07:40.880 --> 02:07:43.360 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, yes, 2022 to 2025. 02:07:43.360 --> 02:07:43.720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes 02:07:43.720 --> 02:07:45.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po, yes po. So, 02:07:45.940 --> 02:07:52.280 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: could you break that down? Ano ang pumasok from 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025? 02:07:52.840 --> 02:08:05.450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, there is no breakdown po in the, we were not able to prepare a breakdown on that. For specific country, but specific years po, but meron pong yung aggregate lang po yung meron na. 02:08:05.450 --> 02:08:05.650 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, 02:08:05.650 --> 02:08:10.210 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: from 2022 to 2025, dun pumasok yung 319 million, tama ba? 02:08:11.800 --> 02:08:13.620 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasama po yun sa pumasok. 02:08:13.660 --> 02:08:17.020 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, but from that period, 2022 to 2025? 02:08:21.700 --> 02:08:22.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung 02:08:24.960 --> 02:08:27.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: remittance po, Your Honor. 02:08:27.560 --> 02:08:28.620 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. 02:08:28.620 --> 02:08:55.940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung table 5 po, your honor, did not indicate po yung year po. Ang meron po kami na indicate na year ay yung CTRs, STRs transactions po noong table 4 po, 2022 to 2025. Doon po, yung Cale88 po, ang total aggregated amount po niya is 10 transactions po, 1,254,736. 02:08:58.570 --> 02:09:03.150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 1,254,736,297.08 02:09:03.150 --> 02:09:04.190 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So from 02:09:04.190 --> 02:09:06.710 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: the period 2022 to 2025? 02:09:06.710 --> 02:09:07.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 02:09:07.430 --> 02:09:08.670 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, go ahead. 02:09:08.970 --> 02:09:17.470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: If I may, Your Honor, it's safe to assume that, Your Honor, because Cale88 was only incorporated in September 2001. 02:09:18.390 --> 02:09:18.990 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. 02:09:20.280 --> 02:09:54.560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, 2021. September 2021. And also, Your Honor, if I may just clarify, Your Honor, yung sa Piki Mong po na nabanggit kanina, it is our humble submission, Your Honor, that there was no valid transfer. Tulad nga po nang sinabi ko, there was no valid transfer because there is no record of any e-car documenting the transfer from Attorney Man Scorpio to Piki Mong. And also, Your Honor, even in the 2025 SALN, of the Vice President, she still disclosed Cale88 as among the business interests. 02:09:54.820 --> 02:09:55.540 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: In 2020? 02:09:56.040 --> 02:10:01.200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 2025, December 31, 2025, SALN. 02:10:01.460 --> 02:10:23.850 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. So, just to put it all together, KL88 was incorporated in 2021. From the period of 2022 to 2025, The AMLA records are saying there was transactions amounting to 1 point how many billion? 02:10:24.350 --> 02:10:32.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 1,254,736,297.08 based on record. Tabular summary. 02:10:32.790 --> 02:10:33.150 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And 02:10:33.150 --> 02:10:49.770 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: in 2022 to 2024 from 40% stockholder owners Si Man Scarpio naging 47% by 2024. But then in 2025, wala na siya. 02:10:49.990 --> 02:10:51.470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Wala po sa GIS. 02:10:51.470 --> 02:10:51.790 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Wala na 02:10:51.790 --> 02:10:54.450 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: siya sa GIS at pikimong-pikimong na. 02:10:54.610 --> 02:10:55.870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pikimong-pikimong. 02:10:56.030 --> 02:10:58.410 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. Okay. So, okay. 02:11:00.010 --> 02:11:11.550 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Maraming mga interesting na maaari nating tanungin sa SEC and then sa BIR. Thank you. No further questions. 02:11:11.710 --> 02:11:12.170 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Your Honor. 02:11:14.630 --> 02:11:15.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 02:11:20.040 --> 02:11:20.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is 02:11:20.180 --> 02:11:36.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the pleasure of the senator judges? We have Senators Erwin Tulfo, Padilla for round one. Thereafter, Senators Pia Cayetano, Sotto, Ontiveros, and Lacson for round two. May dagdag ba? 02:11:38.610 --> 02:11:39.770 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Pwede ako naman sinabi ko. 02:11:42.750 --> 02:11:43.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, okay. 02:11:45.530 --> 02:11:46.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, we pause for lunch? 02:11:48.870 --> 02:11:51.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nakatayo ka na dyan, walang time magagawa. 02:11:51.390 --> 02:11:51.890 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kaya 02:11:51.890 --> 02:11:53.450 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: inunahan ko na, presiding 02:11:53.450 --> 02:11:54.010 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: officer. 02:11:54.010 --> 02:11:57.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mukhang ayaw mo pa nga eh. Senator Judge Erwin is recognized. 02:11:59.150 --> 02:11:59.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 02:11:59.650 --> 02:12:08.490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: let's finish with Senator Judge Padilla. It's okay with Senator. So we finish with round one. Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo, you may proceed when you're ready, sir. 02:12:08.710 --> 02:12:18.690 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Maraming salamat po, ginawang presiding officer, ginawang testigo. Ano ba ang AMLAC? At para saan po ito itinatag? Anong trabaho ng AMLOC? 02:12:19.530 --> 02:12:50.450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, yung AMLOC po ay nakreate po pursuan po sa batas po, Republic Act No. 960 or Anti-Money Laundering Act. Ang base po sa mandato niya under Section 2 ng law, under law po, ang nakalagi po doon ay to ensure that the Philippines shall not be used as money laundering site. for proceeds of unlawful activity. So kasama na rin po dito yung to ensure the integrity of the Philippine financial system po. 02:12:50.450 --> 02:12:50.730 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alright, 02:12:51.130 --> 02:13:06.090 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: para sa kalaman po ng karamihan ng mga kababayan natin, ang ibig po ba sabihin ng money laundering, nililinis ang maruming pera, nilalabhan ang perang madumi, kung saan nanggaling ito kapag ipinasok sa lehitimong negosyo? 02:13:07.760 --> 02:13:14.420 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Ay, mawawala na ang trail na galing ito sa marumi. Tama po ba ganun explanation po ng money laundering, sir? 02:13:14.700 --> 02:13:16.760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Tama po. Tama po. 02:13:16.860 --> 02:13:20.240 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Gaano po kahirap matuntun ang pinanggalingan ng maruming pera? 02:13:22.100 --> 02:13:43.800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Mahirap po, Your Honor, kasi we have to establish po yung... Financial trail po, hanapin po namin yung unlawful activity, kung ano po yung illegal na activity po na ginawa, hanapin po namin yung proceeds, hanapin po namin yung saan po trinansak at saan po dinala po, Your Honor. 02:13:43.800 --> 02:13:43.980 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: May 02:13:43.980 --> 02:13:49.800 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: pagkakataon ba attorney na hindi natutuntun o matrace ang source ng pera kapag nalinis na po? 02:13:52.460 --> 02:13:57.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Maari po, pero maari pa rin po matuntun, mahirap lang po, pero... 02:13:59.360 --> 02:14:01.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Mandato po namin na gawin po yun, na hanapin po. 02:14:01.860 --> 02:14:13.920 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Dito niyo ba ginagamit ang inyong CIF funds na 9 point something million, napakalait po? Sapat po ba yun para matuntun at habulin po mga drug lord, mga smuggler, etc., etc. sa ating bayan? 02:14:17.330 --> 02:14:26.630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung totoo po, maliit po yun kumpara dun sa mandato po na nakaatang po sa amin. Iyon po ay personal ko lang po na opinion, Your Honor. 02:14:26.970 --> 02:14:30.050 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Take note, Finance Chair J.B. Hersito. 02:14:31.890 --> 02:14:38.270 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Sir, maaaring ipaliwanag mabilisan lamang ang proseso na dinadaanan ng AMLOC matapos makakuha ng STR? 02:14:39.390 --> 02:15:29.160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, pag nakakuha po kami ng STR po, tulad po nung nabanggit ko kanina, sobrang dami po kasi may natatanggap, we will prioritize po yung mga STR. So, meron po kami tinitignan ng mga, kumbaga, high risk crimes po na Iwanahin po namin. And then mula po doon i-analyze po namin yung report. And then base po doon sa initial na analysis po, financial intelligence na report po, ibibigay po namin yun doon sa aming investigation po. Yung investigation group naman po, sila na po yung lalabas talaga. Kakausap po ng mga other law enforcement kung may kailangan po kaming information. Kukolekta po, punta po doon sa lugar, sa negosyo po mismo, titignan kung legitimate ba. So sila na po yung bubuo ng kwento. Kung kailangan pa po namin ng information po sa bangko, doon po 02:15:29.160 --> 02:16:00.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: mapafile po kami ng... bank inquiry po. Kung kailangan po namin, kung tingin namin na baka maalerto yung criminal po or yung money launderer po, magpo-file po kami ng freeze order. Kasi po, pag nag-imbestiga kami, siyempre, necessarily po, we have to ask, baka mamaya makarating po sa kanila. So, magpo-file po kami ng freeze order. Pag nabuo na po namin yung kwento, or yung case, kaso po, maari din po na ipa-file po namin yun. So, kung abot na po dun sa beyond reasonable doubt, criminal case, or kung hindi po, civil case lang po. 02:16:18.590 --> 02:16:19.570 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Sir, 02:16:19.570 --> 02:16:26.390 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: marami po kayong pinakita mga dokumento, mga bank accounts ng prosecution. 02:16:27.900 --> 02:16:37.780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kahapon at kanina. May nakikita ka bang discrepancy sa mga transactions ng mag-asawang Carpio at Duterte sa kanilang mga bangko since 2007? 02:16:39.390 --> 02:16:47.850 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, what I can only report po is yung pong nasopina po sa amin and yun lang po yung nailagay din po sa record. 02:16:47.850 --> 02:16:49.130 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kaya nga po may nakikita 02:16:49.130 --> 02:16:50.070 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: po kay discrepancy. 02:17:06.760 --> 02:17:07.940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So okay, 02:17:12.000 --> 02:17:30.180 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: bilang abogado po, may conflict of interest ka ba nakikita na ang VP, kumpanya ni VP or corporations, nakikipag-transaction sa isang foreign state owned by a foreign state owner? company like China. Bilang abogado, sir. Do you see any conflict of interest here? 02:17:31.990 --> 02:17:36.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm... Hindi ko po masagot, Your Honor. 02:17:38.220 --> 02:17:42.280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masagot on that one, Your Honor. 02:17:42.280 --> 02:17:43.200 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: I understand, 02:17:43.320 --> 02:17:55.610 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: sir. You want to play safe. But anyway, may nakikita ka bang mali sa pagtanggap na remittance ng Cale88? na isa sa mga company po na inuugnay kay VP Sara ng 319 million mula sa China at Hong Kong. 02:17:56.720 --> 02:18:19.500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So tulad nga po na sabi ko po kung ano lang po yung nasa records, Your Honor. So kung if and when na kailangan po namin gawin, titignan pa po namin kasi yung ano po ba yung legitimate yung mga transactions po, may documents po diba? So at this point po hindi ko po masasabi your honor based lang po sa record sir. 02:18:19.580 --> 02:18:24.780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alright sir. Yung mga bangko I'm sure nire-report po sa inyo yung mga kahina-hinalang mga transaction. Tama po? 02:18:24.980 --> 02:18:26.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun. 02:18:26.120 --> 02:18:26.520 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alright. 02:18:26.560 --> 02:18:40.480 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: May ginagawa ba kayong sarili investigation pag inireport na po sa inyo? Itong government official na ito may problema tayo, I'm locked. Can you do something about it? Or hinahayaan nyo lang? Or dahil mataas na official medyo may ikang special privilege? 02:18:41.780 --> 02:19:07.820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, nagbabase lang po kami sa dokumento po at sa mga report at sa transaction po. So kapag na-report po sa amin, subject lang po doon sa prioritization po namin, na-analyze po namin and then nagpa-file po kami ng kaso. Hindi po namin tinitignan kung... Kung yun ba ay mataas na tao or maliit na tao, basta po nakita po namin na may kaso na maaaring ma-file, nagpa-file po kami. 02:19:07.820 --> 02:19:08.120 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: In 02:19:08.120 --> 02:19:15.860 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: this case po kay VP Sara, wala po kayo nakikita? Mali? At hindi po ninyo inimbestigahan? Ngayon nyo lang lalaman ng pinatawag na po kayo ng 02:19:15.860 --> 02:19:16.220 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: prosecution? 02:19:16.680 --> 02:19:24.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I am unable to answer that except that part of the document subpoenaed po and we submitted po ay 02:19:25.740 --> 02:19:36.540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: If I read lang po, summary report on VP Duterte po, financial intelligence report on VP Duterte, financial investigation report on Attorney Carpio, and confidential information sharing, Your Honor. 02:19:36.640 --> 02:19:43.780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Before you came here, did you review those documents that they were asking you? Did you have the opportunity to review and look at it? 02:19:44.060 --> 02:19:45.220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor. 02:19:45.420 --> 02:19:54.000 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: And what do you see? What do you see, Attorney, when you saw those documents? You see nothing wrong, sir? 02:19:59.560 --> 02:20:11.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I am unable to provide po my own interpretation po on this. But based on the documents po, there are... Ito po ang nalagay po. 02:20:11.100 --> 02:20:11.420 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: That's what I was 02:20:11.420 --> 02:20:11.960 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: asking you. 02:20:12.000 --> 02:20:12.180 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Do you 02:20:12.180 --> 02:20:12.780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: see any 02:20:12.780 --> 02:20:15.820 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: discrepancies, any problems, Mr. Witness? 02:20:17.830 --> 02:20:27.190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, all I can say po is there are... intelligence report and investigation report already conducted on as indicated. 02:20:27.190 --> 02:20:27.630 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So did you 02:20:27.630 --> 02:20:29.350 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: conduct any investigation already? 02:20:32.900 --> 02:20:41.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I can only testify that we submitted as part of the subpoena the financial intelligence report and financial investigation report. 02:20:41.740 --> 02:20:42.160 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: No further 02:20:42.160 --> 02:20:42.600 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: questions, 02:20:42.860 --> 02:20:43.660 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Mr. Presiding 02:20:43.660 --> 02:20:44.020 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Officer. 02:20:44.100 --> 02:20:44.340 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank 02:20:44.340 --> 02:20:45.140 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: you, Mr. Witness. 02:20:45.140 --> 02:20:45.320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 02:20:45.320 --> 02:20:49.780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Senator Judge Rubin. Senator Judge Robin Padilla is recognized. You have two minutes so you may proceed when you're ready. 02:20:50.730 --> 02:20:52.500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thereafter, we break for lunch. 02:20:52.500 --> 02:20:55.480 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maraming salamat po. Ginuong hukom. 02:20:57.600 --> 02:20:59.620 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bismillah. Magandang tanghali po. 02:21:00.510 --> 02:21:02.990 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Magandang tanghali po, Honorable Senator Judge. 02:21:02.990 --> 02:21:04.470 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kayo po'y taga Bulacan? 02:21:04.470 --> 02:21:05.710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun, Your Honor. 02:21:05.710 --> 02:21:05.930 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Saan po 02:21:05.930 --> 02:21:06.850 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: kayo sa Bulacan? 02:21:07.290 --> 02:21:09.070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa Malolos po, Your Honor. 02:21:09.430 --> 02:21:12.850 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Malolos. Napakagandang lugar po niyan. Diyan po'y unang republika. 02:21:13.610 --> 02:21:14.510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, Your Honor. 02:21:14.670 --> 02:21:30.870 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ako po'y tiga Plaridel. Ang tatay ko po ay diyan pinanganak. At ang lolo ko po'y dating gobernador. ng Bulacan, kaya malapit po ako sa mga taga Bulacan. Opo, kayo po ay bar, top notch, tama po ba? 02:21:31.930 --> 02:21:32.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yan. 02:21:33.790 --> 02:21:36.650 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo, pwede po kayong maging teacher ko. 02:21:37.740 --> 02:21:41.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay na po kung may 02:21:41.180 --> 02:21:41.880 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: tanong 02:21:41.880 --> 02:21:43.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po kayo na masasagot ko po. 02:21:43.340 --> 02:22:02.590 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo, tungkol po dito doon sa Anti-Money Laundering Act. Kasi doon po sa Section 8A. Pwede po bang maipaliwanag niyo sa akin? Kasi dito ang sabi, information, security, and confidentiality. Ano pong pagkakaintindi niyo dito aming kabayan? 02:22:04.090 --> 02:22:18.310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I can only state what the law provides po. Yung security, yung mga nabanggit po ninyo. I don't want to add any other words that may be different 02:22:18.310 --> 02:22:20.410 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: from my interpretation, 02:22:20.690 --> 02:22:21.190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 02:22:21.290 --> 02:22:28.250 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo, tama po bang sabihin natin na dapat ay may absolute confidentiality ng mga records? 02:22:31.460 --> 02:22:42.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung nakalagay po dyan is parang hindi naman po records sa pagkakatanda ko po. Ang nakalagay lang po is mga information received po by the AMLC po. 02:22:43.260 --> 02:22:43.760 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. 02:23:11.730 --> 02:23:37.270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Confidential. Yung pong probable cause po alimbawa po, we need to show to the court po na meron pong probable cause o may probable and reasonable doubt. And we can only do that kung yung information po na nakuha namin ay gagamitin namin ay didisclose namin sa court. So kaya po hindi ko po masabi na absolute po kasi meron nga pong second paragraph that would authorize us to process and submit necessary information po. May 02:23:37.270 --> 02:23:38.700 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: tamang proseso. 02:23:38.700 --> 02:23:42.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po, in accordance din po sa guidelines po namin. 02:23:42.100 --> 02:23:45.100 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Dapat ay yung alinsunod sa batas. 02:23:45.240 --> 02:23:48.980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Batas at implementing rules in mga guidelines po. 02:23:49.020 --> 02:23:49.200 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Due 02:23:49.200 --> 02:23:50.160 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: process. 02:23:50.160 --> 02:23:51.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun, Your Honor. 02:23:51.400 --> 02:23:57.610 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Sa palagay po ba ninyo, hindi kayo naipit dito? Sa pagpunta po nyo dito? 02:23:58.410 --> 02:24:01.710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po, Your Honor, because ako po ay sumunod sa... 02:24:26.680 --> 02:24:27.240 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sa 02:24:27.240 --> 02:24:31.480 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: experience ko po dito, laging nagbibigay ng suggestion. 02:24:33.040 --> 02:24:40.420 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: yung mga agency sa amin. Sa palagay niyo po ba may dapat tayong amendahan sa batas ng AMLAC patungkol sa confidentiality? 02:24:44.120 --> 02:24:53.260 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: May sasuggest niyo po ba sa amin na amendahan nito para hindi po kayo parang niluluto dyan sa loob? Katulad kahapon. 02:24:53.640 --> 02:25:10.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ano naman po, ginagawa ko lang po yung trabaho ko, Your Honor. Pero salamat po. Your Honor, nahitay ko na rin po yung opportunity. Meron po kasi yung mga pending AMLA bills po. So, ito po kasi ay requirement po sa international community. Pero to connect lang po dun sa tanong nyo po. 02:25:11.200 --> 02:25:11.820 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Meron po 02:25:11.820 --> 02:25:17.200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: kaming provision po dun na of course yung confidentiality extend din po dun sa mga tao that we 02:25:17.200 --> 02:25:17.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: are... 02:25:17.240 --> 02:25:19.080 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: So sumasang-ayon po kayo? 02:25:19.080 --> 02:25:20.300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Meron po. 02:25:20.300 --> 02:25:21.740 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ako naman po. Ako po 02:25:21.740 --> 02:25:49.340 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ay hindi abogado, pero ako po ay criminology graduate. Doon naman po ako bumabagsak sa law enforcement. Opo, kasi sa amin, merong apat na bagay. Una, inquiry, investigation, evaluation, then conclusion. Kayo po sa AMLC, nasa na po kayo doon? Nag-inquiry? Parang tapos na po kayo kasi sinasabi nyo kanina. 02:25:51.310 --> 02:25:52.830 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Okay, second round na lang po. 02:25:52.890 --> 02:25:55.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may wind up your question. 02:25:55.130 --> 02:25:57.150 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ah, pwede po. Salamat po. 02:25:59.310 --> 02:26:06.860 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kasi po, narinig ko kanina, nandun na kayo sa investigation. Tama po ba? Natapos po ba yung investigation? 02:26:06.860 --> 02:26:08.580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masagot, Your Honor. 02:26:08.580 --> 02:26:08.940 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: O ano 02:26:08.940 --> 02:26:12.020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: lang po yung nasa records po, na nasabit po na? 02:26:12.040 --> 02:26:22.470 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo, kasi na malinaw kanina, parang nasabi niyo po, nasa point pa lang ng investigation. Kasi kanina parang nabasa niyo po doon investigation? 02:26:22.470 --> 02:26:22.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nung 02:26:22.550 --> 02:26:33.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: sinopina po kami yung as of the time of the supina po sa amin ng court, eto po yung mga records na naka-include po in relation po doon sa STRs at CTRs po. 02:26:33.910 --> 02:26:33.990 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: So 02:26:33.990 --> 02:26:45.810 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: investigation po? Wala pa po kayo sa evaluation and conclusion? Kasi parang ang alam ko po sa AMLC, pagka meron na kayong conclusion, pwede nyo nang i-freeze yung assets, di ba po? 02:26:46.730 --> 02:26:57.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masagot, Your Honor, any other action po na wala po or hindi po namin na-submit or wala po dito. Hindi po po ma-testify po, Your Honor. Hindi 02:26:57.490 --> 02:26:59.610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ko 02:26:59.610 --> 02:27:05.290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po ma-disclose po, Your Honor, hindi po siya kasama dun sa kung ano po yung nandito po. Pero 02:27:05.290 --> 02:27:10.270 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: andyan po, investigation. Nabasa ko kanina, narinig ko, sinabi niyo, investigation eh. 02:27:10.270 --> 02:27:11.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Oo po, yung mga documents po. 02:27:11.790 --> 02:27:15.190 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Nasa pangalawa pa lang, wala pang evaluation, wala pang conclusion. 02:27:37.850 --> 02:27:42.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly clarify, you cannot divulge. Hindi mo pwedeng ilahat. 02:27:42.940 --> 02:27:43.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo. 02:27:43.340 --> 02:27:44.600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kung meron o wala. 02:27:44.600 --> 02:27:44.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo. 02:27:44.920 --> 02:27:47.100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kasi hindi yun sa clown ng sinapina. 02:27:47.160 --> 02:28:26.460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po yun sa clown ng supina at meron din po mga rules po na hindi po namin na nagbabawalan po kami i-disclose po. Alimbawa po yung nabanggit ko po kahapon yung bank inquiry rules ng Court of Appeals. Pag po nag-file po kami ng bank inquiry rules, bank inquiry po sa Court of Appeals, may nakalagay po na provision doon na we cannot disclose it. If we disclose it, that would constitute Contempt of Court. So yung may mga ganun po na legal impediment or maharang sa akin legally to disclose po. So we cannot disclose po. Una po, ito lang po yung na-include po sa supina. Then mayroon po mga rules, laws, other rules po that we consider po. 02:28:26.740 --> 02:28:34.320 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ang tanong ko lang po, simple lang kabayan, yung po bang hawak yung papel ay ano po yan ba? Ano po yung nasupina sa inyo? 02:28:34.500 --> 02:28:36.840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang sinupina po sa amin, Your Honor, 02:28:40.510 --> 02:28:46.650 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kanina may nabasa po kayo parang investigation yung sinagit niyo kay Senator Erwin Tulfo? 02:28:46.930 --> 02:28:47.870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your 02:28:47.870 --> 02:28:51.210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. What we submitted po are... 02:28:53.100 --> 02:29:04.260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Covered transaction reports, suspicious transaction reports on VP Duterte at Atty. Carpio, summary report on VP Duterte with a barcode, financial intelligence report on VP Duterte 02:29:04.260 --> 02:29:04.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: with 02:29:04.560 --> 02:29:09.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: AMLC reference, financial investigation report at Atty. Carpio, and confidential information sharing, Your Honor. 02:29:10.000 --> 02:29:16.960 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Okay po. Hanggang doon na lang po yung sinasabi niyo. Bali, ang tanong ko lang po kasi, sumusunod po ba kayo doon sa apat? 02:29:19.070 --> 02:29:41.800 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Inquiry? Investigation? Evaluation and conclusion. Yun lang naman po. Wala naman po kung ibang tinatanong. Kung sumusunod po, hindi po... Kasi lahat po, lahat ng klase ng law enforcement, sa buong mundo, yun po ang dinadaana. Inquiry, investigation, conclusion, evaluation and conclusion. Yun lang naman po. 02:29:43.260 --> 02:29:48.260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Proceso po kami, maari pong kahawig po nun pero hindi ko po alam exactly kung ano po yun. 02:29:48.260 --> 02:29:50.420 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Okay na po, kahawig na po yun. 02:29:50.420 --> 02:29:52.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Maari pong kahawig nung ano po. 02:29:52.340 --> 02:29:58.200 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sa ano na lang po, ito parang manifestation na lang po itong akin na ginoon po po. 02:30:00.700 --> 02:30:34.060 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo, sana po maasabi lang po dun sa ating mga kasama na tutal hindi naman po nabanggit dito yung tungkol sa tapang at malasakit. Hinihingi ko po na huwag naman po kaming madamay lahat kasi kasama kami dyan eh. Hindi naman po yan nabanggit dito sa Korte, binanggit po yan ni former Senator Trillanes sa hindi sa Korting ito. So, hinihingi ko lang po sa mga kasama ko na pagka generalize po natin yan na tapang at malasakit, kasama po kami dyan. Wala po ako natanggap na pera kahit nasihin ko sa mga in-check. Yun lamang po. Maraming salamat po. 02:30:59.090 --> 02:31:01.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair declares our lunch recess. 03:38:23.890 --> 03:38:30.490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ronel, naunawaan po ninyo na patuloy kayo magbibigyan ng inyong testimonya base sa naunan niyo pong pinanumpaan kahapon. 03:38:31.350 --> 03:38:32.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Naunawaan po, Your Honor. 03:38:32.550 --> 03:38:33.030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kunti na lang 03:38:33.030 --> 03:38:55.150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ito tulad ng sinabi ko kanina, Atty. Ronel. We are on the second round of interjections by Senator Judges. While we are awaiting, apologies, I'm sound present. While we are waiting, Senator Pia Cayetano, if she will avail of the second round, Chair would like to recognize Senator Judge Sotto. 