# October 6, 2026

Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Duterte

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvD7eFqFhW4
Status: Reviewed working draft, revision 2

**[00:06:03.800] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
The sergeant at arms is directed to make a proclamation.

**[00:06:09.700] Alfredo Sotto Corpuz**  
All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the impeachment court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte.

**[00:06:20.250] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
The impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo.

**[00:06:42.350] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Let's bow our heads down.

**[00:06:47.400] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
I

**[00:06:47.560] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
pray today is from 1 Corinthians chapter 13 verses 1 to 7. If I could speak all the languages of the earth and of the angels but did not love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy and if I understood all God's secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains but did not love others, I would be nothing. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it. But if I don't love others, I would have gained nothing. Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable. And it keeps on no record of being wrong. It does not rejoice about injustice, but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith. It's always hopeful and endures through every circumstance. This we ask of you, Almighty God. Amen.

**[00:08:11.300] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.**  
Sen. Judge De La Rosa Sen. Judge Ejercito Sen. Judge Estrada Sen. Judge Goh Sen. Judge Ontiveros Sen. Judge Lacson Sen. Judge Lapid Sen. Judge Legarda Sen. Judge Marcoleta Sen. Judge Marcos Sen. Judge Padilla Sen. Judge Pangilina Sen. Judge Soto III Sen. Judge Tulfo Erwin Sen. Judge Tulfo Rafi Sen. Judge Villanueva Sen. Judge Villar Camil Senator Judge Villar, Mark, Senator Judge Zubiri, the Presiding Officer, Senator Judge Escudero, the Senate President, Senator Judge Gatchalian.

**[00:08:48.430] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
With 16 Senator Judges present, the Chair declares the presence of a Court.

**[00:08:53.130] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
In

**[00:08:53.610] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
accordance with the Rules of Procedure on Impeachment Trials, the Chair now recognizes the duly elected Presiding Officer to preside over the proceedings of the Impeachment Court.

**[00:09:03.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Mr. Senate President. The Clerk of Court will please call the case before the Impeachment Court.

**[00:09:08.270] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.**  
Case number 004-2026 is the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte.

**[00:09:14.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the information of the senator, judges, and the parties, we shall approve the journal of yesterday's proceedings at a later time, given that it is not yet ready due to the long trial yesterday. But hopefully within the day before we adjourn, we shall be able to approve the journal for yesterday's proceedings. Appearances of the parties.

**[00:09:41.500] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearances for the prosecution.

**[00:09:46.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the respondent.

**[00:09:47.700] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearance for the respondent.

**[00:09:50.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I

**[00:09:50.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
presume, Honorable Ridon, Attorney May will again be handling the cross-examination?

**[00:09:55.660] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
Yes, Your Honor. She will.

**[00:09:58.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Attorney Ronel, I see you in the first gallery. The clerk is directed through the OSAA to kindly situate Attorney Ronel of the MLC to the witness stand.

**[00:10:09.690] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
Your Honor.

**[00:10:10.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, Honorable Redon. What is your pleasure, sir?

**[00:10:12.290] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
But before proceeding to the continuation of cross, we have several administrative matters relating to the bank representatives.

**[00:10:20.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, sir.

**[00:10:22.070] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
We would want to know from the court if the subpoenaed banks and their representatives are in fact in attendance today.

**[00:10:32.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I

**[00:10:47.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
was informed, I am being informed rather by the clerk now, that all

**[00:10:55.700] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sabinad officials from banks and insurance companies are here. All 16 of them.

**[00:11:05.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sorry, only 15.

**[00:11:10.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Excuse me.

**[00:11:11.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ah,

**[00:11:23.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
okay. All 15 banking and insurance companies are here with us. The 16th would be the BAR commissioner. Rather, the BAR official included in the list.

**[00:11:38.400] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
Thank you for the information, Your Honor. If they are in attendance, it is the prosecution's request for a conference of the parties to be undertaken with them so that we can be able to obtain preliminary information relating to their identities, their type of work, and among related matters, Your Honor.

**[00:12:00.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What does the respondent say? Attorney Sheila or Attorney Mark? Attorney Sheila, yes.

**[00:12:09.230] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
That's fine with us, Your Honor.

**[00:12:10.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Can that be done while we're proceeding with the cross and redirect and recross, if any, of Attorney Ranel?

**[00:12:19.280] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
Yes, Your Honor. It is something we can do.

**[00:12:21.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Attorney

**[00:12:22.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sheila?

**[00:12:22.680] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor, just one request in relation to the request for a conference with the prosecution together with the witnesses. We will just ask that this be done under... or with the supervision of the court, Your Honor.

**[00:12:41.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, the Clerk of Court is directed to send the representative of the court to oversee the party's conference with the witnesses from the banks and insurance companies. You can proceed to do that while we are doing the cross-redirect and recross, if any, of the witness.

**[00:13:04.280] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
Thank you, Your Honor.

**[00:13:05.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Anything else, Honorable Ridon?

**[00:13:07.520] Rep. Terry L. Ridon**  
We are done, Your Honor. I will yield to Atty. Divina Grash.

**[00:13:20.020] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Good

**[00:13:25.210] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
morning, Your Honors.

**[00:13:28.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Good morning.

**[00:13:38.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Ronel, naunawaan niyo po ba na kayo'y magpapatuloy sa inyong pagbigay ng inyong testimonya sa hukumang ito base sa inyong pinanumpaan kahapon po sa harap ng hukumang ito at sa pamamagitan ng Clerk of Court?

**[00:13:53.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Opo, naintindihan po.

**[00:13:57.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty.

**[00:14:03.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Mark, are you ready for your cross?

**[00:14:05.580] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yes, Your Honor, but just a short manifestation in order.

**[00:14:08.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed. What is your manifestation?

**[00:14:10.900] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, I'll just read my manifestation so I don't deviate, but I hope it doesn't take away from the sincerity. In all humility, Your Honor, our intention in cross-examination is to test the credibility of the witness, among others. And part of testing that credibility is to confront him not just with documents but with salient provisions of the law so that we can demonstrate whether or not his interpretation and application of the law is correct. So when we read portions of the law during our cross-examination, it is never our intention to cause intimidation. Especially to the members of this honorable impeachment court, lalong-lalo na po kay Sen. Judge Lapid, who, if I may say, has been very gracious to us. Maraming salamat po sa mahablang ka, sir. But if in any way a different message was indirectly conveyed, I personally apologize and commit to be more circumspect moving forward. Thank you, Your Honor.

**[00:15:08.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The

**[00:15:09.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
manifestation of Atty. Mark is well taken and duly noted. Thank you, Atty. Mark.

**[00:15:14.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Thank you, Your Honor.

**[00:15:15.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If you are ready, you may proceed

**[00:15:16.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
with your crosser.

**[00:15:18.300] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Good morning, Atty.

**[00:15:19.720] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Buenaventura.

**[00:15:20.460] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Good

**[00:15:20.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
morning, Your Honor.

**[00:15:21.600] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, just to provide the starting point, the MLC cannot conclude through a mere reading of the covered transaction reports or CTRs and suspicious transaction reports or STRs that funds were sourced from any unlawful activity, correct?

**[00:15:41.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Conclude? Yes, Your Honor. Only based on what's provided in the records, Your Honor.

**[00:15:45.520] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, you submitted a report of CTRs and STRs for corporations, correct?

**[00:15:52.910] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That is correct, Your Honor.

**[00:15:54.330] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
To name a few, GenCorp Industries Inc., Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, and Cale88 Foods Corporation, correct?

**[00:16:05.090] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, may I be allowed to check

**[00:16:06.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
with my record?

**[00:16:07.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
May continuing authority is granted to Attorney Ronel to refer to his documents during his testimony. Likewise, continuing authority to assisting counsels from both sides, both parties is given to approach the witness at any point in time.

**[00:16:28.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, can you repeat po yung corporations mentioned? I just

**[00:16:31.370] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
mentioned the several GenCorp industries. Kasama po dyan. Metro City Chow.

**[00:16:36.170] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:16:37.030] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And then Cali88 Foods Corporation.

**[00:16:39.850] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:16:40.490] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In fact, lahat naman po yung corporation. Wala naman po ibang entities na partnerships. Tama po?

**[00:16:45.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[00:16:45.330] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright.

**[00:16:46.130] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po ma-determine, Your Honor, if they are partnerships or corporations. I can't recall if it's indicated in the records, Your Honor.

**[00:16:56.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Okay. Now, the AMLC merely received the CTRs and STRs from the banks and other covered corporations, correct?

**[00:17:07.950] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po, covered persons po.

**[00:17:09.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And then after you received them, you summarized them in your reports, tama?

**[00:17:18.650] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
In the, in what we submit, we didn't summarize po at least for the juridical persons except yun pong in relation to the request of the prosecution. Prosecution po, Your Honor.

**[00:17:33.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, but let me be more specific. What were submitted to the House Committee on Justice on April 22, 2026 were only summary reports of the CTRs and STRs, correct?

**[00:17:47.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
We did not submit

**[00:17:49.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
to the House Committee on Justice those with pertaining to juridical persons, Your Honor, because they were not included in their subpoena by

**[00:17:58.950] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
back then, Your Honor.

**[00:18:00.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
To be clarified, sinabit niyo ba sa House of Representatives yung mga mismong CTRs and STRs?

**[00:18:06.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:18:07.630] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Sa House of Committee on Justice?

**[00:18:09.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. It was

**[00:18:11.550] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
part of their subpoena,

**[00:18:12.890] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[00:18:13.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Now, in other words, in preparing your reports, let me ask you this question. Do you rely on the actual CTRs? and STRs, meaning the data contained therein. May

**[00:18:28.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I ask po what reports are you

**[00:18:29.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
referring

**[00:18:29.890] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
to, Your Honor?

**[00:18:30.830] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
The reports that you submitted before this court, for example, the financial intelligence report and the several other marked documents, the confidential information sharing report and all those.

**[00:18:45.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
It is as what was stated, Poa, Your Honor, in those documents. If they made reference to the...

**[00:19:02.210] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Sige. In terms of the tabular summaries, you only base the information that you indicated there on the CTRs and STRs, correct?

**[00:19:11.070] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. That's correct.

**[00:19:12.350] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, there was no further verification on the part of the AMLC Whether there were clerical errors in these CTRs or STRs, correct?

**[00:19:25.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes,

**[00:19:27.820] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor. It is what appears in the request, Your Honor.

**[00:19:30.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So

**[00:19:30.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
no further verification also whether there were inaccuracies or incomplete information in these CTRs or STRs, correct?

**[00:19:40.120] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As of the time of the subpoena and

**[00:19:42.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
the documents we submitted, yes, Your Honor. We submitted what appeared in the... In our records, Your Honor.

**[00:19:47.700] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In fact, in one of your reports submitted to the House Committee on Justice, and you testified on this yesterday, you stated that there was a BPI system bug that caused a discrepancy of over 2 billion pesos in the records of attorney months.

**[00:20:04.060] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Is leading, Your Honor. The witness never mentioned BPI as the one who requested the correction of the report.

**[00:20:13.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
If you know if it's from BPI.

**[00:20:15.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I'll allow it if the witness knows because it also came from the direct that BPI made a correction.

**[00:20:21.680] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I never mentioned yesterday any covert person. In fact, if I recall, I mentioned a covert person made a request for correction. If possible, may I be confronted with the document being referred to so I can... Make the necessary answer your honor.

**[00:20:39.030] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No, I'm not talking, I've moved on from the corporations. I'm talking now about the CTRs and STRs of attorney months. Do you

**[00:20:46.890] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
recall that there was a rectification made?

**[00:20:50.050] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I did mention your honor. I mentioned there was a cover person who made the request your honor.

**[00:20:54.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
But I didn't mention any entity your honor.

**[00:20:56.630] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Any entity, okay. Para lang maliwanag, may nireport po ang bangko na 2 billion mahigit for attorney months. Pero ang tamang amount po ay 2 million lamang. Tama?

**[00:21:09.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala po akong na-mention na ganun, Your Honor. I can't recall anything on that, Your Honor.

**[00:21:13.950] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But can't you

**[00:21:15.590] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
testify on that now? Whether you can confirm based on the reports that you made kung meron ganung incident?

**[00:21:20.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Can I show po the records po, Your Honor? So I can answer based on the records, Your Honor.

**[00:21:27.710] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
May the witness be confronted with the relevant documents, Your Honor, being referred to by the Defense Council.

**[00:21:35.320] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We will do that, your honor.

**[00:21:37.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Move

**[00:21:38.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
on, counsel.

**[00:21:38.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I'll move on for now as I give time to my assisting counsels. Now, my question is this. You mentioned about that error in the amount of 2 billion pesos. Regardless of whether you said you mentioned or did not mention the name of the entity.

**[00:22:00.600] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Misleading, your honor.

**[00:22:01.720] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I'm not yet

**[00:22:02.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
done with

**[00:22:02.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
my question.

**[00:22:03.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly wait for him to finish his questioning, his question rather, Atty. May. Now, this

**[00:22:09.030] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
amount was nevertheless included in your reports that were submitted before the House Committee on Justice, correct?

**[00:22:16.110] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Misleading, Your Honor, because the witness already testified earlier that he never mentioned the amount.

**[00:22:20.950] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
He was about to answer,

**[00:22:21.950] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Your Honor. That's precisely the reason why I...

**[00:22:24.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
He was asking

**[00:22:24.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
to be confronted

**[00:22:25.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
by the document, Atty. Mark.

**[00:22:29.770] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I can just ask him now, Your Honor, are you familiar or do you have personal knowledge of the amount based on the reports?

**[00:22:35.570] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Already asked and answered, Your Honor. That's why the witness requested that he be confronted with the necessary document.

**[00:22:41.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Attorney Ronel, would

**[00:22:43.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you know?

**[00:22:46.090] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I have a figure in my journal but I know it's not accurate because I know it's not what appears on the record. So if there is a document that I can be confronted with, it would be better po your honor so I can accurately answer that.

**[00:23:00.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You

**[00:23:00.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
can in the meantime move on to another topic while you're getting the document.

**[00:23:03.990] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We're ready with the document your honor. Can I ask my assisting counsel to confront him with the document?

**[00:23:12.620] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
This is actually on page 11. Paragraph 25 of the Confidential Information Sharing Report that the same witness submitted to this honorable court.

**[00:23:24.910] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Are you in that portion already?

**[00:23:27.050] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:23:27.690] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
This is paragraph 25?

**[00:23:29.670] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po. Oo.

**[00:23:31.210] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Can we ask you

**[00:23:32.480] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
to read the salient portions where an amount was indicated there pertaining to how much?

**[00:23:40.100] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ito po ba? So,

**[00:23:41.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
can I just read the paragraph 25?

**[00:23:44.180] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Go ahead, sir.

**[00:23:45.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Okay. Further clarification with BPI, disclosed that the 13 open parenthesis 1, 3, closed parenthesis MCs aggregating PHP 2.339 billion and payable to attorney Carpio were procured by Nutri Asia, 8 billion.

**[00:24:07.090] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That's okay.

**[00:24:07.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Can you move on to paragraph 27? Wherein it says... It's the BPI system bug. Can you read the entire paragraph for the record?

**[00:24:21.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
However, in a letter dated 6 April 2026 signed by the Senior Vice President and Head of BPI's Transaction Banking Division, Institutional Banking Segment, the bank requested for the deletion of 13, open parenthesis, 1, 3, close parenthesis, cover transaction report, open parenthesis. records pertaining to attorney Carpio. According to BPI, a system bug from a source application system resulted in inaccurate amounts on the said records. That based on their verification, the actual amounts of MCs procured for attorney Carpio from the reports affected by the system bug are below PHP 500,000. Open parenthesis ranging from PHP 100,000 to PHP 455,357.14 Close

**[00:25:17.650] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
parenthesis.

**[00:25:18.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
May

**[00:25:19.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
total amount ba dyan? Yun sa correct amount?

**[00:25:23.490] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Wala.

**[00:25:28.240] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala.

**[00:25:36.720] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I cannot see. It wasn't specified there. At any rate, the incorrect or the rectified

**[00:25:42.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Go ahead.

**[00:25:43.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Is it the

**[00:25:45.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ang what I read earlier po sa paragraph 25, further clarification with BPI disclosed that the 1313 MCs aggregating PHP 2.33 billion and payable to,

**[00:25:56.470] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
ilan po yung may amount na malaking nakalagay?

**[00:25:59.330] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So that's the aggregate amount. At any rate, it's indicated there na it had to be rectified. Yan 2.339 billion, correct?

**[00:26:07.450] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Objection, Your Honor. I request that the statement made that the aggregate amount is 2. point three because that the witness never made that conclusion requested to be corrected he just read what was in the document but he never made that conclusion it was uh the defense council who made who supplied that conclusion for the witness that's

**[00:26:28.900] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
why we're clarifying your honor because he's the author of this uh or at least one of the

**[00:26:34.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
He

**[00:26:34.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
was one of those who wrote that report.

**[00:26:36.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, your

**[00:26:37.050] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
honor. Let me clarify. This document existed when I joined. So, when it

**[00:26:41.830] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
was a

**[00:26:42.130] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
subpoena, I just requested the...

**[00:26:45.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ah, that's not the table you're referring to. That's the report.

**[00:26:48.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
How about paragraph 28? Can you read that paragraph for us, please? Just to put clarity.

**[00:26:54.830] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Paragraph 28, number 28. With this request and granting that it is already correct this time, it would appear that the total amount of... MCs procured by NAI in favor of a 30-car appeal would only be PHP 2,110,714.29 and not PHP 2,334,617,151.92.

**[00:27:20.570] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So

**[00:27:21.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
it's clear then that it was first reported as 2 billion plus, the transaction, based on paragraph 28 on your reading of that. But the correct amount should have been only 2 million plus, correct?

**[00:27:32.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your Honor. It only stated here that with this request and granting if it is already correct this time, it would appear that the total amount, I'm just reading because I cannot make that conclusion. Your Honor, because I'm just basing it on what is stated in the record. It would appear that the total amount MCs procured by NIA in favor of Attorney Carpio would only be PHP 2,110,714.21 and not PHP 2,334,6171,51.92, Your Honor.

**[00:28:02.120] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay, so isn't it your position that you rectified this amount or no? In your reports, just to make the issue simple.

**[00:28:13.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
in our uh in

**[00:28:15.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
this report your honor no

**[00:28:17.230] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
no no in uh the in your submissions with uh uh

**[00:28:20.450] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
in our submissions to this honorable

**[00:28:22.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
correct correct

**[00:28:22.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
yes uh it was correct uh there were rectifications here on

**[00:28:26.250] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
oh you know uh that's just my point that that you had to rectify no no

**[00:28:30.210] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
your honor again that's misleading because as testified on yesterday by this witness there were several reasons for the rectification and not just the request from the supposed So we cannot attribute the correction solely from the correction requested by that covered institution.

**[00:28:51.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I would have

**[00:28:51.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
to sustain, Atty. Mark, because I remember the witness yesterday citing three or four reasons for rectification. Would that be correct, Atty. Ranel?

**[00:29:00.630] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That is correct, Your Honor.

**[00:29:02.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So not only because of the submission of BPI.

**[00:29:06.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That is correct, your honor.

**[00:29:07.250] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay, let me paraphrase my question, your honor. So the submission of NBI was one of the reasons among others that you rectified that amount from 2 billion to 2 million, correct? 2 billion plus 2 million, correct?

**[00:29:19.310] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
BPI, your honor. You said NBI.

**[00:29:21.350] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
BPI, BPI.

**[00:29:23.920] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
We... Sorry, can you...

**[00:29:26.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So that request from BPI was one of the reasons for the rectification, correct?

**[00:29:33.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Among others, among other

**[00:29:34.520] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
reasons.

**[00:30:00.580] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Now, there was a request. We validated that. Of course, the request is simply a request. It can be denied if there's no basis. It can be granted if there's basis. In the same way that we are doing it whenever there are requests from other covered persons. If they want to have it corrected, we have to validate first. But not all the times that we grant them. So, as of the time that they made the request, that was indicated in what I've read. We have to validate that. So at that time, the record stood as it was because we have not yet validated it. They simply sent a letter. When we submitted to this honorable court for transparency or honor, it is already what is already as corrected based on the request because we have validated that. So we never rectified anything because there was no error in the first place when we submitted before the house. at this point because it's it's the bank the covered sorry it's a covered person which made that request and as of the time we haven't yet validated that your honor for clarification and transparency to this honorable court your honor all

**[00:31:07.360] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
right but at any rate you validated it and you made the necessary changes

**[00:31:11.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
yes your honor that's correct

**[00:31:13.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
okay so uh my question is this if further verification is necessary is it the banks or the covered institutions or the depositor himself that can provide it?

**[00:31:28.780] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Since the reports are submitted by covered persons, it would be the covered persons who can, who at least in so far as I recall with our guidelines, it's the covered persons because The customer or the account holder are in the first place prohibited from being informed that there is a CTR or STR file. It's actually, as you mentioned, I think one of the provisions cited yesterday, it's confidential. Covered persons cannot inform their clients that CTRs or STRs are reported. So it's actually the covered person who should, in response to your question, Your Honor, who should file that, Your Honor.

**[00:32:08.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. So,

**[00:32:09.810] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
in terms of the investigation, you do this in coordination with your legal evaluation department, correct?

**[00:32:18.970] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
LES?

**[00:32:21.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I'm unable to disclose internal operations, your honor.

**[00:32:24.460] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
You're also not able to disclose that it's done in coordination with the compliance and investigation department?

**[00:32:32.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I'm unable to make the disclosure.

**[00:32:34.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That's okay. But at any rate, as executive director, you can initiate any investigation, correct?

**[00:32:40.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:32:41.200] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Proactively.

**[00:32:42.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:32:43.540] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, and in line with an investigation, you prepare reports, of course.

**[00:32:50.160] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Of your

**[00:32:50.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
investigation.

**[00:32:51.820] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Report on investigation for money laundering, Your Honor.

**[00:32:55.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yes.

**[00:32:56.600] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:32:57.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And then, of course, your report is still subject to review by the AMLC, correct? AMLC...

**[00:33:04.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Council.

**[00:33:05.660] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your

**[00:33:06.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Honor.

**[00:33:07.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Because...

**[00:33:10.370] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
As you testified earlier, this is because you act under the control and supervision of the AMLC, correct?

**[00:33:16.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. I never mentioned control and supervision. If I recall, that was your words, Your Honor.

**[00:33:22.950] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But you agreed to it. Are you under control and supervision of the AMLC?

**[00:33:28.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I don't recall if that's the exact wording.

**[00:33:31.620] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Or are you independent from

**[00:33:33.160] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
them?

**[00:33:34.120] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, I can't recall that it's what I stated in the law, Your Honor.

**[00:33:40.500] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, I recall your honor based on what you flash your order is we are there to assist the council in the performance of their mandate, your honor.

**[00:33:49.360] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay.

**[00:33:50.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, with regard to your investigation report, the council or the AMLC members can use your report as basis or they can altogether disregard it, correct?

**[00:34:04.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, your honor.

**[00:34:06.890] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yesterday, you identified certain transactions relating to Kale88 Foods Corporation. Do you recall that?

**[00:34:14.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:34:14.950] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, my question to you is this. Do you confirm that Kale88 Foods Corporation has a separate and distinct personality from VP Sara?

**[00:34:24.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I am unable to

**[00:34:26.240] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
confirm that. I don't. We have no visibility on who owns or the ownership or what are the interests of VP Saray or

**[00:34:35.940] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
who owns Cale88.

**[00:34:37.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yeah,

**[00:34:37.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
but

**[00:34:38.440] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
based on your knowledge of the law, corporation has a distinct and separate and distinct juridical personality with an individual.

**[00:34:46.100] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Objection, Your Honor. This witness will be incompetent to testify, Your Honor, because as he has already... Manifested, he has no visibility, is not in possession of any filings with the SEC by this corporation.

**[00:35:00.410] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
As

**[00:35:00.910] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
a

**[00:35:04.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
lawyer,

**[00:35:04.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
as a lawyer, you can answer that indeed a corporation is a separate juridical personality from that of a natural person who may or may not be a stockholder of that corporation.

**[00:35:17.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor, in my limited knowledge of the commercial lawyer, corporate law.

**[00:35:21.930] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Oh, you're being very modest, attorney. But do you confirm also that Cale88 Foods Corporation has a separate and distinct personality from attorney Manz?

**[00:35:32.310] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
In the first place, Your Honor, this witness has never testified that he is aware that this entity is indeed the corporation.

**[00:35:38.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What's the objection,

**[00:35:39.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Your Honor?

**[00:35:39.570] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
The objection is misleading, Your Honor. It assumes a fact not yet on record, at least based on the testimony of this witness.

**[00:35:47.970] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just

**[00:35:48.230] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
trying to elicit, Your Honor, and information from what he knows as a lawyer.

**[00:35:54.400] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Then you

**[00:35:54.800] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
should, Your Honor, lay down the predicate.

**[00:35:57.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You can rephrase it. You can reform counsel and simply state that the corporation is a separate, distinct personality from natural persons such as, because again, the witness would be incompetent with respect to knowledge as to whether or not attorney mans or the vice president is a stockholder of the corporation.

**[00:36:18.440] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I'll just adopt that phrasing from the presiding officer. Do you confirm that Cale88 Foods Corporation has a separate and distinct personalities from natural persons?

**[00:36:29.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
From natural

**[00:36:30.700] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
persons? From my limited knowledge of corporation law, yes, Your Honor.

**[00:36:36.380] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And those natural persons include attorney man, Scorpio, correct?

**[00:36:40.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I'm not sure, Your Honor, if attorney man is a stockholder.

**[00:36:43.080] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
If

**[00:36:43.440] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
a stockholder, Your Honor. Alright, now to be more precise. AMLC records show that remittances were made to Kale88 Foods Corporation and not to VP Sara and Attorney Mance, correct?

**[00:36:56.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That is correct, based on records, Your Honor.

**[00:37:00.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, my question to you is this. Does the AMLC have any record of how much of these transactions by Kale88 Foods Corporation redounded to the benefit of VP Sara and Attorney Mance?

**[00:37:16.330] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Redounded to the benefit, Your Honor? There is none. It's only based on what we have on the record, sir.

**[00:37:22.610] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, done.

**[00:37:23.490] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, let me direct your attention to this news article that came out yesterday from GMA News Online. Can you see what's flashed on the screen, sir? We have a hard copy.

**[00:37:36.940] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
It says here, I'll just read the title and the first sentence for the sake of time.

**[00:37:42.600] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
China denies giving money to Philippine political group in wake of Trillanes' claims. The first sentence reads, The Chinese embassy in Manila has branded as a quote-unquote false narrative the allegations that China has funneled funds to a political faction in the Philippines, calling them malicious rhetoric and actions. Now, do you recall that yesterday you testified on several China-based entities that had transactions with Cale88? Do you recall that?

**[00:38:18.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your

**[00:38:18.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Honor. I only read what's indicated in the records, Your Honor. Although, if I recall, there were names pointed that it sounds in Chinese, Your Honor.

**[00:38:28.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Ah, okay. So my question to you is this. Do the records of AMLA show that those entities that you mentioned are not legitimate business entities? May nakalagay ba sa records?

**[00:38:42.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your Honor. There's nothing in the

**[00:38:43.840] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
records.

**[00:38:44.180] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Your Honor, before the cross-examination continues, may we request that what is being flashed on the screen be taken down because the relevance of this document has not yet been shown and it's objectionable on so many levels, Your Honor. The witness is incompetent to testify on that. It's hearsay. The truth of the allegations therein has not yet been established. And it's completely irrelevant, Your Honor.

**[00:39:07.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And I believe Attorney Mark is already done with that too. Correct me if I'm wrong, Attorney Mark. We can take

**[00:39:13.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
it down

**[00:39:13.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
at this point,

**[00:39:13.890] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor.

**[00:39:13.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, you're already done with it.

**[00:39:15.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I already confronted the witness with it anyway.

**[00:39:17.810] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, more importantly, do the records of AMLC show that China-based entities that you mentioned yesterday represent China itself or the Chinese government? Meron ba ganun sa records niyo?

**[00:39:36.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As far as I recall, yesterday, there is no mention about it, Your Honor.

**[00:39:40.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No mention. In other words, in line with your testimony now, and from what we read from the article a while ago, no records of AMLC show that China as a country funneled funds to Cale88, correct?

**[00:39:55.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As far as I recall, and based on the record, there is no showing, Your Honor.

**[00:39:59.680] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Thank you for that answer. Now, I mentioned that News article about China. You have a department in AMLC called the Investigation and Enforcement Department-Financial Crimes Investigation Group or IED-FCIG, correct?

**[00:40:19.310] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yeah, that is correct, Your Honor.

**[00:40:21.450] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, my only question relating to that news article, can the IED-FCIG take notice of articles like this? In relation to its investigation, if any?

**[00:40:36.450] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That I am unable to confirm your honor.

**[00:40:41.810] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
What do you mean? You cannot answer

**[00:40:43.410] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
based

**[00:40:43.770] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
on

**[00:40:44.070] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
confidentiality?

**[00:40:44.890] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I mean, that article,

**[00:40:45.130] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
because I, well, number one, it's the first time I'm seeing the article. Of course, I'm not sure if it's that something that... Our investigation unit would indeed take cognizance, Your Honor.

**[00:40:59.260] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But

**[00:40:59.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
can that particular department take cognizance of news articles in general in relation to the investigations that you make?

**[00:41:07.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Take cognizance, Your Honor, in the sense that it's being seen. I mean, if it is published in the internet, it can be seen, Your Honor.

**[00:41:15.640] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
When they see it, do they consider it in their investigation?

**[00:41:19.920] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
It

**[00:41:20.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
could be... As one of the things that they may look but I'm not sure if I don't know the article your honor so I cannot say if it is indeed something to look at

**[00:41:32.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
in the first place.

**[00:41:33.130] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We're okay with that answer. One last point on this. Based on your records, may money laundering case ba that is pending against Cale88 or any of its officers?

**[00:41:43.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I am unable to disclose any investigation not

**[00:41:45.690] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
covered in the subpoena your honor.

**[00:41:47.270] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Based on the records, meron na bang na-convict? For any money laundering case, ang kahit sinong officer ng Cale88?

**[00:41:54.410] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I have no personal knowledge who are the officers of Cale88.

**[00:41:57.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That's okay. Let's move on to the CTRs and STRs. When banks and covered persons submit CTRs and STRs, do they submit or attach supporting documents like bank ledgers for example?

**[00:42:15.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As far as I know, There are times that they do, but I apologize your honor, I'm not certain it would be subject to our AMLC registration reporting guidelines and our other reporting guidelines.

**[00:42:32.070] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yeah, that's okay. But do you know if they submit deposit slips, for example, as supporting documents?

**[00:42:37.310] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I am

**[00:42:37.570] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
unable to know

**[00:42:39.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
or

**[00:42:40.350] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
recall your

**[00:42:40.890] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
honor on that.

**[00:42:41.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Unable.

**[00:42:42.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
How about transaction history records?

**[00:42:47.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, your honor.

**[00:42:48.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No? How about internal credit and debit memos of the bank accounts as supporting documents to these CTRs and STRs?

**[00:42:58.100] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor,

**[00:43:02.840] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
if I recall, and of course subject to, because there are a lot of guidelines issued in relation to the reporting, if I recall, there are reports, at least STRs, wherein AMLC may be able, can require

**[00:43:21.340] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
records to be filed together with STRs, Your Honor, but subject to what is provided in our guidelines, Your Honor.

**[00:43:28.540] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright.

**[00:43:29.300] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Here's a

**[00:43:29.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
more pointed question. Does the AMLC witness the actual conduct of each transaction?

**[00:43:38.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your Honor. We only base on the records, Your Honor.

**[00:43:41.430] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Does the AMLC personnel know the personal circumstances of the parties involved in the transaction?

**[00:43:52.430] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
If

**[00:43:52.870] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
only basing on the CTRs and STRs, no, your honor. Only the details as indicated there when the date of transaction, etc.

**[00:44:00.130] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No, does the AMLC personnel gain personal knowledge on the party's business interests, for example?

**[00:44:07.910] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Not unless they,

**[00:44:09.050] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
based on the records, no, on the CTRs, STRs alone, your honor, no. Unless further investigation

**[00:44:14.870] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
is conducted, your honor.

**[00:44:16.150] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In other words, based on the CTRs and STRs alone, The AMLC has no personal knowledge of the underlying transactions of each items in the CTRs and STRs, correct?

**[00:44:28.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That is correct.

**[00:44:29.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
It is only what appears on our records.

**[00:44:33.200] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Hence,

**[00:44:33.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
the AMLC cannot determine the legality or illegality of the transactions based solely on the CTRs and STRs, correct?

**[00:44:45.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your Honor. Let me clarify. We're not... Based on the CTRs or STRs, if you look at it, we're not determining, there's no entry there which states whether it's illegal or not.

**[00:44:57.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Kaya hindi niyo po malalaman.

**[00:44:59.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
We're not determining, I mean, in the first place, we're not determining on the basis alone of reported CTRs or STRs whether the underlying transaction is immediately illegal or not. As part of our duties or others, as mentioned yesterday, we analyze this and then, of course, if needed, conduct investigation, file with the court, and only then we're able to establish. And even then, on our end, it's for the courts to determine if

**[00:45:25.120] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
there's illegality or not.

**[00:45:26.120] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, for the courts to determine. Thank you for that answer. Now let's talk about suspicious transaction reports in particular. The AMLC only records STRs as reported by banks and other covered...

**[00:45:39.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Without making any independent verification as to the basis used by the banks, correct?

**[00:45:46.450] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sorry, the AMLC

**[00:45:47.810] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
does what, Your Honor?

**[00:45:51.270] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
They only record or receives STRs.

**[00:45:54.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ah, receives. Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:45:55.910] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And without making any independent verification on how the banks classified.

**[00:46:01.780] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That is not required under the law and the rules your honor.

