1 00:05:25,390 --> 00:05:28,130 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The sergeant at arms is directed to make a proclamation. 2 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:40,760 Alfredo Sotto Corpuz: All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the impeachment court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. 3 00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:50,530 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator-Judge Vicente C. Soto III. 4 00:05:53,740 --> 00:06:04,700 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: El Padre Nuestro, Almighty God, Great Architect of the Universe, we humbly come before you to ask for your forgiveness. 5 00:06:06,450 --> 00:06:26,000 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Patawarin niyo po kaming sa aming mga pagkakasala at pagkukulang. Mahal na Panginoon, ibukas mo ang aming mga damdamin sa mga katotohanan at imuhulat mo ang aming mga mata ng nabubulagan. In the name of 6 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,720 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. 7 00:06:30,370 --> 00:06:30,750 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Amen. 8 00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:32,680 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The Clerk of Court will now call the roll. 9 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:17,980 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Senator-Judge, Pangilinan, Senator-Judge, Sotto III, Senator-Judge, Tulfo Erwin, Senator-Judge, Tulfo Raffi, Senator-Judge, Villanueva, Senator-Judge, Villar Camil, Senator-Judge, Villar Marc, Senator-Judge, Zubiri, the Presiding Officer, Senator-Judge Escudero, the Senate President, Senator-Judge, Gachal Llano. 10 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:32,640 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: With 14 Senator-judges present, the Chair declares the presence of a quorum. In accordance with the Rules of Procedure on Impeachment Trials The chair now recognizes the duly elected presiding officer to preside over the proceedings of the impeachment court. 11 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:49,750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Mr. President. If there are no objections, we shall dispense with the reading of the October 1, 2025 Journal of the Senate sitting as an impeachment court and shall consider the same as approved. 12 00:07:53,090 --> 00:07:56,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The clerk of court will please call the case before the impeachment court. 13 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:02,380 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Case number 004-2026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Syrah Zimmerman Duterte. 14 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:12,840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before asking for the appearances of the parties, allow the Presiding Officer to address both the Court, the parties, and the public. 15 00:08:17,470 --> 00:08:23,090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Allow the Court to state for the record a short quote from Justice Sandra Dale Conner. 16 00:08:26,670 --> 00:09:22,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The justice system cannot function effectively when the professionals charged with administering it cannot even be polite to one another. The Chair understands that patience is wearing thin, tensions are running high, and tempers are beginning to fray. But we must not lose sight of our common purpose. Our duty is not to prevail over one another but to assist this Court in the fair and orderly administration of justice. This reminder applies not only to counsel present before this Court, under the brightest spotlight on the largest stage, but to every lawyer beyond this courtroom. Let all be reminded that Canon 2, Section 2 of the CIPRO requires every lawyer to deal with fellow members of the Bar with courtesy, civility, fairness, and candor. To non-lawyers, Justice Kennedy said it more aptly, quote, 17 00:09:25,190 --> 00:10:47,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: but it only survives in civility. That responsibility belongs to everyone touched by these proceedings. Counsel, non-counsels alike, parties, non-parties alike, witnesses and putative witnesses alike, public officials, commentators, and observers alike. Disagreement may be vigorous and criticism unsparing, but no cause is strengthened by contempt. No institution is preserved by conduct that strips another person of his or her dignity. Our duty is not to conquer one another in these proceedings, but to eliminate the truth and serve the cause of justice. Let the arguments be forceful but never personal. Let the contest be exacting but never degrading. And when these proceedings are concluded, let it be the law Not anger, not pride, nor applause. Be the final word. Kinikilala po ng presiding officer na sa yugtoy ito ng ating paglitis, medyo maikli na ang pasensya ng karamihan, medyo mataas ang emosyon ng ilan, at medyo naguumapaw ang galit, puot, at inis. Bugso ng anumang nakikita o napapanood nila sa mga pagdinig na ito. Subalit, hindi tayo pwede mawala ng loob sa ating ginagampanan tungkulin. Hindi tayo pwede. 18 00:10:59,450 --> 00:11:37,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We will be focused on our job at hand and that is to try and decide this impeachment case based on the evidence with justice and with fairness. We shall not be distracted nor detracted by the rantings or tantrums of anyone inside or outside this courtroom. Because at the end of the day, it's not about me. It's not about you. It's not about any one of us here. Rather, it is about the country, our people, accountability, justice, and fairness. 19 00:11:39,230 --> 00:11:47,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again still, before we proceed to allowing the parties to make their appearances, Court would like to take up matters arising from the previous hearing. 20 00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:53,430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As pointed out by some Senator-Judges. Yes, Senator-Judge Tulfo. 21 00:11:58,940 --> 00:12:56,050 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mr. Presiding Officer, I remember nag-issue kayo ng warning dati sa spokesperson ng Prosecution. In the same manner, nag-issue din kayo ng warning sa spokesperson ng Defense. Now it's about time na mag-issue tayo ng warning. sa sarili nating spokesperson. Why? Kasi over the weekend, marami akong mga kakilala, kaibigan, tumawag sa akin. Sabi, na-pre-judge niyo na agad yung outcome ng impeachment kasi itong si Reynald Tongol, Tongol ba ito? Sorry kung mispronounce ko ang pangalan niya, na nagsalita sa media na sa December 16 ay makakaroon daw tayo ng final verdict. sa impeachment trial ni VP Sara. How true is it, Mr. Presiding Officer? 22 00:12:56,590 --> 00:12:59,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is not entirely accurate, Senator-Judge. 23 00:12:59,970 --> 00:13:00,690 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So that's fake news? 24 00:13:01,010 --> 00:14:04,840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, but that statement is not entirely accurate. Whatever statements on timetable that came out over the weekend can only be based, rather, on the pretrial order, which stated that the prosecution asked for 60... One, 62 days, I believe. And the respondent asked for 30 trial dates. If you put that computation and apply it accordingly, then you will look at the timetable depending on whether or not we have cancelled trials, as we did last week, we had two cancelled trials. So that is just simply based on the calendar contained in the pretrial order. But the court, at this point in time, let it be placed on record and let it be known. It's based on math, not based on the realities on the ground of the trial. It may be a working mathematical equation, but certainly not based on reality, much less is that the point of view of the court. The court will instruct the spokesperson accordingly. 25 00:14:16,970 --> 00:14:27,970 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Buti pa siya, marami siyang alam. Itong mga Senator-Judges, mga kasamahan ko, there are things na hindi namin alam, nabubulagahan na lang kami pag nag-duck-duck siya sa media, kumbaga inuunahan niya tayo, pinipremp niya tayo. 26 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:35,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Raffi. We will take it in advisement and shall act accordingly based on the Senator-Judge's manifestation this morning. 27 00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:37,260 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you. 28 00:14:39,340 --> 00:14:47,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, before proceeding to another matter, Chair would like to clarify where we are. Right now. 29 00:14:55,300 --> 00:15:43,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The presiding officer pursuant to a directive issued during the October 1, 2026 trial, the clerk of court issued an advisory dated October 1, 2026 on the order of presentation of witnesses by the panel of prosecutors for the week covering October 5 to 8. First will be the Anti-Money Laundering Council today. followed by bank representatives and representatives from insurance and investment companies tomorrow and then witnesses from the BIR. We are also in receipt of a manifestation coming from the prosecution on the presentation sans the issuance of a subpoena or without the issuance of a subpoena to Attorney Alexander Cabrera. 30 00:15:45,570 --> 00:15:54,570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to be presented after the BIR. May the court allow the parties to enter their appearances now, so the court will make an inquiry from the parties. 31 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:56,880 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Good 32 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,900 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: morning, Your Honors. For the prosecution, we're ready. 33 00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:04,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Who will present the AMLC, Honorable Redon? 34 00:16:05,180 --> 00:16:07,020 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Atty. Divina Gracia, Your Honor. 35 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good morning, Atty. Sheila. 36 00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:12,700 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearance for the respondent accused. 37 00:16:13,060 --> 00:16:27,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: While you're there, Atty. Sheila, before turning it over to whomsoever will handle the AMLOC official, may we ask if you already got the manifestation of the prosecution pertaining to Atty. Cabrera as well as the 38 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:36,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: supposed Annex A, which I don't have, which is the table and or summary that he prepared. Have you received it, Atty. Sheila? 39 00:16:37,040 --> 00:17:04,560 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: We did your honor. However, we only received this by email last Saturday at around past 8 p.m. And we had difficulty, in fact, accessing the accompanying Microsoft SharePoint. But nonetheless, we would just like to put on record that the notice given for the presentation of this new witness is less than the five-day 40 00:17:06,990 --> 00:17:11,870 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Period or notice to the parties, Your Honor. 41 00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:51,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Clerk of Court is directed to furnish the respondent with a hard copy of the manifestation as well as the attachment, Annex A, which the Presiding Officer doesn't even have to as of yet. We note the manifestation of Attorney Sheila in any event. I think that will happen if at all. After the BAR, which is probably Thursday or Friday this week, I suppose. I really cannot tell, depending on how long the direct and cross-examination and interjections of the parties will be. What is the pleasure of the Honorable Diokno? 42 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:54,720 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Just a clarification from the defense, if your honors, please. 43 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:55,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, you may proceed. 44 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:02,200 Rep. Jose Manuel “Chel” I. Diokno: Attorney Sheila mentioned that they had difficulty in opening the attached file, but may I know if they were able to open it? 45 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:11,840 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, we did. We did after one whole day, Your Honor. I think we only were able to open it last night, Your Honor. Thank 46 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:12,360 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: you, Your Honor. 47 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:14,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good to know. Thank you. 48 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:20,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Sheila, who will handle... No, let me proceed first with this before asking you who will handle... 49 00:18:22,330 --> 00:18:25,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: On 50 00:18:27,450 --> 00:18:43,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: October 1, the impeachment court received summaries from the Anti-Money Laundering Council in response to a request from the panel of prosecutors for their preparation. Counsel for Respondents subsequently manifested that it received copies of the summaries. The court receives the summaries of the following. CTRs and STRs. 51 00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:56,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: CTRs and STRs involving the 15 juridical persons or personalities from 2007 to 2025. CTRs and STRs involving the Vice President, 52 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:54,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: her spouse, Attorney Carpio, from 2022 to 2025. CTRs and STRs involving 15 juridical persons from 2022 to 2025. CTRs and STRs pertaining to inward remittances of Cali88 Foods Corporation and CTRs and STRs involving insurance policies and investment-related transactions. During the sidebar with the presiding officer with the counsels for the parties, council for respondent cited and erased reservations citing Sections 8A and 14D of Republic Act No. 9160, as well as a provision from its amendatory law, RA No. 11521. The presiding court, through the clerk of court, furnished Senator-Judge's ex-abundante cautela out of extreme caution with copies of the aforementioned sections in the aforementioned laws. 53 00:19:57,540 --> 00:20:01,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before the witness is subjected to direct examination, 54 00:20:04,090 --> 00:20:15,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Presiding Officer intends to ask him some questions pertaining to these points raised by the respondent unless there is a Senator-Judge who wish to bring the matter up. 55 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:27,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If there are none, Atty. Sheila, who will be handling the witness from the Anti-Monday-London Council? 56 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:30,240 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Atty. Mark Binduan will examine the witness, Your Honor. 57 00:20:31,020 --> 00:20:31,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark? 58 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:37,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Morning, Your Honor. 59 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good morning, Atty. Mark. And it'll be Atty. Mae? 60 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,580 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. Realtor. 61 00:20:48,250 --> 00:20:49,350 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Good morning, Your Honors. 62 00:20:49,650 --> 00:20:50,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Do 63 00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:52,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you want your platform, Attorney Mae? 64 00:20:52,350 --> 00:20:53,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 65 00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:55,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly assist, 66 00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:57,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Mae, please. 67 00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:09,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sir directs the Clerk of Court to kindly situate the next witness, Attorney Ronel 68 00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:17,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Buenaventura, to the witness stand, the Executive Director of the Anti-Money Laundering Council. 69 00:21:42,550 --> 00:21:45,650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Clerk of Court is directed to kindly administer the oath to the witness. 70 00:21:46,070 --> 00:21:47,890 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Sir, kindly stand and raise your right hand. 71 00:21:50,160 --> 00:22:02,100 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: You, Ronel Benaventura, do swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Saira Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. 72 00:22:02,860 --> 00:22:03,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney 73 00:22:06,370 --> 00:22:10,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ronel, naunawaan niyo po ba yung inyong pinanumpaan? 74 00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:12,590 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 75 00:22:14,370 --> 00:22:26,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before the offer of Attorney May, allow the Chair to ask some questions. Preliminary questions to the witness. If you will allow me, Atty. Ronel. 76 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:28,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 77 00:22:29,700 --> 00:22:35,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You appeared before this impeachment court pursuant to a subpoena issued by the court. Is that correct? 78 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Pursuant to the two subpoenas, Your Honor. 79 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Both ad testificandum and duces tecum? 80 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Bali tatlo po kasi another one was issued for today's... 81 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:48,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For today? 82 00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:49,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 83 00:22:49,640 --> 00:23:05,590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And also pursuant to a subpoena... issued earlier with respect to documents pertaining to the Vice President, her spouse, as well as certain corporations, not all requested by the Prosecution, insofar as CTRs and STRs are concerned. 84 00:23:05,950 --> 00:23:06,790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 85 00:23:07,930 --> 00:23:12,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Did you bring those documents with you and or a summary of those documents? 86 00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:17,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The documents were submitted already with this Honorable Court, Your Honor. 87 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:52,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair, I would like to remind you that your testimony will be confined to the reports subpoenaed by this court. And may I ask, after looking at it in camera by the court through the presiding officer, the court did not see any procedural confidentialities that may be violated by the AMLC and so giving the report. However, I need to ask you, will you be violating any provision of law under either RA No. 9160 as amended by your testimony this morning. Atty. Ronel. 88 00:23:54,370 --> 00:24:49,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. Let me clarify, Your Honor. Under our law, there's a provision under Section 8A wherein we are supposed to ensure confidentiality of our documents. However, under Section 8A-Paragraph 2, Your Honor, nakalagay din po doon that The Council can promulgate rules regarding the handling to ensure that the AMLC and the Secretariat shall not violate that confidentiality. Part po ng aming internal rules is, of course, we have to comply with the orders of competent authorities like the courts po. And of course, we recognize this honorable court. as having the sole power to try and decide impeachment cases, Your Honor. So, pursuant to the coercive and compulsory process of this Court, we are in compliance with our internal rules, the law, and the order of this Court, Your Honor. 89 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:57,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: At hindi magbabagi yung sagot nyo dahil lamang televised ito at public yung hearing at trial na ito. Pareho pa rin po ba sagot ninyo? 90 00:24:57,620 --> 00:24:58,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 91 00:24:59,070 --> 00:25:18,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, with eyes wide open, not wide shut, You are fully aware of the provisions of law pertaining to the AMLC and whatever penalties may be imposed upon you should you be found liable for violating the provisions of AMLC. 92 00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:33,930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I recognize po, but I stand po that our internal rules were promulgated in accordance with provisions of the law po and we are strictly complying only with the lawful subpoena of this honorable court, Your Honor. 93 00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:38,750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What can you cite the specific internal rule, Atty. Ronel, for the information of the Senator-Judges? 94 00:25:39,390 --> 00:25:56,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, we... I'm only disclosing this because of the question of the honorable court presiding officer. Yes. We have promulgated, not promulgated, our council issued information exchange guidelines noong 2022 po, Your 95 00:25:56,630 --> 00:25:56,830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 96 00:25:57,250 --> 00:25:59,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before your entry into the council? 97 00:25:59,550 --> 00:26:00,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 98 00:26:00,630 --> 00:26:05,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Which covers this particular matter and allows you to do what you're doing this morning? 99 00:26:06,130 --> 00:26:10,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. In general po, because it mentioned competent courts po, Your Honor. 100 00:26:11,310 --> 00:26:16,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Thank you for that, Atty. Ronel. Kindly make your offer, Atty. Mae. 101 00:26:16,850 --> 00:26:57,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Your Honor. Your Honor, we are offering the testimony of Atty. Ronel U. Benaventura to prove the following. Number one, billions worth of transactions passed through the accounts of the respondent and her husband. Mula 2007 hanggang 2025, 4.4 billion ang iniulat sa AMLC. Ito ang kabuahang halaga ng mga transaksyon ni Navipi Sara at Atty. Manasseh Scorpio. Iniulat ang mga ito ng mga bangko at iba pang covered persons dahil malaki o kahina-hinala. Hindi pa ito ang lahat ng dumaan sa kanilang mga account. 102 00:26:59,920 --> 00:29:53,530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At least 1.6 billion came in. At least 1.3 billion went out. And no record shows where it went. May 1.6 billion na natukoy na pumasok sa mga account ng mag-asawa. At 1.3 billion naman ang natukoy na lumabas. 1.4 billion pa ang hindi matukoy kung pumasok o lumabas. At ang mga ito ay base pa lamang sa mga CTRs at STRs na isinumiti sa AMLC. Samantala, walang cash na idineklara sa kanyang SALN para sa 2020 hanggang 2024. At sa mga lumabas, wala nang bakas kung saan ito napunta. Number 3. Even after a bank corrected its own error, 4.4 billion in aggregate transactions remained. 6.77 billion ang iniulat ng AMLC sa House noong Abril 2026. Sa kabila ng pagtatama ng BPI sa diumanoy sarili nitong pagkakamali sa sistema, 4.4 billion suspicious at covered transactions pa rin ang natitira. Number four, her husband walked out of two banks with 41 million in cash in a single day. Sa loob lamang ng isang araw noong Augusto 6, 2024, 41 million ang kinuha na cash ni Atty. Carpio, 23 million sa BDO at 18 million sa PNB. Pero sa kanyang 2024 SALN, walang cash na idineklara. No. 5 A person allegedly linked to illegal drugs bought checks naming the respondent as beneficiary. Noong 2011 at 2012, Bumili si Samuel Kang Uy, isang taong diumanoy may kaugnayan sa iligal na droga, at ang kanyang mga anak ng mga tseke na si VP Sara ang binipisyaryo. 14,881,692 pesos and 14 centavos ang kabuuhang halaga. Sila ang naglabas ng pera pero si VP Sara ang tumanggap nito. Number 6. Banks and insurers flagged them again. Flag them again and again. 34 na suspicious transaction report ang nasa file ng respondent, 27 derogatory report ang isinampa tungkol sa kanya, at 70 naman tungkol kay Atty. Carpio. Ang mga dahilan, graft and corrupt practices at malversation of public funds, posibleng kaugnayan sa iligal na droga, at mga transaksyong konektado sa anomalya sa flood control. Hindi ito iisang alarma. Paulit-ulit itong babala mula sa iba't ibang institusyon sa loob ng maraming taon. 103 00:30:00,000 --> 00:31:26,600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ang Cale88 Foods Corporation na itinatag lamang noong 2021 at 47.5% ng shares ay hawak ni Atty. Carpio ay tumanggap ng 319 million na remittance mula sa mga kumpanya sa China. Tatlo rito ang iniulat ng bangko bilang kahinahinala. Walang legal o trade obligation. Walang layunin at walang katwirang pang-ekonomiya. Number eight, their companies moved billions more. Mula 2022 hanggang 2025, halos 4.5 billion ang kabuuhang pumasok at lumabas sa 15 korporasyon kung saan may interes ang mag-asawa. Iba pa ito sa 44.4 billion na pumasok at lumabas sa accounts ng mag-asawa. Number 9. Every figure comes from the bank's own reports. Ang lahat ng ito ay galing sa sariling ulat ng mga banko at insurer na tinanggap, itinago, at isinumiti ng AMLC sa ukumang ito noong July 30, 2026. Number 10. Banks and insurers report these transactions because this is how dirty money moves. Inaatasan ng bata sa mga bangko, insurer at iba pang covered person na 104 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:52,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: i-report sa AMLC ang malalaking transaction sa cash at mga transaksyong kahinahinala dahil dito karaniwang dumadaan ang perang galing sa iligal na gawain. Such other matters relevant to the instant impeachment case, including the powers and functions of the AMLC, the laws and rules on covered and suspicious transactions, and the procedures the AMLC followed in complying with the subpoenas of this honorable court. 105 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Mark? 106 00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:58,660 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Comments, Your Honor. 107 00:32:03,170 --> 00:34:07,530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: First, Rule 128, Section 3 of the Rules of Court provides that evidence is admissible when it is relevant to the issue and is not excluded by the Constitution, the law, or these rules. Therefore, Evidence to be introduced must be competent, and the test of that competence is whether the Constitution, the law, or the rules allow it. Second, under Section 8A of the Anti-Money Laundering Act or AMLA of 2001, which took effect on February 8, 2021, the Anti-Money Laundering Council or AMLC and its Secretariat shall securely protect information received or processed and shall not reveal in any manner any information known to them by reason of their office. This prohibition is absolute and applies to Executive Director-Attorney Ronel U. Buenaventura today and even after his separation from the AMLC. Under this provision and the current state of the law, impeachment is not an exception. Any reference to past impeachment cases, including the Corona impeachment, is therefore unavailing. Number three, it is thus clear that the law prohibits the disclosure in any manner of confidential information, including those submitted by the banks, and other covered persons to the AMLC. The law explicitly extends this prohibition to the members of the media which are here today for the purpose of broadcasting these proceedings to the general public. 108 00:34:09,240 --> 00:37:24,680 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Number four, even the AMLC itself warns about the use of its reports such as prosecution exhibit P-2-7-15-B-AMLC stating that the end user of the information must number one verify the information provided number two protect the confidentiality of the information number three use the information for intelligence purposes only number four not use the information as evidence in formal proceedings and number five Refrain from reproducing, copying, extracting, printing, or distributing material to any third party without the written consent of the AMLC. Walang tinatago ang bisipresidente. Ngunit ang mga datos ay dapat dumaan sa tamang proseso ng pagberika ng naaayon sa batas At hindi dapat ibalandra ang mga ito sa publiko sa pamamaraang mali, malisyoso, at ang tanging layon ay pamumuliti ka lamang. Number five. Moreover, the October 1, 2026 letter issued by Attorney Buenaventura stated that the tabular summaries remain subject to applicable confidentiality, security, and information handling requirements under relevant laws, regulations, and issuances including but not limited to the AMLA as amended its IRRs and applicable AMLC issuances. The defense therefore respectfully submits that allowing this witness to testify will breach confidentiality, violate the law, and disregard the explicit warning by the AMLC. all in violation of the respondent accused rights. We therefore put on record the defense is not and will not be complicit in breaking the law. Lastly, allowing the disclosure of confidential information today sets a dangerous precedent because bank transaction records of the President, Senators, members of the House of Representatives, Supreme Court Justices, other government officials or any other Filipino citizen for that matter can and will be susceptible to similar reckless and abusive acts in the future. Based on the foregoing and with all due respect, the defense is compelled to move for the exclusion of this witness. We also put on record that Vice President Sara Z. Duterte reserves the right to pursue all appropriate legal remedies against those who will violate the law and her rights thereunder. Thank you, Your Honor. 109 00:37:24,860 --> 00:37:26,260 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: If I may just respond, Your Honor. 110 00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:32,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I will in a bit, Attorney May. Attorney Mark, I take it your 111 00:37:35,700 --> 00:37:50,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: motion to exclude is based on the objection grounded on confidentiality under The sections raised by the lead counsel for the respondents last week. 112 00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:55,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 9C, 14D, and 8A. 113 00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:56,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 114 00:37:56,100 --> 00:37:57,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: old and the new law. 115 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:04,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Those are all considered, Your Honor, but the main ground would be 8A. 116 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:17,000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But when you say you will not be complicit in a violation, should the Presiding Officer, in the court rule against your motion to exclude, you will still do your cross. 117 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:18,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will act according to your honor. 118 00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:19,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 119 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:20,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: are not at 120 00:38:20,580 --> 00:38:26,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: this point foregoing any possible cross you may take or will take as you may decide later on. 121 00:38:27,060 --> 00:38:27,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That is correct, Your Honor. 122 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:28,840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, Attorney May, 123 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:29,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: comment 124 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: on his motion to exclude. 125 00:38:32,520 --> 00:39:09,610 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Just to respond briefly, Your Honor, to the points raised. First, Your Honor, the defense counsel raised Rule 128, Section 3 of the Rules of Court. Your Honor, the defense counsel seems to be laboring under the mistaken presumption that the offer of evidence is by and of itself evidence. Your Honor, it is not. The office of the offer of evidence is merely to inform the court of what the testimony of the witness seeks to prove. The evidence would be the testimony of the witness himself. Hence, Your Honor, The objection on this ground is rather premature. 126 00:39:12,160 --> 00:40:36,350 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Number two, Your Honor, he raised grounds two, three, and four, Your Honor, but this, Your Honor, have already been resolved at the very onset, Your Honor, when this proceeding is opened, Your Honor. So we will no longer belabor this issue, Your Honor, but let me just raise two important points, Your Honor. First, Your Honor, the confidentiality. under the AMLA, Your Honor, was enacted simply to complement the bank secrecy law. Hence, Your Honor, it should bow down to the same exceptions provided in the bank secrecy, one of which is when disclosure of information is necessitated in impeachment proceedings. Second, Your Honor, Section 8A does not impose absolute prohibition. One that would rent because give it Interpreting that provision as an absolute prohibition, Your Honor, would practically render it impossible for AMLC to perform its functions that would necessitate necessarily the disclosure of information. And also, Your Honor, the grounds raised, Your Honor, pertaining to the confidentiality of the AMLC records would effectively be belated MR of this Honorable Court's July 20 ruling. 127 00:40:36,570 --> 00:40:37,370 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor. 128 00:40:37,550 --> 00:40:57,310 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And Your Honor, there's no ground to exclude this witness, Your Honor. The Defense Counsel is already assuming that this witness will be testifying on confidential matters, Your Honor, without even first listening to the testimony of this witness. That would be all, Your Honor. 129 00:41:04,990 --> 00:41:10,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: 128, Your Honor. It precisely covers testimonial evidence which will be presented today. That will be all, Your Honor. 130 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:19,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair will now make a ruling with respect to the motion to exclude by the counsel for the respondent, Attorney Mark. 131 00:41:21,790 --> 00:41:37,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The counsel for the respondent invokes Section 9C and 14D of Republic Act No. 9160 as amended, together with Section A introduced by Republic Act No. 11521. Respondent argues that Republic v. 132 00:41:39,370 --> 00:47:55,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sandiganbayan was decided under the prior law and therefore may not be controlling anymore. The Court agrees that Section 8A must be considered. However, it does not follow that AMLC reports have thereby become absolutely immune from compulsory process. Section 9C prohibits covered persons and their officers and employees from disclosing that a covered or suspicious transaction report was made, its contents or related information. In Republic v. Sandiganbayan, the Supreme Court held that the prohibition applies to reporting institutions, not to the AMLC itself. Republic Act No. 11521 did not alter Section 9C in that material respect. Thus, Republic v. Sandiganbayan remains controlling on the scope of Section 9C of Republic Act No. 9160. Section 14D as amended imposes penalties for a breach of Section 9C or Section 8A. It does not enlarge those provisions, declare AMLC reports inadmissible, or create an express privilege against a subpoena. Criminal liability attaches only to a prohibited disclosure. Compliance with the lawful order subject to proper safeguards does not constitute to the mind of the court such a breach. Section 8A is the new provision directly governing the AMLC and its Secretariat. It requires them to protect information received or processed and prohibits its unauthorized revelation. But its second paragraph expressly directs the AMLC to establish rules governing information exchange and dissemination. As well as access to such information. The provision therefore regulates the manner and conditions of disclosure. It does not command absolute silence under every circumstance. Sections 8A and 14D are not wholly novel. Section 8A is substantially codified. The confidentiality duties already found in Rule 2, Section 7 of the original AMLA IRR, and later in Rule 22B of the 2016 revised IRR. Sections 9C and 14D, meanwhile, already appeared in the original AMLA with Rule 3, Section 2H of the original IRR, merely implementing the statutory prohibition and penalty for reporting related breaches. Republic Act No. 11521 thus incorporated the pre-existing AMLC confidentiality duty to the statute and brought its violation within Section 14D's existing penal framework, rather than creating an entirely new absolute privilege against lawful compulsory process. This finds support too with the Journal of the Senate during the debates on 11.521, Republic Act No. 11521 wherein the sponsor and author stated that it was merely lifted and codified from the existing AMLA rules and regulations at that time. Section 8A must also be read in pari materia or in relation with Section 7, which retains the expanded AMLC's authority to investigate suspicious transactions, institute civil forfeiture, and other remedial proceedings, cause the filing of complaints before the Department of Justice or the Ombudsman, and resort to judicial processes including subpoenas. Section 11 of Republic Act No. 11521 likewise preserves All provisions of the AMLA not consistent with the amendment. These provisions must be harmonized so that the thing may rather have effect than be destroyed. Section 8A protects AMLC information against leaks, indiscriminate publication, and other unauthorized disclosure. It cannot be construed to disable the AMLC from performing the very investigative and litigation functions that Congress simultaneously preserved or from complying with the lawful and particularized subpoena subject to judicial safeguards. Thus, while Republic v. Sandiganbayan did not interpret the subsequently enacted Section 8A, the reliance on that circumstance is unavailing. The decision remains authoritative as to the unchanged Section 9C and its central reasoning remains applicable. The AMLC is not a passive repository and confidentiality cannot be invoked in a manner that defeats its statutory mandate. Republic Act No. 11521 Strengthened Information Security It did not overrule Republic v. Sandiganbayan nor repeal AMLC's functions or confer immunity form a subpoena. Further, Section 2 of Republic Act No. 1405, as pointed out by Senator-Judge Lacson in our last hearing, separately and expressly permits inquiry into bank deposits in cases of impeachment. The Supreme Court recognized this statutory exception in PNB v. Gancayco, G.R. No. 18343 While this exception does not by itself dispose of the distinct confidentiality imposed on AMLC information, it confirms the policy that bank secrecy is not an absolute bar to the constitutional accountability process. The AMLC witness may therefore identify, authenticate, and explain the report specified in the subpoena. This ruling does not authorize unrestricted public disclosure. Testimony shall be confined only to relevant matters and may, when necessary, be received in camera as the case may be. Either party may still object on grounds of authentication, relevance, hearsay, completeness, accuracy, admissibility, or evidentiary weight, or the presence or absence of personal knowledge. 