03:38:57.780 --> 03:38:58.220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 03:38:58.220 --> 03:39:00.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may proceed, sir, when you're ready. You have two minutes. 03:39:08.530 --> 03:39:21.000 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, but I will probably no longer avail of the second round. Some of the questions that I wanted to ask were asked by my colleagues earlier. Perhaps just a... 03:39:25.710 --> 03:39:29.570 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Sabihin hindi ako. Baka sabihin hindi ako impartial. 03:39:32.200 --> 03:39:35.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Sotto. Or I don't know if I should say thank you. 03:39:37.550 --> 03:39:44.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thanks from Attorney Ronel. It shortens his time on the witness stand. Senator Judge Hontiveros is next. 03:39:45.880 --> 03:39:47.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, ma'am, when you're ready. 03:39:50.420 --> 03:39:52.740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Oh nga pala, Ronel, kumain ka na. Kumain ka. 03:39:52.740 --> 03:39:55.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi uli. Kumagat lang pong SkyFlakes. 03:39:56.730 --> 03:39:57.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 03:39:57.740 --> 03:40:02.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Basta nagagahan ka kanina. Senator Judge Risa, you may proceed when you're ready. 03:40:02.760 --> 03:40:04.400 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. 03:40:05.910 --> 03:40:08.650 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Atty. Buenaventura. 03:40:08.650 --> 03:40:09.190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes 03:40:09.190 --> 03:40:10.670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po, Your Honor, Senator Judge. 03:40:10.970 --> 03:40:11.830 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Magandang hapon po. 03:40:11.950 --> 03:40:12.450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Magandang hapon po. 03:40:13.170 --> 03:40:24.090 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Tama po ba na yung essence nga ng money laundering ay precisely gusto pong itago ang pinanggalingan ng maruming pera? 03:40:25.540 --> 03:40:26.680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, Your Honor. 03:40:27.030 --> 03:40:29.350 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Kaya po tawag po natin dun ay paglalaba. 03:40:30.300 --> 03:40:37.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In Tagalog po, sa pagkaintindi ko po, your honor. 03:40:37.440 --> 03:40:38.280 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So 03:40:38.760 --> 03:40:58.570 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: yung 319 million pesos na remittances mula sa China ay yung lamang pong inireport sa AMLC. Ibig sabihin, pwede bang mas malaki pa ang pinadalang pera mula sa China sa mga kumpanya? Tama po ba yun? 03:41:00.640 --> 03:41:06.760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, hindi ko po masabi pero ang nakita lang po namin ay kung ano lang po nasa records, Your Honor. 03:41:10.210 --> 03:41:16.210 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Kung ano yung nasa records dahil yun ang mga iniulat sa inyo bilang either suspicious or covered transaction records. 03:41:16.210 --> 03:41:20.710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung meron pa man po na wala doon, hindi po namin makikita po yun, Your Honor. 03:41:20.890 --> 03:41:35.750 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. Tapos, well, ito pong 319 million pesos mula sa China. Doon sa ang AMLC reports, hindi po naman yun yung paulit-ulit na pag-rollover ng time deposits, di po ba? 03:41:37.300 --> 03:42:11.400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung nasa table 5 po namin, hindi po siya time deposit po, Your Honor. Ito po ay base po doon sa letter ng prosecution asking for the inward remittances po. So, nung hinahanap, nung ginawa po namin yung tabular summary po, Tinignan po namin kung anong code yung pertaining to inward remittances. At yung po yung ginamit po namin dito, Your Honor. So hindi po siya at unique transaction po siya. So magkakaiba po ito. Hindi po siya yung rollover po. 03:42:11.920 --> 03:42:19.720 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So magkakaiba po. Unique at hindi pare-pareho yung sinasabing rollover ng time deposits at yung namang masasabing remittances. 03:42:20.020 --> 03:42:25.480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As far as in our records. As we understood it, Your Honor, yes po. As 03:42:25.480 --> 03:42:26.860 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: you understand your records. 03:42:26.860 --> 03:42:27.220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Opo. 03:42:27.220 --> 03:42:37.560 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Eh yung, yung milyones po na di umano'y galing kay Samuel Uy, hindi rin naman po yun rollover ng mga time deposits, tama po ba? 03:42:38.460 --> 03:42:42.960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, apologies po, I can't specifically recall po yun. 03:42:44.540 --> 03:42:47.880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: On that one po, Your Honor. 03:42:48.240 --> 03:42:48.620 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright. 03:42:50.610 --> 03:43:08.850 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Then, Nabanggit din po na may ilang suspicious transaction reports na di umano may connection sa drug trafficking. Ayon sa reports nyo, sino-sino pong mga tao di umano ang involved sa mga reported transactions na yon? 03:43:09.650 --> 03:43:15.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, apologies po, hindi ko po maalala unless I'll be confronted with the record. Apologies po. 03:43:15.750 --> 03:43:26.860 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright. So, hindi nyo rin po masasagot kung itanong ko na Magkano, di umano, ang transactions na may reports na related sa illegal drugs? 03:43:27.560 --> 03:43:31.980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala lang po ako, wala po sa akin yung record, Your Honor. Hindi ko po masagot on the spot, Your Honor. 03:43:32.160 --> 03:43:37.200 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright, pero kung mapasakamay ninyo yung records, masasagot po nyo dito? 03:43:37.440 --> 03:43:37.460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ay, kung 03:43:37.460 --> 03:43:41.320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: hanapin lang po at maituro po, mababanggit ko po. Ah, 03:43:41.380 --> 03:43:44.760 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: kaya nyo po bang hanapin during this trial day? 03:43:46.640 --> 03:43:55.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung yun po yung mga pinabasa po na hindi ko po maalala ko ng defense or ng prosecution po at maituturo lang po ulit yun base po dun sa kung anong pinabasa ko. Kung ma 03:43:55.440 --> 03:44:02.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: -pinpoint naman po, masasabi ko naman po. Based on records lang din po. 03:44:02.170 --> 03:44:28.150 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat, Atty. Buenaventura. Siguro, Mr. President, bago matapos itong trial day, baka pwede pong ipakita ulit sa witness yung record na yon para lang ma-on the record magkano di umano yung transactions na may reports kaugnay ng illegal drugs. Ulitin ko na lang po bago ako matapos, Atty. Buenaventura. So, ano pong mga aksyon kung mayroon na ang ginawa ng AMLC tungkol sa mga reports na yon? 03:44:30.400 --> 03:44:45.160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, hindi ko po maalala kung ano pong reports po lahat yun. Pero ang meron po kami at yun lang pong nasako po nung supina po natin na sinabit po, yung po mga financial intelligence report at financial investigation report po that we submitted po, Your Honor. 03:44:45.460 --> 03:44:52.040 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright. And hindi nyo lang makonfirm sa amin kung itong mga reports ay bunga ng mga investigasyon ng council. 03:44:52.480 --> 03:44:55.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po ma-divulge po o bunyag po, Your Honor. 03:44:55.840 --> 03:45:06.270 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright. May nabanggit din pong suspicious transaction reports na posibleng related sa graft and corruption. Magkano naman po di umano yung iyon? 03:45:06.510 --> 03:45:15.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa parehong kadahilanan po, Your Honor, unless makonfront po ulit ako nung document po so that I can answer that po, Your Honor. Pasensya na po. 03:45:15.970 --> 03:45:22.890 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: It's alright po. Tulad nung halaga di umano ng reports related sa illegal drugs. Apo. Okay po. And then... 03:45:24.940 --> 03:45:54.430 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Siguro huling tanong na sa ngayon. Yung halaga po pinagsama ng covered transaction reports at saka yung suspicious transaction reports kina VP Duterte at Atty. Carpio. Yun lamang po yung mga diumanong kaduda-duda o sakop sa cloud na ni-report sa AMLC. Hindi po yung kompletong record ng kanilang buong financial activity, inflows and outflows. Tama po ba? 03:45:55.030 --> 03:46:06.250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung po na-report sa amin, yung covert transaction at saspecious transaction po. Kung meron nun po na hindi pa pasok doon sa dalawang uri ng transaction po, hindi po yun maire-report sa amin po. 03:46:06.450 --> 03:46:29.510 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Right. And then, approaching that question from another angle, just winding up, Mr. Presiding Officer, kung meron namang pong gustong umiwas sa AMLC o sa pansin ng AMLC, pwede pong ibabasa 500,000 pesos ang halaga ng transaction, di po ba? Para hindi nga po mapansin ng AMLC. 03:46:30.490 --> 03:46:31.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Para hindi po ma-report? 03:46:31.890 --> 03:46:32.490 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Para hindi ma 03:46:32.490 --> 03:46:33.550 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: -report ng covered transactions. 03:46:33.550 --> 03:47:12.830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun, Your Honor. Kasi po hindi po siya sasaklaw dun sa covered transaction report. Kaya lang po, meron din po isang circumstance po sa suspicious transaction report na kapag na based po dun sa over... circumstances po, it appears na the client is trying to structure his transaction so as not to be reported, subject of the reporting under the law, matitreat naman po siya. Hindi po as covered transaction, kundi po suspicious po. So pero, yun nga po, subject din po yung sa checking din po ng covered person po. So makikita pa rin po, nare-report naman din po yun. 03:47:13.030 --> 03:47:39.640 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. So kahit pa po maiwas sa pansin ng AMLC or ng covered person bilang covered transaction report. Kung may mapansin pong circumstance na parang sinusubukang i-structure yung transactions, pwede pa rin pong masakop ng isang suspicious transaction report. Alright. Marami salamat po muli, Atty. Buenaventura. Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. 03:47:39.640 --> 03:47:39.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 03:47:39.960 --> 03:47:44.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Sen. Judge Rison Tivero. Sen. Judge Raffy Tulfo is recognized. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready. 03:47:51.050 --> 03:48:00.550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Raffy, we shall have Senator Judge Lacson, thereafter Pangilinan, thereafter Villanueva, thereafter the Senate President, then finally Senator Judge Padilla. 03:48:16.450 --> 03:48:29.150 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, ulitin ko yung tanong kanina. Hindi masyadong naging klaro sa akin at maybe sa inyo. Kailan kayo gumagawa ng investigasyon once na nalaman nyo na yung isang account ay may suspicious transaction? 03:48:31.270 --> 03:48:47.110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ano naman po yun, Your Honor? So, pag na-report po sa amin, meron lang po kaming prioritization po, given nga po na maliit lang po yung ahensya at yung resources po. So, namimili po kami base po dun sa mga kung ano po yung ipaprioritize na investigahan po. 03:48:47.230 --> 03:48:49.430 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi mention maliliit. Paano kung malalaki? 03:48:51.660 --> 03:48:56.660 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: accounts at malalaki ang transaksyon na perang lamabas-pasok. So, what do you do? 03:48:56.880 --> 03:49:13.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasama pa rin po yun sa prioritization po. Hindi naman po porket maliit or malaki yung pera. Yun lang po yung basihan namin. So, halimbawa po, if the crime po ay halimbawa ay terrorism financing, so, mas priority po namin yung kahit po mas maliit ng content dahil may national security concern po. 03:49:14.060 --> 03:49:16.720 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kaya nga, what do you do? What kind of investigation do you conduct? 03:49:17.380 --> 03:49:38.020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: After po noon, so, we analyze po the transactions po. and then at least dun sa initial transaction na analysis po kung meron po kaming makita na medyo that parang kailangan investigahan pa po ng mas detalyado i-endorse na po namin yun. sa kabilang grupo na mag-i-investigate na po talaga. 03:49:38.040 --> 03:49:39.120 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: At ano yung kabilang grupo? 03:49:39.500 --> 03:49:42.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa internal unit lang po yun sa AMLC. 03:49:42.140 --> 03:49:42.940 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kaya nga, and then anong 03:49:42.940 --> 03:49:43.800 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: ginagawa ng internal unit? 03:49:44.020 --> 03:50:18.820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung unit po na yun, sila po yung nag-conduct po ng full-blown investigation na po. Sila po yung kung kailangan po nilang kumuha pa ng mga detalye sa halimbawa po sa SEC, ng mga corporation. ng mga stockholders po kung kailangan po kumuha ng may ari-arian ba to sa land registration authority. Kung kailangan po mag-coordinate sa law enforcement kasi po kung nakita po na may predicate yung unlawful activity po ay halimbawa po kidnapping for ransom so we coordinate po with PNP po. So kasama na po yun doon. Bubuhin na po yung kaso po. 03:50:18.820 --> 03:50:19.240 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, 03:50:19.260 --> 03:50:22.640 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: pag nagawa yun lahat na na nabanggit mo, anong sunod na course of action? 03:50:22.900 --> 03:50:31.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang gagawin po namin pag nagawa na po yun lahat, Kung kulang pa rin po at kailangan pong pa-open yung particular na banko po. 03:50:31.200 --> 03:50:32.240 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kung hindi na kulang, nagawa 03:50:32.240 --> 03:50:33.140 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: na po lahat. 03:50:33.140 --> 03:51:08.370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Magpo-file na po kami ng tatlong senaryo po. Una... Pari pong depende po sa ebidensya at sapat na po para merong proof beyond reasonable doubt na tingin namin, pa-file po ng criminal na kaso po. Yung pangalawa po is kung hindi po sapat yun pero pasok po doon sa preponderance of evidence na tingin namin kasampas sa court, yung kaso lang po ay civil, po-forfeit lang po yung proceeds. Yung pangatlo po is... Kung base po doon sa nakalap na ebidensya, wala po talagang kulang po. 03:51:08.370 --> 03:51:09.890 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi, pag may nakalap na ebidensya. 03:51:09.890 --> 03:51:10.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah, pag meron lang po. 03:51:10.550 --> 03:51:11.330 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Yun dalawa lang po. 03:51:11.330 --> 03:51:12.030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yun dalawa po. 03:51:12.030 --> 03:51:12.350 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi 03:51:12.350 --> 03:51:15.610 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: niyo, hindi kayo puputusin para mag-file ng freeze order? 03:51:15.810 --> 03:51:17.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ay, part po yun ng investigation. 03:51:17.970 --> 03:51:18.230 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, 03:51:18.310 --> 03:51:42.290 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: sa kaso dito sa... Mga accounts ni VP Sara at sa mga kumpanya kung saan nagmamayari itong si Atty. Hans Carpio. And paulit-ulit na nangyayari itong STR. At I'm sure nag-investigate kayo. So wala man lang naging nagbunga sa ginawa niyo mga pag-imbestiga? Or you just sat down there at dahil natakot kayo sapagkat nasa pwesto yung mga taong yun at that time? Kung ordinary na tao pa siguro baka ipit na yan left and right. 03:51:42.750 --> 03:52:02.290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, yung mababangit ko lang po is yung pong naging saklaw po nung supina po, meron po kaming mga sinabit ng mga report po on this one po. Kung ano man po yung iba pa pong aksyon, hindi ko na po ma-divulge po or masabi po sa kadahilanan nga po na if meron man po, may mga other... 03:52:02.290 --> 03:52:02.790 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: No, why 03:52:02.790 --> 03:52:27.810 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: can you not? Samantal pag sa ordinary mga depositor, may mga... Orin na rin ang tao na may bank account na meron kayo suspicious sa transaction na nakita. E pinapadali nyo natin ng sulat and there are times na pinupunta nyo pa. I don't know. Tell me. Pero pag dito mukhang wala kayong ginagawa. Puro at saka very evasive ka sa mga sagot. Policy lang itong tinatanong ko, Mr. Witness. Walang tinatanong tungkol sa talagang anong nangyari sa ginawa niya. 03:52:29.270 --> 03:52:39.410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In policy lang, yun nga po Your Honor, yung pong may mga halimbawa po nag-file po kami sa Court of Appeals for bank inquiry po, may nakalagay po kasi sa rules nila. 03:52:39.410 --> 03:52:42.010 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So, ginawa nyo ba ito? 03:52:42.010 --> 03:52:43.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasama po doon na 03:52:43.010 --> 03:52:43.290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: we 03:52:43.290 --> 03:52:50.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: cannot disclose anything po halimbawa po kung nag-file man po kami or hindi po. Otherwise, constitutes contempt of court po kasi yun, Your Honor. 03:52:50.330 --> 03:52:52.490 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, so hindi mo masasabi pwede nag-file ka o hindi? 03:52:52.490 --> 03:52:52.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi 03:52:52.750 --> 03:52:56.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ko po ma-evolgar po kung meron man po or masabi po. Tama po yun, Your Honor. 03:52:57.030 --> 03:53:06.570 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Pero, Alam naman natin lahat na napakarami ng STR o marami naka-invest na naka-plug down itong account nito for several years. So hindi ko pa rin masabi kung meron ba kayong pinahal o wala. Tama? Mali? 03:53:06.570 --> 03:53:06.710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi 03:53:06.710 --> 03:53:10.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ko lang po masabi. May divulge po, Your Honor. 03:53:10.550 --> 03:53:19.470 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Meron bang ginawang paliwanag ng Cale88 tungkol sa mga STR sa mga accounts nila? 03:53:21.160 --> 03:53:37.930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sal... Your Honor, pag po... Yung covered person po, pag nagre-report po nung transaction, hindi naman po nila ini-inform yung, bawal po nilang inform actually po yung client nila na ni-reportan sila ng covered or suspicious transaction. 03:53:40.040 --> 03:54:04.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kapag po finailan po ng or papailan po ng STR po or CTR yung client po ng isang covered person, nasa batas po ng AMLA na bawal po silang i-inform or na o ipapailan namin kayo kasi kumbaga tawag po doon tipping off, bawal po silang matip off na papailan na kayo na or finailan sila ng STR or CTR. 03:54:04.140 --> 03:54:09.240 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Pero meron ba insidente na pinapatay nyo ng sulat ang isang accounts o account holder na may mga 03:54:12.220 --> 03:54:13.020 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Transaction suspicious? 03:54:14.540 --> 03:54:15.400 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Your contact? 03:54:15.400 --> 03:54:34.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa AMLC po. Sa amin po, hindi na po. Kung meron po kami, sa procedure lang po ito, Your Honor. Sa amin po, kung meron man po na mapapadala kami, hindi na po sa amin. Ibig sabihin po, court na po yun. Kung baga nag-file na po kami, may makareceive na po sila ng court order or kung ano man po. 03:54:35.360 --> 03:54:44.000 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, Mr. Witness, base sa summary na ibinigay ng AMLC, nasa 1.254 billion ano ang kabuhang transaction involving Cale88, tama? 03:54:45.870 --> 03:54:47.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Check-in lang po, Your Honor. Apologies. 03:54:49.660 --> 03:54:54.100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 1.254736297.08, Your Honor. 03:54:54.420 --> 03:54:54.760 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Billion. 03:54:55.200 --> 03:54:55.940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Billion, yes. 03:54:56.060 --> 03:55:05.820 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, out of this 1.2 billion, 776.6 million yung kabuhang halaga na pumasok sa Cale88, tama? 03:55:06.200 --> 03:55:06.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung inflow po, 03:55:07.080 --> 03:55:11.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yes po, 776,643,950.36, your honor. 03:55:11.500 --> 03:55:25.500 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Correct. So, kung iba bang ito sa mga submitted audited financial statements ng Cale88 kung saan diniklala itong lugi daw ito mula 2022 haga 2024, right? 03:55:26.310 --> 03:55:27.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po akong personal 03:55:27.530 --> 03:55:27.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: knowledge. 03:55:27.970 --> 03:55:28.210 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sige. 03:55:28.430 --> 03:55:28.990 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: At 03:55:28.990 --> 03:55:31.350 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: in fact, itong 2025 lamang, ito ay 03:55:31.350 --> 03:55:37.850 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: kumita raw ng halagang 375,398 lamang. So maybe you don't have that record. 03:55:37.850 --> 03:55:38.730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po. 03:55:38.730 --> 03:55:50.990 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Now, mukhang napakalaki ng disparity ng pumasok na pera sa kumpanya tsaka sa kubuhang kinita nito kada taon. So hindi nagkakabanggaan. 03:55:50.990 --> 03:55:53.510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Again, wala po akong personal manager. 03:55:53.510 --> 03:55:56.950 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, ang tanong ko na, last na lang, Mr. Presiding Officer. Yung bell, medyo... 03:55:56.950 --> 03:55:58.150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may continue 03:55:58.150 --> 03:56:00.150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and wind up, Senator Judge Raffy. 03:56:00.150 --> 03:56:06.790 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Yes, sir. So, kinukonsidera din ba ng AMLA ang mga financial statements ng mga kumpanya sa inyong mga pag-imbestiga? 03:56:07.090 --> 03:56:10.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As long as we're able to get po and available po, yes po. 03:56:10.990 --> 03:56:14.150 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Witness. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 03:56:14.150 --> 03:56:14.550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 03:56:14.550 --> 03:56:20.100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Senator Judge Raffy. Senator Judge Lacson, you may proceed, sir. You have two minutes when you're ready. 03:56:20.100 --> 03:56:20.540 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank 03:56:20.540 --> 03:56:20.700 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: you, 03:56:20.720 --> 03:56:20.900 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Mr. 03:56:21.380 --> 03:56:25.900 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Specialling Officer. Good afternoon again, Atty. Ronel. 03:56:26.120 --> 03:56:27.480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Good afternoon, honorable Senator. 03:56:28.160 --> 03:56:32.280 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Irarapido ko na para pumasok sa 2 minutes. Pakite-take notes lang yung mga tanong ko. Tatlo lang. 03:56:32.520 --> 03:56:33.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay po, your 03:56:33.080 --> 03:56:33.400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: honor. 03:56:33.400 --> 03:56:43.260 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Una, ano yung trigger mechanism sa AMLC para mag-file ng ex-parte petisyon sa Court of Appeals para sa pre-order? 03:56:44.330 --> 03:56:45.610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Probable cause po, your honor. 03:56:47.040 --> 03:56:52.780 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Probable cause or docket ng predicate crime? 03:56:53.380 --> 03:56:55.040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasama na din po yun, Your Honor. 03:56:55.200 --> 03:56:59.960 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Not probable cause, but pag-docketed, pwede na yan. 03:57:02.120 --> 03:57:15.980 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Anyway, sunod na tanong. Baka abutin tayong two minutes. Kindly enlighten us [unclear] yung court sa difference between express or explicit authority at saka yung implied authority. Follow-up doon. 03:57:16.550 --> 03:57:26.840 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ano yung legal effect ng implied authority? Kasi bigat din ba ng express authority yun? Related yun sa tanong ni Atty. Mark kahapon. Tatandaan mo? 03:57:27.440 --> 03:57:28.580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Patungkol saan po? 03:57:28.680 --> 03:57:31.220 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yung express authority against implied authority. 03:57:33.560 --> 03:57:36.080 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Anyway, mamiya ulit. Ito yung pangatlo. 03:57:36.520 --> 03:57:37.200 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Did 03:57:37.400 --> 03:57:48.330 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: I hear you right na on the basis of an adverse news report? Pwede na kayong nag-deklara na suspicious yung transaction. 03:57:49.150 --> 03:58:15.090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po kami, your honor, yung nagde-declare po kung suspicious yung covered person po. But the covered person pa rin po, hindi lang naman po sa adverse news, they have to check din po yung mismo KYC, yung account po mismo, monitoring yung transaction nila. So based po dun sa mga internal na pag-check po, they have to consider all other matters po. Kasama na rin po yung sa adverse news po. 03:58:15.230 --> 03:58:20.420 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: So yung comment na binabasa nyo kahapon na News reports, hindi sa inyo galing yun? 03:58:20.420 --> 03:58:21.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po sa amin galing. 03:58:21.380 --> 03:58:22.140 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: As a covered person? 03:58:22.300 --> 03:58:23.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Covered person po yun, Your Honor. 03:58:23.560 --> 03:58:40.110 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Okay. So yung sunod, yung, anyway, yung trigger, ang pag-alam nyo, probable cause. Ang sinabi kasi ng inyong predecessor sa amin, basta madakit lang. Alam mo, may nag-file ng complaint, pwede na kayo mag-ex-party. So which is which? 03:58:40.430 --> 03:58:50.280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, sa under the law po, pag... As far as I recall po, subject po dun sa kung ano yung nasa actual na batas po. If we'll be filing... 03:58:51.850 --> 03:59:12.410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: bank inquiry or freeze order po, there must be probable cause that the accounts are in any way related to money laundering. So yung probable cause po, such facts and circumstances that would warrant a reasonably prudent man to show that there is indeed money laundering, that the accounts are related to money laundering. So kasama po doon sa 03:59:12.410 --> 03:59:13.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: pag-determine po nung 03:59:15.370 --> 03:59:40.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Facts and Circumstances na maaaring related to money laundering ay kung may na-file ba na kaso, yung transactions niya, pati yung profile po niya. So, yun po yung kumbaga kaya po nag-iimbestiga po. And then, pag nabuo po yun, kasama po kung siyempre kailangan po namin ng crime po, ang unlawful activity, kasi the definition po mismo is it should come from unlawful activity. 03:59:40.490 --> 03:59:41.180 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Correct. 03:59:41.180 --> 03:59:48.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kaya kailangan po namin ng may unlawful activity. So baka hindi ko po masagot kung ano po yung nasabi ng mga nauna po sa akin. 03:59:48.560 --> 03:59:48.800 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Attorney, 03:59:48.960 --> 03:59:59.960 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: so now I'm confused kasi galing kay Executive Director Matthew yung pinangagalingan ko. Kasi tinanong ko when we were investigating yung flood control, tinanong ko sa kanya yan, what would... 04:00:16.220 --> 04:00:44.450 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: We ask law enforcement to immediately file kung kaya na mag-file kasi yun ang mag-trigger kagad ng ex-party petition. Now, what you're saying is kailangan mag-establish pa ng probable cause. Ang alam ko sa probable cause, at least yung dating practice, ito yung threshold ng DOJ eh, ng prosecution eh, para mag-file information. But now, tinas yung threshold, di ba? Reasonable certainty of conviction na. 04:00:44.690 --> 04:00:46.230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: For criminal cases po. 04:00:46.230 --> 04:00:46.770 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yeah, I know. 04:00:46.770 --> 04:00:51.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Pero for freeze order lang po at bank inquiry po, probable cause po ay nasa batas pa rin po. 04:00:51.810 --> 04:00:53.930 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pero kailangan may unlawful activity na papile. 