**[00:46:05.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In other words, para maintindihan po na nating lahat, malayang hinahayaan ng AMLC ang mga bangko at iba pang covered persons na mag-classify ng transactions as suspicious. Tama?

**[00:46:22.280] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa pag-classify, tama po. Pero sila po ay subject, I think nabanggit ko po. To the guidelines. guidelines at kasama rin po yung supervision and audit po sa kanila. So kasama na rin po yung BSP nag-audit, other regulators po, SEC, Insurance Commission po, and then kami rin po nag-audit. So yung sinasabit po nila, maaaring po sabit po nila, pero yun po ay subject to audit, kami rin po subject to our checking din as well, Your Honor. Of

**[00:46:49.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
course. Now, for the record, the AMLC operates under a low threshold. reporting of suspicious activity, correct?

**[00:46:58.510] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Vague, Your Honor. What does low threshold of report, what does that even mean, Your Honor?

**[00:47:04.090] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
It's in the law, Your Honor, and the witness is intelligent enough to answer.

**[00:47:07.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If he knows, if he knows, Atty. May, if you know, Atty. Rodel,

**[00:47:11.350] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sorry,

**[00:47:11.850] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
can

**[00:47:12.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
you

**[00:47:12.130] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
repeat po?

**[00:47:12.610] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Low threshold po ba o high threshold ang ginagamit nyo in terms of reporting of suspicious activity?

**[00:47:19.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
The law did not mention any threshold, Your Honor. The law says, regardless of the amount, So it could be a suspicious transaction could be higher than the threshold or it could be lower than the threshold as long as the presence of suspicious circumstances are there,

**[00:47:37.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[00:47:37.650] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yeah, we're okay with that answer. It means that banks and other covered transactions are encouraged to report transactions as suspicious even if not yet conclusive. Tama?

**[00:47:49.070] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Your

**[00:47:49.450] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Honor, the term encouraged is

**[00:47:53.190] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Wrong, Your Honor. So the ground for objection is misleading, Your Honor. Covert institutions are required to report suspicious transactions. They are not just encouraged to report suspicious transactions.

**[00:48:05.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
He can just admit or deny, Your Honor. Anyway, that's the word that I used. If the witness can answer.

**[00:48:11.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Witness is intelligent enough and you have made him aware already of the word encouraged so let him answer accordingly.

**[00:48:17.630] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
The law is... I guess you're on policy,

**[00:48:20.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po. So, the law use the word required, Your Honor. So, they're required to report suspicious

**[00:48:25.560] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
transactions, Your Honor.

**[00:48:27.540] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, that's even. But even if not yet conclusive, that's my only point. Ah, sorry.

**[00:48:33.620] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, the threshold is suspicious or suspicion or suspicious circumstances, Your Honor.

**[00:48:40.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So that I cannot say whether it's conclusive or not but on the end of the covered person it's for them to determine based on the profile of their client based on the nature of the transaction whether this transaction is or activity is suspicious or not whether if on their end it is conclusive or not it's for them the threshold at least insofar as the law requires is suspicion or suspicious but if they are It could be that on their end, they have conclusively determined, but we have no personal knowledge on that, Your Honor.

**[00:49:11.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
With your indulgence, Atty. Mark, what do the guidelines or the law say when it made mention of the word require? When in doubt, should banks report? Or when in doubt, banks will not?

**[00:49:31.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We're

**[00:49:31.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
pertaining to suspicious transactions only.

**[00:49:34.120] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, in our guidelines, as far as I recall, Your Honor, and subject to what the actual guidelines provide, we have a definition there of what suspicion is. And this is also based on the law, which enumerates the suspicious circumstances. Essentially, suspicion po is one based on the knowledge of the covered person or reporting entity based on the profile of the client and taking account all other circumstances. to determine whether or not there is a suspicious circumstance.

**[00:50:07.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, a lot of basis is placed on the bank's KYC?

**[00:50:11.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
That is correct.

**[00:50:14.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
KYC, your owner, transaction of the account owner as well, your owner. So, yung KYC po kasi pang simula lang po yun eh. So, ma-determine yung profile. So,

**[00:50:26.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
KYC for the information of the public, your client,

**[00:50:29.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
and

**[00:50:30.700] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
or if the client is a PEP. or a politically exposed person.

**[00:50:34.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasama rin po

**[00:50:35.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
yan sa kinoconsider po nila. So

**[00:50:36.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the determination of whether or not a transaction is suspicious regardless of amount is subjective based on the appreciation of the covered person.

**[00:50:47.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Subjective, Your Honor, yes, pero based po dun sa mga parameters po under the law. So kasama po dun yung, yun nga po, i-evaluate yung profile ng client, ano ba yung mga nature ng transactions po niya na papasok labas, gaano karami, gaano kadalas, and then yung pong, of course, may mga... In-issue po ang AMLC as well as other regulators po ng mga potential red flags based din po sa mga studies at saka mga guidelines po namin. So, they have to consider all of this together, Your Honor.

**[00:51:16.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Without belaboring the point, as you said, subject to the audit of AMLC, of SEC, of IC, of BSP, there is a wide discretion on the part of a covered institution whether or not to declare a transaction suspicious or not.

**[00:51:33.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I would answer that yes your honor because and let me clarify po so as not to mislead this honorable court po. Different covered persons have different profile of their clients because of the nature of the services that they render your honor. So yung bangko po Halimbawa po malaking bank o universal bank or commercial bank, more likely po ang mga clients po niya medyo affluent, yung po medyo mayaman or malaking business po. So yung profile po ng clients niya, siyempre ibabase po niya dun sa, yung pag-report po niya kung suspicious or hindi, base po dun sa client niya. Kung meron po tayong isang e-wallet, halimbawa po e-wallet or maliit na pawn shop, Siyempre po, yung profile po ng mga customer niya, iba po dun sa isa. So, they have to tailor po yung pag-profile, pag-analyze po. At lahat po yung documented po kasi required po yun sa tinatawag natin na money laundering and terrorism financing prevention program. Ang dami po mga reports na sinasubmit sa, or required po under the law, regulations po namin, pati ng BSP, SEC, IC po. So, totoo po na subjective, pero... Hindi po siya subjective na parang one tone or parang random na o sige parang okay ito ganyan i-file natin. Hindi po. Kasi po ang dami pong depende po sa profile, customer, sa service, sa risk po ng client po, nung service, kasama din po yun. So, ayun po your honor. So, and of course subject to the audit pa rin po yun ng mga institutions po, financial regulators po.

**[00:53:15.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you for that clarification.

**[00:53:17.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Your witness, Attorney Martin.

**[00:53:18.560] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just a few more points on this. At any rate, the filing of STRs is a compliance measure and not a legal conclusion of illegal activity, correct?

**[00:53:30.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
It's a requirement under the law, Your Honor.

**[00:53:33.100] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Not a conclusion of illegal activity, correct?

**[00:53:36.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Of legal...

**[00:53:37.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Illegal activity.

**[00:53:38.840] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Illegal activity. Yes, sir. We cannot determine illegality on the premise of just a report, Your Honor.

**[00:53:47.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In other words, an STR is therefore not a legal conclusion that there is money laundering, correct?

**[00:53:55.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
A legal conclusion that there

**[00:53:57.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
is money laundering? Yes, Your Honor. It's actually even for the courts to decide whether there

**[00:54:02.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
is

**[00:54:03.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
money

**[00:54:03.660] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
laundering.

**[00:54:04.580] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And similarly, it is not a legal conclusion that the transaction is illegal, correct?

**[00:54:11.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Again, Your Honor, it's also for the courts if eventually a case is filed, Your Honor.

**[00:54:17.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yesterday, you were confronted with several STRs and you even read several explanations from banks why they categorize those transactions as suspicious. Nalala niyo po?

**[00:54:28.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:54:29.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In fact, may three slides. Nakikita niyo po ba yung slides kahapon nung binabasa niyo yung STR?

**[00:54:34.490] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Doon po ba?

**[00:54:35.230] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Oo. Hindi niyo nakikita yung slides kahapon?

**[00:54:37.770] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Near

**[00:54:37.890] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
-sighted po

**[00:54:38.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
eh.

**[00:54:38.790] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
By the way, for the record, did you personally consent to the flashing of those slides yesterday?

**[00:54:55.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I'll

**[00:54:56.170] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
confront you with the specific slides yesterday. Yesterday kasi may pinalabas na slide, may nakalagay DPWH flood control issue. Nakita niyo po yan?

**[00:55:06.650] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi po nakita

**[00:55:07.810] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
yan.

**[00:55:08.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Nakita niyo yung Shabu importation?

**[00:55:10.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa slide, yung tanong niyo po is yung sa slide po. Hindi ko po nakita, you're on.

**[00:55:14.750] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Nabasa niyo lang doon sa records.

**[00:55:16.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung pinapoint lang po, you're on.

**[00:55:18.930] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Nakita niyo ba doon yung malversation of public funds and property? Do you recall that or hindi na?

**[00:55:24.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Parang, parang po

**[00:55:25.830] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
may naririnig po.

**[00:55:27.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Meron.

**[00:55:27.690] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Now, at any rate, hango ang mga ito sa STRs na ipinasa ng mga bangko, correct?

**[00:55:35.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[00:55:36.170] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. And then inisa-isa doon kahapon yung mga reference numbers, yung mga dates. Now, dun sa tatlong binanggit ko na subject matters, DPWH flood control issue, Shabu importation, tsaka yung malversation of public funds and property, nagbase ang mga banks sa news articles na available to the public. Tama?

**[00:55:56.270] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Your

**[00:55:56.410] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Honor, this witness will be incompetent and testify

**[00:55:58.310] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
based on what

**[00:55:58.990] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
he read yesterday. He read that yesterday. Pero

**[00:56:02.210] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
hindi ko na po maalala sa dami po nung... Mga naging tanong kung pwede po makita ko ulit. So I can confirm po, Your Honor.

**[00:56:09.780] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, our predicament is what was presented yesterday was the court's copy and we don't have our individual copies because we marked No, no, no, Your Honor. We marked actually the prosecution's exhibit as well. So the court's copy has the signature of the prosecution and defense.

**[00:56:33.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Allow me to bridge the gap. Attorney Ronel, you remember reading from the actual reports yesterday, what was flashed on the screen that you could not see? You remember reading the reason why it was considered suspicious, why it was reported?

**[00:56:51.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Marami po pinabasa, Your Honor.

**[00:56:52.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Tatlo, apat

**[00:56:53.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
lang po yung kahapon ko, naalala ko.

**[00:56:55.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
May meron po yung mahaba po, Your Honor. So I can't recall that I was asked to read, Your Honor.

**[00:57:01.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
About three or four times, right? And that reference to newspaper articles were mentioned in all of those references. Would you recall that?

**[00:57:11.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I am unable to recall, Your Honor, if I may be confronted with the documents.

**[00:57:16.930] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, we can just move on to a new point.

**[00:57:19.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Anyway, he said... Try to get the TSN counsel, but in the meantime, kindly move on and we can confront the witness with what he read yesterday.

**[00:57:28.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Based

**[00:57:29.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
lang dun sa vague memory niyo, no? Based on the STRs alone, masisiguro ba ng AMLC na involved yung transactions ni VP Sara sa DPWH flood control issue?

**[00:57:44.910] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Based on STR, masisiguro. We have to conduct pa po analysis, investigation if

**[00:57:52.670] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
warranted po.

**[00:57:53.750] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So the short answer is no. Based on the STRs alone.

**[00:57:56.900] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:57:58.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Based on the STRs alone, masisiguro ba ng AMLC na involved yung transactions ni VP Sara sa Shabu importation?

**[00:58:05.960] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Your

**[00:58:06.300] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Honor, at this point, to borrow the words of the defense, I've already given them so much leeway in asking these questions. The witness has already testified. that whether or not an illegal activity has been committed is not for them to rule on or to decide. It's for the courts. So, this line of questioning, Your Honor, would be relevant.

**[00:58:27.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, I'm confronting the witness with specific STRs that he recalled from yesterday. I

**[00:58:33.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
believe it's only fair, counsel, to confront the witness with what he read yesterday. If indeed... If indeed they have personal knowledge or can say that these are valid and true. So, witness has been confronted with respect to the flood control. Where are you now at?

**[00:58:51.750] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Shabu Importation, Your Honor. I

**[00:58:53.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
guess it's the same answer. Kindly answer, Attorney Ronel.

**[00:58:56.770] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Based on the STRs alone, ba masisiguro niyo ba na-involve yung transactions ni VP Sara sa Shabu Importation?

**[00:59:05.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Alone, Your Honor.

**[00:59:06.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
We

**[00:59:06.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
have to

**[00:59:06.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
conduct further investigation if needed or warranted, Your Honor.

**[00:59:09.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Huli na po. Base po dun sa STRs, masisiguro niyo po ba ng AMLC na involved yung transactions ni VP Sara sa malversation of public funds or property?

**[00:59:19.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
On that alone, no, Your Honor. We have to verify and conduct investigation if

**[00:59:23.680] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
necessary.

**[00:59:24.180] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We're okay with that. Thank you, Mr. Attorney Beneventura. Now, the CTRs and STRs for corporations

**[00:59:36.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Do you recall submitting those as well? For corporations, yung nakalista kanina.

**[00:59:44.410] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I'm

**[00:59:45.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
just laying the basis. Now, they also do not prove that VP Sara, through any of these corporations, committed money laundering, correct?

**[00:59:55.260] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
On

**[00:59:55.840] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
the basis of the CTRs, STRs alone, Your Honor. Not at that point, Your Honor.

**[01:00:01.600] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay.

**[01:00:01.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And may mga transactions na attributed to these corporations. Hindi naman lahat ng income ng corporations ay income din ni VP Sara at attorney months, correct?

**[01:00:15.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I have no

**[01:00:15.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
personal knowledge on the income of the persons or entities you've mentioned, Your Honor.

**[01:00:20.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. And unless there is a showing that these corporations are wholly owned by VP Sara and attorney months, Their actual interests therein must be specifically defined before the CTRs and STRs can be attributed to them.

**[01:00:46.770] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yung mga interest nila doon sa corporation na yun must be specifically defined. Kailangan malaman natin. Before yung CTRs or STRs can be attributed to the couple. Tama po?

**[01:00:57.650] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your

**[01:00:58.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Honor, yung CTRs and STRs po kasi namin hindi naman po namin nire-require na at least at that point to identify who owns or what owns po eh. So we are unable to confirm that or to answer that it's not. Based on the records you're on.

**[01:01:13.900] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
At any rate, iba yung pang corporation. Iba yung para sa mag-asawa.

**[01:01:17.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[01:01:18.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In terms of the CPRs.

**[01:01:19.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
In the way, yes, sir.

**[01:01:21.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Reported separately you're on.

**[01:01:22.700] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, to mention sa news article kanina si former Senator Terlianes, let me direct your attention to exhibits D-2-2 and D-2-1. May I be shown with that? I'll just read the title.

**[01:01:38.690] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
This is an issue once from the AMLC. I understand that

**[01:01:46.630] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
BSP-AMLC, deny releasing alleged Duterte bank account documents. And then there's a highlighted portion there says, Banko Sentral ng Pilipinas, BSP, and the AMLC, Anti-Money Laundering Council, are not the source of the documents and information being cited by a vice presidential candidate.

**[01:02:11.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
This was sourced from the website of AMLC.

**[01:02:19.320] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Hindi niyo ba nakikita yung naka-highlight po?

**[01:02:23.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi, yung masyado po maliit. Ano po yung naka-highlight?

**[01:02:26.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly point it out as listening counsel is directed.

**[01:02:30.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
My question is this, based on the records of the AMLC, maybe we're not yet around, but based on the records, do you know If former Senator Trillanes requested files from AMLC in the past?

**[01:02:45.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I am unable, since this matter is not included in this opinion, Your Honor, I was not able to...

**[01:02:51.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Review?

**[01:02:52.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes,

**[01:02:53.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[01:02:53.400] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay lang po. But let me ask you this general, more general question. Is it even legal for a third party like former Senator Trillanes to request access... to files from the AMLC database such as CTRs and STRs.

**[01:03:08.620] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Misleading, Your Honor, because there has been no prior testimony that Senator Trillanes in fact requested documents from AMLC. Okay.

**[01:03:14.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No, I said

**[01:03:15.840] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
third party

**[01:03:16.440] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
like former Senator Trillanes. Just

**[01:03:18.700] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
the same, Your Honor. There has been no testimony. On record yet that a third party has in fact requested documents.

**[01:03:26.770] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Then

**[01:03:27.130] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I'll remove the name. I'll paraphrase the question. Is it even legal for a third party to request access to files from the AMLC database such as CTRs or STRs? Legal po ba yun?

**[01:03:37.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, they can request but we'll have to evaluate and if more likely deny based on our rules and guidelines.

**[01:03:45.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
More likely deny. Okay. Paano po kung isang forensic expert, for example, gusto mag-aral ng financial history po? Ni VP Sara at Atty. Mans. Mari po bang lumapit sa AMLC at humingi ng access sa mga CTRs at STRs?

**[01:04:00.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I would say no, Your Honor.

**[01:04:01.820] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No. Okay.

**[01:04:04.380] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Atty. Bonaventura, malaki po yung mga aggregate amounts contained in your tabular summaries. Pero para lang po maliwanag, yung tabular summaries and reports po ba na yun ay conclusive proof of VP Saras and Atty. Mans Cash on hand or cash in bank?

**[01:04:27.490] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your Honor. What the records would only show are the transactions, not the cash in hand or cash on

**[01:04:34.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
hand.

**[01:04:34.830] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Yung tabular summaries and reports po ba nayon ay conclusive proof of unexplained wealth on the part of VP Sara?

**[01:04:43.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, all I can say is the tabulation is based on the reported transactions, Your Honor.

**[01:04:51.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, you cannot...

**[01:04:56.480] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Are they conclusive proof of ill-gotten wealth on the part of VP Sara?

**[01:05:01.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
For the same answer,

**[01:05:03.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I can only rely on what's provided in the record, Your Honor.

**[01:05:06.280] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just as they are not conclusive proof of the true wealth of VP Sara in attorney months as declared in their SALNs, correct?

**[01:05:15.210] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I have no knowledge on their SALN, Your Honor, but again, this is only based on the reported transactions, Your Honor.

**[01:05:21.570] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, so in other words, Atty. Buenaventura, as AMLC Director, you simply do not have personal knowledge that will clearly establish that VP Sara amassed hundreds of millions or billions, tama?

**[01:05:37.880] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I have no personal knowledge, Your Honor, but what I'm testifying only is What are indicated in the records regarding transactions reported to us, Your Honor?

**[01:05:49.150] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Thank you for that answer. That would be all, Your Honor.

**[01:05:56.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Attorney May, any redirect?

**[01:05:58.210] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor. We'll be conducting a few redirects, Your Honor. But may I just, Your Honor, be given time to organize the questions? Given the number of questions that were propounded throughout the cross-examination.

**[01:06:11.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We'll give you a few minutes, Attorney May. Probably one or two senator-judges to intervene with the permission of Attorney Mark as well because you will be having a Yuri Cross still. They do depend. So the chair will allow senator-judges to make their interjections in the meantime. The first one on my list based on yesterday's...

**[01:06:35.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
On Annika's list yesterday is the Honorable Ontiveros. Senator Judge Ontiveros is recognized.

**[01:06:43.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed ma'am when you're ready. You have two minutes.

**[01:06:53.910] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Salamat po Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang umaga po Atty. Buenaventura.

**[01:06:58.130] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Magandang umaga po Honorable Senator Judge.

**[01:07:02.790] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So nabanggit po na may mga covered at saka suspicious transaction reports sa 319 million pesos na pumasok sa Cale88 mula sa China. Kasama po sa red flag ay dahil walang lehitimong transaksyon sa likod ng perang pinadala.

**[01:07:27.030] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Inimbestigahan na po ba ng AMLOC ang mga Chinese companies na katransaksyon ng Cale88?

**[01:07:35.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I'm unable to answer po with that. The only documents related to what we were subpoenaed po, yung pong mga nasubmit po namin na summary report po, financial investigation report, financial investigation report, Antony Carpio, confidential information sharing, Your Honor.

**[01:08:01.550] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So, hindi po ito mga bunga pa ng investigasyon ng AMLAC dun sa mga Chinong katransaksyon na kumpanya ng Cale88?

**[01:08:11.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I am unable to answer, Your Honor.

**[01:08:13.790] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Alright po. Kaya ako po ito tinanong dahil tinignan ko ng opisina ko yung mga ito, yung mga binanggit na mga kumpanya kahapon at lumalabas na ilan? Sa nagpadala ng pera sa Cale88 ay mga Chinese state-owned enterprises. Isa na po doon yung pinakitang China National Township Enterprises. Base po sa research ng opisina ko, dating quote directly under the Ministry of Agriculture.

**[01:08:49.120] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
At naging isang, quote, large state-owned agricultural enterprise under the supervision of the State-Owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the State Council, close quote.

**[01:09:04.810] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
At sa public profiles po ng China National Township Enterprises na yon, binibida nung kumpanya na sila daw ay, quote, committed to serving the implementation of the country's Belt and Road Initiative and foreign policy. Yun namang isa pa po na pinakita kahapon, Beijing Zhen Weifang Food Company. Ayon sa open source research, pagmamayari po yan, Beijing Zhen Weifang Food Company pagmamayari siya ng Xinjiang Fruit Industry Group na nabanggit mismo sa company materials. I'll just finish, wrap up with this first question, Mr. Presiding Officer. Nabanggit mismo sa company materials ng Xinjiang Fruit Industry Group. ngayong 2026. Kumpirmado din po itong Xinjiang Fruit ay series A investor sa Beijing Zhenwei Fang. Mayroon ding strategic cooperation agreement itong dalawang kumpanya, yung Beijing at saka yung Xinjiang mula pa 2019. Bakit po ito mahalaga ah, Atty. Buenaventura? Dahil itong Xinjiang Fruit Industry Group ay hindi ordinaryong kumpanya. It's a Chinese state-owned enterprise. It advances the interests of the Chinese Communist Party. Sa mismong corporate governance structure ng Xinjiang Fruit, may institutional Chinese Communist Party organization na naka-embed. It has its own Chinese Communist Party Committee, Party Committee Organization Department, at 11 subordinate subcommittees o party branches. Lumalabas rin po na yung chairman ng Beijing Zhenwei Fang ay miyembro ng District Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference o CPPCC. Ayon sa isang US Economic and Security Report, delegates to the CPPCC serve as proxies for Chinese Communist Party interests and they frequently act as interlocutors with foreign government officials, businesses, and academic institutions. Sa Canada naman, sinabi na the premier overt United Front organization is the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. At sa isang report naman sa Australia, parte ng Key united front groups and events linked to foreign interference ang CPPCC at nilarawan nito bilang peak united front forum. So ang tanong ko po, Atty. Buenaventura, yung mga ganitong linkages ba ay tinitignan ng AMLANC?

**[01:12:00.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, apologies po.

**[01:12:04.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
At this point po yung na-cover po nung subpoena is only on the records. Apology po hindi po kung makatulong sa talong po ninyo but I'm able to answer that po at this point, Your Honor.

**[01:12:15.980] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
No apologies necessary. But as head of the AMLAC Secretariat, would you say na cause for concern yung ganyang mga transaksyon under these circumstances?

**[01:12:26.880] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I note po the... I have to... Review po yung binanggit niyo po. Hindi ko po napuha lahat po, Your Honor. But we'll take note naman po yung nabanggit po ninyo.

**[01:12:41.440] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Salamat, Atty. Buedavan Tuda.

**[01:12:43.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
It's alright po.

**[01:12:43.920] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[01:12:45.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you,

**[01:12:45.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Honorable Tiveras. Senator Judge Bam Aquino, thereafter, Atty. Mayor Ropp, after Senator Judge Bam.

**[01:12:55.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, Senator Judge Bam.

**[01:12:57.910] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Sorry, Your Honor. May I be given more time, Your Honor?

**[01:13:01.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Let's see after Senator Judge Ban.

**[01:13:03.840] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Actually, my first question is for Attorney May. Just a quick

**[01:13:07.840] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
question.

**[01:13:08.360] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Then in that case...

**[01:13:09.340] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Sorry.

**[01:13:11.220] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Okay, so let me... First of all, thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Attorney May, nais ko lang malaman rin kung ano talaga yung nais nating maipakita dito sa witness na ito. So, after this witness, ang susunod yung mga bangko. Is that correct? And possibly today, right?

**[01:13:32.080] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:13:32.740] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
And yung tanong na magkano ba talaga yung nasa bank account ni Vice President Sara at ni Atty. Carpio, yan ba ay masasagot ng next witness natin? Yan ang kanilang testimonya.

**[01:13:48.240] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
I am unaware, Your Honor, as to the substance of the testimony of the subsequent witness.

**[01:13:52.360] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Pero yan ang tatanungin ninyo.

**[01:13:53.460] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor. And we will try to bridge and to tatahiin po yung mga testimonies ng mga witnesses.

**[01:14:02.230] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Okay, exactly. So, kumbaga, meron tayong pieces of the puzzle ngayon. May magsasabi kung ano yung laman ng account. Itong si witness, si Atty. Buenaventura, tama ba, Atty. Buenaventura, what you can testify is that billion piso ang dumaan sa mga account nila. Yun ang, can you say that with certainty na bilyong piso ang dumaan sa mga account na sinopina sa araw na ito?

**[01:14:27.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
based on our tabulation your honor there are billions at least as indicated po there are transactions that are billions po yung 4.4 po tsaka yung millions po dun sa other entities na indicated po so at least in so far transaction po yes

**[01:14:47.790] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
okay labas-pasok yan diba labas-pasok

**[01:14:50.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As reported po, Your Honor.

**[01:14:52.530] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Sinagot mo kanina, sabi mo, hindi mo masasabi kung magkano yung nasa laman ng account at anytime pero alam mo na may perang labas-pasok at yung total niyan, billion. Tama ba?

**[01:15:02.250] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po, nagka-transaction po.

**[01:15:03.810] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
You're

**[01:15:04.250] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
certain about that?

**[01:15:05.210] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes,

**[01:15:05.410] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[01:15:05.550] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
That is

**[01:15:05.730] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
your report?

**[01:15:06.390] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Based on our report, Your Honor.

**[01:15:07.990] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Thank you. Sige, so itong labas-pasok yung billion, magkano yung laman, tapos eventually, I think BIR rin yung dadating dito, ano yung dineklara? Ano yung nasasalihan? Yan yung mga binubuo natin dito sa article na ito.

**[01:15:21.110] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Long and short of it, Your Honor, among others, Your Honor, ipapakita namin na merong disproportion sa mga disclosures and with the figures appearing from the AMLC records, from the banks, also, Your Honor, ipapakita rin po namin na sa

**[01:15:43.120] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
AMLC records, Your Honor, it's not even the entirety. of the supposed transactions.

**[01:15:53.810] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Question.

**[01:15:55.830] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Yung AMLC report refers to covered persons. Pag sinasabi mong covered person, yan yung mga bangko. Tama ba?

**[01:16:01.490] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Tama po.

**[01:16:02.430] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Yung mga bangko kasama sa report na yan, yan rin ba yung mga pinatawag natin sa araw na ito ng mga bangko?

**[01:16:09.130] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes po.

**[01:16:09.870] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Yes. So, konektado lahat ng mga testimonyang ito. Tama

**[01:16:13.390] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
ba, Atty. May?

**[01:16:14.130] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes po.

**[01:16:14.570] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Sige. Question for Atty. Ronald. Thank you, Atty. May. Salamat.

**[01:16:18.070] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Thank you, Ronnie.

**[01:16:19.100] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
So yung mga banko magbibigay ng STR sa inyo and then kayo, based on those reports, na to be fair, sometimes galing nga sa dyaryo, itutuloy nyo yung investigation dyan. Tama ba?

**[01:16:30.840] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. Subject to prioritization po because we receive po millions po of STRs din. So, and limited din po yung capacity namin and yung resources po. So, we have to prioritize po yung mga pag-investiga po. And

**[01:16:46.720] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
eventually, pwede kayo magrekomenda ng kaso?

**[01:16:50.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:16:51.080] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Kanino kayo magrekomenda ng kaso?

**[01:16:52.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, depende po doon sa kaso kung ang

**[01:16:58.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung part pa po ng investigation at kailangan po namin ng additional information po, kadalasan po nagpa-file po kami ng bank inquiry, petition po sa court po, court of appeals, and then para ma-insure po na ma-preserve din yung pera, nagpa-file din po kami ng freeze order. Pero pag nabuo na po namin yung kaso po, case build up na po, nabuo na. Depende po kung ano yung level ng evidence namin kung kaya na po yung reasonable doubt, may file po money laundering criminal case complaint po.

**[01:17:32.490] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
With DOJ?

**[01:17:35.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
DOJ po or ombudsman kung pasok po sa jurisdiction po ng Sandiganbayan.

**[01:17:41.050] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Okay,

**[01:17:41.250] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
so just for my understanding, for this year, have you filed any cases against anybody this year?

**[01:17:47.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:17:48.390] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
You have?

**[01:17:48.910] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:17:49.450] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
So, tuloy-tuloy. So, even without the impeachment case, tuloy-tuloy ang trabaho ng MLC?

**[01:17:53.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:17:54.810] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Okay. Could you give us a number? Mga ilan ng kasong na-file-an ninyo sa Ombudsman or sa DOJ?

**[01:17:59.950] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Maybe last year or

**[01:18:01.170] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
this year?

**[01:18:02.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
May binilalabas po kaming mga annual report po, Your Honor. I think na-furnish po yung Senate but I can give you na lang po after if you need po.

**[01:18:10.670] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
More than 10? More than 20?

**[01:18:12.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Baka more or less po. More than.

**[01:18:14.690] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Okay. Sige.

**[01:18:15.650] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Final question. Nabanggit kanina ni Atty. Vin Luan yung Tapang at Malasakit Alliance. Kasama ba yun sa mga records natin na hiningi? Was that part of the records?

**[01:18:28.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala po. Wala po yun yun.

**[01:18:32.790] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But I never mentioned Tapang at Malasakit Alliance.

**[01:18:35.170] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I don't think he

**[01:18:35.530] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
mentioned that too. Well, somebody mentioned earlier na may perang pumasok. Wala ba?

**[01:18:40.790] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Wala po.

**[01:18:41.930] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
I'm sorry

**[01:18:42.550] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Atty. Vin Luan.

**[01:18:44.410] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
ED? Tapang at Malasakit Alliance, pinag-uusapan din. No, that was in your article in GMA News. It was referring to Tapang at Malasakit Alliance. Yung China denies giving money. That was Tapang at Malasakit Alliance.

**[01:18:58.960] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
That was from your slide. So the slide that was shown earlier, if I may finish, Presiding Officer, nakalagay China denies providing money and I think that is the donation to the Tapang at Malasakit. Tapang at Malasakit Alliance,

**[01:19:17.140] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
if I'm not mistaken. Or anyway, nasa dyaryo na naman to. Kasama ba yung Tapang at Malasakit Alliance sa mga records na binigay niyo sa prosecution or sa korte?

**[01:19:27.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your Honor. Those are not included in the subpoena, Your Honor.

**[01:19:31.100] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
May I

**[01:19:31.600] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
ask the prosecution, is there any move to have these records also subpoenaed?

**[01:19:39.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If I may, Senator Judge Van, Tapang at Malasakit is not A juridical entity, I believe, that may have an account or a policy covered by the MLC. Attorney Mark, you confirm it appeared in the article?

**[01:19:58.090] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just to clarify also, sorry, with all due respect, hindi rin po kasama dun sa Flinash namin article. Wala rin po.

**[01:20:04.590] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Okay,

**[01:20:05.210] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
maybe yung China denies providing money in another article, it referred to the tapang at malasakit. I have no

**[01:20:10.850] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
personal knowledge. Thank you. So, ito na pag-uusapan na rin ito, Atty. May, na bring up na rin yung possible donations from China. Will there be any move to get the records of Tapang at Malasakit Alliance?

**[01:20:23.860] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
We are considering it, Your Honor.

**[01:20:25.380] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding

**[01:20:26.080] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino**  
Officer.

**[01:20:26.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Maraming salamat. Thank you, Sen. Judge Bah Makino. Next would be, we won't count that against the time of Atty. May because she was asked the questions. Sen. Judge Rafi Tulfo, misrecognized. I see your hand, Senator Judge Pangilinan, but Senator Judge Raffi is recognized. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes.

**[01:21:01.940] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Mr. Witness, throughout the direct examination kahapon sa iyo, ang daming covert and suspicious transactions nabanggit. So, as Executive Director of AMLOC, would you know if your agency went to the Court of Appeals or CA ex parte? para humingi ng freeze order to investigate these possible acts of money laundering?

**[01:21:25.650] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I'm unable to disclose po. If any, Your Honor.

**[01:21:30.280] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
You did

**[01:21:31.000] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
not.

**[01:21:31.340] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Okay.

**[01:21:32.650] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay. Sa mga na-flag nyo ng mga suspicious transactions, ano mga binigay ng Cale88 na justification? At hininga nyo ba sila ng kontrata or documents to give economic reasons for the deposits?

**[01:21:49.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, yung sa amin po, pag nagre-report po yung covered person, it's just a report, so nagbabase lang po kami dun sa narrative nila. So tulad po nun, yung karamihan po, if I recall, let me check lang po yung records ko po, Your Honor.

**[01:22:09.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung Cale88 po, Your Honor, halimbawa po yung covered transaction reports po na 178 po. Wala pong explanation po na hinihingi ang AMLC or ang AMLA po kasi po basta po pumasok po dun sa higit 500,000, required po silang report. So wala na pong explanation po yun. Yung pong may STR po na nabanggit dito, ang initial po na ginagawa po nila, in-identify po nila yung reason bakit po sila nagpa-file ng STR po.