133 00:47:56,940 --> 00:48:12,000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The motion to exclude is denied without prejudice to the counsel who responded, making any objections in the course of the testimony of Attorney Ronel of the AMLC. 134 00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:38,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It gives the opportunity to place it on the record, enrich the records of the impeachment court as well, and to afford the parties the opportunity to raise or question any matter pertaining to this particular order and the ruling. Before Atty. Mark, Sen. Judge Pia is recognized. What is your pleasure, ma'am? 135 00:48:41,200 --> 00:49:03,840 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Can I have a copy, a written copy? I take this ruling very seriously and I'd like to follow but my ability to listen and digest everything is limited without a written copy. May I have a written copy? May I be given time to study it? I don't need much time but I just want to follow the reasoning of the court. Thank you. 136 00:49:04,170 --> 00:49:15,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The clerk is directed to furnish Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano with a copy of the TSN. It's more accurate because it should be checked against delivery. I did not exactly read the copy. 137 00:49:15,570 --> 00:49:36,910 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: But I would need time to look at it before we proceed. I don't mind that the discussions continue but before the ruling is executed by way of a continuation, I would like to ask for time just to read it. Thank you. Because I may not have any comment. I may not have any... You know, argument on it. I would just like time to read it. Thank you. 138 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:57,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the indulgence of the Senator-Judge, we'll give a copy as soon as we can, or if she can do with the prepared ruling of the Chair, checked against delivery, of course. Checked against delivery. We will do that, Your Honor. Yes, Senator-Judge Villanueva, what is your pleasure, sir? 139 00:49:57,540 --> 00:51:49,520 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Yes, Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, just a very brief manifestation on your ruling. because this representation would like to express my support as former chairperson of the Senate Committee on Banks and you yourself Mr. Presiding Officer together with Senator Mark Villar here used to chair the Senate Committee on Banks and Financial Institutions and Currencies. I just wish to place on record that the confidentiality of Bank deposits is an important policy of the state but it has never been absolute, Mr. President. In fact, Section 2 of Republic Act No. 1405 or the Bank Secrecy Law expressly recognizes cases of impeachment and I will quote it, Mr. President, cases of impeachment as an exemption. to the confidentiality of ordinary peso bank deposits. This is not merely theoretical and in fact during the corona impeachment trial, this court exercised its authority. to issue subpoenas requiring bank officers to appear and produce specified bank records. And lastly, Mr. President, this is consistent with the policy considerations we also examined in the Committee on Banks, including in our work, the bright measure that the bank secrecy protects legitimate... Privacy, but it should not become a shield against lawful accountability where the law itself expressly authorizes disclosure. Just to put on record, Mr. President, thank you. 140 00:51:50,190 --> 00:51:54,590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted and entered into the records. Attorney Mark, what is your pleasure, sir? 141 00:51:54,890 --> 00:52:06,210 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, we will submit to the ruling of the court, but may we be allowed to offer a more pointed set of comments on the offer at this point, Your Honor? 142 00:52:06,620 --> 00:52:10,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, of course. You may do so, Attorney 143 00:52:10,960 --> 00:54:15,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Mark. Please proceed. Thank you, Your Honor. For the first offer, such as denied. Number two, for the second offer, it is also denied with a counter-manifestation that the word or the idea of SALN was mentioned and it is obvious that the witness has no personal knowledge of the SALN as filed by the Vice President and therefore cannot reconcile. with the records that he has. Number three, offer number three is denied as well. Number four, offer number four is denied. It mentions bank transactions but again, the witness has no personal knowledge on those and he cannot reconcile again with the records that he has. Number five, it's denied as well under the same objection. Number six, It is also denied especially the term flagged because what the AMLC has are reports on covered transactions and suspicious transactions mainly and these are under their mandate under the law. Offer number seven is likewise denied. It mentions the idea of money from China but obviously the witness has no personal knowledge of such a concept. considering that he is merely the AMLC Executive Director. Number 8 is denied. Number 9 is likewise denied. Number 10 is denied, specifically the term dirty money. It's a conclusion of fact that is unwarranted. And finally, 7, such other matters, it's denied with a counter-manifestation that should the witness identify documents in relation to this offer, we will reserve the right to Object thereto, specifically with the citations of the applicable laws, as we may deem proper. And moreover, Your Honor, the whole cross-examination will be conducted at Gautel. I 144 00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:23,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: beg this honorable court's indulgence, but I am constrained, Your Honor, to move for the expunction of the manifestation made, Your Honor, because there's no... 145 00:54:26,060 --> 00:54:56,950 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: It's not the proper time to make those manifestations, Your Honor. What I mentioned, what I read out were offers of the testimony, Your Honor, not requests for stipulation. So, we were not asking the defense counsel either to admit or deny those offers, Your Honor. And they were already given time to raise their objections to the offer. These are belated objections, Your Honor, and the presiding officer has already ruled on the objections earlier made. 146 00:54:57,690 --> 00:55:11,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark, I also took it that way. I take it that you are not stipulating as to any of the offers made by Atty. Mae and everything that she will be presenting in her direct shall be subject to cross. 147 00:55:11,870 --> 00:55:30,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I understand that, Your Honor, but The initial set of comments, Your Honor, just to clarify, it was made under the presumption that we were trying to exclude the witness. And now that the court has allowed the presentation of the witness, then we just wanted to make more specific manifestations on the offer, Your Honor. 148 00:55:30,460 --> 00:55:30,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 149 00:55:30,700 --> 00:55:59,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: motion of Attorney May to expunge is denied. Let it remain in the records. All of the contents of the direct examination and answer of the witness shall be subject to objections and cross by Attorney Mark. And it is noted that his cross-examination and our participation in regard to the presentation of this witness are all done ad cautela. Would that be correct, Attorney Mark? 150 00:56:00,350 --> 00:56:01,850 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That would be correct. Thank you, Your Honor. 151 00:56:02,260 --> 00:56:06,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted. Atty. Mae, you may proceed with your direct examination when you're ready. 152 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:07,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 153 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:21,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the indulgence of Senator-Judge Pia, who can bring the matter up anytime because Atty. Mae will deal with preliminaries anyway in the meantime. 154 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,200 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay, but for the record, I'm on page 2 of page 5. 155 00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:26,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes. Can we allow 156 00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:27,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May to 157 00:56:27,500 --> 00:56:29,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: do... Can we 158 00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:35,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: allow Attorney May with the preliminaries and shall pause before we go into the meat of the matter. 159 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:36,020 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: No problem, Mr. 160 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:37,100 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Presiding Officer. 161 00:56:37,100 --> 00:56:40,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you very much for your indulgence, Senator-Judge Pia. Attorney May, you may continue. 162 00:56:40,780 --> 00:56:44,820 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Your Honor. Good morning po, Attorney Buenaventura. 163 00:56:45,140 --> 00:56:45,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Good 164 00:56:45,540 --> 00:56:46,240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: morning, Your Honor. 165 00:56:46,380 --> 00:56:49,240 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Good morning din po ulit sa Defense Counsel, Atty. Vinduan. Good 166 00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:49,840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: morning, Attorney May. 167 00:56:50,040 --> 00:57:02,240 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Atty. Buenaventura, para lang po sa kaalaman ng lahat, pwede niyo bang banggitin kung ano ang inyong complete name and other personal circumstances such as your occupation and present employment? 168 00:57:02,960 --> 00:57:13,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, ako po si Ronel U. Buenaventura. I'm a lawyer po by profession and currently po I am the Executive Director of the Anti-Money Laundering Council, Your Honor. 169 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:24,300 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Bonaventura, nabanggit niyo po na kayo ang kasalukuyang Executive Director ng AMLC. Kailan po kayo nagsimula na manungkulan bilang Executive Director ng AMLC? 170 00:57:24,780 --> 00:57:29,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nagsimula po ako noong April 14, 2026, Your Honor. 171 00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:29,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At 172 00:57:29,940 --> 00:57:36,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: bilang Executive Director naman po ng AMLC, ano naman po ang inyong mga mahalagang tungkulin? 173 00:57:37,940 --> 00:57:56,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, as the Executive Director po, I head the AMLC Secretariat. Yung AMLC Secretariat po yung nag-a-assist sa Council in the performance of their mandate po. I also oversee the Secretariat's day-to-day operation po, Your Honor. 174 00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:10,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Nabanggit niyo po yung AMLC Secretariat. Maliban po sa pag-a-assist sa Council, ano pa po ba ang ibang mga mahalagang functions and responsibilities ng AMLC Secretariat? 175 00:58:12,410 --> 00:58:38,690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung other functions po nito is bilang nabangit ko nga po yung nag-a-assist po sa council in the performance of their mandate po. So kasama po dito yung pag-receive ng mga suspicious and covert transaction reports po, pag-analyze po ng reports, at saka pag-ensure din po na yung mga covert persons po ay nagko-comply po sa Anti-Money Laundering Act sa pagre-report din po. 176 00:58:39,260 --> 00:58:45,780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Bukod po sa inyo ng mga nabanggit, ano pa po kung meron man ang iba pa niyong tungkulin na ginagampanan? 177 00:58:46,140 --> 00:59:16,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So ano na rin po, bilang Executive Director po, I represent the Secretariat as well as the Council in matters that would require them po their attention. So kasama po dito is sa mga engagement po and tulad po nito kapag po naipatawag po sa court ang AMLC, I'll be representing also the So, if I may say din po, I'm only appearing in my professional capacity as the Executive Director of AMLC. 178 00:59:16,770 --> 00:59:23,330 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Berna Ventura, ano po ba yung mga qualifications para sa inyong posisyon bilang Executive Director? 179 00:59:25,050 --> 00:59:50,660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Under sa Anti-Money Laundering Act po, the Executive Director must be a lawyer at least po 35 years of age. Meron pong good moral character. Unquestionable integrity, known probity. Kailangan din po nakapagserve siya sa Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas Insurance Commission o Securities and Exchange Commission ng at least 5 years po. 180 00:59:50,860 --> 00:59:57,520 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At bago po kayo naging Executive Director ng AMLC, ano naman po yung dati nyong trabaho kung mayroon man? 181 00:59:57,940 --> 01:00:15,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nag-serve po ako as As Assistant Vice President and then Vice President ng Globe Fintech Innovations or MINT. And bago po noon, nag-serve din po ako as Legal Officer and then Acting Deputy Director po ng Anti-Money Laundering Council. 182 01:00:17,140 --> 01:00:23,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kailan po kayo nag-serve bilang Acting Executive Director ng AMLC? 183 01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ano po? Acting Deputy Director 184 01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:25,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. 185 01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:26,000 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, 186 01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:26,840 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Acting Deputy Director. 187 01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 2021 to 2023 po, Your Honor. 188 01:00:34,620 --> 01:00:40,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Buenaventura, nabanggit niyo po na kayo ay abogado. Kailan po kayo kumuha ng bar examinations? 189 01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:45,960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Noong 2015 pa po. Yung resulta po nakuha po noong 2016, Your Honor. 190 01:00:46,260 --> 01:00:50,440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano naman po ang naging resulta sa inyong 2015 bar examinations? 191 01:00:52,650 --> 01:00:58,470 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nakapasa naman po. I placed 10 po sa bar po noong 2015 bar po. 192 01:00:58,710 --> 01:01:04,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kung pwede ko pong maitanong, Atty. Benaventura, ano po ang inyong naging bar rating kung inyong po itong naalala? 193 01:01:06,820 --> 01:01:08,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 85.75 po, Your Honor. 194 01:01:09,660 --> 01:01:24,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 85.7. Sorry, Your Honor, naalala ko lang po. That's 5.7 percentage points more than yung 80 percentage points na nakuha nung kakilala namin ni Atty. Van Luan. Anyway, I'll move on, Your Honor. 195 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:29,740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. Just move to strike out that portion of the comments. I don't think that's relevant, Your Honor. 196 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sustained, stricken off, move on, counsel. 197 01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:41,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Ventura, para po sa mga hindi nakakaalam kung ano ang AMLC, ano po ba ang AMLC? 198 01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:56,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, AMLC po is created pursuant to the Anti-Money Laundering Act or RA 916. Ito po yung Philippine Financial Intelligence Unit po. 199 01:01:56,500 --> 01:01:58,820 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano naman po ang mandato ng AMLC? 200 01:01:59,820 --> 01:02:09,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang mandato po is to ensure po that the Philippines will not be used as a money laundering site for the proceeds of unlawful activity po, Your Honor. 201 01:02:09,580 --> 01:02:12,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At ano naman po ang mga kapangyarihan at tungkulin ng AMLC? 202 01:02:13,530 --> 01:03:10,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So kasama po sa tungkulin po ng AMLC ay to require and receive covered transaction reports or CTRs and suspicious transaction reports po or STRs. and then i-analyze po ito and if needed to conduct necessary investigation including filing of bank inquiry or freeze order po before the court of appeals and then if proper if all evidence po ay meron to file the necessary criminal case before the criminal complaint before the office of the ombudsman or the department of justice and to file for future cases of proceeds of money laundering. Part din po ng mandato ng AMLC yung mag-supervise po ng mga covered person to ensure that they comply with the Anti-Money Laundering Act. 203 01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:19,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Benaventura, paulit-ulit din po nabanggit ang salitang money laundering. In simple terms, Atty. Benaventura, ano po ba ang money laundering? 204 01:03:21,400 --> 01:04:01,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I'll be recalling from the law and jurisprudence that I remember right now. Money laundering is a crime whereby proceeds from unlawful activity listed under the law are transferred, transacted, moved, or made to appear to have originated from legitimate sources. So, essentially po, ito po yung pagtatago or pagpapalabas na yung pera galing sa illegal activity ay malinis po. 205 01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:11,440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Kanina rin po nabanggit ninyo na tumatanggap ang AMLC ng mga covered at suspicious transaction reports. Saan po ba galing ang mga reports na ito? 206 01:04:11,820 --> 01:04:19,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung cover, galing po sila sa covered persons po, Your Honor. Sila po yung nagpa-file sa amin. 207 01:04:19,710 --> 01:04:22,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sino naman po itong mga tinatawag na covered persons? 208 01:04:23,830 --> 01:05:31,460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Covered persons po, ayon po sa batas, meron pong apat na grupo po. Yung unang grupo po, ito po yung mga supervised and regulated po ni Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas. So kasama po dito yung mga banko, remittance company, e-wallet, at iba pa. Yung pangalawa naman po ay mga regulated po ng insurance commission. Kasama po rito yung mga insurance company, pre-need companies, at iba pa po. Yung pangatlo naman po, yung regulated po ng Securities and Exchange Commission kasama po dito yung mga securities broker, securities dealer, investment houses, at iba pa. At yung huling grupo naman po, hindi po sila regulated yung tatlong nabanggit ko pong ahensya pero Nakalagay po sila sa batas. So ang tawag po namin sa kanila ay designated non-financial businesses and professions or DNFBPs. Sila naman po kasama po dito yung mga casinos, jewelry dealers, real estate broker, real estate developers at iba pa po. So sila po yung mga covered persons po natin. 209 01:05:31,460 --> 01:05:36,420 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta muna po tayo sa covered transaction report. Ano naman po itong mga covered transactions na ito? 210 01:05:36,870 --> 01:06:07,650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung covered transaction is any transaction in cash or monetary instrument in excess of 500,000 pesos in a banking day. Kung ang reporting entity po ay casino, ang halaga po ay 5 million pesos in cash. At kung ang reporting, ang covered person na nagre-report naman po ay Royal estate broker or developer that is 7.5 million in cash po. 211 01:06:08,050 --> 01:06:15,570 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Benaventura, bakit po ba inaatasa ng mga covert person na i-report sa AMLC ang mga covert transactions? 212 01:06:16,900 --> 01:06:17,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, just 213 01:06:17,900 --> 01:06:19,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: manifestation, Your Honor. 214 01:06:19,700 --> 01:06:21,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Mark. 215 01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, the prosecution flashed 216 01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:34,530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: a slide on the screen. May we just inquire of the prosecution or the witness if... The witness himself prepared that transaction because it seems to be in line with his testimony now. 217 01:06:34,790 --> 01:06:36,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Forgive me, I didn't see anything flashed 218 01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:38,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: on the screen. Did you flash 219 01:06:38,050 --> 01:06:38,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: anything 220 01:06:38,370 --> 01:06:39,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: on the screen, attorney Mae? 221 01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:43,110 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I'm sorry, your honor. I also did not see what was flashed. There was something 222 01:06:43,110 --> 01:06:50,910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: that was flashed on the screen and it seems to be very in line with what the witness is testifying on now. Can the 223 01:06:50,910 --> 01:06:52,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: clerk kindly check? 224 01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: with detect what was flashed 225 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:03,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and upon whose authority it was flashed. We'll find out. We'll find out. 226 01:07:05,390 --> 01:07:05,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark. 227 01:07:06,490 --> 01:07:10,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It was just seconds ago, Your Honor. Just for the record. Thank you, Your Honor. 228 01:07:10,790 --> 01:07:17,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It may be a glitch but I won't assume. We'll find out, Atty. Mark. Atty. May, you may continue. 229 01:07:19,790 --> 01:07:23,730 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry. I think the question was left hanging, Your Honor. 230 01:07:23,770 --> 01:07:24,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can you 231 01:07:24,030 --> 01:07:26,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: repeat the question, Atty. May, for Atty. Ronel? 232 01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:33,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Bakit po ba, Atty. Benaventura, inaatasa ng mga covered persons na i-report sa AMLC ang mga covered transactions? 233 01:07:35,160 --> 01:08:01,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I'm not sure po kung bakit na specific niyo reason on law. It's just reported there under the law. But under the law din po, and sa regulations po namin, implementing rules and regulations, we use these covered... Transactions po, CTR reports po as part of our analysis po whether eventually po a person may have committed money laundering po. So ginagamit po yun under sa batas po. 234 01:08:05,450 --> 01:08:25,820 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Atty. Bonaventura. Ano naman pong report kung mayroon man ang kailangang isumite ng covert person para sa transaction sa cash na eksaktong 500,000 pesos o mas mababa? Halimbawa, 499,999 pesos and 99 centavos. 235 01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:43,390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kapag Below the reporting threshold po. Wala po silang kailangan i-report. Hindi po yung ma-re-report sa amin. Maliban na lang po kung sila po ay STR or subject po ng suspicious transaction report. Pero technically po wala pong na-re-report sa amin na below sa threshold po. 236 01:08:43,650 --> 01:08:46,470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano naman po itong mga suspicious transactions na ito? 237 01:08:46,970 --> 01:09:04,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So yung STR po, it's a report po. wherein the covered person, yung nabanggit ko po mga covered person kanina, found that there is presence po ng mga suspicious circumstance dun sa account or sa transaction po, Your Honor. 238 01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:09,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At sino naman po ang nagdedetermine kung merong ng mga suspicious circumstances? 239 01:09:10,580 --> 01:09:13,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung covered person po ang nagdedetermine po, Your Honor. 240 01:09:13,400 --> 01:09:17,480 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano naman po itong mga suspicious circumstances na iyong nabanggit? 241 01:09:17,760 --> 01:10:12,750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, allow me to To recall po from the law po, there are seven suspicious circumstances po. The first one is if there is no underlying legal trade obligation or purpose or economic justification. Yung pangalawa po is the client is not properly identified. The third is the transaction is not commensurate with the business profile or capacity of the client. Number four po is that based on the circumstances, it appears that a person is trying to structure yung kanyang transactions so as to avoid being reported. So as to avoid being reported po. Yung pang lima po, Your Honor, is if there is a deviation from 242 01:10:12,750 --> 01:10:12,990 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the... 243 01:10:12,990 --> 01:10:36,070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sorry to interrupt at this point. Sorry, Mr. Witness. This seems to be in the same format of the previous slide that I was talking about. May we just inquire if the witness himself prepared or participated in the participation of this because this seems to be in line, exactly in line with his testimony. 244 01:10:36,350 --> 01:10:36,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 245 01:10:36,370 --> 01:10:47,170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the chair also confirms that the earlier slide flashed for a second or two. simply contained what the law states and was in line with the witnesses' testimony. 246 01:10:47,530 --> 01:11:10,090 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To clarify, Your Honor, sorry to interrupt. This one, we are confirming that it is in line with what the law says. But the previous slide, Your Honor, there was a specific example given, which was the casino and the amount given, which is 500,000. And he just mentioned it now, Your Honor, that example. So may we just know if he was the one who prepared it or it was prepared in advance for him? 247 01:11:10,770 --> 01:11:24,610 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Again, I did not see the slide, but I would assume, Your Honor, that what was flashed earlier, Your Honor, is also what is provided under the law. These thresholds, Your Honor, that the witness just testified on are matters that are provided under the law. 248 01:11:24,610 --> 01:11:24,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 249 01:11:24,670 --> 01:11:28,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: question, Attorney Mayes, you have assisting counsel there at the tech 250 01:11:28,530 --> 01:11:29,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: for your direct 251 01:11:29,890 --> 01:11:30,190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: examination? 252 01:11:30,670 --> 01:11:59,510 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor, because, Your Honor, My assisting lawyer, Your Honor, is familiar with the questions that I will be propounding and she is familiar with the law. That's why, Your Honor, we also expect this witness, being a law professor himself and a lawyer and the executive director of the AMLC, nonetheless, your honor, sorry, no less, we expect, Your Honor, that this witness is also well-versed with the law, Your Honor. 253 01:11:59,940 --> 01:12:11,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So to answer the query of Attorney Mark, this was prepared by the counsel for the panel of prosecutors in line with your direct examination. Would that be correct, Attorney? 254 01:12:12,460 --> 01:12:13,220 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 255 01:12:15,870 --> 01:12:17,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Mark? 256 01:12:17,490 --> 01:12:36,120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In line with that, Your Honor, may we just inquire, Your Honor, just to give clarity, Your Honor, on the matter, if the witness was even briefed about this PowerPoint presentation before his testimony today, despite being the fact that he was already under subpoena since last week. 257 01:12:53,120 --> 01:13:05,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is not in accordance with law, for example, if this is indeed not what it purports to be, which is Section 3B1, of what, Attorney May, of the rules? Implementing rules or the law? 258 01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:07,080 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: The law, Your Honor. 259 01:13:08,060 --> 01:13:10,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then you can properly object, Attorney Mark. 260 01:13:11,000 --> 01:13:13,660 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will submit, Your Honor, at this point, Your Honor. Thank you. Thank 261 01:13:13,660 --> 01:13:13,780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you. 262 01:13:13,800 --> 01:13:22,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But you may point it out if there are inaccuracies being pointed out. This is merely demonstrative on the part of the Counsel for the Panel of Prosecutors. You may proceed, Attorney May. 263 01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:30,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: In light of that, Your Honor, may we request a continuing authority, Your Honor, to flash relevant slides on the screen, Your Honor? 264 01:13:31,820 --> 01:13:32,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So granted. 265 01:13:38,590 --> 01:13:48,370 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kanina po sa inyong enumeration nabanggit ninyo ang salitang illegal or unlawful activities. Ano po ba itong mga unlawful activities na ito? 266 01:13:49,500 --> 01:14:11,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, these unlawful activities po are those listed under the Anti-Money Laundering Act. Example po ay kidnapping for ransom, terrorism financing, graft and corruption, violation of dangerous drugs po, Your Honor. So yung po mga nakalista lang po sa anti-money laundering act. 267 01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:22,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon na turn ni Buenaventura, bakit naman po nire-require ang mga covered persons na i-report ang mga suspicious transactions? 268 01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:45,210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, it's what What the law requires po of them eh. Pero on our end po and nasa law po and rules, we also use this suspicious transactions po as part of our analysis po whether this particular person or particular transaction is related to money laundering po. 269 01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:47,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. 270 01:14:50,230 --> 01:14:58,710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon, Atty. Buenaventura, maaari mo ba sabihin kung paano nire-report ang mga covered and suspicious transactions? 271 01:15:01,810 --> 01:15:45,950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Covered transactions po, they are reported po based on a filing of report known as covered transaction report or CTRs po. They are prepared by covered persons, one transaction, one report po. Ganun din po yung suspicious transaction po, one report, one suspicious circumstance or transaction, and then one report po. Although yung po STR po kasi, we also, covered persons po also file, hindi lang po based dun sa transaction, pwede din po dun sa based sa particular account, entire account po, if or client relationship, as long as meron pong suspicious circumstance po. 272 01:15:46,930 --> 01:15:59,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Nabanggit niyo po na yung covered person ay maaaring mag-report ng tungkol sa buong account o client relationship. Paano po ba ito nire-report? 273 01:16:00,970 --> 01:16:02,470 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung... 274 01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:34,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung per account po, ang treatment po is hindi po transaction-based. Ang nare-report po nila is if they find a suspicion on the entire account or entire account. So yung basis po kasi ng suspicious transaction po is regardless of the amount. So wala pong amount na tinitignan. Ang tinitignan po is kung may suspicion. So kung may suspicion po sila na pasok yung entire account po, they will report it as such po, Your Honor. 275 01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:40,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At ano naman pong halaga kung mayroon man ang lumalabas sa mga ganitong klase ng report? 276 01:16:43,230 --> 01:16:57,650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, na ito po ay may suspicion po yung covert person. So, sa site po ng AMLC, we use that po as potentially starting point po ng aming analysis and investigation po, Your Honor. 277 01:16:57,790 --> 01:17:03,350 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano naman po yung amount kung mayroon man ang lumalabas sa mga ganitong klase na report? 278 01:17:11,920 --> 01:17:28,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yun po your honor, we'll use that po as basis po whether eventually, so analysis, starting point po ng analysis namin and then eventually if yung tao ba or yung transaction is involved po sa money laundering or hindi po your honor. 279 01:17:28,800 --> 01:17:35,440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sa mga nakalagay po na field sa report ng mga ganitong klaseng report, ano po bang figure ang lumalabas? 280 01:17:38,960 --> 01:18:23,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung suspicious transaction po, kung yung amount po nung tingin ng covered person po na suspicious, pero kung account-based naman po yung entire account po yung nareport, maaaring pong zero yung ilagay nila kasi hindi naman po talaga transaction-based po yung nareport. Meron din po kami... Na maaari nung araw po kasi yung system po namin may limitation po. So naglalagay po sila ng 1, I think 1 peso minsan po, parang minimal amount kasi nare-reject po. But technically po, wala po talaga. Pag report po yung entire account, hindi po transaction yung nare-report. So typically po, dapat po lumabas zero or wala po, blank po lang po yun kasi account po. Wala pong amount, bali po. 281 01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:29,250 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Sa records po, paano po ba makikilala ang mga ganitong report? 