04:00:55.820 --> 04:01:01.580 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: You cannot file money laundering offense without any unlawful activity. Na-discuss na natin yan eh. 04:01:01.680 --> 04:02:16.640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Opo. Okay. Your Honor, to clarify lang po. So baka lang po iba yung pag... Hindi ko po kasi masagot kung ano po yung nabanggit po nung predecessor ko po. I also respect Executive Director Batu, my former boss po. So yung sa akin lang po na pagkakaintindi ko po ay... Kailangan lang po, yung probable cause po, syempre kasama po doon na may unlawful activity. Sa batas naman po at sa mga IRR, pati sabi rin po ng Supreme Court, yung pong unlawful activity can run parallel po doon sa money laundering. Pwede pong mauna, pwede pong mag-run parallel po. So, maaari po na sabay po namin nag-iimbestiga nung law enforcement po. Nag-file, mauna lang kami ng file pero nag-file din sila. So, pwede rin po na ganun. Basta po, yung ebidensya po sa mata po ng isang reasonable na tao po or ati sa court po, mabuo na kahit wala pa pong na-file na sakto na kaso pero nakita na yung ebidensya mo kompleto na talaga lahat, ipa-file na lang din. Pero maaari din po kaming mauna kasi allowed naman po na mag-parallel po, Your Honor. 04:02:17.840 --> 04:02:19.880 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: With all due respect, thank you for the confusion. 04:02:21.060 --> 04:02:25.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies po, your honor. Apologies po. Apologies po. If I may po, I... 04:02:25.180 --> 04:02:38.620 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Doon na lang tayo sa express versus implied. Kasi ang binigay sa inyo, sa understanding ko, sa sagot nyo kahapon, meron kayo implied authority kasi covered kayo ng issuance ng council, diba? 04:02:39.360 --> 04:02:42.520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, your honor. Ah, yung sa authority po to testify po. Ang 04:02:42.520 --> 04:02:42.920 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: hawak 04:02:42.920 --> 04:02:43.140 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: nyo, 04:02:43.160 --> 04:02:44.600 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: implied, diba? 04:02:45.020 --> 04:02:46.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Express authority po. 04:02:46.920 --> 04:02:47.800 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ang express 04:02:47.800 --> 04:02:57.100 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: is clear. Saka direct. Diba? Yung tinatanong na ito ni Mark eh. Ikaw ba pagpunta mo rito meron kang binigay na authority. Parang case to case. 04:02:57.360 --> 04:02:57.800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay. 04:02:58.140 --> 04:03:03.100 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ang hawak mo sa ginagawa mo implied authority kasi inferred na yun eh. 04:03:05.410 --> 04:03:08.130 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you again for the confusion. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 04:03:09.790 --> 04:03:11.810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies po. 04:03:11.810 --> 04:03:23.370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's okay, Attorney Ronel. You're entitled to a different opinion. Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes. 04:03:24.390 --> 04:03:25.030 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you. 04:03:35.150 --> 04:03:41.360 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: You wanted to avoid or you made double counting? You said that if you recall. 04:03:41.720 --> 04:03:43.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Totoo po, yes po your honor. 04:03:43.220 --> 04:03:45.460 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So ano ibig sabihin nung avoiding double counting? 04:03:47.160 --> 04:04:22.790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your honor, so nung hinanda po namin yung tabular summary po, meron po kasing mga entries po na na-report, CTR and STR po na Pareho pong na-report. Halimbawa po, halimbawa lang po ito yung nandun po sa Annex A po. Yung may entry po na pertaining po parehas kay VP at saka kay Atty. Manassas Carpio. Tapos may amount po parehas. So kumbaga po, yung isang transaction po na-report sa amin, dalawang beses nung covered person, hindi dahil 04:04:25.200 --> 04:04:48.380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Magkaiba ng transaction kundi magkaiba po kasi yung nire-report po nila. So yung isa po halimbawa si Vice President po, yung isa po si Atty. Carpio. Pero ninote po namin dito sa record namin na hindi po namin yung binilang for purposes po kung ano yung total. So meron pong entry halimbawa po sa Annex A na less entries appearing in both extracts. Tapos meron po kaming note po doon na 04:04:50.240 --> 04:05:09.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasi ano po yung report? Jointly held accounts. So, nung prepare po namin yung report, in-ensure po namin na to be as factually and accurately as possible, iniwasan po namin na may double counting. At kung may dalawang report man, we indicate it po para po guided po yung Honorable Court po. 04:05:09.940 --> 04:05:16.920 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, doon sa guidance for the Honorable Court na in-indicate ninyo na may double entry or may... 04:05:16.920 --> 04:05:19.760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Double reports po. 04:05:20.080 --> 04:05:21.780 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Magkano yun? Would you have it? 04:05:22.260 --> 04:05:30.280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Main naka-indicate po dito yun, at least sa Annex A na table, the amount po is 81 million. 04:05:30.280 --> 04:05:31.320 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So okay, did 04:05:31.320 --> 04:05:35.220 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: you reconcile yung mga sinasabi niyong may double entry dun sa total? 04:05:35.760 --> 04:05:37.820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah yes po, naka ano po yan. 04:05:37.820 --> 04:05:50.020 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So ang sinasabi ninyo ay dahil tiniyak niyong macheck yung mga double entry, most likely, doon sa final summing up ninyo, wala nang double entry? 04:05:50.140 --> 04:05:51.280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala na po, wala na po, Your Honor. 04:05:51.420 --> 04:05:56.600 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At yung figure na yun is inflow as well as outflow? 04:05:57.560 --> 04:05:57.960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 04:05:58.040 --> 04:05:58.600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 04:05:58.600 --> 04:06:03.300 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, so yung sinasabi kasing dahil double entry, lo lobo. 04:06:05.480 --> 04:06:08.460 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, lumobo ba? 04:06:08.860 --> 04:06:11.520 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: O binawasin ninyo yung double entry? 04:06:11.520 --> 04:06:12.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang 04:06:12.000 --> 04:06:30.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: samin po, Your Honor, basta po nai-report po sa amin na suspicious or covered transaction, nire-record po namin yun. Kung ano man po yung underlying po niya na bakit nag-transact or ni-roll over, ito ay roll over lang nito, unless po kita dun sa... 04:06:30.700 --> 04:06:31.320 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, okay. 04:06:31.320 --> 04:06:32.260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po namin masagot. 04:06:32.260 --> 04:06:35.500 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Understood. Ang nangyari po, yung... 04:06:51.650 --> 04:06:52.670 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Dito 04:06:52.670 --> 04:07:03.270 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: sa usapin ng CTRs involving insurance policy investment related transaction, meron kayong listahan dito. Time deposit. 04:07:05.940 --> 04:07:12.740 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 129 CTRs. That does not mean 129 deposits. Anong ibig sabihin nun? 04:07:14.400 --> 04:07:22.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung na-report po namin na to kung ano lang po yung lumabas po doon sa records po namin, Your Honor. 04:07:22.340 --> 04:07:24.520 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, go ahead. 04:07:24.520 --> 04:07:39.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po, hindi ko po masasabi kung ito po ay rollover or hindi. Depende po yun doon sa pagkakareport. Sa panagbasihan po namin nito, separate po yung transaction reference number, unique number po yun. So, we just indicated po kung ano po yung nakalagay doon sa report. 04:07:39.700 --> 04:07:40.180 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And 04:07:40.180 --> 04:07:45.520 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: this is from what period? Kasi hindi yata nakalagay. 2007 to 2025? 04:07:45.520 --> 04:07:46.200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 04:07:46.200 --> 04:08:01.140 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. Kasi ang total ng time deposits, at least yung aggregate amount, hindi mo alam kung nag-rollover o hindi. Just so that we're guided sa mga bank annulator, 529 million. Tama? 04:08:01.140 --> 04:08:02.180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yan. 04:08:02.180 --> 04:08:10.980 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. At yung securities and bonds, ano yung securities and bonds? Para lang sa kaalaman nung... 04:08:10.980 --> 04:08:16.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po yung mga sa pagbumibili po ng... 04:08:16.440 --> 04:08:18.220 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Money market? 04:08:20.060 --> 04:08:21.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Opo, yung mga ganun po. 04:08:21.220 --> 04:08:26.660 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yung mga securities, T-bills, ganun? 04:08:26.660 --> 04:08:28.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Maaari po. Pero 04:08:28.080 --> 04:08:30.140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: hindi po namin alam kung ano ang underlying. 04:08:30.540 --> 04:08:38.460 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: As a general definition, this is 94,261,000. Tama? 04:08:38.640 --> 04:08:41.500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, sir. 261,275.70 euro. 04:08:41.620 --> 04:08:48.050 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. And then yung insurance policies, 50, ang total niya, 04:08:49.680 --> 04:08:51.180 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 65,322,000. 04:08:51.500 --> 04:08:52.160 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tama? 04:08:52.160 --> 04:08:53.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 688.10, yes. 04:08:53.440 --> 04:08:53.800 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And 04:08:53.800 --> 04:08:59.300 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: then finally, itong trust and agency investment. Yan, ano yan? 04:09:04.400 --> 04:09:11.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po kasi yung code na lumabas lang po sa amin. Hindi ko lang po ano po exactly yung nandito po. Pero ito yung code. 04:09:13.110 --> 04:09:17.890 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: UITF plus an agency. Kasi ito 60,492,000. 04:09:18.230 --> 04:09:18.870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 278 04:09:18.870 --> 04:09:20.050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: .57 euro. 04:09:20.050 --> 04:09:22.470 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 492,000. Okay. Last question. 04:09:23.690 --> 04:09:25.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may wind up, 04:09:25.350 --> 04:09:25.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator 04:09:25.970 --> 04:09:26.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Judge Kiko. 04:09:26.890 --> 04:09:27.390 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. 04:09:30.310 --> 04:09:42.490 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Nasaan ba yung huli kong tanong? Ah, ito. Hindi ko maintindihan itong 1,197 suspicious transactions sa 04:09:44.970 --> 04:09:47.570 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 88, 888 Bistro, 1 04:09:49.810 --> 04:09:51.470 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: ,100, ano ba to? 04:09:51.730 --> 04:09:57.670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Table 4 po, tama po, Your Honor. 1,197 STRs po. 04:09:57.670 --> 04:09:58.510 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Suspicious. 04:09:58.510 --> 04:10:00.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Suspicious transaction reports po, Your Honor. 04:10:00.510 --> 04:10:04.530 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: For an aggregate amount of 42,960,000. 04:10:04.530 --> 04:10:05.010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 69 04:10:05.010 --> 04:10:07.090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ,801.81 po, Your Honor. 04:10:07.490 --> 04:10:08.430 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Bakit ang dami? 04:10:13.890 --> 04:10:25.370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yun po your honor, hindi ko po kailangan po makita yung records your honor to determine kung ano po yung reason na inindicate nila for each one po. Hindi po namin yun naisama dito sa summary. 04:10:25.370 --> 04:10:26.090 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Sa kumpanya ito 04:10:26.090 --> 04:10:30.310 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: eh no? At ang mga nagre-record nito yung bank accounts ng kumpanya, tama? 04:10:30.450 --> 04:10:34.770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Covered persons po, hindi ko po alam exactly kung sino-sino lahat po yung nag-report po sa kanila. 04:10:35.230 --> 04:10:42.550 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, so yun lang ang ano no? There are 1,197 suspicions sa 8888 bistro. 04:10:46.610 --> 04:10:47.050 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, 04:10:48.950 --> 04:10:53.590 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: okay. I have no other questions at this time. Thank you, Mr. President. 04:10:53.590 --> 04:10:54.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 04:10:54.010 --> 04:10:54.810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you. Thank you, 04:10:54.810 --> 04:10:55.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator 04:10:55.010 --> 04:10:59.710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Judge Pangilinan. Senator Judge Villanueva is recognized. You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. 04:11:02.570 --> 04:11:05.850 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you, Mr. President. Kabayan, di ka pa rin kumakain? 04:11:06.790 --> 04:11:09.830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: After na lang po nito, Your Honor. Salamat po. 04:11:10.070 --> 04:11:12.150 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ano na agad yung time ko? Pinanong ko lang kung kumain. 04:11:12.150 --> 04:11:12.370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi 04:11:12.370 --> 04:11:12.930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po, Your Honor, 04:11:12.990 --> 04:11:13.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: hindi po. 04:11:13.430 --> 04:11:19.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi kayo, hindi kayo. Sila lang. Baka siya magalit si Mayor Christian pag di ka pinakain. 04:11:22.420 --> 04:11:35.000 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Clarification, kanina dun sa cross-examination, binanggit yung whether or not sinama or hindi yung binanggit, I think, if I'm not mistaken, yung BPI na 2 billion. Hindi po sinama, diba? 04:11:36.110 --> 04:11:37.910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi na po sinama. Hindi na po sinama. 04:11:37.930 --> 04:11:41.830 Sen. Joel Villanueva: So ibig sabihin kung sinama yun, umabot pa ng 6 billion yung aggregate. 04:11:43.470 --> 04:11:46.190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po makompute po pero plus yun po. 04:11:46.190 --> 04:11:47.970 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Kasi 4.4 billion. So 04:11:47.970 --> 04:12:04.210 Sen. Joel Villanueva: 6 billion. So kaya hindi nakasama. Okay. Thank you for that. Now, dito po sa tabular report and this is during the time when the vice presidents already elected 22 to 25. 04:12:05.950 --> 04:12:15.190 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Yung reported, approximately 424 million and about 178 million is classified as undetermined. Nakita niyo po yan? 04:12:15.390 --> 04:12:16.210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, tama po. 04:12:20.460 --> 04:12:36.900 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Hindi masabi kung inflow o outflow and that is a substantial portion of the total. Hindi ko ba? Out of 424, 178 yung hindi makita. Ano po exactly yung ibig sabihin ng undetermined? Inamblas Records. Ah, 04:12:37.020 --> 04:12:37.980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: okay po, your honor. 04:12:38.240 --> 04:12:44.900 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Si Senlito yung telepono na yun. Ah, okay po. Baka lang importante. Sigurado. 04:12:45.680 --> 04:12:57.720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, your honor to clarify lang po sa AMLC records po, we don't have an indication po sa record kung inflow or outflow po siya. 04:12:57.720 --> 04:12:58.120 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And what 04:12:58.120 --> 04:13:03.380 Sen. Joel Villanueva: prevents AMLC from identifying the direction of those transactions? 04:13:05.400 --> 04:13:44.150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Mas refined po kasi yung codes na ginagamit namin. Transaction code. Hindi lang po inflow or outflow. Instead na inflow lang po siya, may code na po kami na remittance ba yan, check deposit ba yan, cash deposit ba yan. So mas detalyado po. Pag nag-a-analyze po kami, mas madali po namin ma-analyze kung ano ba ito, cash deposit ba ito, check deposit ba ito. So, sa records po namin, hindi na po kami gumagamit, wala na po yung parang, wala po talaga as far as I know po. Wala pong in-flow or out-flow. Pero, nung ginawa lang po itong report based po doon sa 04:13:44.150 --> 04:13:55.000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: request ng prosecution, we are... We identified ano pong code yung maaaring based doon sa pumapasok sa account. So yun po yung naging base po namin. Kung 04:13:55.000 --> 04:14:05.960 Sen. Joel Villanueva: baga po hindi pumapasok doon sa chart of accounts ninyo and somehow this would be falling under perhaps unidentified? 04:14:07.160 --> 04:14:19.620 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa perspective po namin, hindi lang po namin ma-identify kung inflow po ba siya or outflow? Pero nagkaroon po ng transaction doon sa account. Hindi lang po namin [unclear]. 04:14:19.960 --> 04:14:24.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, hindi po namin makategorize at the point nung ginagawa po namin ito kung inflow or 04:14:24.860 --> 04:14:25.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: outflow. 04:14:25.360 --> 04:14:28.820 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Because if it is inflow, sir, inflow, wealth, yan. 04:14:30.400 --> 04:14:31.720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko rin po masabi. 04:14:31.780 --> 04:15:26.570 Sen. Joel Villanueva: That's my personal. Okay, that's my personal. Now, next question, attorney. You know, every time you say from China, It can easily become a headline especially nowadays but this is what we wanted to make sure kasi yung summary dito sa 319 million from China eh gusto natin ma-establish and approximately yung 319 million inward remittances to Cale88 Foods Corporation associated with China Para lang po hindi tayo mag-overstate ng record, does AMLC actually establish that the economic source of those funds was from China? Was China? Or does the table only establish that the remitters had addresses reported as being in mainland China or in Hong Kong? 04:15:28.760 --> 04:15:53.640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: None of the above, Your Honor. Ang meron po is Based on records, as reported by the reporting entity or covered person, ang nilagay po nila na place of remitter, place or address of the remitter ay ito pong mga bansa po na ito. So, ito po ay based po as reported sa amin nung covered person na nag-report po. 04:15:53.640 --> 04:15:54.400 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And sorry 04:15:54.400 --> 04:16:04.450 Sen. Joel Villanueva: ha, and you say, just to clarify, you say na reported address of the remitter, not the location of a correspondent bank? Tama ba? 04:16:07.040 --> 04:16:26.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Opo, tama po. Nakalagay po dito sa may note po kami na sa footnote number 9 po. Based on the remitter's address as reported and not on the correspondent bank. Where the address does not state the country, the city state that is used po. So 04:16:26.120 --> 04:16:59.800 Sen. Joel Villanueva: siguro ito nila yung last ipupunto ko, attorney. Can AMLA... Can AMLC identify the natural or juridical persons who sent the funds, their relationship for example to itong Cale88 and the stated purpose of the remittance whether ito man ay payment ng goods or services, loan man ito, investment, capital infusion or another transaction? Kasi pag tinignan mo yung operation, parang concerning talaga eh. 04:17:00.780 --> 04:17:13.320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: On the basis of the CTRs and STRs, no po kung ano lang kasi yung nai-report po sa amin. But if we, if in ordinary procedure po, if we conduct further investigation, we'll be able to identify po, Your Honor. 04:17:13.500 --> 04:17:23.360 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And the STR alone states 1,197 dun sa bistro. Dito sa Kale, I 04:17:31.550 --> 04:17:34.170 Sen. Joel Villanueva: think there are three. I think there are three. 04:17:34.770 --> 04:17:36.430 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Is that correct? 04:17:36.430 --> 04:17:39.530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: For the inward remittance po, there are three po, your honor. 04:17:40.150 --> 04:17:44.970 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Anyway, salamat po at naliwanagan ako kahit papano. Salamat po. 04:17:45.150 --> 04:17:45.930 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Marami po, salamat. 04:17:45.930 --> 04:17:50.710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. The Senate President is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes when you're ready. 04:17:50.930 --> 04:17:55.690 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Good afternoon, Atty. Buenaventura. 04:17:55.690 --> 04:17:55.870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Good 04:17:55.870 --> 04:17:56.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: afternoon, po, 04:17:56.350 --> 04:17:56.850 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Senate President. 04:17:56.850 --> 04:18:21.340 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tinitignan ko itong report ninyo na finurnish kami yung Annex DD-9 Letter D, no? May nakita kong pattern dito. From 2009 to 2013, ang transactions reported by VP Sara for that time frame alone is about 2.7 billion pesos. 04:18:22.940 --> 04:18:50.670 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Lumalabas parang that transaction alone It's almost 70-80% of the total 3.3 billion transaction. So, for example sa 2009, 700 million, 2010, 600 million, 2011, 500 million. Ito ba, alam ko matagal na ito, ito ba tinitignan rin ng AMLC? 04:18:52.950 --> 04:19:00.940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies, Your Honor, I don't have a copy po nung... Nung report po na nabanggit nyo right now with me po. 04:19:00.940 --> 04:19:01.420 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ito 04:19:01.420 --> 04:19:03.860 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: yung report na finurnish nyo sa amin. 04:19:04.420 --> 04:19:13.480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Confidential information sharing. Wala lang po akong copy on hand po. But just to answer na lang po your question po. 04:19:15.280 --> 04:19:25.800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As stated lang po doon sa report, naka-indicate po that they were included in that report po. So, yun na po yung maisasagot ko po doon sa tanong nyo po. 04:19:25.800 --> 04:19:43.840 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But it's an unusual trend kasi compared to the others na on the average 40 million lang in transaction, ito is about 2.7 billion in transaction in the span of 5 years. In your opinion, is this something that AMLC should look at despite, alam ko matagal na siya? 04:19:45.760 --> 04:19:46.360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your 04:19:46.360 --> 04:19:46.680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor, 04:19:49.340 --> 04:20:03.720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: tinitignan, hindi ko po maalala po kasi yung exact na nakalagay po, but generally po, yung historical naman po na transaction, tinitignan din po kasi po, part din po sa tinitignan kung nagkaroon ba ng biglaang... 04:20:11.230 --> 04:20:12.110 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank 04:20:12.110 --> 04:20:42.340 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: you for that answer. And then, nakita ko rin dito sa report ninyo na out of the 34 STRs, again kay Vice President Sarreto, 30 nasa period between 2022 to 2025. So that's about 80% nung kanyang STRs nasa tatlong taon lang. Bakit nasa tatlong taon lang out of the entire 18-year period? 04:20:43.630 --> 04:20:51.170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, hindi ko po masagot ito po ay kung ano po yung lumabas sa record namin na nireport po ng covered person. Yun po yung... 04:20:51.170 --> 04:21:00.050 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yes, tama nga. Galing to sa report nyo. Anong sinasabi ng inyong report? Bakit in three years out of the... 04:21:01.840 --> 04:21:06.180 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 18 years. Doon ang bulto ng STRs. 04:21:06.800 --> 04:21:13.200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies po, Your Honor. Wala lang po kasi ako nung copy ng report so hindi ko po masagot kung ano po yung naka-indicate po sa report po, Your Honor. 04:21:13.840 --> 04:21:15.620 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Wala ka ba? Galing sa iyo yung report? 04:21:15.920 --> 04:21:21.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po akong copy nung on-hand po. Hindi po siya isa doon sa dala ko po na copy, Your Honor. 04:21:21.880 --> 04:21:30.740 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ito yung nanggaling to dito sa October 04:21:33.390 --> 04:21:33.950 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 1. 04:21:40.110 --> 04:21:41.990 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Request for summary. Ito po. 04:21:41.990 --> 04:21:42.230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry 04:21:42.230 --> 04:21:44.650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. Yung table 3 po ba, Your Honor? Table 3 po. 04:21:45.290 --> 04:21:47.210 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yes, table 3. 04:21:47.210 --> 04:21:48.630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah, table 3 po. 04:21:48.630 --> 04:21:55.240 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tingnan mo yung table 1 and table 3. Tama. 04:21:55.240 --> 04:21:55.600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay. 04:21:55.660 --> 04:22:00.660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, pasensya na po, Your Honor. Maari po bang maipaulit po yung katanungan? 04:22:00.660 --> 04:22:01.040 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tingnan mo yung table 04:22:01.040 --> 04:22:01.680 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 1. 04:22:01.680 --> 04:22:02.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Table 1 po. 04:22:02.340 --> 04:22:03.800 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kay Vice President Sara 34. 04:22:05.460 --> 04:22:12.620 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: STRs. Table 3, 30. Bakit nandoon sa tatlong taon yung bulto ng STRs niya? 04:22:15.730 --> 04:22:27.230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po, Your Honor, ay binilang lang po namin sa amin po. At ang bilang po namin ay from 2007 to 2025. 04:22:27.230 --> 04:22:29.610 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Correct. Alam ko binilang niyo. Pero bakit nga? 04:22:32.600 --> 04:22:37.120 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Anong dahilan ng STRs? Ano yung mga grounds na na-declare siyang STR? 04:22:37.300 --> 04:22:55.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, yung pong mismong report po ng covered person, meron po nakilagay po kung ano yung reason. Kung kailangan po natin nung reason, hindi ko po, on top of my head po, hindi ko po siya kabisado. I'll have to refer po dun sa mismong record po. Ano 04:22:55.860 --> 04:22:59.180 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: ba yung mga reasons na, dito lang, concerning this one, 04:23:01.100 --> 04:23:04.020 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Natatandaan mo? Doon sa 30. 04:23:04.980 --> 04:23:16.080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, apologies po. I cannot recall po yung sa 30 po. Ay hindi ko po siya intentionally tinignan when I was preparing for my testimony po, Your Honor. 04:23:16.240 --> 04:23:30.270 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. Meron akong, pero hindi ito comprehensive. May mga nakita kong, I just went through it lang very quickly lang. Emalversation of public funds and property. 04:23:31.970 --> 04:23:37.890 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: graph and corrupt practices. Ito yung mga nakasulat sa ilan sa mga STRs. 04:23:39.640 --> 04:23:44.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung yun po yung nakasulat yun, yun po as reported po ng covered person. 04:23:45.110 --> 04:23:50.210 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: And then, nakita ko rin dito na marami dito ang source ay news articles. 04:23:52.400 --> 04:24:07.160 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Sa inyo bang process, pag ganitong Mayroong grounds, ang dahilan ay malversations of public funds and property and then galing news articles. Anong susunod na step? 04:24:08.950 --> 04:24:10.550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, ito po ay yung 04:24:10.550 --> 04:24:17.810 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: process lang naman po. Your Honor, hindi po masagot yung for this one. Process lang. Process lang. Ano yung 04:24:17.810 --> 04:24:18.510 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: susunod na step? 04:24:18.710 --> 04:25:24.560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung may nag-report po sa amin na covered person, tapos indicate po nila yung particular na crime po, alam ba po, drug trafficking or kung ano man po. So, titignan po namin doon sa narrative nila, ano po yung basis bakit nila ni-report. So, alam ba po, binention po sila na news report. Tapos may nilagay po doon halimbawa na may nag-file po ng kaso, ganyan. So kami po, titignan po namin sinong agency ba yung dapat namin ma-coordinate to confirm po kung talaga bang may final na kaso, talaga bang may investigation. Kasi po, sabi nga po, paliwanag po kanina, yung sa amin po is the financial side po ng crime. So base po doon sa report, Kung baga, pag nag-contact po kami ng analysis tsaka further investigation po, titignan namin, okay, kung na-report po ito, may nag-file daw ng kaso, let's coordinate po dun sa law enforcement po, kasi naman po. And then titignan po namin, yung bang final nila, meron bang financial aspect po na-involve. Kasi maaari naman po nawala din eh. So kung meron po, yun po, magka-conduct na po kami ng normal po na investigation po. So 04:25:24.560 --> 04:25:27.860 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: kahit na news report, inaktuhan nyo rin and you investigate? 