**[01:22:41.590] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Hindi, kaya nga babalik ka po

**[01:22:42.510] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
dun sa unang katanungan. Well, dami na mga suspicious transactions. Paulit-ulit na lang. So wala kang ginawang aksyon para pumunta nga sa CA at i-investigahan to para i-tingnan kung mayroong money laundering activities to.

**[01:22:57.460] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, for Cale88, tatlo po yung STRs. As present po, hindi ko po masabi, I'm able to disclose po if on the action further taken po on this, Your Honor.

**[01:23:11.260] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay. Hindi pa ka-duda-duda na karamihan sa mga milyones na pondo na pumasok sa Cale88 ay galing sa mga bansang may critical na reputasyon sa money laundering, gaya halimbawa ng Russia, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, South Africa? Hindi pa ka nag-duda doon?

**[01:23:29.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, apologies po, I cannot make a conclusion. I have no personal knowledge on the current. status po of the other of the countries mentioned on the of their financial standing or money laundering standing in the international community po.

**[01:23:50.260] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Siguro si Atty. May, meron po akong question.

**[01:23:58.000] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Atty. May,

**[01:23:59.080] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
kasi natanggal yung pangalan ni Atty. Man Scarpio sa list of shareholders, corporate officers back in 2025.

**[01:24:08.790] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
It

**[01:24:09.250] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
seems to me that he couldn't have benefited from all the alleged transactions.

**[01:24:13.610] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
We respectfully beg to disagree, Your Honor. First, as will be testified on by the BIR representative, Your Honor, there is nothing on record that will show, Your Honor, that there was a valid transfer because no capital gains tax, no payment of capital gains tax is reflected in the BIR records. That's one, Your Honor. And we find this, Your Honor, the supposed transfer of shares highly suspect, Your Honor, because again, aside from the fact that there's no record that capital gains tax was paid, even in the very own disclosure of the Vice President in 2025, she disclosed that Cale88 remains a business interest of her husband.

**[01:25:05.700] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay. Hmm. Okay. Balik tayo dito kay Mr. Witness. Ang Cale88 na nakatanggap ng foreign currency deposit from China, according to records ito ah. Wala kang personal knowledge dito, records. Pinag-usapan natin. Dalama ba ng AMLC kung sino, anong korporasyon ang nagpadala dito?

**[01:25:26.020] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Nakatagap po, Your Honor, ng remittance po, Your Honor. Yes po, alam po namin, based po dun sa records po. Yung iba po dun ay... As I recall po, pinabasa po sa akin yung nagpadala po, Your Honor.

**[01:25:38.340] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay. Malalaman ba kung ito ay government company or government-owned companies or private people yung mga nagpadala ng pera?

**[01:25:51.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, hindi po namin malalaman. Wala po. Hindi po namin, hindi po required sa report na indicate kung ano po yung nature or specific nature po ng company po, Your Honor.

**[01:26:01.700] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay. Last na naman, Mr. Witness. Okay, last na naman po.

**[01:26:05.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed. You may proceed, Senator Judge Raffi.

**[01:26:08.910] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Thank

**[01:26:09.230] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
you very much. Kasi pag nalik yung bell, medyo nalulundag ako eh.

**[01:26:14.050] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Balikan po natin, Mr. Witness, ang mga foreign remittances na natanggap ng Cale88 galing sa China. Base sa mga CTRs at STRs na isinumiti sa hukumang ito, magkano pong natukoy po natin na nanggaling sa China o sa mga Chinese entities lahat?

**[01:26:32.590] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As based on the records po, Your Honor, let me refer lang po to my notes po. The amount indicated po in our tabular summary is P319,326,770.41 sa tapos po, Your Honor.

**[01:26:49.310] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Yan yung from China?

**[01:26:50.690] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes,

**[01:26:50.970] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[01:26:51.550] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay, sige. Yan muna po, Mr. President. Salamat po.

**[01:26:54.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank

**[01:26:55.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you, Senator Judge Raffi.

**[01:26:59.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
One more perhaps before we go to the redirect rather of Atty. May. Sen. Judge Sotto is recognized.

**[01:27:18.260] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Thank you. Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[01:27:24.080] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Atty. Ronel, minabanggit kanina eh and then this was mentioned in media about a so-called system glitch. Hindi ba ba? Connection to the BPI submitted list of 630 covered and 33 suspicious transactions in the account of Tony Carpio, total amount of 6.7 billion. And then sabi nila dito sa part of 6.7 billion, yung alleged 2 billion ay error or glitch. Diba? Ayaw nyo nang pag-usapan? Tama po ba yan?

**[01:28:02.630] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po ma-verify po, Your Honor, yung ibang figures po. Pero based po doon sa nabanggit lang po kanina, Your Honor, na nagkaroon po ng request si BPI po, Your Honor, based on the records, ng correction po, Your Honor.

**[01:28:15.930] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Ng correction. Yung 2 billion, naging 2 million. Hindi po ba? Ganun na lang nangyayari.

**[01:28:21.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung

**[01:28:21.390] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
pagkakaalala ko po, Your Honor, subject po doon sa mismong nakasulat sa records, Your Honor.

**[01:28:27.410] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
So, sa inyo galing yung confirmation eh, di ba, BPI?

**[01:28:34.160] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Nag-delete ng 13 erroneous covered transaction reports in this regard.

**[01:28:40.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, as explained earlier po, to clarify din po, the BPI made the request po and then we acted on the request by validating and conducting the necessary audit po to... To confirm whether nagkaroon ba talaga ng error in the reporting po. And we found po that there is and we granted the request po, Your Honor.

**[01:29:05.550] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
So you granted the request?

**[01:29:07.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. Yes,

**[01:29:09.250] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[01:29:09.990] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Kasi sa tagal na panahon na meron akong account sa banko, iba-ibang banko, ni minsan di ko nakaranas na may kakilala man lang ako na naging bilyonis eh. Dahil sa back system glitch, 2 billion, tapos nangyayari ba talaga ito?

**[01:29:33.770] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po masabi, Your Honor, but we did receive a request on that regard from BPI, Your Honor.

**[01:29:41.970] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Minsan lang yan.

**[01:29:43.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
At least from my time po as Executive Director, as far as I recall, Your Honor, this is first. But we receive po on a regular po yung mga sometimes may nagkakamali lang po talaga ng report na, or isa dalawa po, and then they submit the request. We validate po. Sometimes we grant, sometimes po hindi po. Yes.

**[01:30:09.500] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Would you know kung mga ilang accounts na nationwide ang nangyayaring ganito?

**[01:30:16.360] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
At

**[01:30:16.960] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
kung ano-ano mga bangko na naapektuhan ng ganito mga glitch?

**[01:30:21.100] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ay hindi ko po maisip or masabi po ngayon po, Your Honor.

**[01:30:29.200] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
For this alleged glitch na lang, ilang covered transaction reports ang sinasabing erroneous para makabuo na from 2 billion naging 2 million?

**[01:30:40.910] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung tanda ko po, Your Honor, based subject po sa records na nabasa ko po kanina, 13, 13 po, Your Honor.

**[01:30:48.370] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
13, tama. Hindi niyong nakarating sa amin eh.

**[01:30:51.250] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Ngayon

**[01:30:51.890] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
ito, glitches na ito, nangyari sa total account balance, issuance ng manager's check.

**[01:31:09.220] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
So

**[01:31:10.220] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
paano nangyayari ang glitch sa issuance ng marriages check?

**[01:31:24.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung glitch, Your Honor, hindi ko po masagot specifically but yung sa amin po is yung nai-report sa amin ay sabi po nila iba yung amount and then check po namin, validate po namin so makaiba po yung nakalagay so we corrected po accordingly po.

**[01:31:42.110] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Tama ba na itong glitches na ito or glitch na ito nai-report lamang dito sa inyo sa AMLOC AMLC during the impeachment proceedings? Hindi ron ni-report ito dati nung araw?

**[01:31:57.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung basic po sa binasa ko po kanina, if I recall po, we received the request po April 8, 2026 po, Your Honor. So I'm not sure po kung may impeachment proceedings na po at that time. Also for the record po, I assume po kasi April 14, 2026, Your Honor, as Executive Director.

**[01:32:20.590] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Alright.

**[01:32:22.640] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Just in case there's a second round, Mr. Presiding Officer, I'll ask the rest of my questions later.

**[01:32:29.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We will

**[01:32:31.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
do so, Senator Judge Sotto. For the record, the Chair would like to correct itself. Tapang at Malasakit Alliance for the Philippines Incorporated is a registered foundation. It is registered with the SEC. and has a juridical personality that may be covered, if at all, either via bank deposits or insurance premiums or investments and the like. So the chair stands corrected in relation to that.

**[01:33:14.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, Senator Judge Villanueva is recognized.

**[01:33:20.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For his interjections. You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready.

**[01:33:25.620] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Thank you, Sir Presiding Officer. Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, kabayan.

**[01:33:31.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Good morning po, Senator, Honorable Judge.

**[01:33:36.080] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Just

**[01:33:36.640] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
to be more precise, without totally ignoring the reports given to us, meron po bang separate report from 2022 onwards when the time na si VP Sarah assume office ang AMLAC?

**[01:33:52.800] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor, that is Table 3 of the report, yung tabular summary, Your Honor.

**[01:34:00.620] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Yes,

**[01:34:01.180] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
so

**[01:34:01.420] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
nakaseparate siya, no?

**[01:34:02.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo, all CTRs and STRs involving VP and Attorney Manassas Carpio, 2022 to 2025, Your Honor.

**[01:34:09.320] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Thank

**[01:34:09.660] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
you for that. Making that separation, Mr. Witness, what would be the aggregate inflows, outflows, and undetermined transactions? attributable to the period beginning 2022.

**[01:34:26.460] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Based on our tabular summary, Your Honor, it is 424,179,536 pesos, 0.10 centavos po, Your Honor.

**[01:34:38.100] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
At dito sa table 3, yung entire calendar years, nakalagay o, 171 CTRs, 49 STRs, and approximately 424 0.18 million combined reported transactions. Is that correct?

**[01:34:55.550] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. 424, 179, 536.10, Your Honor.

**[01:35:00.010] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Yes. And, Atty. Buenaventura, if you look at Table 2 and you talk about suspicious transactions, there is an interesting contrast in your summary. Yung GenCorp, nakalagay po dito, it reflects approximately 3 billion pesos in reported transactions. Pero, no STR. indicated in the table. Pero yung 888 bistro reflects a much smaller aggregate amounting to 43 million pesos pero merong 1,197 STRs. How should the court bilang isang husgado na itong nga exercises na ginagawa natin can properly understand that contrast?

**[01:35:44.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, Your Honor,

**[01:35:47.190] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Para po, honorable senator, just ipalawanag ko po.

**[01:35:53.510] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung, based lang po dun sa lo po, yung kung mas marami man po na CTR ang isang entity po, ibig sabihin lang po nun, marami po siyang transaction na mahigit po dun sa threshold na 500,000. So, ibig sabihin din po, Kung wala pong na-file na STR, kahit po sobrang dami ng transaction, ang tingin po ng covered person ay regular or wala pong presence ng any of the suspicious circumstances po. So, kaya po ganun. So, ganun din po doon sa isa pong nabanggit po ninyo na meron pong 1,197 na STRs, hindi po porket maliit yung amount, ay hindi na po may STR kasi ang hinahanap po ay Hindi po yung amount kundi yung kung meron pong suspicion or suspicious circumstances. So maaari pong maliit na maliit po yung amount pero marami po silang nakikita na suspicious circumstances sa mga transactions. So ire-report po nila ng ire-report po paulit-ulit po yan.

**[01:36:54.040] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
I was listening attentively dun sa cross-examination and you made mention that neither the amount nor the number of STR standing alone. would be enough or a reliable measure for illegality, unexplained guilt, or wrongdoing. Is that correct?

**[01:37:07.660] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yan.

**[01:37:08.420] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
And you also mentioned that it's not just the threshold. Pagka ito'y suspicious, it would fall under STRs. Kaya merong 1,197 STR. So kung ito ay you being a legal, I would say, bar top notcher, no? What would the court need to examine before attaching substantive significance to those 1,197 SDRs? The underlying transactions, the reporting reason or red flag the parties involved, and the eventual AMLC analysis?

**[01:37:50.620] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, hindi ko po masagot. It's for the impeachment court to decide kung ano po yung Direction po na gusto nilang...

**[01:37:58.510] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Ulitin ko

**[01:37:58.950] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
lang po, Mr. Presiding Officer, kasi binanggit niyo po, it would not stand alone and you need further verification, investigation, so that it would fall under this wrongdoing, etc. Ganon din po kasi kami dito, itong korte, ang talagang tinitignan po namin, yung Article 2, yung unexplained wealth. So, ano po yung kailangan makita para mag-fall po doon?

**[01:38:28.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I'm just relying lang po, Your Honor, dun po sa nabanggit nyo. Kung katulad po namin na we have to still conduct further investigation, then kung ganun po yung procedure po ninyo sa honorable court po na to, then I think that would also be kung ano po yung dapat nyo po gawin, Your Honor.

**[01:38:46.450] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
I would

**[01:38:46.770] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
just rephrase, no? Para lang makuha ko yung... Para nagkakaintindihan po tayo, when would be the time na you would recommend the filing of cases? Kasi sabi niyo nga po kanina, hindi mag-stand alone yung STR.

**[01:39:01.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kami po, at least sa side po ng AMLC po, we file cases po if we think meron na po sufficient evidence to satisfy po or to overcome po yung... Yung requirement po sa court na quantum of proof po.

**[01:39:14.170] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
And what is

**[01:39:14.630] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
that evidence you're looking for?

**[01:39:16.050] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung forfeit lang po civilly po, that is preponderance of evidence po. And then kung criminal case po, proof na yan, reasonable doubt. Pero kung as part of investigation po, probable cause lang po.

**[01:39:28.270] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Give me a leeway, Mr. Presiding Officer. Patanong po kasi ni Sen. Lito Lapid dito. Yung pong Atty. Buenaventura, yung issue po dito kasi nga again is unexplained well. Hindi lang po basta malalaking

**[01:39:44.260] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Meron po ba kayong maituturo na kahit isang transaction sa AMLC record na pwede po natin matrace hanggang sa isang specific asset na nakuha o na-retain ng respondent at makikita or allegedly hindi makikita sa kanya pong SALN? Meron po ba?

**[01:40:07.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I apologize po. I cannot answer po. Ang masabi ko lang po kung ano po yung nasa records po.

**[01:40:13.460] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
At kung hindi po ito kayang gawin ng AMLC records alone, ang direct tracing na yun, ano po kayang ebidensya ang kailangan bago masabing meron pong unexplained wealth?

**[01:40:28.430] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, with all due respect po, yung sa EMLC po kasi hindi po namin tinitignan kung may unexplained wealth or hindi. Ang tinitignan po namin kung may money laundering po or wala po or kung dapat po i-forfeit po or may probable cause po kung may money laundering. Yung apologies po, yung unexplained wealth po ay ito po yata is for the impeachment court to decide. So I don't want to put... Direction po sa court na not within my authority po, Your Honor.

**[01:40:57.150] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Thank you for clarifying that it means we really need to push harder and look for the evidence. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Thank you.

**[01:41:04.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. Attorney May, are you ready?

**[01:41:08.810] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:41:09.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, you may proceed with your redirect. Attorney Mark is likewise recognized for the redirect of Attorney May. You may proceed when you're ready, ma'am.

**[01:41:20.460] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Okay.

**[01:41:23.500] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Kanina po, on cross-examination, tinanong kayo ng pinanggalingan ng inward remittances to Cale88. Naalala niyo po ba yun?

**[01:41:37.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yun, Your Honor.

**[01:41:40.170] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Let me show you again several CTRs pertaining to those inward remittances that were reported to the MLC. Kindly refer to Exhibit P, Roman numeral number 2-7-23, pages 12a and 12b, 14th line.

**[01:42:03.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your

**[01:42:04.480] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Honor, objection. We never confronted the witness during cross-examination of these documents, so it is not the proper subject of redirect examination.

**[01:42:13.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, but you made mention of them. counsel. Only that the actual copies were not available yet to you at that time. In fact, the chair already got the TSN and I can furnish you in a bit for your recross if any. The chair will allow it. Witness will please answer.

**[01:42:34.810] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Pages 12A and 12B, 14th line.

**[01:42:38.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Are

**[01:42:38.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
these the same slides you showed, Attorney May?

**[01:42:42.190] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:42:43.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
During direct? Then it gives you an opportunity, Attorney Mark, to look at it as well for your recross because the documents were not available to you at that time.

**[01:42:54.860] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Maaari niyo po bang basahin yung address ng transaksyon na nakareflect dyan sa CTR na yan?

**[01:43:10.340] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, mayroon pong several addresses po na nakalagay.

**[01:43:18.170] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Can you kindly read them for the record?

**[01:43:21.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I-clarify ko lang po. Yung entry po dito is may address po. I think address po ng Cale88 may address po ng beneficiary pero blanco. May address po ng counterparty.

**[01:43:36.550] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yung counterparty po.

**[01:43:38.670] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ang nakalagay po dito ay counterparty address add.nanhanji, Innovation Industrial China.

**[01:43:50.920] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Okay, punta naman po tayo sa pages 12a and 12b, 15th line. Maaari niyo po ba rin basahin yung address ng counterparty na nakareflect dyan sa report na yan?

**[01:44:13.920] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
LTDRM8621NO599, Huignag, RD, Chengxi, China.

**[01:44:18.200] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Punta naman po tayo sa pages 22a to 22b, last line. Ano po ba ang...

**[01:44:28.540] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Address ng counterparty na naka-reflect dyan.

**[01:44:34.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Nakalagay po ay enterprisesco.ltd8f5, Nong, Giannan, Lucy, and Beijing, Chaoyang

**[01:44:45.420] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Punta naman po tayo sa pages 23a to 23b, first line. Maaari niyo po bang basahin yung address ng counterparty na naka-reflect dyan.

**[01:44:58.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
enterprisesco.ltd8 5, 5, Nong, Jan, Nanlu, CN, Beijing, Chaoyang.

**[01:45:08.210] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
And last, pages 17a to 17b, 13th line. Pakibasa rin po yung counterparty na nakasaad.

**[01:45:16.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Anong

**[01:45:24.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
line po?

**[01:45:25.840] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
13th line po.

**[01:45:26.660] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
13th line, yes.

**[01:45:41.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wanda, Road, Bayuan, Street, Yiwo, Zhejiang, CHN.

**[01:45:50.410] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Punta naman po tayo sa, kanina po, natanong din po kayo tungkol sa mga STRs relating to Cale88.

**[01:45:58.950] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Ngayon

**[01:45:59.550] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
punta naman po tayo sa Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-24B, page 2B. Maaari niyo po bang sabihin yung dahilan kung bakit nai-report as kahina-hinala yung transaksyon?

**[01:46:15.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I believe that was asked and answered already, Your Honor.

**[01:46:19.580] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Not yet, Your Honor. This is, I'm on redirect, Your Honor.

**[01:46:23.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yeah, but during direct, it was as an answer to review.

**[01:46:26.600] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
But this question's presented from the...

**[01:46:28.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We'll allow it, Attorney Mark.

**[01:46:31.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We'll allow it. We'll give you the same latitude and leeway on your recross.

**[01:46:35.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Witness may answer.

**[01:46:36.580] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sorry, Your Honor, your question po, saang page po, tsaka anong line?

**[01:46:40.820] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Page 2B.

**[01:46:41.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Page 2B. Which one po?

**[01:46:45.040] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
First three lines. Yung dahilan po kung bakit na-report as kahina-hinala. Yung transaction na covered ng STR na yan.

**[01:46:54.090] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. Yung first line po, the reason indicated is there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification. Yung second po, ang nalagay ay there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification. Yung pangatlo po ay there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification po, Your Honor.

**[01:47:16.750] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Okay.

**[01:47:17.880] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Thank you. Kanina rin po, tinanong din po kayo base sa kaalaman nyo sa corporate law. Naalala niyo po ba yan?

**[01:47:26.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Opo, sa limited na kaalaman ko po yan.

**[01:47:29.670] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Based po sa knowledge nyo on corporate law, ano po ba ang minamandate sa mga korporasyon kapag yung unrestricted retained earnings nito ay nag-exceed ng 100% of its capital, paid up capital?

**[01:47:52.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, and subject to what the law provides and to my limited knowledge po of corporate law, if there is 100% of the unrestricted retained earnings, they have to declare dividends po, Your Honor.

**[01:48:05.600] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
At

**[01:48:06.200] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
kapag ang korporasyon naman ay nagde-deklara ng dividends, sino po ang tumatanggap ng mga dividendo ng korporasyon?

**[01:48:14.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
And Your Honor, subject to what the law actually provides and to my limited knowledge po of corporate law, It's the stockholders po, Your Honor.

**[01:48:22.370] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
At kapag ang korporasyon ay mayroong dalawa lamang na stockholders, sino po ang tatanggap ng mga dividendo na diniklara ng korporasyon?

**[01:48:33.670] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. Speculative.

**[01:48:35.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What

**[01:48:35.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
do you mean by two stockholders, Attorney May? It's an OPC? It's an OPC with two registered stockholders?

**[01:48:45.330] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor. Or, yeah.

**[01:48:48.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Otherwise, it would be under the old law with five incorporators.

**[01:48:52.770] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:48:54.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If

**[01:48:54.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
he

**[01:48:55.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
knows.

**[01:48:57.290] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Subject to what the law actually provides and to my limited knowledge, Your Honor, the two stockholders will receive the dividends, Your Honor.

**[01:49:05.890] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
That would be all, Your Honor.

**[01:49:08.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you. Attorney Mark, yes, any recourse?

**[01:49:14.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just a few questions.

**[01:49:15.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, sir.

**[01:49:16.300] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
You mentioned, thank you, Your Honor. You mentioned or you were asked to read three addresses of business entities based

**[01:49:24.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
in China.

**[01:49:26.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes.

**[01:49:27.240] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yung kakabasa niyo lang po.

**[01:49:28.520] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes po.

**[01:49:29.100] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But based on AMLC records, again, just to reiterate, meron po ba kayong paraan para malaman kung legitimate o illegitimate itong mga businesses na ito?

**[01:49:37.970] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala po. Hindi po yung kasama sa naka-report.

**[01:49:40.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright.

**[01:49:40.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We're also confronted with the phrase, no underlying legal or trade obligation. Tama po? Yung binasa niyo po, kakabasa niyo.

**[01:49:48.630] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes po.

**[01:49:48.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po. You're

**[01:49:49.550] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
on.

**[01:49:49.750] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That is a direct lift from section, from the AMLA law, correct?

**[01:49:57.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Definitions ng suspicious transactions, yung purpose number 1 sa B-1.

**[01:50:02.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:50:03.230] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, ibig sabihin, mismong batas ang sasabi, Na pag there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose or economic justification, it is mandated to be reported as STR. Tama po?

**[01:50:16.770] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[01:50:17.490] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. You were also asked about the two incorporators or stockholders and clarifying the presiding officer. Nangyayari yun pag may OPC. Tama? Meron dyan sa report nyo, meron bang OPC dyan kahit isa?

**[01:50:38.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies po with respect to my limited knowledge on corporation law and subject to what the law actually provides. As far as I recall po, the revised corporation code now permits stockholders even below number of five, yung OPC po kapag isa lang po. So I would say na kahit less than five po can now be allowed, Your Honor. But nonetheless po, to answer the question po,

**[01:51:07.940] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Not to answer po. Hindi ko po ma-determine based doon sa CTR, sa names ng corporations sa CTRs or STRs kung sila po ay OPC or hindi po.

**[01:51:22.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Pero di ba required yun na ilagay mo na OPC sa corporate team mo?

**[01:51:26.580] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Argumentative, Your Honor.

**[01:51:27.580] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Not just if he knows, Your Honor. Only if he knows.

**[01:51:30.550] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As far as I recall, again, Your Honor, subject to what the law actually provides and to my limited knowledge of corporate

**[01:51:36.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
law, yes, Your Honor.

**[01:51:37.430] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Pero dun sa corporations na yun, wala naman nakalagay na OPC, tama?

**[01:51:44.790] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yung, sorry, corporation po. Dun sa nakalista dun sa tabular summaries niyo po. Wala namang OPC dun, di ba?

**[01:51:50.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa

**[01:51:50.550] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
tabular summary po, hindi, wala po kaming, yung

**[01:51:56.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
entities po ba, Your Honor?

**[01:51:58.410] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yung entities, yung corporations.

**[01:52:00.450] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Let me verify lang po yung subpoena, Your Honor.

**[01:52:28.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Based po sa supina po sa amin, Your Honor, wala pong nakalagay ng OPC.

**[01:52:33.260] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay

**[01:52:33.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po.

**[01:52:34.460] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
You were also asked about unrestricted retained earnings. Meron po ba kayong personal knowledge ng unrestricted retained earnings ng kahit ano pong corporation na nakalista dyan?

**[01:52:44.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala po. Wala po kaming records, Your Honor.

**[01:52:47.100] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That would be all, Your Honor.

**[01:52:48.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you. We have 1, 2, 3, 4... 5, 6, 7 Senators, let's try to do it and see how far we can go without counting those for round 2 before we break for lunch and see if we can dispense with this witness before we break for lunch. Senator Judge Lacson is recognized for his intervention.

**[01:53:14.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You have 2 minutes sir, you may proceed when you're ready.

**[01:53:17.060] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Thank you Mr. President Officer. Good morning

**[01:53:19.900] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Attorney.

**[01:53:21.910] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Good

**[01:53:22.430] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
morning po, Honorable Senator.

**[01:53:24.450] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Just for

**[01:53:24.690] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
our education, on a monthly basis, on the average, how many covered and suspicious transaction receipts do you receive and analyze in

**[01:53:38.060] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
a month?

**[01:53:38.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I have no immediate figures. Estimate po, we receive, at

**[01:53:46.880] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
least for last year po, we receive a total of about 200

**[01:53:54.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
120 million, if I recall, Your Honor. In a

**[01:53:57.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
year po, so that's about, kung average po, ang tanda ko po is about, siguro po, about 10 million po.

**[01:54:04.520] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
That's why

**[01:54:04.820] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
it's time-made kayo, diba, sa trabaho ninyo.

**[01:54:07.280] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes,

**[01:54:07.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[01:54:08.160] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
And that's also the reason why, for this year, I remember this, because ang finance committee chairman o new senate president, we worked to augment your budget along that line. We gave you 162 million. 941,000. So, are you coping up?

**[01:54:28.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Thank you po in the first place for your honor. Maraming po salamat for helping on that part. Yes po, we're trying to cope up po. But of course, yung based po dun sa nabigay po na budget, we allocated We're allocated po for the infrastructure and technology po. So, but that one po kasi syempre procurement and then we have to adjustment period po at this stage. But yes, we're trying to cope up na po on that one.

**[01:54:53.900] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Yeah, now I understand why you're having difficulty responding to questions either ng direct or sa cross. Kasi hindi mo maalala lahat, di ba?

**[01:55:04.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama

**[01:55:04.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po

**[01:55:04.580] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
yun.

**[01:55:04.780] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
In fact, sabi nga ni Santolito, ang kapal nung papel na pinapakita sa iyo. Mahirap talaga hanapin. Anyway, next question. Is the AMLC capable of conducting criminal investigation in pursuit of prosecution?

**[01:55:19.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your

**[01:55:20.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Honor.

**[01:55:21.220] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Or are you limited to financial investigation and evidence gathering to assist law enforcement agencies? Because money laundering is not a stand-alone crime or offense.

**[01:55:32.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. We can conduct on our own. We can conduct together with the law enforcement. We can conduct parallel investigation, Your Honor.

**[01:55:42.900] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
But you cannot conduct it alone. Kasi how can you investigate kidnap or ransom?

**[01:55:48.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:55:49.860] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
How can you conduct smuggling?

**[01:55:51.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. So,

**[01:55:53.040] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
mas financial investigation ang inyong participation?

**[01:55:56.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yun, Your Honor.

**[01:55:57.720] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
So, I was just wondering when you were asked kung ilan na yung kasong naimbisigan at na-efile? So, mostly this is in collaboration with other law enforcement agencies or assisting them, ano?

**[01:56:11.190] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[01:56:11.770] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Yung financial investigation.

**[01:56:12.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[01:56:13.050] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Okay, punta tayo doon sa political harassment. Natouch ito ni Atty. Bin Luan. Nare-record mo ba yung legislative intent nung Section 16, prohibitions against political harassment?

**[01:56:24.900] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies po, hindi po.

**[01:56:26.200] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Okay, ako ayaw magsasabi because I was here in 2001 when we passed 9160. This amendment was introduced by the late Nene Pimentel, Senator Nene Pimentel, because at that time, we were in the opposition. So, ang intent nito, doon lang sa election period, na hindi makukover ng batas lahat ng kandidato. And I remember, and Senator Kiko will attest to this, payag agad si Senator Delate. Both are late. had already passed on. Sabi niya, agreed, because time would come, kami naman ang nasa opposition, yun ang intent, hindi yung harassment per se, or harassment in the general sense of the word. So, if we go back and review the transcript, doon lang limited yun, yung section 16, prohibitions against political harassment, that's along

**[01:57:30.260] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Yung harassment, along the line ng harassment during campaign period. Kindly review that.

**[01:57:37.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo,

**[01:57:37.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
salamat po. Thank you po for the enlightenment po, Your Honor.

**[01:57:40.380] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Nakalagay doon eh. Sa second paragraph.

**[01:57:44.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Last few words. You may finish up,

**[01:57:48.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. At Sen. Judge Lacson.

**[01:57:49.770] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
No case for money laundering may be filed against and no assets shall be frozen, attached, or forfeited to the prejudice of a candidate. for an electoral office during an election period. Yeah.

**[01:58:02.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po, Your Honor.

**[01:58:04.180] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
So doon lang yun halos nakalimit, di ba? Kasi pagka, di ba, ako hindi ako bagado, pero alam ko, pag may konting vagueness, babalik tayo sa intent, di ba? So transcript. So hindi ito yung general sense na political harassment. I would just like to correct that, ano. Kasi doon nga yung nagkaroon ng issues si Senator Raffi na yung intimidation.

**[01:58:27.780] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Harassment. I would just like to clarify that. Next round na lang ulit ako, Mr. President Officer.

**[01:58:33.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, thank you very much, Senator Judge Lacson. The Senate President is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes.

**[01:58:40.640] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank you very much, Mr. President Officer. Magandang umaga, Atty. Bonaventura.

**[01:58:46.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Good morning po, Senate

**[01:58:47.300] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
President.

**[01:58:48.220] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Tinignan ko dito sa iyong report na merong pumasok 776 million sa Cali88 Foods. May inflow siya na 776 million. May outflow siya na 154 million. Ngayon, itong 776 million, ilang beses ko na binabalikan yung kanilang available na balance sheet. Hindi ko makita dito dahil ang kanilang paid up capital, yung kanilang capital dito ay 125,000 lang. Yung cumulative sales nila since 2021 is only 23 million. Ang assets nila 18 million. Ang liabilities is 20 million. So in your opinion, saan punta itong 776 million na pumasok?

**[01:59:48.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies, Your Honor. I am unable to give my opinion. I can only testify on the records and the records will not indicate where it went except on what is stated.

**[02:00:02.620] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Yung meron rin kanina na pag-usapan rin itong suspicious transactions at nasabi na merong, isa sa mga dahilan, there is no underlying legal or trade obligation purpose or economic justification. Anong ibig sabihin nito?

**[02:00:20.980] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Nasa suspicious transaction ito na

**[02:00:23.220] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Kale.

**[02:00:24.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I don't want to add po sana na interpretation po on that. It's what is indicated in the law po. There's no underlying legal trade obligation, purpose or economic justification.

**[02:00:35.710] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Can you give an example? For example, kung may pumasok na pera, walang invoice o resibo, pasok ba siya dito?

**[02:00:45.780] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
May pumasok na pera, pero wala namang mapakitang invoice, walang mapakitang resibo.

**[02:00:51.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hypothetical. Hypothetical po, Your Honor. Maari po. But we have to consider all other factors po. Yung profile po niya, mga previous transaction po, Your Honor.

**[02:01:01.060] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Meron pa isang dahilan. The amount involved is not commensurate with the business or financial capacity of the client. Anong ibig sabihin nito?

**[02:01:10.050] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, yun po yung nakalagay doon sa law. So I don't want to add. Meaning po, on that... Kung

**[02:01:17.380] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
meron, kung ang capital ay 125,000 tapos pumasok 776 million in sales or in cash, hindi natin alam kung sales or ano yun, pasok ba siya dito?

**[02:01:29.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
If wala pong...

**[02:01:31.260] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Is the capital commensurate to 125,000 commensurate to 776 million?

**[02:01:39.190] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I can answer, Your Honor,

**[02:01:41.270] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
but... Based on your analysis. Pasok ba siya dito sa dahilan na ito? Yun naman ang tanong ko.

**[02:01:47.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi

**[02:01:49.290] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
ko po makapagbigay, Your Honor, kasi I still have to check po yung nature talaga ng business entire. If based po dito sa juridical person po na ito, we have to conduct further investigation po if needed, Your Honor. Apologies po.

**[02:02:07.380] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Kasi kung hindi mahanap sa libro yung 776 million, candidate ba itong Cale88 for money laundering? In your expert opinion and in mga experience mo, dapat ma-reflect yan sa books, di ba? Eh hindi ma-reflect sa books. Isang candidate for money laundering?

**[02:02:27.700] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yaron, we'll have to further investigate po if... On

**[02:02:31.040] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
this example.

**[02:02:33.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As

**[02:02:33.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
starting point po,

**[02:02:38.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Difficult.

**[02:02:39.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
A starting point. A starting point, maaari po, maaari lang po. But I have to consider all other factors po.

**[02:02:47.040] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Pero

**[02:02:47.340] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
pwede siyang candidate for

**[02:02:49.440] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
money laundering.

**[02:02:52.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
We'll have to check po yung kung may predicate ka rin po.