282 01:18:30,500 --> 01:18:50,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa e-mail si po sa reporting guidelines po namin meron pong code na ginagamit yung mga covered person to help us identify kung ano yung nature ng transaction. Yung pong tanong your honor is ang makikita po namin doon kung nireport po yung entire account po is yung code po na STRA. 283 01:18:52,640 --> 01:18:58,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: STRA. STRA per account po kasi yun yung ibig sabihin po nun. So entire account po yung na-report po. 284 01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:16,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Atty. Buenaventura, balik po tayo dun sa money laundering na nabanggit ninyo kanina. Ano po ba ang mga red flag indicators kung meron man na binabatayan ng AMLC sa pagtukoy ng posibleng money laundering activity base po sa mga issuances ng AMLC? 285 01:19:17,100 --> 01:19:42,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung basihan po namin talaga, yung pinaka-basihan po is the suspicious circumstances po. Yun na po talaga yung pinagbabasihan namin. Although, yun po, yung nabanggit ko po kanina na reporting guidelines, meron pong mga example po doon para po matulungan po yung covered person para mag-report po. So, halimbawa po mga large and frequent cash withdrawal na wala pong 286 01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:46,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: client capacity po which is yun 287 01:19:46,120 --> 01:20:08,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: din naman po yung suspicious transaction pag po frequent yung mabilisan po na in and out po sa account or kaya po yung malaking transaction po hinati-hati po para maging structuring para hindi po ma-report so structuring po yun. Yun din po yung mga suspicious circumstances po ang nabanggit ko po kanina your honor. 288 01:20:09,710 --> 01:20:27,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. In relation po to the CTRs and the STRs or the covered transaction and suspicious transactions reporting, ano po ba yung difference kung mayroon man between funds that remain within the banking system and funds that are withdrawn in cash? 289 01:20:30,080 --> 01:20:33,080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry po, Your Honor. Pwede pong paulit ng question. 290 01:20:33,540 --> 01:20:46,400 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Doon po sa covered transaction and suspicious transaction reporting, ano po ba yung difference kung mayroon man between funds that remain within the banking system and funds that are withdrawn in cash? 291 01:20:46,800 --> 01:21:09,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, yung pong nasa CTR and STR po, they are reported sa amin po. So, we are able to trace, yun nga po, we are able to analyze po if cash po It will be difficult for us to see because hindi po siya nare-report ng covered person. Kung mayroon man transaction, so nasa labas po kasi siya ng financial ecosystem na nakikita po namin. 292 01:21:10,510 --> 01:21:31,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Kanina po, Atty. Benaventura, nang pag-start ng proceedings, nabanggit ninyo na kayo ay nandito ngayon sa korteng ito para tumistigo Pursue 1, 2, 3 sub-Pinas issued by this honorable court. Punta po tayo dun sa unang sub-Pina. Ano po ba yung unang sapina na inyong natanggap? 293 01:21:32,610 --> 01:21:42,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, Mr. Presiding Officer, may I refer po dun sa hawak ko pong records na copy po nung sapina issued by this Honorable Court po. 294 01:21:50,230 --> 01:21:50,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor? 295 01:21:54,810 --> 01:22:17,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'm sorry? Yes, you can look at your notes, Atty. Ronel. At any time during your testimony, continuing authority is granted to the witness. Assisting counsels from both parties may likewise approach in order to look more closely at what Attorney Ronell, our witness, is perusing. 296 01:22:27,140 --> 01:22:48,750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In the meantime, while he is perusing his notes, Attorney Mark, I've instructed the Clerk to kindly furnish you with a copy of what was flashed on screen and upon the Chair's initiative, also cross-referenced it with the provision of the law. If it is an accurate representation of the same. 297 01:22:50,670 --> 01:22:53,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For your information and reference and appropriate action, if any. 298 01:22:56,150 --> 01:23:01,280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Thank you, Your Honor. So, Your Honor, may I request for the repeat of the question? 299 01:23:01,380 --> 01:23:01,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can 300 01:23:01,660 --> 01:23:03,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you repeat the question, Attorney May? 301 01:23:03,500 --> 01:23:07,000 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tungkol saan po yung unang supina na inyong natanggap? 302 01:23:07,580 --> 01:23:12,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, yung una pong supina is supina Duchesnecum, dated... 303 01:23:14,540 --> 01:25:03,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: July 21, 2026 po, Your Honor. This is a subpoena requiring the AMLC to submit records, CTRs, covered transaction reports and suspicious transaction reports and other reports submitted by all covered persons and institutions. At pangalawa po, AMLC investigation reports, financial intelligence reports, analysis and memoranda arising from or relating to such CTRs and STRs for the period January 1, 2007 to December 31, 2025. It all relates po to the following persons and entities, Vice President Sara Z. Duterte, Manassas R. Carpio, and then mga other entities po nakalista rito would be Metro City Chow Food Corporation, City Hall King Chow Foods Corporation, GenCorp Industries Inc., Times Square Bee Foods Corporation, Great Jolly Times Food Corporation, Carpio Lawyers, formerly Carpio and Duterte Lawyers, 888 Bistro, Cali88 Foods Corporation, Madayo Fisheries Inc., Mati City Ice Plant and Cold Storage Inc., Amianan Shores Inc., Geometry Security and Investigation Agency Inc., Cabletow 88 Shipping and Marine Services Inc., Davao New Royal Taipan Corp., Davao Emerging Taipans Corp., Davao Bounty Times Food Corp., SGT Fortune Horse Corp., CYKT Inc., Three Kids Tracking Services, Inc., and Zelta Matiem Salon po, Your Honor. 304 01:25:04,100 --> 01:25:04,780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, 305 01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:06,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: sorry to 306 01:25:06,040 --> 01:25:06,280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: interrupt, 307 01:25:06,500 --> 01:25:06,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Attorney 308 01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:07,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: May. 309 01:25:07,220 --> 01:25:08,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney May. 310 01:25:08,360 --> 01:26:01,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sa manifestation, Your Honor, we've perused the slide that I was talking about and we just want to set for the record, Your Honor, that this slide was presented but this slide does not pertain to any specific provision of the law as the law is written. Meaning, this is already a processed version of what the law says. Now, the witness in his testimony pertained to specific factual or a specific example, Your Honor, that is hard for anyone to have predicted unless there was a prior correspondence between the person who prepared that slide and the witness himself. We are not accusing anyone of anything, Your Honor, and we don't want to belabor this point. We just want to put it on for the record, Your Honor. The slides seem to be anticipating what the witness is already talking about. But that is why 311 01:26:01,010 --> 01:26:07,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: perhaps it was taken down almost immediately as it was brought up. 312 01:26:07,290 --> 01:26:40,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nevertheless, court states for the record that there are three thresholds, Attorney Mark. 500,000 on a regular basis for individual depositors. 5 million for casinos and casino operators and 7.5 million, I distinctly remember that law because I took part actively in the crafting of that law, for real estate brokers and agents because the 500,000 limit would have been too small for casino, casino operators, and real estate agents and brokers. That's the reason for the different amounts, if I remember correctly. 313 01:26:41,480 --> 01:27:03,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just one last point on this matter. Thank you, Your Honor, for that clarification. But just one last point. Section 3 For example, this does not pertain to casinos only in particular. It pertains to casinos, gaming, real estate developers, real estate brokers, targeted financial institutions, 314 01:27:05,000 --> 01:27:15,810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: and a lot more. So it's just quite perplexing how this slide could have... Zeroed in on casino transactions. Just for the record, we no longer want to belabor. For the 315 01:27:15,810 --> 01:27:16,350 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: record, 316 01:27:16,570 --> 01:27:31,470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: he's only making a manifestation, Attorney May. It's clearly an extrapolation, not a verbatim reproduction of the law. Senator-Judge Lacson, former chairman of the Committee on Banks and Financial Intermediaries as well, in 317 01:27:31,470 --> 01:27:31,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: times past. 318 01:27:32,430 --> 01:27:46,770 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: I will support your manifestation earlier because yung pag-include sa casino was passed in 2017. Yung real estate, subsequent amendment 11521. Which explains the 319 01:27:46,770 --> 01:27:47,450 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: different thresholds. 320 01:27:47,670 --> 01:27:54,170 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Magkaibang amendatory laws. At nagko-cover dun siyang sabi ni Tony Mark. Yes, thank you very much. 321 01:27:54,170 --> 01:28:28,330 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, if I may just make a very quick counter-manifestation, Your Honor, lest the public be misled into thinking that this witness, Your Honor, is coached. In fact, Your Honor, earlier, the defense counsel himself admitted that what was flashed On the screen is different from what this witness testified on. Earlier, Your Honor, when the thresholds were being discussed by this witness, aside from the casino, this witness also mentioned other covered persons who are 322 01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:39,470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: required to report covered transactions 323 01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:53,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: meeting the threshold of 5 million. Pesos, Your Honor, while what was flashed on the screen was merely Casino, Your Honor. That would already frustrate, Your Honor, any insinuation that this witness is coached. 324 01:28:53,420 --> 01:29:03,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I guess that's why he took it down as well because it did not correspond to what the witness was saying. That explains the minute, second and a half showing of that slide. 325 01:29:03,980 --> 01:29:05,380 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We'll no longer comment, Your Honor. 326 01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:05,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 327 01:29:05,700 --> 01:29:08,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Atty. Mark. You may proceed, Atty. May. 328 01:29:09,140 --> 01:29:17,370 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo, Atty. Benaventura, sa ikalawang subpina. Tungkol saan naman po yung pangalawang subpoena na inyong natanggap? 329 01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:46,560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, we received a second subpoena po dated September 28, which we received September 29. This is subpoena ad testificandum directing me to appear before this honorable court on October 1 and 2, 2026 at 10 a.m. to testify on my knowledge in the case, 330 01:29:47,090 --> 01:29:53,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: which is before the court in which the House of Representatives has impeached Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte po, Your Honor. 331 01:29:53,890 --> 01:29:57,210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At yung pangatlong sabina naman po, tungkol saan naman po iyon? 332 01:29:57,910 --> 01:30:27,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung pangatlong po, Your Honor, We received this on October 1, yung nandito po ako last time. Isa supina at testificandum po, you are hereby commanded to appear before this honorable court on October 5 and 6 at 10 a.m. to testify your knowledge in the case which is before the court in which the House of Representatives has impeached Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte, Your Honor. 333 01:30:27,930 --> 01:30:39,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Benaventura, balik po tayo dun sa unang subpoena na inyong natanggap, yung sinasabi ninyong subpoena duces tecum. Ano naman po ang ginawa ng AMLC kung mayroon man kaugnay ng subpoena duces tecum na inyong nabanggit? 334 01:30:40,640 --> 01:31:18,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, we complied with the subpoena duces tecum, Your Honor. So we submitted this to the Honorable Court. in our letter dated July 30, 2026, Your Honor. But let me clarify po that we only submitted the following po. So, covered CTRs and STRs of VP Duterte and Attorney Carpio. Summary report on VP Duterte, barcode number SR17012479. Financial intelligence report on VP Duterte. AMLC reference number RQT26730. 335 01:31:20,710 --> 01:31:40,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 730475, Financial Investigation Report on Atty. Carpio and Confidential Information Sharing, AMLC reference number IF1-26-RQT-26730475. Doon naman po sa mga Juridical entities po na na-mention, we submitted the following po. 336 01:32:06,630 --> 01:32:53,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kale88, Foods Corporation, CTRs and STRs, Badayo Fisheries Inc., CTRs only Matis City Ice Plant and Cold Storage Inc., CTRs only Geometry Security and Investigation Agency Inc., CTRs only Davao New Royal Taipan Corp., CTRs only Davao Emerging Taipans Corp., CTRs only SGT Fortune Horse Corp., CTRs only CYKT, Inc., CTRS only. Meron po kaming limang wala pong sinubmit because our database yielded negative results po. So, ito po yung lima na yun. Amianan Shores, Inc., Cabletow 88 Shipping and Marine Services, Inc., Davao Bounty Times Food Corp., Three Kids Trucking Services, Inc., and Zelta Matiem Salon, Your Honor. 337 01:32:54,260 --> 01:33:30,720 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, To abbreviate the proceedings, we will be dispensing with the authentication and identification of these documents. After all, Your Honor, these are public documents, the copies of which... have been certified by its custodian to be true copies. And Your Honor, under Section 23, Rule 130 of the Rules of Court, these are already by and of itself or by and of themselves prima facie evidence of the facts stated therein. But just for the record, Your Honor, I will be reading for the record these documents, Your Honor. 338 01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:33,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And the corresponding exhibit numbers, 339 01:33:33,360 --> 01:33:33,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I guess. 340 01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:35,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, and the corresponding exhibit numbers, Your Honor. 341 01:33:35,940 --> 01:33:36,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney 342 01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:36,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mark? 343 01:33:36,700 --> 01:33:48,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, just a comment. Your Honor, based on the rules, without the proper identification by the witness and the proper authentication of these documents as provided by law, then such will be deemed inadmissible. 344 01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:49,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor. 345 01:33:51,670 --> 01:33:53,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mae? 346 01:34:19,920 --> 01:34:26,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes your honor. These documents would already be prima facie evidence of the facts stated therein. I'm referring to public documents, Your Honor. 347 01:34:27,460 --> 01:34:47,920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, just the fact that they are publicly available, Your Honor, does not convert these documents into authenticated documents already. We already highlighted during the first portion of our presentation that these are confidential information. 348 01:34:49,070 --> 01:34:49,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly 349 01:34:49,550 --> 01:35:29,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: noted, with the indulgence of Attorney Mae, Duly noted, Attorney Mark, however, these are not merely publicly available documents, but actually public documents in the custody of a public official and part of official records. We shall entertain an objection at the proper time, Attorney Mark, but at this point, that would be premature at this time, given the documents were both submitted through the Clerk of Court. and pre-marked, if not all, by both parties. So at this juncture, the court will allow it without prejudice to Attorney Mark making the proper objection at the appropriate time. 350 01:35:29,340 --> 01:35:31,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will submit, Your Honor. Thank you. Thank you. 351 01:35:31,200 --> 01:35:31,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, you may 352 01:35:31,900 --> 01:35:32,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: proceed. 353 01:35:32,300 --> 01:40:02,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: These are the documents, Your Honor. A. AMLC letter dated April 22, 2026, exhibit... P-II-7-10-AMLC Letter B, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Vice President Sara Duterte, 2007-2025 Exhibit P-II-7-11-AMLC Letter C, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Mance Carpio, 2007-2025 Exhibit P-II-7-12-AMLC D. AMLC Suspicious Transaction Reports regarding Vice President Sara Duterte, 2007-2025, Exhibit P-11-7-13-AMLC E. AMLC Suspicious Transaction Reports regarding Mance Carpio, 2007-2025, Exhibit P-II-7-14-AMLC F. AMLC Financial Investigation Reports, Exhibit P-II-7-15-AMLC G. Summary Report on Vice President Sara Duterte, Exhibit P-II-7-15-A-AMLC H. Financial Intelligence Report of Vice President Sara Duterte, Exhibit P-II-7-15-B-AMLC Letter I. Information sharing on Vice President Sara Duterte and Manassas Carpio. Exhibit P-II-7-15-C-AMLC. Financial investigation report on Manassas Carpio. Exhibit P-II-7-15-D-AMLC. Letter K. AMLC covered transaction reports regarding GenCorp Industries. Exhibit P-II-7-16-AMLC. Letter L, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Metro City Xiao Foods Corporation. Exhibit P-II-7-17-AMLC Letter M, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Times Square Bee Foods Corporation. Exhibit P-II-7-18-AMLC N, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Great Jollibee Times Corporation. Exhibit P-II-7-19-AMLC O. AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Carpio Lawyers, Exhibit P-II-7-20-AMLC P. AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding 888 Bistro, Exhibit P-II-7-21-AMLC Q. AMLC Suspicious Transaction Reports regarding 888 Bistro, Exhibit P-II-7-22-AMLC AMLC recovered transaction reports regarding Cale88 Foods, Exhibit P-II-7-23-AMLC AMLC suspicious transaction reports regarding Cale88 Foods Corporation, Exhibit P-11-7-24-AMLC P. AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Madayao Fisheries, Inc. Exhibit P-II-7-25-AMLC U. AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Mati City Ice Plant and Cold Storage, Inc. Exhibit P-II-7-26-AMLC AML-V, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Geometry, Security and Investigation Inc. Exhibit P-II-7-27-AMLC W, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Davao New Royal Taipan Corporation. Exhibit P-II-7-28-AMLC X, AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding Davao Emerging Taipans Corporation. Exhibit P-II-7-29-AMLC AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding SGT Fortune Horse Corporation, Exhibit P-II-7-30-AMLC AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding CYKT Inc., Exhibit P-II-7-31-AMLC AMLC Cover Transaction Reports regarding City Hall Chao Foods Corporation, Exhibit P-II-7-30-AMLC 354 01:40:02,490 --> 01:40:16,010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the indulgence and permission of Atty. Mae, let the record reflect that all references of Atty. Mae to double I be Roman numeral number 2. I didn't correct you anymore, Atty. Mae. Mas madaling sabihin yung double I kesa 355 01:40:16,010 --> 01:40:16,730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Roman 356 01:40:16,730 --> 01:40:20,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: numeral number 2. But let the record so reflect that. It's ordered. 357 01:40:23,240 --> 01:40:24,340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please continue, Atty. Mae. 358 01:40:29,480 --> 01:40:50,470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Benaventura, nabanggit niyo po na yung mga documento, particularly yung CTR at STR ng respondent na isinumiti sa AMLC at ng kanyang asawa at ng mga kumpanyang pinangalanan sa subpina. Ngayon, saan po ba galing itong mga CTRs at STRs na ito? 359 01:40:52,240 --> 01:41:05,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung po mga CTRs and STRs po na to, they were reported to us by the covered person and they were extracted directly from our database. Person 1 to the subpoena po, your honor. 360 01:41:07,840 --> 01:41:18,280 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Maliban po dun sa tatlong subpoena na inyong nabanggit, ano pa po bang mga komunikasyon kung mayroon man ang natanggap ninyo kaugnay ng inyong pagharap ngayon? 361 01:41:29,960 --> 01:42:22,620 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po your honor. We received po September 29, 2026. It's through email po. I think gabi po ng September 29 ito. We received a letter, a letter addressed to me, request for summary signed by Honorable Jerville Gingibitrix R. Luistro, lead panel of prosecutors for your honor. So may request po sila. To provide summary, to indicate total number of covered transaction reports, CTR submitted, total number of suspicious transaction reports submitted, aggregate amount involved in the reported transactions, and aggregate amounts of inflows-outflows. Medyo mahaba po, pero yun po yung essentially na parang preface po ng letter nila, Your Honor. 362 01:42:23,100 --> 01:42:30,100 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At ano naman pong action ang ginawa ng YMLC kung mayroon man bilang pagtugon sa request na ito? 363 01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:54,440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So we treat this for your honor as part of the directive of the Senate Impeachment Court kasi nakalagay po doon sa letter nila. We request that person wanted the directive of the Senate Impeachment Court, a copy of the completed summaries be furnished directly to the Senate Impeachment Court and the respondent. So we prepared po a summary and in relation po doon sa previous na subpoena po na any 364 01:42:56,190 --> 01:43:21,390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: AMLC investigation report, financial intelligence report, analysis and memoranda arising from or relating to such CTRs and STRs po ay isubmit sa court. So we prepared the summary po, the request po and submitted this to the honorable court October, through email po originally, October 1 and then nagdala rin po kami ng copies nung pinapunta po ako dito to testify, Your Honor. 365 01:43:22,210 --> 01:43:27,780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kung ipapakita po ba itong summary na inyong nabanggit? Makikilanan niyo po ba ito? 366 01:43:28,040 --> 01:43:29,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 367 01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:29,680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 368 01:43:29,680 --> 01:43:37,680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, may I request the continuing authority to confront the witness with the documents that he or myself will 369 01:43:37,680 --> 01:43:37,681 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: be mentioning? 370 01:43:37,681 --> 01:43:39,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That has been granted earlier to 371 01:43:39,100 --> 01:43:41,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: both assisting counsels for the parties. 372 01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:51,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Ventura, you are being shown a summary dated October 1, 2026. What is the relation of this document with the summary that you mentioned earlier? 373 01:44:22,700 --> 01:44:31,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This is the same document, Your Honor. Pero yung binigay po sa akin, meron pong email attachment sa amin. So yun lang pong first. 374 01:44:40,150 --> 01:44:40,590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 375 01:44:40,590 --> 01:44:40,790 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor. 376 01:44:41,210 --> 01:44:42,230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Mark? 377 01:44:42,330 --> 01:45:14,660 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sa manifestation, Your Honor, it appears that the prosecution is not being entirely truthful with this honorable court because they're flashing a document, Your Honor, but it seems the document, comparing it from the original, was cropped. Because in the original document, prior to the date, Your Honor, there is an annotation that states strictly confidential and the document here as appearing in the screen now, as flashed on the screen, does not contain that portion, Your Honor. Just to manifest for the record. 378 01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:25,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. The Chair and the Clerk of Court will look into that in a while. But the manifestation is simply noted. 379 01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:33,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. And may I also reserve the right to make the necessary counter-manifestation after I go over the documents being... 380 01:45:33,900 --> 01:45:34,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may do so, 381 01:45:34,460 --> 01:45:35,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, at 382 01:45:35,020 --> 01:45:35,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the appropriate time. 383 01:45:35,740 --> 01:46:24,600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And, Your Honor, based on that manifestation as well, Your Honor, again, we reiterate our objection, Your Honor, that not only the CTRs and the STRs, but likewise, any document... that this uh this that attorney Buenaventura has by reason of his office is precisely covered by section 8 of the law. I understand that there was already a ruling by this presiding officer but then again your honor um as they present documents we will just continue to just cite the law for what it is and it says that uh he shall not reveal in any manner Any information known to him by reason of his office. The law does not make any distinction. The law says any manner. We just wanted to put it on record, Your Honor. Thank you. 384 01:46:45,840 --> 01:46:49,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Anti-Money Laundering Act as amended. 385 01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:53,240 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That will be correct, Your Honor. But for 386 01:46:53,240 --> 01:46:58,780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the avoidance of doubt, Your Honor, we will just do it in the course of the trial. Thank you, Your Honor. 387 01:46:58,920 --> 01:47:04,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Of course, Counsel, you may do so. But the Court nevertheless notes the continuing objection along those lines. 388 01:47:06,560 --> 01:47:21,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Benaventura, sa page 2 po ng dokumentong inyong tinitingnan. At inyong in-identify kanikanina lang, meron pong signature above the printed name, Atty. Ronel Benaventura. Kanino po bang signature yan? 389 01:47:21,620 --> 01:47:23,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Perma ko po ito, Your Honor. 390 01:47:24,070 --> 01:47:29,850 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon, Atty. Benaventura, sino naman po ang naghanda ng summary na inyong in-identify? 391 01:47:30,170 --> 01:47:39,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, this was prepared po by our analyst and then reviewed by the relevant officers and I also reviewed this po as well, Your Honor. 392 01:47:39,980 --> 01:47:43,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sino naman po itong mga analysts na inyong nabanggit? 393 01:47:44,000 --> 01:48:07,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, Mr. Presiding Officer, may I respectfully decline po to answer the question of the prosecution for the reason that yung aming analyst po kasi sila po yung initially nag-analyze po ng mga transactions and if I'll be exposing them here before the public po as well, that may 394 01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:20,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Draw po yung mga criminals as well as money launderers po in targeting them po, Your Honor. So I, as the Executive Director po, I take that responsibility, I take that burden po, Your Honor. 395 01:48:20,140 --> 01:48:24,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But Attorney Ronel, they helped you prepare it but you took part in its preparation, yes or no? 396 01:48:24,880 --> 01:48:26,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I took part, yes, Your Honor. 397 01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:30,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And you attest as to the preparation of this that it is an accurate... 398 01:48:30,940 --> 01:48:32,040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 399 01:48:32,080 --> 01:48:32,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 400 01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:36,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Summary of whatever data you may have in your office. 401 01:48:36,700 --> 01:48:42,560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Based on our validation as of the time we submitted this, Your Honor. 402 01:48:42,660 --> 01:48:46,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: All that you're saying is that you did not singularly prepare it. Other people... 403 01:48:46,480 --> 01:48:46,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your 404 01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:47,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 405 01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:48,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Move on, Attorney May. 406 01:48:48,720 --> 01:48:49,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, 407 01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:59,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just again, just a manifestation. Considering the manifestation of the witness now, Your Honor, I would just like to manifest for the record that our own Constitution... 408 01:49:19,870 --> 01:49:24,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The manifestation is 409 01:49:24,890 --> 01:49:25,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: duly noted. 410 01:49:57,400 --> 01:50:07,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Mae? The counter-manifestation is duly noted for the record. Atty. Mae, are you proceeding to the meat of the summary and or table of Atty. Ronel? 411 01:50:08,030 --> 01:50:12,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. But before that, Your Honor, we would like to request the marking of this document. 412 01:50:12,290 --> 01:50:12,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, you may do 413 01:50:12,990 --> 01:50:14,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: so before we pause for lunch. 414 01:50:14,410 --> 01:50:20,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-33-AMLC for 415 01:50:23,050 --> 01:50:23,270 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: the 416 01:50:23,270 --> 01:50:23,610 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: prosecution. 417 01:50:23,610 --> 01:50:58,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Clerk is directed to make the corresponding marking at the appropriate time. It's 11.45. Earlier, Senator-Judge Pia asked for time to go over the court's ruling in writing, checked against delivery. We are affording her that time and she can make the corresponding manifestation and her motion when we resume after lunch recess. We shall pause for lunch and we shall resume at 12.30 as per the Senate Presidents. 418 01:50:59,850 --> 01:51:00,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We 419 01:51:00,410 --> 01:51:01,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: submit your honor. 420 01:51:01,590 --> 01:51:06,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ronel, kain po muna kayo and then kindly return after lunch. 421 01:51:06,870 --> 01:51:07,390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The 422 01:51:07,390 --> 01:51:08,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: trial is in recess. 423 03:05:36,370 --> 03:05:37,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Court is directed 424 03:05:37,070 --> 03:05:41,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to kindly situate Atty. Ronel to the witness stand. 425 03:06:01,300 --> 03:06:03,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi ka daw kumain, Atty. Ronel? 426 03:06:04,720 --> 03:06:06,240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po, Your Honor. 427 03:06:07,260 --> 03:06:07,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Bakit? 428 03:06:08,760 --> 03:06:10,460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po makakain, Your Honor. 429 03:06:11,340 --> 03:06:11,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Bakit? 430 03:06:12,800 --> 03:06:13,980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kinakabahan po, Your Honor. 431 03:06:14,840 --> 03:06:15,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Bakit? 432 03:06:17,460 --> 03:06:18,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Trial is resumed. 433 03:06:20,660 --> 03:06:22,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Uy, wala sa TSN yun ah. 434 03:06:23,800 --> 03:06:24,840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Trial is resumed. 435 03:06:26,590 --> 03:06:32,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ronel, you understand that you will continue to testify under the same oath earlier? 436 03:06:33,050 --> 03:06:33,870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 437 03:06:35,310 --> 03:06:35,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 438 03:06:36,430 --> 03:06:52,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before you continue, Atty. Mae, Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano, as earlier agreed, we have not proceeded on the merits and merely dealt with the preliminaries of the testimony of Atty. Ronel of the MLC. You're recognized, ma'am, for your manifestation. I understand. 439 03:06:53,210 --> 03:07:05,340 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Thank you. Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. Presiding Officer, I've read the ruling and as a Senator-Judge, I would just like to put on record some observations I have on this ruling. 440 03:07:07,920 --> 03:09:42,540 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: There are two laws here. The Bank Secrecy Law, RA 1405, as amended, and AMLA Law, RA 9160, as amended. Both cases deal with the utmost confidentiality. of bank records. But there is an exception under the bank secrecy law. And this, it says that in cases of, in impeachment case, this may be divulged. This exception is not found in the AMLA law. And this is where my issue as a Senator-Judge lies. I think we'll all agree as Senator-Judges I would think, I would think, but I cannot presume, but I would think that even the defense and prosecutions, once na matapos na tong kasong to, tapos na, hindi nang maki-question pa yung legality of the proceedings. So when we proceed with an interpretation that the AMLA law now allows for bank records to be presented in the impeachment court, It puts a cloud over the impeachment proceedings, Mr. President. Why is this important? Well, we go back to the Bible, the Bible of our legal, the Bible in the Philippines for our legal rights. The Bill of Rights. No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. So ibig sabihin kung madi-deprive ka, kung tatanggal lang ka ng karapatan mo sa kaligtasan mo, kalayaan mo, kayamanan or kaarian mo, lahat yan kailangan sumusunod pa rin sa bata. So a very common example I can give is we are All entitled to liberty. So that means hindi ka pwede basta-basta arestohin. Pero kung aarestohin ka man and you will be deprived of liberty, we have to follow The constitutional guidelines and the law regarding depriving a person of their liberty. Kailangan may warrant of arrest. Tapos pag hinuli ka, bibigay yung rights mo as an accused. Sinusundan yun. So the same thing happens in every other aspect of life where there is a deprivation of life, liberty, or property. Which goes now to my observation na kung allowed naman pala mag- 441 03:09:59,670 --> 03:10:04,250 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I can only speak for myself naman. 442 03:10:06,430 --> 03:10:34,880 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Kumportable ako na walang labag na batas kasi allowed naman mag-reveal ng bank records in an impeachment trial subject to the guidelines. So that's my number one observation, Mr. President. Bakit ba kailangan unahin yung AMLA? Pero di naman ako yung nagdidikta ng order but I'm presenting it to the body kasi that would have been a more constitutionally 443 03:10:38,630 --> 03:10:49,110 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Compliant flow of presentation. Again, that is not my choice, but it is my observation. And I go now to my second point, Mr. President. 444 03:10:54,370 --> 03:11:29,120 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Again, on the due process requirement, Section 11 of our AMLA law states that The AMLC may inquire into or examine deposits or investments with any banking institution upon order of any competent court in the cases of violation of this act. So assuming, and that is an assumption, that we accept that this impeachment court is a competent court kasi wala ho yan sa ruling ng ating presiding officer. So I will just make assumptions. 445 03:11:30,780 --> 03:12:09,350 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Then, AMLC could present evidence here under Section 11 kasi allowed yan under the law, under the AMLA law sa competent court na sabihin mag-present kayo. But regrettably, Mr. Presiding Officer, months ago, na-present na itong mga AMLA records in the House of Representatives. na hindi naman sila court. I think no less than the prosecution has said during this impeachment trial na hindi sila court. 