04:25:28.730 --> 04:25:49.330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: kasama po yun, maaari pong maging factor po yun, maging trigger din po, kasama po ng all other like yung STRs, CTRs po. So tinitignan po namin on the overall information na meron kami, ano yung kung talaga ba mapoprogress or hindi po. 04:25:49.330 --> 04:25:49.710 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank 04:25:49.710 --> 04:25:50.010 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: you, 04:25:50.050 --> 04:25:50.510 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Mr. President. 04:25:51.170 --> 04:26:08.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. It should be Senator Judge Padilla but while waiting for him, Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo. AMLC is recognized. You may proceed sir. You have two minutes. If Senator Padilla is still not available, Senator Judge Pangilinan will be up next. You may proceed sir when you're ready. 04:26:09.430 --> 04:26:14.030 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Attorney Ronel Buenaventura. 04:26:14.030 --> 04:26:15.940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 04:26:15.940 --> 04:26:31.610 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Bagamat luwabas na po dito sa impeachment court ito pong issue na ito tinggal po sa mga bank transactions po ng VP, mag-iimbestiga pa rin po ba ang AMLC? or AMLC. Patungkol ba sa mga accounts po niya? O hindi na? 04:26:33.380 --> 04:26:42.660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung decision po na yun ay kailangan ko pa po i-discuss din po internally sa amin po. So hindi ko pa po masagot ngayon po. 04:26:42.660 --> 04:26:43.080 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alright. 04:26:44.780 --> 04:26:53.120 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Base po sa records ng AMLC, AMLC, may pera po mag-isawa sa bangko. Tama po ba? 2007 hanggang 2025. 04:26:55.400 --> 04:26:56.920 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Pakicheck po dyan sa papel nyo. 04:27:00.970 --> 04:27:11.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung nandito po na report po namin, transaction po nila ito. Hindi po namin masabi kung meron pong laman na pera po 04:27:11.130 --> 04:27:12.890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: sa particular na bank account po nila. 04:27:13.030 --> 04:27:15.030 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Okay, so transactions lang po ito. 04:27:15.030 --> 04:27:15.450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, transactions. 04:27:15.450 --> 04:27:15.750 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Saan po 04:27:15.750 --> 04:27:19.550 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: hinango yung inyong dokumento na yan? Sino po nagbigay sa inyo yan? 04:27:20.380 --> 04:27:23.640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po yung repair po namin na summary po. 04:27:23.640 --> 04:27:24.280 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kaya nga 04:27:24.280 --> 04:27:27.800 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: po saan po nakuha ninyo yung report na yan? Sa banko, di po ba? 04:27:28.040 --> 04:27:29.820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung basis po nito sa banko po. 04:27:29.900 --> 04:27:30.440 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Sa banko, 04:27:30.440 --> 04:27:31.320 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: ayun. 04:27:31.320 --> 04:27:32.820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Banko and covered person po, in 04:27:32.820 --> 04:27:33.480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: general po. 04:27:33.480 --> 04:27:46.960 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Okay, alright. So taliwas po ito sa SALN EVP na zero cash on hand at zero cash in bank from 2019 to 2025. Pero huwag nyo na po sagutin yan kasi baka wala po kayong dokumento. Okay. 04:27:49.280 --> 04:28:07.860 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kung wala po kayong personal knowledge at walang definitive AMLC findings hinggil po sa mga accounts na ito, attorney, ano po ang factual basis para sabihin nating legal o illegal ang source ng mga pera ng mag-asawa? O safe ba nating sabihin na walang problema ang mga pera nila at all? 04:28:09.200 --> 04:28:10.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, 04:28:11.800 --> 04:28:32.600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa akin po, I submit to this honorable court po to determine that po based po dun sa I understand po with the ongoing case po. Ako naman po ay kami naman po sa AMSA ay nasupina. Ito po yung pinaproduce po sa amin. So we just submit po. So yung pagbuo po nito o kung ano man po, appreciation po nasa honorable court na po, Your Honor. 04:28:32.680 --> 04:28:50.200 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Very good answer, sir. Anyway. Can you identify if there are any specific amount that remains unexplained that is attributed to VP Sara after all transfers, legit transactions, and with funds with documents, sources? 04:28:51.850 --> 04:28:57.950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, for the same answer po, I leave it to the Honorable Court to determine kung if they think it is unexplained or not, Your Honor. 04:28:58.090 --> 04:29:31.680 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: I will take that answer, sir. Anyway, without mentioning names or attributing to someone, Atty. Ronel, normal po ba sa isang government official na makipag-transact sa isang foreign company or state-owned company without mentioning any names or based on your experience, may nakikita na ba kayo na ganun na... of government official natin, transacting business with state-owned, hindi lang China, pwede sa abroad, US, Europe, lalaking ipag-transact po isang government official natin. 04:29:33.040 --> 04:29:37.520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Maikli pa lang po yung servisyo ko sa gobyerno, Your Honor, so hindi ko po masagot po yung... 04:29:37.520 --> 04:29:37.660 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So 04:29:37.660 --> 04:29:39.300 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: you haven't encountered yet? 04:29:39.300 --> 04:29:40.260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 04:29:40.260 --> 04:29:47.780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alright. Well, Mr. Presiding Officer, that's it for me for this afternoon. Thank you. Thank you. 04:29:47.860 --> 04:29:51.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Pangilinan. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready. 04:29:51.190 --> 04:29:53.090 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you 04:29:57.670 --> 04:30:00.000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: once again, Mr. Presiding Officer. 04:30:00.000 --> 04:30:16.700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In general 04:30:16.860 --> 04:30:18.240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po, yes sir. At 04:30:18.240 --> 04:30:26.220 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: dito sa mga kasong ito na dinadala niyo sa CA, nagbibigay kayo ng AMLA records, di ba? 04:30:30.180 --> 04:30:32.540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po. Yes po. Totoo po. 04:30:32.540 --> 04:30:32.920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes. 04:30:32.920 --> 04:30:34.620 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At tinatanggap ng Korte. 04:30:34.620 --> 04:30:35.320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Opo. 04:30:35.320 --> 04:30:43.000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At ginagamit ng Korte ng basehan para mag-issue o hindi mag-issue ng freeze order. 04:30:43.000 --> 04:30:44.400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 04:30:44.400 --> 04:30:54.700 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At kung wala yung mga records na yun at dahil nga absolute confidentiality, mapapabilis ba yung trabaho niyo? 04:30:56.380 --> 04:31:05.020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung absolute confidentiality po, hindi po kami mapag-file ng kaso. At kung mag-file man kami at wala pong supporting documents, ididismiss lang po yun ng court po. 04:31:05.260 --> 04:31:15.370 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kaya, ibig sabihin, yung absolute confidentiality only pertains to unauthorized disclosures. 04:31:15.370 --> 04:31:16.170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, Your Honor. 04:31:16.170 --> 04:31:16.590 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Hindi ba? 04:31:16.590 --> 04:31:16.930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo. 04:31:16.930 --> 04:31:23.540 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pero pagka authorized disclosures, the absolute confidentiality will not apply. 04:31:25.570 --> 04:31:29.430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Insofar as the law, the rules and guidelines would allow. 04:31:29.430 --> 04:31:29.830 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kung 04:31:29.830 --> 04:31:44.510 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: susundan natin yung argumento na may absolute confidentiality ang AMLA records, wala na kayong na-freeze ng mga account, wala na kayong may sasampangkasong money laundering at iba pa. 04:31:44.850 --> 04:31:49.770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Tama po. Hindi rin po kami makapagsabit nung halimbawa po nagre-request ng mga... 04:31:49.770 --> 04:31:50.110 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kaya 04:31:50.110 --> 04:31:50.610 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: hindi na namin 04:31:50.610 --> 04:31:50.850 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: kayo 04:31:50.850 --> 04:31:52.070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: bibigyan ng budget. 04:31:52.070 --> 04:31:52.970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ayun nga po sasabihin ko. 04:31:52.990 --> 04:31:57.410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi na po kami makasabit ng mga documents to support the budget request po, Your Honor. 04:31:57.870 --> 04:32:04.150 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Bakit namin kayo bibigyan ng budget? Sabi nga ni Senate President Soto, magsara na lang kayo. Hindi ba? 04:32:05.980 --> 04:32:10.120 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: No other questions, Mr. Presiding Officer. 04:32:10.240 --> 04:32:17.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: While we're waiting for Senator Judge Rob, Senator Judge J.V. Ejercito is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes. When you're ready. 04:32:18.500 --> 04:32:22.700 Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon, Director. 04:32:22.700 --> 04:32:24.960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Magandang hapon po, Honorable Senator. 04:32:24.960 --> 04:32:40.700 Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito: Meron na ng katanungan, pagpalilinaw. Kapag gumagawa ba ng covered banks ng CTR at STRs, Para sa mga corporation, tinutukoy din ba nila kung sino mismo ang actual na nasa ligod o nagsasagawan ng transaction? 04:32:42.980 --> 04:33:00.900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nakalagay po kung sino yung pangalan, kung kaninong account. May entries po kami, depende po sa nature ng transaction, like po yung remittance po, nakalagay po kung sino yung nagpadala, tsaka yung address po. So may iba po na alam, may iba po, depende po sa nature po ng transaction, your honor. 04:33:01.560 --> 04:33:21.560 Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito: So sa kaso po ng mga korporasyong nakasal sa table 4 nung inyong summary particular po pag tinutukoy ng mga bangko o covered institutions kung ang vice president o si Atty. Carpio nga ba ang mismong nagsagawa ng mga transaksyong naging subject ng mga CTR at STR? 04:33:22.430 --> 04:33:27.670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung table 4, yung juridical, ay yung juridical persons, ay yung corporations po your honor. 04:33:30.970 --> 04:33:50.190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masagot your honor kasi kung ang tanong niyo po ay kung si attorney Carpio po kasi Hindi ko po masagot kasi maaari pong nailagay po sa report pero hindi ko po, kumbaga hindi ko po consciously inisa-isa po yung report po. So maaari pong nakalagay siya doon, maaari rin po na hindi. 04:33:50.190 --> 04:33:51.730 Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito: So hindi masasabi no? 04:33:51.730 --> 04:33:56.330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko lang po masasabi ngayon po kasi isa-isahin po para po malaman namin. 04:33:57.360 --> 04:34:07.180 Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito: So ano pong ibang informasyon na pwede natin makuha o kailangan para malaman kung sino talaga ang gumawa ng ngayong transaksyon? 04:34:09.520 --> 04:34:16.040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kadalasan po ito, in general na lang po kasi hindi ko po masagot yung dito po. 04:34:18.140 --> 04:34:41.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Para po malaman namin yung mga actual na transaksyon po. Yung mga detalye po, nagpa-file po kami kung sa banko po yun nung bank inquiry po. Mag-i-inquire na po kami with the banks po. Tapos, hingi din po kami ng kung kinakalangan po yung mga SEC records. Request po kami to determine sino po yung mga persons po behind this. 04:34:41.790 --> 04:34:44.450 Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito: Okay, thank you. I'm so beside you, sir. Salamat, Director. 04:34:45.430 --> 04:34:46.710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Zubiris, recognize. 04:34:52.330 --> 04:34:54.290 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Magandang hapon, Attorney Buenaventura. 04:34:54.530 --> 04:34:55.290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Magandang hapon po. 04:34:55.290 --> 04:34:55.590 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Thank 04:34:55.590 --> 04:35:06.640 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: you. Atty. Buenaventura, alam ko gatekeeper, alam po kayo record keeping. Pag po pumapasok ng mga suspicious transactions, re-record niyo yan for further study. Di ba po? 04:35:06.640 --> 04:35:07.340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 04:35:07.340 --> 04:35:16.540 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: So, alam niyo din po, katulad binanggit kanina ni Sen. JV, alam niyo po kung saan galing papasok yung pera at palabas? Saan papunta? 04:35:16.540 --> 04:35:18.060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As reported po, yes po. 04:35:18.060 --> 04:35:27.250 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: As reported. So, you have a detailed breakdown. Kung sino yung nagpapadala ng remittance o pera sa isang account na suspicious. 04:35:27.790 --> 04:35:31.230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po, basta nai-report po sa amin, makikita po yun sa records ako. 04:35:31.530 --> 04:35:44.850 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Dahil dito sa binigyan yung records sa Cal... How do you pronounce it? Is it Kale or Kale? Kasi Kale kasi is double L eh. Kale, C-A... Anyway, C-A-L-E 88, Kale 88, or Kale 88. 04:35:46.480 --> 04:36:08.200 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Pwede bang, could you furnish the court a copy of the breakdown of all the remittances from overseas? Yung China, Hong Kong, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Russia, South Africa, Ukraine, Tajikistan. Could you just copy the court for us to study further and closely yung mga deposits na ito? 04:36:08.200 --> 04:36:09.740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung pong 04:36:09.740 --> 04:36:20.250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: CRS aggregate amount nandito po sa Table 5. Yung actual na report po on this one po, nasabit na po namin sa court. 04:36:21.790 --> 04:36:25.190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung CTRs na copies po, yung mga pinapabasa po sa akin. 04:36:25.450 --> 04:36:50.920 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: May we ask the presiding officer, Mr. Presiding Officer, can you give us the breakdown of the companies that are remitting from these other countries? Binagit kasi lang natin mainland China, tsaka Hong Kong. There are other countries that almost add up to 50 million. It's interesting to find out itong mga kumpanya kung ano itong mga kumpanya. Should we have the AMLC furnish that to us or should we just do it on our own, Mr. President? 04:36:50.920 --> 04:36:51.020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We 04:36:51.020 --> 04:37:07.090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: can, the clerk can do that. The clerk can assist, the clerk of court rather, can assist the senator-judge in calling that from the evidence on record as submitted by AMLC. Nandun po yan sa mga sinabit niyo po, di po? Yung mga kumpanya mula sa Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Russia. 04:37:07.090 --> 04:37:08.490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As reported po. Yes po. 04:37:08.590 --> 04:37:15.730 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: As reported. At sana ilalagay po individually which companies at magkano yung rinipit po nila sa atin. Maraming salamat po sa inyong office. 04:37:15.730 --> 04:37:16.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The clerk 04:37:16.070 --> 04:37:31.950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is so directed to furnish Senator Judge Zubiri with a list of the companies coming from the countries mentioned in the AMLC report under the table submitted by Attorney Ronel. All the Senator Judges 04:37:31.950 --> 04:37:34.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: as requested by Senator Judge Villanueva. So ordered. 04:37:35.150 --> 04:37:54.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the Senate President, Senator Judge Robin Padilla is no longer availing of his interjection. The Presiding Officer has just a few more interjections. I refer you to page 6, table 6 of your summary. Ano po ang year covered nito? 04:37:57.650 --> 04:37:58.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ito 04:37:58.230 --> 04:38:01.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: po yung CTR involving insurance policies, investment-related transactions. 04:38:05.320 --> 04:38:07.820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 2007 to 2025 po, Your Honor. 04:38:08.640 --> 04:38:21.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 2007 to 2025. Napansin ko po rito, dito pala nakalagay yung time deposit. So, 529,805,306 pesos and 40 centavos yung time deposits. 04:38:21.480 --> 04:38:22.980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yung nasa... 04:38:22.980 --> 04:38:24.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hiwalay 04:38:24.140 --> 04:38:29.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: po yan dun sa deposito sa bangko. Or counted po yan dun? 04:38:29.900 --> 04:38:30.860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasama po yan, 04:38:30.960 --> 04:38:31.600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 04:38:31.780 --> 04:38:33.040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ano ibig sabihin ng kasama? I mean, 04:38:33.080 --> 04:38:39.750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: counted po yan. Counted po. Counted po sa nareport po ng banko. Time deposit po ay sa banko po ito, Your Honor. 04:38:40.010 --> 04:38:42.330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Opo, ba't hiniwalay nyo ng table dito? 04:38:43.190 --> 04:38:46.150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasi yung investment 04:38:47.720 --> 04:38:53.220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: related transaction po yung narequest po, yung nandun po sa letter ng prosecution, Your 04:38:53.220 --> 04:38:53.460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 04:38:53.460 --> 04:39:12.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So dito po sa table 3, kaugnay ng CTR at STR from 2022 to 2025, Kasama po yung time deposits na 529 million for the period covered by 2022 and 2025. Tama po? 04:39:12.320 --> 04:39:15.260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po yung entire 529. 04:39:15.260 --> 04:39:15.740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kasi 04:39:15.740 --> 04:39:16.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: nga 22 to 25 lang. 04:39:17.160 --> 04:39:17.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pero 04:39:17.840 --> 04:39:27.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: yung 2022 to 2025, yung 500 million kasama yan sa 4.4 billion. 04:39:27.900 --> 04:39:31.760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Sa table, ano number po ito? 04:39:31.760 --> 04:39:32.700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Page 1. 04:39:34.600 --> 04:39:35.540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So 04:39:35.540 --> 04:39:41.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: dyan papasok yung rollover sa kabuhang halaga na 529 million. 04:39:42.410 --> 04:39:48.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yung sinasabing 04:39:48.350 --> 04:39:51.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: rollover ng mga kabilang partido. 04:39:52.970 --> 04:39:58.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pero kaugnay lamang yan sa 529 million out of the 4.4 billion. 04:40:01.080 --> 04:40:03.220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'm simply disaggregating it, Atty. Ronald. 04:40:03.320 --> 04:40:04.880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun. Tama po yun. 04:40:05.000 --> 04:40:12.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, yung parte ng time deposit na posibleng i-rollover dito sa 4.4 billion ay 529 million lamang? 04:40:13.570 --> 04:40:22.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung yung napag-usapan po na rollover, yes po. Pero hindi ko po sinasabi na rollover po yun. As reported lang 04:40:22.130 --> 04:40:22.390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. 04:40:22.390 --> 04:40:26.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Salamat po. Sunod po. Kunti lamang po ito. 04:40:30.480 --> 04:41:03.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yung mga korporasyon, Sabihin na po natin, halimbawa, I refer you to table 2. Gencorp Industries. Yung outflow po, 1.9 billion. Yung inflow po, 1.06 billion. Mas malaki po yung outflow kesa sa inflow. Ibig sabihin, mas marami yung transaksyon na hindi na-cover or na-report bilang suspicious na pumasok dun sa account. ng korporasyon. Is that a safe inference? 04:41:08.050 --> 04:41:09.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Inferring from your table. 04:41:09.950 --> 04:41:50.730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung this is my personal, ano lang po yun, I don't want to add an analysis na hindi po officially na gawa po namin. So, it would appear lang po na mas mataas po yung outflow kesa sa inflow. So, maari lang po, maari lang po na meron pong hindi Kung ang gusto po natin mapakita ay dapat equal po yung inflow or outflow, base po nalalabas lang dito sa pag-initial ko lang po natingin ay mas marami pong laman na hindi po namin, na hindi po nai-report. 04:41:50.730 --> 04:41:51.030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Na 04:41:51.030 --> 04:41:55.330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: hindi po covered o hindi suspicious na pumasok sa account ng kumpanya. 04:41:55.330 --> 04:41:56.270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 04:41:56.270 --> 04:42:01.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is that a fair inference in the realm of possibilities? 04:42:02.530 --> 04:42:05.630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, sir. But sa possibility lang po. So, it's my... 04:42:05.630 --> 04:42:06.790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Only 04:42:06.790 --> 04:42:13.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in the realm of possibilities, of course. Now, I refer you to table 3. 04:42:18.210 --> 04:42:28.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 424 million and total combined na pumasok at lumabas. Tama po ba? 04:42:28.710 --> 04:42:29.350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 04:42:29.430 --> 04:42:35.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pumasagat lumabas sa mga account ni Vice President Duterte at kanyang asawa na si Atty. Carpio. 04:42:35.330 --> 04:42:38.310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 424179536.1 04:42:38.310 --> 04:42:38.450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 04:42:38.450 --> 04:42:40.990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: this covers only the period 2022 to 2025. 04:42:41.530 --> 04:42:42.690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, Your Honor. 04:42:44.330 --> 04:42:44.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sir, 04:42:47.170 --> 04:42:54.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: again, I tried to bring things in its absurd possibility to find out and test a hypothesis. 04:42:56.490 --> 04:43:36.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In-add ko po yung SALN ng ikalawang Pangulo mula 2022, 23, 24, at 25. In-add. Hindi naman dapat in-add yun, di ba? Kasi iba-ibang taon naman yun eh. At kasama na yung deklarasyong na huli doon sa unang deklarasyon. It totaled 336 million. And change. Hindi pa rin umabot ng 424. Meaning to say, on the assumption na walang ginastos, walang ginastos mula sa lahat ng assets nila at lahat na dineposito sa banko, hindi pa rin naabot sa ganito kalaking halaga. 04:43:38.630 --> 04:43:45.490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa palagay at pananaw nyo, ulitin ko, in the realm of possibilities, what would explain this huge amount? 04:43:47.690 --> 04:43:49.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Posible ba yung in and out? 04:43:52.220 --> 04:43:57.880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masagot. Hindi ko po nakita yung sa SALN. Pero kung base lang po dun sa premise na binigay niyo po. 04:43:57.980 --> 04:44:02.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Based on the premise that I give because it's an accurate depiction of the SALN for those four years. 04:44:02.760 --> 04:44:13.780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So yung po kasing transaction as reported to us, they happened across the years, across the entire year po or years po. So hindi po siya... 04:44:13.780 --> 04:44:39.930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Four years. I mean ibig sabihin sa isang taon yung transaction po na to hindi naman po ginawa lang ng isang beses kundi spread din po as reported to us po. So kung ang pagkakaintindi ko po sa SALN kasi yung ending po yun sa December po. So kung yung asset po kasi hindi naman po siya yung transaction. 04:44:39.930 --> 04:44:40.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi nga dapat 04:44:40.270 --> 04:44:42.090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: bilang yun diba pero binilang ko na nga eh. 04:44:49.710 --> 04:44:50.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So 04:44:50.310 --> 04:45:06.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: hindi niyo po kayang paliwanag. You cannot explain how it reached 424 million. Assuming the presumption of this representation is correct with respect to her SALN. 04:45:07.180 --> 04:45:11.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Dun sa 04:45:11.120 --> 04:45:13.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 4.4 billion, yun din ang katanungan ko. 04:45:15.470 --> 04:45:20.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yung 4.4 billion covering the period 2007 to 2025. 04:45:22.190 --> 04:45:37.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, I bring it to its absurd point. We tried to add to all of the amounts in the combined SALNs for those covered period of 2007 to 2025. It totaled only 840 million. 04:45:39.890 --> 04:45:45.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, as you said earlier, Atty. Ronel, kasama na nga dyan yung assets, di ba? Hindi na nga yung sa deposito lang sa banko, hindi nga lang yung cash eh. 04:45:47.680 --> 04:46:00.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, you would need 5x at least, 5 times of the combined SALN from 07 to 2025 to be able to explain the huge amount of 4.4 billion in transactions. 04:46:02.020 --> 04:46:16.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In the realm of possibilities again, can you explain how it could reach that amount knowing that the highest SALN in 2025 was at 98 million and the lowest SALN in 2007 was at 7 million? 04:46:18.670 --> 04:46:19.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can you 04:46:19.070 --> 04:46:19.450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: explain 04:46:19.450 --> 04:46:19.770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it, sir? 04:46:20.630 --> 04:46:27.070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to explain or answer that, Your Honor. Just based on the records, Your Honor. 04:46:27.070 --> 04:46:27.470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Alam 04:46:27.470 --> 04:46:34.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ko po, but in the realm of possibilities, is there a possible explanation that can come to your mind as to how this can be? 04:46:36.520 --> 04:46:37.980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If you know? 04:46:37.980 --> 04:46:43.440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. On top of my head, Medyo nahihirapan din po ako. So 04:46:43.440 --> 04:46:54.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: hindi niyo rin po kayang paliwanan kung bakit umabot ng ganito ka apat? 4.4 billion yung amount. Based on the data I relayed to you on the SALN. 04:46:56.190 --> 04:46:59.130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yun po, hindi ko po masagot po, Your Honor. 04:46:59.450 --> 04:47:10.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ang sweldo po ng ikalawang Pangulo, kada buwan ay 350,000. From 2022 to 2025, subalit 04:47:11.880 --> 04:47:42.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ayon sa datos niyo, ang demand sa accounts nilang mag-asawa, sweldo lang po yung pinagbabasayan ko. Lilitan ko naman, again, to the opposite absurd. To the opposite absurd point, kaya niyo bang ipaliwanag kung paano pa rin nakarating ng 424 million ang kabuhang transaksyon sa loob ng 2022 to 2025 kung ang sweldo po, indeklaradong kitaw income, base sa sweldo lamang ay 350,000? 04:47:43.430 --> 04:47:45.730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies po, Your Honor, I cannot explain. 04:47:45.730 --> 04:47:45.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 04:47:45.830 --> 04:47:46.990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: cannot explain it as well? 04:47:46.990 --> 04:47:48.390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 04:47:48.390 --> 04:47:59.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nothing further, Atty. Ronel. Thank you for your time. Are there any other questions? If there are none, nakaraos at nairaos din natin, Atty. Ronel. 04:48:02.230 --> 04:48:35.730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Salamat po sa inyong oras, sa inyong panahon, sa inyong pasensya, sa inyong patnubay at pagsagot sa katanungan ng mga Senator-Judges, gayon din ang magkabilang partido. At sa inyong mahabang pasensya sa loob ng dalawang araw, kayo na po yung record holder ng may pinakamahabang panahon na naupo sa witness stand po as of now. Hindi lamang sa impeachment trial na ito pero sa mga nakarang impeachment trials din. Hindi ko po sasabihin congratulations pero maraming salamat na lang po. You are excused sir. Thank you sir. 04:48:35.810 --> 04:48:46.120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Maraming salamat din po sa Honorable Court at sa Defense and Prosecution. Naipalawanan ko naman po at least yung kung ano po yung mga dapat namin maipalawanag po. Marami pong salamat. 04:48:46.950 --> 04:48:47.590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, 04:48:47.630 --> 04:48:48.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ronel. 