**[02:02:54.740] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Pero pwede siyang maging candidate.

**[02:02:56.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung candidate lang po, yes. But we have to consider all other factors po.

**[02:03:01.180] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Ano

**[02:03:01.660] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
ang next step pag naging candidate na siya for money laundering?

**[02:03:04.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
In general, we have to determine kung ano po yung unlawful activity na maaaring pinanggalingan po ng pera or naging transaction po doon sa pera. So, hanapin po namin meron ba ito, ano yung involved ba ito sa kidnapping for ransom, involved ba ito sa drug trafficking.

**[02:03:27.990] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Dito nyo natitignan yung source nung... Pero kung saan siya nanggaling?

**[02:03:33.120] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo. Yung iba po kasi covered person po, they report na po. So may starting point po kami kung saan. Kung wala naman po, kami po yung magahanap po noon kung saan po namin, kung meron man po. Siyempre, hindi naman po namin ipipilit kung wala naman po talaga. So kung meron po, gagawin po namin yung trabaho po namin.

**[02:03:53.860] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
But

**[02:03:54.100] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
from your perspective, kailangan nyo malaman kung saan nanggaling yung pera?

**[02:03:58.170] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes po kasi requirement po yun for us under the law that the proceeds must come from illegal activity po.

**[02:04:09.850] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
So

**[02:04:09.970] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
dito nyo na rin titignan kasi kalahati nung sales nila galing ng China, dito nyo na rin titignan whether itong entity sa China legitimate or not.

**[02:04:19.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I cannot answer for this one, Your Honor. But in general lang po. In general po. In

**[02:04:24.480] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
general lang. In

**[02:04:25.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
general po. In the normal course of things, yes, it will be looked at. All factors po, Your Honor.

**[02:04:33.500] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[02:04:35.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank

**[02:04:35.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you, Mr. Senate President. Senator Judge Pangalino has recognized. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready. You have

**[02:04:39.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
two minutes.

**[02:04:41.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. A few questions for Attorney Divina Gracia. Just to Refresher memories.

**[02:04:52.430] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Tama na yung SEC witness the other time, the other day, testified as to Cale88, the GIS, tama? Do you recall that?

**[02:05:05.110] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, yes sir.

**[02:05:06.030] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
And that in the GIS, the Man Scarpio had 40%, will you recall that?

**[02:05:16.050] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
47.5%, po.

**[02:05:18.090] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
In what year?

**[02:05:19.840] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
2021 until 2024. In 2025 po, wala na po yung pangalan niya, napalitan na ito ng isang company, Pikimong.

**[02:05:28.920] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes, and that's why I think maybe the question is, given the latest information that we have obtained from the AMLA, should we now, well, I don't know, I will leave that up to the court to decide. also look into Pikimon because Man Scarpio was president from 2021 to 2024 40% umangat ng 47% sa Kale88 tapos noong 2025 wala na siya. Saka if I recall we were not able to

**[02:06:13.960] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Secure the audited financial statements of Cale88, is that correct?

**[02:06:19.180] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Wala po silang finial sa SEC.

**[02:06:23.120] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
That was also testified

**[02:06:24.240] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
too, no?

**[02:06:25.100] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Yes, Your Honor. Yes,

**[02:06:25.880] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
yes.

**[02:06:26.260] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Pero meron po silang inattach na audited financial statements sa naka-attach annual returns po nila sa BIR.

**[02:06:35.580] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay, so that will be presented, I assume, sa BIR. Pero wala silang audit. Would that be regular, yung failure to file audited financial statements?

**[02:06:46.980] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Hindi po. In fact, meron pong penalty for non-filing of financial statements.

**[02:06:51.640] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So he testified, tama ba yan? The SEC testified na walang audited financial statements.

**[02:06:59.580] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
For

**[02:06:59.780] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
2024 and 2025 po.

**[02:07:01.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
At

**[02:07:02.320] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
the time when the... Tama ba dinoong Buenaventura na yung 2024, 2025, Cale88 transactions na gumagaling China was 2024 and 2025?

**[02:07:19.940] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor,

**[02:07:22.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I cannot, based on the table, Your Honor, I cannot say, Your Honor, but our tabulation po kasi is from

**[02:07:32.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
2007 to 2025 for specific for Cale88 po. Yung isa po is 2022 to 2025, Your Honor.

**[02:07:40.880] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes, yes, 2022 to 2025.

**[02:07:43.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes

**[02:07:43.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po, yes po. So,

**[02:07:45.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
could you break that down? Ano ang pumasok from 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025?

**[02:07:52.840] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, there is no breakdown po in the, we were not able to prepare a breakdown on that. For specific country, but specific years po, but meron pong yung aggregate lang po yung meron na.

**[02:08:05.450] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay,

**[02:08:05.650] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
from 2022 to 2025, dun pumasok yung 319 million, tama ba?

**[02:08:11.800] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasama po yun sa pumasok.

**[02:08:13.660] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes, but from that period, 2022 to 2025?

**[02:08:21.700] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung

**[02:08:24.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
remittance po, Your Honor.

**[02:08:27.560] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes.

**[02:08:28.620] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung table 5 po, your honor, did not indicate po yung year po. Ang meron po kami na indicate na year ay yung CTRs, STRs transactions po noong table 4 po, 2022 to 2025. Doon po, yung Cale88 po, ang total aggregated amount po niya is 10 transactions po, 1,254,736.

**[02:08:58.570] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
1,254,736,297.08

**[02:09:03.150] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So from

**[02:09:04.190] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
the period 2022 to 2025?

**[02:09:06.710] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[02:09:07.430] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes, go ahead.

**[02:09:08.970] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
If I may, Your Honor, it's safe to assume that, Your Honor, because Cale88 was only incorporated in September 2001.

**[02:09:18.390] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay.

**[02:09:20.280] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Sorry, 2021. September 2021. And also, Your Honor, if I may just clarify, Your Honor, yung sa Piki Mong po na nabanggit kanina, it is our humble submission, Your Honor, that there was no valid transfer. Tulad nga po nang sinabi ko, there was no valid transfer because there is no record of any e-car documenting the transfer from Attorney Man Scorpio to Piki Mong. And also, Your Honor, even in the 2025 SALN, of the Vice President, she still disclosed Cale88 as among the business interests.

**[02:09:54.820] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
In 2020?

**[02:09:56.040] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
2025, December 31, 2025, SALN.

**[02:10:01.460] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay. So, just to put it all together, KL88 was incorporated in 2021. From the period of 2022 to 2025, The AMLA records are saying there was transactions amounting to 1 point how many billion?

**[02:10:24.350] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
1,254,736,297.08 based on record. Tabular summary.

**[02:10:32.790] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
And

**[02:10:33.150] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
in 2022 to 2024 from 40% stockholder owners Si Man Scarpio naging 47% by 2024. But then in 2025, wala na siya.

**[02:10:49.990] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Wala po sa GIS.

**[02:10:51.470] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Wala na

**[02:10:51.790] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
siya sa GIS at pikimong-pikimong na.

**[02:10:54.610] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Pikimong-pikimong.

**[02:10:56.030] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay. Okay. So, okay.

**[02:11:00.010] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Maraming mga interesting na maaari nating tanungin sa SEC and then sa BIR. Thank you. No further questions.

**[02:11:11.710] Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia**  
Thank you, Your Honor.

**[02:11:14.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What

**[02:11:20.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
is

**[02:11:20.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the pleasure of the senator judges? We have Senators Erwin Tulfo, Padilla for round one. Thereafter, Senators Pia Cayetano, Sotto, Ontiveros, and Lacson for round two. May dagdag ba?

**[02:11:38.610] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Pwede ako naman sinabi ko.

**[02:11:42.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ah, okay.

**[02:11:45.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, we pause for lunch?

**[02:11:48.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Nakatayo ka na dyan, walang time magagawa.

**[02:11:51.390] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Kaya

**[02:11:51.890] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
inunahan ko na, presiding

**[02:11:53.450] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
officer.

**[02:11:54.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Mukhang ayaw mo pa nga eh. Senator Judge Erwin is recognized.

**[02:11:59.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And

**[02:11:59.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
let's finish with Senator Judge Padilla. It's okay with Senator. So we finish with round one. Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo, you may proceed when you're ready, sir.

**[02:12:08.710] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Maraming salamat po, ginawang presiding officer, ginawang testigo. Ano ba ang AMLAC? At para saan po ito itinatag? Anong trabaho ng AMLOC?

**[02:12:19.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, Your Honor, yung AMLOC po ay nakreate po pursuan po sa batas po, Republic Act No. 960 or Anti-Money Laundering Act. Ang base po sa mandato niya under Section 2 ng law, under law po, ang nakalagi po doon ay to ensure that the Philippines shall not be used as money laundering site. for proceeds of unlawful activity. So kasama na rin po dito yung to ensure the integrity of the Philippine financial system po.

**[02:12:50.450] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Alright,

**[02:12:51.130] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
para sa kalaman po ng karamihan ng mga kababayan natin, ang ibig po ba sabihin ng money laundering, nililinis ang maruming pera, nilalabhan ang perang madumi, kung saan nanggaling ito kapag ipinasok sa lehitimong negosyo?

**[02:13:07.760] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Ay, mawawala na ang trail na galing ito sa marumi. Tama po ba ganun explanation po ng money laundering, sir?

**[02:13:14.700] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po. Tama po. Tama po.

**[02:13:16.860] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Gaano po kahirap matuntun ang pinanggalingan ng maruming pera?

**[02:13:22.100] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Mahirap po, Your Honor, kasi we have to establish po yung... Financial trail po, hanapin po namin yung unlawful activity, kung ano po yung illegal na activity po na ginawa, hanapin po namin yung proceeds, hanapin po namin yung saan po trinansak at saan po dinala po, Your Honor.

**[02:13:43.800] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
May

**[02:13:43.980] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
pagkakataon ba attorney na hindi natutuntun o matrace ang source ng pera kapag nalinis na po?

**[02:13:52.460] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Maari po, pero maari pa rin po matuntun, mahirap lang po, pero...

**[02:13:59.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Mandato po namin na gawin po yun, na hanapin po.

**[02:14:01.860] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Dito niyo ba ginagamit ang inyong CIF funds na 9 point something million, napakalait po? Sapat po ba yun para matuntun at habulin po mga drug lord, mga smuggler, etc., etc. sa ating bayan?

**[02:14:17.330] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung totoo po, maliit po yun kumpara dun sa mandato po na nakaatang po sa amin. Iyon po ay personal ko lang po na opinion, Your Honor.

**[02:14:26.970] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Take note, Finance Chair J.B. Hersito.

**[02:14:31.890] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Sir, maaaring ipaliwanag mabilisan lamang ang proseso na dinadaanan ng AMLOC matapos makakuha ng STR?

**[02:14:39.390] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, pag nakakuha po kami ng STR po, tulad po nung nabanggit ko kanina, sobrang dami po kasi may natatanggap, we will prioritize po yung mga STR. So, meron po kami tinitignan ng mga, kumbaga, high risk crimes po na Iwanahin po namin. And then mula po doon i-analyze po namin yung report. And then base po doon sa initial na analysis po, financial intelligence na report po, ibibigay po namin yun doon sa aming investigation po. Yung investigation group naman po, sila na po yung lalabas talaga. Kakausap po ng mga other law enforcement kung may kailangan po kaming information. Kukolekta po, punta po doon sa lugar, sa negosyo po mismo, titignan kung legitimate ba. So sila na po yung bubuo ng kwento. Kung kailangan pa po namin ng information po sa bangko, doon po

**[02:15:29.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
mapafile po kami ng... bank inquiry po. Kung kailangan po namin, kung tingin namin na baka maalerto yung criminal po or yung money launderer po, magpo-file po kami ng freeze order. Kasi po, pag nag-imbestiga kami, siyempre, necessarily po, we have to ask, baka mamaya makarating po sa kanila. So, magpo-file po kami ng freeze order. Pag nabuo na po namin yung kwento, or yung case, kaso po, maari din po na ipa-file po namin yun. So, kung abot na po dun sa beyond reasonable doubt, criminal case, or kung hindi po, civil case lang po.

**[02:16:18.590] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Sir,

**[02:16:19.570] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
marami po kayong pinakita mga dokumento, mga bank accounts ng prosecution.

**[02:16:27.900] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Kahapon at kanina. May nakikita ka bang discrepancy sa mga transactions ng mag-asawang Carpio at Duterte sa kanilang mga bangko since 2007?

**[02:16:39.390] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, what I can only report po is yung pong nasopina po sa amin and yun lang po yung nailagay din po sa record.

**[02:16:47.850] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Kaya nga po may nakikita

**[02:16:49.130] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
po kay discrepancy.

**[02:17:06.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So okay,

**[02:17:12.000] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
bilang abogado po, may conflict of interest ka ba nakikita na ang VP, kumpanya ni VP or corporations, nakikipag-transaction sa isang foreign state owned by a foreign state owner? company like China. Bilang abogado, sir. Do you see any conflict of interest here?

**[02:17:31.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I'm... Hindi ko po masagot, Your Honor.

**[02:17:38.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po masagot on that one, Your Honor.

**[02:17:42.280] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
I understand,

**[02:17:43.320] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
sir. You want to play safe. But anyway, may nakikita ka bang mali sa pagtanggap na remittance ng Cale88? na isa sa mga company po na inuugnay kay VP Sara ng 319 million mula sa China at Hong Kong.

**[02:17:56.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So tulad nga po na sabi ko po kung ano lang po yung nasa records, Your Honor. So kung if and when na kailangan po namin gawin, titignan pa po namin kasi yung ano po ba yung legitimate yung mga transactions po, may documents po diba? So at this point po hindi ko po masasabi your honor based lang po sa record sir.

**[02:18:19.580] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Alright sir. Yung mga bangko I'm sure nire-report po sa inyo yung mga kahina-hinalang mga transaction. Tama po?

**[02:18:24.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yun.

**[02:18:26.120] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Alright.

**[02:18:26.560] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
May ginagawa ba kayong sarili investigation pag inireport na po sa inyo? Itong government official na ito may problema tayo, I'm locked. Can you do something about it? Or hinahayaan nyo lang? Or dahil mataas na official medyo may ikang special privilege?

**[02:18:41.780] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, nagbabase lang po kami sa dokumento po at sa mga report at sa transaction po. So kapag na-report po sa amin, subject lang po doon sa prioritization po namin, na-analyze po namin and then nagpa-file po kami ng kaso. Hindi po namin tinitignan kung... Kung yun ba ay mataas na tao or maliit na tao, basta po nakita po namin na may kaso na maaaring ma-file, nagpa-file po kami.

**[02:19:07.820] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
In

**[02:19:08.120] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
this case po kay VP Sara, wala po kayo nakikita? Mali? At hindi po ninyo inimbestigahan? Ngayon nyo lang lalaman ng pinatawag na po kayo ng

**[02:19:15.860] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
prosecution?

**[02:19:16.680] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I am unable to answer that except that part of the document subpoenaed po and we submitted po ay

**[02:19:25.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
If I read lang po, summary report on VP Duterte po, financial intelligence report on VP Duterte, financial investigation report on Attorney Carpio, and confidential information sharing, Your Honor.

**[02:19:36.640] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Before you came here, did you review those documents that they were asking you? Did you have the opportunity to review and look at it?

**[02:19:44.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor.

**[02:19:45.420] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
And what do you see? What do you see, Attorney, when you saw those documents? You see nothing wrong, sir?

**[02:19:59.560] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I am unable to provide po my own interpretation po on this. But based on the documents po, there are... Ito po ang nalagay po.

**[02:20:11.100] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
That's what I was

**[02:20:11.420] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
asking you.

**[02:20:12.000] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Do you

**[02:20:12.180] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
see any

**[02:20:12.780] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
discrepancies, any problems, Mr. Witness?

**[02:20:17.830] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, all I can say po is there are... intelligence report and investigation report already conducted on as indicated.

**[02:20:27.190] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
So did you

**[02:20:27.630] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
conduct any investigation already?

**[02:20:32.900] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I can only testify that we submitted as part of the subpoena the financial intelligence report and financial investigation report.

**[02:20:41.740] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
No further

**[02:20:42.160] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
questions,

**[02:20:42.860] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Mr. Presiding

**[02:20:43.660] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Officer.

**[02:20:44.100] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Thank

**[02:20:44.340] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
you, Mr. Witness.

**[02:20:45.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank

**[02:20:45.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you, Senator Judge Rubin. Senator Judge Robin Padilla is recognized. You have two minutes so you may proceed when you're ready.

**[02:20:50.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thereafter, we break for lunch.

**[02:20:52.500] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Maraming salamat po. Ginuong hukom.

**[02:20:57.600] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Bismillah. Magandang tanghali po.

**[02:21:00.510] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Magandang tanghali po, Honorable Senator Judge.

**[02:21:02.990] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kayo po'y taga Bulacan?

**[02:21:04.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yun, Your Honor.

**[02:21:05.710] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Saan po

**[02:21:05.930] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
kayo sa Bulacan?

**[02:21:07.290] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa Malolos po, Your Honor.

**[02:21:09.430] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Malolos. Napakagandang lugar po niyan. Diyan po'y unang republika.

**[02:21:13.610] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po, Your Honor.

**[02:21:14.670] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ako po'y tiga Plaridel. Ang tatay ko po ay diyan pinanganak. At ang lolo ko po'y dating gobernador. ng Bulacan, kaya malapit po ako sa mga taga Bulacan. Opo, kayo po ay bar, top notch, tama po ba?

**[02:21:31.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yan.

**[02:21:33.790] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo, pwede po kayong maging teacher ko.

**[02:21:37.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Okay na po kung may

**[02:21:41.180] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
tanong

**[02:21:41.880] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po kayo na masasagot ko po.

**[02:21:43.340] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo, tungkol po dito doon sa Anti-Money Laundering Act. Kasi doon po sa Section 8A. Pwede po bang maipaliwanag niyo sa akin? Kasi dito ang sabi, information, security, and confidentiality. Ano pong pagkakaintindi niyo dito aming kabayan?

**[02:22:04.090] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, I can only state what the law provides po. Yung security, yung mga nabanggit po ninyo. I don't want to add any other words that may be different

**[02:22:18.310] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
from my interpretation,

**[02:22:20.690] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[02:22:21.290] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo, tama po bang sabihin natin na dapat ay may absolute confidentiality ng mga records?

**[02:22:31.460] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung nakalagay po dyan is parang hindi naman po records sa pagkakatanda ko po. Ang nakalagay lang po is mga information received po by the AMLC po.

**[02:22:43.260] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo.

**[02:23:11.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Confidential. Yung pong probable cause po alimbawa po, we need to show to the court po na meron pong probable cause o may probable and reasonable doubt. And we can only do that kung yung information po na nakuha namin ay gagamitin namin ay didisclose namin sa court. So kaya po hindi ko po masabi na absolute po kasi meron nga pong second paragraph that would authorize us to process and submit necessary information po. May

**[02:23:37.270] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
tamang proseso.

**[02:23:38.700] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes po, in accordance din po sa guidelines po namin.

**[02:23:42.100] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Dapat ay yung alinsunod sa batas.

**[02:23:45.240] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Batas at implementing rules in mga guidelines po.

**[02:23:49.020] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Due

**[02:23:49.200] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
process.

**[02:23:50.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yun, Your Honor.

**[02:23:51.400] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo. Sa palagay po ba ninyo, hindi kayo naipit dito? Sa pagpunta po nyo dito?

**[02:23:58.410] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi po, Your Honor, because ako po ay sumunod sa...

**[02:24:26.680] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Sa

**[02:24:27.240] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
experience ko po dito, laging nagbibigay ng suggestion.

**[02:24:33.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
yung mga agency sa amin. Sa palagay niyo po ba may dapat tayong amendahan sa batas ng AMLAC patungkol sa confidentiality?

**[02:24:44.120] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
May sasuggest niyo po ba sa amin na amendahan nito para hindi po kayo parang niluluto dyan sa loob? Katulad kahapon.

**[02:24:53.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ano naman po, ginagawa ko lang po yung trabaho ko, Your Honor. Pero salamat po. Your Honor, nahitay ko na rin po yung opportunity. Meron po kasi yung mga pending AMLA bills po. So, ito po kasi ay requirement po sa international community. Pero to connect lang po dun sa tanong nyo po.

**[02:25:11.200] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Meron po

**[02:25:11.820] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
kaming provision po dun na of course yung confidentiality extend din po dun sa mga tao that we

**[02:25:17.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
are...

**[02:25:17.240] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
So sumasang-ayon po kayo?

**[02:25:19.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Meron po.

**[02:25:20.300] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ako naman po. Ako po

**[02:25:21.740] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
ay hindi abogado, pero ako po ay criminology graduate. Doon naman po ako bumabagsak sa law enforcement. Opo, kasi sa amin, merong apat na bagay. Una, inquiry, investigation, evaluation, then conclusion. Kayo po sa AMLC, nasa na po kayo doon? Nag-inquiry? Parang tapos na po kayo kasi sinasabi nyo kanina.

**[02:25:51.310] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Okay, second round na lang po.

**[02:25:52.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may wind up your question.

**[02:25:55.130] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ah, pwede po. Salamat po.

**[02:25:59.310] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kasi po, narinig ko kanina, nandun na kayo sa investigation. Tama po ba? Natapos po ba yung investigation?

**[02:26:06.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po masagot, Your Honor.

**[02:26:08.580] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
O ano

**[02:26:08.940] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
lang po yung nasa records po, na nasabit po na?

**[02:26:12.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo, kasi na malinaw kanina, parang nasabi niyo po, nasa point pa lang ng investigation. Kasi kanina parang nabasa niyo po doon investigation?

**[02:26:22.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Nung

**[02:26:22.550] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
sinopina po kami yung as of the time of the supina po sa amin ng court, eto po yung mga records na naka-include po in relation po doon sa STRs at CTRs po.

**[02:26:33.910] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
So

**[02:26:33.990] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
investigation po? Wala pa po kayo sa evaluation and conclusion? Kasi parang ang alam ko po sa AMLC, pagka meron na kayong conclusion, pwede nyo nang i-freeze yung assets, di ba po?

**[02:26:46.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po masagot, Your Honor, any other action po na wala po or hindi po namin na-submit or wala po dito. Hindi po po ma-testify po, Your Honor. Hindi

**[02:26:57.490] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
ko

**[02:26:59.610] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po ma-disclose po, Your Honor, hindi po siya kasama dun sa kung ano po yung nandito po. Pero

**[02:27:05.290] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
andyan po, investigation. Nabasa ko kanina, narinig ko, sinabi niyo, investigation eh.

**[02:27:10.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Oo po, yung mga documents po.

**[02:27:11.790] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Nasa pangalawa pa lang, wala pang evaluation, wala pang conclusion.

**[02:27:37.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly clarify, you cannot divulge. Hindi mo pwedeng ilahat.

**[02:27:42.940] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo.

**[02:27:43.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kung meron o wala.

**[02:27:44.600] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo.

**[02:27:44.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kasi hindi yun sa clown ng sinapina.

**[02:27:47.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi po yun sa clown ng supina at meron din po mga rules po na hindi po namin na nagbabawalan po kami i-disclose po. Alimbawa po yung nabanggit ko po kahapon yung bank inquiry rules ng Court of Appeals. Pag po nag-file po kami ng bank inquiry rules, bank inquiry po sa Court of Appeals, may nakalagay po na provision doon na we cannot disclose it. If we disclose it, that would constitute Contempt of Court. So yung may mga ganun po na legal impediment or maharang sa akin legally to disclose po. So we cannot disclose po. Una po, ito lang po yung na-include po sa supina. Then mayroon po mga rules, laws, other rules po that we consider po.

**[02:28:26.740] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ang tanong ko lang po, simple lang kabayan, yung po bang hawak yung papel ay ano po yan ba? Ano po yung nasupina sa inyo?

**[02:28:34.500] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ang sinupina po sa amin, Your Honor,

**[02:28:40.510] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kanina may nabasa po kayo parang investigation yung sinagit niyo kay Senator Erwin Tulfo?

**[02:28:46.930] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your

**[02:28:47.870] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Honor. What we submitted po are...

**[02:28:53.100] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Covered transaction reports, suspicious transaction reports on VP Duterte at Atty. Carpio, summary report on VP Duterte with a barcode, financial intelligence report on VP Duterte

**[02:29:04.260] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
with

**[02:29:04.560] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
AMLC reference, financial investigation report at Atty. Carpio, and confidential information sharing, Your Honor.

**[02:29:10.000] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Okay po. Hanggang doon na lang po yung sinasabi niyo. Bali, ang tanong ko lang po kasi, sumusunod po ba kayo doon sa apat?

**[02:29:19.070] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Inquiry? Investigation? Evaluation and conclusion. Yun lang naman po. Wala naman po kung ibang tinatanong. Kung sumusunod po, hindi po... Kasi lahat po, lahat ng klase ng law enforcement, sa buong mundo, yun po ang dinadaana. Inquiry, investigation, conclusion, evaluation and conclusion. Yun lang naman po.

**[02:29:43.260] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Proceso po kami, maari pong kahawig po nun pero hindi ko po alam exactly kung ano po yun.

**[02:29:48.260] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Okay na po, kahawig na po yun.

**[02:29:50.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Maari pong kahawig nung ano po.

**[02:29:52.340] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Sa ano na lang po, ito parang manifestation na lang po itong akin na ginoon po po.

**[02:30:00.700] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo, sana po maasabi lang po dun sa ating mga kasama na tutal hindi naman po nabanggit dito yung tungkol sa tapang at malasakit. Hinihingi ko po na huwag naman po kaming madamay lahat kasi kasama kami dyan eh. Hindi naman po yan nabanggit dito sa Korte, binanggit po yan ni former Senator Trillanes sa hindi sa Korting ito. So, hinihingi ko lang po sa mga kasama ko na pagka generalize po natin yan na tapang at malasakit, kasama po kami dyan. Wala po ako natanggap na pera kahit nasihin ko sa mga in-check. Yun lamang po. Maraming salamat po.

**[02:30:59.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Chair declares our lunch recess.

**[03:38:23.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Ronel, naunawaan po ninyo na patuloy kayo magbibigyan ng inyong testimonya base sa naunan niyo pong pinanumpaan kahapon.

**[03:38:31.350] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Naunawaan po, Your Honor.

**[03:38:32.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kunti na lang

**[03:38:33.030] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
ito tulad ng sinabi ko kanina, Atty. Ronel. We are on the second round of interjections by Senator Judges. While we are awaiting, apologies, I'm sound present. While we are waiting, Senator Pia Cayetano, if she will avail of the second round, Chair would like to recognize Senator Judge Sotto.

**[03:38:57.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You

**[03:38:58.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
may proceed, sir, when you're ready. You have two minutes.

**[03:39:08.530] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, but I will probably no longer avail of the second round. Some of the questions that I wanted to ask were asked by my colleagues earlier. Perhaps just a...

**[03:39:25.710] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Sabihin hindi ako. Baka sabihin hindi ako impartial.

**[03:39:32.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator Judge Sotto. Or I don't know if I should say thank you.

**[03:39:37.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thanks from Attorney Ronel. It shortens his time on the witness stand. Senator Judge Hontiveros is next.

**[03:39:45.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, ma'am, when you're ready.

**[03:39:50.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Oh nga pala, Ronel, kumain ka na. Kumain ka.

**[03:39:52.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi uli. Kumagat lang pong SkyFlakes.

**[03:39:56.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay.

**[03:39:57.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Basta nagagahan ka kanina. Senator Judge Risa, you may proceed when you're ready.

**[03:40:02.760] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[03:40:05.910] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Atty. Buenaventura.

**[03:40:08.650] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes

**[03:40:09.190] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po, Your Honor, Senator Judge.

**[03:40:10.970] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Magandang hapon po.

**[03:40:11.950] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Magandang hapon po.

**[03:40:13.170] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Tama po ba na yung essence nga ng money laundering ay precisely gusto pong itago ang pinanggalingan ng maruming pera?

**[03:40:25.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po, Your Honor.

**[03:40:27.030] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Kaya po tawag po natin dun ay paglalaba.

**[03:40:30.300] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
In Tagalog po, sa pagkaintindi ko po, your honor.

**[03:40:37.440] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So

**[03:40:38.760] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
yung 319 million pesos na remittances mula sa China ay yung lamang pong inireport sa AMLC. Ibig sabihin, pwede bang mas malaki pa ang pinadalang pera mula sa China sa mga kumpanya? Tama po ba yun?

**[03:41:00.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, hindi ko po masabi pero ang nakita lang po namin ay kung ano lang po nasa records, Your Honor.

**[03:41:10.210] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Kung ano yung nasa records dahil yun ang mga iniulat sa inyo bilang either suspicious or covered transaction records.

**[03:41:16.210] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung meron pa man po na wala doon, hindi po namin makikita po yun, Your Honor.

**[03:41:20.890] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Okay. Tapos, well, ito pong 319 million pesos mula sa China. Doon sa ang AMLC reports, hindi po naman yun yung paulit-ulit na pag-rollover ng time deposits, di po ba?

**[03:41:37.300] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung nasa table 5 po namin, hindi po siya time deposit po, Your Honor. Ito po ay base po doon sa letter ng prosecution asking for the inward remittances po. So, nung hinahanap, nung ginawa po namin yung tabular summary po, Tinignan po namin kung anong code yung pertaining to inward remittances. At yung po yung ginamit po namin dito, Your Honor. So hindi po siya at unique transaction po siya. So magkakaiba po ito. Hindi po siya yung rollover po.

**[03:42:11.920] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So magkakaiba po. Unique at hindi pare-pareho yung sinasabing rollover ng time deposits at yung namang masasabing remittances.

**[03:42:20.020] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As far as in our records. As we understood it, Your Honor, yes po. As

**[03:42:25.480] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
you understand your records.

**[03:42:26.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Opo.

**[03:42:27.220] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Eh yung, yung milyones po na di umano'y galing kay Samuel Uy, hindi rin naman po yun rollover ng mga time deposits, tama po ba?

**[03:42:38.460] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, apologies po, I can't specifically recall po yun.

**[03:42:44.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
On that one po, Your Honor.

**[03:42:48.240] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Alright.

**[03:42:50.610] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Then, Nabanggit din po na may ilang suspicious transaction reports na di umano may connection sa drug trafficking. Ayon sa reports nyo, sino-sino pong mga tao di umano ang involved sa mga reported transactions na yon?

**[03:43:09.650] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, apologies po, hindi ko po maalala unless I'll be confronted with the record. Apologies po.

**[03:43:15.750] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Alright. So, hindi nyo rin po masasagot kung itanong ko na Magkano, di umano, ang transactions na may reports na related sa illegal drugs?

**[03:43:27.560] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala lang po ako, wala po sa akin yung record, Your Honor. Hindi ko po masagot on the spot, Your Honor.

**[03:43:32.160] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Alright, pero kung mapasakamay ninyo yung records, masasagot po nyo dito?

**[03:43:37.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ay, kung

**[03:43:37.460] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
hanapin lang po at maituro po, mababanggit ko po. Ah,

**[03:43:41.380] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
kaya nyo po bang hanapin during this trial day?

**[03:43:46.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung yun po yung mga pinabasa po na hindi ko po maalala ko ng defense or ng prosecution po at maituturo lang po ulit yun base po dun sa kung anong pinabasa ko. Kung ma

**[03:43:55.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
-pinpoint naman po, masasabi ko naman po. Based on records lang din po.

**[03:44:02.170] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Salamat, Atty. Buenaventura. Siguro, Mr. President, bago matapos itong trial day, baka pwede pong ipakita ulit sa witness yung record na yon para lang ma-on the record magkano di umano yung transactions na may reports kaugnay ng illegal drugs. Ulitin ko na lang po bago ako matapos, Atty. Buenaventura. So, ano pong mga aksyon kung mayroon na ang ginawa ng AMLC tungkol sa mga reports na yon?

**[03:44:30.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, hindi ko po maalala kung ano pong reports po lahat yun. Pero ang meron po kami at yun lang pong nasako po nung supina po natin na sinabit po, yung po mga financial intelligence report at financial investigation report po that we submitted po, Your Honor.

**[03:44:45.460] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Alright. And hindi nyo lang makonfirm sa amin kung itong mga reports ay bunga ng mga investigasyon ng council.

**[03:44:52.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po ma-divulge po o bunyag po, Your Honor.

**[03:44:55.840] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Alright. May nabanggit din pong suspicious transaction reports na posibleng related sa graft and corruption. Magkano naman po di umano yung iyon?

**[03:45:06.510] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa parehong kadahilanan po, Your Honor, unless makonfront po ulit ako nung document po so that I can answer that po, Your Honor. Pasensya na po.

**[03:45:15.970] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
It's alright po. Tulad nung halaga di umano ng reports related sa illegal drugs. Apo. Okay po. And then...

**[03:45:24.940] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Siguro huling tanong na sa ngayon. Yung halaga po pinagsama ng covered transaction reports at saka yung suspicious transaction reports kina VP Duterte at Atty. Carpio. Yun lamang po yung mga diumanong kaduda-duda o sakop sa cloud na ni-report sa AMLC. Hindi po yung kompletong record ng kanilang buong financial activity, inflows and outflows. Tama po ba?

**[03:45:55.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, yung po na-report sa amin, yung covert transaction at saspecious transaction po. Kung meron nun po na hindi pa pasok doon sa dalawang uri ng transaction po, hindi po yun maire-report sa amin po.

**[03:46:06.450] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Right. And then, approaching that question from another angle, just winding up, Mr. Presiding Officer, kung meron namang pong gustong umiwas sa AMLC o sa pansin ng AMLC, pwede pong ibabasa 500,000 pesos ang halaga ng transaction, di po ba? Para hindi nga po mapansin ng AMLC.