446 03:12:11,150 --> 03:12:34,770 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So, I'm just pointing this out, Your Honor, kasi every time na naki-question yung proceedings natin, nagkakaroon ng duda. Sa mind ng public, kung tama ba ang proceedings natin, kung constitutional ba siya, kung legal siya. At yun lang naman ang gusto nating lahat. Na legal yung mga proceedings natin, walang mga shortcut. So babalik po ako dun sa aking... 447 03:12:36,690 --> 03:13:02,220 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: My desire that we conduct our trial in a manner that would leave the least amount of doubt in the minds of... Anyone that we are following due process. I just put on record lahat po tong observation ko, Mr. President, because only history will judge the decisions that we make. Thank you very much. 448 03:13:03,560 --> 03:13:10,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The manifestation of Senator-Judge Pia Caetano. It's noted. Senator-Judge Pangilinan, what is your pleasure, sir? 449 03:13:13,120 --> 03:13:13,840 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you, Mr. 450 03:13:14,300 --> 03:13:31,530 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Presiding Officer. Just a quick manifestation, Mr. President, on this matter, on this issue at hand. Mr. President, for the record, this representation was one of the two primary sponsors of the Anti-Money Laundry Act in 2001. 451 03:13:34,020 --> 03:14:48,410 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Senator Ramon Magsaysay, as chairman of the Committee on Banks and Financial Institutions, defended the measure with respect to the financial institutions and the banking community and the concerns raised. This representation, Mr. President, as chairman of the then chairman of the Committee on Justice and Human Rights, we focused on defending the measure in terms of harmonizing various laws. And in this case, as correctly earlier pointed out, the Bank Secrecy Act and the proposed measure, the Anti-Money Laundering Law, we needed to harmonize both. And as for legislative intent, Mr. President, Republic versus Sandigan Bayan, the Supreme Court ruling is correct that the intention of legislation then when we defended this measure in 2001 was for the absolute prohibition or the confidentiality rather was for the covered institutions and not for the AMLA. At least that was what the minutes of the debates would 452 03:14:50,330 --> 03:15:44,830 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: clearly spell out. And so, Mr. President, if I may add, it would be absurd that a private bank in an impeachment case, trial, can be compelled to divulge bank records while the AMLA, which is the government entity that is supposed to address issues of criminal activity and money laundering, cannot. Be compelled to present AMLA transactions and records. So, Mr. President, with respect to legislative intent, with respect to the ruling of the Supreme Court on Republic versus Sandigan Bayan, maliwanag, Mr. President, that the ruling of the Chair is foursquare behind jurisprudence and the law, Mr. President. 453 03:15:48,250 --> 03:16:59,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: By way of brief reply for the record. Number one, the witness, Attorney Ronel, will be testifying on covered and suspicious transactions not on bank records specifically yet. Number two, the witness earlier pointed out upon questioning by the presiding officer regarding possible violations of Republic Act No. 9160 as amended. And in his response, and the TSN will bear me out, he replied that he considers the impeachment court as a competent court under Article or Section 11 of the law, but that is his interpretation as Executive Director of the AMLC. And the lady from Taguig is correct. Unfortunately, the court cannot dictate the sequence of the presentation of the witnesses of the counsel for the panel of prosecutors and the prosecutors. However, ideal or not so ideal, it may be from our perspective or point of view. The Honorable Marcos is recognized. What is your pleasure, ma'am? 454 03:17:01,680 --> 03:17:21,800 Sen. Imee Marcos: Simply to put on record as Senator Pangilinan did, that I too was a primary author of the AMLOC and we were very very clear about what needed to be in it and as stated by 455 03:17:37,080 --> 03:17:38,440 Sen. Imee Marcos: Senator Cayetano. 456 03:17:54,050 --> 03:18:33,020 Sen. Imee Marcos: There is no mention of an exception for impeachment proceedings. That is found, as the Presiding Officer well knows, only in the bank secrecy law under Section 2 where statutory bank secrecy and general financial... Confidentiality yield to the constitutional power of an impeachment court. And like Senator Cayetano, it behooves us indeed to be very, very careful and prudent with following not only the spirit but the technical and specific letter of the law. Thank you. 457 03:18:39,180 --> 03:18:44,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: May we now proceed with the continuation of the direct examination of Attorney May. 458 03:18:44,860 --> 03:18:49,280 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, with all due respect, I just make a quick manifestation. 459 03:18:49,280 --> 03:18:49,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, I 460 03:18:49,740 --> 03:18:54,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: forgot. With respect to the comment or manifestation of Attorney Mark? 461 03:18:54,820 --> 03:19:02,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: No, Your Honor. First, on the manifestation of the Honorable Senator-Judge regarding the confidentiality. Your Honor, we... 462 03:19:03,150 --> 03:19:16,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No need for that, counsel, given that the court already made a ruling. It was a mere manifestation and not an appeal from the ruling of the chair to abbreviate the proceedings. But I remember you making a reservation. 463 03:19:17,250 --> 03:19:18,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. To make a 464 03:19:18,590 --> 03:19:22,170 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: comment with respect to the comment or manifestation of Attorney Mark. 465 03:19:22,430 --> 03:19:31,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. We respectfully Take the strongest exception to the allegation earlier that we were being untruthful in the flashing of the document on the screen. 466 03:19:31,990 --> 03:19:32,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, I 467 03:19:32,510 --> 03:19:33,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: remember that. 468 03:19:33,230 --> 03:19:43,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. It was insinuated that we were deliberately concealing portions of the document flashed 469 03:19:43,770 --> 03:20:19,010 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: on the screen, Your Honor, but that is farthest from the truth. I believe... Atty. Vinluan is alluding to the header which states strictly confidential on the first page, Your Honor. But that was omitted by mere inadvertence. In fact, Your Honor, that very same phrase, that very same header is found in the second page that was flashed on the screen. So there was, we were not being untruthful, Your Honor. There was no attempt to mislead. Neither to conceal your honor. That would be all. 470 03:20:19,270 --> 03:20:20,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted and 471 03:20:20,270 --> 03:20:21,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: entered into the records as well. 472 03:20:21,390 --> 03:20:22,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Short response, your honor. 473 03:20:23,190 --> 03:20:24,170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Mark. 474 03:20:24,370 --> 03:20:57,890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Very briefly. Very briefly. Then in that case, your honor, may we just manifest for the record that the prosecution flashed a document that contains the header strictly confidential, which means that there may be violations of confidentiality and the fact that they flashed it on the screen Knowing that this is a public hearing, already exposed the document to each and every Filipino citizen who will watch or who is watching these proceedings, Your Honor, including the ordinary one de la Cruz on the street. Very 475 03:20:57,890 --> 03:20:59,750 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: brief rebuttal, Your Honor. 476 03:21:00,590 --> 03:21:25,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If you'll allow me, Attorney May, the court already made a ruling and the court will consider this as part of the continuing objection of the respondent in line with their objection with respect to Supposed violation of the confidentiality provisions of the AMLC law and will simply note the same as part of his continuing objection. Let's not dwell on it, Atty. Mae. Let's proceed. 477 03:21:28,940 --> 03:21:42,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Magandang hapon po ulit, Atty. Buenaventura. Kanina po bago mag-launch, in-identify niyo po yung summary na pre-prepare ninyo at kasama ng inyong mga analysts. Naupunta po tayo sa table 1 ng summary na iyon. 478 03:21:43,070 --> 03:21:43,870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Maaari po ba? 479 03:21:45,410 --> 03:21:46,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So 480 03:21:46,050 --> 03:22:02,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness has been given continuing authority to refer to the summary and/or table that he prepared, identified as Annex A and earlier requested to be marked by counsel for the panel of prosecutors. 481 03:22:03,060 --> 03:22:09,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So punta po tayo sa table 1 ng sinabing summary which is Exhibit P Roman numeral number 2-7-33. 482 03:22:11,280 --> 03:22:14,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sa leftmost column po nitong summary na ito... 483 03:22:39,820 --> 03:22:40,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted. 484 03:22:42,580 --> 03:22:45,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly proceed. Attorney May? 485 03:22:46,330 --> 03:22:56,630 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Going back, Attorney Benaventura, sa leftmost portion po nitong summary na ito, merong nakalagay ng mga salitang number of CTRs. Ano po ba ang ibig sabihin nito? 486 03:22:56,770 --> 03:22:58,070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, sorry, again. 487 03:22:59,990 --> 03:23:17,160 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You are in the interest of also the manifestations made by a couple of the Senator-Judges. They can proceed with this presentation, Your Honor, by just confronting The witness with the hard copies of the documents without necessarily flashing these on the screen, Your Honor. 488 03:23:17,320 --> 03:23:39,090 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, that is prosecutorial prerogative, Your Honor. And if this honorable court will recall, it was the defense who first started presenting documents. Flashing documents on the screen and they were accorded leniency. Now, Your Honor, we respectfully request that we be accorded the same leniency. We are flashing this document on 489 03:23:39,090 --> 03:23:42,210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: the screen for the 490 03:23:43,430 --> 03:23:58,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: benefit of everyone, especially the viewing public, Your Honor, because they do not have access to these documents so that they will be able to follow the proceedings, Your Honor. 491 03:23:58,770 --> 03:24:24,910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, just a short response. Your Honor, first of all, for the record, we have never shown any document that has been marked strictly confidential. Of course, we haven't presented, it hasn't been our turn to present documents. And even in our controverting evidence, Your Honor, we have never flashed on the screen anything that is labeled as confidential or strictly confidential for the record, Your Honor. 492 03:24:24,930 --> 03:25:23,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Just to put finesse to this issue, Your Honor, Your Honor, under... Contrary to what were submitted, Your Honor, there are exceptions for the disclosure of AMLC documents, Your Honor. And this is found in the second paragraph of Section 8A of the AMLA, Your Honor. In that provision, Your Honor, it says that the AMLC may promulgate its own rules and regulations relative to the disclosure and confidentiality. of AMLC documents. Earlier, Your Honor, this witness already testified that pursuant to that provision, they promulgated internal rules and regulations relative to disclosures of their records, Your Honor. So, Your Honor, this is no longer, this document, records that we will be presenting later, Your Honor, is no longer covered by confidentiality or cloaked with confidentiality. 493 03:25:24,660 --> 03:25:27,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just one short response. 494 03:25:27,700 --> 03:25:27,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I 495 03:25:27,900 --> 03:25:36,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: was about to say, unfortunately, Attorney May, I doubt if this will put finesse to this issue. But yes, one last point, Attorney Mark, then you can continue. 496 03:25:36,900 --> 03:26:08,450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Again, Your Honor, the strict confidentiality of documents as labeled, as the label appears, Your Honor, will be rendered futile or nugatory by the flashing of this document on the screen, Your Honor. We have to adjust to the times, Your Honor. Even the ordinary Filipino person, your honor, can access our proceedings through cellphone or the internet, your honor. And they can make unnecessary interpretations of this document. 497 03:26:10,400 --> 03:26:22,240 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: and probably whether erroneous or otherwise. And so, Your Honor, the objective of the prosecution will still be achieved if they just confront it. They don't need to condition the mind of the public. 498 03:26:22,260 --> 03:26:24,780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, the person who prepared that document with strict... 499 03:26:24,780 --> 03:26:25,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, 500 03:26:25,140 --> 03:27:27,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, if you will allow me, Attorney May, again, it will not put an end to this, really. If you will just, both sides, just keep on arguing. Allow the chair to rule. The witness was earlier confronted and asked by the presiding officer in regard to the confidentiality provisions of the AMLC law as amended and as he earlier stated with eyes wide open since he was part of the team that prepared this document. He is testifying on this document with the belief that he is in full compliance with the law or if at all would be aware of potential liabilities, if any there would be, as to what he is testifying to before this, what he described to be a competent court. That would be the lookout of Attorney Ronell, which she enters into with eyes, as I said, wide open. Now, the court notes that each and every page 501 03:27:29,450 --> 03:28:13,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Of the summary and tables to be presented by Atty. Ronel contains in the upper left corner the phrase strictly confidential as correctly pointed out by Atty. Mark for whatever purpose legal or otherwise it may serve at a later time or for whatever remedies the counsel-correspondent may avail of the court notes and confirms that indeed that statement is found in the upper left corner of each and every page of the table, including the covering letter, pages 1 and 2, concerning the same. One last point, Attorney Mark, then we continue. 502 03:28:13,770 --> 03:28:53,300 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This is actually a new point, Your Honor, considering the ruling also of the court. Can we just make for the record and just ask the witness, if he is consenting to the flashing on the screen for the viewing public to see, The soft copy of the documents that he's being confronted with. We understand that it is not his prerogative to be confronted with a document but he already mentioned a while ago or at least the prosecution mentioned that he was not the one who prepared the presentation, Your Honor. So may we just set the record straight and inquire of this witness if he is consenting or acquiescing to this presentation. Let 503 03:28:53,300 --> 03:29:01,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: me correct you, counsel. He said that he was part of the People who prepared this document and that he was assisted. 504 03:29:02,020 --> 03:29:07,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sorry, Your Honor. I'm not talking about the preparation of the document. I'm talking about the PowerPoint presentation, Your Honor. 505 03:29:08,940 --> 03:29:30,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Presiding Officer deems that proper subject matter for cross for this particular witness at the appropriate time. This is a material from the witness himself. given to the court and distributed to the members of the impeachment court and the senator-judges as well as to the parties. 506 03:29:32,820 --> 03:29:58,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Everybody, as I said, is given adequate notice ex abundante cautela with caution regarding what they may do with this document with eyes wide open and knowingly. So the court notes the reservation and manifestation of Attorney Mark You may ask the witness later on, Atty. Martin, when your time comes for a cross. Atty. May, you may proceed. 507 03:30:00,000 --> 03:30:16,490 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Odeventura, balikan ko lang po yung question ko bago po ako na-interrupt. Okay, kanina po in-identify niyo yung summary, yung table 1, sa leftmost portion po nito, sa leftmost column, meron pong salitang number of CTRs. Ano po bang ibig sabihin nito? 508 03:30:17,300 --> 03:30:27,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This refers po to the number of cover transaction reports as appearing po dun sa title po niya na Tabular Summary of Cover Transaction Reports po, Your Honor. 509 03:30:27,620 --> 03:30:34,960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Base din po sa summary na ito, ilan po ba ang CTR na nasa record ng AMLC tungkol kay Vice President Sara Duterte? 510 03:30:35,540 --> 03:30:40,580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based lang po dito sa summary po, it's 373, Your Honor. 511 03:30:41,040 --> 03:30:48,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ilan naman po ang covered transaction reports na nasa record ng AMLC tungkol sa kanyang asawa na si Atty. Manasseh Scorpio? 512 03:30:49,060 --> 03:30:53,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang number po is 363 po based on the records, Your Honor. 513 03:30:54,280 --> 03:31:10,630 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, we request this honorable court to take judicial notice of the fact that the total covered transaction reports on file with the AMLC based on the summary involving the spouses, Duterte, is 666. 514 03:31:11,910 --> 03:31:18,430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Part of the table of the witness need not be taken judicial notice of counsel. Please proceed. 515 03:31:18,650 --> 03:32:00,120 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Now punta na po tayo sa, again, tingnan po natin yung mga CTRs na nabanggit. May I invite your attention to Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-11. Sa pages 10A hanggang 10C po nito, may entry po na may reference number 04141300032809 na nagkakahalagang US$221,322.76 sa line 15. Ano po ba ang transaksyong ito? 516 03:32:09,130 --> 03:32:10,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor. Kung 517 03:32:10,910 --> 03:32:39,130 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: titignan niyo po yung exhibit P-11-7- Sorry, P-2-7-11. Sa pahina 10A hanggang 10C, meron pong entry na may reference number 04141300003-2809 na nagkakahalagang 518 03:32:40,990 --> 03:32:45,730 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: $221,322.76 sa line 15. 519 03:32:46,750 --> 03:32:47,490 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano 520 03:32:47,490 --> 03:32:48,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: ba yung transaction na ito? 521 03:32:55,880 --> 03:33:00,080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung transaction reference po is 522 03:33:06,640 --> 03:33:18,130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 041413000032809. Tama po ba? 523 03:33:18,170 --> 03:33:18,490 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. 524 03:33:18,850 --> 03:33:21,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That transaction po refers to... 525 03:33:24,360 --> 03:33:44,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It was reported by Bank of the Phil Islands, J. Vargas. May transaction code po na CWLO. Transaction date po niya is April 8, 526 03:33:45,960 --> 03:33:49,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 2013 in the peso amount of 9 million. 527 03:33:52,280 --> 03:33:58,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 109,644.80, Your Honor. This account po is... 528 03:33:58,120 --> 03:33:59,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This 529 03:34:21,020 --> 03:34:27,000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is P Roman numeral number 2-7-11. Attorney May, correct? 530 03:34:27,340 --> 03:34:28,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 531 03:34:28,180 --> 03:34:52,980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. So, this account po is owned by former President Rodrigo Duterte and... Vice President, Sara Duterte. Your Honor, this is a transaction code of CWDLO. May I request permission to confer with my documents on the AMLC reporting guidelines on this particular code? 532 03:34:53,300 --> 03:34:53,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 533 03:34:53,820 --> 03:35:05,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may do so. Continuing authority is given to you, Attorney Ronel, to consult your notes as long as you make it of record that you are consulting your notes. But authority and permission is given. 534 03:35:07,770 --> 03:35:23,090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, I'm consulting on the Annex B of the AMLC reporting and registration reporting guidelines. The code CWDLO po means its 535 03:35:24,720 --> 03:35:32,360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: withdrawal over the counter po. So, there's a client withdrawal from its deposit account through over the counter. So, that's the transaction for your honor. 536 03:35:33,870 --> 03:35:45,130 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa pages 12A to 12C. ng parehong covered transaction report. Meron din po diyang entry with transaction reference number. 537 03:35:45,310 --> 03:35:45,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hold 538 03:35:45,490 --> 03:35:52,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: on, Atty. Mae. Bakit po may peso at dollar na nakalagay, Atty. Ronel? Is that just the conversion? 539 03:35:55,880 --> 03:36:00,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Dollar account po ba ito na binindraw sa piso o piso na binindraw sa dollar? 540 03:36:03,000 --> 03:36:03,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: These 541 03:36:06,950 --> 03:36:13,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: are not two separate amounts, correct? That must be roughly the conversion rate at that time. 542 03:36:15,660 --> 03:36:45,440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. There's a mention of, in the FX code column, there's a mention of USD and there's also a mention of FX amount in the amount of 221, 322.76, Your Honor. But I cannot say, Your Honor, whether this was withdrawn over the counter in peso or in dollars, Your Honor. It doesn't appear on the records, Your Honor. 543 03:36:45,900 --> 03:36:48,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But these are not two separate transactions? 544 03:36:48,940 --> 03:36:51,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. It's just one transaction, Your Honor. 545 03:36:51,420 --> 03:36:52,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: One and the same transaction? 546 03:36:52,680 --> 03:36:53,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 547 03:36:53,740 --> 03:36:54,180 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 548 03:36:54,180 --> 03:36:56,080 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor, 549 03:36:56,240 --> 03:37:37,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: again, sorry to interrupt, but another factor comes into play because the witness is already testifying on foreign currency, Your Honor. And as we know, Your Honor, When it comes to foreign deposits or foreign currency, there is absolute prohibition. That's why we just want to put on the record that we will not be complicit to the breaking of the law in terms of the revelation and even examining these figures, Your Honor, for the record. Moreover, Your Honor, we noticed, Your Honor, that there's a date transaction there. We're already in 2026, Your Honor, and we just want to manifest for the record that they're displaying a transaction that is 2013, Your Honor, just for the record. 550 03:37:37,500 --> 03:37:39,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: May I also just make a counter-manifestation, Your Honor? 551 03:37:40,420 --> 03:37:41,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Mayne. 552 03:37:41,860 --> 03:37:49,160 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Neither do we in the prosecution, Your Honor, want to be complicit in any violation of the law, Your Honor. But in this case, Your Honor, there is no such violation. 553 03:37:50,860 --> 03:38:24,070 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: What the Foreign Currency Deposits Act prohibits is inquiry into foreign currency deposits. But the inquiry at issue here, Your Honor, is not inquiry into bank deposits. We are inquiring into the covered transaction reports. And under Section 11 of the AMLA, Your Honor, it says that regardless or notwithstanding the confidentiality provision of the Foreign Currency Deposits Act, 554 03:38:26,380 --> 03:39:16,260 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: AMLC may look into bank deposits. And also your honor, if I'm not mistaken, it's section 76 of the manual of regulations of foreign exchange transactions, your honor. It specifically exempts from the confidentiality provision of the Foreign Currency Deposits Act the reporting of covered and suspicious transactions, Your Honor. Since, Your Honor, that is already the reporting of covered transactions and suspicious transactions are already taken out from the ambit of the prohibition, then with more reason, Your Honor, that we can inquire and look into these covered transaction reports, Your Honor. 555 03:39:16,720 --> 03:39:17,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: One last point, Your Honor, please. 556 03:39:18,080 --> 03:39:24,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, the court will note the respective manifestations of counsel. Attorney Mark, for your rebuttal. 557 03:39:24,440 --> 03:40:02,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, considering also, Your Honor, that the witness himself testified in open court that he cannot distinguish whether these two figures are conversions or then the figures as flashed on the screen could mislead not just this honorable court but also the people watching. Are these aggregate amounts? Are these separate amounts? Is it one and the same amount? Just converted figures? In other words, Your Honor, this is not a press conference. This is a court proceeding, Your Honor, a formal court proceeding. And the use of these unreliable and inaccurate representations are unwarranted. 558 03:40:03,580 --> 03:40:04,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: With 559 03:40:04,020 --> 03:40:10,160 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: all due respect, Your Honor, there was no prior testimony from this witness that he could not distinguish the... 560 03:40:13,100 --> 03:40:22,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: foreign currency from It's corresponding conversion in Philippine Peso, Your Honor. It's the defense counsel who's putting words into the mouth. 561 03:40:23,140 --> 03:40:23,680 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, 562 03:40:23,680 --> 03:40:23,840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'm not. Sorry. 563 03:40:24,340 --> 03:40:24,880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It 564 03:40:24,880 --> 03:40:28,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: was the presiding officer who asked the witness and the witness answered. 565 03:40:28,500 --> 03:41:36,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, precisely the presiding officer asked to clarify because this is based on the documents submitted and I even had the exhibit exactly identified. In order to give clarity not only to the senator judges but the viewing public as well, that these are not separate transactions that should be added. This is one and the same transaction that may most likely be simply converted into peso or into dollar but refers to one and the same transaction, not a different transaction. And with the permission of both parties, while indeed pursuing the interest of your respective positions and or clients, As much as possible, let's make it about the witness instead of about the legal arguments of the Counsels, especially given that the Court already noted the continuing objection along the same lines of the Counsel for Respondent for us to move forward, however difficult it may seem to be at this point. Let's try to move forward, ladies and gentlemen, if you please. 566 03:41:36,910 --> 03:41:38,210 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will comply, Your Honor. Thank you. 567 03:41:38,370 --> 03:41:38,670 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank 568 03:41:38,670 --> 03:41:38,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you Your Honor. 569 03:41:39,460 --> 03:41:41,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Mae, kindly proceed with your questions. 570 03:41:42,020 --> 03:42:02,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Buenaventura, balik po tayo sa pages 12a to 12c ng parehong covered transaction report. Meron po dyang transaction entry na may transaction reference number ST002434015971342740. Na-follow niyo po ba? 571 03:42:02,260 --> 03:42:02,820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Pwede 572 03:42:02,820 --> 03:42:05,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po ako kung may line number po kasi medyo marami po siya. 573 03:42:05,980 --> 03:42:07,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry. Kung 574 03:42:07,120 --> 03:42:08,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: may line po kung pang ilan po. 575 03:42:09,220 --> 03:42:19,600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Line 7 po. It's in the amount of US$225,581.94. So, 576 03:42:19,680 --> 03:42:27,160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ST002434015971342740. 577 03:42:27,560 --> 03:42:30,870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. Ano naman po itong transaction na ito? 578 03:42:32,350 --> 03:42:39,330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, this is a transaction reported by Bank of Philippine Islands. 579 03:42:44,910 --> 03:42:52,550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: On the account of former President Duterte and Vice President Sara Duterte, 580 03:42:56,770 --> 03:43:03,990 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: this was transacted March 9, 2011. 581 03:43:05,710 --> 03:43:18,210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: There's a peso amount of 9,785,744.55. Then similarly po, may FX amount na naka-indicate po. 582 03:43:21,200 --> 03:43:31,080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 225,581.94. May FX code na USD. Yung transaction code po niya is DBM po your honor. Checking lang po doon sa codes. 583 03:43:45,710 --> 03:44:04,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So for note lang po your honor, I'm looking at hindi na po sa ARRG because AMLC registration reporting guidelines kasi around 2014 lang po. Ito po ay 2011 so yung lumang Old reporting guidelines po yung gamit namin. DBM means po debit memo. 584 03:44:05,730 --> 03:44:08,370 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano po ba ang ibig sabihin ng debit memo? 585 03:44:10,740 --> 03:44:19,440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po nakalagay dito, Your Honor, kung ano po yung nakalagay na debit memo po. So hindi ko po masagot po yun. 586 03:44:19,740 --> 03:44:38,630 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: For the record, Your Honor, based on the records of the MLC, aside from those that were already... identified by the witness, there are at least 40 other additional covered transaction reports involving dollar accounts registered under or connected to Vice President Sara Duterte and Attorney Manassas Carpio. 587 03:44:52,010 --> 03:44:56,510 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: The testimony to the witness is already basically testifying on behalf of the witness, Your Honor. 588 03:44:56,650 --> 03:44:56,750 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 589 03:44:56,750 --> 03:45:26,320 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, I am confused because in the previous testimonies, every time you would refer to the documents, sometimes they would say, they would object on the ground that the matter is already in the documents or these matters are already reflected in the documents. So to abbreviate the proceedings, Your Honor, instead of having or asking this witness to go over each and every account, or document which consists of voluminous pages, Your Honor, we are already making that manifestation, Your Honor. 590 03:45:26,420 --> 03:45:44,060 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: With all due respect, Your Honor, attorney May's confusion is not our concern. Again, we have to go back to specific examples when we did that. We never did any, we didn't make any manifestation as to conclusions of fact and law. We just merely relied on the testimonies of the witness, Your Honor. 591 03:45:44,600 --> 03:45:45,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The comments of counsels 592 03:45:45,900 --> 03:45:53,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: are duly noted. Let's move on, Atty. May. And henceforth, let's focus on what the witness is saying or has to say. 593 03:45:53,480 --> 03:46:37,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. I will be moving on, Your Honor, lest this be about my confusion. Okay, so punta po tayo sa page 5C of P-Roman numeral number 2-7-11. Meron po ditong dalawang transaksyong inuulat ng Philippine Savings Bank. Wilson Branch na may transaksyong reference number C122D3601833639555 at C122D3601833639554. Ano po ba itong mga transaksyon 594 03:46:37,020 --> 03:46:37,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: na ito? 595 03:46:41,350 --> 03:46:46,090 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Transactions, may we know how this is related to our impeachment case? 596 03:46:47,030 --> 03:46:47,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: First, 597 03:46:47,590 --> 03:46:47,830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, 598 03:46:49,570 --> 03:47:41,250 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: these are covered by the charges under Article 2 of the Articles of Impeachment. If I may read, Your Honor, the charges include letter A Amassed unexplained wealth manifestly disproportionate to her lawful income and earnings during her incumbency as a public official. Letter B. Failed to fully and truthfully disclose all her and her spouse's assets, liabilities, and net worth in her statement of assets, liabilities, and net worth, SALN, including in her SALN for the years, including in her, including but not limited to in her SALN for the years 2022, 2023, and 2024, Your Honor. So it's covered by the chargge under the Articles of Impeachment, Your Honor, and hence, very relevant. 599 03:47:44,840 --> 03:47:54,880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, and not just because they alleged it in the articles of impeachment, it is already relevant. That's precisely why we're making the objection, Your Honor. 600 03:47:54,920 --> 03:47:55,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair, 601 03:47:55,140 --> 03:48:28,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: we'll rule an objection. This is part of the subpoena documents which, when the court issued the subpoena, said is part of establishing the baseline of the respondent's net worth. So it'll be part of the... Narration of the witness leading to the actual net worth and or the presence or absence of ill-gotten wealth, I presume, at the end of the presentation of Attorney Ranel. The objection is overruled. Attorney, may you may proceed? 602 03:48:29,830 --> 03:48:30,670 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 603 03:48:30,930 --> 03:48:37,110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, may I request for what line is it again in the record? 604 03:48:39,590 --> 03:48:43,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: These are at the third and second to the last lines. 605 03:48:47,740 --> 03:48:50,340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Third and second 606 03:48:50,340 --> 03:48:53,080 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: to the last. Third to the last and second to the last. 607 03:48:53,440 --> 03:48:53,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay, 608 03:48:56,530 --> 03:49:15,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm seeing, so there are two transaction reference numbers here for the third to the last is C122D3601833639555 and then the second to the last is C122D 609 03:49:20,300 --> 03:49:24,820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 3601833639554. So your honor, this transaction is 610 03:49:26,610 --> 03:49:38,870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: with the institution reported by Phil Savings Bank dash Wilson. The date is December 26, 2018. 611 03:49:42,460 --> 03:50:07,350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: both in the amount of 1,945,265.88 pesos. The third to the last has a code of DTDPD while the second to the last has the code DTDYK. Based on AMLC registration and reporting guidelines, DTDPD means 612 03:50:12,700 --> 03:50:48,570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Time Deposit Placement Debit Memo. It's a placement of time deposit or special deposit, premium deposit, long-term deposits, etc. other than savings or slash current through debit of account holder's account. While the DTYK means a time deposit payment credit memo, termination of time deposit, special time deposit, premium time deposit, and the like where proceeds are credited to the account. Your Honor. 613 03:50:48,990 --> 03:51:01,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the indulgence of Atty. Ronel and Atty. Mae, when you make mention of reference numbers, you can just make mention of the last four digits perhaps or the last five digits without need of mentioning. 