04:48:51.630 --> 04:49:05.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, what is the pleasure of the lead prosecutor, the Hon. Luistro. I'm in receipt here of 20 names of witnesses for the various banks and insurance companies. 04:49:07.430 --> 04:49:09.730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is your pleasure, Hon. Luistro? 04:49:09.890 --> 04:49:53.120 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Your Honor, before we proceed to our next witness who will be representative of The First Bank, which is the land bank of the Philippines. I have a short manifestation with respect to the summaries which the prosecution received just today from the Bureau of Internal Revenue. We would like to confirm for the record, Your Honor, whether the defense as well as the Honorable Impeachment Court received the same summary, Your Honor. This pertains to the taxpayer's profile, incomes and taxes, Your Honor, because I understand that this will be presented and will take a significant part in the presentation of our BIR representative in the coming days, Your Honor. 04:49:53.300 --> 04:50:05.680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'm only seeing it now, actually, so I confirm receipt just now. How about on the part of the respondent, Attorney Sheila? Do you confirm receipt of the summary? 04:50:05.820 --> 04:50:20.420 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Good afternoon, Your Honor. Unfortunately, Your Honor, I just refreshed my email and it doesn't seem that we have received this summary. But I'm not sure what summary this is. Is this a new summary being submitted? 04:50:20.940 --> 04:50:23.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Dated October 6 from the BIR. 04:50:23.340 --> 04:50:27.200 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: We haven't received it yet, Your Honor. 04:50:27.340 --> 04:50:42.630 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: For the guidance of the defense, Your Honor, it is shown in the email we received that the BIR furnished copy as well to info. at nfslaw.com.ph which I believe is the email of the defense. 04:50:42.630 --> 04:50:42.790 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: May 04:50:42.790 --> 04:50:45.470 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: I know the time? 04:50:45.470 --> 04:50:50.030 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: This was received at 12.14pm 04:50:50.030 --> 04:50:50.930 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: today. 04:50:51.350 --> 04:50:59.570 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: May I ask again, Your Honor, the email address that the lead prosecutor mentioned? 04:50:59.910 --> 04:51:05.190 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: It's info at nfslaw. dot com dot ph. 04:51:05.470 --> 04:51:14.510 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Then that settles it. We will not be able to receive that because that email address is wrong. It's not NFS. It should be FNS. 04:51:14.510 --> 04:51:15.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To settle 04:51:15.270 --> 04:51:29.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the issue, the chair is instructing the clerk of court to kindly furnish attorney Sheila with a copy now with a few hours of delay compared to the 1230 receipt. 04:51:30.390 --> 04:51:43.910 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: May we inquire as well, your honor, if it is appropriate for the prosecution to furnish today a copy of these summaries to the honorable senator judges so that they can browse, study... 04:51:43.910 --> 04:51:45.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The court will be the one to do 04:51:45.050 --> 04:51:46.670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that, honorable ministro. 04:51:46.670 --> 04:51:47.130 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: We 04:51:47.130 --> 04:51:47.870 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: submit, your honor. 04:51:48.290 --> 04:51:49.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: From our copy. 04:51:51.350 --> 04:51:56.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You can easily print one. But, attorney Sheila, you confirm receipt of a hard copy? 04:51:57.070 --> 04:52:01.010 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. I confirm receipt of a document. 04:52:01.010 --> 04:52:16.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I think you have time to go over it. With 20 witnesses. And after the banks and the insurance companies, that's only when the BAR will be presented. I don't even know when that will be. So, yes, Honorable Rizro, what else can we do for you? 04:52:16.450 --> 04:52:19.370 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: We are ready, Your Honor, for the presentation of our next witness. 04:52:20.430 --> 04:52:22.730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, who will handle the presentation of the next witness? 04:52:23.230 --> 04:52:29.930 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: I am yielding right now, Your Honor, to the counsel for the prosecution panel, Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim Alih. 04:52:33.390 --> 04:52:35.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Jay, would that be your nickname? 04:52:35.310 --> 04:52:36.510 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Atty. James, Your Honor. 04:52:36.510 --> 04:52:37.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: James, yes, of course. 04:52:46.710 --> 04:52:54.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Does the respondent already have the sequence of the banks and the witnesses to be presented? Do you already have it? 04:52:54.290 --> 04:52:54.850 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. 04:52:55.370 --> 04:53:12.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, just to confirm, land bank will be first through witness Eunice and witness Raquel. Followed by AUB through Witness RC, Witness Edeli, and Witness Jerilee for the first time. Do you confirm, Atty. Sheila? 04:53:12.760 --> 04:53:13.480 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. 04:53:14.560 --> 04:53:16.460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's see if you can reach that far today. 04:53:19.950 --> 04:53:25.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Who will handle the side of the respondent for these witnesses, Atty. Sheila? 04:53:25.810 --> 04:53:30.150 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: For the respondent, it's going to be Atty. Carlo Joaquin Narvasa, Your Honor. 04:53:33.600 --> 04:53:50.280 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Good morning, good afternoon again, your honor. I beg again your kind indulgence. I am James Brian Ibrahim Ali, counsel for the prosecutors. Your honors, I have the tall task of presenting all the banks listed, your honor. 04:53:50.280 --> 04:53:51.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: All 20? 04:53:52.990 --> 04:53:54.410 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: No, your honor. 04:53:54.410 --> 04:53:56.510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Only the banks, not the insurance companies? 04:53:56.510 --> 04:53:58.330 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, your honor. I couldn't go that far, your honor. 04:53:58.510 --> 04:54:01.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So you're talking only of all? 04:54:01.890 --> 04:54:03.640 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Eight banks, your honor. 04:54:03.640 --> 04:54:04.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: All 13 witnesses. 04:54:05.640 --> 04:54:15.440 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. As discussed during the pre-conference a while ago, we reduced the number to 13 witnesses, Your Honor. 04:54:15.560 --> 04:54:17.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. Attorney CJ, it will be you for the respondent. 04:54:18.040 --> 04:54:19.140 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. Good afternoon. 04:54:19.680 --> 04:54:23.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good afternoon. Okay. Call your first witness, Attorney James. 04:54:23.540 --> 04:54:23.920 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, 04:54:23.960 --> 04:54:24.220 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor. 04:54:30.350 --> 04:54:30.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 04:54:30.830 --> 04:54:41.080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Clerk of Court is instructed to bring Ms. Eunice Sumatra to the witness stand. Kindly assist her. and situate her in the witness stand. 04:54:44.590 --> 04:54:57.430 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, we are calling to, well, upon arrival, we will be calling to the witness stand Ms. Eunice Sumatra, the manager of San Pedro Davao branch of Land Bank of the Philippines. 04:54:58.390 --> 04:55:03.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of Attorney CJ, can Attorney James already make his offer while we're waiting for the witness? 04:55:04.310 --> 04:55:05.170 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Of course, Your Honor. 04:55:05.430 --> 04:55:07.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed with your offer, Attorney James. 04:55:07.630 --> 04:55:36.330 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. Before I proceed with my offer, Your Honor, in order to expedite the proceedings given the number of witnesses and the number of banks that we are about to present, we intend to present all the bank representatives today if possible. Hence, we will be adopting a common offer or purpose for all their testimonies. We may make additional purposes or specific offers at the proper time when we switch the witnesses, but we will have a basic 04:55:39.260 --> 04:55:39.820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So 04:55:39.820 --> 04:55:48.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I guess the basic offer will apply to the first few witnesses and you will increase the offers or add to the offers as you go along? 04:55:48.580 --> 04:56:00.340 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes that's correct your honor and that is also the reason why the order of our witnesses are like that. We will be working our way up to bigger and bigger transactions as we go along. 04:56:00.930 --> 04:56:12.210 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, may we request that the offers be repeated for each and every witnesses because it may be, the objections may be differing for each of them. 04:56:12.310 --> 04:56:13.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For each witness. 04:56:13.250 --> 04:56:13.870 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. 04:56:13.870 --> 04:56:13.950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 04:56:13.950 --> 04:56:18.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it's okay, it's okay. We can listen to the offers. It can be abbreviated as well by Attorney James. 04:56:18.870 --> 04:56:19.170 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank 04:56:19.170 --> 04:56:19.450 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: you, Your Honor. 04:56:19.550 --> 04:56:19.990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before 04:56:19.990 --> 04:56:20.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: we 04:56:20.250 --> 04:56:33.770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: proceed with the offers, since the witness is already here, so that she can be seated. Miss Eunice, manumpa po muna kayo bago kayo mapo. Pakinggan niyo po iyong papanumpaan niyo at sumagot na lamang po kayo ng angkop sa dulo. 04:56:35.980 --> 04:56:51.400 Atty. Marivic Laurel Garcia: Kindly raise your right hand. You, Eunice Sumatra, do swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. 04:56:53.770 --> 04:56:56.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly answer through the mic, Ma'am Eunice. 04:56:56.990 --> 04:56:57.970 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 04:56:58.230 --> 04:57:08.010 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: May I request 04:57:08.010 --> 04:57:11.650 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: also for the exclusion of any other witness? 04:57:12.070 --> 04:57:14.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are there any other witnesses in the gallery? 04:57:16.170 --> 04:57:16.930 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Thank you, Your Honor. 04:57:19.460 --> 04:57:21.040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Meron the 04:57:24.490 --> 04:57:27.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Clerk of Court through the OSA. Can you check? 04:57:34.510 --> 04:57:37.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are all the witnesses in the holding room? 04:57:38.830 --> 04:57:41.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are all the other witnesses in the holding room? 04:57:43.180 --> 04:57:43.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, 04:57:43.780 --> 04:57:50.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the clerk of court confirms that there are no other witnesses in the gallery. They are all in the holding room, Attorney CJ. You may proceed 04:57:50.840 --> 04:57:52.080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: with your offer, Attorney James. 04:57:52.080 --> 04:59:24.240 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, Your Honor. Good afternoon again and good afternoon to our friends from the defense. Your Honor, we are offering this witness to prove the following purposes and I will proceed to the common offer or purposes as I have mentioned a while ago. First, that the witnesses are the duly authorized representatives of the land bank, particularly this one, but later on, Asian United Bank, PS Bank, Metro Bank, Security Bank, BPI, PNB, and BDO. Sila ang authorized representatives ng mga bangko. Kikilalaanin nila at papatunayan ng mga bank records na ang bangko mismo. ang nagsumite sa hukumang ito. Bilang pagsunod, syempre, sa sabbina. Second, the aforementioned entities submitted bank records of the Vice President Zimmerman Duterte, her husband, Atty. Manassas Carpio, and entities in which the spouses maintain business interests to the Honorable Impeachment Court. Number three, the Vice President, together with her husband, Personally maintains at least 30 active bank accounts across 8 banks among others just for the years 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025. Number 4, 04:59:28.650 --> 04:59:57.760 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: based on the bank records, the Vice President and Atty. Carpio's bank accounts have the following total year-end balance for the years 2022, 2023, 2024, at 2025. For 2022, Your Honor, the ending balance of the Vice President and Attorney Carpio's bank accounts 05:00:00.430 --> 05:01:04.550 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: is more than 59 million pesos. For 2023, the year-end balance of the Vice President and her husband, Atty. Carpio is more than 71 million pesos. In 2024, the year-end balance of the Vice President and her husband, Atty. Carpio is more than 22 million pesos. And in 2025, The ending balance of their bank accounts across eight banks is more than 35 million pesos. Number five, when taken together across the years 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025, the vice president and her husband Atony Carpio's bank accounts have a total ending balance of more than 190 million pesos that are not declared in her SALNs. 05:01:07.410 --> 05:01:08.830 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Number 6. 05:01:11.500 --> 05:01:36.160 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Lastly, to prove such other relevant allegations and to identify and authenticate relevant documents. Your Honors, if I may, mga numero lamang po ito. Hindi nagbabago ang mga numero dahil sa politika o sa paulit-ulit. na objection. Kung tama at nagtutugma ang lahat, wala namang dapat ikatakot. 05:01:55.520 --> 05:01:56.540 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: May I proceed now, Your Honor? 05:01:56.640 --> 05:02:02.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, you may proceed. In fact, the Chair was going to make the same inquiry as well. Kindly proceed. 05:02:02.420 --> 05:02:04.680 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, Your Honor. This is just part of our six, Your Honor. 05:02:06.690 --> 05:02:33.260 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Kung tama at nagtutugma ang lahat, wala namang dapat ikatakot. Ipakita lang ng buong-buo at hayaan ng mga dokumento at ebidensya ang magsalita. At kung hindi nagtutugma, hindi na kailangang manakot gamit ang prosekyusyon, media, or korte. Magpaliwanag na lamang. Yan po yung aming offer for today, Your Honor. A common offer for all the banks, Your Honor. Thank you for your graciousness. 05:02:34.740 --> 05:02:36.280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Comment, Atty. CJ. 05:02:36.280 --> 05:02:36.900 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Thank you, 05:02:36.920 --> 05:03:51.070 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor. As to the third offer, Your Honor, as to 30 bank accounts across 8 banks, this offer is improper for this witness as an offer of testimony should be specific to the witness that is going to testify. This witness also would be incompetent as her knowledge would be confined to the Land Bank of the Philippines. As to the fifth, Your Honor, the supposed total of 190 million, this again is improper, Your Honor. This witness would only be competent and her knowledge be confined to the Land Bank of the Philippines. As for the sixth offer, Your Honor, as regards the numbers don't change, Your Honor, this is improper for an offer. No witness can prove that whatever that was, Your Honor. Your Honor, similarly, 05:03:51.070 --> 05:03:52.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly continue. 05:03:52.050 --> 05:04:41.780 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you. And for the first and second and other offers, Your Honor, subject to cross, but we would also like to register our continuing objection to the inclusion examination and the presentation of Atty. Manassas Carpio's bank records. Your Honor, this is pursuant to Section 2 of Republic Act. 1405, which protects the confidentiality of bank deposits, subject, of course, to recognized exceptions. Although impeachment is expressly identified as an exception, Attorney Carpio is not the respondent being impeached, neither is he on trial. Again, Your Honor, we do not request for a ruling. We just wish that the Honorable Court 05:04:43.510 --> 05:04:45.730 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Register our continuing objection. 05:04:46.550 --> 05:05:11.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The continuing objection is duly noted and so registered. Allow the chair to make some comments as well. I believe Attorney James said it is a common offer when he gave the total of 30 bank accounts. However, many bank accounts Ms. Yunis will be testifying to will add up to 30, I guess. 05:05:11.000 --> 05:05:11.500 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, sir. 05:05:11.500 --> 05:05:11.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Correct? 05:05:12.400 --> 05:05:15.120 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: That would have been my response, Your Honor, to the comment. Thank you. 05:05:28.790 --> 05:05:32.570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The ending balance is for 22, 23, 24, and 25. Correct? 05:05:32.570 --> 05:05:32.730 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes. 05:05:32.730 --> 05:05:34.210 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Allow me to clarify, Your Honor. 05:05:34.290 --> 05:05:36.770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, please. Kindly elucidate. 05:05:37.010 --> 05:05:51.390 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you. The important part of that offer, Your Honor, is the last part. That is the qualification of the 190 million, which provides that it is not declared in the SALN. So that is a total not declared in the SALN. 05:05:51.690 --> 05:05:52.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Cumulatively. 05:05:52.410 --> 05:06:09.740 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Certainly, we're not trying to mislead by saying that that is the total amount. That's why the qualifier... At the last portion was important that the 190 million pertains to not declared in the SALN through the years of 2022, 2023, until 2025. 05:06:12.060 --> 05:06:38.320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I also did not catch the purpose of offer 6. Attorney CJ was kind enough to have allowed it. But since it's a common purpose, I guess Attorney CJ... To a certain degree, allow him to make that common offer then and not repeat it over and over again. So that the court need not roll on it over and over again because I will not allow it henceforth. 05:06:39.960 --> 05:06:45.040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So we will leave that as it is right now and we will leave it in the records. 05:06:45.040 --> 05:06:45.280 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright, 05:06:45.380 --> 05:06:45.680 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor. 05:06:46.040 --> 05:06:49.460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly weigh your options in regard to the offer because if it will be the same... 05:06:51.440 --> 05:06:56.560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You wouldn't want that repeated again, at least insofar as offer number 6 is concerned. Would that be correct? 05:06:56.900 --> 05:06:58.460 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor. 05:06:59.020 --> 05:07:32.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, your witness. Subject to cross in regard to the other items of the offer. Your witness, Attorney James, but for the information of the body... The court would like to hear the presiding officer specifically how you will present this witness and will make the corresponding rulings as may be necessary to abbreviate the proceedings given that there are 20 witnesses testifying on basically almost the same thing with varying accounts and with varying bank names. So we will first hear out how this goes and see. What we need to do thereafter. 05:07:33.250 --> 05:07:33.970 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 05:07:33.970 --> 05:07:35.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, Atty. James. 05:07:35.070 --> 05:07:44.870 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, Your Honor. And we have some ways also that we have in mind. Hopefully, in the proceedings, we will be able to also show it. Your Honor, with your kind permission. Good afternoon, sir. 05:07:45.330 --> 05:07:46.150 Eunice C. Sumatra: Good afternoon. 05:07:47.030 --> 05:07:55.190 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, for the record, would you mind telling us your full name and your designation and which bank are you representing? 05:07:55.930 --> 05:08:05.420 Eunice C. Sumatra: Good afternoon, Your Honor. My name is Eunice Sumatra. I'm the branch head of Land Bank San Pedro Davao branch. 05:08:05.900 --> 05:08:16.160 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright. And briefly, as bank head of Land Bank San Pedro Davao, what are your primary functions and responsibilities? 05:08:16.860 --> 05:08:48.510 Eunice C. Sumatra: As branch head, I oversee the operation of the branch. But most of my responsibility would be marketing in nature because I have my branch operations officer who will directly involve in the day-to-day operation of the branch. And also as a branch manager, I see to it that all the procedures are properly executed and the internal control is observed. 05:08:49.440 --> 05:09:00.180 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Before moving forward madam witness if you're comfortable with tagalog or english you may do so or you can mix them also so as long as you can freely express yourself okay 05:09:00.180 --> 05:09:00.700 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: thank 05:09:00.700 --> 05:09:28.930 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: you madam witness the honorable court issued a subpoena dated july 21 2026 addressed to lan bank direct directing it to submit certified true copies of bank records owned by the Vice President Atty. Carpio and or entities in which the spouses have business interests. Insofar as your branch is concerned, do you confirm receiving this subpoena? 05:09:30.100 --> 05:09:31.200 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 05:09:31.440 --> 05:09:35.780 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And what actions have you taken in response to the subpoena? 05:09:36.340 --> 05:09:49.530 Eunice C. Sumatra: We gathered the transaction documents and have it authenticated by me. and submit it to our head office for submission here, Your Honor. 05:09:49.570 --> 05:09:51.890 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright. And the same has been submitted to the Senate? 05:09:52.070 --> 05:09:52.910 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 05:09:53.030 --> 05:10:06.990 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright. Do you confirm, Mr. Witness, that the documents you mentioned that you authenticated insofar as your branch is concerned, these are all copies of authentic bank records? 05:10:07.250 --> 05:10:08.030 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 05:10:08.430 --> 05:10:10.490 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Well, and so far as your branch is concerned, right? 05:10:10.490 --> 05:10:10.750 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, 05:10:10.790 --> 05:10:11.150 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor. 05:10:11.230 --> 05:11:16.410 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright. Your Honor, with the confirmation of the witness that the documents directly submitted to the Honorable Court are authentic bank records, we hope to dispense with asking the witness to go through every document simply to confirm that these are the same documents that the bank submitted. We ground this on two points, Your Honor, if I may. The bank records, first is that the bank records were produced Pursuant to a subpoena and were directly submitted to the Honorable Impeachment Court, not to the prosecution. Similar to how the AMLC documents were presented yesterday and were treated. Second, and equally important, these are common exhibits of the parties. Given these two reasons, Your Honor, we respectfully submit that there is no need to ask the witness to go through each document Nearly to confirm what is not a genuine issue to begin with. And we can ask the more significant questions, Your Honor. 05:11:18.150 --> 05:11:19.170 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, FMA. 05:11:19.170 --> 05:11:19.790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney CJ? 05:11:20.190 --> 05:12:51.050 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, there is proper procedure as regards the identification and authentication of documents. We may have questions regarding specific documents that she may have brought. and your honor as regards common exhibits the designation of documents as common exhibits that not does not compel the defense to agree to any this is actually a stipulation uh veiled veiled stipulation your honor common marking does not by itself constitute an admission or us agreeing to any stipulation on authenticity and identification An acceptance of the truth of these entries or waiver of any objections to admissibility or evidentiary purposes. Your Honor, as regards the subpoena, Your Honor, production pursuant to subpoena does not by that circumstance alone equate to any identification or authentication. Any document can be subpoenaed. That does not mean it is genuine. That does not mean that the party Who is here is the proper party to identify, authenticate, or even explain what those documents are. So I urge the honorable court to follow the procedure laid out for authentication and identification. 05:12:51.050 --> 05:12:51.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 05:12:51.350 --> 05:12:55.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: court will take it at this point in advisement. 05:12:57.430 --> 05:13:25.950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's hear out, let's see how you will do it, Attorney James, with respect to authenticating these bank records. Again, as the court said earlier, we'll see how this pans out and we will make the corresponding adjustments in the subsequent witnesses as we go along. But for the meantime, we will take an advisement, your motion, and the corresponding objection thereto and or counter-manifestation of Attorney CJ, and we'll make the corresponding ruling as soon as we can as we go along. 05:13:26.750 --> 05:13:28.190 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, if 05:13:28.190 --> 05:13:50.550 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I may just add, perhaps to also assist the Honorable Court in that discussion, Your Honor. Insofar as the first issue of the Counsel for the Defense that they will not be allowed to question the authenticity or the documents themselves, I think that is the proper office of the cross-examination and time and again, they have been very... 05:13:52.780 --> 05:14:21.680 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: lenient in exhausting that privilege in cross-examining. So that's not something that can be an issue at a later time. Secondly, Your Honor, this is not without precedent. I don't have to go back to previous trials. I can only go back to yesterday when the AMLC was, the authentication of the AMLC was dispensed with and if I remember it correctly, the Honorable Presiding Officer has mentioned the two conditions that I've mentioned. But again, Your Honor, I'm not expecting a ruling from the Honorable Court. 05:14:23.740 --> 05:14:28.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Just to distinguish 05:14:28.000 --> 05:14:42.520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and to enrich the records, it's quite different because insofar as the MLC and BAR records are concerned, these are public documents. These are private documents. Again, we will take it in advisement. Let's see how this will pan out. Attorney James? 05:14:42.800 --> 05:14:45.600 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Sorry, Your Honor. May I just add last, just briefly, I forgot one more. 05:14:45.600 --> 05:14:46.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, please. 05:14:46.580 --> 05:15:13.340 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: In relation to the common exhibits, Your Honor, this is not merely just a common exhibit. Remember that the documents are certified through copies and insofar as the people involved in the markings are concerned, we did not hear any objection as to whether or not these are certified or not. So these are certified through copies, there were no objections during the marking and these were also marked by the defense. So that will be all, Your Honor. 05:15:13.440 --> 05:15:16.720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Anything for us, Attorney CJ? Yes, please. 05:15:16.720 --> 05:15:18.880 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, the fact 05:15:21.750 --> 05:15:36.430 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Certified true copy is irrelevant, Your Honor. The fact that it is a common exhibit does not mean that we will use these documents. They are the ones introducing it to this trial and that does preclude us from objecting to these. 05:15:38.770 --> 05:15:39.930 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, may we proceed? 05:15:40.770 --> 05:15:42.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted, Attorney CJ. 05:15:42.250 --> 05:15:42.670 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, Your Honor. 