**[03:46:30.490] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Para hindi po ma-report?

**[03:46:31.890] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Para hindi ma

**[03:46:32.490] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
-report ng covered transactions.

**[03:46:33.550] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yun, Your Honor. Kasi po hindi po siya sasaklaw dun sa covered transaction report. Kaya lang po, meron din po isang circumstance po sa suspicious transaction report na kapag na based po dun sa over... circumstances po, it appears na the client is trying to structure his transaction so as not to be reported, subject of the reporting under the law, matitreat naman po siya. Hindi po as covered transaction, kundi po suspicious po. So pero, yun nga po, subject din po yung sa checking din po ng covered person po. So makikita pa rin po, nare-report naman din po yun.

**[03:47:13.030] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Okay. So kahit pa po maiwas sa pansin ng AMLC or ng covered person bilang covered transaction report. Kung may mapansin pong circumstance na parang sinusubukang i-structure yung transactions, pwede pa rin pong masakop ng isang suspicious transaction report. Alright. Marami salamat po muli, Atty. Buenaventura. Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[03:47:39.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank

**[03:47:39.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you, Sen. Judge Rison Tivero. Sen. Judge Raffy Tulfo is recognized. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready.

**[03:47:51.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Raffy, we shall have Senator Judge Lacson, thereafter Pangilinan, thereafter Villanueva, thereafter the Senate President, then finally Senator Judge Padilla.

**[03:48:16.450] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay, ulitin ko yung tanong kanina. Hindi masyadong naging klaro sa akin at maybe sa inyo. Kailan kayo gumagawa ng investigasyon once na nalaman nyo na yung isang account ay may suspicious transaction?

**[03:48:31.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ano naman po yun, Your Honor? So, pag na-report po sa amin, meron lang po kaming prioritization po, given nga po na maliit lang po yung ahensya at yung resources po. So, namimili po kami base po dun sa mga kung ano po yung ipaprioritize na investigahan po.

**[03:48:47.230] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Hindi mention maliliit. Paano kung malalaki?

**[03:48:51.660] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
accounts at malalaki ang transaksyon na perang lamabas-pasok. So, what do you do?

**[03:48:56.880] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasama pa rin po yun sa prioritization po. Hindi naman po porket maliit or malaki yung pera. Yun lang po yung basihan namin. So, halimbawa po, if the crime po ay halimbawa ay terrorism financing, so, mas priority po namin yung kahit po mas maliit ng content dahil may national security concern po.

**[03:49:14.060] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Kaya nga, what do you do? What kind of investigation do you conduct?

**[03:49:17.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
After po noon, so, we analyze po the transactions po. and then at least dun sa initial transaction na analysis po kung meron po kaming makita na medyo that parang kailangan investigahan pa po ng mas detalyado i-endorse na po namin yun. sa kabilang grupo na mag-i-investigate na po talaga.

**[03:49:38.040] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
At ano yung kabilang grupo?

**[03:49:39.500] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa internal unit lang po yun sa AMLC.

**[03:49:42.140] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Kaya nga, and then anong

**[03:49:42.940] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
ginagawa ng internal unit?

**[03:49:44.020] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung unit po na yun, sila po yung nag-conduct po ng full-blown investigation na po. Sila po yung kung kailangan po nilang kumuha pa ng mga detalye sa halimbawa po sa SEC, ng mga corporation. ng mga stockholders po kung kailangan po kumuha ng may ari-arian ba to sa land registration authority. Kung kailangan po mag-coordinate sa law enforcement kasi po kung nakita po na may predicate yung unlawful activity po ay halimbawa po kidnapping for ransom so we coordinate po with PNP po. So kasama na po yun doon. Bubuhin na po yung kaso po.

**[03:50:18.820] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay,

**[03:50:19.260] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
pag nagawa yun lahat na na nabanggit mo, anong sunod na course of action?

**[03:50:22.900] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ang gagawin po namin pag nagawa na po yun lahat, Kung kulang pa rin po at kailangan pong pa-open yung particular na banko po.

**[03:50:31.200] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Kung hindi na kulang, nagawa

**[03:50:32.240] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
na po lahat.

**[03:50:33.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Magpo-file na po kami ng tatlong senaryo po. Una... Pari pong depende po sa ebidensya at sapat na po para merong proof beyond reasonable doubt na tingin namin, pa-file po ng criminal na kaso po. Yung pangalawa po is kung hindi po sapat yun pero pasok po doon sa preponderance of evidence na tingin namin kasampas sa court, yung kaso lang po ay civil, po-forfeit lang po yung proceeds. Yung pangatlo po is... Kung base po doon sa nakalap na ebidensya, wala po talagang kulang po.

**[03:51:08.370] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Hindi, pag may nakalap na ebidensya.

**[03:51:09.890] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ah, pag meron lang po.

**[03:51:10.550] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Yun dalawa lang po.

**[03:51:11.330] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yun dalawa po.

**[03:51:12.030] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Hindi

**[03:51:12.350] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
niyo, hindi kayo puputusin para mag-file ng freeze order?

**[03:51:15.810] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ay, part po yun ng investigation.

**[03:51:17.970] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay,

**[03:51:18.310] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
sa kaso dito sa... Mga accounts ni VP Sara at sa mga kumpanya kung saan nagmamayari itong si Atty. Hans Carpio. And paulit-ulit na nangyayari itong STR. At I'm sure nag-investigate kayo. So wala man lang naging nagbunga sa ginawa niyo mga pag-imbestiga? Or you just sat down there at dahil natakot kayo sapagkat nasa pwesto yung mga taong yun at that time? Kung ordinary na tao pa siguro baka ipit na yan left and right.

**[03:51:42.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, Your Honor, yung mababangit ko lang po is yung pong naging saklaw po nung supina po, meron po kaming mga sinabit ng mga report po on this one po. Kung ano man po yung iba pa pong aksyon, hindi ko na po ma-divulge po or masabi po sa kadahilanan nga po na if meron man po, may mga other...

**[03:52:02.290] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
No, why

**[03:52:02.790] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
can you not? Samantal pag sa ordinary mga depositor, may mga... Orin na rin ang tao na may bank account na meron kayo suspicious sa transaction na nakita. E pinapadali nyo natin ng sulat and there are times na pinupunta nyo pa. I don't know. Tell me. Pero pag dito mukhang wala kayong ginagawa. Puro at saka very evasive ka sa mga sagot. Policy lang itong tinatanong ko, Mr. Witness. Walang tinatanong tungkol sa talagang anong nangyari sa ginawa niya.

**[03:52:29.270] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
In policy lang, yun nga po Your Honor, yung pong may mga halimbawa po nag-file po kami sa Court of Appeals for bank inquiry po, may nakalagay po kasi sa rules nila.

**[03:52:39.410] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
So, ginawa nyo ba ito?

**[03:52:42.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasama po doon na

**[03:52:43.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
we

**[03:52:43.290] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
cannot disclose anything po halimbawa po kung nag-file man po kami or hindi po. Otherwise, constitutes contempt of court po kasi yun, Your Honor.

**[03:52:50.330] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay, so hindi mo masasabi pwede nag-file ka o hindi?

**[03:52:52.490] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi

**[03:52:52.750] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
ko po ma-evolgar po kung meron man po or masabi po. Tama po yun, Your Honor.

**[03:52:57.030] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Pero, Alam naman natin lahat na napakarami ng STR o marami naka-invest na naka-plug down itong account nito for several years. So hindi ko pa rin masabi kung meron ba kayong pinahal o wala. Tama? Mali?

**[03:53:06.570] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi

**[03:53:06.710] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
ko lang po masabi. May divulge po, Your Honor.

**[03:53:10.550] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Meron bang ginawang paliwanag ng Cale88 tungkol sa mga STR sa mga accounts nila?

**[03:53:21.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sal... Your Honor, pag po... Yung covered person po, pag nagre-report po nung transaction, hindi naman po nila ini-inform yung, bawal po nilang inform actually po yung client nila na ni-reportan sila ng covered or suspicious transaction.

**[03:53:40.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kapag po finailan po ng or papailan po ng STR po or CTR yung client po ng isang covered person, nasa batas po ng AMLA na bawal po silang i-inform or na o ipapailan namin kayo kasi kumbaga tawag po doon tipping off, bawal po silang matip off na papailan na kayo na or finailan sila ng STR or CTR.

**[03:54:04.140] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Pero meron ba insidente na pinapatay nyo ng sulat ang isang accounts o account holder na may mga

**[03:54:12.220] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Transaction suspicious?

**[03:54:14.540] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Your contact?

**[03:54:15.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa AMLC po. Sa amin po, hindi na po. Kung meron po kami, sa procedure lang po ito, Your Honor. Sa amin po, kung meron man po na mapapadala kami, hindi na po sa amin. Ibig sabihin po, court na po yun. Kung baga nag-file na po kami, may makareceive na po sila ng court order or kung ano man po.

**[03:54:35.360] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay, Mr. Witness, base sa summary na ibinigay ng AMLC, nasa 1.254 billion ano ang kabuhang transaction involving Cale88, tama?

**[03:54:45.870] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Check-in lang po, Your Honor. Apologies.

**[03:54:49.660] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
1.254736297.08, Your Honor.

**[03:54:54.420] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Billion.

**[03:54:55.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Billion, yes.

**[03:54:56.060] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay, out of this 1.2 billion, 776.6 million yung kabuhang halaga na pumasok sa Cale88, tama?

**[03:55:06.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung inflow po,

**[03:55:07.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
yes po, 776,643,950.36, your honor.

**[03:55:11.500] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Correct. So, kung iba bang ito sa mga submitted audited financial statements ng Cale88 kung saan diniklala itong lugi daw ito mula 2022 haga 2024, right?

**[03:55:26.310] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala po akong personal

**[03:55:27.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
knowledge.

**[03:55:27.970] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Sige.

**[03:55:28.430] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
At

**[03:55:28.990] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
in fact, itong 2025 lamang, ito ay

**[03:55:31.350] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
kumita raw ng halagang 375,398 lamang. So maybe you don't have that record.

**[03:55:37.850] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala po.

**[03:55:38.730] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Now, mukhang napakalaki ng disparity ng pumasok na pera sa kumpanya tsaka sa kubuhang kinita nito kada taon. So hindi nagkakabanggaan.

**[03:55:50.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Again, wala po akong personal manager.

**[03:55:53.510] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay, ang tanong ko na, last na lang, Mr. Presiding Officer. Yung bell, medyo...

**[03:55:56.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may continue

**[03:55:58.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
and wind up, Senator Judge Raffy.

**[03:56:00.150] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Yes, sir. So, kinukonsidera din ba ng AMLA ang mga financial statements ng mga kumpanya sa inyong mga pag-imbestiga?

**[03:56:07.090] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As long as we're able to get po and available po, yes po.

**[03:56:10.990] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Thank you, Mr. Witness. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[03:56:14.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank

**[03:56:14.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you, Senator Judge Raffy. Senator Judge Lacson, you may proceed, sir. You have two minutes when you're ready.

**[03:56:20.100] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Thank

**[03:56:20.540] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
you,

**[03:56:20.720] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Mr.

**[03:56:21.380] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Specialling Officer. Good afternoon again, Atty. Ronel.

**[03:56:26.120] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Good afternoon, honorable Senator.

**[03:56:28.160] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Irarapido ko na para pumasok sa 2 minutes. Pakite-take notes lang yung mga tanong ko. Tatlo lang.

**[03:56:32.520] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Okay po, your

**[03:56:33.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
honor.

**[03:56:33.400] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Una, ano yung trigger mechanism sa AMLC para mag-file ng ex-parte petisyon sa Court of Appeals para sa pre-order?

**[03:56:44.330] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Probable cause po, your honor.

**[03:56:47.040] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Probable cause or docket ng predicate crime?

**[03:56:53.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasama na din po yun, Your Honor.

**[03:56:55.200] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Not probable cause, but pag-docketed, pwede na yan.

**[03:57:02.120] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Anyway, sunod na tanong. Baka abutin tayong two minutes. Kindly enlighten us [unclear] yung court sa difference between express or explicit authority at saka yung implied authority. Follow-up doon.

**[03:57:16.550] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Ano yung legal effect ng implied authority? Kasi bigat din ba ng express authority yun? Related yun sa tanong ni Atty. Mark kahapon. Tatandaan mo?

**[03:57:27.440] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Patungkol saan po?

**[03:57:28.680] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Yung express authority against implied authority.

**[03:57:33.560] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Anyway, mamiya ulit. Ito yung pangatlo.

**[03:57:36.520] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Did

**[03:57:37.400] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
I hear you right na on the basis of an adverse news report? Pwede na kayong nag-deklara na suspicious yung transaction.

**[03:57:49.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi po kami, your honor, yung nagde-declare po kung suspicious yung covered person po. But the covered person pa rin po, hindi lang naman po sa adverse news, they have to check din po yung mismo KYC, yung account po mismo, monitoring yung transaction nila. So based po dun sa mga internal na pag-check po, they have to consider all other matters po. Kasama na rin po yung sa adverse news po.

**[03:58:15.230] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
So yung comment na binabasa nyo kahapon na News reports, hindi sa inyo galing yun?

**[03:58:20.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi po sa amin galing.

**[03:58:21.380] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
As a covered person?

**[03:58:22.300] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Covered person po yun, Your Honor.

**[03:58:23.560] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Okay. So yung sunod, yung, anyway, yung trigger, ang pag-alam nyo, probable cause. Ang sinabi kasi ng inyong predecessor sa amin, basta madakit lang. Alam mo, may nag-file ng complaint, pwede na kayo mag-ex-party. So which is which?

**[03:58:40.430] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, sa under the law po, pag... As far as I recall po, subject po dun sa kung ano yung nasa actual na batas po. If we'll be filing...

**[03:58:51.850] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
bank inquiry or freeze order po, there must be probable cause that the accounts are in any way related to money laundering. So yung probable cause po, such facts and circumstances that would warrant a reasonably prudent man to show that there is indeed money laundering, that the accounts are related to money laundering. So kasama po doon sa

**[03:59:12.410] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
pag-determine po nung

**[03:59:15.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Facts and Circumstances na maaaring related to money laundering ay kung may na-file ba na kaso, yung transactions niya, pati yung profile po niya. So, yun po yung kumbaga kaya po nag-iimbestiga po. And then, pag nabuo po yun, kasama po kung siyempre kailangan po namin ng crime po, ang unlawful activity, kasi the definition po mismo is it should come from unlawful activity.

**[03:59:40.490] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Correct.

**[03:59:41.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kaya kailangan po namin ng may unlawful activity. So baka hindi ko po masagot kung ano po yung nasabi ng mga nauna po sa akin.

**[03:59:48.560] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Attorney,

**[03:59:48.960] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
so now I'm confused kasi galing kay Executive Director Matthew yung pinangagalingan ko. Kasi tinanong ko when we were investigating yung flood control, tinanong ko sa kanya yan, what would...

**[04:00:16.220] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
We ask law enforcement to immediately file kung kaya na mag-file kasi yun ang mag-trigger kagad ng ex-party petition. Now, what you're saying is kailangan mag-establish pa ng probable cause. Ang alam ko sa probable cause, at least yung dating practice, ito yung threshold ng DOJ eh, ng prosecution eh, para mag-file information. But now, tinas yung threshold, di ba? Reasonable certainty of conviction na.

**[04:00:44.690] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
For criminal cases po.

**[04:00:46.230] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Yeah, I know.

**[04:00:46.770] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Pero for freeze order lang po at bank inquiry po, probable cause po ay nasa batas pa rin po.

**[04:00:51.810] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Pero kailangan may unlawful activity na papile.

**[04:00:55.820] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
You cannot file money laundering offense without any unlawful activity. Na-discuss na natin yan eh.

**[04:01:01.680] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Opo. Okay. Your Honor, to clarify lang po. So baka lang po iba yung pag... Hindi ko po kasi masagot kung ano po yung nabanggit po nung predecessor ko po. I also respect Executive Director Batu, my former boss po. So yung sa akin lang po na pagkakaintindi ko po ay... Kailangan lang po, yung probable cause po, syempre kasama po doon na may unlawful activity. Sa batas naman po at sa mga IRR, pati sabi rin po ng Supreme Court, yung pong unlawful activity can run parallel po doon sa money laundering. Pwede pong mauna, pwede pong mag-run parallel po. So, maaari po na sabay po namin nag-iimbestiga nung law enforcement po. Nag-file, mauna lang kami ng file pero nag-file din sila. So, pwede rin po na ganun. Basta po, yung ebidensya po sa mata po ng isang reasonable na tao po or ati sa court po, mabuo na kahit wala pa pong na-file na sakto na kaso pero nakita na yung ebidensya mo kompleto na talaga lahat, ipa-file na lang din. Pero maaari din po kaming mauna kasi allowed naman po na mag-parallel po, Your Honor.

**[04:02:17.840] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
With all due respect, thank you for the confusion.

**[04:02:21.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies po, your honor. Apologies po. Apologies po. If I may po, I...

**[04:02:25.180] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Doon na lang tayo sa express versus implied. Kasi ang binigay sa inyo, sa understanding ko, sa sagot nyo kahapon, meron kayo implied authority kasi covered kayo ng issuance ng council, diba?

**[04:02:39.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, your honor. Ah, yung sa authority po to testify po. Ang

**[04:02:42.520] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
hawak

**[04:02:42.920] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
nyo,

**[04:02:43.160] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
implied, diba?

**[04:02:45.020] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Express authority po.

**[04:02:46.920] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Ang express

**[04:02:47.800] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
is clear. Saka direct. Diba? Yung tinatanong na ito ni Mark eh. Ikaw ba pagpunta mo rito meron kang binigay na authority. Parang case to case.

**[04:02:57.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Okay.

**[04:02:58.140] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Ang hawak mo sa ginagawa mo implied authority kasi inferred na yun eh.

**[04:03:05.410] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Thank you again for the confusion. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[04:03:09.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies po.

**[04:03:11.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
It's okay, Attorney Ronel. You're entitled to a different opinion. Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes.

**[04:03:24.390] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Thank you.

**[04:03:35.150] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
You wanted to avoid or you made double counting? You said that if you recall.

**[04:03:41.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Totoo po, yes po your honor.

**[04:03:43.220] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So ano ibig sabihin nung avoiding double counting?

**[04:03:47.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your honor, so nung hinanda po namin yung tabular summary po, meron po kasing mga entries po na na-report, CTR and STR po na Pareho pong na-report. Halimbawa po, halimbawa lang po ito yung nandun po sa Annex A po. Yung may entry po na pertaining po parehas kay VP at saka kay Atty. Manassas Carpio. Tapos may amount po parehas. So kumbaga po, yung isang transaction po na-report sa amin, dalawang beses nung covered person, hindi dahil

**[04:04:25.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Magkaiba ng transaction kundi magkaiba po kasi yung nire-report po nila. So yung isa po halimbawa si Vice President po, yung isa po si Atty. Carpio. Pero ninote po namin dito sa record namin na hindi po namin yung binilang for purposes po kung ano yung total. So meron pong entry halimbawa po sa Annex A na less entries appearing in both extracts. Tapos meron po kaming note po doon na

**[04:04:50.240] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasi ano po yung report? Jointly held accounts. So, nung prepare po namin yung report, in-ensure po namin na to be as factually and accurately as possible, iniwasan po namin na may double counting. At kung may dalawang report man, we indicate it po para po guided po yung Honorable Court po.

**[04:05:09.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So, doon sa guidance for the Honorable Court na in-indicate ninyo na may double entry or may...

**[04:05:16.920] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Double reports po.

**[04:05:20.080] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Magkano yun? Would you have it?

**[04:05:22.260] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Main naka-indicate po dito yun, at least sa Annex A na table, the amount po is 81 million.

**[04:05:30.280] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So okay, did

**[04:05:31.320] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
you reconcile yung mga sinasabi niyong may double entry dun sa total?

**[04:05:35.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ah yes po, naka ano po yan.

**[04:05:37.820] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So ang sinasabi ninyo ay dahil tiniyak niyong macheck yung mga double entry, most likely, doon sa final summing up ninyo, wala nang double entry?

**[04:05:50.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala na po, wala na po, Your Honor.

**[04:05:51.420] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
At yung figure na yun is inflow as well as outflow?

**[04:05:57.560] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes,

**[04:05:58.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[04:05:58.600] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay, so yung sinasabi kasing dahil double entry, lo lobo.

**[04:06:05.480] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So, lumobo ba?

**[04:06:08.860] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
O binawasin ninyo yung double entry?

**[04:06:11.520] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ang

**[04:06:12.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
samin po, Your Honor, basta po nai-report po sa amin na suspicious or covered transaction, nire-record po namin yun. Kung ano man po yung underlying po niya na bakit nag-transact or ni-roll over, ito ay roll over lang nito, unless po kita dun sa...

**[04:06:30.700] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay, okay.

**[04:06:31.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi po namin masagot.

**[04:06:32.260] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Understood. Ang nangyari po, yung...

**[04:06:51.650] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Dito

**[04:06:52.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
sa usapin ng CTRs involving insurance policy investment related transaction, meron kayong listahan dito. Time deposit.

**[04:07:05.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
129 CTRs. That does not mean 129 deposits. Anong ibig sabihin nun?

**[04:07:14.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung na-report po namin na to kung ano lang po yung lumabas po doon sa records po namin, Your Honor.

**[04:07:22.340] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes, go ahead.

**[04:07:24.520] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ito po, hindi ko po masasabi kung ito po ay rollover or hindi. Depende po yun doon sa pagkakareport. Sa panagbasihan po namin nito, separate po yung transaction reference number, unique number po yun. So, we just indicated po kung ano po yung nakalagay doon sa report.

**[04:07:39.700] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
And

**[04:07:40.180] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
this is from what period? Kasi hindi yata nakalagay. 2007 to 2025?

**[04:07:45.520] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:07:46.200] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay. Kasi ang total ng time deposits, at least yung aggregate amount, hindi mo alam kung nag-rollover o hindi. Just so that we're guided sa mga bank annulator, 529 million. Tama?

**[04:08:01.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yan.

**[04:08:02.180] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay. At yung securities and bonds, ano yung securities and bonds? Para lang sa kaalaman nung...

**[04:08:10.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ito po yung mga sa pagbumibili po ng...

**[04:08:16.440] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Money market?

**[04:08:20.060] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Opo, yung mga ganun po.

**[04:08:21.220] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yung mga securities, T-bills, ganun?

**[04:08:26.660] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Maaari po. Pero

**[04:08:28.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
hindi po namin alam kung ano ang underlying.

**[04:08:30.540] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
As a general definition, this is 94,261,000. Tama?

**[04:08:38.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, sir. 261,275.70 euro.

**[04:08:41.620] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay. And then yung insurance policies, 50, ang total niya,

**[04:08:49.680] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
65,322,000.

**[04:08:51.500] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Tama?

**[04:08:52.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
688.10, yes.

**[04:08:53.440] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
And

**[04:08:53.800] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
then finally, itong trust and agency investment. Yan, ano yan?

**[04:09:04.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ito po kasi yung code na lumabas lang po sa amin. Hindi ko lang po ano po exactly yung nandito po. Pero ito yung code.

**[04:09:13.110] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
UITF plus an agency. Kasi ito 60,492,000.

**[04:09:18.230] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
278

**[04:09:18.870] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
.57 euro.

**[04:09:20.050] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
492,000. Okay. Last question.

**[04:09:23.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may wind up,

**[04:09:25.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator

**[04:09:25.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Judge Kiko.

**[04:09:26.890] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes.

**[04:09:30.310] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Nasaan ba yung huli kong tanong? Ah, ito. Hindi ko maintindihan itong 1,197 suspicious transactions sa

**[04:09:44.970] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
88, 888 Bistro, 1

**[04:09:49.810] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
,100, ano ba to?

**[04:09:51.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Table 4 po, tama po, Your Honor. 1,197 STRs po.

**[04:09:57.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Suspicious.

**[04:09:58.510] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Suspicious transaction reports po, Your Honor.

**[04:10:00.510] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
For an aggregate amount of 42,960,000.

**[04:10:04.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
69

**[04:10:05.010] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
,801.81 po, Your Honor.

**[04:10:07.490] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Bakit ang dami?

**[04:10:13.890] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yun po your honor, hindi ko po kailangan po makita yung records your honor to determine kung ano po yung reason na inindicate nila for each one po. Hindi po namin yun naisama dito sa summary.

**[04:10:25.370] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Sa kumpanya ito

**[04:10:26.090] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
eh no? At ang mga nagre-record nito yung bank accounts ng kumpanya, tama?

**[04:10:30.450] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Covered persons po, hindi ko po alam exactly kung sino-sino lahat po yung nag-report po sa kanila.

**[04:10:35.230] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay, so yun lang ang ano no? There are 1,197 suspicions sa 8888 bistro.

**[04:10:46.610] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes,

**[04:10:48.950] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
okay. I have no other questions at this time. Thank you, Mr. President.

**[04:10:53.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank

**[04:10:54.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you. Thank you,

**[04:10:54.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator

**[04:10:55.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Judge Pangilinan. Senator Judge Villanueva is recognized. You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready.

**[04:11:02.570] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Thank you, Mr. President. Kabayan, di ka pa rin kumakain?

**[04:11:06.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
After na lang po nito, Your Honor. Salamat po.

**[04:11:10.070] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Ano na agad yung time ko? Pinanong ko lang kung kumain.

**[04:11:12.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi

**[04:11:12.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po, Your Honor,

**[04:11:12.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
hindi po.

**[04:11:13.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Hindi kayo, hindi kayo. Sila lang. Baka siya magalit si Mayor Christian pag di ka pinakain.

**[04:11:22.420] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Clarification, kanina dun sa cross-examination, binanggit yung whether or not sinama or hindi yung binanggit, I think, if I'm not mistaken, yung BPI na 2 billion. Hindi po sinama, diba?

**[04:11:36.110] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi na po sinama. Hindi na po sinama.

**[04:11:37.930] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
So ibig sabihin kung sinama yun, umabot pa ng 6 billion yung aggregate.

**[04:11:43.470] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po makompute po pero plus yun po.

**[04:11:46.190] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Kasi 4.4 billion. So

**[04:11:47.970] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
6 billion. So kaya hindi nakasama. Okay. Thank you for that. Now, dito po sa tabular report and this is during the time when the vice presidents already elected 22 to 25.

**[04:12:05.950] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Yung reported, approximately 424 million and about 178 million is classified as undetermined. Nakita niyo po yan?

**[04:12:15.390] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo, tama po.

**[04:12:20.460] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Hindi masabi kung inflow o outflow and that is a substantial portion of the total. Hindi ko ba? Out of 424, 178 yung hindi makita. Ano po exactly yung ibig sabihin ng undetermined? Inamblas Records. Ah,

**[04:12:37.020] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
okay po, your honor.

**[04:12:38.240] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Si Senlito yung telepono na yun. Ah, okay po. Baka lang importante. Sigurado.

**[04:12:45.680] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, your honor to clarify lang po sa AMLC records po, we don't have an indication po sa record kung inflow or outflow po siya.

**[04:12:57.720] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
And what

**[04:12:58.120] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
prevents AMLC from identifying the direction of those transactions?

**[04:13:05.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Mas refined po kasi yung codes na ginagamit namin. Transaction code. Hindi lang po inflow or outflow. Instead na inflow lang po siya, may code na po kami na remittance ba yan, check deposit ba yan, cash deposit ba yan. So mas detalyado po. Pag nag-a-analyze po kami, mas madali po namin ma-analyze kung ano ba ito, cash deposit ba ito, check deposit ba ito. So, sa records po namin, hindi na po kami gumagamit, wala na po yung parang, wala po talaga as far as I know po. Wala pong in-flow or out-flow. Pero, nung ginawa lang po itong report based po doon sa

**[04:13:44.150] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
request ng prosecution, we are... We identified ano pong code yung maaaring based doon sa pumapasok sa account. So yun po yung naging base po namin. Kung

**[04:13:55.000] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
baga po hindi pumapasok doon sa chart of accounts ninyo and somehow this would be falling under perhaps unidentified?

**[04:14:07.160] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa perspective po namin, hindi lang po namin ma-identify kung inflow po ba siya or outflow? Pero nagkaroon po ng transaction doon sa account. Hindi lang po namin [unclear].

**[04:14:19.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo, hindi po namin makategorize at the point nung ginagawa po namin ito kung inflow or

**[04:14:24.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
outflow.

**[04:14:25.360] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Because if it is inflow, sir, inflow, wealth, yan.

**[04:14:30.400] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko rin po masabi.

**[04:14:31.780] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
That's my personal. Okay, that's my personal. Now, next question, attorney. You know, every time you say from China, It can easily become a headline especially nowadays but this is what we wanted to make sure kasi yung summary dito sa 319 million from China eh gusto natin ma-establish and approximately yung 319 million inward remittances to Cale88 Foods Corporation associated with China Para lang po hindi tayo mag-overstate ng record, does AMLC actually establish that the economic source of those funds was from China? Was China? Or does the table only establish that the remitters had addresses reported as being in mainland China or in Hong Kong?

**[04:15:28.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
None of the above, Your Honor. Ang meron po is Based on records, as reported by the reporting entity or covered person, ang nilagay po nila na place of remitter, place or address of the remitter ay ito pong mga bansa po na ito. So, ito po ay based po as reported sa amin nung covered person na nag-report po.

**[04:15:53.640] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
And sorry

**[04:15:54.400] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
ha, and you say, just to clarify, you say na reported address of the remitter, not the location of a correspondent bank? Tama ba?

**[04:16:07.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Opo, tama po. Nakalagay po dito sa may note po kami na sa footnote number 9 po. Based on the remitter's address as reported and not on the correspondent bank. Where the address does not state the country, the city state that is used po. So

**[04:16:26.120] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
siguro ito nila yung last ipupunto ko, attorney. Can AMLA... Can AMLC identify the natural or juridical persons who sent the funds, their relationship for example to itong Cale88 and the stated purpose of the remittance whether ito man ay payment ng goods or services, loan man ito, investment, capital infusion or another transaction? Kasi pag tinignan mo yung operation, parang concerning talaga eh.

**[04:17:00.780] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
On the basis of the CTRs and STRs, no po kung ano lang kasi yung nai-report po sa amin. But if we, if in ordinary procedure po, if we conduct further investigation, we'll be able to identify po, Your Honor.

**[04:17:13.500] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
And the STR alone states 1,197 dun sa bistro. Dito sa Kale, I

**[04:17:31.550] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
think there are three. I think there are three.

**[04:17:34.770] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Is that correct?

**[04:17:36.430] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
For the inward remittance po, there are three po, your honor.

**[04:17:40.150] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Anyway, salamat po at naliwanagan ako kahit papano. Salamat po.

**[04:17:45.150] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Marami po, salamat.

**[04:17:45.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. The Senate President is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes when you're ready.

**[04:17:50.930] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Good afternoon, Atty. Buenaventura.

**[04:17:55.690] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Good

**[04:17:55.870] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
afternoon, po,

**[04:17:56.350] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Senate President.

**[04:17:56.850] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Tinitignan ko itong report ninyo na finurnish kami yung Annex DD-9 Letter D, no? May nakita kong pattern dito. From 2009 to 2013, ang transactions reported by VP Sara for that time frame alone is about 2.7 billion pesos.

**[04:18:22.940] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Lumalabas parang that transaction alone It's almost 70-80% of the total 3.3 billion transaction. So, for example sa 2009, 700 million, 2010, 600 million, 2011, 500 million. Ito ba, alam ko matagal na ito, ito ba tinitignan rin ng AMLC?

**[04:18:52.950] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies, Your Honor, I don't have a copy po nung... Nung report po na nabanggit nyo right now with me po.

**[04:19:00.940] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Ito

**[04:19:01.420] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
yung report na finurnish nyo sa amin.

**[04:19:04.420] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Confidential information sharing. Wala lang po akong copy on hand po. But just to answer na lang po your question po.

**[04:19:15.280] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As stated lang po doon sa report, naka-indicate po that they were included in that report po. So, yun na po yung maisasagot ko po doon sa tanong nyo po.

**[04:19:25.800] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
But it's an unusual trend kasi compared to the others na on the average 40 million lang in transaction, ito is about 2.7 billion in transaction in the span of 5 years. In your opinion, is this something that AMLC should look at despite, alam ko matagal na siya?

**[04:19:45.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your

**[04:19:46.360] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Honor,

**[04:19:49.340] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
tinitignan, hindi ko po maalala po kasi yung exact na nakalagay po, but generally po, yung historical naman po na transaction, tinitignan din po kasi po, part din po sa tinitignan kung nagkaroon ba ng biglaang...

**[04:20:11.230] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank

**[04:20:12.110] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
you for that answer. And then, nakita ko rin dito sa report ninyo na out of the 34 STRs, again kay Vice President Sarreto, 30 nasa period between 2022 to 2025. So that's about 80% nung kanyang STRs nasa tatlong taon lang. Bakit nasa tatlong taon lang out of the entire 18-year period?

**[04:20:43.630] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, hindi ko po masagot ito po ay kung ano po yung lumabas sa record namin na nireport po ng covered person. Yun po yung...

**[04:20:51.170] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Yes, tama nga. Galing to sa report nyo. Anong sinasabi ng inyong report? Bakit in three years out of the...

**[04:21:01.840] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
18 years. Doon ang bulto ng STRs.

**[04:21:06.800] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies po, Your Honor. Wala lang po kasi ako nung copy ng report so hindi ko po masagot kung ano po yung naka-indicate po sa report po, Your Honor.

**[04:21:13.840] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Wala ka ba? Galing sa iyo yung report?

**[04:21:15.920] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Wala po akong copy nung on-hand po. Hindi po siya isa doon sa dala ko po na copy, Your Honor.

**[04:21:21.880] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Ito yung nanggaling to dito sa October

**[04:21:33.390] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
1.

**[04:21:40.110] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Request for summary. Ito po.

**[04:21:41.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sorry

**[04:21:42.230] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po. Yung table 3 po ba, Your Honor? Table 3 po.

**[04:21:45.290] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Yes, table 3.

**[04:21:47.210] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ah, table 3 po.

**[04:21:48.630] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Tingnan mo yung table 1 and table 3. Tama.

**[04:21:55.240] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Okay.

**[04:21:55.660] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, pasensya na po, Your Honor. Maari po bang maipaulit po yung katanungan?