614 03:51:01,410 --> 03:51:01,970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay, Your Honor. 615 03:51:02,070 --> 03:51:04,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Since these are pre-marked exhibits anyway. 616 03:51:04,550 --> 03:51:05,110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 617 03:51:05,830 --> 03:51:06,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, counsel. 618 03:51:07,430 --> 03:51:36,290 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa 2019 year-end time deposits. So punta po tayo sa pakitingnan po yung page 5C ng Roman numeral number 2-7-11-AMLC Meron po ulit dyan transaction reported by Philippine Savings Bank Wilson na may transaction reference numbers ending numbers 0490 and 0489. Ano naman po itong mga transaction na ito? 619 03:51:36,850 --> 03:51:39,090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Pwede po makuha kung anong line po siya. 620 03:51:39,210 --> 03:51:40,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Line 6 and 7. 621 03:51:45,350 --> 03:51:47,310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 0490, 0489. 622 03:51:50,700 --> 03:53:05,960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This is reported by Philippine Savings Bank Wilson. With the same... with the first po, yung, pang-anim po, with the transaction code DTD-PYD dated one, January 1, 2023... Ay January 23, 2020 in the amount of 1,984,235.15 pesos. Yung second naman po, may transaction code na DTDYK dated January 23, 2020 in the amount of 1,984,235.15. Yung DTD PD po, there's yung kanina po yun, Time Deposit Placement Debit Memo. So, nagkaroon po ng placement of time deposit and then yun naman pong DTD YK, time deposit payment credit memo. So, termination of time deposit where the special time deposit, premium time deposit and the like, where proceeds are credited to account, po, Your Honor. 623 03:53:06,280 --> 03:53:40,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you. Your Honor, the prosecution will later demonstrate through the corresponding silence and supporting records. that these financial assets do not appear among the assets disclosed by Respondent Vice President for the year ending 2019. Now, punta po tayo sa page 4C ng parehong Exhibit P-Roman Numeral No. 2-7-11. Meron po ulit dalawang transactions reported by Philippine Savings Bank Wilson na may transaction reference number 4456 at 2210. Ano naman po itong mga transactions na ito? 624 03:53:42,590 --> 03:53:44,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Pwede po makuha ko anong line po siya. 625 03:53:45,230 --> 03:53:47,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Nasa lines 15 and 16. 626 03:53:48,380 --> 03:54:12,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. Sorry, Your Honor, to belabor this point, Your Honor. We've been giving leeway to the prosecution, Lawyer, Your Honor, but we don't see the relevance how pointing out one transaction per year can clearly establish a baseline as mentioned by the presiding officer. This will just add to soundbites, Your Honor. Very respectfully. 627 03:54:13,860 --> 03:54:19,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mae, we are still on P Roman numeral 2-7-11, right? 628 03:54:20,560 --> 03:54:21,280 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 629 03:54:21,800 --> 03:54:25,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So these are samples of the spreadsheet of that exhibit? 630 03:54:27,400 --> 03:54:28,120 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 631 03:54:30,690 --> 03:54:33,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And I guess you will do the same for the other spreadsheets? 632 03:54:34,250 --> 03:54:39,010 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. And if I may just quickly respond, Your Honor, because this is very important, Your Honor. 633 03:54:39,110 --> 03:54:39,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please do so. 634 03:54:39,950 --> 03:55:00,620 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Because again, your honor, the defense counsel seems to suggest that we can only ask on conduct committed prior to the incumbency of the vice president to establish baseline. But your honor, in the ruling of this honorable court, it was clear that not only... 635 03:55:02,860 --> 03:55:28,280 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Not only can we ask matters pertaining to preterm conduct to establish baseline, but also to establish pattern. And what was prohibited, Your Honor, is for the prosecution to allege new charges not covered by the articles of impeachment. That's why, Your Honor, I had to read out earlier what the articles of impeachment provided. Now, Your Honor, if it is the... 636 03:55:39,540 --> 03:57:35,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We respectfully beg to differ your honor. If you look at Section 2, Article 11 of the Constitution, nowhere is it provided that there is temporal qualification. Your Honor, the provision does not provide temporal qualification for the impeachable offenses. If we compare this with other provisions of the Constitution which would employ words, temporal qualifications, temporal limitations, like words to the import of during the incumbency within the term, these words, Your Honor, are not employed in Section 2, Article 11 of the Constitution. And that omission, Your Honor, could not by mere happenstance. It was deliberate, Your Honor. The intent of the framers of the Constitution, Your Honor, is to not limit the impeachable offenses for conduct committed in term. That's one, Your Honor. I know and I anticipate, Your Honor, the defense to again raise Duterte v. H.O.R. But, Your Honor, the statement of the Supreme Court in Duterte v. H.O.R. that the basis of the charge should be acts committed in term, it's not a binding precedent, Your Honor. It's mere obiter dictum. Because, Your Honor, if this honorable court will recall, What was involved in that case, Your Honor, was merely the one-year time bar. At no point, Your Honor, was the Supreme Court requested to rule on and decide on whether impeachable offenses may cover acts interim or preterm. Also, Your Honor, Also, 637 03:57:43,950 --> 03:58:04,960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, in Francisco v. House of Representatives, The Supreme Court specifically held that what would constitute the Senate Impeachment Court or Congress has the sole prerogative of determining what would be impeachable offenses. 638 03:58:09,140 --> 03:58:28,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Senate Impeachment Court is not short of jurisdiction or authority to determine for itself at the proper time whether conducts preterm may constitute impeachable office. That's why, Your Honor, we are not omitting from our presentation conducts committed preterm, Your Honor. 639 03:58:28,180 --> 03:58:28,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And 640 03:58:28,700 --> 03:59:16,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: also, Your Honor, there's also, Your Honor, our submission is not without, President, Your Honor, it is not without judicial mooring. In Republic v. Sereno, GR No. 237428, May 11, 2018, Your Honor, the Supreme Court has already considered misconduct that came before the respondent's appointment, specifically, in that case, her SALN record in deciding whether she could continue to hold office and whether or not former Justice Sereno's failure to truthfully file her SALN Prior to her becoming Justice of the Supreme Court. Sorry. 641 03:59:17,870 --> 03:59:28,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If I may, I'm sure you will have hopefully not a mouthful as well, Atty. Mark, before the court makes a ruling on this matter. 642 03:59:28,570 --> 03:59:29,430 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just a short 643 03:59:29,430 --> 03:59:29,630 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: repartee 644 03:59:29,630 --> 03:59:30,330 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. 645 03:59:30,450 --> 03:59:31,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, I'm not yet done, 646 03:59:31,550 --> 03:59:31,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor. 647 03:59:31,790 --> 03:59:32,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Oh, you're not yet done? 648 03:59:32,490 --> 03:59:33,070 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I'm not yet done Your Honor 649 03:59:34,830 --> 03:59:35,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly wind up, 650 03:59:35,670 --> 03:59:41,810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. May. With the indulgence of Attorney May, Senator-Judge Lacson is recognized. 651 03:59:42,470 --> 03:59:56,090 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Tutulong nalang po kami, sir, presiding officer. I vividly recall, meron kayong ruling, any document or any material prior to June 30, 2022, eh pwedeng tanggapin pero hindi iti-treat as evidence. 652 03:59:56,990 --> 03:59:58,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As evidence of another 653 03:59:58,490 --> 03:59:59,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: impeachable offense. 654 04:00:00,000 --> 04:00:02,760 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yes, Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you. 655 04:00:03,780 --> 04:00:09,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. I was just, again, kindly wind up, Atty. May, thereafter, Atty. Mark. 656 04:00:11,220 --> 04:00:13,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, you said you were not yet finished, Atty. May? 657 04:00:13,460 --> 04:00:53,570 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. In any event, Your Honor, the misconduct continues into the present term. Even if the wealth was acquired before June 30, 2022, the respondent continues to keep, enjoy it. And as alleged, conceal it. Your Honor, under Article 1456 of the Civil Code, property acquired through unlawful means is held in trust for the state. Hence, the Vice President's continued possession of it and her continued failure to disclose it in her SALN as Vice President are present-day violations, Your Honor, even if it started prior to her incumbency as Vice President. And lastly, 658 04:00:55,240 --> 04:01:02,710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, The records are necessary evidence of interim falsity, Your Honor, and to establish, again, pattern and baseline. 659 04:01:03,050 --> 04:01:03,570 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At 660 04:01:03,570 --> 04:01:04,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: the very least, Your Honor. 661 04:01:04,950 --> 04:01:07,590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: A very short report, Your Honor. 662 04:01:08,650 --> 04:01:09,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please, Atty. Mark. 663 04:01:09,950 --> 04:01:35,730 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: First of all, again, Atty. Mae, with all due respect, Atty. Mae, I don't think she's in the position to argue on behalf of the defense. And just to give a short retort on some of the doctrines that she mentioned, first of all, it is not our position that Duterte v. House of Representatives is in any way obiter dictum. It is not specified in the ruling of that case. We believe it is our position that its jurisprudence forms part of the land and is thus binding. 664 04:01:37,420 --> 04:02:23,020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To Your Honor, the reference to the Sereno case is totally unavailing considering that such was a co-warantor case and not an impeachment case, Your Honor. And lastly, Your Honor, going back to my question that Attorney May commented to, just on the issue of baseline, Your Honor, it is our understanding that the requested records are sought to establish the financial baseline and capacity only. It is not to inquire into or prosecute impeachable acts occurring outside the articles of impeachment. But precisely, Your Honor, the fact that they're presenting this is already, and this will form part of the testimonial evidence of this witness, it's already in violation, Your Honor, of what has been agreed upon. Thank 665 04:02:23,020 --> 04:02:32,060 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you, Your Honor. 666 04:02:32,380 --> 04:02:32,860 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your 667 04:02:32,860 --> 04:02:34,220 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor. 668 04:02:34,720 --> 04:03:43,680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I'm throwing this back to Atty. Vinluan, Your Honor. His understanding of the import of this honorable court's prior resolution or in his words, his seeming confusion is not our concern. Your Honor, first, I never said that it is their position that the ruling in Duterte v. H.O.R. is obiter dictum. That is our submission, Your Honor. It is our submission that that line or that statement they kept on quoting from Duterte versus H.O.R. is mere obiter dictum. That is our submission. Now, Your Honor... They are saying that Republic v. Sereno is inapplicable, Your Honor, because that is a co-waranto case. Your Honor, if we adopt that interpretation of Republic v. Sereno, then we would have one very absurd interpretation when prior conduct or preterm conduct can be considered as grounds for disqualifying 669 04:03:45,770 --> 04:04:50,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Public official from holding office, but not, but would allow, but this preter... Sorry, let me organize my thoughts, Your Honor. Okay, it will be absurd, Your Honor, if we will say, or if we will interpret Republic versus Sereno to... Belimited to co-warantor proceedings, Your Honor. In Republic v. Sereno, Your Honor, the Supreme Court said that preterm conduct can be considered as grounds for disqualifying a public official from holding public office. Now, it will be absurd, Your Honor, if preterm conducts can be considered ground for disqualifying a public official from holding office but will not consist as ground for disqualifying a public official from continuing to hold public office. So, we respectfully submit, Your Honor, that the public versus your honor is equally applicable in this case, Your Honor. 670 04:04:50,220 --> 04:04:51,600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: One sentence retort, Your Honor. 671 04:04:52,770 --> 04:04:54,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Last time, for the last time, Atty. Mark. 672 04:04:55,130 --> 04:05:01,550 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Again, Your Honor, we cannot invent jurisprudence. We cannot add interpretations to what the Supreme Court has already held. Thank you, Your Honor. 673 04:05:01,570 --> 04:05:18,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before I recognize the attorney, as Senator-Judge Alan Cayetano, Chair would like to State that lawyers can argue these legal points till kingdom come. And I doubt if you will reach or intersect or come to an agreement. 674 04:05:19,750 --> 04:05:23,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before the chair makes a ruling, Senator-Judge Allen, what is your pleasure, sir? 675 04:05:24,320 --> 04:05:29,280 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, may I just give some input and a manifestation? 676 04:05:30,440 --> 04:05:30,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may 677 04:05:30,780 --> 04:05:31,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: proceed sir. 678 04:05:31,360 --> 04:06:06,060 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: in the argument now and I apologize I have a little bit of an asthma bout so I apologize if my voice is not that consistent. So this is an impeachment trial and what is very important here is we follow the constitution, we follow the rules of the impeachment court and fairness. Having said that because this is a political process as much as a legal process We want the public to know as much as possible. We want to hold the impeachable officers accountable. 679 04:06:06,760 --> 04:06:07,280 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So 680 04:06:07,280 --> 04:06:17,160 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: may naglalaban na values dito. Yung value ng right to know. Ano ba talaga ang finances ng Vice President? Did she launder money? Did she steal money? 681 04:06:19,150 --> 04:08:01,040 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Hindi ba nila dineclare ng tama? Etc. But this is not the Wild Wild West. Just because we're curious or just because we want to hold someone accountable, that doesn't mean that we will not follow the rules. So this is the point where I ask the presiding officer about treading carefully upon sacred laws. For example, in the corona impeachment, it was against the Chief Justice and we presumed he had the support of the Supreme Court. Yet when the Supreme Court ruled that we will not look into the dollar accounts because it is strictly confidential, we did not. But the Executive Director did not even pause when it came to dollar transactions and didn't even ask if the impeachment court would allow it. There is a provision in the Anti-Mundering Law that We cannot use this law against political persecution. So where is the line? Where is the line between transparency, accountability, and when is there a strict interpretation of the law? So baseline. Okay. When we had the corona trial, we did not have Duterte versus H.O.R. yet. So, when we needed to know the baseline, we allowed documents, if I'm not mistaken, Mr. Presiding Officer, 10 years? Corona impeachment, 10 years? 682 04:08:01,320 --> 04:08:02,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If I'm not mistaken, yes, 10 years. 683 04:08:02,840 --> 04:08:05,820 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: 10 years, okay. 10 years. 684 04:08:07,450 --> 04:08:19,490 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Now, when we discussed this, we also allowed baseline, precisely just to know when it was opened, magkano yan, etc. But there was no legal arguments or there was no... 685 04:08:45,580 --> 04:08:46,760 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Mahirap na trabaho yan. 686 04:08:48,490 --> 04:11:36,690 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Senator Migs, myself, Senator Escudero were in many impeachment proceedings. Estrada, Corona, Arroyo. I wasn't in the Davide. I wasn't a participant there. But there was always a common denominator that we stop and we do not bend the law and we protect the Constitution and the law. Why? because that is more important than holding one person accountable. But in this case, it's very clear from the very articulate lady prosecutor that anyway, they have the documents and they have the numbers in the present. So why should we argue about those numbers that were before that? I mean, it's up to the executive director if he wants to risk his career and his liberty. and he wants to do a press con or they want to reveal it outside this impeachment court, okay. But you do it inside the impeachment court with all of us here when there is a ruling that prior to your term, the impeachment has to be in regard to your term and also in connection with your duties. Yun po ang prevailing Supreme Court decision. If we do not agree with that, we challenge that decision. We don't just say here that that decision does not apply because it's quite clear. How many times do we have to violate the Constitution in this court when it's very, very clear? And what's surprising for me is that it seems that you have, I'm not looking or judging yet at the quality of your evidence, but it seems that you have so much. So can we not, Mr. Presiding Officer, focus on Those elements or the amount and quality of evidence that the prosecution have that there's no question. Then argue later. Para hindi rin tayo ma-interrupt o mabitin dito. Kasi kung hindi, ang daming law student nagtatanong na sa akin, Sir, ba't ganon? Panay na lang continuing objection but we can do anything in this impeachment court. So what happens when the COA finds something Really, really bad, let's say, against a president or against senators or against congressmen. Tapos in-impeach nila. They can just dig up and look at anything. Then let's change our laws and change our rules na lang para we're not violating the law. So the judges have to be able to render the judgment out of fairness based on law. 687 04:11:38,860 --> 04:12:07,820 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: We're not arguing on the facts now, Mr. Presidente. We're not arguing on the evidence. We're arguing on the application of the law kung anong pwede at anong bawal. So, yun ang aking two cents. One, can we tread carefully? Two, pagkaklaro naman na pwede at marami naman, can't we focus on that? And then to the witness, you're not an ordinary witness. May I ask one question to the witness? Mr. Witness, have you been here in the Senate and briefed senators before? 688 04:12:11,020 --> 04:12:14,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Not in my capacity as Executive Director. 689 04:12:14,920 --> 04:12:15,180 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: In what 690 04:12:15,180 --> 04:12:15,680 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: capacity? 691 04:12:17,500 --> 04:12:24,620 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Before po with the AMLC, pag po may mga budget, sinasama po ako ng previous Executive Directors. 692 04:12:24,760 --> 04:12:30,860 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: And then did you reveal the 20-year history of two Senators here in their banking history? 693 04:12:34,630 --> 04:12:35,670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. 694 04:12:36,570 --> 04:12:44,190 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Give me a straight answer. Did you or anyone with you? Reveal the 20-year history of two senators here. It's 695 04:12:44,190 --> 04:12:44,970 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: a yes or no question. 696 04:12:45,190 --> 04:12:46,170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. 697 04:12:46,550 --> 04:12:48,310 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: You and none of your companions. 698 04:12:48,830 --> 04:12:51,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I cannot answer for my companions, Your 699 04:12:51,410 --> 04:12:51,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 700 04:12:51,450 --> 04:12:52,950 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: No, if you were there, then you can answer. 701 04:12:52,950 --> 04:12:56,310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: If I was there, as far as I recall Your Honor, no, Your Honor. 702 04:12:56,390 --> 04:13:23,070 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Okay, so I'll stop there at this point in time, Mr. President, but this is my point. Diba? Senator Trillanes is saying pareho yung hawak niya doon sa impeachment court. Paano niya nakuha yun kung tama? Then we know for a fact that some senators invited people from AMLC here then looked at the records for 20 years of two senators here. So nasan na yung batas? Thank you, Mr. President. 703 04:13:23,850 --> 04:13:28,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Dajalan. Let the chair make a ruling. Again, to reiterate. 704 04:13:30,780 --> 04:13:57,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let it be about the witness and what he will say, and not the legal arguments of both counsels. Henceforth, the Presiding Officer will no longer will note the objection and make corresponding rulings, but will no longer allow lengthy arguments on their respective positions. But may I ask, Atty. Mae, how many examples for each covered transaction do you intend to present? Because there are quite a lot. 705 04:13:58,850 --> 04:14:26,390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We're still on Table 1. It's covering 07 to 2025. Table 2 covers same period for corporations. Table 3 covers 2022 to 2025 specifically on the spouses Duterte and Carpio. Table 4 covers 2022 to 2025 for all the subject matter corporations. 706 04:14:28,390 --> 04:14:45,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And the subsequent tables pertain to, there's no year. So may I ask, how many samples will you bring up to this witness pertaining to the period 07 to 2025 on table 1? 707 04:14:46,000 --> 04:14:56,860 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Well, just a clarification, Your Honor. We will not be asking, we will not be looking into samples for all reports, Your Honor. We just selected relevant reports, Your Honor. 708 04:14:58,070 --> 04:14:58,430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, 709 04:14:58,510 --> 04:15:03,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: before you proceed to table, I presume you'll be proceeding by table. Would 710 04:15:03,160 --> 04:15:03,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that be correct? 711 04:15:03,860 --> 04:15:05,780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We will not be covering all tables, Your Honor. 712 04:15:06,080 --> 04:15:06,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 713 04:15:06,440 --> 04:15:06,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: will not 714 04:15:06,720 --> 04:15:07,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: cover all tables? 715 04:15:07,660 --> 04:15:25,880 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, select tables, Your Honor. But, Your Honor, if I may just continue with the line that I was pursuing earlier, Your Honor, just to establish at the very least, Your Honor, pattern. Pattern of non-disclosure over the years, Your Honor. I'm now in 2020, Your Honor. 716 04:15:26,060 --> 04:15:46,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, the court will allow it. But again, pattern is important. But again, this is on unexplained and or ill-gotten wealth pertaining to the period that she was or is Vice President. So kindly proceed to that point as soon as you can after you're contented with... 717 04:15:48,880 --> 04:15:51,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Establishing pattern, as you have stated. 718 04:15:51,740 --> 04:15:52,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can 719 04:15:52,220 --> 04:16:12,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: we proceed? And again, a reminder to the counsels, without prejudice to Attorney Mark making his objections known and the court ruling on it, let's try to avoid arguments and let the witness speak. And let us hear the witness. Lest it be said that we're trying to muzzle the witness as well and prevent him from speaking. It will be subject to cross-enemy at later time. 720 04:16:13,120 --> 04:16:13,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Your Honor, and 721 04:16:13,980 --> 04:16:39,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I apologize for the lengthy exchange. Okay, Atty. Bonaventura, punta po tayo sa page 4C ng Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-11, particularly lines 15 and 16 na may transaction reference numbers ending 4456 and 2210. Ano naman po itong mga transaksyon na ito? 722 04:16:46,440 --> 04:16:51,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, these transactions are reported by Phil Savings Bank, Wilson. 723 04:16:53,550 --> 04:16:54,270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The 724 04:16:58,850 --> 04:17:05,210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: first one po was reported December 2020. 725 04:17:06,830 --> 04:17:34,330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The second one po is also the same date, Your Honor. The amount for both is 2,005,340.22. With the first one po, may code na DTDPD. The second one po is DTDYK. So referring again, Your Honor, with my rules, with my transaction codes po. 726 04:17:40,430 --> 04:17:51,530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: DTDYK, Your Honor, is time deposit payment credit memo. Yung DTDPD naman po, Your Honor, is time deposit placement debit memo. 727 04:17:53,800 --> 04:18:14,130 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon punta naman po tayo sa page 3C ng parehong exhibit with transaction reference numbers ending 3006 at 7376 which are found in lines 24 and 25 of the same exhibit. Ano naman po yung transaction na yan? 728 04:18:14,410 --> 04:18:15,030 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Or 729 04:18:23,860 --> 04:18:27,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: let me rephrase that, Your Honor, to shorten the 730 04:18:27,060 --> 04:18:28,100 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: proceedings. 731 04:18:28,840 --> 04:18:38,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Benaventura, ano po ba yung Yung reference code para sa mga transaction na yan. Kahit yung reference code na lamang po. 732 04:18:41,280 --> 04:18:42,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yung una po is 733 04:18:42,800 --> 04:18:51,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: DTDPD. Yung pangalawa po is DTDYK. Yung DTDPD po, Your Honor, is time 734 04:18:54,760 --> 04:19:04,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: deposit placement debit memo. Yung pangalawa naman po is DTDYK, time deposit payment credit memo, Your Honor. 735 04:19:07,120 --> 04:19:17,960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At noong, punta naman po tayo sa page 4C ng parehong exhibit. Sorry, 3C ng parehong exhibit, which are found, or 736 04:19:19,490 --> 04:19:28,610 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: sorry, the transactions on page 3C, which are found on lines 1 and 2. Ano po ba yung transaction codes ng mga transaction na yan? 737 04:19:29,190 --> 04:19:29,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. 738 04:19:29,930 --> 04:19:30,310 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, 739 04:19:30,670 --> 04:19:30,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 740 04:19:30,810 --> 04:19:34,670 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor. Numbers ending 4571-2891. 741 04:19:35,170 --> 04:19:36,730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is your objection, Attorney Mark? 742 04:19:36,870 --> 04:19:37,410 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, then, 743 04:19:39,110 --> 04:20:05,950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, we would understand, Your Honor, that the Good Counsel raised transactions prior to 2022 before the Vice President became Vice President. But we already crossed from the previous years to 2022. And by this time, the Vice President is already the Vice President, obviously. So, in other words, Your Honor, the previous questions never established any baseline. 744 04:20:07,850 --> 04:20:17,510 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And so that's precisely the basis of our objection. The relevance, Your Honor, of those questions. Since considering that no baseline was established. Thank you, Your Honor. 745 04:20:18,230 --> 04:20:18,750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's 746 04:20:18,750 --> 04:20:36,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: a conclusion of fact, if at all, counsel. We're now on 2022. This is already within the term of the Vice President. I don't think now is the time to stop insofar as these transactions are concerned. Court overrules the objection. 747 04:20:37,630 --> 04:20:38,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. 748 04:20:38,310 --> 04:20:39,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mae, please proceed. 749 04:20:39,930 --> 04:20:52,630 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Buenaventura, ano po yung mga transaction code para sa transaction reference numbers ending 4571 at 2891 na nasa line numbers 1 and 2? 750 04:20:53,070 --> 04:20:58,830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung first po is DTDPD. The second one po is DTDYK, Your Honor. 751 04:21:00,630 --> 04:21:10,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: DTDPD, Your Honor, is Time Deposit Placement Debit Memo. Yung DTDYK, your honor, is time deposit payment credit memo. 752 04:21:11,440 --> 04:21:25,080 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your honor, just again, a quick manifestation. The prosecution will demonstrate through the corresponding silence and supporting records that these financial assets do not appear among the assets disclosed by the respondent vice president for the years 2019, 753 04:21:26,980 --> 04:21:29,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 2020, 2021, and 2022. 754 04:21:29,100 --> 04:21:29,600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: To 755 04:21:29,600 --> 04:21:31,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: establish again, your honor, pattern and a baseline 756 04:21:32,240 --> 04:21:32,920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just 757 04:21:32,920 --> 04:21:42,300 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: a counter-manifestation, Your Honor. It's highly improper for the Counsel to make manifestations including during the testimony of the witness. 758 04:21:57,040 --> 04:22:02,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Together, in proper perspective, taking into account the SALNs, if that's part of his analysis. 759 04:22:04,680 --> 04:22:12,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly move on, Atty. Mae. Let's just, again, listen to what the witness has to say with respect to the data he has with him at AMLOC. 760 04:22:12,500 --> 04:22:19,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. And can we, just one last manifestation, Your Honor. Can we just request, Your Honor, that this Honorable Court gives a directive to 761 04:22:22,120 --> 04:22:27,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To ask the prosecution from refraining making those manifestations, you can just ask questions. 762 04:22:27,120 --> 04:22:27,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We'll 763 04:22:27,480 --> 04:22:34,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: keep it on the record, Attorney May, but kindly move on and as pointed out by Attorney Mark, avoid such conclusions. 764 04:22:35,340 --> 04:22:36,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Your 765 04:22:36,060 --> 04:22:36,061 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: ... 766 04:22:36,200 --> 04:22:40,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Fact and law pertaining to what will be presented at a later time, perhaps. 767 04:22:41,160 --> 04:22:41,740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. 768 04:22:41,940 --> 04:22:42,660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I submit, Your Honor. 769 04:22:42,840 --> 04:22:43,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly proceed, Attorney May. 770 04:22:44,600 --> 04:23:07,100 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay, punta naman po tayo sa pages 2B and 2C. of the same document with transaction reference numbers ending in 1205 sa seventh line po. Ano naman po yung mga transaction codes na ito? Or ano po itong transaction na ito? 771 04:23:10,420 --> 04:23:36,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung seventh line po ay reported by Land Bank of the Philippines, Land Bank of the Fields, San Pedro. Transaction code CWDLO. The transaction date is December 5, 2024 in the amount of 2,371,000 pesos. CWDLO po is 772 04:23:39,020 --> 04:23:46,440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: withdrawals over the counter po, OTC. Client's withdrawal from its deposit account through over the counter, Your Honor. 773 04:23:46,620 --> 04:23:48,780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At kailan naman po yung withdrawal na yan ginawa? 774 04:23:55,490 --> 04:24:00,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: December 5, 2024. Ah, December 5, 2024, Your Honor. 775 04:24:02,320 --> 04:24:06,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta din po tayo sa pages 2, B and 2C ng parehong document. 776 04:24:06,520 --> 04:24:15,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sa transaction with reference number ending 7943, nasa fifth line. Ano rin po ba itong transaction na ito? 777 04:24:17,710 --> 04:24:45,110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It's a transaction reported by BDO Unibank Inc., Davao, Ariza on the date of December 20, 2024 in the amount of 5,969,000 pesos. The transaction code is CWDLO. So, same po as withdrawal over-the-counter, client's withdrawal from its deposit account through over-the-counter po, Your Honor. 778 04:24:45,800 --> 04:25:01,690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. And last for that point, pakitingnan po, same page, yung transaction reference number ending 1991 sa 6th line. Ano naman po yung transaction na iyan? 779 04:25:07,890 --> 04:25:31,750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This one po is reported by Metropolitan Bank and TCODAV slash Ecolan. The transaction date is December 20, 2024. The PESA amount is 1,700,000. The transaction code po is CENC. CENC. Let me check. 780 04:25:31,910 --> 04:25:33,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So, kailan po yung transaction nang yan? 781 04:25:35,250 --> 04:25:35,950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: December... 782 04:25:37,560 --> 04:25:47,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 2020 for your honor. Yung CENC po ay check and cash met over the counter. 783 04:26:07,450 --> 04:26:17,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pakitingnan din po yung pages 2B and 2C ng parehong dokumento. Sa fifth line, transaction number ending 7943. Ano naman po yung transaction na yan? 784 04:26:19,300 --> 04:26:34,820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It's transaction reported by BDO Unibank Inc., Davao, Riza. Transaction code is CWDLO. Transaction date is December 20, 2024. The peso amount is 5,969,000. 785 04:26:35,240 --> 04:26:36,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yung CWDLO po 786 04:26:36,940 --> 04:26:44,240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ay yung withdrawals OTC or client's withdrawal from its deposit account through over-the-counter po. 787 04:26:52,230 --> 04:27:15,660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Benaventura, kayo po ay isang kawanin ng gobyerno? At alam niyo po na ang last day ng filing ng SALN is December 31 ng bawat taon. Ngayon, yung last transaction na withdrawal ng pera na iyong nabanggit ay ilang araw po bago ang supposed last day of filing ng SALN. 788 04:27:20,960 --> 04:27:26,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: December 31 is not the last day of filing of the SALN. It is the cut-off date 789 04:27:26,300 --> 04:27:27,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that would 790 04:27:27,780 --> 04:27:32,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: be covered by the filing of a SALN at the succeeding year. 791 04:27:34,180 --> 04:27:38,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So with that limitation, the witness may answer if he knows. 792 04:27:41,460 --> 04:27:47,660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: From December 31 to December 20, that's about 11 days po, Your Honor. 793 04:27:47,940 --> 04:27:51,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Eleven days. Para po pala yung sa confidential funds. 794 04:27:51,770 --> 04:27:54,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Ronel, 795 04:27:54,850 --> 04:27:56,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: what did you say? December? 