05:15:42.670 --> 05:15:47.760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, we take everything in advisement at this point in time. I'm kindly proceed with your direct attorney, James. 05:15:48.020 --> 05:16:03.880 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, at this point, I will be candid because I was only intending to present this witness to authenticate the documents and I would have dispensed her presence here today, Your Honor, in order to save the honorable court some time, Your Honor. I would proceed with other witnesses that would provide more substantial witnesses. 05:16:03.880 --> 05:16:04.040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 05:16:04.040 --> 05:16:07.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: documents would she have authenticated, counsel? 05:16:07.380 --> 05:16:33.610 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: He would have authenticated, Your Honor, for the record, P-Roman numeral 2-8. dash 3 dash 1 dash C dash LBP that is representing land bank of the Philippines your honor for account number 14770989 98 in the name of Sara Zimmerman Duterte. 05:16:35.340 --> 05:16:37.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Only one account, counsel? 05:16:41.150 --> 05:16:46.930 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And a moment your honor. 05:16:52.890 --> 05:16:53.330 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Just 05:16:53.330 --> 05:17:01.090 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: for this witness, your honor, only one account, your honor. And that was the purpose of my manifestation a while ago. Apologies, your honor. 05:17:02.030 --> 05:17:08.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, I see two documents here. 05:17:11.090 --> 05:17:15.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, I see two documents here. One, this is for land bank, right? 05:17:15.910 --> 05:17:16.830 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, your honor. 05:17:16.830 --> 05:17:19.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For San Pedro branch. 05:17:19.830 --> 05:17:21.050 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: San Pedro branch. 05:17:25.900 --> 05:17:35.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For land bank, there's one account in the name of the vice president, there's one account in the name of attorney Carpio, correct? 05:17:36.590 --> 05:17:42.790 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I think the attorney Carpio's account, your honor, is with a different branch, your honor. 05:17:42.890 --> 05:17:47.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, so again, the two accounts refer to the two land bank witnesses, one each. 05:17:47.910 --> 05:17:48.730 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: One each, your honor. 05:17:49.320 --> 05:17:49.960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Why don't you 05:17:49.960 --> 05:17:52.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: proceed, counsel? Let's see what's 05:17:52.140 --> 05:17:52.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in that bank account. 05:17:53.580 --> 05:18:02.180 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Gladly, your honor. But at this point, your honor, may I ask the secretariat if the documents are already here, your honor, so that I can confront the witness. 05:18:02.900 --> 05:18:04.720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly furnish. 05:18:08.710 --> 05:18:10.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's with you already, according to the clerk of court. 05:18:10.850 --> 05:18:14.370 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, your honor. In that case, your honor, may I ask our assisting counsel. 05:18:16.830 --> 05:18:17.450 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Assisting 05:18:17.450 --> 05:18:18.070 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: counsels from 05:18:18.070 --> 05:18:31.010 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: both sides to assist and confront the witness with documents supposedly submitted by their branch to the Honorable Court. Madam Witness, kindly go over this series of documents. 05:18:31.690 --> 05:18:38.590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Assisting counsels from both sides are granted continuing authority to approach the witness in the course of her testimony. 05:18:39.310 --> 05:18:45.230 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, go over this and let us know once you're finished going over this. 05:18:50.210 --> 05:18:50.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, 05:18:50.810 --> 05:18:51.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. CJ? 05:18:52.990 --> 05:18:59.290 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: May I object to this? There's no foundation to what he just asked and did. 05:19:01.110 --> 05:19:03.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Well, you are actually correct, Atty. CJ. 05:19:03.750 --> 05:19:04.010 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. 05:19:04.010 --> 05:19:10.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He jumped like a whole set of questions that should have properly... Again, 05:19:10.920 --> 05:19:16.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: let us go through the process, Atty. James. Forgive me. Thank you for pointing it out, Atty. CJ. 05:19:16.940 --> 05:19:17.200 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, 05:19:17.240 --> 05:19:17.360 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor. 05:19:18.070 --> 05:19:21.130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's go through the process of identification to see how cumbersome 05:19:21.420 --> 05:19:23.260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and 05:19:23.260 --> 05:19:27.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: difficult and painful the process will be. 05:19:27.860 --> 05:19:40.860 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I hope you don't fault me, Your Honor, for trying to abbreviate the proceedings. Madam Witness, do you recall submitting the documents as mentioned in the subpoena? The one that you mentioned a while ago? 05:19:41.180 --> 05:19:42.020 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 05:19:42.060 --> 05:19:46.130 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And if these documents were shown to you? Would you be able to identify this? 05:19:46.410 --> 05:19:47.050 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 05:19:47.330 --> 05:20:07.670 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, our assisting counsel now is showing you documents coming from the court, referring to documents sourced from land bank San Pedro Branch. Can you kindly read over them? And check if these are the documents that you submitted to the Honorable Court. 05:20:08.150 --> 05:20:25.120 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Objection, Your Honor. These are, again, improper procedurally. These documents cannot be lumped together. These documents are very specific and this is improper procedurally under the rules of evidence. 05:20:42.930 --> 05:20:43.410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is 05:20:43.410 --> 05:20:43.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that correct? 05:20:44.070 --> 05:20:46.770 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: As well, Your Honor, as the title or the designation 05:20:46.770 --> 05:20:47.270 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: of the document. 05:20:47.270 --> 05:20:48.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Consisting of 21 pages. 05:20:48.910 --> 05:20:49.490 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, 05:20:49.510 --> 05:20:55.850 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor. P-Roman numeral 2-8-3-2-1-3-LBP. 05:20:56.190 --> 05:20:58.190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, consisting of 21 pages. 05:20:58.550 --> 05:20:58.750 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, 05:20:58.770 --> 05:20:58.910 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your 05:20:58.910 --> 05:21:07.630 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Honor. So there, Your Honor, there lacks a foundation. The Counsel is just supplying all of these to the witness. 05:21:07.990 --> 05:21:10.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'll consider it preliminary to... 05:21:14.270 --> 05:21:15.470 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: May I just add 05:21:15.470 --> 05:22:34.130 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: your honor because this will involve eight banks and we want to set the tone right from the start. This is not a court where we have to authenticate each and everything. Yes, it's an impeachment court. We have to respect it. We have to respect the process. But we cannot go to the same rigors simply because That is the rules of court. That is provided in the rules of court. And that is only suppletorily applied here. At the end of the day, Your Honor, I think that the rules of court should be used in order to expedite, in order to not delay, which we've seen for several times now. So I think that to cling to technicalities on matter that are not even genuinely in issue is counterproductive to the defense, to the prosecution, and I'm sure to the members of the honorable court so I just would like to put that on record at the onset because we will be talking about eight banks your honor 14 witnesses if I'm going to present this your honor as if I'm presenting it in court and trust me I've done and handled a lot of bank cases so I hope you understand where I'm coming from your honor and I hope the members of the court would understand where I'm coming from This is not a genuine issue to begin with. 05:22:34.130 --> 05:22:34.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 05:22:34.250 --> 05:23:05.200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: presiding officer is well familiar of the procedure that needs to be undertaken in order to comply with the rules, having done that also in the past. But as the presiding officer said earlier, I would rather that we go through this long, arduous, or whatever adjective you want to say, painful process, at least for this witness, for the impeachment court and the members of the court to be able to See and appreciate and decide for themselves after this witness. Attorney CJ, you want to make a countermanifestation? 05:23:05.200 --> 05:23:05.640 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. 05:23:05.860 --> 05:24:09.570 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: The rules are there for a reason. The rules are there so that documents can be appreciated as what they are. Your Honor, and when a proper objection arises as regards any... problem or any question regarding these documents it should not be lumped together and this your honor is not procedural this is substantive this goes into the due process rights of my client who is the respondent accused this is a trial which will go into whether she will be acquitted or held guilty for The accusations of the prosecution. And the prosecution should focus on identifying and authenticating their documents and not rush. We are not rushing, Your Honor. That is the point. They should properly do their job according to the rules. 05:24:11.930 --> 05:24:12.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are 05:24:12.530 --> 05:24:13.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you done, Attorney CJ? 05:24:13.530 --> 05:24:14.490 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. 05:24:14.490 --> 05:24:28.820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, Atty. James, kindly proceed accordingly. Let's let the members of the court experience, as you said, how we usually do it in court. Atty. Senator Judge Lacson is recognized. What is your pleasure, sir? 05:24:29.060 --> 05:24:39.460 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you, Mr. President Officer. Ito, land bank of the Philippines. In all likelihood, sweldo po ito. Now, I did some addition, ano? Nag-arithmetik ako. 05:24:39.940 --> 05:24:40.420 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Four 05:24:40.420 --> 05:24:49.990 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: years ito. Ito ba yung 98998? Account number? Sorry, Your Honor. Yung last digits niya, 8998? 05:24:50.870 --> 05:24:51.690 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: 8998, Yes, 05:24:51.710 --> 05:24:52.190 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor. 05:24:52.190 --> 05:25:13.090 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Inad ko po yung 4 years, umabot na mahigit 4 million. Dinibet ko sa 48 months, 102,000 per month. Magkano ba sweldo ng Vice President? 300 plus? Gumastos pa siya, eto na iwan. Ang point ko lang, Mr., ang haba ng diskusyon eh. E sweldo ng Vice President, may guusapan natin siguro? 05:25:13.840 --> 05:25:22.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the record, the salary of a vice president is, given the salary grade, is anywhere between 330,000 to 350,000 per month. 05:25:22.060 --> 05:25:23.880 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pag kinumpit ko nga po itong apat na 05:25:23.880 --> 05:25:25.780 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: taon, 102,000 a month lang eh. 05:25:28.650 --> 05:25:34.030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I think they're starting from the lowest to the biggest, Senator Judge Lacson. That's why this would 05:25:34.030 --> 05:25:34.330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: be the 05:25:34.330 --> 05:25:34.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: lowest. 05:25:34.750 --> 05:26:00.430 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pardon me, counselor. Kung ang point lang is baka mabawasan ng 4 million yung inyong adisyon, e naintindihan naman namin na pag land bank sweldo. Automatic gaya ang pamapasok eh. Baka naman pwedeng bawas-bawasan natin yung araw ng ating pagdinig. Ang ditinggi natin, labing tatlo. Eh isa pa lang, land bang pa lang eh. Anong oras na tayo? Just a suggestion, Mr. President Officer. 05:26:02.720 --> 05:26:03.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 05:26:03.300 --> 05:26:04.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is your pleasure, Attorney James? 05:26:05.120 --> 05:26:49.950 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, I understand fully the Honorable Lacson. That's why precisely, Your Honor, hindi ko nga po balak sanong magtanong dito sa witness. Gusto ko lang pong ipasok na po yung dokumento kasi meron naman po kaming witness later on na magtatahi lahat ng ito through our financial analyst. That's why po kanina ang dami ko pong attempts para po hindi na tayo matali. Sa procedural na diskusyon na hindi naman talaga nag-a-apply strictly sa... So I apologize for my attempt, Your Honor, because the only reason why I'm presenting the land bank representative of San Pedro is to authenticate this, put it in record, and then I will have moved on to my next witness, Your Honor. So I hope you understand, Honorable Lacson. 05:26:50.450 --> 05:26:51.230 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I beg your 05:26:51.230 --> 05:26:55.350 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: indulgence as well of the Honorable Lacson. 05:26:55.350 --> 05:27:35.000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As the chair suggested earlier to attorney James, it might be the fault of the presiding officer for us to go through the process with this particular witness so that we get to see exactly how arduous the process is and will be for us to be able to make adjustments accordingly should it be necessary. So, I recognize the objections being raised by Atty. CJ as well. They are well-founded. However, Atty. James, again, proceed as you have done so in the past as you stated with this witness. And we will try to be patient as well. 05:27:35.240 --> 05:27:36.180 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I'm sorry, Your Honor. 05:27:36.700 --> 05:27:39.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, kindly proceed accordingly, Atty. James. 05:27:39.660 --> 05:27:47.720 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, nabanggit niyo po kanina na meron kayo mga sinubmit na dokumento sa Honorable Court. Ano-ano po ba yung mga dokumentong ito? Kung naalala niyo po. 05:27:49.030 --> 05:27:53.530 Eunice C. Sumatra: The movement of the peril account of the vice president. 05:27:53.850 --> 05:27:57.090 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Ano pong tawag sa dokumento na iyon? Movement of payroll account? 05:27:57.590 --> 05:28:03.010 Eunice C. Sumatra: It's the debit and the credit, your honor. 05:28:03.330 --> 05:28:03.670 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Okay. 05:28:03.850 --> 05:28:09.690 Eunice C. Sumatra: And it's also indicated what particular branch who facilitated that transaction. 05:28:10.310 --> 05:28:12.290 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Okay. Ano pa po ang sinubmit ninyo? 05:28:12.630 --> 05:28:15.210 Eunice C. Sumatra: We also submitted the 05:28:16.730 --> 05:28:22.750 Eunice C. Sumatra: Withdrawal slips, the transactions of the vice president done over the counter, your honor. 05:28:23.800 --> 05:28:25.380 Eunice C. Sumatra: And we 05:28:25.380 --> 05:28:31.420 Eunice C. Sumatra: also submitted outstanding balances year on year, your honor. 05:28:32.040 --> 05:28:43.600 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Okay, so there are three documents or at least categories of documents. So there is the movement of payroll, Withdrawal slips and outstanding again, what was that? 05:28:43.720 --> 05:28:44.860 Eunice C. Sumatra: Outstanding balances. 05:28:45.540 --> 05:28:46.820 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Outstanding balances. 05:28:47.240 --> 05:28:49.700 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yeah, it's certificate of outstanding balances. 05:28:50.100 --> 05:29:02.250 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Certificate of outstanding balances. Okay. And, um, say for example this movement of payroll if this is shown to you would you be able to identify this 05:29:02.250 --> 05:29:02.850 Eunice C. Sumatra: yes 05:29:02.850 --> 05:29:03.410 Eunice C. Sumatra: your honor 05:29:03.410 --> 05:29:03.870 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: okay 05:29:13.090 --> 05:29:15.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ma 05:29:15.780 --> 05:29:18.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 'am Eunice this is for the period covering 05:29:20.890 --> 05:29:23.470 Eunice C. Sumatra: 2017 to 2025, your honor. 05:29:26.600 --> 05:29:30.680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly identify the document if that is the same document you were referring to earlier. 05:29:30.960 --> 05:29:42.380 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Before that, madam witness, before you identify, sorry. Madam witness, ma'am, sorry. Ilan po yung bank accounts ng ating vice president sa branch po ninyo? 05:29:42.620 --> 05:29:46.460 Eunice C. Sumatra: With San Pedro de Val branch, we only have one payroll account. 05:29:46.820 --> 05:29:59.890 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And yung one payroll account na yun, yung mga documents na binanggit nyo, yung tatlong klase. Movement of payroll, withdrawal slips, and certificate of astounding balances correspond to that account. Is that correct? 05:30:00.000 --> 05:30:00.780 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright, 05:30:01.340 --> 05:30:09.740 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: so you may now proceed to check kung yung movement of payroll ba na binabanggit niyo, na sinabit niya sa atin, ayan din ang nandyan. 05:30:46.440 --> 05:30:53.500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Defense marking D, Roman numeral number 2, dash 8, dash 3, dash 2, dash 1, dash 3, LBP as well. 05:30:54.170 --> 05:30:55.390 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you again, Your Honor. 05:31:07.530 --> 05:31:13.910 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: For the record, Your Honor, the witness is intently perusing the documents as instructed, Your Honor. 05:31:14.170 --> 05:31:14.510 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam 05:31:49.390 --> 05:31:51.230 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Witness, have you perused that document? 05:31:51.230 --> 05:31:51.550 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, 05:31:51.550 --> 05:31:51.930 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor. 05:31:51.930 --> 05:32:01.770 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: So, what is the relation of those documents, movement of payroll, to the one that you mentioned you submitted to Donorable Court? 05:32:02.270 --> 05:32:04.910 Eunice C. Sumatra: That was the document, Your Honor. 05:32:05.150 --> 05:32:17.730 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And in the documents, I would have wanted to approach the witness, Your Honor, but my microphone is not working. In the document, Madam Witness, there is a certification. 05:32:19.270 --> 05:32:30.820 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: The assisting counsel can confront the witness with the certification contained in the lower portion, Your Honor. 05:33:05.590 --> 05:33:20.250 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: In the lower portion, rightmost portion of this document that you've identified, there is a signature about the name of AVP Eunice Sumatra. Whose signature is this? 05:33:21.350 --> 05:33:23.450 Eunice C. Sumatra: That is my signature, your honor. 05:33:23.710 --> 05:33:31.730 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And do you confirm madam witness that in all the pages of This document, the same signature appears. 05:33:32.150 --> 05:33:38.430 Eunice C. Sumatra: I confirm that in all of the 21 pages, it's the same signature. It's my signature, Your Honor. 05:33:38.770 --> 05:34:06.960 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And I was about to ask whose signature is this, but you've already mentioned that it's your signature. Alright. For the record, Your Honor, the document that was identified by the witness is previously marked as Exhibit P-2-8-3-1-3- Sorry. P Roman numeral 2-8-3-2-1-3-LBP 05:34:09.260 --> 05:34:15.000 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: consisting of 21 pages and 05:34:16.660 --> 05:34:51.200 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: for the record it is also commonly marked by the defense as P-2 Roman numeral 2 D-R2-8-3-2-1-3-LDP for the same number of pages. Now, Madam Witness, I am showing you now the withdrawal slips that you've mentioned, that 05:34:52.960 --> 05:34:57.800 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: you submitted to the court. Kindly go over these withdrawal slips if you can, please. 05:36:58.900 --> 05:36:59.480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 05:36:59.480 --> 05:37:00.720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: was the question? 05:37:00.720 --> 05:37:08.580 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I was just asking the witness to go through the withdrawal slips. I am under the process of authenticating the same, your honor. 05:37:10.410 --> 05:37:16.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And this is just, hasn't she already authenticated the entire exhibit? 05:37:16.110 --> 05:37:17.710 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: No, Your Honor, that was just 05:37:17.710 --> 05:37:24.820 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: for the movement payroll, Your Honor. 05:37:24.980 --> 05:37:27.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, so this is for the withdrawal slips 05:37:27.880 --> 05:37:28.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and 05:37:28.360 --> 05:37:32.520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: then the third would be the maintaining balances or outstanding balances. 05:37:32.520 --> 05:37:32.980 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 05:37:40.420 --> 05:37:40.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But 05:37:40.900 --> 05:37:44.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: this is still part of the 21 pages, correct? 05:37:45.440 --> 05:37:57.560 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I do not think so, Your Honor. I think the 21 pages only pertains to the movement, the movement payroll, Your Honor. 05:37:57.960 --> 05:37:59.920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The payroll? Just the payroll? 05:37:59.920 --> 05:38:00.080 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, 05:38:00.080 --> 05:38:00.540 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor. 05:38:00.540 --> 05:38:07.240 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, upon perusal of the documents, Your Honor, these are not all withdrawal slips, Your Honor. 05:38:09.850 --> 05:38:25.920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Which one? Now the chair is confused. You only have one marking consisting of 21 pages for this witness. Are you telling me there's another separate pre-marked document for withdrawals? 05:38:26.240 --> 05:38:46.860 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: No, the 21 pages that was identified a while ago. which the witness confirmed was only pertaining to the payroll. Right now, Your Honor, the witness was perusing a series of documents for withdrawal slips, Your Honor. 05:38:47.200 --> 05:38:51.520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As Attorney CJ said, it's not all withdrawals. Attorney CJ? 05:38:51.520 --> 05:38:51.800 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, 05:38:51.800 --> 05:38:52.240 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, correct. 05:38:52.600 --> 05:38:55.200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So what would be included aside from withdrawals in that document? 05:38:55.540 --> 05:38:58.640 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, there are withdrawal slips, check deposit slips, 05:39:00.180 --> 05:39:05.720 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: A painted order document and the like, Your Honor. 05:39:07.820 --> 05:39:09.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, not just withdrawal slips? 05:39:09.600 --> 05:39:15.800 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. So, we object to the question for being misleading, Your Honor. 05:39:17.650 --> 05:39:20.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It was based on the witnesses' answer earlier. 05:39:20.230 --> 05:39:22.390 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. That was about to respond. 05:39:22.390 --> 05:39:26.510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ma'am Eunice, ba't hindi lang po withdrawal ang laman nito tulad ng sinabi niyo kanina? 05:39:26.590 --> 05:39:33.490 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor, my apologies po. Meron po kaming nasamang check deposit slips, Your Honor. 05:39:34.640 --> 05:39:35.620 Eunice C. Sumatra: That was 05:39:35.620 --> 05:39:40.440 Eunice C. Sumatra: submitted also to this honorable court, Your Honor. 05:39:40.640 --> 05:39:42.020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That was also submitted? 05:39:42.020 --> 05:39:42.500 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes. 05:39:42.500 --> 05:39:45.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In the general category of withdrawals? 05:39:47.710 --> 05:39:50.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Tatlo lang po kasi binanggit niyo kanina eh. Payroll, 05:39:50.390 --> 05:39:50.690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: withdrawal, 05:39:50.970 --> 05:39:51.090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and 05:39:51.090 --> 05:39:51.370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: outstanding 05:39:51.370 --> 05:39:51.830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: balances. 05:39:51.950 --> 05:39:54.270 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yeah, I forgot, Your Honor. 05:39:54.910 --> 05:40:00.950 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Precisely, Your Honor, then now the introduction of these documents would lack foundation. 05:40:00.950 --> 05:40:02.150 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Not really, Your Honor. 05:40:02.150 --> 05:40:11.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So kindly, kindly correct, allow me, counsels. So kindly clarify, Attorney, Ma'am Eunice, yung naunan niyo po identify ay payroll, 05:40:11.910 --> 05:40:12.490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ito mong 05:40:12.490 --> 05:40:13.450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: pangalawa 05:40:13.450 --> 05:40:13.770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ay 05:40:13.770 --> 05:40:15.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: withdrawals and what else? 05:40:15.770 --> 05:40:21.750 Eunice C. Sumatra: On us check deposits, Your Honor, the deposit slip and the image of the cheque, Your Honor. 05:40:21.750 --> 05:40:22.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 05:40:22.010 --> 05:40:22.410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: cheque? 05:40:22.750 --> 05:40:24.290 Eunice C. Sumatra: The on us cheque, Your Honor. 05:40:24.670 --> 05:40:26.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What does on us? 05:40:26.130 --> 05:40:29.730 Eunice C. Sumatra: The cheque that was deposited, Your Honor. 05:40:30.050 --> 05:40:34.410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. Ano pa po ang kasama nung kategoryang iyan? 05:40:34.630 --> 05:40:35.730 Eunice C. Sumatra: Iyan po, Your Honor. 05:40:36.010 --> 05:40:36.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Iyan na yan? 05:40:36.370 --> 05:40:37.010 Eunice C. Sumatra: Apo. 05:40:37.010 --> 05:40:37.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 05:40:49.970 --> 05:40:50.490 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: So 05:40:50.490 --> 05:41:05.890 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, dun po sa mga nabanggit ninyo, ano po yung relasyon, dun sa na-identify po ninyo, ano po yung relasyon yan sa mga documents or withdrawal slips and yung nabanggit nyo pang ibang documents na sinubmit nyo sa court na to? 05:41:07.820 --> 05:41:10.620 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: What is the relation of those documents that you've just identified? 05:41:10.880 --> 05:41:15.540 Eunice C. Sumatra: Those documents substantiate the movement of the account. 05:41:16.180 --> 05:41:17.820 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Ano? What I mean is that... 05:41:17.820 --> 05:41:21.940 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Objection, your honor. She already answered the question. 05:41:21.940 --> 05:41:22.280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's the 05:41:22.280 --> 05:41:24.680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: answer of the witness. Ask another question, counsel. 05:41:24.980 --> 05:41:37.080 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright. So doon po, as namin nyo kanina... Okay, thank you, your honor. Diyan po sa mga documents na yan, meron pong withdrawal slips, meron pong checks, unasked checks. 05:41:40.670 --> 05:41:58.630 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: At nabanggit po ninyo na yan yung mga sinubmit ninyo. Tama po ba? Napansin ko din po dun sa mga dokumentong yan, meron po sa baba na certified copy na nakasulat. At meron pong pirma sa taas ng pangalan. Ano po yung pangalan na nakasulat doon? 05:41:58.790 --> 05:42:00.690 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. 05:42:00.690 --> 05:42:02.790 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I haven't asked that question, Your Honor. 05:42:03.130 --> 05:42:06.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is for a different document that we understand, Attorney CJ. 05:42:06.780 --> 05:42:11.820 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: So, anong po? Kanino pong pangalan yung nakasulat doon below the certified true copy portion? 