**[04:22:00.660] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Tingnan mo yung table

**[04:22:01.040] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
1.

**[04:22:01.680] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Table 1 po.

**[04:22:02.340] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Kay Vice President Sara 34.

**[04:22:05.460] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
STRs. Table 3, 30. Bakit nandoon sa tatlong taon yung bulto ng STRs niya?

**[04:22:15.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ito po, Your Honor, ay binilang lang po namin sa amin po. At ang bilang po namin ay from 2007 to 2025.

**[04:22:27.230] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Correct. Alam ko binilang niyo. Pero bakit nga?

**[04:22:32.600] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Anong dahilan ng STRs? Ano yung mga grounds na na-declare siyang STR?

**[04:22:37.300] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So, Your Honor, yung pong mismong report po ng covered person, meron po nakilagay po kung ano yung reason. Kung kailangan po natin nung reason, hindi ko po, on top of my head po, hindi ko po siya kabisado. I'll have to refer po dun sa mismong record po. Ano

**[04:22:55.860] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
ba yung mga reasons na, dito lang, concerning this one,

**[04:23:01.100] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Natatandaan mo? Doon sa 30.

**[04:23:04.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, apologies po. I cannot recall po yung sa 30 po. Ay hindi ko po siya intentionally tinignan when I was preparing for my testimony po, Your Honor.

**[04:23:16.240] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Okay. Meron akong, pero hindi ito comprehensive. May mga nakita kong, I just went through it lang very quickly lang. Emalversation of public funds and property.

**[04:23:31.970] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
graph and corrupt practices. Ito yung mga nakasulat sa ilan sa mga STRs.

**[04:23:39.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung yun po yung nakasulat yun, yun po as reported po ng covered person.

**[04:23:45.110] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
And then, nakita ko rin dito na marami dito ang source ay news articles.

**[04:23:52.400] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Sa inyo bang process, pag ganitong Mayroong grounds, ang dahilan ay malversations of public funds and property and then galing news articles. Anong susunod na step?

**[04:24:08.950] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, ito po ay yung

**[04:24:10.550] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
process lang naman po. Your Honor, hindi po masagot yung for this one. Process lang. Process lang. Ano yung

**[04:24:17.810] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
susunod na step?

**[04:24:18.710] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung may nag-report po sa amin na covered person, tapos indicate po nila yung particular na crime po, alam ba po, drug trafficking or kung ano man po. So, titignan po namin doon sa narrative nila, ano po yung basis bakit nila ni-report. So, alam ba po, binention po sila na news report. Tapos may nilagay po doon halimbawa na may nag-file po ng kaso, ganyan. So kami po, titignan po namin sinong agency ba yung dapat namin ma-coordinate to confirm po kung talaga bang may final na kaso, talaga bang may investigation. Kasi po, sabi nga po, paliwanag po kanina, yung sa amin po is the financial side po ng crime. So base po doon sa report, Kung baga, pag nag-contact po kami ng analysis tsaka further investigation po, titignan namin, okay, kung na-report po ito, may nag-file daw ng kaso, let's coordinate po dun sa law enforcement po, kasi naman po. And then titignan po namin, yung bang final nila, meron bang financial aspect po na-involve. Kasi maaari naman po nawala din eh. So kung meron po, yun po, magka-conduct na po kami ng normal po na investigation po. So

**[04:25:24.560] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
kahit na news report, inaktuhan nyo rin and you investigate?

**[04:25:28.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
kasama po yun, maaari pong maging factor po yun, maging trigger din po, kasama po ng all other like yung STRs, CTRs po. So tinitignan po namin on the overall information na meron kami, ano yung kung talaga ba mapoprogress or hindi po.

**[04:25:49.330] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank

**[04:25:49.710] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
you,

**[04:25:50.050] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Mr. President.

**[04:25:51.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you. It should be Senator Judge Padilla but while waiting for him, Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo. AMLC is recognized. You may proceed sir. You have two minutes. If Senator Padilla is still not available, Senator Judge Pangilinan will be up next. You may proceed sir when you're ready.

**[04:26:09.430] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Thank you, Presiding Officer. Attorney Ronel Buenaventura.

**[04:26:14.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:26:15.940] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Bagamat luwabas na po dito sa impeachment court ito pong issue na ito tinggal po sa mga bank transactions po ng VP, mag-iimbestiga pa rin po ba ang AMLC? or AMLC. Patungkol ba sa mga accounts po niya? O hindi na?

**[04:26:33.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung decision po na yun ay kailangan ko pa po i-discuss din po internally sa amin po. So hindi ko pa po masagot ngayon po.

**[04:26:42.660] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Alright.

**[04:26:44.780] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Base po sa records ng AMLC, AMLC, may pera po mag-isawa sa bangko. Tama po ba? 2007 hanggang 2025.

**[04:26:55.400] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Pakicheck po dyan sa papel nyo.

**[04:27:00.970] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, yung nandito po na report po namin, transaction po nila ito. Hindi po namin masabi kung meron pong laman na pera po

**[04:27:11.130] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
sa particular na bank account po nila.

**[04:27:13.030] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Okay, so transactions lang po ito.

**[04:27:15.030] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo, transactions.

**[04:27:15.450] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Saan po

**[04:27:15.750] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
hinango yung inyong dokumento na yan? Sino po nagbigay sa inyo yan?

**[04:27:20.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ito po yung repair po namin na summary po.

**[04:27:23.640] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Kaya nga

**[04:27:24.280] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
po saan po nakuha ninyo yung report na yan? Sa banko, di po ba?

**[04:27:28.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung basis po nito sa banko po.

**[04:27:29.900] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Sa banko,

**[04:27:30.440] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
ayun.

**[04:27:31.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Banko and covered person po, in

**[04:27:32.820] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
general po.

**[04:27:33.480] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Okay, alright. So taliwas po ito sa SALN EVP na zero cash on hand at zero cash in bank from 2019 to 2025. Pero huwag nyo na po sagutin yan kasi baka wala po kayong dokumento. Okay.

**[04:27:49.280] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Kung wala po kayong personal knowledge at walang definitive AMLC findings hinggil po sa mga accounts na ito, attorney, ano po ang factual basis para sabihin nating legal o illegal ang source ng mga pera ng mag-asawa? O safe ba nating sabihin na walang problema ang mga pera nila at all?

**[04:28:09.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor,

**[04:28:11.800] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Sa akin po, I submit to this honorable court po to determine that po based po dun sa I understand po with the ongoing case po. Ako naman po ay kami naman po sa AMSA ay nasupina. Ito po yung pinaproduce po sa amin. So we just submit po. So yung pagbuo po nito o kung ano man po, appreciation po nasa honorable court na po, Your Honor.

**[04:28:32.680] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Very good answer, sir. Anyway. Can you identify if there are any specific amount that remains unexplained that is attributed to VP Sara after all transfers, legit transactions, and with funds with documents, sources?

**[04:28:51.850] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, for the same answer po, I leave it to the Honorable Court to determine kung if they think it is unexplained or not, Your Honor.

**[04:28:58.090] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
I will take that answer, sir. Anyway, without mentioning names or attributing to someone, Atty. Ronel, normal po ba sa isang government official na makipag-transact sa isang foreign company or state-owned company without mentioning any names or based on your experience, may nakikita na ba kayo na ganun na... of government official natin, transacting business with state-owned, hindi lang China, pwede sa abroad, US, Europe, lalaking ipag-transact po isang government official natin.

**[04:29:33.040] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Maikli pa lang po yung servisyo ko sa gobyerno, Your Honor, so hindi ko po masagot po yung...

**[04:29:37.520] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
So

**[04:29:37.660] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
you haven't encountered yet?

**[04:29:39.300] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:29:40.260] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Alright. Well, Mr. Presiding Officer, that's it for me for this afternoon. Thank you. Thank you.

**[04:29:47.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Pangilinan. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready.

**[04:29:51.190] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Thank you

**[04:29:57.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
once again, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[04:30:00.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
In general

**[04:30:16.860] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po, yes sir. At

**[04:30:18.240] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
dito sa mga kasong ito na dinadala niyo sa CA, nagbibigay kayo ng AMLA records, di ba?

**[04:30:30.180] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes po. Yes po. Totoo po.

**[04:30:32.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes.

**[04:30:32.920] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
At tinatanggap ng Korte.

**[04:30:34.620] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Opo.

**[04:30:35.320] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
At ginagamit ng Korte ng basehan para mag-issue o hindi mag-issue ng freeze order.

**[04:30:43.000] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[04:30:44.400] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
At kung wala yung mga records na yun at dahil nga absolute confidentiality, mapapabilis ba yung trabaho niyo?

**[04:30:56.380] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung absolute confidentiality po, hindi po kami mapag-file ng kaso. At kung mag-file man kami at wala pong supporting documents, ididismiss lang po yun ng court po.

**[04:31:05.260] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Kaya, ibig sabihin, yung absolute confidentiality only pertains to unauthorized disclosures.

**[04:31:15.370] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po, Your Honor.

**[04:31:16.170] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Hindi ba?

**[04:31:16.590] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apo.

**[04:31:16.930] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Pero pagka authorized disclosures, the absolute confidentiality will not apply.

**[04:31:25.570] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Insofar as the law, the rules and guidelines would allow.

**[04:31:29.430] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Kung

**[04:31:29.830] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
susundan natin yung argumento na may absolute confidentiality ang AMLA records, wala na kayong na-freeze ng mga account, wala na kayong may sasampangkasong money laundering at iba pa.

**[04:31:44.850] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po. Tama po. Hindi rin po kami makapagsabit nung halimbawa po nagre-request ng mga...

**[04:31:49.770] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Kaya

**[04:31:50.110] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
hindi na namin

**[04:31:50.610] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
kayo

**[04:31:50.850] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
bibigyan ng budget.

**[04:31:52.070] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Ayun nga po sasabihin ko.

**[04:31:52.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi na po kami makasabit ng mga documents to support the budget request po, Your Honor.

**[04:31:57.870] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Bakit namin kayo bibigyan ng budget? Sabi nga ni Senate President Soto, magsara na lang kayo. Hindi ba?

**[04:32:05.980] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
No other questions, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[04:32:10.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
While we're waiting for Senator Judge Rob, Senator Judge J.V. Ejercito is recognized. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes. When you're ready.

**[04:32:18.500] Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang hapon, Director.

**[04:32:22.700] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Magandang hapon po, Honorable Senator.

**[04:32:24.960] Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito**  
Meron na ng katanungan, pagpalilinaw. Kapag gumagawa ba ng covered banks ng CTR at STRs, Para sa mga corporation, tinutukoy din ba nila kung sino mismo ang actual na nasa ligod o nagsasagawan ng transaction?

**[04:32:42.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Nakalagay po kung sino yung pangalan, kung kaninong account. May entries po kami, depende po sa nature ng transaction, like po yung remittance po, nakalagay po kung sino yung nagpadala, tsaka yung address po. So may iba po na alam, may iba po, depende po sa nature po ng transaction, your honor.

**[04:33:01.560] Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito**  
So sa kaso po ng mga korporasyong nakasal sa table 4 nung inyong summary particular po pag tinutukoy ng mga bangko o covered institutions kung ang vice president o si Atty. Carpio nga ba ang mismong nagsagawa ng mga transaksyong naging subject ng mga CTR at STR?

**[04:33:22.430] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung table 4, yung juridical, ay yung juridical persons, ay yung corporations po your honor.

**[04:33:30.970] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po masagot your honor kasi kung ang tanong niyo po ay kung si attorney Carpio po kasi Hindi ko po masagot kasi maaari pong nailagay po sa report pero hindi ko po, kumbaga hindi ko po consciously inisa-isa po yung report po. So maaari pong nakalagay siya doon, maaari rin po na hindi.

**[04:33:50.190] Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito**  
So hindi masasabi no?

**[04:33:51.730] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko lang po masasabi ngayon po kasi isa-isahin po para po malaman namin.

**[04:33:57.360] Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito**  
So ano pong ibang informasyon na pwede natin makuha o kailangan para malaman kung sino talaga ang gumawa ng ngayong transaksyon?

**[04:34:09.520] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kadalasan po ito, in general na lang po kasi hindi ko po masagot yung dito po.

**[04:34:18.140] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Para po malaman namin yung mga actual na transaksyon po. Yung mga detalye po, nagpa-file po kami kung sa banko po yun nung bank inquiry po. Mag-i-inquire na po kami with the banks po. Tapos, hingi din po kami ng kung kinakalangan po yung mga SEC records. Request po kami to determine sino po yung mga persons po behind this.

**[04:34:41.790] Sen. Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito**  
Okay, thank you. I'm so beside you, sir. Salamat, Director.

**[04:34:45.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Zubiris, recognize.

**[04:34:52.330] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
Magandang hapon, Attorney Buenaventura.

**[04:34:54.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Magandang hapon po.

**[04:34:55.290] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
Thank

**[04:34:55.590] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
you. Atty. Buenaventura, alam ko gatekeeper, alam po kayo record keeping. Pag po pumapasok ng mga suspicious transactions, re-record niyo yan for further study. Di ba po?

**[04:35:06.640] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[04:35:07.340] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
So, alam niyo din po, katulad binanggit kanina ni Sen. JV, alam niyo po kung saan galing papasok yung pera at palabas? Saan papunta?

**[04:35:16.540] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As reported po, yes po.

**[04:35:18.060] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
As reported. So, you have a detailed breakdown. Kung sino yung nagpapadala ng remittance o pera sa isang account na suspicious.

**[04:35:27.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes po, basta nai-report po sa amin, makikita po yun sa records ako.

**[04:35:31.530] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
Dahil dito sa binigyan yung records sa Cal... How do you pronounce it? Is it Kale or Kale? Kasi Kale kasi is double L eh. Kale, C-A... Anyway, C-A-L-E 88, Kale 88, or Kale 88.

**[04:35:46.480] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
Pwede bang, could you furnish the court a copy of the breakdown of all the remittances from overseas? Yung China, Hong Kong, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Russia, South Africa, Ukraine, Tajikistan. Could you just copy the court for us to study further and closely yung mga deposits na ito?

**[04:36:08.200] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor, yung pong

**[04:36:09.740] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
CRS aggregate amount nandito po sa Table 5. Yung actual na report po on this one po, nasabit na po namin sa court.

**[04:36:21.790] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yung CTRs na copies po, yung mga pinapabasa po sa akin.

**[04:36:25.450] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
May we ask the presiding officer, Mr. Presiding Officer, can you give us the breakdown of the companies that are remitting from these other countries? Binagit kasi lang natin mainland China, tsaka Hong Kong. There are other countries that almost add up to 50 million. It's interesting to find out itong mga kumpanya kung ano itong mga kumpanya. Should we have the AMLC furnish that to us or should we just do it on our own, Mr. President?

**[04:36:50.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We

**[04:36:51.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
can, the clerk can do that. The clerk can assist, the clerk of court rather, can assist the senator-judge in calling that from the evidence on record as submitted by AMLC. Nandun po yan sa mga sinabit niyo po, di po? Yung mga kumpanya mula sa Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Russia.

**[04:37:07.090] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
As reported po. Yes po.

**[04:37:08.590] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri**  
As reported. At sana ilalagay po individually which companies at magkano yung rinipit po nila sa atin. Maraming salamat po sa inyong office.

**[04:37:15.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The clerk

**[04:37:16.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
is so directed to furnish Senator Judge Zubiri with a list of the companies coming from the countries mentioned in the AMLC report under the table submitted by Attorney Ronel. All the Senator Judges

**[04:37:31.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
as requested by Senator Judge Villanueva. So ordered.

**[04:37:35.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the Senate President, Senator Judge Robin Padilla is no longer availing of his interjection. The Presiding Officer has just a few more interjections. I refer you to page 6, table 6 of your summary. Ano po ang year covered nito?

**[04:37:57.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ito

**[04:37:58.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
po yung CTR involving insurance policies, investment-related transactions.

**[04:38:05.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
2007 to 2025 po, Your Honor.

**[04:38:08.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
2007 to 2025. Napansin ko po rito, dito pala nakalagay yung time deposit. So, 529,805,306 pesos and 40 centavos yung time deposits.

**[04:38:21.480] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yung nasa...

**[04:38:22.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Hiwalay

**[04:38:24.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
po yan dun sa deposito sa bangko. Or counted po yan dun?

**[04:38:29.900] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasama po yan,

**[04:38:30.960] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Your Honor.

**[04:38:31.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ano ibig sabihin ng kasama? I mean,

**[04:38:33.080] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
counted po yan. Counted po. Counted po sa nareport po ng banko. Time deposit po ay sa banko po ito, Your Honor.

**[04:38:40.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Opo, ba't hiniwalay nyo ng table dito?

**[04:38:43.190] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kasi yung investment

**[04:38:47.720] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
related transaction po yung narequest po, yung nandun po sa letter ng prosecution, Your

**[04:38:53.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Honor.

**[04:38:53.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So dito po sa table 3, kaugnay ng CTR at STR from 2022 to 2025, Kasama po yung time deposits na 529 million for the period covered by 2022 and 2025. Tama po?

**[04:39:12.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi po yung entire 529.

**[04:39:15.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kasi

**[04:39:15.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
nga 22 to 25 lang.

**[04:39:17.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Pero

**[04:39:17.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
yung 2022 to 2025, yung 500 million kasama yan sa 4.4 billion.

**[04:39:27.900] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po. Sa table, ano number po ito?

**[04:39:31.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Page 1.

**[04:39:34.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So

**[04:39:35.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
dyan papasok yung rollover sa kabuhang halaga na 529 million.

**[04:39:42.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yung sinasabing

**[04:39:48.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
rollover ng mga kabilang partido.

**[04:39:52.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Pero kaugnay lamang yan sa 529 million out of the 4.4 billion.

**[04:40:01.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I'm simply disaggregating it, Atty. Ronald.

**[04:40:03.320] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po yun. Tama po yun.

**[04:40:05.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, yung parte ng time deposit na posibleng i-rollover dito sa 4.4 billion ay 529 million lamang?

**[04:40:13.570] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung yung napag-usapan po na rollover, yes po. Pero hindi ko po sinasabi na rollover po yun. As reported lang

**[04:40:22.130] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
po.

**[04:40:22.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Salamat po. Sunod po. Kunti lamang po ito.

**[04:40:30.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yung mga korporasyon, Sabihin na po natin, halimbawa, I refer you to table 2. Gencorp Industries. Yung outflow po, 1.9 billion. Yung inflow po, 1.06 billion. Mas malaki po yung outflow kesa sa inflow. Ibig sabihin, mas marami yung transaksyon na hindi na-cover or na-report bilang suspicious na pumasok dun sa account. ng korporasyon. Is that a safe inference?

**[04:41:08.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Inferring from your table.

**[04:41:09.950] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Kung this is my personal, ano lang po yun, I don't want to add an analysis na hindi po officially na gawa po namin. So, it would appear lang po na mas mataas po yung outflow kesa sa inflow. So, maari lang po, maari lang po na meron pong hindi Kung ang gusto po natin mapakita ay dapat equal po yung inflow or outflow, base po nalalabas lang dito sa pag-initial ko lang po natingin ay mas marami pong laman na hindi po namin, na hindi po nai-report.

**[04:41:50.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Na

**[04:41:51.030] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
hindi po covered o hindi suspicious na pumasok sa account ng kumpanya.

**[04:41:55.330] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[04:41:56.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Is that a fair inference in the realm of possibilities?

**[04:42:02.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, sir. But sa possibility lang po. So, it's my...

**[04:42:05.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Only

**[04:42:06.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
in the realm of possibilities, of course. Now, I refer you to table 3.

**[04:42:18.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
424 million and total combined na pumasok at lumabas. Tama po ba?

**[04:42:28.710] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po.

**[04:42:29.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Pumasagat lumabas sa mga account ni Vice President Duterte at kanyang asawa na si Atty. Carpio.

**[04:42:35.330] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po. 424179536.1

**[04:42:38.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And

**[04:42:38.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
this covers only the period 2022 to 2025.

**[04:42:41.530] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Tama po, Your Honor.

**[04:42:44.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sir,

**[04:42:47.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
again, I tried to bring things in its absurd possibility to find out and test a hypothesis.

**[04:42:56.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
In-add ko po yung SALN ng ikalawang Pangulo mula 2022, 23, 24, at 25. In-add. Hindi naman dapat in-add yun, di ba? Kasi iba-ibang taon naman yun eh. At kasama na yung deklarasyong na huli doon sa unang deklarasyon. It totaled 336 million. And change. Hindi pa rin umabot ng 424. Meaning to say, on the assumption na walang ginastos, walang ginastos mula sa lahat ng assets nila at lahat na dineposito sa banko, hindi pa rin naabot sa ganito kalaking halaga.

**[04:43:38.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sa palagay at pananaw nyo, ulitin ko, in the realm of possibilities, what would explain this huge amount?

**[04:43:47.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Posible ba yung in and out?

**[04:43:52.220] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Hindi ko po masagot. Hindi ko po nakita yung sa SALN. Pero kung base lang po dun sa premise na binigay niyo po.

**[04:43:57.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Based on the premise that I give because it's an accurate depiction of the SALN for those four years.

**[04:44:02.760] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
So yung po kasing transaction as reported to us, they happened across the years, across the entire year po or years po. So hindi po siya...

**[04:44:13.780] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Four years. I mean ibig sabihin sa isang taon yung transaction po na to hindi naman po ginawa lang ng isang beses kundi spread din po as reported to us po. So kung ang pagkakaintindi ko po sa SALN kasi yung ending po yun sa December po. So kung yung asset po kasi hindi naman po siya yung transaction.

**[04:44:39.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Hindi nga dapat

**[04:44:40.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
bilang yun diba pero binilang ko na nga eh.

**[04:44:49.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So

**[04:44:50.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
hindi niyo po kayang paliwanag. You cannot explain how it reached 424 million. Assuming the presumption of this representation is correct with respect to her SALN.

**[04:45:07.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Dun sa

**[04:45:11.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
4.4 billion, yun din ang katanungan ko.

**[04:45:15.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yung 4.4 billion covering the period 2007 to 2025.

**[04:45:22.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Again, I bring it to its absurd point. We tried to add to all of the amounts in the combined SALNs for those covered period of 2007 to 2025. It totaled only 840 million.

**[04:45:39.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Again, as you said earlier, Atty. Ronel, kasama na nga dyan yung assets, di ba? Hindi na nga yung sa deposito lang sa banko, hindi nga lang yung cash eh.

**[04:45:47.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, you would need 5x at least, 5 times of the combined SALN from 07 to 2025 to be able to explain the huge amount of 4.4 billion in transactions.

**[04:46:02.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
In the realm of possibilities again, can you explain how it could reach that amount knowing that the highest SALN in 2025 was at 98 million and the lowest SALN in 2007 was at 7 million?

**[04:46:18.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Can you

**[04:46:19.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
explain

**[04:46:19.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
it, sir?

**[04:46:20.630] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
I am unable to explain or answer that, Your Honor. Just based on the records, Your Honor.

**[04:46:27.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Alam

**[04:46:27.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
ko po, but in the realm of possibilities, is there a possible explanation that can come to your mind as to how this can be?

**[04:46:36.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If you know?

**[04:46:37.980] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
No, Your Honor. On top of my head, Medyo nahihirapan din po ako. So

**[04:46:43.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
hindi niyo rin po kayang paliwanan kung bakit umabot ng ganito ka apat? 4.4 billion yung amount. Based on the data I relayed to you on the SALN.

**[04:46:56.190] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yun po, hindi ko po masagot po, Your Honor.

**[04:46:59.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ang sweldo po ng ikalawang Pangulo, kada buwan ay 350,000. From 2022 to 2025, subalit

**[04:47:11.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
ayon sa datos niyo, ang demand sa accounts nilang mag-asawa, sweldo lang po yung pinagbabasayan ko. Lilitan ko naman, again, to the opposite absurd. To the opposite absurd point, kaya niyo bang ipaliwanag kung paano pa rin nakarating ng 424 million ang kabuhang transaksyon sa loob ng 2022 to 2025 kung ang sweldo po, indeklaradong kitaw income, base sa sweldo lamang ay 350,000?

**[04:47:43.430] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Apologies po, Your Honor, I cannot explain.

**[04:47:45.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You

**[04:47:45.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
cannot explain it as well?

**[04:47:46.990] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:47:48.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Nothing further, Atty. Ronel. Thank you for your time. Are there any other questions? If there are none, nakaraos at nairaos din natin, Atty. Ronel.

**[04:48:02.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Salamat po sa inyong oras, sa inyong panahon, sa inyong pasensya, sa inyong patnubay at pagsagot sa katanungan ng mga Senator-Judges, gayon din ang magkabilang partido. At sa inyong mahabang pasensya sa loob ng dalawang araw, kayo na po yung record holder ng may pinakamahabang panahon na naupo sa witness stand po as of now. Hindi lamang sa impeachment trial na ito pero sa mga nakarang impeachment trials din. Hindi ko po sasabihin congratulations pero maraming salamat na lang po. You are excused sir. Thank you sir.

**[04:48:35.810] AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura**  
Maraming salamat din po sa Honorable Court at sa Defense and Prosecution. Naipalawanan ko naman po at least yung kung ano po yung mga dapat namin maipalawanag po. Marami pong salamat.

**[04:48:46.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you,

**[04:48:47.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Ronel.

**[04:48:51.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, what is the pleasure of the lead prosecutor, the Hon. Luistro. I'm in receipt here of 20 names of witnesses for the various banks and insurance companies.

**[04:49:07.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What is your pleasure, Hon. Luistro?

**[04:49:09.890] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
Your Honor, before we proceed to our next witness who will be representative of The First Bank, which is the land bank of the Philippines. I have a short manifestation with respect to the summaries which the prosecution received just today from the Bureau of Internal Revenue. We would like to confirm for the record, Your Honor, whether the defense as well as the Honorable Impeachment Court received the same summary, Your Honor. This pertains to the taxpayer's profile, incomes and taxes, Your Honor, because I understand that this will be presented and will take a significant part in the presentation of our BIR representative in the coming days, Your Honor.

**[04:49:53.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I'm only seeing it now, actually, so I confirm receipt just now. How about on the part of the respondent, Attorney Sheila? Do you confirm receipt of the summary?

**[04:50:05.820] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
Good afternoon, Your Honor. Unfortunately, Your Honor, I just refreshed my email and it doesn't seem that we have received this summary. But I'm not sure what summary this is. Is this a new summary being submitted?

**[04:50:20.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Dated October 6 from the BIR.

**[04:50:23.340] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
We haven't received it yet, Your Honor.

**[04:50:27.340] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
For the guidance of the defense, Your Honor, it is shown in the email we received that the BIR furnished copy as well to info. at nfslaw.com.ph which I believe is the email of the defense.

**[04:50:42.630] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
May

**[04:50:42.790] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
I know the time?

**[04:50:45.470] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
This was received at 12.14pm

**[04:50:50.030] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
today.

**[04:50:51.350] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
May I ask again, Your Honor, the email address that the lead prosecutor mentioned?

**[04:50:59.910] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
It's info at nfslaw. dot com dot ph.

**[04:51:05.470] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
Then that settles it. We will not be able to receive that because that email address is wrong. It's not NFS. It should be FNS.

**[04:51:14.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
To settle

**[04:51:15.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the issue, the chair is instructing the clerk of court to kindly furnish attorney Sheila with a copy now with a few hours of delay compared to the 1230 receipt.

**[04:51:30.390] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
May we inquire as well, your honor, if it is appropriate for the prosecution to furnish today a copy of these summaries to the honorable senator judges so that they can browse, study...

**[04:51:43.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The court will be the one to do

**[04:51:45.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
that, honorable ministro.

**[04:51:46.670] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
We

**[04:51:47.130] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
submit, your honor.

**[04:51:48.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
From our copy.

**[04:51:51.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You can easily print one. But, attorney Sheila, you confirm receipt of a hard copy?

**[04:51:57.070] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
Yes, Your Honor. I confirm receipt of a document.

**[04:52:01.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I think you have time to go over it. With 20 witnesses. And after the banks and the insurance companies, that's only when the BAR will be presented. I don't even know when that will be. So, yes, Honorable Rizro, what else can we do for you?

**[04:52:16.450] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
We are ready, Your Honor, for the presentation of our next witness.

**[04:52:20.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, who will handle the presentation of the next witness?

**[04:52:23.230] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro**  
I am yielding right now, Your Honor, to the counsel for the prosecution panel, Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim Alih.

**[04:52:33.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Jay, would that be your nickname?

**[04:52:35.310] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Atty. James, Your Honor.

**[04:52:36.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
James, yes, of course.

**[04:52:46.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Does the respondent already have the sequence of the banks and the witnesses to be presented? Do you already have it?

**[04:52:54.290] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:52:55.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, just to confirm, land bank will be first through witness Eunice and witness Raquel. Followed by AUB through Witness RC, Witness Edeli, and Witness Jerilee for the first time. Do you confirm, Atty. Sheila?

**[04:53:12.760] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:53:14.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Let's see if you can reach that far today.

**[04:53:19.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Who will handle the side of the respondent for these witnesses, Atty. Sheila?

**[04:53:25.810] Atty. Sheila C. Sison**  
For the respondent, it's going to be Atty. Carlo Joaquin Narvasa, Your Honor.

**[04:53:33.600] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Good morning, good afternoon again, your honor. I beg again your kind indulgence. I am James Brian Ibrahim Ali, counsel for the prosecutors. Your honors, I have the tall task of presenting all the banks listed, your honor.

**[04:53:50.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
All 20?

**[04:53:52.990] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
No, your honor.

**[04:53:54.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Only the banks, not the insurance companies?

**[04:53:56.510] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, your honor. I couldn't go that far, your honor.

**[04:53:58.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So you're talking only of all?

**[04:54:01.890] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Eight banks, your honor.

**[04:54:03.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
All 13 witnesses.

**[04:54:05.640] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor. As discussed during the pre-conference a while ago, we reduced the number to 13 witnesses, Your Honor.

**[04:54:15.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay. Attorney CJ, it will be you for the respondent.

**[04:54:18.040] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor. Good afternoon.

**[04:54:19.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Good afternoon. Okay. Call your first witness, Attorney James.

**[04:54:23.540] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you,

**[04:54:23.960] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor.

**[04:54:30.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The

**[04:54:30.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Clerk of Court is instructed to bring Ms. Eunice Sumatra to the witness stand. Kindly assist her. and situate her in the witness stand.

**[04:54:44.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, we are calling to, well, upon arrival, we will be calling to the witness stand Ms. Eunice Sumatra, the manager of San Pedro Davao branch of Land Bank of the Philippines.

**[04:54:58.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
With the permission of Attorney CJ, can Attorney James already make his offer while we're waiting for the witness?

**[04:55:04.310] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Of course, Your Honor.

**[04:55:05.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed with your offer, Attorney James.

**[04:55:07.630] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor. Before I proceed with my offer, Your Honor, in order to expedite the proceedings given the number of witnesses and the number of banks that we are about to present, we intend to present all the bank representatives today if possible. Hence, we will be adopting a common offer or purpose for all their testimonies. We may make additional purposes or specific offers at the proper time when we switch the witnesses, but we will have a basic

**[04:55:39.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So

**[04:55:39.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I guess the basic offer will apply to the first few witnesses and you will increase the offers or add to the offers as you go along?

**[04:55:48.580] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes that's correct your honor and that is also the reason why the order of our witnesses are like that. We will be working our way up to bigger and bigger transactions as we go along.

**[04:56:00.930] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, may we request that the offers be repeated for each and every witnesses because it may be, the objections may be differing for each of them.

**[04:56:12.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For each witness.

**[04:56:13.250] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:56:13.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And

**[04:56:13.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
it's okay, it's okay. We can listen to the offers. It can be abbreviated as well by Attorney James.

**[04:56:18.870] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank

**[04:56:19.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
you, Your Honor.

**[04:56:19.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Before

**[04:56:19.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
we

**[04:56:20.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
proceed with the offers, since the witness is already here, so that she can be seated. Miss Eunice, manumpa po muna kayo bago kayo mapo. Pakinggan niyo po iyong papanumpaan niyo at sumagot na lamang po kayo ng angkop sa dulo.

**[04:56:35.980] Atty. Marivic Laurel Garcia**  
Kindly raise your right hand. You, Eunice Sumatra, do swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God.

**[04:56:53.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly answer through the mic, Ma'am Eunice.

**[04:56:56.990] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:56:58.230] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
May I request

**[04:57:08.010] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
also for the exclusion of any other witness?

**[04:57:12.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Are there any other witnesses in the gallery?

**[04:57:16.170] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Thank you, Your Honor.

**[04:57:19.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Meron the

**[04:57:24.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Clerk of Court through the OSA. Can you check?

**[04:57:34.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Are all the witnesses in the holding room?

**[04:57:38.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Are all the other witnesses in the holding room?

**[04:57:43.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay,

**[04:57:43.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the clerk of court confirms that there are no other witnesses in the gallery. They are all in the holding room, Attorney CJ. You may proceed

**[04:57:50.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
with your offer, Attorney James.

**[04:57:52.080] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, Your Honor. Good afternoon again and good afternoon to our friends from the defense. Your Honor, we are offering this witness to prove the following purposes and I will proceed to the common offer or purposes as I have mentioned a while ago. First, that the witnesses are the duly authorized representatives of the land bank, particularly this one, but later on, Asian United Bank, PS Bank, Metro Bank, Security Bank, BPI, PNB, and BDO. Sila ang authorized representatives ng mga bangko. Kikilalaanin nila at papatunayan ng mga bank records na ang bangko mismo. ang nagsumite sa hukumang ito. Bilang pagsunod, syempre, sa sabbina. Second, the aforementioned entities submitted bank records of the Vice President Zimmerman Duterte, her husband, Atty. Manassas Carpio, and entities in which the spouses maintain business interests to the Honorable Impeachment Court. Number three, the Vice President, together with her husband, Personally maintains at least 30 active bank accounts across 8 banks among others just for the years 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025. Number 4,

**[04:59:28.650] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
based on the bank records, the Vice President and Atty. Carpio's bank accounts have the following total year-end balance for the years 2022, 2023, 2024, at 2025. For 2022, Your Honor, the ending balance of the Vice President and Attorney Carpio's bank accounts

**[05:00:00.430] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
is more than 59 million pesos. For 2023, the year-end balance of the Vice President and her husband, Atty. Carpio is more than 71 million pesos. In 2024, the year-end balance of the Vice President and her husband, Atty. Carpio is more than 22 million pesos. And in 2025, The ending balance of their bank accounts across eight banks is more than 35 million pesos. Number five, when taken together across the years 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025, the vice president and her husband Atony Carpio's bank accounts have a total ending balance of more than 190 million pesos that are not declared in her SALNs.