796 04:27:58,010 --> 04:28:07,970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung your honor, kasi yung transaction date po is December 20 and then yung intindi ko po sa question is if yung December 31 po. 797 04:28:07,970 --> 04:28:10,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I heard you say December 20 to 11. 798 04:28:11,640 --> 04:28:12,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pabalik yun. 799 04:28:13,640 --> 04:28:18,260 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your honor, please. Your honor, if we just a manifestation, your honor. 800 04:28:20,470 --> 04:28:20,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly 801 04:28:20,950 --> 04:28:28,090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: let the witness answer first. What did you say, Attorney Ronell? What's the period you were talking about? December 20 to 11? 802 04:28:28,730 --> 04:28:48,440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: December 20 to December 31 po na yung tanong po kanina na sa intindi ko po sa tanong is gaano kalayo or gaano katagal yung from December 20 to December 31 po. So ang sagot ko po is around 11. 803 04:28:49,410 --> 04:28:49,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But 804 04:28:49,690 --> 04:28:55,430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you're referring to the period 20 to 31. Yes, Atty. Mark. Your Honor, 805 04:28:56,190 --> 04:29:13,650 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: for the record, Your Honor, again, with all due respect to Atty. May, but she made snide remarks regarding 11 days, which we deem highly improper, Your Honor. This is not a barbershop talk. These are unprofessional remarks, Your Honor. So we just want to maintain the integrity of these proceedings. 806 04:29:15,200 --> 04:29:22,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: They keep on repeating it and so we just want these snide remarks, Your Honor, to be stricken off the record, Your Honor. 807 04:29:22,440 --> 04:29:40,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The chair will strike off the remarks of Attorney May. Also, the reference or the statements making reference to barbershop or the word snide. Both would be stricken off the record. And we are to proceed. Kindly proceed, Attorney May. Accordingly. 808 04:29:40,680 --> 04:29:58,150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Your Honor. Punta po tayo sa Atty. Benaventura. I refer you to the CTRs on Atty. Carpio, Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-12 on page 3C, lines 16 to 21. 809 04:30:20,950 --> 04:30:21,990 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 810 04:30:21,990 --> 04:30:23,030 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, 811 04:30:23,190 --> 04:30:25,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I'm referring to page 3C. 812 04:30:28,010 --> 04:30:29,750 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Lines 16 to 21. 813 04:31:14,060 --> 04:31:24,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Encasment, check encasment over the counter. You see WDLO yung withdrawals over the counter po. These are of 814 04:31:26,330 --> 04:31:38,670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: different amounts po. 15 million, 8 million, 5 million, 5 million, 3 million, 5 million your honor. The dates are December, 815 04:31:43,110 --> 04:31:47,750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm sorry, August 6, 2024. 816 04:31:50,110 --> 04:31:55,570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: August 6, 2024, August 6... Lahat po August 6, 2024, Your Honor. 817 04:31:57,690 --> 04:31:59,330 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, 818 04:31:59,510 --> 04:32:11,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: please. Your Honor, at this point, Your Honor, may we just ask for a... May we just ask for a mental health break, Your Honor, and a bathroom break as well. So then it's already 2.30 and we usually adjourn about 819 04:32:11,980 --> 04:32:12,440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: this time. 820 04:32:15,570 --> 04:32:20,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair declares a 10 minutes... Atty. Mark? 821 04:32:20,830 --> 04:32:22,630 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That would suffice, Your Honor. Thank you. Thank 822 04:32:22,630 --> 04:32:22,930 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you, Your Honor. 823 04:32:23,170 --> 04:32:27,730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair declares a 10-minute break to answer the call of nature of whatever nature. 824 04:32:28,930 --> 04:32:29,810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. 825 04:44:10,750 --> 04:44:21,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We shall continue with the direct examination of Atty. Ronel of AMLC, the Executive Director of AMLC. You may continue with your direct, Atty. Mae. 826 04:44:21,960 --> 04:44:34,850 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Atty. Benaventura, kanina po may mga binanggit kayo ng mga transaction or withdrawal sa isang araw lamang ginawa. Magkano po yung mga amount? involved dun sa mga withdrawals na iyon. 827 04:44:36,930 --> 04:44:40,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I'm referring to the withdrawals made on August 6, 2024. 828 04:45:08,230 --> 04:45:25,470 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: First is 15 million, the second is 8 million. Yung may code naman po na magkakapares na CWDLO, yung over-the-counter withdrawals, 5 million po, 5 million, 3 million, and 5 million po, Your Honor. 829 04:45:26,430 --> 04:45:34,090 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At magkano naman po ang total ng mga amount na inyong nabanggit? 830 04:45:38,150 --> 04:45:41,990 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: To assist your honor, the witness, may we provide him with a calculator, your honor? 831 04:45:43,530 --> 04:45:51,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Assisting counsels may assist in whatever shape, size, form, or manner, including giving a calculator. 832 04:45:52,230 --> 04:45:52,730 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sige po. 833 04:46:25,190 --> 04:46:26,770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 41 million po, your honor. 834 04:46:30,800 --> 04:46:36,000 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kaninong account po kinuha ang mga withdrawals na iyong binanggit? 835 04:46:56,220 --> 04:47:03,170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa account po ni Manassas Reyes Carpio. Manassas Reyes Carpio. 836 04:47:23,970 --> 04:47:28,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Manassas Reyes Carpio, Manassas Reyes Carpio, Manassas Reyes Carpio, Manassas Reyes Carpio, Manassas 837 04:47:28,730 --> 04:47:32,280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Reyes Carpio, Manassas Reyes Carpio, Manassas Reyes Carpio, 838 04:47:32,280 --> 04:47:32,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Manassas 839 04:47:32,320 --> 04:47:33,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Reyes Carpio, Manassas Reyes Carpio, Your Honor. 840 04:47:35,340 --> 04:48:02,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa pages 9C and 10C ng Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-11. Meron pong 7 na CTRs all dated March 28, 2014. Transaction reference numbers ending 2530, 2540, 2510, 2500, 2480, 2520, at 2490. 841 04:48:05,760 --> 04:48:13,240 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Last six lines of page 9C hanggang first line of page 10C. Ano po itong mga transaction na ito? 842 04:48:13,260 --> 04:48:13,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 843 04:48:13,400 --> 04:48:15,540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor, objection, Your Honor. Hold on. 844 04:48:15,780 --> 04:48:18,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is the objection? Kindly hold off on your answer, 845 04:48:18,680 --> 04:48:19,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney 846 04:48:19,300 --> 04:48:19,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ranel. 847 04:48:19,940 --> 04:48:43,370 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, considering that Attorney Manassas-Scarpio is not the impeachable officer, and this is a transaction in 2014, we are objecting precisely on the basis of relevance, Your Honor. This no longer forms part of the baseline as directed by the Presiding Officer and it's already unfair because it's not represented by any counsel in this proceedings, Your Honor. 848 04:48:43,430 --> 04:48:59,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It is council, given that the property regime governing the marriage between the Vice President and Attorney Carpio is governed by the absolute community of property and is part of the declaration of the Statement of Assets and Liabilities of 849 04:49:00,550 --> 04:49:11,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Vice President, as ruled by the presiding officer in the court when it issued the subpoena. Besides, this is still part of the subpoena. The objection, unfortunately, counsel, is overruled. 850 04:49:11,670 --> 04:49:19,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will just register a continuing objection, Your Honor, and just add the manifestation that is already beyond the term of the impeachable officer. Thank you, Your Honor. 851 04:49:19,970 --> 04:49:23,650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We note the objection of, the continuing objection of counsel. 852 04:49:23,910 --> 04:49:24,730 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. 853 04:49:24,830 --> 04:49:26,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, please proceed. 854 04:49:29,340 --> 04:49:36,680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Covered transaction reports, lahat dated March 28, 2014. Ano po itong mga transaction na ito? 855 04:49:37,430 --> 04:49:40,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, sorry po, anong line po ulit to? 856 04:49:41,980 --> 04:49:47,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Last six lines of page 9C and first line of page 10C. 857 04:49:50,240 --> 04:49:54,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung nasa page 9C po, these are 858 04:49:56,990 --> 04:50:27,570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: reported by Bank of Phil Islands, J. Vargas. May transaction code po na CTRIA. May transaction date po. Yung una ay March 28, 2014. March 28, 2014. March 28, 2014. Lahat po. March 28, 2014. Yung sa first line po ng page 10. 859 04:50:29,960 --> 04:50:33,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This is reported by Bank of the Phil Islands, J. Vargas. 860 04:50:36,230 --> 04:50:46,150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang code po ay Citria. Transaction date is March 28, 2014, Your Honor. Citria po, transaction 861 04:50:47,840 --> 04:50:52,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: codes ko po, Citria means inter 862 04:50:59,960 --> 04:51:06,040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: -account transfers, Your Honor. Movement of funds from one account to another client's account within the same bank, Your Honor. 863 04:51:07,590 --> 04:51:12,710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At magkano naman pong ang mga halaga ang involved dito sa mga transactions na ito? 864 04:51:17,260 --> 04:52:25,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, Ito po ang hawak ko po. Ang nakalagay po dito ay yung may entry po pero ang nakalagay po ay mga number sign po parang hash value po your honor. Ganun din po yung nandisa nasa page 10C. In relation to this po your honor, may I respectfully inform po that last Friday po we submitted po yung a version. We made a resubmission of the CTRs na na-affectuhan po nung may hash. Kasi when I was subpoenaed po, I started to review po the records. And then nakita ko po na may mga hash. And then when I checked with internal records namin, may value po talaga. Pero it appears that during the formatting po that we submitted, dahil maliit po yung Column, naging hash po. That was also indicated in my letter sent to this honorable court copy. CC po sa email yung parties po. I also submitted po earlier the hard copy po, Your Honor. 865 04:52:26,080 --> 04:52:34,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, may we request for a copy of the resubmitted covered transaction report at issue, Your Honor. 866 04:52:38,840 --> 04:52:40,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I submitted po. 867 04:52:40,040 --> 04:52:40,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What was the 868 04:52:40,420 --> 04:52:42,040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: request? What was the request, Attorney May? 869 04:52:42,520 --> 04:52:49,280 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Copy, Your Honor. The official copy submitted to this honorable court of the resubmitted Covered Transaction Report. 870 04:52:49,520 --> 04:52:49,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Were 871 04:52:49,600 --> 04:52:53,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the copies submitted to the court and then furnished the parties? 872 04:52:55,600 --> 04:53:09,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes. Last Friday, Your Honor, we sent an email on this copy furnished, yung email na available po sa amin with the parties po. 873 04:53:11,260 --> 04:53:15,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Earlier po, nagpareceive po kami ng copies po sa honorable court po, Your Honor. 874 04:53:16,460 --> 04:53:17,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney 875 04:53:17,060 --> 04:53:27,230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mark, do you confirm receipt via email of the document referred to by Attorney Ronel of AMLC? 876 04:53:29,160 --> 04:53:29,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 877 04:53:29,520 --> 04:53:29,700 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor, 878 04:53:29,820 --> 04:53:37,300 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: we confirmed the receipt of the actual email, but as to the rectified attachments, we're still confirming if those are complete, Your Honor. 879 04:53:37,320 --> 04:53:38,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let us know after, as soon as you know. 880 04:53:38,900 --> 04:53:39,120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, 881 04:53:39,120 --> 04:53:39,700 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. Thank you. 882 04:53:39,960 --> 04:53:41,040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly proceed, Attorney May. 883 04:53:41,180 --> 04:53:44,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, may we request a copy of the resubmitted copy? 884 04:53:45,420 --> 04:53:47,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I thought you were furnished a copy as well. 885 04:53:48,200 --> 04:53:55,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. Can we use our own copy, Your Honor? Because it's not formatted the same manner that... 886 04:53:55,020 --> 04:53:57,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Ronell, did you bring an extra copy? 887 04:53:57,480 --> 04:53:58,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 888 04:54:02,590 --> 04:54:10,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Assisting counsel may approach in order to facilitate the marking later on of this document. 889 04:54:10,660 --> 04:54:14,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, ito po yung receiving copy po ng AMNC po. 890 04:54:15,410 --> 04:54:18,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, would you like that copy, Attorney May? 891 04:54:19,250 --> 04:54:23,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: For the reference of the witness. For the reference of the 892 04:54:23,050 --> 04:54:23,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: witness. Okay, you may proceed. 893 04:54:28,410 --> 04:54:32,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Can we know po ulit yung page number po nung kanina po? 894 04:54:33,730 --> 04:54:34,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Last Last 895 04:54:34,770 --> 04:54:41,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: six lines of 9C and first line of page 10C. 896 04:54:42,540 --> 04:54:43,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 897 04:55:17,600 --> 04:55:18,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: year is this, Attorney May? 898 04:55:20,210 --> 04:55:22,750 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 2014, Your Honor. March 28, 2014. 899 04:55:27,040 --> 04:55:27,920 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry po, March. 900 04:55:28,850 --> 04:55:30,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 28, 2014. 901 04:55:30,730 --> 04:55:31,330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: March. 902 04:56:07,090 --> 04:56:13,950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ito po. May I confirm lang po that for the first one po, yung last... 903 04:56:15,830 --> 04:56:18,390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: TXN rep number niya ay 2530. 904 04:56:18,730 --> 04:56:19,530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. 905 04:56:20,130 --> 04:56:20,810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: And 906 04:56:20,810 --> 04:56:30,010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: then 2540, 2510, 2500, 2480, and then 2520 po. 907 04:56:30,110 --> 04:56:33,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. At meron pa pong 2490. 908 04:56:34,430 --> 04:56:38,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo yung 2490. So yung first po. 909 04:56:41,550 --> 04:56:57,830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang amount involved po doon is P41,721,035.62. Yung second po is P55,131,747.32. 910 04:57:01,720 --> 04:57:19,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Pangatlo ay 20 million pesos. Yung pong pang-apa, 20 million pesos. Yung pang-lima, 16,852,832.94 pesos. Yung huling-huli po sa page na ito, 20 million po. Doon sa kabila naman po ay 20 million din po. 911 04:57:20,370 --> 04:57:25,610 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At magkano naman po ang kabuuhan ng lahat ng transaksyon noong March 28, 2014? 912 04:57:27,670 --> 04:57:30,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, can I verse the calculator po kung pwede? 913 04:57:51,850 --> 04:57:57,370 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, may we just manifest for the record that the CTRs do not have any total, Your Honor. It 914 04:57:57,370 --> 04:58:10,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: does not have any totals and I can do that without a calculator. You just add the 20 times 4 plus 16. So, you're talking 96,852,832.94. 915 04:58:10,880 --> 04:58:16,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: There are two more accounts, Your Honor, mentioned by the witness. There's also the 41,721,000. 916 04:58:17,000 --> 04:58:17,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's 917 04:58:17,020 --> 04:58:17,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: not on the screen. 918 04:58:20,070 --> 04:58:21,090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's not on the screen. 919 04:58:23,110 --> 04:58:24,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We're talking about this date only, correct? 920 04:58:25,150 --> 04:58:27,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. These are also... 921 04:58:27,550 --> 04:58:28,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So there's one more? 922 04:58:28,770 --> 04:58:36,010 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: There are two more, Your Honor. There's 41,721,035 pesos and 62 centavos and there's... Ah, 923 04:58:36,010 --> 04:58:36,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and 924 04:58:36,050 --> 04:58:38,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that one. All-in-one-day, counsel. 925 04:58:38,710 --> 04:58:39,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 926 04:58:43,230 --> 04:58:43,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Do 927 04:58:43,630 --> 04:58:44,670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I compute pa po? 928 04:58:44,830 --> 04:58:45,210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, please. 929 04:58:45,370 --> 04:58:50,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, please. May 41 pa pala. Attorney, 155. Hindi ko na kayo. 930 04:59:02,630 --> 04:59:03,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your 931 04:59:40,540 --> 04:59:48,980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor, 173,705,615.88 pesos, Your Honor. 932 04:59:49,160 --> 04:59:50,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: All in one day, Attorney Ranel. 933 04:59:53,490 --> 04:59:54,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's what you testified earlier. 934 04:59:56,170 --> 04:59:58,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Yes, Your Honor. 935 04:59:58,230 --> 04:59:58,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Both 936 04:59:58,670 --> 05:00:01,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: withdrawals... Deposits and or transfers? 937 05:00:02,000 --> 05:00:03,040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Or all three? 938 05:00:03,420 --> 05:00:08,040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The code po is CTRIA, inter-account transfer po. 939 05:00:12,520 --> 05:00:15,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: CTRIA po means inter 940 05:00:17,760 --> 05:00:23,560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: -account transfer. So this is a movement of funds from one account to another client's account within the same bank. 941 05:00:24,260 --> 05:00:25,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Within the same bank? 942 05:00:25,820 --> 05:00:26,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 943 05:00:26,480 --> 05:00:28,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But different transactions? 944 05:00:30,920 --> 05:00:35,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. They have different transaction codes, so they are treated as unique transactions. Okay. 945 05:00:37,340 --> 05:00:41,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Canino po bang accounts ang involved sa mga transactions na yan? 946 05:00:42,560 --> 05:00:43,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 947 05:00:56,570 --> 05:01:00,440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor, again, sorry, Atty. Benaventura. But 948 05:01:00,440 --> 05:01:00,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: again, 949 05:01:02,620 --> 05:01:27,820 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, they're already presenting an aggregate total in their present... Presentation, Your Honor, particularly PowerPoint presentation. I'd just like to manifest, Your Honor, that the CTRs do not indicate any aggregate total or grad total for that matter because it creates a perception, Your Honor, whether it's correct or wrong. So, may we just ask, Your Honor, that this be taken down? 950 05:01:28,500 --> 05:01:57,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Unfortunately, counsel, the court will allow it to stay because it's quite clear given the intervention of the presiding officer that these are Unique accounts in one day. And he further explained that these are mere transfers from one account to another. But that these are unique transactions. So allow me. Atty. Ronell, so these are not double book transactions. These are unique transactions. 951 05:01:58,220 --> 05:02:03,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As reported to us, Your Honor, because they have separate transaction reference numbers. 952 05:02:03,160 --> 05:02:03,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So these 953 05:02:03,620 --> 05:02:05,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: are unique transactions. These are 954 05:02:05,060 --> 05:02:07,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: not... Based on records, I would say yes, Your Honor. 955 05:02:07,600 --> 05:02:10,000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi pinasok at nilabas at binilag nyo 956 05:02:10,000 --> 05:02:10,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ng dalawang beses? 957 05:02:10,960 --> 05:02:17,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I would say no, Your Honor, based on the code that was used, Your Honor, and separate transaction reference. 958 05:02:18,000 --> 05:02:18,200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So 959 05:02:18,200 --> 05:02:18,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is 960 05:02:18,260 --> 05:02:19,840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it proper to total it? 961 05:02:22,900 --> 05:02:25,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I don't have a total here in the records, 962 05:02:26,000 --> 05:02:26,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 963 05:02:26,300 --> 05:02:26,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is 964 05:02:26,560 --> 05:02:36,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it proper to total it? Because these are unique transactions. Tama lang po ba na itotal natin na yan ang bilang o laki ng transaction sa loob ng isang araw? 965 05:02:37,690 --> 05:02:38,910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I cannot say if 966 05:02:38,910 --> 05:02:42,210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: it is proper or not, Your Honor. 967 05:02:42,510 --> 05:02:42,730 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We 968 05:02:42,730 --> 05:02:50,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just manifest for the record, Your Honor, that he said that he doesn't know if it's proper or improper. And then we will just register our continuing objection, Your Honor. 969 05:02:50,130 --> 05:02:50,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We 970 05:02:50,410 --> 05:02:51,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: note the answer of the 971 05:02:51,350 --> 05:02:52,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: witness. You may continue, Attorney May. 972 05:02:52,950 --> 05:03:00,550 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. By considering, Your Honor, the answer of the witness, that if he doesn't know whether it's proper or improper, can we take it down now? 973 05:03:01,890 --> 05:03:04,770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If he would have said it was improper, I would have counseled. 974 05:03:06,060 --> 05:03:06,480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We 975 05:03:06,480 --> 05:03:06,740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: will submit 976 05:03:06,740 --> 05:03:06,920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: your 977 05:03:06,920 --> 05:03:07,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: honor. Thank you. 978 05:03:07,460 --> 05:03:10,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let it stand. Let it stay. Attorney May, please continue. 979 05:03:10,460 --> 05:03:18,820 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Attorney Benaventura, meron po tayong naiwan na question hanging. Kanino pong mga accounts ang involved dito sa mga transactions na ito? 980 05:03:21,550 --> 05:03:36,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung una po ay kay former President Rodrigo Roa Duterte and Sara Z. Duterte. So, this is a joint account po. Yung pangalawa po is Rodrigo Roa Duterte, Sara Z. Duterte. 981 05:03:41,080 --> 05:03:49,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Lahat po doon sa page 9 kay former President Rodrigo Roa Duterte, Zara Duterte. 982 05:03:57,090 --> 05:03:59,930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Rodrigo Roa Duterte and Zara Duterte, Your Honor. 983 05:04:00,570 --> 05:04:08,990 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At just for clarification, Atty. Buenaventura, ilan po dyan sa mga transaction na yan involve the amount of 20 million pesos? 984 05:04:19,420 --> 05:04:20,560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apat po, Your Honor. 985 05:04:24,370 --> 05:04:48,870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Based po dun sa CTR na may transaction reference number ending in 5277 of Exhibit P-RN No. 2-7-11, page 9C, line 18, 7 to the last line ng resubmitted covered transaction report. Magkano po ang halaga ng policy? 986 05:04:50,800 --> 05:04:54,610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry, paano po ulit yung ending number po? Non-transaction reference? 987 05:04:55,510 --> 05:04:59,230 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 5277, page 9C, line 18. Ano 988 05:05:11,070 --> 05:05:12,150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: po iyong transaction na ito? 989 05:05:12,350 --> 05:05:29,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This one po is reported by BPI Aya Life Assurance Corporation doing business under the name and style of BPI Aya formerly BPI Filam Life Assurance, BPLAC Corp. Yung transaction date po ay 20... 990 05:05:32,170 --> 05:05:39,150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: April 1, 2014, in the amount of 20 million po, the transaction code is NPLIC. 991 05:05:42,570 --> 05:05:45,170 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano po ang ibig sabihin ng NPLIC? 992 05:05:46,250 --> 05:05:47,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: NPLIC po, Your Honor. 993 05:06:06,880 --> 05:06:11,560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: NPLIC po is purchase of life with investment insurance policy cash. 994 05:06:12,420 --> 05:06:17,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Magkano po ang halaga ng transaction na iyong nabanggit? 995 05:06:17,220 --> 05:06:17,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung 996 05:06:17,520 --> 05:06:19,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 20 million pesos po, Your Honor. 997 05:06:21,450 --> 05:06:46,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you. Punta naman po tayo sa Suspicious Transaction Reports on the Vice President and Attorney Man, Scorpio. Kanina po in-explain ninyo kung ano ang suspicious transaction or kung ano ang mga suspicious transactions. Ngayon, base po sa inyong summary, which is Exhibit P-11-7, sorry, P-R2-7-33, and 998 05:06:49,580 --> 05:06:58,710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: the STR submitted to this honorable court, ilan po ba ang STRs Nang AMLC on Vice President Sara Duterte? 999 05:07:00,810 --> 05:07:08,270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based on our summary po, Your Honor, 34 STRs for Vice President Sara Z. Duterte. 1000 05:07:08,510 --> 05:07:14,270 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ilan naman po ang STRs na nasa record ng AMLC patungkol kay Atty. Manassas Carpio? 1001 05:07:15,720 --> 05:07:18,280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: For Atty. Manassas Carpio po, 30. 1002 05:07:19,120 --> 05:07:22,860 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And what is the period covered by these STRs? 1003 05:07:25,170 --> 05:07:28,830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This one po is 2007 to 2025, Your Honor. 1004 05:07:29,190 --> 05:08:04,840 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Ngayon, Atty. Benaventura, kindly refer to the STRs on Vice President Sara Duterte, which is Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-13, particularly pages 6B to 6C. Meron po dyang entry with transaction reference number VDV ending number 0917 sa line 1. Transaction Code STRE dated November 15, 2019. Involving a premium payment to Mercantile Insurance Company, Inc. 1005 05:08:05,060 --> 05:08:07,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, sorry po. Anong page po ulit? 1006 05:08:08,060 --> 05:08:13,100 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pages 6B to 6C. Line 1. 1007 05:08:13,540 --> 05:08:21,170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Line 1 po. The ending TXN reference number po is 0917. 1008 05:08:21,870 --> 05:08:32,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 0917. Opo. Base po dyan sa dokumentong yan na iyong hinahawakan, bakit po siya iniulat bilang suspicious transaction? 1009 05:08:32,530 --> 05:08:41,690 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. Again, this is a 2019 transaction already, Your Honor. We don't see the relevance, Your Honor, how this will establish baseline. So for that purpose, Your Honor. 1010 05:08:43,370 --> 05:08:45,110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can we just ask that this be 1011 05:08:45,110 --> 05:08:45,630 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: taken down? 1012 05:08:45,670 --> 05:08:45,710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, 1013 05:08:45,710 --> 05:08:45,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: we 1014 05:08:45,770 --> 05:08:52,850 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: are not establishing baseline, we are establishing pattern, which is an allowable purpose for the presentation of documents. 1015 05:08:52,850 --> 05:08:54,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Same ruling, 1016 05:08:54,210 --> 05:08:54,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: counsel. 1017 05:08:54,610 --> 05:08:54,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'll 1018 05:08:54,870 --> 05:08:56,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just register a continuing objection to this line 1019 05:08:56,870 --> 05:08:57,290 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: of questioning. 1020 05:08:57,290 --> 05:08:57,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Continuing 1021 05:08:57,410 --> 05:08:58,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: objection noted. Witness may answer. 1022 05:09:00,250 --> 05:09:00,810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based 1023 05:09:00,810 --> 05:09:10,870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: on records, Your Honor, as reported by the covered person, the reason indicated is graft and corrupt practices, Your Honor. 1024 05:09:12,460 --> 05:09:23,530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Maaari niyo po bang tingnan yung narrative na nakasaad sa dokumento ngayon? Ano po kung mayroon man ang nakasaad sa narrative na ito? Maaari niyo po bang basahin? 1025 05:09:28,540 --> 05:09:48,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Nakalagi po, Your Honor, several news outlets recently released a list of individuals and corporations identified as being involved in the Department of Public Works and Highways, DPWH Flood Control. Issue prompting the filing of a suspicious transaction report, Your Honor. 1026 05:09:48,340 --> 05:10:09,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Atty. Buenaventura. Punta naman po tayo sa transaction reference number ending 4031, line 2, transaction code STRE dated July 4, 2019, involving a premium payment to Mercantile Insurance Company Inc. Bakit din po ito na report as suspicious transaction? 1027 05:10:10,980 --> 05:10:22,040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, The reason indicated here is based on records as reported by the covered person is graph and core practices, Your Honor. 1028 05:10:27,470 --> 05:10:33,990 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Maaari niyo po bang basahin din kung ano ang nakasulat sa narrative na nakasaad sa dokumento kung mayroon man? 1029 05:10:35,430 --> 05:10:56,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, based on the records po, Your Honor, in the narrative portion, it mentioned Several news outlets recently released a list of individuals and corporations identified as being involved in the Department of Public Works and Highways' DPWH flood control issue prompting the filing of a suspicious transaction report. 1030 05:11:10,870 --> 05:11:12,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So just for the record, Your Honor. 1031 05:11:12,710 --> 05:11:17,730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And proper subject matter for cross. The Chair will not be the one to ask that question. I think 1032 05:11:17,730 --> 05:11:17,731 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. 1033 05:11:17,731 --> 05:11:17,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that's 1034 05:11:17,870 --> 05:11:29,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: a proper subject matter for cross given the date that it's 2019. You may do that when your time to cross-examine counsel comes. But we note your manifestation, Counsel. 1035 05:11:29,520 --> 05:11:29,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. 1036 05:11:30,060 --> 05:11:41,870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Just for clarification, Atty. Buenaventura, kanino bang account ang involved dyan sa mga suspicious transactions na inyong nabanggit? Yung dalawang suspicious transaction reports na inyong nabanggit. 1037 05:11:47,670 --> 05:12:00,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The indicated po rito is Zara Z. Duterte, Zara Z. Duterte, yung una po. And then yung based on records po nakalagay ay Zara Z. Duterte, Zara Z. Duterte, Your Honor. 1038 05:12:01,560 --> 05:12:25,540 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you. Punta naman po tayo sa pages 5A to 5C. There is an entry with transaction reference number ending in 3283, line 8. Second to the last line. Transaction code STRA dated August 1, 2024 involving a transaction with Philippine Savings Bank. Bakit naman po ito na report a suspicious transaction? 1039 05:12:26,640 --> 05:12:29,280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry po your honor, ano pong line po siya? 1040 05:12:29,340 --> 05:12:29,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Line 1041 05:12:29,940 --> 05:12:34,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 8, second to the last line. Pages 5A to 5C. 1042 05:12:35,340 --> 05:12:40,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung 3283 po yung TX and REF number po. So... 1043 05:12:44,070 --> 05:12:53,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, the reason po indicated here based on records is drug trafficking and related offenses, Your Honor. 1044 05:12:53,650 --> 05:13:00,830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At ano naman po ang nakasaad sa narrative sa dokumento kung mayroon man? Maaari niyo po bang basahin din ito? 1045 05:13:03,400 --> 05:13:04,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, 1046 05:13:06,060 --> 05:15:09,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: it indicated here that based on the narrative, Your Honor, based on the records, I will read only Per checking today, 01 August 2024 in Manila Bulletin News website, Davao City Rep. Pulong Duterte, VP Sara's husband Carpio, 8 others charged in 6.4 Shabu importation in 2017. A criminal complaint for alleged importation of 602 kilos of Shabu worth 6.4 Billion in 2017 was filed on Wednesday, July 31 against Davao City 1st District Rep. Paolo Z. Duterte, Vice President Zara Duterte's husband, Atty. Manases Carpio, and 8 other persons before the Department of Justice DOJ. Also charged in the complaint filed by former Senator Antonio Trillanes... the 4th, were Davao City 1st District Counselor Nilo Abelera Jr., former Bureau of Customs, BOC Commissioner, Nicanor E. Faeldon, former BOC Director of Investigation, Intelligence Service Neil Anthony Estrella, retired Army Colonel, Allen Capuyan, businessman Pompei Perez, Taiwanese businessman Charlie Tan under account number 078111042107, peso account and Your Honor, earlier po, just to cut lang po, Your Honor, Mr. Presiding Chair, earlier po, I was asked yung may foreign currency po and I note po that the Senator, one of the Senator judges made a manifestation on this one po. So, I'm now pausing po because there's also a mention of a other non-peso account po indicated here. Should I continue to read, Your Honor? 