05:42:12.180 --> 05:42:32.480 Eunice C. Sumatra: Okay. So, your honor, yung withdrawal slips po na sinubmit namin does not all happen or transacted in San Pedro Davao branch. So, I only certified, I only signed doon po sa mga documents na doon tina- 05:42:33.110 --> 05:42:33.630 Eunice C. Sumatra: Doon po 05:42:33.630 --> 05:42:43.830 Eunice C. Sumatra: nangyari yung transaction sa San Pedro Davao Branch. Meron po mga withdrawal slips, your honor, na iba pong branch ang nag-certify. 05:42:45.660 --> 05:42:59.360 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: That's fine, your honor. But for those that have, that bear a signature, the certified above the name, what name again was that? Under the certified true copy. Yung mga meron lang pong certification, anong pangalan yung nandoon? 05:43:00.800 --> 05:43:01.320 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: At 05:43:01.320 --> 05:43:04.880 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: sa taas po nun, may signature. Kaninong signature po yan? 05:43:04.880 --> 05:43:06.320 Eunice C. Sumatra: Signature ko po, Your Honor. 05:43:06.320 --> 05:43:07.540 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, Madam Witness. 05:43:10.490 --> 05:43:26.460 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Now, Madam Witness, I would ask the assisting counsel to confront you now with the Certificate of Outstanding Balances which you mentioned. Tama po ba yan? Tama yung word, tama yung description? 05:43:26.940 --> 05:43:27.900 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 05:43:28.120 --> 05:43:30.240 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: May I request for the marking, Your Honor? 05:43:33.120 --> 05:43:38.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's what I was about to ask. Also, the marking for the withdrawals. Do you have a marking already? 05:43:38.300 --> 05:43:39.100 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: We have, 05:43:39.200 --> 05:43:41.820 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, but allow me to check it with us. 05:43:42.640 --> 05:43:53.300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I don't have it with me. I don't have a pre-marked document for that. Ilang pages po yung withdrawal at yung mga checks, Ma'am Eunice? 05:43:55.660 --> 05:43:58.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ma'am Eunice, yung kategoriya po yan, ilang pages po yan? 05:43:59.620 --> 05:44:01.140 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Permission to approach the witness, Your Honor? 05:44:01.140 --> 05:44:01.560 Eunice C. Sumatra: Can 05:44:01.560 --> 05:44:05.260 Eunice C. Sumatra: I have the, Your Honor? May I be allowed? 05:44:05.260 --> 05:44:06.900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am, 05:44:06.920 --> 05:44:07.100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you may. 05:44:08.850 --> 05:44:13.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is already, according to attorney James, this is separate from the 21 pages. 05:44:13.250 --> 05:44:15.190 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: For the 05:44:15.190 --> 05:44:37.160 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: record, your honor, the marking of this document is, this were previously marked as P-2, P-Roman numeral 2, 8-3-2-1-4-LBP. A corresponding marking is also made by the defense. 05:44:39.140 --> 05:44:51.050 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Exhibit D-2-8-3-2-1-4-LBP. Consisting of... 05:44:51.050 --> 05:44:54.010 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: For 05:45:09.780 --> 05:45:14.740 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: the 05:45:18.260 --> 05:45:21.680 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: record, Your Honor, the witness is double checking her submissions. 05:45:24.860 --> 05:45:26.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's supposed to be what? 12 pages? 05:45:28.560 --> 05:45:29.860 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: 12 pages, Your Honor. 05:45:30.220 --> 05:45:30.740 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright. 05:45:45.680 --> 05:45:46.860 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, Madam Witness. 05:45:51.700 --> 05:45:52.220 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Now, 05:45:54.550 --> 05:46:00.780 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, we will be confronting you with the Certificate 05:46:05.320 --> 05:46:15.160 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: of Outstanding Balances that you've mentioned that you've submitted to the Honorable Court. Kindly go over these documents and peruse them if you can, please. 05:46:15.480 --> 05:46:17.600 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, may I request again for the marking? 05:46:18.410 --> 05:46:20.130 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: We will do so in a bit, Your Honor. 05:46:21.620 --> 05:46:33.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: While the witness is perusing it, allow the court, if the court is correct. It will be P-2-8-3-2-1-5-LBP consisting of 26 pages? 05:46:34.570 --> 05:46:35.850 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, confirming that, Your Honor. 05:46:36.090 --> 05:46:47.080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And on the part of the respondent, D-RN-2-8-3-2-1-5-LBP. Would that be correct, Attorney CJ? 05:46:47.640 --> 05:46:49.150 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Correct, Your Honor. 05:46:49.150 --> 05:47:10.070 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, at this point, Your Honor, these are based on the records that we have coming directly from the Senate. But what we have here right now is only the first page of the exhibit that you've mentioned. So, given that this is the first time that we've checked this document, Your Honor, allow us a bit more leeway to check the other remaining pages of this document to complete the authenticating process, Your Honor. 05:47:10.330 --> 05:47:16.800 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, if I may, this is precisely my point, Your Honor. They don't even have the documents to be identified. 05:47:16.800 --> 05:47:17.020 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: It's 05:47:17.020 --> 05:47:17.980 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: with the court, Your Honor. 05:47:17.980 --> 05:47:20.940 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. But please allow me to finish. 05:47:20.940 --> 05:47:21.440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Go 05:47:21.440 --> 05:47:21.620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ahead. 05:47:22.480 --> 05:47:47.490 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, precisely this is why I am asking for the proper procedure of identification and authentication because they don't even have the documents. And their reasoning that it is with the court is of no moment, Your Honor. That is not a reason for not being able or not having documents. For the witness to identify and authenticate. 05:47:47.970 --> 05:47:53.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted, counsel. It will be added in the manifestation in connection with this issue. 05:47:53.310 --> 05:47:54.790 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Thank you, Your Honor. 05:47:54.790 --> 05:47:59.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Clerk of Court informs me that the copies were given to the prosecution already. 05:48:00.510 --> 05:48:01.370 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 05:48:02.130 --> 05:48:02.670 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: However... 05:48:02.670 --> 05:48:04.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Not just the first page. 05:48:04.570 --> 05:48:15.680 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes. That's why, Your Honor, however, this is the first time that we're producing the documents right now, Your Honor, as it was handed to us immediately before this. So allow us a bit of leeway in order to check all this, Your Honor. 05:48:15.800 --> 05:48:33.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Just have her identify it. Again, as stated by Senator Judge Lacson earlier, we're talking of relatively small amounts consisting of payroll. In fact, less than payroll. 05:48:35.930 --> 05:48:36.990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As maintaining balances. 05:49:05.710 --> 05:49:09.470 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: to the one that you've mentioned. And what do you call this document, if you can? 05:49:10.940 --> 05:49:31.610 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor, this document, based on the series of account numbers, are accounts of Davao Recto Branch, which is not my account, which is not my branch, rather. But I am familiar with the signature of the branch head. 05:49:31.610 --> 05:49:31.870 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, 05:49:31.950 --> 05:49:32.290 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: there was 05:49:32.290 --> 05:49:32.770 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: no question. 05:49:32.930 --> 05:49:34.130 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: May I ask that it be? 05:49:35.770 --> 05:49:35.850 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: It 05:49:35.850 --> 05:49:38.890 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: was the answer of the witness, Your Honor. There was no question. 05:49:39.870 --> 05:49:46.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, stricken off, kindly be responsive, Ma'am Eunice, only to what we just asked of you. Kindly proceed, Attorney James. 05:49:47.210 --> 05:49:54.410 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Okay, Madam Witness, relax lang po. Relax lang po. Medyo ano lang talaga yung authentication process, Ma'am. 05:49:56.330 --> 05:50:03.590 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: So, sabi ko nga po, ito pong nabanggit ninyo, yung year-end balance na in-identify nyo. And I'm also showing it to our 05:50:05.450 --> 05:50:37.200 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: assisting defense lawyer, your honor. So, eto po, nakasulat dito, year-end balances of accounts from December 31, 2007 to December 2025. Nakasulat po dito, prepared by Marilu Mequilla at noted by Raquel U. de la Serna, branch head. Eto pong dito sa noted by, above the name Raquel U. de la Serna. Kanina pong signature ito kung alam niyo po? 05:50:38.000 --> 05:50:42.380 Eunice C. Sumatra: Signature po yan ni branch head Raquel U. de la Serna, your honor. 05:50:42.700 --> 05:50:45.640 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: At paano naman, paano niyo po nalaman na signature niya yun? 05:50:46.780 --> 05:51:17.760 Eunice C. Sumatra: We are familiar with the signature of the other branch officers because we maintain signatures of the authorized signatories of other branches for us to verify especially when they issue a manager's check and Of course, I've been with the bank and Ms. Raquel also with the bank for so long. So, we have these documents that we see each other's signature, Your Honor. 05:51:17.760 --> 05:51:18.120 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank 05:51:18.120 --> 05:51:30.410 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: you, Madam Witness. Because you're confirming these documents, may I know, Mr. Madam Witness, kung ilang pages po ba itong sinubmit niyo? Or ito lang po ba yun? Would you know? 05:51:30.770 --> 05:51:33.280 Eunice C. Sumatra: Hindi. Hindi kasi ako nagsubmit nito sir. 05:51:33.520 --> 05:51:34.480 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Okay, that's fine. 05:51:35.850 --> 05:51:36.330 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: But 05:51:36.330 --> 05:51:38.150 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: could you confirm that this came from your bank? 05:51:39.270 --> 05:51:42.350 Eunice C. Sumatra: For land bank, you mean? Not for San Pedro branch. 05:51:42.590 --> 05:51:43.290 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: But from land bank? 05:51:43.510 --> 05:51:45.550 Eunice C. Sumatra: Land bank. I know Ma'am Raquel. 05:51:45.910 --> 05:52:04.460 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Okay, that's enough Madam Witness. For the record, Your Honor, this is Exhibit P-2-8-3-4-2-5-LBP, a common exhibit of the defense, again. D-R2-8-3-4-2-5-LPP 05:52:04.460 --> 05:52:05.960 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Noted, 05:52:07.750 --> 05:52:08.570 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your 05:52:08.570 --> 05:52:08.830 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Honor. 05:52:08.990 --> 05:52:09.870 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, 05:52:10.010 --> 05:52:20.070 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I am about to end. Other than these documents, meron po ba kayong sinubmit sa Honorable Court kung meron man? Doon sa mga na-identify niyo, meron pa po ba? 05:52:22.510 --> 05:52:27.930 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yung year-end balances issued by our branch, Your Honor. 05:52:28.170 --> 05:52:28.510 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Okay. 05:52:29.150 --> 05:52:29.670 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Sige. 05:52:29.770 --> 05:52:35.810 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Allow us to get a copy of that through the copies that we got from the court. 05:53:00.690 --> 05:53:02.410 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Can you just look for the 05:53:02.410 --> 05:53:03.910 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: year 05:53:03.910 --> 05:53:06.050 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: -end Madam Witness that you've mentioned? 05:53:08.280 --> 05:53:10.140 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Do you 05:53:30.710 --> 05:53:31.190 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: have it with you now? 05:53:31.370 --> 05:53:37.130 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor, I also have submitted this bank certificate of... 05:53:40.210 --> 05:53:43.550 Eunice C. Sumatra: of the companies, name of the companies, which is certified. 05:53:44.110 --> 05:54:06.810 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Before the witness answers, the prosecution manifested that they were giving her a specific document, but in fact, they had given her a different document not mentioned by the witness. This is precisely what I'm saying, Your Honor. The authentication and identification process is of 05:54:06.810 --> 05:54:09.180 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: vital importance. 05:54:09.180 --> 05:54:13.040 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, just to, you know, disallay any issues about that. 05:54:13.280 --> 05:54:15.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We're talking of outstanding balances, right? 05:54:15.120 --> 05:54:18.180 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. And as I mentioned... 05:54:18.180 --> 05:54:18.280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So what 05:54:18.280 --> 05:54:20.800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: are you referring to to be different, Atty. CJ? 05:54:20.800 --> 05:54:20.880 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your 05:54:20.880 --> 05:54:29.100 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Honor, she was just handed a certification. which was different from what the question elicited, Your Honor. 05:54:29.100 --> 05:54:29.560 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: No, Your Honor. 05:54:29.660 --> 05:54:38.080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I believe the three categories of documents were payroll, withdrawal, which she clarified, and certification as the outstanding balances. 05:54:38.500 --> 05:54:39.020 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Yes, Your Honor. 05:54:39.080 --> 05:54:39.940 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: That was not 05:54:39.940 --> 05:54:40.640 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: one of the... 05:54:40.640 --> 05:54:43.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is that what she has now? Attorney James? 05:54:43.160 --> 05:54:57.160 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: No, Your Honor. If the good counsel was Lisa Nawalagong, my question was that. I'm giving her the documents, Your Honor, that we got from the court, and I was asking her to... Look which one of those documents for the year-end balance. And I would only proceed... 05:54:57.160 --> 05:54:58.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So she has not yet pointed it out? 05:54:58.940 --> 05:54:59.760 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Exactly, Your Honor. 05:54:59.760 --> 05:55:00.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 05:55:00.360 --> 05:55:23.580 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And just to counter-manifest, Your Honor, lest we let it slide, Your Honor. As I mentioned a while ago, the witness has confirmed the documents to be authentic again and again. And that only lends credence to my argument a while ago. That is not even a genuine issue to begin with. But nonetheless, Your Honor, we will just proceed. Madam Witness. 05:55:23.580 --> 05:55:23.920 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, 05:55:23.940 --> 05:55:24.080 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: if I 05:55:24.080 --> 05:55:44.660 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: may before that. Of course not, Your Honor. This is, so many problems have arisen in the process of authentication of the prosecution. And he insists that it is not important. And yet, the reality provides otherwise. Which problem was that? Continue. 05:55:46.800 --> 05:55:52.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Councils, please. Again, let's not belabor the point. Let's not make it more difficult than it already is. 05:55:52.860 --> 05:55:54.400 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 05:55:54.400 --> 05:55:56.640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's move on. Ma'am Eunice, 05:55:58.370 --> 05:55:58.870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may 05:55:58.870 --> 05:56:02.030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: binigay po ba sa inyo yung dokumento? Yung baboy yung tinutukoy yung dokumento kanina? 05:56:02.090 --> 05:56:10.150 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, are you okay? Medyo nahirap. Inupo kayo ng tubig. Di po kami nag-aaway. Talagang ganun maglambingan yung mga abogado. 05:56:14.650 --> 05:56:17.930 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor, my apology for the second time. 05:56:19.530 --> 05:56:33.100 Eunice C. Sumatra: I issued a certificate also, apart from what I have mentioned. I also issued a certificate of 20 corporations. 05:56:41.350 --> 05:56:52.030 Eunice C. Sumatra: I issued a certificate that these companies do not have an account with Land Bank San Pedro Branch. I acknowledge this certification, Your Honor. 05:56:52.330 --> 05:56:55.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So that's not... with respect to the outstanding balances 05:56:55.420 --> 05:56:56.100 Eunice C. Sumatra: yes your 05:56:56.100 --> 05:56:56.400 Eunice C. Sumatra: honor 05:56:56.400 --> 05:56:59.400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: okay so that's not what the what the council is referring to okay so 05:56:59.400 --> 05:57:08.380 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: yeah kindly go over those documents madam witness uh and if you can find the document that you've just mentioned a while ago so we can authenticate it 05:57:08.380 --> 05:57:08.920 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: your 05:57:08.920 --> 05:57:09.100 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: honor 05:57:09.100 --> 05:57:23.560 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: this is improper procedure handing the witness a stack of documents and trying to find which one she actually issued Cannot be done, your honor. Can I object to this, your honor? 05:57:23.880 --> 05:57:39.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel asked for leeway, attorney CJ. The court is inclined to give it, given that he may have relied on the leniency of the court with this witness. 05:57:41.580 --> 05:57:46.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, the court will give him leeway. Kindly give him leeway as well, attorney CJ. 05:57:46.580 --> 05:57:46.780 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: I 05:57:46.780 --> 05:57:49.360 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: will, your honor. In this regard. 05:58:49.460 --> 05:58:56.180 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, for the record, the witness was unable to locate the document asked for. 05:58:56.720 --> 05:58:58.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is on the outstanding balances. 05:58:58.880 --> 05:58:59.320 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Correct, 05:58:59.460 --> 05:58:59.660 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor. 05:58:59.800 --> 05:59:06.320 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: That's fine, Your Honor. Just those documents that you've mentioned, ano yung mga nandun sa documents na yun, Madam Witness? 05:59:06.320 --> 05:59:06.440 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your 05:59:06.440 --> 05:59:07.740 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Honor, objection vague. 05:59:09.560 --> 05:59:10.740 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: That's not vague, Your Honor. 05:59:10.740 --> 05:59:13.960 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: The militias was just handed a clump of documents. Your 05:59:13.960 --> 05:59:17.440 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Honor, exactly. Ano yung mga nandun sa 05:59:17.440 --> 05:59:20.840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I don't know how one would answer that. 05:59:21.140 --> 05:59:22.900 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Well, let's try, Your Honor. Maybe the witness can. 05:59:24.620 --> 05:59:30.720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The witness indeed mentioned certification on outstanding balances. 05:59:33.850 --> 05:59:35.310 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright, Your Honor, I will... 05:59:35.310 --> 05:59:36.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly 05:59:36.250 --> 05:59:44.360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: answer if you know, Madam Witness, Ms. Eunice. We're referring to the outstanding balances certification that you issued. 05:59:48.520 --> 05:59:54.560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Documents are being handed to the witness again. Are these the documents you're referring to, Ms. Eunice? 05:59:55.000 --> 05:59:55.500 Eunice C. Sumatra: I 05:59:58.120 --> 05:59:59.340 Eunice C. Sumatra: have not seen the certificate. 06:00:03.060 --> 06:00:11.580 Eunice C. Sumatra: In here are the withdrawal slips, the one I mentioned earlier, the checked images. 06:00:11.580 --> 06:00:12.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 06:00:12.140 --> 06:00:22.420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: don't have, Madam Miss Eunice, you don't have to give us a blow-by-blow account of what you're seeing, just if you've seen the certification and understanding balances. 06:01:21.120 --> 06:01:26.460 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor. I do not see the certificate of outstanding balance, Your Honor. 06:01:26.640 --> 06:01:28.340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I don't understand, Attorney James. 06:01:30.220 --> 06:01:32.920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Indeed, you're using the court's copy. 06:01:32.920 --> 06:01:33.860 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 06:01:33.860 --> 06:01:39.240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But you pre-marked this document. Why can't you simply refer to the pre-marked document and show it to the witness? 06:01:40.450 --> 06:01:48.290 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, allow me, Your Honor. The statement of the witness pertaining to the certificate of outstanding balance is... 06:01:48.890 --> 06:01:52.530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, you've had a copy of these documents. Both parties have had copies 06:01:52.530 --> 06:01:54.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: of these documents. 06:01:54.230 --> 06:02:01.150 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: It's not among the documents, your honor. But because that was the answer of the witness, the rules would require me to... It's 06:02:01.150 --> 06:02:04.350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: not among the documents that was subpoenaed by this court? 06:02:04.570 --> 06:02:27.530 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, your honor. No, no, it was not submitted by this bank, your honor. But because it was answered that way by the witness, I was obliged to follow that line of questioning and perhaps... At this point, determined that it was indeed not included. And I have to do this again and again because I have to go through the answers of the witness, Your Honor. And this is the process that we have to go through. 06:02:27.530 --> 06:02:27.950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So are 06:02:27.950 --> 06:02:28.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you done? 06:02:28.810 --> 06:02:29.590 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 06:02:29.890 --> 06:02:34.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are you done showing and proving that it's not one of the documents submitted by the land bank? 06:02:34.750 --> 06:02:35.110 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 06:02:35.110 --> 06:02:36.450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Those standing balances? 06:02:36.450 --> 06:02:37.090 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 06:02:37.490 --> 06:02:38.150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly proceed. 06:02:40.220 --> 06:02:52.010 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: With that, Your Honor, that would be all the documents submitted by the land bank, Your Honor. And we will land bank San Pedro. And we will be dispensing with Ma'am Eunice this afternoon, Your Honor. 06:02:55.070 --> 06:02:56.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You're done with your direct? 06:02:56.610 --> 06:02:57.290 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 06:02:58.950 --> 06:03:01.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I hope you don't have any cross, Atty. CJ, do you? 06:03:01.690 --> 06:03:02.370 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: I do, Your Honor. 06:03:03.910 --> 06:03:07.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I was afraid of that. You may proceed, Atty. CJ. 06:03:07.870 --> 06:03:08.250 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Good 06:03:08.250 --> 06:03:08.890 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: afternoon, Ma'am. 06:03:12.050 --> 06:03:17.970 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Ma'am, you're appearing today only as the representative of the Land Bank of the Philippines, San Pedro branch. 06:03:18.070 --> 06:03:18.910 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 06:03:19.150 --> 06:03:20.490 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: This is in Davao City, correct? 06:03:20.610 --> 06:03:21.230 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 06:03:22.150 --> 06:03:25.730 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: And your testimony is limited only to bank records, correct? 06:03:25.890 --> 06:03:26.770 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 06:03:27.110 --> 06:03:28.750 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: How long have you held this position? 06:03:29.810 --> 06:03:33.290 Eunice C. Sumatra: As branch manager, for 15 years. 06:03:33.470 --> 06:03:33.990 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: 15 years. 06:03:34.310 --> 06:03:39.450 Eunice C. Sumatra: But for Land Bank San Pedro, it's two and a half years, Your Honor. 06:03:40.170 --> 06:03:47.110 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Thank you. Ma'am, the Land Bank of the Philippines is a government financial institution, correct? 06:03:47.370 --> 06:03:48.570 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 06:03:48.570 --> 06:03:49.090 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: And 06:03:49.090 --> 06:03:55.410 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: it provides banking services to government agencies as well as individual depositors. 06:03:55.410 --> 06:03:55.830 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, 06:03:55.830 --> 06:03:56.090 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor. 06:03:56.110 --> 06:03:56.270 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor, 06:03:56.290 --> 06:03:57.030 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: objection. What 06:03:57.030 --> 06:04:01.030 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: is the relevance of this question, Your Honor? I have to object on relevance, Your Honor. 06:04:01.110 --> 06:04:02.750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Well, she already answered, counsel. 06:04:04.790 --> 06:04:09.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Miss Eunice, pakihintay po ng kahit ilang segundo lang. 06:04:09.910 --> 06:04:10.830 Eunice C. Sumatra: Sorry, your honor. 06:04:10.830 --> 06:04:20.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pulitin ko po, hindi naman po sila nag-aaway. Hindi niyo po yan kasalanan, baga man kagagawan niyo, pero... Biro lang po. 06:04:22.090 --> 06:04:27.210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly just give a few seconds for the opposing counsel to object if he has any before answering. 06:04:27.210 --> 06:04:27.430 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, 06:04:27.430 --> 06:04:27.590 Eunice C. Sumatra: sir. 06:04:27.670 --> 06:04:28.430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, ma'am. 06:04:28.750 --> 06:04:35.210 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Ma'am, your services include deposit accounts and payroll services, among others, correct? 06:04:36.490 --> 06:04:37.370 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, your honor. 06:04:38.230 --> 06:04:39.250 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Ma'am, this... 06:04:42.060 --> 06:04:53.260 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: This account number 1477-0989-98 belongs to the Vice President Sara Duterte, correct? 06:04:53.760 --> 06:04:57.900 Eunice C. Sumatra: Your Honor, can I refer to my record? 06:04:59.610 --> 06:05:01.290 Eunice C. Sumatra: Can I be allowed, Your Honor? 06:05:01.630 --> 06:05:02.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, ma'am, you may. 06:05:16.760 --> 06:05:17.740 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yes, Your Honor. 06:05:19.600 --> 06:05:21.100 Eunice C. Sumatra: I confirm, Your Honor. 06:05:21.750 --> 06:05:26.690 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Ma'am, her salary from the government is credited to this amount. Would you know this? 06:05:28.950 --> 06:05:29.590 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Her 06:05:29.650 --> 06:05:32.430 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: salary from the government is credited to this account? 06:05:32.430 --> 06:05:33.930 Eunice C. Sumatra: Yeah, the payroll, your honor. 06:05:34.290 --> 06:05:34.910 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: These 06:05:39.040 --> 06:05:45.440 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: credits, where these amounts are coming from, can be seen by the San Pedro branch, correct? 