**[05:01:07.410] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Number 6.

**[05:01:11.500] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Lastly, to prove such other relevant allegations and to identify and authenticate relevant documents. Your Honors, if I may, mga numero lamang po ito. Hindi nagbabago ang mga numero dahil sa politika o sa paulit-ulit. na objection. Kung tama at nagtutugma ang lahat, wala namang dapat ikatakot.

**[05:01:55.520] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
May I proceed now, Your Honor?

**[05:01:56.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, you may proceed. In fact, the Chair was going to make the same inquiry as well. Kindly proceed.

**[05:02:02.420] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, Your Honor. This is just part of our six, Your Honor.

**[05:02:06.690] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Kung tama at nagtutugma ang lahat, wala namang dapat ikatakot. Ipakita lang ng buong-buo at hayaan ng mga dokumento at ebidensya ang magsalita. At kung hindi nagtutugma, hindi na kailangang manakot gamit ang prosekyusyon, media, or korte. Magpaliwanag na lamang. Yan po yung aming offer for today, Your Honor. A common offer for all the banks, Your Honor. Thank you for your graciousness.

**[05:02:34.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Comment, Atty. CJ.

**[05:02:36.280] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Thank you,

**[05:02:36.920] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor. As to the third offer, Your Honor, as to 30 bank accounts across 8 banks, this offer is improper for this witness as an offer of testimony should be specific to the witness that is going to testify. This witness also would be incompetent as her knowledge would be confined to the Land Bank of the Philippines. As to the fifth, Your Honor, the supposed total of 190 million, this again is improper, Your Honor. This witness would only be competent and her knowledge be confined to the Land Bank of the Philippines. As for the sixth offer, Your Honor, as regards the numbers don't change, Your Honor, this is improper for an offer. No witness can prove that whatever that was, Your Honor. Your Honor, similarly,

**[05:03:51.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly continue.

**[05:03:52.050] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor. Thank you. And for the first and second and other offers, Your Honor, subject to cross, but we would also like to register our continuing objection to the inclusion examination and the presentation of Atty. Manassas Carpio's bank records. Your Honor, this is pursuant to Section 2 of Republic Act. 1405, which protects the confidentiality of bank deposits, subject, of course, to recognized exceptions. Although impeachment is expressly identified as an exception, Attorney Carpio is not the respondent being impeached, neither is he on trial. Again, Your Honor, we do not request for a ruling. We just wish that the Honorable Court

**[05:04:43.510] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Register our continuing objection.

**[05:04:46.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The continuing objection is duly noted and so registered. Allow the chair to make some comments as well. I believe Attorney James said it is a common offer when he gave the total of 30 bank accounts. However, many bank accounts Ms. Yunis will be testifying to will add up to 30, I guess.

**[05:05:11.000] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, sir.

**[05:05:11.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Correct?

**[05:05:12.400] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
That would have been my response, Your Honor, to the comment. Thank you.

**[05:05:28.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The ending balance is for 22, 23, 24, and 25. Correct?

**[05:05:32.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes.

**[05:05:32.730] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Allow me to clarify, Your Honor.

**[05:05:34.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, please. Kindly elucidate.

**[05:05:37.010] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor. Thank you. The important part of that offer, Your Honor, is the last part. That is the qualification of the 190 million, which provides that it is not declared in the SALN. So that is a total not declared in the SALN.

**[05:05:51.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Cumulatively.

**[05:05:52.410] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Certainly, we're not trying to mislead by saying that that is the total amount. That's why the qualifier... At the last portion was important that the 190 million pertains to not declared in the SALN through the years of 2022, 2023, until 2025.

**[05:06:12.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I also did not catch the purpose of offer 6. Attorney CJ was kind enough to have allowed it. But since it's a common purpose, I guess Attorney CJ... To a certain degree, allow him to make that common offer then and not repeat it over and over again. So that the court need not roll on it over and over again because I will not allow it henceforth.

**[05:06:39.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So we will leave that as it is right now and we will leave it in the records.

**[05:06:45.040] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright,

**[05:06:45.380] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor.

**[05:06:46.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly weigh your options in regard to the offer because if it will be the same...

**[05:06:51.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You wouldn't want that repeated again, at least insofar as offer number 6 is concerned. Would that be correct?

**[05:06:56.900] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor.

**[05:06:59.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, your witness. Subject to cross in regard to the other items of the offer. Your witness, Attorney James, but for the information of the body... The court would like to hear the presiding officer specifically how you will present this witness and will make the corresponding rulings as may be necessary to abbreviate the proceedings given that there are 20 witnesses testifying on basically almost the same thing with varying accounts and with varying bank names. So we will first hear out how this goes and see. What we need to do thereafter.

**[05:07:33.250] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:07:33.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, Atty. James.

**[05:07:35.070] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, Your Honor. And we have some ways also that we have in mind. Hopefully, in the proceedings, we will be able to also show it. Your Honor, with your kind permission. Good afternoon, sir.

**[05:07:45.330] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Good afternoon.

**[05:07:47.030] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, for the record, would you mind telling us your full name and your designation and which bank are you representing?

**[05:07:55.930] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Good afternoon, Your Honor. My name is Eunice Sumatra. I'm the branch head of Land Bank San Pedro Davao branch.

**[05:08:05.900] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright. And briefly, as bank head of Land Bank San Pedro Davao, what are your primary functions and responsibilities?

**[05:08:16.860] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
As branch head, I oversee the operation of the branch. But most of my responsibility would be marketing in nature because I have my branch operations officer who will directly involve in the day-to-day operation of the branch. And also as a branch manager, I see to it that all the procedures are properly executed and the internal control is observed.

**[05:08:49.440] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Before moving forward madam witness if you're comfortable with tagalog or english you may do so or you can mix them also so as long as you can freely express yourself okay

**[05:09:00.180] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
thank

**[05:09:00.700] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
you madam witness the honorable court issued a subpoena dated july 21 2026 addressed to lan bank direct directing it to submit certified true copies of bank records owned by the Vice President Atty. Carpio and or entities in which the spouses have business interests. Insofar as your branch is concerned, do you confirm receiving this subpoena?

**[05:09:30.100] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:09:31.440] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And what actions have you taken in response to the subpoena?

**[05:09:36.340] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
We gathered the transaction documents and have it authenticated by me. and submit it to our head office for submission here, Your Honor.

**[05:09:49.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright. And the same has been submitted to the Senate?

**[05:09:52.070] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:09:53.030] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright. Do you confirm, Mr. Witness, that the documents you mentioned that you authenticated insofar as your branch is concerned, these are all copies of authentic bank records?

**[05:10:07.250] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:10:08.430] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Well, and so far as your branch is concerned, right?

**[05:10:10.490] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes,

**[05:10:10.790] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor.

**[05:10:11.230] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright. Your Honor, with the confirmation of the witness that the documents directly submitted to the Honorable Court are authentic bank records, we hope to dispense with asking the witness to go through every document simply to confirm that these are the same documents that the bank submitted. We ground this on two points, Your Honor, if I may. The bank records, first is that the bank records were produced Pursuant to a subpoena and were directly submitted to the Honorable Impeachment Court, not to the prosecution. Similar to how the AMLC documents were presented yesterday and were treated. Second, and equally important, these are common exhibits of the parties. Given these two reasons, Your Honor, we respectfully submit that there is no need to ask the witness to go through each document Nearly to confirm what is not a genuine issue to begin with. And we can ask the more significant questions, Your Honor.

**[05:11:18.150] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, FMA.

**[05:11:19.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Attorney CJ?

**[05:11:20.190] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, there is proper procedure as regards the identification and authentication of documents. We may have questions regarding specific documents that she may have brought. and your honor as regards common exhibits the designation of documents as common exhibits that not does not compel the defense to agree to any this is actually a stipulation uh veiled veiled stipulation your honor common marking does not by itself constitute an admission or us agreeing to any stipulation on authenticity and identification An acceptance of the truth of these entries or waiver of any objections to admissibility or evidentiary purposes. Your Honor, as regards the subpoena, Your Honor, production pursuant to subpoena does not by that circumstance alone equate to any identification or authentication. Any document can be subpoenaed. That does not mean it is genuine. That does not mean that the party Who is here is the proper party to identify, authenticate, or even explain what those documents are. So I urge the honorable court to follow the procedure laid out for authentication and identification.

**[05:12:51.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The

**[05:12:51.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
court will take it at this point in advisement.

**[05:12:57.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Let's hear out, let's see how you will do it, Attorney James, with respect to authenticating these bank records. Again, as the court said earlier, we'll see how this pans out and we will make the corresponding adjustments in the subsequent witnesses as we go along. But for the meantime, we will take an advisement, your motion, and the corresponding objection thereto and or counter-manifestation of Attorney CJ, and we'll make the corresponding ruling as soon as we can as we go along.

**[05:13:26.750] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, if

**[05:13:28.190] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I may just add, perhaps to also assist the Honorable Court in that discussion, Your Honor. Insofar as the first issue of the Counsel for the Defense that they will not be allowed to question the authenticity or the documents themselves, I think that is the proper office of the cross-examination and time and again, they have been very...

**[05:13:52.780] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
lenient in exhausting that privilege in cross-examining. So that's not something that can be an issue at a later time. Secondly, Your Honor, this is not without precedent. I don't have to go back to previous trials. I can only go back to yesterday when the AMLC was, the authentication of the AMLC was dispensed with and if I remember it correctly, the Honorable Presiding Officer has mentioned the two conditions that I've mentioned. But again, Your Honor, I'm not expecting a ruling from the Honorable Court.

**[05:14:23.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Just to distinguish

**[05:14:28.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
and to enrich the records, it's quite different because insofar as the MLC and BAR records are concerned, these are public documents. These are private documents. Again, we will take it in advisement. Let's see how this will pan out. Attorney James?

**[05:14:42.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Sorry, Your Honor. May I just add last, just briefly, I forgot one more.

**[05:14:45.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, please.

**[05:14:46.580] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
In relation to the common exhibits, Your Honor, this is not merely just a common exhibit. Remember that the documents are certified through copies and insofar as the people involved in the markings are concerned, we did not hear any objection as to whether or not these are certified or not. So these are certified through copies, there were no objections during the marking and these were also marked by the defense. So that will be all, Your Honor.

**[05:15:13.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Anything for us, Attorney CJ? Yes, please.

**[05:15:16.720] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, the fact

**[05:15:21.750] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Certified true copy is irrelevant, Your Honor. The fact that it is a common exhibit does not mean that we will use these documents. They are the ones introducing it to this trial and that does preclude us from objecting to these.

**[05:15:38.770] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, may we proceed?

**[05:15:40.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Duly noted, Attorney CJ.

**[05:15:42.250] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, Your Honor.

**[05:15:42.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Again, we take everything in advisement at this point in time. I'm kindly proceed with your direct attorney, James.

**[05:15:48.020] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, at this point, I will be candid because I was only intending to present this witness to authenticate the documents and I would have dispensed her presence here today, Your Honor, in order to save the honorable court some time, Your Honor. I would proceed with other witnesses that would provide more substantial witnesses.

**[05:16:03.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What

**[05:16:04.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
documents would she have authenticated, counsel?

**[05:16:07.380] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
He would have authenticated, Your Honor, for the record, P-Roman numeral 2-8. dash 3 dash 1 dash C dash LBP that is representing land bank of the Philippines your honor for account number 14770989 98 in the name of Sara Zimmerman Duterte.

**[05:16:35.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Only one account, counsel?

**[05:16:41.150] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And a moment your honor.

**[05:16:52.890] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Just

**[05:16:53.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
for this witness, your honor, only one account, your honor. And that was the purpose of my manifestation a while ago. Apologies, your honor.

**[05:17:02.030] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel, I see two documents here.

**[05:17:11.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, I see two documents here. One, this is for land bank, right?

**[05:17:15.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, your honor.

**[05:17:16.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For San Pedro branch.

**[05:17:19.830] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
San Pedro branch.

**[05:17:25.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For land bank, there's one account in the name of the vice president, there's one account in the name of attorney Carpio, correct?

**[05:17:36.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I think the attorney Carpio's account, your honor, is with a different branch, your honor.

**[05:17:42.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, so again, the two accounts refer to the two land bank witnesses, one each.

**[05:17:47.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
One each, your honor.

**[05:17:49.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Why don't you

**[05:17:49.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
proceed, counsel? Let's see what's

**[05:17:52.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
in that bank account.

**[05:17:53.580] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Gladly, your honor. But at this point, your honor, may I ask the secretariat if the documents are already here, your honor, so that I can confront the witness.

**[05:18:02.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly furnish.

**[05:18:08.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
It's with you already, according to the clerk of court.

**[05:18:10.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, your honor. In that case, your honor, may I ask our assisting counsel.

**[05:18:16.830] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Assisting

**[05:18:17.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
counsels from

**[05:18:18.070] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
both sides to assist and confront the witness with documents supposedly submitted by their branch to the Honorable Court. Madam Witness, kindly go over this series of documents.

**[05:18:31.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Assisting counsels from both sides are granted continuing authority to approach the witness in the course of her testimony.

**[05:18:39.310] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, go over this and let us know once you're finished going over this.

**[05:18:50.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes,

**[05:18:50.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. CJ?

**[05:18:52.990] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
May I object to this? There's no foundation to what he just asked and did.

**[05:19:01.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Well, you are actually correct, Atty. CJ.

**[05:19:03.750] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:19:04.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
He jumped like a whole set of questions that should have properly... Again,

**[05:19:10.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
let us go through the process, Atty. James. Forgive me. Thank you for pointing it out, Atty. CJ.

**[05:19:16.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you,

**[05:19:17.240] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor.

**[05:19:18.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Let's go through the process of identification to see how cumbersome

**[05:19:21.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
and

**[05:19:23.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
difficult and painful the process will be.

**[05:19:27.860] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I hope you don't fault me, Your Honor, for trying to abbreviate the proceedings. Madam Witness, do you recall submitting the documents as mentioned in the subpoena? The one that you mentioned a while ago?

**[05:19:41.180] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:19:42.060] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And if these documents were shown to you? Would you be able to identify this?

**[05:19:46.410] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:19:47.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, our assisting counsel now is showing you documents coming from the court, referring to documents sourced from land bank San Pedro Branch. Can you kindly read over them? And check if these are the documents that you submitted to the Honorable Court.

**[05:20:08.150] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Objection, Your Honor. These are, again, improper procedurally. These documents cannot be lumped together. These documents are very specific and this is improper procedurally under the rules of evidence.

**[05:20:42.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Is

**[05:20:43.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
that correct?

**[05:20:44.070] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
As well, Your Honor, as the title or the designation

**[05:20:46.770] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
of the document.

**[05:20:47.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Consisting of 21 pages.

**[05:20:48.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes,

**[05:20:49.510] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor. P-Roman numeral 2-8-3-2-1-3-LBP.

**[05:20:56.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, consisting of 21 pages.

**[05:20:58.550] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes,

**[05:20:58.770] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your

**[05:20:58.910] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Honor. So there, Your Honor, there lacks a foundation. The Counsel is just supplying all of these to the witness.

**[05:21:07.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I'll consider it preliminary to...

**[05:21:14.270] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
May I just add

**[05:21:15.470] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
your honor because this will involve eight banks and we want to set the tone right from the start. This is not a court where we have to authenticate each and everything. Yes, it's an impeachment court. We have to respect it. We have to respect the process. But we cannot go to the same rigors simply because That is the rules of court. That is provided in the rules of court. And that is only suppletorily applied here. At the end of the day, Your Honor, I think that the rules of court should be used in order to expedite, in order to not delay, which we've seen for several times now. So I think that to cling to technicalities on matter that are not even genuinely in issue is counterproductive to the defense, to the prosecution, and I'm sure to the members of the honorable court so I just would like to put that on record at the onset because we will be talking about eight banks your honor 14 witnesses if I'm going to present this your honor as if I'm presenting it in court and trust me I've done and handled a lot of bank cases so I hope you understand where I'm coming from your honor and I hope the members of the court would understand where I'm coming from This is not a genuine issue to begin with.

**[05:22:34.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The

**[05:22:34.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
presiding officer is well familiar of the procedure that needs to be undertaken in order to comply with the rules, having done that also in the past. But as the presiding officer said earlier, I would rather that we go through this long, arduous, or whatever adjective you want to say, painful process, at least for this witness, for the impeachment court and the members of the court to be able to See and appreciate and decide for themselves after this witness. Attorney CJ, you want to make a countermanifestation?

**[05:23:05.200] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:23:05.860] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
The rules are there for a reason. The rules are there so that documents can be appreciated as what they are. Your Honor, and when a proper objection arises as regards any... problem or any question regarding these documents it should not be lumped together and this your honor is not procedural this is substantive this goes into the due process rights of my client who is the respondent accused this is a trial which will go into whether she will be acquitted or held guilty for The accusations of the prosecution. And the prosecution should focus on identifying and authenticating their documents and not rush. We are not rushing, Your Honor. That is the point. They should properly do their job according to the rules.

**[05:24:11.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Are

**[05:24:12.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you done, Attorney CJ?

**[05:24:13.530] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:24:14.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, Atty. James, kindly proceed accordingly. Let's let the members of the court experience, as you said, how we usually do it in court. Atty. Senator Judge Lacson is recognized. What is your pleasure, sir?

**[05:24:29.060] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Thank you, Mr. President Officer. Ito, land bank of the Philippines. In all likelihood, sweldo po ito. Now, I did some addition, ano? Nag-arithmetik ako.

**[05:24:39.940] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Four

**[05:24:40.420] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
years ito. Ito ba yung 98998? Account number? Sorry, Your Honor. Yung last digits niya, 8998?

**[05:24:50.870] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
8998, Yes,

**[05:24:51.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor.

**[05:24:52.190] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Inad ko po yung 4 years, umabot na mahigit 4 million. Dinibet ko sa 48 months, 102,000 per month. Magkano ba sweldo ng Vice President? 300 plus? Gumastos pa siya, eto na iwan. Ang point ko lang, Mr., ang haba ng diskusyon eh. E sweldo ng Vice President, may guusapan natin siguro?

**[05:25:13.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the record, the salary of a vice president is, given the salary grade, is anywhere between 330,000 to 350,000 per month.

**[05:25:22.060] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Pag kinumpit ko nga po itong apat na

**[05:25:23.880] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
taon, 102,000 a month lang eh.

**[05:25:28.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I think they're starting from the lowest to the biggest, Senator Judge Lacson. That's why this would

**[05:25:34.030] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
be the

**[05:25:34.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
lowest.

**[05:25:34.750] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Pardon me, counselor. Kung ang point lang is baka mabawasan ng 4 million yung inyong adisyon, e naintindihan naman namin na pag land bank sweldo. Automatic gaya ang pamapasok eh. Baka naman pwedeng bawas-bawasan natin yung araw ng ating pagdinig. Ang ditinggi natin, labing tatlo. Eh isa pa lang, land bang pa lang eh. Anong oras na tayo? Just a suggestion, Mr. President Officer.

**[05:26:02.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What

**[05:26:03.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
is your pleasure, Attorney James?

**[05:26:05.120] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, I understand fully the Honorable Lacson. That's why precisely, Your Honor, hindi ko nga po balak sanong magtanong dito sa witness. Gusto ko lang pong ipasok na po yung dokumento kasi meron naman po kaming witness later on na magtatahi lahat ng ito through our financial analyst. That's why po kanina ang dami ko pong attempts para po hindi na tayo matali. Sa procedural na diskusyon na hindi naman talaga nag-a-apply strictly sa... So I apologize for my attempt, Your Honor, because the only reason why I'm presenting the land bank representative of San Pedro is to authenticate this, put it in record, and then I will have moved on to my next witness, Your Honor. So I hope you understand, Honorable Lacson.

**[05:26:50.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I beg your

**[05:26:51.230] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
indulgence as well of the Honorable Lacson.

**[05:26:55.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
As the chair suggested earlier to attorney James, it might be the fault of the presiding officer for us to go through the process with this particular witness so that we get to see exactly how arduous the process is and will be for us to be able to make adjustments accordingly should it be necessary. So, I recognize the objections being raised by Atty. CJ as well. They are well-founded. However, Atty. James, again, proceed as you have done so in the past as you stated with this witness. And we will try to be patient as well.

**[05:27:35.240] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I'm sorry, Your Honor.

**[05:27:36.700] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, kindly proceed accordingly, Atty. James.

**[05:27:39.660] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, nabanggit niyo po kanina na meron kayo mga sinubmit na dokumento sa Honorable Court. Ano-ano po ba yung mga dokumentong ito? Kung naalala niyo po.

**[05:27:49.030] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
The movement of the peril account of the vice president.

**[05:27:53.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Ano pong tawag sa dokumento na iyon? Movement of payroll account?

**[05:27:57.590] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
It's the debit and the credit, your honor.

**[05:28:03.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Okay.

**[05:28:03.850] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
And it's also indicated what particular branch who facilitated that transaction.

**[05:28:10.310] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Okay. Ano pa po ang sinubmit ninyo?

**[05:28:12.630] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
We also submitted the

**[05:28:16.730] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Withdrawal slips, the transactions of the vice president done over the counter, your honor.

**[05:28:23.800] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
And we

**[05:28:25.380] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
also submitted outstanding balances year on year, your honor.

**[05:28:32.040] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Okay, so there are three documents or at least categories of documents. So there is the movement of payroll, Withdrawal slips and outstanding again, what was that?

**[05:28:43.720] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Outstanding balances.

**[05:28:45.540] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Outstanding balances.

**[05:28:47.240] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yeah, it's certificate of outstanding balances.

**[05:28:50.100] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Certificate of outstanding balances. Okay. And, um, say for example this movement of payroll if this is shown to you would you be able to identify this

**[05:29:02.250] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
yes

**[05:29:02.850] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
your honor

**[05:29:03.410] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
okay

**[05:29:13.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
ma

**[05:29:15.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
'am Eunice this is for the period covering

**[05:29:20.890] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
2017 to 2025, your honor.

**[05:29:26.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly identify the document if that is the same document you were referring to earlier.

**[05:29:30.960] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Before that, madam witness, before you identify, sorry. Madam witness, ma'am, sorry. Ilan po yung bank accounts ng ating vice president sa branch po ninyo?

**[05:29:42.620] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
With San Pedro de Val branch, we only have one payroll account.

**[05:29:46.820] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And yung one payroll account na yun, yung mga documents na binanggit nyo, yung tatlong klase. Movement of payroll, withdrawal slips, and certificate of astounding balances correspond to that account. Is that correct?

**[05:30:00.000] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright,

**[05:30:01.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
so you may now proceed to check kung yung movement of payroll ba na binabanggit niyo, na sinabit niya sa atin, ayan din ang nandyan.

**[05:30:46.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Defense marking D, Roman numeral number 2, dash 8, dash 3, dash 2, dash 1, dash 3, LBP as well.

**[05:30:54.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you again, Your Honor.

**[05:31:07.530] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
For the record, Your Honor, the witness is intently perusing the documents as instructed, Your Honor.

**[05:31:14.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam

**[05:31:49.390] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Witness, have you perused that document?

**[05:31:51.230] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes,

**[05:31:51.550] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor.

**[05:31:51.930] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
So, what is the relation of those documents, movement of payroll, to the one that you mentioned you submitted to Donorable Court?

**[05:32:02.270] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
That was the document, Your Honor.

**[05:32:05.150] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And in the documents, I would have wanted to approach the witness, Your Honor, but my microphone is not working. In the document, Madam Witness, there is a certification.

**[05:32:19.270] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
The assisting counsel can confront the witness with the certification contained in the lower portion, Your Honor.

**[05:33:05.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
In the lower portion, rightmost portion of this document that you've identified, there is a signature about the name of AVP Eunice Sumatra. Whose signature is this?

**[05:33:21.350] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
That is my signature, your honor.

**[05:33:23.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And do you confirm madam witness that in all the pages of This document, the same signature appears.

**[05:33:32.150] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
I confirm that in all of the 21 pages, it's the same signature. It's my signature, Your Honor.

**[05:33:38.770] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And I was about to ask whose signature is this, but you've already mentioned that it's your signature. Alright. For the record, Your Honor, the document that was identified by the witness is previously marked as Exhibit P-2-8-3-1-3- Sorry. P Roman numeral 2-8-3-2-1-3-LBP

**[05:34:09.260] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
consisting of 21 pages and

**[05:34:16.660] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
for the record it is also commonly marked by the defense as P-2 Roman numeral 2 D-R2-8-3-2-1-3-LDP for the same number of pages. Now, Madam Witness, I am showing you now the withdrawal slips that you've mentioned, that

**[05:34:52.960] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
you submitted to the court. Kindly go over these withdrawal slips if you can, please.

**[05:36:58.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What

**[05:36:59.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
was the question?

**[05:37:00.720] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I was just asking the witness to go through the withdrawal slips. I am under the process of authenticating the same, your honor.

**[05:37:10.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And this is just, hasn't she already authenticated the entire exhibit?

**[05:37:16.110] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
No, Your Honor, that was just

**[05:37:17.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
for the movement payroll, Your Honor.

**[05:37:24.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay, so this is for the withdrawal slips

**[05:37:27.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
and

**[05:37:28.360] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
then the third would be the maintaining balances or outstanding balances.

**[05:37:32.520] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:37:40.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
But

**[05:37:40.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
this is still part of the 21 pages, correct?

**[05:37:45.440] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I do not think so, Your Honor. I think the 21 pages only pertains to the movement, the movement payroll, Your Honor.

**[05:37:57.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The payroll? Just the payroll?

**[05:37:59.920] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes,

**[05:38:00.080] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor.

**[05:38:00.540] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, upon perusal of the documents, Your Honor, these are not all withdrawal slips, Your Honor.

**[05:38:09.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Which one? Now the chair is confused. You only have one marking consisting of 21 pages for this witness. Are you telling me there's another separate pre-marked document for withdrawals?

**[05:38:26.240] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
No, the 21 pages that was identified a while ago. which the witness confirmed was only pertaining to the payroll. Right now, Your Honor, the witness was perusing a series of documents for withdrawal slips, Your Honor.

**[05:38:47.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
As Attorney CJ said, it's not all withdrawals. Attorney CJ?

**[05:38:51.520] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes,

**[05:38:51.800] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, correct.

**[05:38:52.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So what would be included aside from withdrawals in that document?

**[05:38:55.540] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, there are withdrawal slips, check deposit slips,

**[05:39:00.180] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
A painted order document and the like, Your Honor.

**[05:39:07.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, not just withdrawal slips?

**[05:39:09.600] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor. So, we object to the question for being misleading, Your Honor.

**[05:39:17.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
It was based on the witnesses' answer earlier.

**[05:39:20.230] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor. That was about to respond.

**[05:39:22.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ma'am Eunice, ba't hindi lang po withdrawal ang laman nito tulad ng sinabi niyo kanina?

**[05:39:26.590] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor, my apologies po. Meron po kaming nasamang check deposit slips, Your Honor.

**[05:39:34.640] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
That was

**[05:39:35.620] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
submitted also to this honorable court, Your Honor.

**[05:39:40.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That was also submitted?

**[05:39:42.020] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes.

**[05:39:42.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
In the general category of withdrawals?

**[05:39:47.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Tatlo lang po kasi binanggit niyo kanina eh. Payroll,

**[05:39:50.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
withdrawal,

**[05:39:50.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
and

**[05:39:51.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
outstanding

**[05:39:51.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
balances.

**[05:39:51.950] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yeah, I forgot, Your Honor.

**[05:39:54.910] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Precisely, Your Honor, then now the introduction of these documents would lack foundation.

**[05:40:00.950] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Not really, Your Honor.

**[05:40:02.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So kindly, kindly correct, allow me, counsels. So kindly clarify, Attorney, Ma'am Eunice, yung naunan niyo po identify ay payroll,

**[05:40:11.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ito mong

**[05:40:12.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
pangalawa

**[05:40:13.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
ay

**[05:40:13.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
withdrawals and what else?

**[05:40:15.770] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
On us check deposits, Your Honor, the deposit slip and the image of the cheque, Your Honor.

**[05:40:21.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What

**[05:40:22.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
cheque?

**[05:40:22.750] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
The on us cheque, Your Honor.

**[05:40:24.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What does on us?

**[05:40:26.130] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
The cheque that was deposited, Your Honor.

**[05:40:30.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay. Ano pa po ang kasama nung kategoryang iyan?

**[05:40:34.630] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Iyan po, Your Honor.

**[05:40:36.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Iyan na yan?

**[05:40:36.370] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Apo.

**[05:40:37.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay.

**[05:40:49.970] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
So

**[05:40:50.490] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, dun po sa mga nabanggit ninyo, ano po yung relasyon, dun sa na-identify po ninyo, ano po yung relasyon yan sa mga documents or withdrawal slips and yung nabanggit nyo pang ibang documents na sinubmit nyo sa court na to?

**[05:41:07.820] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
What is the relation of those documents that you've just identified?

**[05:41:10.880] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Those documents substantiate the movement of the account.

**[05:41:16.180] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Ano? What I mean is that...

**[05:41:17.820] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Objection, your honor. She already answered the question.

**[05:41:21.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That's the

**[05:41:22.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
answer of the witness. Ask another question, counsel.

**[05:41:24.980] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright. So doon po, as namin nyo kanina... Okay, thank you, your honor. Diyan po sa mga documents na yan, meron pong withdrawal slips, meron pong checks, unasked checks.

**[05:41:40.670] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
At nabanggit po ninyo na yan yung mga sinubmit ninyo. Tama po ba? Napansin ko din po dun sa mga dokumentong yan, meron po sa baba na certified copy na nakasulat. At meron pong pirma sa taas ng pangalan. Ano po yung pangalan na nakasulat doon?

**[05:41:58.790] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered.

**[05:42:00.690] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I haven't asked that question, Your Honor.

**[05:42:03.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
This is for a different document that we understand, Attorney CJ.

**[05:42:06.780] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
So, anong po? Kanino pong pangalan yung nakasulat doon below the certified true copy portion?

**[05:42:12.180] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Okay. So, your honor, yung withdrawal slips po na sinubmit namin does not all happen or transacted in San Pedro Davao branch. So, I only certified, I only signed doon po sa mga documents na doon tina-

**[05:42:33.110] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Doon po

**[05:42:33.630] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
nangyari yung transaction sa San Pedro Davao Branch. Meron po mga withdrawal slips, your honor, na iba pong branch ang nag-certify.

**[05:42:45.660] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
That's fine, your honor. But for those that have, that bear a signature, the certified above the name, what name again was that? Under the certified true copy. Yung mga meron lang pong certification, anong pangalan yung nandoon?

**[05:43:00.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
At

**[05:43:01.320] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
sa taas po nun, may signature. Kaninong signature po yan?

**[05:43:04.880] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Signature ko po, Your Honor.

**[05:43:06.320] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, Madam Witness.

**[05:43:10.490] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Now, Madam Witness, I would ask the assisting counsel to confront you now with the Certificate of Outstanding Balances which you mentioned. Tama po ba yan? Tama yung word, tama yung description?

**[05:43:26.940] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:43:28.120] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
May I request for the marking, Your Honor?

**[05:43:33.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That's what I was about to ask. Also, the marking for the withdrawals. Do you have a marking already?

**[05:43:38.300] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
We have,

**[05:43:39.200] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, but allow me to check it with us.

**[05:43:42.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I don't have it with me. I don't have a pre-marked document for that. Ilang pages po yung withdrawal at yung mga checks, Ma'am Eunice?

**[05:43:55.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ma'am Eunice, yung kategoriya po yan, ilang pages po yan?

**[05:43:59.620] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Permission to approach the witness, Your Honor?

**[05:44:01.140] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Can

**[05:44:01.560] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
I have the, Your Honor? May I be allowed?

**[05:44:05.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am,

**[05:44:06.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you may.

**[05:44:08.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
This is already, according to attorney James, this is separate from the 21 pages.

**[05:44:13.250] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
For the

**[05:44:15.190] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
record, your honor, the marking of this document is, this were previously marked as P-2, P-Roman numeral 2, 8-3-2-1-4-LBP. A corresponding marking is also made by the defense.

**[05:44:39.140] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Exhibit D-2-8-3-2-1-4-LBP. Consisting of...

**[05:44:51.050] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
For

**[05:45:09.780] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
the

**[05:45:18.260] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
record, Your Honor, the witness is double checking her submissions.

**[05:45:24.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That's supposed to be what? 12 pages?

**[05:45:28.560] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
12 pages, Your Honor.

**[05:45:30.220] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright.

**[05:45:45.680] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, Madam Witness.

**[05:45:51.700] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Now,

**[05:45:54.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, we will be confronting you with the Certificate

**[05:46:05.320] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
of Outstanding Balances that you've mentioned that you've submitted to the Honorable Court. Kindly go over these documents and peruse them if you can, please.

**[05:46:15.480] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, may I request again for the marking?

**[05:46:18.410] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
We will do so in a bit, Your Honor.

**[05:46:21.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
While the witness is perusing it, allow the court, if the court is correct. It will be P-2-8-3-2-1-5-LBP consisting of 26 pages?