1047 05:15:11,970 --> 05:15:35,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, there was no earlier ruling against that. It was only a manifestation and or caution raised by the counsel. Again, the earlier questions of the Presiding Officer to you would apply. Unless there is a concomitant objection to that effect, which the Chair or the Court may be required to make a ruling on. Yes, Senator-Judge Aimee. 1048 05:15:37,520 --> 05:15:50,320 Sen. Imee Marcos: Yes, I would like to make that objection, Presiding Judge, please, as it's very, very clear and well established in both the ARAP and Corona impeachment that foreign currency accounts are excluded. 1049 05:15:51,680 --> 05:16:01,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Actually, the Chair is prepared to... Read and spread into the records an extended ruling on this matter, but for brevity. 1050 05:16:04,230 --> 05:16:39,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In the corona impeachment, if that is being cited as a precedent, it was allowed. In fact, not even by AMLAC itself, but by the ombudsman presenting a document submitted to her. I'm referring to former Justice, former Ombudsman Morales. And the Court allowed her to testify on the foreign currency deposits covered by the AMLC. Second, again, the Chair is prepared to make an extensive ruling on this since we looked into this possibility that an objection would be raised. 1051 05:16:43,290 --> 05:16:49,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If it pleases the Senator-Judge, the Chair can either spread it to the record simply or read the same. 1052 05:16:53,230 --> 05:17:10,090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Anyway, for brevity, Republic Act No. 6246 should be looked at in line with Republic Act No. 9160, especially in relation to the BSP regulations on the matter. Let me just read 1053 05:17:10,090 --> 05:17:11,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: our extended ruling. 1054 05:17:12,430 --> 05:17:41,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the information of the senator-judges, for the information also of counsel-respondent, in case they will be exercising any of the remedies that they are free to exercise, and to enrich the records of the impeachment court as well, allow the chair to read the extended ruling for the record. With your indulgence, Attorney Ronel, I'm sure you've been sitting there for quite some time. And also with your indulgence, Attorney Mae, given the objection of the counsel, the objection of Senator-Judge Aimee, rather. 1055 05:17:45,220 --> 05:18:49,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The provision on absolute confidentiality under Section 8 of Republic Act No. 6426 or the Foreign Currency Deposit Act of the Philippines must be read in harmony with Section 9C of Republic Act No. 9160 or the Anti-Money Laundering Act, which expressly requires covert institutions to report covert and suspicious transactions to the AMLC. In making such reports, RA number 9160 provides that covered institutions and their employees shall not be deemed to have violated RA number 6426 as amended. Clearly, the confidentiality afforded to foreign currency deposits does not exempt the latter from the reporting and inquiry provisions under AMLA. Section 76-2 of the BSP's Manual of Regulations on Foreign Exchange Transactions explicitly provides that the absolute confidential nature of foreign currency deposits under the FCDA shall not apply to 1056 05:18:52,010 --> 05:23:59,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: A covered institution that reports foreign currency deposits in covered transaction reports or suspicious transaction reports to the Anti-Money Laundering Council pursuant to Section 9C of Republic Act No. 9160 as amended. Thus, the suspicious transaction reports or covered transaction reports submitted to the AMLC do not require the status of absolute confidentiality do not acquire, rather, the status of absolute confidentiality merely because they contain information concerning foreign currency deposit accounts. In the aforesighted case of Republic v. Sandiganbayan, the Court ruled that AMLC cannot invoke the confidentiality provisions under the AMLC to prevent disclosure of information on covered and suspicious transactions. The Court did not distinguish between peso and foreign currency denominated transactions. The Court said that unlike covert institutions, the AMLC is mandated to investigate and use the information it has to institute cases against violators. Therefore, the prohibition and confidentiality provisions of AMLA cannot apply to it. Otherwise, it would contravene its direct mandate under Section 7 and unduly hamper criminal prosecution of money laundering activities. This Court also clarifies that it is not at this point compelling the bank or covered institutions to disclose information concerning foreign currency deposits maintained by the respondent. Rather, the witness is simply being asked to testify on records and financial information that are already in his lawful possession through reports submitted by covered institutions to his office. The confidentiality of foreign currency deposits cannot operate to place information lawfully reported to the MLC beyond the reach of the impeachment court. A contrary interpretation would be untenable. While covered institutions are required to flag transactions regardless of currency denominations of the MLC and are at that instance exempt from the confidentiality provisions of the FCDA, the MLC, despite being the government body legally authorized to receive and analyze those reports, would be prevented from explaining or authenticating lawfully acquired information before a competent tribunal. Such an interpretation would substantially impair the statutory functions for which the MLC was created and would run contrary to the Supreme Court's ruling again in Republic v. Sandiganbayan. The aforementioned distinction finds support in the proceedings during the impeachment trial of Chief Justice Renato Corona, where then-Ombudsman Conchita Carpio Morales was presented as a hostile witness by the Respondents' counsel to try and establish that she illegally looked into foreign currency bank accounts of then-Chief Justice Corona. Ombudsman Morales was permitted to testify on information contained in an AMLC report concerning foreign currency bank accounts attributed to the former Chief Justice. In the course of her testimony, it was established that she sourced information from a report submitted by AMLC and not directly from the banks. Asked by then-Senator Miriam Defensor Santiago whether it was the Ombudsman Morales' opinion that the powers of an Ombudsman under the Constitution could override the FCDA, Morales answered that the Anti-Money Laundering Act covers the currency or legal tender of the Philippines or any other country, including dollars, citing Section 3C of Republic Act No. 9160. The confidentiality according to foreign currency deposits has not been treated by the Supreme Court as an infallible rule that admits of no exception. The Court in Salvacion v. Central Bank has allowed the issuance of a writ of execution, for example, on a foreign currency deposit to serve the ends of justice, despite a provision in the FCDA which absolutely exempts foreign currency deposits from attachment, garnishment, order, or process. It further said that allowing the strict application of FCDA to perpetuate injustice would quote, negate Article 10 of the New Civil Code which provides that in case of doubt in the interpretation or application of laws, it is presumed that the lawmaking body intended right and justice to prevail. The Court finally invoked the same principle in China Banking Corporation v. Court of Appeals, GR 140687, when it permitted an inquiry into foreign currency deposits alleged to have been unlawfully taken from their rightful owner, saying that the law and secrecy of foreign currency deposits was not intended by the legislature to perpetuate an injustice. Accordingly, the Court hereby denies the 1057 05:24:01,380 --> 05:24:16,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Rules against, rather, the objection and the manifestation as well of counsel. Let this be spread completely in the records, checked against delivery for the proper remedies to be made available to the parties as they may deem fit. 1058 05:24:17,720 --> 05:24:18,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. 1059 05:24:18,620 --> 05:24:19,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, 1060 05:24:19,180 --> 05:24:19,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Martin. 1061 05:24:19,580 --> 05:24:22,380 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just to correct the record, I didn't make any objection. 1062 05:24:22,580 --> 05:24:30,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, it was Senator-Judge Imee. Noted. Attorney May, you may proceed and Attorney Ronel, you may answer. Based on the Court's ruling. 1063 05:24:30,850 --> 05:24:31,370 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. 1064 05:24:35,790 --> 05:24:44,710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Benaventura, punta po tayo sa... Ay, sorry. Can you kindly continue reading the narrative? 1065 05:24:45,070 --> 05:24:47,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He was about to answer in relation to Foreign Currency, counsel. 1066 05:24:49,590 --> 05:24:50,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1067 05:24:50,830 --> 05:24:52,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ginulat mo naman kami doon, Atty. 1068 05:24:54,790 --> 05:25:51,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So apologies po for the delay, Your Honor. Thank you po. So I'm answering lang po based on the strict ruling of this honorable court. So let me continue reading lang po. Under account number 078111042107, a peso account, and 122141006077, a dollar account. which was opened in PS Bank Davao, Madrazo, and PS Bank Wilson Branch on 03 September 2012 and 03 July 2017, respectively. He presented IBP ID NO 49705 and firearm license NO 1 or I 8001340. During account opening, we declare source of income as lawyer. Both account was still active with average daily balance for the past six months amounting 1069 05:25:53,900 --> 05:26:06,150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 519,787.44 and USD 6,411.05 respectively, Your Honor. 1070 05:26:08,120 --> 05:26:34,330 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Punta po tayo sa pages 3a to 3c. Meron pong entry with transaction reference number ending in 5093, line 3. Transaction Code STRA dated December 5, 2024 involving a transaction with BDO Life Assurance Company, Inc. Ano po ba ang dahilan bakit ito na report a suspicious transaction? 1071 05:26:35,310 --> 05:26:42,770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based on records, Your Honor, the reason indicated is malversation of public funds and property, Your Honor. 1072 05:26:42,950 --> 05:26:46,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Maaari niyo po ba ulit basahin ang nakasaad sa narrative? 1073 05:26:46,670 --> 05:26:46,910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, 1074 05:26:47,010 --> 05:27:18,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: at this point, Your Honor, again. This is why we precisely objected to the use of the slide, Your Honor, because this is already processed, Your Honor, and already involves an interpretation. It creates to the public that the account or the suspicious transaction for Sara Duterte Carpio is involved in the malversation of public funds and property or confidential funds, when in fact it is only a note under 1075 05:27:20,560 --> 05:27:53,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: On the bottom portion, Your Honor, which is based only on news articles and the witness does not have any personal knowledge on that, Your Honor. We understand, not yet finished, we understand, Your Honor, that he's merely reading it for the record, Your Honor, but it creates the same effect, Your Honor, as to the viewing public who cannot distinguish, Your Honor. So, it is highly unfair, Your Honor, to present it this way. Similar to the previous slides, the respondent accused, Sara Duterte, is involved in these subject matters. 1076 05:27:54,140 --> 05:27:54,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: May 1077 05:27:54,580 --> 05:28:04,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I ask, Atty. Ronel, or Atty. Mae, for that matter, is confidential funds found? 1078 05:28:04,330 --> 05:28:06,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. In the 1079 05:28:06,050 --> 05:28:07,170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: report itself? 1080 05:28:07,550 --> 05:28:11,210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. That's the reason I'm requesting the witness, Your Honor, to read the narrative. 1081 05:28:11,450 --> 05:28:11,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In 1082 05:28:11,870 --> 05:28:13,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: open and closed parentheses. 1083 05:28:15,050 --> 05:28:21,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: No, Your Honor. It's not in open. But the word confidential fund, it's mentioned, Your Honor. Confidential funds. 1084 05:28:22,190 --> 05:28:31,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is merely a synopsis of the reason why it was reported as a suspicious transaction. 1085 05:28:31,980 --> 05:28:38,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. Both malversation of public funds and property and confidential funds are mentioned in the very same report. 1086 05:28:38,620 --> 05:28:45,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ronel, who prepared this document, this actual report? It was prepared by MLC? 1087 05:28:46,350 --> 05:28:54,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This one po is just, this is suspicious transaction report submitted by BDO Life Assurance Company. 1088 05:28:54,310 --> 05:28:54,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So it 1089 05:28:54,930 --> 05:28:56,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: was the bank that submitted it? 1090 05:28:56,790 --> 05:28:57,330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, your honor. 1091 05:28:57,670 --> 05:29:12,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So yung summary na nakikita niyo, do you see it? Yung nakalagay na malversation of public funds and property, confidential funds. That is part of the narration of the suspicious transaction made by BDO. Is that correct? 1092 05:29:13,470 --> 05:29:15,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Like the 1093 05:29:15,370 --> 05:29:20,570 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: previous one that you read that based it on a newspaper article, it was part of the submission of BDO. 1094 05:29:21,110 --> 05:29:25,570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I can't recall the institution but it was submitted by the covered person. 1095 05:29:25,730 --> 05:29:26,090 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, 1096 05:29:26,090 --> 05:29:51,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: can you read in its entirety what is written in the reason na sinamarizes malversation of public funds and property open close parenthesis confidential funds for the court to understand? If it is an accurate synopsis of what is actually written to describe why this transaction was classified as suspicious. 1097 05:29:52,500 --> 05:30:20,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, I'm reading based on the records. So, open bracket 1, close bracket. The client is alleged to have misappropriated confidential funds to her office in the office of the Vice President . COA has reportedly disallowed PHP 73M of confidential funds in 2022 under the OVP . 1098 05:30:29,870 --> 05:30:53,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Close bracket. Other accusations hurled against her include involvement in a drugs syndicate along with her father, Rodrigo Duterte. Open parenthesis. Former Philippine President. Close parenthesis. Open parenthesis. Inquirer 202411 1, 3, close parenthesis, Your Honor. That's the narrative with... 1099 05:30:53,630 --> 05:30:54,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, 1100 05:30:54,070 --> 05:31:03,010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in your experience, Attorney Ronell, in reporting suspicious transactions, do banks rely on newspaper reports and articles and or similar sources? 1101 05:31:03,590 --> 05:31:32,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: They may rely, Your Honor, but usually, whether they will exclusively rely in assessing the account would vary because under our... Reporting guidelines, the threshold is suspicion because it's a suspicious transaction po. But it's based on the appreciation of the reporting entity or reporting person, profile of the client, and yung nakikita po na adverse news po. 1102 05:31:32,500 --> 05:31:33,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So hindi 1103 05:31:33,440 --> 05:31:38,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: po kayo nagsulat nito, report ito na natanggap nyo mula sa covered institution? 1104 05:31:38,620 --> 05:31:39,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1105 05:31:39,440 --> 05:31:41,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is a verbatim reproduction of that? 1106 05:31:41,640 --> 05:31:41,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 1107 05:31:41,840 --> 05:31:42,200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 1108 05:31:42,400 --> 05:31:42,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 1109 05:31:42,940 --> 05:31:43,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 1110 05:31:43,420 --> 05:31:43,620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor. 1111 05:31:44,440 --> 05:31:44,920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Even 1112 05:31:44,920 --> 05:32:18,070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: then, Your Honor and it's clear Your Honor that the slide is not a verbatim. representation of what was read by Atty. Buenaventura. This is already processed. It doesn't indicate that it's from Rappler, from a news article. It just says malversation of public funds and property confidential funds. And it's under the suspicious transaction reports of Sara Duterte Carpio. So for an untrained-ire owner, if I see this slide, it necessarily associates Sara Duterte to malversation. It's highly improper and unfair, Your Honor. 1113 05:32:18,410 --> 05:32:19,190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's why the 1114 05:32:19,190 --> 05:32:52,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Court clarified. Where it came from and if it is an accurate enough of a synopsis or summary of what was written to clarify not only to the public but more especially to the senator-judges that it should be as read by the witness and this is only for visual or demonstration purposes and nothing more because what the witness read is actually what is contained in the report coming from the covered institution whether it is actually BDO or some other bank. Would that be correct, Attorney Ronella? 1115 05:32:53,180 --> 05:32:54,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1116 05:32:54,560 --> 05:32:57,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, the objection is overruled, counsel. Witness... 1117 05:32:57,300 --> 05:32:58,360 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 1118 05:32:58,360 --> 05:32:58,540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor. 1119 05:32:58,680 --> 05:32:59,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Mark. 1120 05:32:59,620 --> 05:33:04,020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We'll just register a continuing objection, Your Honor, to the use of these props, Your Honor. 1121 05:33:04,100 --> 05:33:04,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But each 1122 05:33:04,420 --> 05:33:18,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: time, rest assured, Attorney Mark, each time, the presiding officer will make sure that the synopsis, summary, or whatever is written in the demonstration or visual will be an accurate representation of 1123 05:33:19,850 --> 05:33:21,750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The small letters in the 1124 05:33:21,750 --> 05:33:23,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: actual document. 1125 05:33:23,850 --> 05:33:27,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano is recognized. What is your pleasure, ma'am? 1126 05:33:31,960 --> 05:33:44,440 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Mr. Presiding Officer, with all due respect, I disagree with the ruling of the Presiding Officer on this matter. Can we show it again, please? 1127 05:33:45,640 --> 05:33:47,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly show the last slide again. 1128 05:33:58,800 --> 05:34:36,120 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: While we appreciate the Presiding Officer Asking questions that would clarify what this document means. I can recall a previous document much earlier in the day that there was no clarification. So we're continuing to show these documents that on its surface, tells a very different story. And we're sitting here for five hours, maybe we'll sit for another three hours, another five hours. Even in our minds, and with the permission of my seatmate, 1129 05:34:36,420 --> 05:36:33,320 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: yung impression din naming dalawa na, ay ano ba yun? Ah, may kaso pala siyang malversation. And sure, the presiding officer clarified it. It changes the whole thing na, ah, nabasa lang pala ng bangko sa rappler. Ah, nabasa pala niya sa inquirer. We don't even know the context of that. We don't even know, honestly, didn't even know that banks do that. So... This is like reading volume 2 of a comics and I never even saw volume 1 of the comic book, Mr. Presiding Officer. So, I just want to express my concern on the clarity of this document presented when the prosecution is very well capable of eliciting this information from the witness without coming up with This document that does not state what the witness said and tomorrow will bear us out that the news will be full of information like this with some may bother to have the clarification that the presiding officer correctly pointed out but many won't. So, anyway, I'll just go ahead and mention the matter that I don't believe there was a clarification made. And if I missed it, well, I'm only human. I didn't see it. In one of the very first documents presented where the total amount of the transaction was shown, I think it was 3 billion, it was in bold. And then under that, in ordinary font, not in bold, it identified yung deposited and withdrawn. Bakit yun? Hindi naka-bold. Bakit ang nakabold yung total ng in and out and in and out? So sampung piso pasok, labas ng piso, balik ng piso. 1130 05:36:34,830 --> 05:37:01,220 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: That was very misleading. I didn't hear anyone try to clarify that. But that is the confusion that these kind of documents present, Mr. President. I'm just one who's expressing my objection to this ruling, Mr. President, but I do object. to the continuing presentation of these kind of documents that do not show an accurate picture of what the witnesses is testifying to. Thank you. 1131 05:37:02,160 --> 05:37:10,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We note the statements made by the Honorable Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano. What is the pleasure of Senator-Judge Alan Cayetano? 1132 05:37:10,940 --> 05:37:17,760 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Just on that point, Mr. Presiding Officer, I was going to take this up afterwards but if you look at the document, very... 1133 05:37:20,010 --> 05:37:22,470 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: If you look at the document closer, 1134 05:37:22,830 --> 05:39:06,070 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: that's why I want to relate it with the section in the law, I think it's section 16, about political persecution. If you look in page 3, drug trafficking and related offenses, Vice President Sara Duterte together with her siblings Sebastian Z. Duterte and Paulo Z. Duterte are being linked to financial transaction in relation to the war on drugs. During the House Quad Com Committee hearing, former Senator Antonio Trillanes confronted Duterte. So this is the cycle. Someone gives a statement, whether in the media or in any other forum, someone like Senator Trillanes, and then a committee It may be the House or the Senate will take it up and then mababasa ito ng bangko when they're supposed to know their clients and then they will put it in their remarks and then they will submit it back to the AMLA and then AMLC now will look at their transactions then go back to another committee in the House and give them this report and if you look at page 5 Nandiyan din yung narrative pati sa malversation of public funds. But look at the end of page 5. We would also appreciate any additional intelligence you could provide on the subject matter conduct identified in this report. Notification of any outcome associated with this report will be very helpful. Kindly quote AMLC reference, etc., etc. The point is, Mr. President, if a report like this went to any 1135 05:39:07,970 --> 05:39:12,200 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Professional Investigator. Hindi isusulat to kagad eh. 1136 05:39:13,830 --> 05:40:22,600 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Titignan kung eto ay marites, eto ay chismis, or meron kasunod na impormasyon. So I don't mind this information being here if it wasn't just newspaper reports and just statements. Diba? If the bank did something else or the AMLC did something else to show na actionable na or medyo may laman itong impormasyon na to. But just to put that information there, it will just go into circles, Mr. President. So, this trial is to clarify and not to confuse. At the end of the day, we want to either convict the Vice President and everyone believe that she did do the crime or the impeachable offense and that the evidence supported that, or that she is acquitted. And clearly, she did not do the impeachable offense and there's no evidence to support that she did. But if we're going to have this kind of documents na paikot lang, then sasabihin sa supportahan later on. Of course, that's up to the prosecution na supportahan to later on with other. But anong klaseng trabaho to anti-money laundering council? 1137 05:40:24,540 --> 05:40:29,100 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Nandiyan ang Banko Sentral 1138 05:40:31,500 --> 05:41:23,870 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: As the head of the council, nandiyan ang mga matitinding secretary ng atin pong gabinete. And then you will have a report like this na newspapers, and then sasabihin ganon, and then just come up with the numbers that anyone can interpret differently. So, Mr. President, I just want to put on record that this is such a dangerous precedent. Pwede ka lang mag-target na kahit sino. Sabi mo may senador dito. Tumaas yung SALN. O e kaya lang nasa construction siya. O kaya nasa law enforcement siya. O kaya nasa Customs siya dati. O kaya nasa ganito siya dati. Baka ganito nangyari. Then suddenly you're going to look at all his transactions. And then suddenly, ayan na, nasa news na, nasa kaso na. And that's precisely why the lawmakers put that provision against political persecution. 1139 05:41:25,490 --> 05:42:22,640 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So, I expect evidence differently from the prosecution. I don't take it against the prosecution to submit this because it's your job to present everything. I take it against the AMLC. Magsasubmit kayo ng report ganito na narinig lang natin lahat, nabasa lahat sa diaryo, sa committee, din isasubmit din sa kabilang committee. Mr. President, medyo mabigat po talaga. This is an impeachment court. We're talking about the future of our country here. We're talking about trust of people to our leaders. I mean, I really, maybe in the budget hearing, do nating himayan, but I cannot see how the AMLC can come out with, they should have just given a report saying that ang alam lang ng bangko kung ano alam natin lahat na nasa dyaryo. Pero to put your, to put AMLC there and then to put a signature, 1140 05:42:25,030 --> 05:42:28,710 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: This is just an official Marites report in the end. 1141 05:42:28,870 --> 05:43:34,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor, personally, I do not disagree with you on that point. This was an eye-opener too for this representation. But as you said, this is a proper subject matter for the exercise of the Senate's oversight function as to how the law is being implemented or interpreted by covert institutions. To be fair to the MLC, they simply received this report from a covert institution. As earlier asked by the Chair, this did not come from them. They are merely mirroring the report submitted to them by a covered institution. And that covered institutions at times do submit it based on available information. whether from news or media reports or other information. Dahil sabi nga niya, suspicious dapat from the point of view of the covert institution. Again, I will join the good gentleman at the proper time in the exercise of the Senate's oversight function, perhaps, to make sure that this is not abused or in any way used outside of the intent of Congress. Senator-Judge Pangalina is recognized. 1142 05:43:35,730 --> 05:43:48,890 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. And just to add to the point raised by the Presiding Officer, precisely, it was the banks that submitted that suspicious transaction report. 1143 05:43:49,310 --> 05:43:49,950 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: They 1144 05:43:49,950 --> 05:43:56,970 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: worded the basis of their suspicion. And 1145 05:43:56,970 --> 05:43:58,170 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: I 1146 05:43:58,170 --> 05:44:31,880 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: would give the banks the benefit of the doubt. I don't know. How much exactly are the amounts involved in such bank accounts? For all we know, well, we don't know, but the banks know. And therefore, they know, based on the amounts that are in the accounts, whether it does appear suspicious or not. So I will give the banks the benefit of the doubt. These are our banks, our financial institutions are responsible. 1147 05:44:46,290 --> 05:44:57,290 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: I will give them the benefit of the doubt, Mr. President. 1148 05:44:57,770 --> 05:45:35,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Giving them the benefit of the doubt, however, Senator-Judge Panglian does not take away even my curiosity, for example, if this is indeed how they base what is suspicious and what is not. And how often do they do this? And if these are already at the level of, from the point of view of the DOJ and the Ombudsman, actionable already. At that level, at their level, perhaps not yet. As stated by Attorney Ronel earlier. Yes, the comments and manifestation of Senator-Judge Panglinan are well taken and duly noted. 1149 05:45:36,170 --> 05:45:36,770 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Just 1150 05:45:36,770 --> 05:45:37,430 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: two points, Mr. President. 1151 05:45:38,430 --> 05:47:04,320 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Turo ng nanay at tatay ko, pag nakarinig ako ng chismis at tinanong ako, huwag kong ikakalat yung chismis. Kasi pagka ang chismis ay kinalat ko, credibility ko kasama rin. So for example, ngayon, senador ako. So kung Bubulungan ako ni Brother Robin habang nag-ano tayo ngayon. Huy, yung isang congressman o yung isang governor, yung isang senador, ganito. Alam mo, ganito yung kanyang kinikita. Tapos, siningan ako ng report ng Senate President ng impeachment court. Isulat ko yun with my name. I'm endorsing it. So, my point is the MLC has the power to take a look at the reports of the bank. And dito mismo, sa page 6, Triggered in connection with the House Quad Com Committee hearing on former President Roderick War on Drugs as well by news report alleging the involvement of VP Sara in 6.4 billion Shabu importation 2017. Yung 2017 lumabas na yun pero hindi pa rin sila flinag nung mga bangko. Pero this time around, flinag nung mga bangko nung vice president na siya. So I see the point of Senator Pangilinan. And I agree with him that if the bank in their independent assessment sees the flag or the suspicious transactions, flagged it, 1152 05:47:04,620 --> 05:47:54,750 Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: hindi baliktad to eh. They were just following the ordinary AMLA na pagka mahigit 500,000, etc. Nila-label nila ng tama. Nilagyan lang nila ng narrative after nila mabasa sa dyaryo. There's nothing in this report that shows the bank went beyond the newspaper reports. And we all know, I can say a lot of things here now, lalabas yan sa ano, sa dyaryo bukas. O tapos lahat tayo may ganito ng report sa anong mangyayari po sa atin. So I agree with the presiding officer, let's take this up during our legislative duties. But again, In the end, fairness ang kailangan natin dito sa impeachment court. We made certain mistakes during the corona trial. If we just do it again, then we didn't learn from our mistake. Thank you, Mr. President. 1153 05:47:55,090 --> 05:47:59,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Allen. Senator-Judge Riza, on this point? 1154 05:48:00,500 --> 05:48:01,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, ma'am. 1155 05:48:04,010 --> 05:49:37,010 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Just a brief point at salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Ngayong maghapon, pinakikinggan ko lang ng kalma, kalmado. lahat ng mga ito. And I will do the same pag natapos na ang prosecution at ang defense naman magpipresenta ng kanilang mga witnesses at sa kaibidensya. At kaya po ako kalmado, Mr. President. Just to paraphrase, turo din naman po ng nanay at tatay ko presuming regularity on the part of government agencies lalo na pag tinawag po ng prosecution or later ng defense para Mag-testigo sa Korte. Hindi ko muna ipe-presume na ang anumang bagay o anuman ay tsismis hanggang marinig ko po lahat. I think, Mr. Presiding Officer, sa bahaging ito ng trial, bago natin matimbang ng kompleto at mapaniwalaan o hindi ang sinasabi ng AMLAC, I think at this point iniintay din po natin yung marinig natin mula sa mga bangko, BIR at kung sino pa man. Bago natin masabi kung alin ang chismis lamang, alin ang totoo o hindi. And I am patiently waiting for that, Mr. President. So just to put that on record, out of fairness sa isa sa mga resource persons or resource institutions natin, Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer. Salamat po, Mr. 1156 05:49:37,170 --> 05:49:37,790 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Presiding Officer. 1157 05:49:39,770 --> 05:49:41,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark, you were raising your hand earlier. 1158 05:49:42,880 --> 05:49:45,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just a short manifestation, Your Honor, 1159 05:49:45,340 --> 05:50:07,300 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just in light of the interjections already made. Again, it is not our objective to muzzle the witness and I understand if he can testify on this particular portion of the document, Your Honor, but we just wanted to clarify our objection that it is really the use of this certain visuals, Your Honor, that we are objecting to, Your Honor. 1160 05:50:08,720 --> 05:50:09,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You're 1161 05:50:09,380 --> 05:50:15,000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: referring to the autoptic preference of the document? 1162 05:50:15,320 --> 05:50:24,500 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor, because again, these are already processed and it aims to mislead. Not that it aims, but it could mislead, Your Honor. 1163 05:50:24,720 --> 05:50:25,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As 1164 05:50:25,120 --> 05:50:35,840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: far as the Presiding Officer can and will, we will ensure accurate or faithful coverage of what was written 1165 05:50:35,840 --> 05:50:38,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in the original document as contained therein. 1166 05:50:38,520 --> 05:50:39,280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. 1167 05:50:39,340 --> 05:50:42,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, please proceed. Where were we? 1168 05:50:43,460 --> 05:50:43,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then 1169 05:50:43,980 --> 05:50:49,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the objection is overruled and the witness may answer or you may continue to propound questions. 1170 05:50:49,700 --> 05:51:18,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. We will now be moving to the next points, Your Honor. So punta naman po tayo sa total combined amount. Balik po tayo sa table 1 of the summary. na inyo pong in-identify kanina. Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-33. Diyan po sa summary niyan, may lumalabas po na terminong total combined sa ikaapat na row. Ano po ang tinutukoy dito? 1171 05:51:21,430 --> 05:51:37,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, yung total combined po is the aggregate amount of reported transactions of CTRs and STRs of both Vice-President, Sara Zito-Turten, Atty. Manassas Carpe, Your Honor. So that is the total combined po. 1172 05:51:38,270 --> 05:51:50,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pwede po tayong pumunta sa fourth row naman. Magkano po ang total combined na nakasaad sa dokumentong? Yan, 1173 05:51:50,340 --> 05:51:50,840 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: yung 1174 05:51:50,840 --> 05:51:51,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: summary. 1175 05:51:51,950 --> 05:51:54,650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yun po bang sa aggregate inflow and outflow po? 1176 05:51:55,280 --> 05:52:10,520 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Apo, base po sa Table 1 at sa mga CTR at STR na isinumiti. Sa kagalang-galang nahukuman ito, magkano ang kabuong halaga ng CTR at STR kay Vice President Sara Duterte at kay Attorney Mance Manassas Carpio? 1177 05:52:11,900 --> 05:52:20,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung total combined po as indicated here is 4,400,089 1178 05:52:22,270 --> 05:52:30,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ,940.70 pesos, Your Honor. 