06:05:48.390 --> 06:06:00.950 Eunice C. Sumatra: If the validation is CM payroll, your honor, it's the agency who will prepare the payroll and we will just upload in our system the payroll. 06:06:02.780 --> 06:06:06.900 Eunice C. Sumatra: The amounts that will be credited to the employees, Your Honor. 06:06:07.040 --> 06:06:08.600 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: But that can be seen? 06:06:08.600 --> 06:06:09.120 Eunice C. Sumatra: If 06:06:09.120 --> 06:06:12.560 Eunice C. Sumatra: we will check it one by one, Your Honor. 06:06:12.640 --> 06:06:13.560 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: It can be? 06:06:13.820 --> 06:06:14.480 Eunice C. Sumatra: It can be. 06:06:16.020 --> 06:06:24.300 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: And the balance shown here that you said you identified, is the amount remaining after the credits and debits? 06:06:24.960 --> 06:06:54.020 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Objection. Sorry, Your Honor, I have to object. This is beyond the scope of the debit examination. The prosecution... has presented this witness only to authenticate because we want to fast track and to expedite the authentication of all these documents, Your Honor, including other banks, Your Honor. So if we're going to have, well, understand that there is leeway in cross-examination, but there cannot be an unbridled authority to ask anything and everything under the sun. Otherwise, Your Honor, we might waste... 06:06:56.430 --> 06:06:57.790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It also 06:06:57.790 --> 06:07:08.270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: opens up the possibility of attorney CJ asking the wrong question and eliciting an answer that he may not desire given the limited scope of the testimony. 06:07:08.270 --> 06:07:08.530 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Correct Your 06:07:08.530 --> 06:07:08.690 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Honor. 06:07:08.810 --> 06:07:14.280 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: However, he asked and identified withdrawal slips, Your Honor. 06:07:14.280 --> 06:07:14.580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, 06:07:14.680 --> 06:07:23.120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it was part of what was identified. But anyway, again, at Attorney CJ's peril, you may proceed, Attorney CJ. 06:07:23.120 --> 06:07:23.940 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: We submit, Your Honor. 06:07:23.940 --> 06:07:26.280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, given the limited testimony of the witness. 06:07:30.230 --> 06:07:31.590 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: No further questions, Your Honor. 06:07:33.190 --> 06:07:35.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Any redirect? 06:07:35.310 --> 06:07:40.050 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: I was about, Your Honor, but I'll just let it go, Your Honor. No, redirect, Your Honor. Thank you. 06:07:41.210 --> 06:07:50.770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I guess the manifestation of Senator Judge Lacson would apply to the Senator judges, if I'm not mistaken. Given that it is payroll, you're 06:07:52.370 --> 06:08:11.510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: giving me a thumbs up sign. Senator Judge Erwin, not raising your hand, I hope. Thank you. Ma'am, salamat po. Ma'am Eunice, sa inyong pagdalo, sa inyong panahon, pasensya, pagbiyahe patungo dito at pagsagot sa katanungan ng mga magkabilang partido. Thank you for your participation and your patience. Thank you, ma'am, your excuse. 06:08:17.380 --> 06:08:20.140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's do one more. Let's finish land bank at the very least. 06:08:22.060 --> 06:08:25.180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I presume this is no longer payroll, attorney James? 06:08:25.180 --> 06:08:26.340 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, your honor. 06:08:26.340 --> 06:08:30.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly have your assisting counsels prepare the documents for this witness. 06:08:30.880 --> 06:08:31.360 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: On that 06:08:31.360 --> 06:08:34.340 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: note, your honor, in order to make it more smooth or 06:08:34.340 --> 06:08:34.980 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: smoother, 06:08:35.080 --> 06:08:40.320 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: can we ask for a short recess, your honor, so that we can arrange everything, including the documents that we 06:08:40.320 --> 06:08:40.660 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: just checked? 06:08:40.720 --> 06:08:40.740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, chair 06:08:40.740 --> 06:08:42.320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: declares a 15-minute recess. 06:08:42.320 --> 06:08:42.740 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Thank you, your honor. 06:50:57.460 --> 06:51:26.880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the information of the senator judges and the parties, during the recess, the presiding officer undertook to discuss the matter at hand with the council for the parties with a view to making the process less arduous and painful. And we arrived at an agreement which the chair would like 06:51:28.670 --> 06:51:30.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To make of record, 06:51:33.050 --> 06:51:56.170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: before we call on the next witness, by the way, for the information of the body, we will only be calling one more witness for today, the other representative from Land Bank, and shall call it a day. We will try the new arrangement with this witness and proceed hopefully already like clockwork tomorrow with this new procedure. 06:51:58.890 --> 06:52:07.490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, kindly call your next witness, rather, Atty. James, so that we can try to adopt our procedure for this next witness. 06:52:07.830 --> 06:52:08.430 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 06:52:13.250 --> 06:52:16.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is Ms. Raquel de la Serna, correct? 06:52:16.370 --> 06:52:17.090 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 06:52:17.090 --> 06:52:17.570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 06:52:17.570 --> 06:52:24.230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Clerk of Court, through those eyes, directed to kindly situate Ms. Raquel de la Serna to the witness stand. 06:52:24.670 --> 06:52:28.950 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor, with regard to the earlier manifestation of 06:52:30.640 --> 06:52:36.200 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Atty. James, we will just adopt the objections to his offer, 06:52:36.340 --> 06:52:37.100 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your Honor. 06:52:37.100 --> 06:52:41.940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, it'll be the same offer. If it's the same offer, it's the same objections and manifestations. 06:52:42.480 --> 06:52:43.320 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. I 06:52:43.320 --> 06:52:44.880 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: confirm that it's the same offer, Your Honor. 06:52:44.880 --> 06:52:45.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, 06:52:45.160 --> 06:53:04.380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: let it be made of record that it is the same offer for this witness as with the first witness, Witness Eunice. And for the record also, it'll be the same objections, reservations, and their manifestations on the part of the respondent for this new witness, Ms. Raquel. 06:53:11.800 --> 06:53:30.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ms. Raquel, bago po kayo mo po, pakisundan lamang po, pakinggan yung panunumpang bibigkasin ng Clerk of Court at sumagot na lamang po kayo sa dulo ng inyong karampatang sagot. The Clerk of Court will please administer the oath. 06:53:31.260 --> 06:53:45.540 Atty. Marivic Laurel Garcia: Kindly raise your right hand. You, Raquel de la Serna, do swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God. 06:53:48.360 --> 06:53:51.510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly answer through the mic, Ma'am Raquel. 06:53:51.510 --> 06:53:51.950 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, 06:53:51.970 --> 06:53:52.170 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Your 06:53:52.170 --> 06:53:52.630 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Honor. 06:53:52.630 --> 06:53:53.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Ma 06:53:53.010 --> 06:53:53.730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 'am. Kindly sit down. 06:53:55.500 --> 06:54:01.460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Naunawaan po niyo, Ma'am Raquel, yung inyong pinanumpahan? Kaugnay sa testimonyang bibigay po niyo sa hukumang ito? 06:54:01.760 --> 06:54:02.580 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, Your Honor. 06:54:03.370 --> 06:54:16.450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, ma'am. Now, before we proceed, the offer has been made and the manifestation and comment on the offer has already been made already of record by both parties for this witness. The court would like to state the following. 06:54:19.410 --> 06:55:47.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The records to be identified by this witness, limited by what is contained in the inventory of documents. that were signed by the parties on various dates were produced directly by land bank which has natural and regular custody of them pursuant to the subpoenas issued by the court. They were officially delivered to the court without passing through an interested party or private intermediary. The clerk recorded, inventoried, safeguarded, and reproduced the submissions for use in these proceedings. Taken together, the institutional returns to the subpoenas, the documented receipt, and protected custody of the source records, and the court supervised reproduction establishes the provenance of such records. The court is mindful. of Republic v. Marcos, GR 17-1701, which held that PCGG's collection and custody of private documents did not convert them into public records or without more authenticate them, particularly where only unauthenticated copies were presented. 06:55:49.460 --> 06:57:49.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hence, the Court relies not on custody alone but the records' direct production by the institutional custodians pursuant to the subpoena Their documented receipt and safekeeping by the clerk of court, their availability for inspection, and their court-supervised reproduction. Collectively, these circumstances establish records of provenance only, identity, and integrity, as well as fidelity of the copies. In addition, under Rule 4, Section 1 of the Rules and Evidence, an electronic document is regarded as equivalent of an original under the original document rule when its print When it is a printout of other or other output readable by sight or other means and shown to reflect the data accurately. To the extent that any record independently qualifies as an official record and is entitled to a presumption of regularity, that presumption is rebuttable and does not establish the truth or accuracy of every entry. Upon a specific substantial showing of fraud, falsification, material alteration, irregularity, incompleteness, palpable mistake, Unreliable method of preparation of breaking the chain of custody or lack of personal knowledge or material inconsistency with other evidence. The respondent or any other party may challenge the record's admission, seek the exclusion or limitation of the disputed entries, and request the appearance of appropriate custodian or other qualified witness as the case may be during cross-examination or during. The formal offer of evidence. In other words, we are not depriving the respondent of any of its available rights to question the authenticity of the documents but are simply trying to abbreviate the proceedings if there are no allegations nor claims of fraud, palpable mistake in the preparation of the documents in order to abbreviate the proceedings on these witnesses which are similarly situated. 06:57:51.670 --> 06:57:56.110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, kindly proceed accordingly, Atty. James, and let's see how this goes. 06:57:56.470 --> 06:58:01.050 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Noted, Your Honor. Under the same offer, permission to proceed, Your Honor. Madam Witness, 06:58:01.230 --> 06:58:15.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'm sorry, Atty. James, with your indulgence. The clerk is instructed to kindly inform the representatives of the other banks that they may rest for the day. Imbis na maghintay pa po sila, they can rest for the day. 06:58:17.580 --> 06:58:37.370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: They're still covered by a subpoena for tomorrow. And to kindly inform them to be here for subpoena at 10 a.m. And hopefully, we shall be able to go through most if not all of the witnesses by tomorrow. The Clerk of Court is so directed. 06:58:38.450 --> 06:58:44.150 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Permission to proceed, Your Honor. Thank you, Pa. Good afternoon, Madam Witness. 06:58:44.150 --> 06:58:44.430 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Good 06:58:44.430 --> 06:58:45.010 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: afternoon, sir. 06:58:45.910 --> 06:58:54.750 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: So, for the record, could you provide us your full name, designation, and what branch or bank are you representing, please? 06:58:55.650 --> 06:59:06.110 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Good afternoon, everyone. I am Raquel [unclear] Dela Cerna, branch manager of Davao R. Magsaysay, Land Bank Davao R. Magsaysay branch. 06:59:06.840 --> 06:59:13.160 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And as the branch manager of Davao R. Magsaysay 06:59:13.160 --> 06:59:13.620 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: of 06:59:13.620 --> 06:59:18.840 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Landbank, what are your primary functions and responsibilities? 06:59:19.720 --> 06:59:52.440 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Being the branch manager of a particular branch, I am responsible to overlook or to supervise the operation of the branch as well as make sure that the Internal control or the guidelines, the policies and guidelines of the bank is strictly implemented. However, much of my work is on the marketing side, sir. We have a branch operation officer and branch service officer who directly, who have a direct supervision of all the daily transactions of the branch. 06:59:52.800 --> 07:00:09.870 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Alright. Based on your records that you've submitted to the court and this pursuant to the ruling of the How many accounts does the Vice President or Atty. Manasseh Scarpio have in your branch? 07:00:12.980 --> 07:00:23.420 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: We had two accounts of PVSARA which are now closed and one of Atty. Manases Carpio. 07:00:23.680 --> 07:00:33.190 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: You mentioned that the two accounts of the Vice President are now closed. How about the third one of Atty. Carpio? What is the status of that account? 07:00:33.830 --> 07:00:38.630 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: The account of Atty. Manasseh is still current or active. 07:00:39.370 --> 07:00:47.190 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: And for the record, could you just provide us the last four digits of that bank account for our reference? 07:00:48.410 --> 07:00:53.310 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Can I look on my file, sir? Because I could not remember the number. 07:00:53.570 --> 07:00:53.710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may 07:00:53.710 --> 07:00:54.310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: do so, ma'am. 07:01:03.790 --> 07:01:09.690 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: The last four number of Atty. Manases is 2730. 07:01:12.030 --> 07:01:23.030 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Madam Witness, based on your records, what is the year-end balance of the account of Atty. Manases Carpio for 2022? 07:01:24.750 --> 07:01:33.250 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: I have here in my record sir, for year end 2022, 505,517.35 centavos. 07:01:33.330 --> 07:01:34.290 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Can you go slowly madam? 07:01:34.370 --> 07:01:35.110 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Sorry po. 07:01:36.370 --> 07:01:37.210 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Year 07:01:37.620 --> 07:01:44.860 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: end December 2022 is 505,517.35. 07:01:46.260 --> 07:01:58.020 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: How about for the year 2023? What is the year-end balance of Atty. Carpio corresponding to his account ending with last digits 2730? 07:01:59.000 --> 07:02:07.340 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: For year-end 2023, the last or the outstanding balance that time was 953,681.42. 07:02:07.860 --> 07:02:18.260 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: How about for 2024? What is the year-end balance of This account that you've mentioned under the name of Atty. Carpio? 07:02:18.670 --> 07:02:24.610 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: For 2024, sir, it was 115,824.20. 07:02:25.870 --> 07:02:34.450 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Lastly, Madam Witness, for 2025, what is the year-end balance of this account based on your records? 07:02:34.450 --> 07:02:35.030 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: For 07:02:35.030 --> 07:02:41.250 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: 2025, sir, it was 1,358,373.07. 07:02:44.870 --> 07:02:47.250 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: That would be all for my direct examination, your honor. 07:02:48.120 --> 07:02:48.860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. CJ? 07:02:49.690 --> 07:02:51.010 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: With this honorable court's 07:02:51.010 --> 07:02:51.170 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: permission. 07:02:51.490 --> 07:02:53.630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed with your cross when you're ready. 07:02:53.630 --> 07:02:54.110 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Good 07:02:54.400 --> 07:02:56.320 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: afternoon, Ms. Dela Serna. 07:02:56.320 --> 07:02:56.720 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Good afternoon, sir. 07:02:58.640 --> 07:03:09.540 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Ma'am, you mentioned that you are in charge of the internal controls of your branch and you implement the policies of Land Back, correct? 07:03:10.100 --> 07:03:11.530 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, your honor. 07:03:11.530 --> 07:03:13.110 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: So, in the ordinary course 07:03:13.110 --> 07:03:24.490 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: of banking practice, a person opening an account with the LBP must provide identifying information and documents required by the bank, correct? 07:03:24.870 --> 07:03:25.570 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:03:25.890 --> 07:03:32.790 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: The bank follows customer identification, KYC or Know Your Customer Procedures? 07:03:33.010 --> 07:03:33.590 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:03:33.930 --> 07:03:37.810 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: The bank maintains records identifying the account holder? 07:03:38.190 --> 07:03:39.030 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:03:39.790 --> 07:03:45.070 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: These records also identify the persons authorized to operate the account. 07:03:45.370 --> 07:03:46.150 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:03:46.770 --> 07:03:52.210 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: An individual account is different or distinct from a joint account, correct? 07:03:53.000 --> 07:03:53.700 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:03:54.820 --> 07:04:11.490 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Merely identifying someone as the depositor or the account holder's spouse on an information form or on your records does not automatically mean or make that person a joint account holder, correct? 07:04:11.490 --> 07:04:13.100 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir. 07:04:13.100 --> 07:04:20.360 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Being married to someone does not make the spouse an authorized signatory for that account, correct? 07:04:23.590 --> 07:04:27.390 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: May I ask for, can you repeat the question sir? Sorry. 07:04:27.930 --> 07:04:34.650 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Being married to an account holder does not make the spouse an authorized signatory for that account. 07:04:34.970 --> 07:04:44.410 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Objection, Your Honor. It's both speculative and vague. There are too much possible answers to that, Your Honor. Perhaps the good counsel can be more specific, Your Honor. 07:04:44.410 --> 07:04:44.930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If 07:04:44.930 --> 07:04:47.650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the witness knows, counsel. 07:04:47.650 --> 07:04:48.450 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Submitted, Your Honor. 07:04:48.450 --> 07:04:52.390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ma'am Raquel, alam niyo ba yung sagot sa katanungan niya? 07:04:52.970 --> 07:04:53.890 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:04:53.890 --> 07:04:54.570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly answer. 07:04:56.460 --> 07:04:59.360 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: These are two different or distinct individuals, sir. 07:04:59.520 --> 07:05:00.320 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Correct. 07:05:03.520 --> 07:05:17.440 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: You identified the account with number 0161-4627-30, correct? 07:05:18.930 --> 07:05:21.510 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. That's the account of attorney Carpio, sir. 07:05:21.690 --> 07:05:22.030 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Correct. 07:05:25.170 --> 07:05:33.270 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: And your bank, the LVP, maintains account information for each individual account holder. Correct? 07:05:33.510 --> 07:05:34.030 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir. 07:05:35.330 --> 07:05:41.970 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Statements and account notices are sent to the address or contact detail designated for that account. 07:05:42.430 --> 07:05:43.250 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir. 07:05:43.660 --> 07:05:44.300 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: You 07:05:44.300 --> 07:05:46.300 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: do not send a 07:05:46.300 --> 07:05:50.140 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: separate copy of notices to the account holder spouse, correct? 07:05:50.460 --> 07:05:51.300 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir. 07:05:55.100 --> 07:06:01.800 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: And you do not automatically notify the spouse whenever a deposit or a withdrawal is made, correct? 07:06:02.160 --> 07:06:02.900 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir. 07:06:03.440 --> 07:06:09.760 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Neither do you automatically inform the spouse of the account's balance at the end of the year, correct? 07:06:10.120 --> 07:06:11.160 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:06:12.820 --> 07:06:21.460 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: It is the LBP's practice whether the individual account holder is the husband or the wife. It doesn't matter, correct? 07:06:23.170 --> 07:06:29.290 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Kahit yung lalaki or babae, it doesn't matter. Walang difference. Yun yung practice niyo po. 07:06:30.710 --> 07:06:32.250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The question is [unclear], counsel. 07:06:33.840 --> 07:06:46.200 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: I withdraw your honor. In ordinary banking transactions, the LBP verifies a person's identity and authority before releasing confidential information on the account. 07:06:47.070 --> 07:07:04.790 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Objection, Your Honor. I don't think that the witness is in the position to answer that. She is a branch manager. She is not presented here as a person who is well aware of internal controls at the national level or policy level of land bank, Your Honor. We might endanger the witness with her employment, 07:07:05.030 --> 07:07:05.330 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Your Honor. 07:07:05.330 --> 07:07:16.220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then she may answer along those lines if she doesn't know. She may answer too if she knows. Objection is overruled. Ma'am Raquel, kung alam niyo po yung sagot, sagutin niyo po. Pag hindi niyo po alam, sabihin niyo rin po. 07:07:18.530 --> 07:07:20.290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly repeat the question, Attorney CJ. 07:07:21.230 --> 07:07:31.210 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Ma'am, in your practice, LBP verifies a person's identity and authority before releasing confidential account information, correct? 07:07:31.710 --> 07:07:32.330 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:07:33.380 --> 07:07:42.960 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Your bank would require the depositor or the account holder's written authorization before releasing the account information to a spouse, correct? 07:07:43.820 --> 07:07:47.380 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: We require SPA instead sir, special power of attorney. 07:07:47.380 --> 07:07:47.500 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Oh, 07:07:47.520 --> 07:07:48.920 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: not just a written... 07:07:48.920 --> 07:07:49.720 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Authorization, yes. 07:07:49.720 --> 07:07:50.180 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Thank you. 07:07:50.180 --> 07:07:50.240 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Not just 07:07:50.240 --> 07:07:51.120 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: authorization sir. 07:07:51.320 --> 07:07:59.480 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: So merely naming a spouse in the customer information sheet does not make that spouse a joint account holder, correct? 07:08:00.000 --> 07:08:04.600 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir, unless they're specifically mentioned na mag-or sila or something. 07:08:04.820 --> 07:08:15.090 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Thank you ma'am. A person does not automatically become an authorized signatory merely because he or she is married to that account holder, correct? 07:08:15.630 --> 07:08:16.270 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir. 07:08:17.310 --> 07:08:24.510 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Neither does the LBP automatically provide the spouse with access to the account through online banking, correct? 07:08:26.400 --> 07:08:27.820 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Can you repeat the question please? 07:08:28.660 --> 07:08:35.800 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Neither does the LBP automatically provide the spouse with access to the account through online banking, correct? 07:08:36.120 --> 07:08:36.700 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes sir. 07:08:40.560 --> 07:08:48.100 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Thus, marriage alone does not entitle a person to obtain the other spouse's account balance directly from the LVP. Correct? 07:08:48.440 --> 07:08:48.960 Raquel U. Dela Cerna: Yes, sir. 07:08:49.320 --> 07:08:49.880 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: No 07:08:58.390 --> 07:08:59.270 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: further questions, Your Honor. 07:08:59.590 --> 07:09:01.010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Any redirect, Attorney James? 07:09:01.350 --> 07:09:02.330 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: No redirect, Your Honor. 07:09:03.050 --> 07:09:08.910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: There have been no other questions. I take it there are no interjections from Senator Judges at this point? 07:09:10.440 --> 07:09:18.260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I take it you're waving your hands, not raising your hands. 07:09:21.460 --> 07:09:34.060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ma'am Raquel, you are excused. Maraming salamat po sa inyong oras, panahon, paumanin, mahinintay ninyo. Mas maaba po po yung antay kesa sa pag-testimonyo ninyo. Salamat po sa pagsagot ng 07:09:34.060 --> 07:09:36.660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: mga katanungan ng magkabilang partido. You're excused ma'am. 07:09:37.020 --> 07:09:37.680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That 07:09:38.410 --> 07:09:39.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: was not so painful. 07:09:42.990 --> 07:09:51.070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You were saying something yesterday CJ about seeing your family? Do I remember correctly? Was it you or someone else? 07:09:51.330 --> 07:09:54.330 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Not me, Your Honor. Attorney Vinluan, if I remember correctly. 07:09:54.490 --> 07:10:00.890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, okay. Attorney Mark, I guess, was the one saying it. We can, we shall call it a day. 07:10:03.180 --> 07:10:14.160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Tomorrow, we hope to proceed in this similar fashion or manner with respect to the other bank officials and let's cross the bridge and reach the insurance companies if they're the same. 07:10:14.480 --> 07:10:15.100 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: Yes, Your Honor. 07:10:16.550 --> 07:10:20.970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Any other points you would like to raise, Attorney James? 07:10:21.750 --> 07:10:23.330 Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih: None from the prosecution, Your Honor. 07:10:23.390 --> 07:10:25.610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Sheila or Attorney CJ? 07:10:26.830 --> 07:10:27.890 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: None from us, Your 07:10:27.890 --> 07:10:28.090 Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa: Honor. 07:10:28.310 --> 07:10:44.050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In that case, the court shall call it a day. We are adjourned until tomorrow, October 7th at 10 in the morning wherein we will proceed with the remaining witnesses insofar as the banks and insurance companies are concerned. Trial is adjourned.