**[05:46:34.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, confirming that, Your Honor.

**[05:46:36.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And on the part of the respondent, D-RN-2-8-3-2-1-5-LBP. Would that be correct, Attorney CJ?

**[05:46:47.640] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Correct, Your Honor.

**[05:46:49.150] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, at this point, Your Honor, these are based on the records that we have coming directly from the Senate. But what we have here right now is only the first page of the exhibit that you've mentioned. So, given that this is the first time that we've checked this document, Your Honor, allow us a bit more leeway to check the other remaining pages of this document to complete the authenticating process, Your Honor.

**[05:47:10.330] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, if I may, this is precisely my point, Your Honor. They don't even have the documents to be identified.

**[05:47:16.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
It's

**[05:47:17.020] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
with the court, Your Honor.

**[05:47:17.980] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor. But please allow me to finish.

**[05:47:20.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Go

**[05:47:21.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
ahead.

**[05:47:22.480] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, precisely this is why I am asking for the proper procedure of identification and authentication because they don't even have the documents. And their reasoning that it is with the court is of no moment, Your Honor. That is not a reason for not being able or not having documents. For the witness to identify and authenticate.

**[05:47:47.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Duly noted, counsel. It will be added in the manifestation in connection with this issue.

**[05:47:53.310] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Thank you, Your Honor.

**[05:47:54.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The Clerk of Court informs me that the copies were given to the prosecution already.

**[05:48:00.510] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:48:02.130] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
However...

**[05:48:02.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Not just the first page.

**[05:48:04.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes. That's why, Your Honor, however, this is the first time that we're producing the documents right now, Your Honor, as it was handed to us immediately before this. So allow us a bit of leeway in order to check all this, Your Honor.

**[05:48:15.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Just have her identify it. Again, as stated by Senator Judge Lacson earlier, we're talking of relatively small amounts consisting of payroll. In fact, less than payroll.

**[05:48:35.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
As maintaining balances.

**[05:49:05.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
to the one that you've mentioned. And what do you call this document, if you can?

**[05:49:10.940] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor, this document, based on the series of account numbers, are accounts of Davao Recto Branch, which is not my account, which is not my branch, rather. But I am familiar with the signature of the branch head.

**[05:49:31.610] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor,

**[05:49:31.950] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
there was

**[05:49:32.290] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
no question.

**[05:49:32.930] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
May I ask that it be?

**[05:49:35.770] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
It

**[05:49:35.850] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
was the answer of the witness, Your Honor. There was no question.

**[05:49:39.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, stricken off, kindly be responsive, Ma'am Eunice, only to what we just asked of you. Kindly proceed, Attorney James.

**[05:49:47.210] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Okay, Madam Witness, relax lang po. Relax lang po. Medyo ano lang talaga yung authentication process, Ma'am.

**[05:49:56.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
So, sabi ko nga po, ito pong nabanggit ninyo, yung year-end balance na in-identify nyo. And I'm also showing it to our

**[05:50:05.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
assisting defense lawyer, your honor. So, eto po, nakasulat dito, year-end balances of accounts from December 31, 2007 to December 2025. Nakasulat po dito, prepared by Marilu Mequilla at noted by Raquel U. de la Serna, branch head. Eto pong dito sa noted by, above the name Raquel U. de la Serna. Kanina pong signature ito kung alam niyo po?

**[05:50:38.000] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Signature po yan ni branch head Raquel U. de la Serna, your honor.

**[05:50:42.700] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
At paano naman, paano niyo po nalaman na signature niya yun?

**[05:50:46.780] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
We are familiar with the signature of the other branch officers because we maintain signatures of the authorized signatories of other branches for us to verify especially when they issue a manager's check and Of course, I've been with the bank and Ms. Raquel also with the bank for so long. So, we have these documents that we see each other's signature, Your Honor.

**[05:51:17.760] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank

**[05:51:18.120] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
you, Madam Witness. Because you're confirming these documents, may I know, Mr. Madam Witness, kung ilang pages po ba itong sinubmit niyo? Or ito lang po ba yun? Would you know?

**[05:51:30.770] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Hindi. Hindi kasi ako nagsubmit nito sir.

**[05:51:33.520] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Okay, that's fine.

**[05:51:35.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
But

**[05:51:36.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
could you confirm that this came from your bank?

**[05:51:39.270] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
For land bank, you mean? Not for San Pedro branch.

**[05:51:42.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
But from land bank?

**[05:51:43.510] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Land bank. I know Ma'am Raquel.

**[05:51:45.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Okay, that's enough Madam Witness. For the record, Your Honor, this is Exhibit P-2-8-3-4-2-5-LBP, a common exhibit of the defense, again. D-R2-8-3-4-2-5-LPP

**[05:52:04.460] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Noted,

**[05:52:07.750] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your

**[05:52:08.570] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Honor.

**[05:52:08.990] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness,

**[05:52:10.010] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I am about to end. Other than these documents, meron po ba kayong sinubmit sa Honorable Court kung meron man? Doon sa mga na-identify niyo, meron pa po ba?

**[05:52:22.510] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yung year-end balances issued by our branch, Your Honor.

**[05:52:28.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Okay.

**[05:52:29.150] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Sige.

**[05:52:29.770] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Allow us to get a copy of that through the copies that we got from the court.

**[05:53:00.690] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Can you just look for the

**[05:53:02.410] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
year

**[05:53:03.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
-end Madam Witness that you've mentioned?

**[05:53:08.280] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Do you

**[05:53:30.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
have it with you now?

**[05:53:31.370] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor, I also have submitted this bank certificate of...

**[05:53:40.210] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
of the companies, name of the companies, which is certified.

**[05:53:44.110] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Before the witness answers, the prosecution manifested that they were giving her a specific document, but in fact, they had given her a different document not mentioned by the witness. This is precisely what I'm saying, Your Honor. The authentication and identification process is of

**[05:54:06.810] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
vital importance.

**[05:54:09.180] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, just to, you know, disallay any issues about that.

**[05:54:13.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We're talking of outstanding balances, right?

**[05:54:15.120] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor. And as I mentioned...

**[05:54:18.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So what

**[05:54:18.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
are you referring to to be different, Atty. CJ?

**[05:54:20.800] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your

**[05:54:20.880] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Honor, she was just handed a certification. which was different from what the question elicited, Your Honor.

**[05:54:29.100] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
No, Your Honor.

**[05:54:29.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I believe the three categories of documents were payroll, withdrawal, which she clarified, and certification as the outstanding balances.

**[05:54:38.500] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:54:39.080] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
That was not

**[05:54:39.940] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
one of the...

**[05:54:40.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Is that what she has now? Attorney James?

**[05:54:43.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
No, Your Honor. If the good counsel was Lisa Nawalagong, my question was that. I'm giving her the documents, Your Honor, that we got from the court, and I was asking her to... Look which one of those documents for the year-end balance. And I would only proceed...

**[05:54:57.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So she has not yet pointed it out?

**[05:54:58.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Exactly, Your Honor.

**[05:54:59.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay.

**[05:55:00.360] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And just to counter-manifest, Your Honor, lest we let it slide, Your Honor. As I mentioned a while ago, the witness has confirmed the documents to be authentic again and again. And that only lends credence to my argument a while ago. That is not even a genuine issue to begin with. But nonetheless, Your Honor, we will just proceed. Madam Witness.

**[05:55:23.580] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor,

**[05:55:23.940] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
if I

**[05:55:24.080] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
may before that. Of course not, Your Honor. This is, so many problems have arisen in the process of authentication of the prosecution. And he insists that it is not important. And yet, the reality provides otherwise. Which problem was that? Continue.

**[05:55:46.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Councils, please. Again, let's not belabor the point. Let's not make it more difficult than it already is.

**[05:55:52.860] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[05:55:54.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Let's move on. Ma'am Eunice,

**[05:55:58.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
may

**[05:55:58.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
binigay po ba sa inyo yung dokumento? Yung baboy yung tinutukoy yung dokumento kanina?

**[05:56:02.090] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, are you okay? Medyo nahirap. Inupo kayo ng tubig. Di po kami nag-aaway. Talagang ganun maglambingan yung mga abogado.

**[05:56:14.650] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor, my apology for the second time.

**[05:56:19.530] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
I issued a certificate also, apart from what I have mentioned. I also issued a certificate of 20 corporations.

**[05:56:41.350] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
I issued a certificate that these companies do not have an account with Land Bank San Pedro Branch. I acknowledge this certification, Your Honor.

**[05:56:52.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So that's not... with respect to the outstanding balances

**[05:56:55.420] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
yes your

**[05:56:56.100] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
honor

**[05:56:56.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
okay so that's not what the what the council is referring to okay so

**[05:56:59.400] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
yeah kindly go over those documents madam witness uh and if you can find the document that you've just mentioned a while ago so we can authenticate it

**[05:57:08.380] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
your

**[05:57:08.920] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
honor

**[05:57:09.100] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
this is improper procedure handing the witness a stack of documents and trying to find which one she actually issued Cannot be done, your honor. Can I object to this, your honor?

**[05:57:23.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel asked for leeway, attorney CJ. The court is inclined to give it, given that he may have relied on the leniency of the court with this witness.

**[05:57:41.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, the court will give him leeway. Kindly give him leeway as well, attorney CJ.

**[05:57:46.580] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
I

**[05:57:46.780] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
will, your honor. In this regard.

**[05:58:49.460] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, for the record, the witness was unable to locate the document asked for.

**[05:58:56.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
This is on the outstanding balances.

**[05:58:58.880] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Correct,

**[05:58:59.460] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor.

**[05:58:59.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
That's fine, Your Honor. Just those documents that you've mentioned, ano yung mga nandun sa documents na yun, Madam Witness?

**[05:59:06.320] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your

**[05:59:06.440] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Honor, objection vague.

**[05:59:09.560] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
That's not vague, Your Honor.

**[05:59:10.740] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
The militias was just handed a clump of documents. Your

**[05:59:13.960] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Honor, exactly. Ano yung mga nandun sa

**[05:59:17.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I don't know how one would answer that.

**[05:59:21.140] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Well, let's try, Your Honor. Maybe the witness can.

**[05:59:24.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The witness indeed mentioned certification on outstanding balances.

**[05:59:33.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright, Your Honor, I will...

**[05:59:35.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly

**[05:59:36.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
answer if you know, Madam Witness, Ms. Eunice. We're referring to the outstanding balances certification that you issued.

**[05:59:48.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Documents are being handed to the witness again. Are these the documents you're referring to, Ms. Eunice?

**[05:59:55.000] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
I

**[05:59:58.120] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
have not seen the certificate.

**[06:00:03.060] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
In here are the withdrawal slips, the one I mentioned earlier, the checked images.

**[06:00:11.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You

**[06:00:12.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
don't have, Madam Miss Eunice, you don't have to give us a blow-by-blow account of what you're seeing, just if you've seen the certification and understanding balances.

**[06:01:21.120] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor. I do not see the certificate of outstanding balance, Your Honor.

**[06:01:26.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I don't understand, Attorney James.

**[06:01:30.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Indeed, you're using the court's copy.

**[06:01:32.920] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:01:33.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
But you pre-marked this document. Why can't you simply refer to the pre-marked document and show it to the witness?

**[06:01:40.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor, allow me, Your Honor. The statement of the witness pertaining to the certificate of outstanding balance is...

**[06:01:48.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, you've had a copy of these documents. Both parties have had copies

**[06:01:52.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
of these documents.

**[06:01:54.230] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
It's not among the documents, your honor. But because that was the answer of the witness, the rules would require me to... It's

**[06:02:01.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
not among the documents that was subpoenaed by this court?

**[06:02:04.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, your honor. No, no, it was not submitted by this bank, your honor. But because it was answered that way by the witness, I was obliged to follow that line of questioning and perhaps... At this point, determined that it was indeed not included. And I have to do this again and again because I have to go through the answers of the witness, Your Honor. And this is the process that we have to go through.

**[06:02:27.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So are

**[06:02:27.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you done?

**[06:02:28.810] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:02:29.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Are you done showing and proving that it's not one of the documents submitted by the land bank?

**[06:02:34.750] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:02:35.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Those standing balances?

**[06:02:36.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:02:37.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly proceed.

**[06:02:40.220] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
With that, Your Honor, that would be all the documents submitted by the land bank, Your Honor. And we will land bank San Pedro. And we will be dispensing with Ma'am Eunice this afternoon, Your Honor.

**[06:02:55.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You're done with your direct?

**[06:02:56.610] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:02:58.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I hope you don't have any cross, Atty. CJ, do you?

**[06:03:01.690] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
I do, Your Honor.

**[06:03:03.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I was afraid of that. You may proceed, Atty. CJ.

**[06:03:07.870] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Good

**[06:03:08.250] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
afternoon, Ma'am.

**[06:03:12.050] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Ma'am, you're appearing today only as the representative of the Land Bank of the Philippines, San Pedro branch.

**[06:03:18.070] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:03:19.150] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
This is in Davao City, correct?

**[06:03:20.610] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:03:22.150] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
And your testimony is limited only to bank records, correct?

**[06:03:25.890] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:03:27.110] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
How long have you held this position?

**[06:03:29.810] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
As branch manager, for 15 years.

**[06:03:33.470] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
15 years.

**[06:03:34.310] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
But for Land Bank San Pedro, it's two and a half years, Your Honor.

**[06:03:40.170] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Thank you. Ma'am, the Land Bank of the Philippines is a government financial institution, correct?

**[06:03:47.370] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:03:48.570] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
And

**[06:03:49.090] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
it provides banking services to government agencies as well as individual depositors.

**[06:03:55.410] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes,

**[06:03:55.830] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor.

**[06:03:56.110] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor,

**[06:03:56.290] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
objection. What

**[06:03:57.030] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
is the relevance of this question, Your Honor? I have to object on relevance, Your Honor.

**[06:04:01.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Well, she already answered, counsel.

**[06:04:04.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Miss Eunice, pakihintay po ng kahit ilang segundo lang.

**[06:04:09.910] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Sorry, your honor.

**[06:04:10.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Pulitin ko po, hindi naman po sila nag-aaway. Hindi niyo po yan kasalanan, baga man kagagawan niyo, pero... Biro lang po.

**[06:04:22.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly just give a few seconds for the opposing counsel to object if he has any before answering.

**[06:04:27.210] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes,

**[06:04:27.430] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
sir.

**[06:04:27.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, ma'am.

**[06:04:28.750] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Ma'am, your services include deposit accounts and payroll services, among others, correct?

**[06:04:36.490] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, your honor.

**[06:04:38.230] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Ma'am, this...

**[06:04:42.060] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
This account number 1477-0989-98 belongs to the Vice President Sara Duterte, correct?

**[06:04:53.760] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Your Honor, can I refer to my record?

**[06:04:59.610] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Can I be allowed, Your Honor?

**[06:05:01.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, ma'am, you may.

**[06:05:16.760] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:05:19.600] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
I confirm, Your Honor.

**[06:05:21.750] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Ma'am, her salary from the government is credited to this amount. Would you know this?

**[06:05:28.950] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Her

**[06:05:29.650] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
salary from the government is credited to this account?

**[06:05:32.430] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
Yeah, the payroll, your honor.

**[06:05:34.290] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
These

**[06:05:39.040] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
credits, where these amounts are coming from, can be seen by the San Pedro branch, correct?

**[06:05:48.390] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
If the validation is CM payroll, your honor, it's the agency who will prepare the payroll and we will just upload in our system the payroll.

**[06:06:02.780] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
The amounts that will be credited to the employees, Your Honor.

**[06:06:07.040] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
But that can be seen?

**[06:06:08.600] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
If

**[06:06:09.120] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
we will check it one by one, Your Honor.

**[06:06:12.640] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
It can be?

**[06:06:13.820] Eunice C. Sumatra**  
It can be.

**[06:06:16.020] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
And the balance shown here that you said you identified, is the amount remaining after the credits and debits?

**[06:06:24.960] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Objection. Sorry, Your Honor, I have to object. This is beyond the scope of the debit examination. The prosecution... has presented this witness only to authenticate because we want to fast track and to expedite the authentication of all these documents, Your Honor, including other banks, Your Honor. So if we're going to have, well, understand that there is leeway in cross-examination, but there cannot be an unbridled authority to ask anything and everything under the sun. Otherwise, Your Honor, we might waste...

**[06:06:56.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
It also

**[06:06:57.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
opens up the possibility of attorney CJ asking the wrong question and eliciting an answer that he may not desire given the limited scope of the testimony.

**[06:07:08.270] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Correct Your

**[06:07:08.530] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Honor.

**[06:07:08.810] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
However, he asked and identified withdrawal slips, Your Honor.

**[06:07:14.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes,

**[06:07:14.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
it was part of what was identified. But anyway, again, at Attorney CJ's peril, you may proceed, Attorney CJ.

**[06:07:23.120] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
We submit, Your Honor.

**[06:07:23.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Again, given the limited testimony of the witness.

**[06:07:30.230] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
No further questions, Your Honor.

**[06:07:33.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Any redirect?

**[06:07:35.310] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
I was about, Your Honor, but I'll just let it go, Your Honor. No, redirect, Your Honor. Thank you.

**[06:07:41.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I guess the manifestation of Senator Judge Lacson would apply to the Senator judges, if I'm not mistaken. Given that it is payroll, you're

**[06:07:52.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
giving me a thumbs up sign. Senator Judge Erwin, not raising your hand, I hope. Thank you. Ma'am, salamat po. Ma'am Eunice, sa inyong pagdalo, sa inyong panahon, pasensya, pagbiyahe patungo dito at pagsagot sa katanungan ng mga magkabilang partido. Thank you for your participation and your patience. Thank you, ma'am, your excuse.

**[06:08:17.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Let's do one more. Let's finish land bank at the very least.

**[06:08:22.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I presume this is no longer payroll, attorney James?

**[06:08:25.180] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, your honor.

**[06:08:26.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly have your assisting counsels prepare the documents for this witness.

**[06:08:30.880] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
On that

**[06:08:31.360] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
note, your honor, in order to make it more smooth or

**[06:08:34.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
smoother,

**[06:08:35.080] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
can we ask for a short recess, your honor, so that we can arrange everything, including the documents that we

**[06:08:40.320] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
just checked?

**[06:08:40.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, chair

**[06:08:40.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
declares a 15-minute recess.

**[06:08:42.320] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Thank you, your honor.

**[06:50:57.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the information of the senator judges and the parties, during the recess, the presiding officer undertook to discuss the matter at hand with the council for the parties with a view to making the process less arduous and painful. And we arrived at an agreement which the chair would like

**[06:51:28.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
To make of record,

**[06:51:33.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
before we call on the next witness, by the way, for the information of the body, we will only be calling one more witness for today, the other representative from Land Bank, and shall call it a day. We will try the new arrangement with this witness and proceed hopefully already like clockwork tomorrow with this new procedure.

**[06:51:58.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, kindly call your next witness, rather, Atty. James, so that we can try to adopt our procedure for this next witness.

**[06:52:07.830] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:52:13.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That is Ms. Raquel de la Serna, correct?

**[06:52:16.370] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:52:17.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The

**[06:52:17.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Clerk of Court, through those eyes, directed to kindly situate Ms. Raquel de la Serna to the witness stand.

**[06:52:24.670] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor, with regard to the earlier manifestation of

**[06:52:30.640] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Atty. James, we will just adopt the objections to his offer,

**[06:52:36.340] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your Honor.

**[06:52:37.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, it'll be the same offer. If it's the same offer, it's the same objections and manifestations.

**[06:52:42.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor. I

**[06:52:43.320] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
confirm that it's the same offer, Your Honor.

**[06:52:44.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So,

**[06:52:45.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
let it be made of record that it is the same offer for this witness as with the first witness, Witness Eunice. And for the record also, it'll be the same objections, reservations, and their manifestations on the part of the respondent for this new witness, Ms. Raquel.

**[06:53:11.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ms. Raquel, bago po kayo mo po, pakisundan lamang po, pakinggan yung panunumpang bibigkasin ng Clerk of Court at sumagot na lamang po kayo sa dulo ng inyong karampatang sagot. The Clerk of Court will please administer the oath.

**[06:53:31.260] Atty. Marivic Laurel Garcia**  
Kindly raise your right hand. You, Raquel de la Serna, do swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God.

**[06:53:48.360] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly answer through the mic, Ma'am Raquel.

**[06:53:51.510] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes,

**[06:53:51.970] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Your

**[06:53:52.170] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Honor.

**[06:53:52.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Ma

**[06:53:53.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
'am. Kindly sit down.

**[06:53:55.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Naunawaan po niyo, Ma'am Raquel, yung inyong pinanumpahan? Kaugnay sa testimonyang bibigay po niyo sa hukumang ito?

**[06:54:01.760] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[06:54:03.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, ma'am. Now, before we proceed, the offer has been made and the manifestation and comment on the offer has already been made already of record by both parties for this witness. The court would like to state the following.

**[06:54:19.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The records to be identified by this witness, limited by what is contained in the inventory of documents. that were signed by the parties on various dates were produced directly by land bank which has natural and regular custody of them pursuant to the subpoenas issued by the court. They were officially delivered to the court without passing through an interested party or private intermediary. The clerk recorded, inventoried, safeguarded, and reproduced the submissions for use in these proceedings. Taken together, the institutional returns to the subpoenas, the documented receipt, and protected custody of the source records, and the court supervised reproduction establishes the provenance of such records. The court is mindful. of Republic v. Marcos, GR 17-1701, which held that PCGG's collection and custody of private documents did not convert them into public records or without more authenticate them, particularly where only unauthenticated copies were presented.

**[06:55:49.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Hence, the Court relies not on custody alone but the records' direct production by the institutional custodians pursuant to the subpoena Their documented receipt and safekeeping by the clerk of court, their availability for inspection, and their court-supervised reproduction. Collectively, these circumstances establish records of provenance only, identity, and integrity, as well as fidelity of the copies. In addition, under Rule 4, Section 1 of the Rules and Evidence, an electronic document is regarded as equivalent of an original under the original document rule when its print When it is a printout of other or other output readable by sight or other means and shown to reflect the data accurately. To the extent that any record independently qualifies as an official record and is entitled to a presumption of regularity, that presumption is rebuttable and does not establish the truth or accuracy of every entry. Upon a specific substantial showing of fraud, falsification, material alteration, irregularity, incompleteness, palpable mistake, Unreliable method of preparation of breaking the chain of custody or lack of personal knowledge or material inconsistency with other evidence. The respondent or any other party may challenge the record's admission, seek the exclusion or limitation of the disputed entries, and request the appearance of appropriate custodian or other qualified witness as the case may be during cross-examination or during. The formal offer of evidence. In other words, we are not depriving the respondent of any of its available rights to question the authenticity of the documents but are simply trying to abbreviate the proceedings if there are no allegations nor claims of fraud, palpable mistake in the preparation of the documents in order to abbreviate the proceedings on these witnesses which are similarly situated.

**[06:57:51.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, kindly proceed accordingly, Atty. James, and let's see how this goes.

**[06:57:56.470] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Noted, Your Honor. Under the same offer, permission to proceed, Your Honor. Madam Witness,

**[06:58:01.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I'm sorry, Atty. James, with your indulgence. The clerk is instructed to kindly inform the representatives of the other banks that they may rest for the day. Imbis na maghintay pa po sila, they can rest for the day.

**[06:58:17.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
They're still covered by a subpoena for tomorrow. And to kindly inform them to be here for subpoena at 10 a.m. And hopefully, we shall be able to go through most if not all of the witnesses by tomorrow. The Clerk of Court is so directed.

**[06:58:38.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Permission to proceed, Your Honor. Thank you, Pa. Good afternoon, Madam Witness.

**[06:58:44.150] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Good

**[06:58:44.430] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
afternoon, sir.

**[06:58:45.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
So, for the record, could you provide us your full name, designation, and what branch or bank are you representing, please?

**[06:58:55.650] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Good afternoon, everyone. I am Raquel [unclear] Dela Cerna, branch manager of Davao R. Magsaysay, Land Bank Davao R. Magsaysay branch.

**[06:59:06.840] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And as the branch manager of Davao R. Magsaysay

**[06:59:13.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
of

**[06:59:13.620] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Landbank, what are your primary functions and responsibilities?

**[06:59:19.720] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Being the branch manager of a particular branch, I am responsible to overlook or to supervise the operation of the branch as well as make sure that the Internal control or the guidelines, the policies and guidelines of the bank is strictly implemented. However, much of my work is on the marketing side, sir. We have a branch operation officer and branch service officer who directly, who have a direct supervision of all the daily transactions of the branch.

**[06:59:52.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Alright. Based on your records that you've submitted to the court and this pursuant to the ruling of the How many accounts does the Vice President or Atty. Manasseh Scarpio have in your branch?

**[07:00:12.980] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
We had two accounts of PVSARA which are now closed and one of Atty. Manases Carpio.

**[07:00:23.680] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
You mentioned that the two accounts of the Vice President are now closed. How about the third one of Atty. Carpio? What is the status of that account?

**[07:00:33.830] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
The account of Atty. Manasseh is still current or active.

**[07:00:39.370] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
And for the record, could you just provide us the last four digits of that bank account for our reference?

**[07:00:48.410] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Can I look on my file, sir? Because I could not remember the number.

**[07:00:53.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may

**[07:00:53.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
do so, ma'am.

**[07:01:03.790] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
The last four number of Atty. Manases is 2730.

**[07:01:12.030] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Madam Witness, based on your records, what is the year-end balance of the account of Atty. Manases Carpio for 2022?

**[07:01:24.750] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
I have here in my record sir, for year end 2022, 505,517.35 centavos.

**[07:01:33.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Can you go slowly madam?

**[07:01:34.370] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Sorry po.

**[07:01:36.370] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Year

**[07:01:37.620] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
end December 2022 is 505,517.35.

**[07:01:46.260] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
How about for the year 2023? What is the year-end balance of Atty. Carpio corresponding to his account ending with last digits 2730?

**[07:01:59.000] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
For year-end 2023, the last or the outstanding balance that time was 953,681.42.

**[07:02:07.860] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
How about for 2024? What is the year-end balance of This account that you've mentioned under the name of Atty. Carpio?

**[07:02:18.670] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
For 2024, sir, it was 115,824.20.

**[07:02:25.870] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Lastly, Madam Witness, for 2025, what is the year-end balance of this account based on your records?

**[07:02:34.450] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
For

**[07:02:35.030] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
2025, sir, it was 1,358,373.07.

**[07:02:44.870] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
That would be all for my direct examination, your honor.

**[07:02:48.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. CJ?

**[07:02:49.690] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
With this honorable court's

**[07:02:51.010] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
permission.

**[07:02:51.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed with your cross when you're ready.

**[07:02:53.630] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Good

**[07:02:54.400] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
afternoon, Ms. Dela Serna.

**[07:02:56.320] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Good afternoon, sir.

**[07:02:58.640] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Ma'am, you mentioned that you are in charge of the internal controls of your branch and you implement the policies of Land Back, correct?

**[07:03:10.100] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, your honor.

**[07:03:11.530] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
So, in the ordinary course

**[07:03:13.110] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
of banking practice, a person opening an account with the LBP must provide identifying information and documents required by the bank, correct?

**[07:03:24.870] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:03:25.890] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
The bank follows customer identification, KYC or Know Your Customer Procedures?

**[07:03:33.010] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:03:33.930] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
The bank maintains records identifying the account holder?

**[07:03:38.190] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:03:39.790] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
These records also identify the persons authorized to operate the account.

**[07:03:45.370] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:03:46.770] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
An individual account is different or distinct from a joint account, correct?

**[07:03:53.000] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:03:54.820] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Merely identifying someone as the depositor or the account holder's spouse on an information form or on your records does not automatically mean or make that person a joint account holder, correct?

**[07:04:11.490] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir.

**[07:04:13.100] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Being married to someone does not make the spouse an authorized signatory for that account, correct?

**[07:04:23.590] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
May I ask for, can you repeat the question sir? Sorry.

**[07:04:27.930] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Being married to an account holder does not make the spouse an authorized signatory for that account.

**[07:04:34.970] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Objection, Your Honor. It's both speculative and vague. There are too much possible answers to that, Your Honor. Perhaps the good counsel can be more specific, Your Honor.

**[07:04:44.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If

**[07:04:44.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the witness knows, counsel.

**[07:04:47.650] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Submitted, Your Honor.

**[07:04:48.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ma'am Raquel, alam niyo ba yung sagot sa katanungan niya?

**[07:04:52.970] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:04:53.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly answer.

**[07:04:56.460] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
These are two different or distinct individuals, sir.

**[07:04:59.520] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Correct.

**[07:05:03.520] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
You identified the account with number 0161-4627-30, correct?

**[07:05:18.930] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir. That's the account of attorney Carpio, sir.

**[07:05:21.690] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Correct.

**[07:05:25.170] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
And your bank, the LVP, maintains account information for each individual account holder. Correct?

**[07:05:33.510] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir.

**[07:05:35.330] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Statements and account notices are sent to the address or contact detail designated for that account.

**[07:05:42.430] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir.

**[07:05:43.660] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
You

**[07:05:44.300] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
do not send a

**[07:05:46.300] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
separate copy of notices to the account holder spouse, correct?

**[07:05:50.460] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir.

**[07:05:55.100] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
And you do not automatically notify the spouse whenever a deposit or a withdrawal is made, correct?

**[07:06:02.160] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir.

**[07:06:03.440] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Neither do you automatically inform the spouse of the account's balance at the end of the year, correct?

**[07:06:10.120] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:06:12.820] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
It is the LBP's practice whether the individual account holder is the husband or the wife. It doesn't matter, correct?

**[07:06:23.170] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Kahit yung lalaki or babae, it doesn't matter. Walang difference. Yun yung practice niyo po.

**[07:06:30.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The question is [unclear], counsel.

**[07:06:33.840] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
I withdraw your honor. In ordinary banking transactions, the LBP verifies a person's identity and authority before releasing confidential information on the account.

**[07:06:47.070] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Objection, Your Honor. I don't think that the witness is in the position to answer that. She is a branch manager. She is not presented here as a person who is well aware of internal controls at the national level or policy level of land bank, Your Honor. We might endanger the witness with her employment,

**[07:07:05.030] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Your Honor.

**[07:07:05.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Then she may answer along those lines if she doesn't know. She may answer too if she knows. Objection is overruled. Ma'am Raquel, kung alam niyo po yung sagot, sagutin niyo po. Pag hindi niyo po alam, sabihin niyo rin po.

**[07:07:18.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly repeat the question, Attorney CJ.

**[07:07:21.230] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Ma'am, in your practice, LBP verifies a person's identity and authority before releasing confidential account information, correct?

**[07:07:31.710] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:07:33.380] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Your bank would require the depositor or the account holder's written authorization before releasing the account information to a spouse, correct?

**[07:07:43.820] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
We require SPA instead sir, special power of attorney.

**[07:07:47.380] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Oh,

**[07:07:47.520] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
not just a written...

**[07:07:48.920] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Authorization, yes.

**[07:07:49.720] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Thank you.

**[07:07:50.180] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Not just

**[07:07:50.240] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
authorization sir.

**[07:07:51.320] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
So merely naming a spouse in the customer information sheet does not make that spouse a joint account holder, correct?

**[07:08:00.000] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir, unless they're specifically mentioned na mag-or sila or something.

**[07:08:04.820] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Thank you ma'am. A person does not automatically become an authorized signatory merely because he or she is married to that account holder, correct?

**[07:08:15.630] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir.

**[07:08:17.310] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Neither does the LBP automatically provide the spouse with access to the account through online banking, correct?

**[07:08:26.400] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Can you repeat the question please?

**[07:08:28.660] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Neither does the LBP automatically provide the spouse with access to the account through online banking, correct?

**[07:08:36.120] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes sir.

**[07:08:40.560] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Thus, marriage alone does not entitle a person to obtain the other spouse's account balance directly from the LVP. Correct?

**[07:08:48.440] Raquel U. Dela Cerna**  
Yes, sir.

**[07:08:49.320] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
No

**[07:08:58.390] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
further questions, Your Honor.

**[07:08:59.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Any redirect, Attorney James?

**[07:09:01.350] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
No redirect, Your Honor.

**[07:09:03.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
There have been no other questions. I take it there are no interjections from Senator Judges at this point?

**[07:09:10.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I take it you're waving your hands, not raising your hands.

**[07:09:21.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ma'am Raquel, you are excused. Maraming salamat po sa inyong oras, panahon, paumanin, mahinintay ninyo. Mas maaba po po yung antay kesa sa pag-testimonyo ninyo. Salamat po sa pagsagot ng

**[07:09:34.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
mga katanungan ng magkabilang partido. You're excused ma'am.

**[07:09:37.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That

**[07:09:38.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
was not so painful.

**[07:09:42.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You were saying something yesterday CJ about seeing your family? Do I remember correctly? Was it you or someone else?

**[07:09:51.330] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Not me, Your Honor. Attorney Vinluan, if I remember correctly.

**[07:09:54.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Ah, okay. Attorney Mark, I guess, was the one saying it. We can, we shall call it a day.

**[07:10:03.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Tomorrow, we hope to proceed in this similar fashion or manner with respect to the other bank officials and let's cross the bridge and reach the insurance companies if they're the same.

**[07:10:14.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[07:10:16.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Any other points you would like to raise, Attorney James?

**[07:10:21.750] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih**  
None from the prosecution, Your Honor.

**[07:10:23.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Attorney Sheila or Attorney CJ?

**[07:10:26.830] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
None from us, Your

**[07:10:27.890] Atty. Carlo Joaquin T. Narvasa**  
Honor.

**[07:10:28.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
In that case, the court shall call it a day. We are adjourned until tomorrow, October 7th at 10 in the morning wherein we will proceed with the remaining witnesses insofar as the banks and insurance companies are concerned. Trial is adjourned.