1179 05:52:31,430 --> 05:52:47,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Benaventura, nung tumistigo po kayo sa House Committee on Justice, may kabuohang halagang isinumiti ang AMLC. Ano po bang nabago kung mayroon man sa pagitan ng isinumiti ngayon at ang mga dokumentong isinumiti ninyo sa kagalang-galang nakukumang ito? 1180 05:52:48,470 --> 05:52:59,770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, hindi ko po maalala exact figure po pero nasa around 6.7 billion po yung sinabit po namin nun, Your Honor. Let me clarify lang po kasi yung sinabit po namin nun, 1181 05:53:01,330 --> 05:54:14,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Iba po yung scope po nung naging coverage po noon. Yung subpoena po at that time was from 2006 to 2025 po at saka banks lang po yung involved po doon. Yung subpoena po na nareceive po namin from this honorable court from 2007 to 2025 at lahat po ng covered persons. So hindi lang po bangko. Then i-note ko lang po that there was a request for correction po ng isang covered person regarding 13 regarding 13 CTRs filed in relation po dun. So nagkaroon po kami ng validation nun. Kaya nung nagsabit po kami nung July 30 to this honorable court po na-correct na po namin yun. So ngayon po na pinagawaan po kami ng summary of itong tabular summary po, iba na po yung figures for the three reasons po na nabangin ko po. Iba po yung scope, iba po yung year, iba po yung reporting entity at saka yung nagkaroon po ng correction po, Your Honor. 1182 05:54:15,480 --> 05:54:22,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Dahil po dun sa tatlong rason na binanggit niyo po, ano na po ang naging total na halaga? 1183 05:54:23,410 --> 05:54:36,470 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So yung total na halaga na po, total combined na po as indicated po here, Your Honor, it's 4,400,089,940.70, Your Honor. 1184 05:54:36,670 --> 05:54:44,230 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At para sa kaalaman ng lahat, and for clarification also, ano po ang sakop ng 4.4 bilyong halaga? 1185 05:54:45,740 --> 05:54:57,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This is all CTRs and STRs involving Vice President Zarad Z. Tuterte and Attorney Manassas R. Carpio, 2007 to 2025, Your Honor. 1186 05:54:57,960 --> 05:55:10,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Diyan din po sa summary na inyong hawak, meron din pong term na lumalabas, inflows. Ano po ba ang ibig sabihin ng salitang ito? 1187 05:55:10,820 --> 05:55:29,810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung inflows po, actually Kinuha po namin ito based dun sa letter po ng prosecution. So ang naging pag-intindi po namin dito is anything po na pumasok po sa account nito pong individuals po na naka-indicate po dito po. 1188 05:55:32,140 --> 05:55:38,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ginagamit din rin sa summary na yan ang termine ng outflows. Ano naman po ang ibig sabihin ng outflows? 1189 05:55:38,420 --> 05:55:51,680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So ganoon din po kinuha po namin yung term kasi yung po inando sa letter ng prosecution po. So anything naman po na lumabas po sa account po ng individuals po na nakalagay dito. 1190 05:55:52,160 --> 05:56:08,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Base po sa summary na inyong pinipair at sa mga CTR at STR na isinumite sa korteng ito. Magkano po ang kabuhang inflows para kay Vice President Sara Duterte at kay Atty. Manasseh Scorpio para sa taong 2007 hanggang 2025? 1191 05:56:09,500 --> 05:56:23,360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Reading lang po from the tabular summary provided, it is 1,630,351,607.68 Pesos po, Your Honor. 1192 05:56:23,540 --> 05:56:27,440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Magkano naman po ang kabuhang outflows para sa parehong panahon? 1193 05:56:28,510 --> 05:56:39,090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Reading lang po on our tabular summary, Your Honor, it is 1,308,123,526.68, Your Honor. 1194 05:56:39,250 --> 05:56:48,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Attorney Benaventura, sa inyong summary, meron din pong item na nakalagay undetermined inflow and outflow. Ano po ba ang tinutukoy ng item na ito? 1195 05:56:49,030 --> 05:57:07,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, naglagay po kami ng footnote dito to explain po kasi this means po Fund transactions that could not be reliably classified as inflows or outflows due to insufficient, incomplete or ambiguous sender and or beneficiary information. 1196 05:57:08,880 --> 05:57:39,660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kaya po may incomplete, insufficient or ambiguous po kasi may mga report po sa amin before. 2014 yung lumang system po namin. Ngayon po nag-i-improve pa po yung system na wala pong nakalagay o hindi po namin ma-determine kung inflow po siya or outflow. Ang nakalagay lang po doon is nagkaroon po ng transaction. So yun po yung mga lumang system namin. Maaaring din po, kasama rin po dito yung hindi po namin ma-determine based doon sa report. 1197 05:57:59,560 --> 05:58:10,400 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Magkano ang kabuhang undetermined inflow at outflow para kay Vice President Sara Duterte at kay Atty. Manassas Carpio para sa 2007 hanggang 2025? 1198 05:58:11,560 --> 05:58:24,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, I'm just reading lang po on the tabular summary po. It's 1,461,614,806.24 pesos, Your Honor. 1199 05:58:25,380 --> 05:58:33,960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Nabanggit niyo rin po kanina na 1.6 billion ang total inflows. Kung ganun po, how much ang total transaction na identified na papasok? 1200 05:58:36,920 --> 05:58:48,680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung inflows po na naka-indicate po dito, Your Honor, it's 1,630,351,607.68 pesos, Your Honor. 1201 05:58:48,820 --> 05:58:59,860 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Nabanggit niyo rin po kanina na 1.3 billion ang total outflows. Kung ganun po, how much po ang total transaction na nilaba? I mean, na nilabas or palabas? 1202 05:59:00,340 --> 05:59:13,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, ito po yun, Your Honor. Yung 1,308,123,528.68 pesos your honor. 1203 05:59:13,280 --> 05:59:18,440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa table 6 of your summary on insurance and investments. 1204 05:59:20,560 --> 05:59:44,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Atty. Benaventura, pinapakita po sa inyo ang CTR with transaction reference number ending in 8371, Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-12, page 4C, line 6, with transaction code NP-LIT. Ano po itong transaction na ito? 1205 05:59:45,250 --> 05:59:48,190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry po, anong page po? 4C po. 1206 05:59:48,450 --> 05:59:49,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 4C line 6. 1207 05:59:53,310 --> 05:59:56,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung ending po niya is 8371 po. 1208 05:59:57,390 --> 05:59:57,950 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes 1209 05:59:57,950 --> 05:59:58,450 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: po. 1210 06:00:00,000 --> 06:00:24,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: This transaction po is reported by FW Life Insurance Corporation with transaction date of May 25, 2024 po. The transaction code po is NPLIT your honor. So let me check. 1211 06:00:32,840 --> 06:00:34,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: NPLIT your honor means 1212 06:00:37,860 --> 06:00:42,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Purchase of life with investment insurance policy payment channels, Your Honor. 1213 06:00:43,930 --> 06:00:46,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So that's the transaction po, Your Honor. 1214 06:00:48,850 --> 06:00:51,330 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kanino po or sino po ang may-ari ng policy? 1215 06:00:51,730 --> 06:00:52,350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The 1216 06:01:03,490 --> 06:01:07,290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: policy is owned po by Manassas Reyes Carpio. 1217 06:01:07,590 --> 06:01:11,150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At sino naman po ang mga beneficiaries nitong policy na ito? 1218 06:01:14,170 --> 06:01:28,040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May beneficiary name po dito. Ang nakalagay po ay Marco Carpio, Mateo Lucas Carpio, Micaela. Maria Carpio, Sara Carpio po. 1219 06:01:28,220 --> 06:01:32,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At magkano naman po ang annual premium para sa policy na yan? 1220 06:01:43,670 --> 06:01:46,290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang nakalagay 1221 06:01:52,590 --> 06:02:02,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po rito, medyo maliit po kasi yung ano niya, is 10,600,000 po. 1222 06:02:07,840 --> 06:02:09,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: PHP annual po ba? Tama po. 1223 06:02:10,880 --> 06:02:11,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Annual premium? 1224 06:02:12,300 --> 06:02:16,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: PHP annual na sa column po, yun po yung nakalagay, Your Honor. 1225 06:02:17,840 --> 06:02:23,080 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano po kung mayroon man ang pinapakita ng mga record tungkol sa pagbabayad ng premium na iyon? 1226 06:02:25,040 --> 06:02:31,200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masagot, Your Honor. Ito lang po. I can only answer what's provided here in the records, Your Honor. 1227 06:02:31,720 --> 06:02:32,240 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. 1228 06:02:33,300 --> 06:02:38,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Now, let's go back to the 2014 transaction. 1229 06:02:39,730 --> 06:02:43,030 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Based on the CTR with transaction reference number... 1230 06:02:44,710 --> 06:02:57,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ending 5277, Exhibit P-RN No. 2-7-11, and P-RN No. 2-7-37, Line 18. Ano po yung policy amount? 1231 06:02:58,750 --> 06:03:01,690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala pa po yung papel sa akin. May request po. 1232 06:03:07,610 --> 06:03:10,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Assisting counsel from both sides may approach. 1233 06:03:11,480 --> 06:03:20,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, page 2C po of Exhibit 11711, EMAG po. Tama po ba? 1234 06:03:20,140 --> 06:03:20,680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes. 1235 06:03:20,980 --> 06:03:22,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Anong line number po? 1236 06:03:23,810 --> 06:03:24,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 18. 1237 06:03:32,710 --> 06:03:37,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung dulo po ng TXN ref number ay 1672. Tama po ba? 1238 06:03:37,990 --> 06:03:39,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. So, 1239 06:03:39,570 --> 06:03:45,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ito po ay reported po ng Bank of the Phil Islands. 1240 06:03:48,460 --> 06:03:52,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, transaction ending 5277. Tama po ba? 1241 06:03:58,520 --> 06:03:59,680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Anong page number po? 1242 06:03:59,940 --> 06:04:05,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Line 18 sa P-Roman numeral number 2-7 1243 06:04:05,060 --> 06:04:07,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: -11. 1244 06:04:08,360 --> 06:04:09,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Page 9C. 1245 06:04:09,900 --> 06:04:10,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah 9C. 1246 06:04:15,660 --> 06:04:17,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Number line 18 po. Tama po ba? 1247 06:04:23,400 --> 06:04:25,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Magkano po ang halaga ng policy? 1248 06:04:26,000 --> 06:04:34,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 17. So yung TXN ref number po ay 3985. Tama po ba? 1249 06:04:34,340 --> 06:04:35,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. 1250 06:04:38,930 --> 06:04:46,990 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Peso amount na nakalagay po. This is reported po by Insti name Metropolitan Bank. Sorry, 1251 06:04:47,110 --> 06:04:51,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: transaction reference number 5277. 1252 06:05:01,060 --> 06:05:08,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 5277. So this is reported po by BPII, Life Assurance Corporation. 1253 06:05:10,280 --> 06:05:21,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung peso amount na nakalagay po rito, Your Honor, ito po yung nakahash po. So, I'm getting yung copy po kanina na may submitted po. 1254 06:05:49,990 --> 06:05:55,530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I-recall ko lang po, yung 7-3-3-5 po ba yung dulo? Ano po ulit yung dulo? 1255 06:05:56,220 --> 06:05:57,600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 5-2-7-7. 1256 06:06:36,290 --> 06:06:41,510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry po po, pwede po ulit? 5-2-7-7 po yung dulo? 1257 06:06:41,650 --> 06:06:41,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes 1258 06:06:41,790 --> 06:06:41,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: po. 1259 06:06:44,050 --> 06:06:45,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 7 to the last line. 1260 06:06:46,010 --> 06:06:46,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ano po? 1261 06:06:46,570 --> 06:06:48,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 7 to the last line. 1262 06:06:50,440 --> 06:06:52,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Or 7 from the last line. 1263 06:06:53,940 --> 06:06:54,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 1770. 1264 06:06:55,220 --> 06:06:57,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 5 to 7, ending 5 to 7, 7. 1265 06:07:14,260 --> 06:07:15,360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 7 to the 1. 1266 06:07:23,210 --> 06:07:29,010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung ito po yung iba po yung nandito sa records ko po. 1770 po ito. 1267 06:07:32,150 --> 06:07:33,230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yun dulo po niya. 1268 06:07:38,360 --> 06:07:41,120 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Even the resubmitted is in page 24. 1269 06:07:47,100 --> 06:07:56,820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I-clarify ko na lang po. Yung TXN ref number is 201404041 CTR 5277. Tama po ba? 1270 06:07:56,940 --> 06:07:57,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes po. 1271 06:07:57,040 --> 06:07:57,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay. So, ito po. 1272 06:08:00,140 --> 06:08:09,700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po reported by BPI ILF Assurance Corporation. So, yung tanong po kanina ay ito po yung nakahash. So, yung tanong niyo po is magkano po yung peso amount? 1273 06:08:10,000 --> 06:08:10,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes po. 1274 06:08:10,480 --> 06:08:14,340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang nakalagay po, based on records po, Your Honor, is 20 million pesos. 1275 06:08:14,440 --> 06:08:14,860 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank 1276 06:08:14,860 --> 06:08:53,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you. Punta naman po tayo dun sa confidential information sharing. Atty. Benaventura, isa po sa mga dokumentong sinubmit ninyo dito sa courting ito ang confidential information sharing tungkol kay Vice President Duterte at kay Atty. Carpio, which is AMLC reference number IFI 26-RQT. 26-730475, Exhibit P-Roman Numeral No. 2-7-15-C. Sa paragraph 9, pahina 4, sa ilalim ng subheading, Sender of Funds to VP Sara. Is 1277 06:08:53,810 --> 06:08:55,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: nari pa anong page po, Your Honor? 1278 06:08:56,090 --> 06:09:01,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Page 4, paragraph 9. Sa ilalim ng subheading na Sender of Funds to VP Sara. 1279 06:09:02,250 --> 06:09:02,850 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano 1280 06:09:02,850 --> 06:09:05,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: pong mga transaksyon po kung mayroon man ang nakalista dito? 1281 06:09:09,260 --> 06:09:12,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, number 9 po. Number 9, tama po ba? 1282 06:09:12,140 --> 06:09:12,840 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Paragraph 9. 1283 06:09:13,100 --> 06:09:27,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Paragraph 9 po. So, Your Honor, I would just like to read on the records po. Moreover, VP Sara was also identified as the beneficiary of the check purchases made by the following individuals. So, may table po dito. 1284 06:09:30,350 --> 06:10:18,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Row 1 is purchaser of check. Row 2 is number of transactions. Then date and then amount po. So yung first line po is purchaser of cheque, Duterte Rodrigo R., number of trans, 1, date, June 20, 2006, amount, 2,500,000 pesos. Second, yung last column po, purchaser of cheque, Samantha Jayne Yenco Uy, Samuel Cang Uy, Yaneile Yenco Uy, number of trans, 2, date, 25 October 2011 and 24 April 2012. Amount 14,881,692.14, Your Honor. That's what's stated here in the record, Your Honor. 1285 06:10:19,160 --> 06:10:24,820 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kailan naman po binili ang mga ito? Base dyan sa dokumentong inyong hawak. 1286 06:10:25,860 --> 06:10:42,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: There's a date indicated here, Your Honor. The first one, the date indicated is June 20, 2006. The second one is October 25, 2011, and 24 April, April 2020, Your Honor. That's the date indicated here, Your Honor, based on records. 1287 06:10:43,240 --> 06:11:09,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay, speaking of Samuel Kang Uy, let me invite your attention to the AMLC Financial Intelligence Report on the Respondent, which is exhibit Roman numeral number 2-7-15-B-AMLC. Please refer to pages 3 and 4 of the Financial Intelligence Report. What categories of associated predicated crimes are identified in that portion of the report? 1288 06:11:10,180 --> 06:11:10,880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sorry, ano ang 1289 06:11:10,880 --> 06:11:11,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: page po yun, Your Honor? 1290 06:11:12,440 --> 06:11:13,780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pages 3 and 4. 1291 06:11:14,120 --> 06:11:33,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Rejection, Your Honor. Number one, irrelevance. Number two, Your Honor, Attorney May is already proceeding with a new document. I just want to register that the document that has flashed on the screen is not the accurate document as being confronted with the witness. 1292 06:11:33,960 --> 06:11:37,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. May, is that the same document as what is flashed 1293 06:11:37,300 --> 06:11:37,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: on the screen? 1294 06:11:38,040 --> 06:11:42,840 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I'm now moving to the financial intelligence report, Your Honor. 1295 06:11:44,220 --> 06:11:49,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is that the same document being in front of the witness right now? 1296 06:11:49,540 --> 06:11:55,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: The one at my right side, Your Honor. It is the correct document. 1297 06:11:56,620 --> 06:11:57,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is 1298 06:11:57,080 --> 06:11:57,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that what is 1299 06:11:57,760 --> 06:11:58,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: being shown to the witness? 1300 06:12:00,140 --> 06:12:02,440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: This is page 4, Your Honor. 1301 06:12:05,950 --> 06:12:06,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: The 1302 06:12:06,430 --> 06:12:08,690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: one at the right side is page 4 of the document. 1303 06:12:08,990 --> 06:12:10,930 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Again, just to add to the manifestation, Your Honor. 1304 06:12:11,050 --> 06:12:14,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Exhibit Roman numeral number 2-7-15-B. 1305 06:12:15,490 --> 06:12:21,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, the question is simple. Is that, Attorney Ranel, is that the same document before you? 1306 06:12:22,080 --> 06:12:22,460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes. 1307 06:12:24,080 --> 06:12:27,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Exhibit number 11-7-15- 1308 06:12:29,420 --> 06:12:31,560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: B. That's EMLC, Your Honor. 1309 06:12:31,700 --> 06:12:31,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And 1310 06:12:31,860 --> 06:12:32,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you can see it on the screen? 1311 06:12:33,240 --> 06:12:33,960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. 1312 06:12:34,080 --> 06:12:34,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, 1313 06:12:34,760 --> 06:12:35,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: hindi kaya ng mata. 1314 06:12:37,170 --> 06:12:41,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But you have the correct exhibit number. Yes, Atty. Mark? 1315 06:12:42,110 --> 06:12:54,850 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just an additional manifestation, Your Honor, that there's a watermark on that page which says confidential, among other things, Your Honor. Confidential Philippine 1316 06:12:54,850 --> 06:12:56,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senate? 1317 06:12:57,140 --> 06:12:58,780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Use only, I think, Your Honor. 1318 06:12:59,870 --> 06:13:02,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is that what is there, Atty. Donel? 1319 06:13:02,630 --> 06:13:07,350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, indicated here confidential for Philippine Senate use only. Okay. 1320 06:13:07,450 --> 06:13:07,750 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I 1321 06:13:07,750 --> 06:13:19,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: understand that, Your Honor. But again, considering that it's being flashed on the screen, Your Honor, then it's not for the Senate use only. It's for every Filipino who can access this, even the policeman on the street. Thank you, Your Honor. 1322 06:13:20,250 --> 06:13:20,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted, counsel. 1323 06:13:23,600 --> 06:13:25,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Atty. Mae, please proceed. 1324 06:13:25,820 --> 06:13:36,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Balikan po natin. Pakitingnan po ang pages 3 and 4 ng nasabing report. Ano po ang mga kategorya ng associated predicate crime ang tinutukoy sa bahaging iyan ng report? 1325 06:13:37,590 --> 06:14:13,360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, this one po is paragraph number 5 po sa page 3 po. Ang nakalagay lang po, nakalagay na may column po, associated predicate crime tapos may narrative po sa table. Sa left po, associated predicate crime, I'm just reading lang po, drug trafficking and related offenses. That's for page 3 po. and then pati po by page 4. Yung page 4 po ay nakalagay po sa associated predicate crime sa pangalawang entry po is graph and core practices, Your Honor. 1326 06:14:15,410 --> 06:14:26,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta po tayo dyan sa ilalim po ng under which category po or sa ilalim po ng aling kategoriya lumalabas o nabanggit ang pangalang Sami Uy. 1327 06:14:29,020 --> 06:14:37,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I'll have to read po ito entire to find it po. Hindi ko po maahanap on the... 1328 06:14:37,050 --> 06:14:42,930 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Please refer to page 4, the narrative. 1329 06:14:47,950 --> 06:14:50,150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pakibasa po ang unang talata ng narrative. 1330 06:14:51,290 --> 06:14:52,690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung putol po 1331 06:14:52,690 --> 06:14:52,970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ba o 1332 06:14:52,970 --> 06:14:53,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yung katuloy na 1333 06:14:53,710 --> 06:14:53,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po? 1334 06:14:53,730 --> 06:15:03,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kaugnay ng... Let me just invite your attention to the narrative kaugnay ng drug trafficking and related offenses. Maaari niyo po bang basahin? 1335 06:15:05,290 --> 06:15:06,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Unang paragraph. 1336 06:15:20,270 --> 06:15:27,450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, but that portion, Your Honor, of the document pertains to the test narrative. Does it pertain to the news report, Your Honor? 1337 06:15:27,530 --> 06:15:27,810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We will 1338 06:15:27,810 --> 06:15:34,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: await for the witness's response, Counsel. And if at all, depending on what he says, that will be the proper subject matter of your cross later. 1339 06:15:34,890 --> 06:15:36,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Very well, Your Honor. Thank you. 1340 06:15:36,910 --> 06:15:38,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness will please answer. 1341 06:15:39,960 --> 06:17:07,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I'm just reading on page 3 on the narrative. So this indicates Vice President Sara Duterte together with her sibling Sebastian Z. Duterte and Paolo Z. Duterte are being linked to the financial transactions in relation with the war on drugs. During the House Quad Committee hearing, former Senator Antonio Trillanes IV confronted FPR Duterte about alleged suspicious billion worth of transfers into a joint account shared with his daughter VP Sara Duterte. Period. Trillanes IV presented evidence suggesting that a total of PHP 2.4 billion was deposited into his account between 2011 and 2015. The claim was based on documents handed to his office by a certain Joseph de Mesa during the 2016 election campaign. The massive deposits are compounded by the allegations that the funds could be linked to illicit activities, particularly drug trafficking. Referencing the testimony of former Davao City Police Officer Arturo Lascañas, corroborated by Jimmy Guban and Colonel Eduardo Acierto Trillanes IV insisted that FPR Duterte was involved in protecting and collaborating with drug lords namely Michael Yang, Charlie Tan, and Sami Uy. 1342 06:17:07,400 --> 06:17:07,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: You 1343 06:17:07,740 --> 06:17:08,260 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: may stop there. 1344 06:17:08,460 --> 06:17:08,820 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank 1345 06:17:08,820 --> 06:17:27,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you, Atty. Buenaventura. Balik po tayo sa confidential information sharing. Dito po sa confidential information sharing na ito, it also refers to derogatory records on Vice President Duterte and Atty. Carpio. Ano po ba itong mga derogatory records na ito? 1346 06:17:28,660 --> 06:17:33,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, may I request po for the copy of the I'm unable to... 1347 06:17:35,410 --> 06:17:39,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly give Attorney Ranel a copy for his reference. 1348 06:17:43,450 --> 06:17:44,250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May I ask po... 1349 06:17:44,250 --> 06:17:44,750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Assisting counsel, 1350 06:17:45,010 --> 06:17:47,430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: kindly verify if that is indeed the... 1351 06:17:47,430 --> 06:17:48,810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May 1352 06:17:49,290 --> 06:17:49,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I ask po 1353 06:17:49,730 --> 06:17:54,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: kung anong page po yun? Yung binabangin niyo po, Your Honor. 1354 06:17:57,350 --> 06:18:01,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Page 6 of the Confidential Information Sharing. 1355 06:18:06,600 --> 06:18:59,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, paragraph 14 po, Your Honor. I will just read on the records lang po, Your Honor. So number 4, derogatory records number 14, VP Sara was the subject of suspicion in 27 confidential reports submitted by covered persons on 2 August 2024 to 29 January 2026, citing suspected activities involving drug trafficking and related offenses, craft and corrupt practices, and malversation of public funds and property, Your Honor. Then, there's a subheading, sort of subheading, drug trafficking and related offenses triggered in connection with the House Quad Committee hearing on former President Rodrigo Duterte's war on drugs, as well as by news reports alleging the involvement of VP Sara’s husband in the PHP 6.4 billion shabu importation in 2017. There's also another... 1356 06:18:59,410 --> 06:19:10,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay na po. Thank you, attorney Benaventura. Okay. Pero generally po, ano po ba ang ibig sabihin ng derogatory record sa mga confidential information sharing reports? 1357 06:19:11,310 --> 06:19:22,970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apologies, Your Honor. I'm able to answer that. I can only base on what is stated in the records. It doesn't mention any description or definition of the derogatory record so I will not be able to answer that, Your Honor. 1358 06:19:23,110 --> 06:19:29,930 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Sige po. Ngayon po, Atty. Benaventura, ilan po sa mga report na ito ang tungkol sa vicepresidente? 1359 06:19:32,680 --> 06:19:34,380 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ilan pong derogatory report 1360 06:19:34,380 --> 06:19:35,660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: tungkol 1361 06:19:35,660 --> 06:19:36,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: sa vice-presidente? 1362 06:19:36,840 --> 06:19:48,160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, based on the portion that I read, it only read, as earlier read, VP Sara was the subject of suspicion in 27 confidential reports, Your Honor. 1363 06:19:49,790 --> 06:19:51,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That's what's provided here, Your Honor. 1364 06:20:05,620 --> 06:20:13,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Can you kindly take a look at paragraph 14 of that confidential sharing report? 1365 06:20:15,850 --> 06:20:16,370 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yung 1366 06:20:16,370 --> 06:20:17,130 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: page 6 1367 06:20:17,130 --> 06:20:22,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: po. Page 6, yes. Paragraph 14, first paragraph. 1368 06:20:22,490 --> 06:20:23,010 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Can 1369 06:20:23,010 --> 06:20:25,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you kindly take a look at that? 1370 06:20:25,870 --> 06:20:28,470 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, sir. Yes, po. Yes, your honor. I'm looking po. 1371 06:20:32,370 --> 06:20:34,470 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Can you kindly read for the record? 1372 06:20:34,870 --> 06:20:36,910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, again, your honor. 1373 06:20:37,130 --> 06:20:38,530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yung confidential reports. 1374 06:20:38,810 --> 06:20:39,770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It states 1375 06:20:39,770 --> 06:20:40,130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: here. 1376 06:20:40,310 --> 06:20:40,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, 1377 06:20:40,710 --> 06:20:42,310 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: can 1378 06:20:42,690 --> 06:20:43,630 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you kindly read it? 1379 06:20:43,850 --> 06:21:03,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, it states here po, 14. VP Sara was the subject of suspicion in 27 Confidential Reports submitted by covered persons on 2 August 2024 to 29 January 2026. Citing suspected activities involving drug trafficking and related offenses, gruff and corrupt practices, and malversation of public funds and property, Your Honor. 1380 06:21:03,860 --> 06:21:18,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ilan naman po ang tungkol kay Atty. Carpio? Kindly direct your attention to paragraph 36 of the same Confidential. Information sharing report which is found on page 15 of the report. 1381 06:21:22,720 --> 06:21:29,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May I just read na lang po, Your Honor, as indicated, as what is provided in the records, Your Honor? 1382 06:21:30,540 --> 06:21:31,260 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sige po. 1383 06:21:31,480 --> 06:21:52,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So number 36 po, derogatory records number 36. Atty. Carpio was the subject of suspicion in 17 confidential reports. Submitted by covered persons on 14 September 2017 to 25 April 2025. Citing suspected activities involving drug trafficking and related offenses and malversation of public funds and property, Your Honor. 1384 06:21:53,980 --> 06:21:57,920 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Balik po tayo dun sa summary na inyong pre-repair. 1385 06:21:59,640 --> 06:22:20,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Let's go to table 4 of that summary. Base po sa inyong summary, magkano po ang kabuhang halaga naman ng inflows at outflows? Noong 15 na korporasyong ipinasabina ng kagalang-galang na hukuman ito para sa 2022 hanggang 2025. 1386 06:22:33,410 --> 06:22:42,130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And there was no basis or foundation that could link the inflows and outflows of these corporations to the Vice President. 1387 06:22:42,390 --> 06:23:30,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This was part of the subpoena documents, counsel, with the understanding that based on the admissions and or testimonies of the witness with respect to the respective corporate holdings of the Vice President in these corporations, noting that the Court excluded The corporations where the Vice President does not have any shareholdings. So this would be limited. This information would apply to the inflows and outflows of the corporation of which the Vice President is a shareholder of. Not to mean that this is the entire shareholdings of the Vice President, but only of the companies which have a separate juridical personality. Would that be correct, Attorney May? 1388 06:23:30,230 --> 06:23:30,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1389 06:23:31,660 --> 06:23:34,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Subject to that qualification, the court will allow it. 1390 06:23:34,680 --> 06:23:36,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We'll just register a continuing objection. 1391 06:23:36,880 --> 06:23:37,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So 1392 06:23:37,380 --> 06:23:38,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: noted, counsel. 1393 06:23:40,930 --> 06:23:50,690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So balik po tayo. Magkano po yung total inflows and outflows para sa 15 korporasyon for the period 2022 to 2025? 1394 06:23:53,420 --> 06:23:57,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung aggregate po ba o yung separate po na inflow and outflow? 1395 06:23:57,500 --> 06:23:58,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Aggregate po, yung total. 1396 06:23:58,860 --> 06:23:59,460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung 1397 06:23:59,460 --> 06:24:15,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: letter C po na aggregate ang nakalagay po. Based dito sa tabular summary po namin is 4,553,052,237 pesos and 1 centavo, Your Honor. 1398 06:24:15,270 --> 06:24:27,220 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At para naman po sa period 2007 to 2025, magkano po ang inflows and outflows ng flag transactions 1399 06:24:28,140 --> 06:24:30,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: para 1400 06:24:30,800 --> 06:24:32,320 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: dun sa 15 na korporasyon? 1401 06:24:44,370 --> 06:24:47,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: From 2007 to 2025, your honor? 1402 06:24:47,330 --> 06:24:47,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, po. 1403 06:24:51,670 --> 06:25:17,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So wala po siya, your honor, sa table 4. Nasa table 2 po siya. As indicated po dito, yung sa aggregate amount of repartee transactions, yung total po ay 5,361,878,000. 1404 06:25:21,940 --> 06:25:23,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Magkano 1405 06:25:26,410 --> 06:25:26,670 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: po yan? 1406 06:25:27,790 --> 06:25:37,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 5,361,878,144.38 PHP 1407 06:26:01,580 --> 06:26:06,960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Malapit na po tayo. Punta naman po tayo sa Cale88 Foods Corporation. 1408 06:26:07,620 --> 06:26:31,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before you go there, counsel, just to clarify, Attorney Ranel, the amounts you've been mentioning, total of 4.4 billion for the Vice President and her spouse, total of 5 billion for the 15 corporations, these are inflows, outflows, and undetermined inflow or outflow. Only for covered and suspicious transactions, correct? 1409 06:26:32,330 --> 06:26:33,270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1410 06:26:33,690 --> 06:26:43,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, yung hindi covered at hindi suspicious, meaning hindi pasok sa 500, 5 million o 7.5 million, hindi kasama dito? 1411 06:26:43,810 --> 06:26:45,910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po yun. Hindi po yun na-report sa amin. 1412 06:26:45,930 --> 06:26:46,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: At yung hindi 1413 06:26:46,670 --> 06:26:56,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: suspicious based on whatever report, media or subjective suspicion of the bank officer or covered institution, hindi rin po kasama yun? 1414 06:26:56,960 --> 06:26:59,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So this 1415 06:26:59,660 --> 06:27:19,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: will not be a mirror image if at all sa documents na pinapresent ng SEC on the audited financial statement of the corporations and or the bank deposits that the banks will report to us in the next couple of days because this covers only suspicious and covered transactions. 1416 06:27:20,380 --> 06:27:24,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Unless all 1417 06:27:24,520 --> 06:27:35,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: of the transactions entered entered into through those accounts are suspicious and covered, hindi po siya malamang magtatali. Would that be a safe assumption? 1418 06:27:36,750 --> 06:27:41,570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm unable to answer that, Your Honor. I can only refer to what is 1419 06:27:41,570 --> 06:27:42,230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: in our record. 1420 06:27:42,230 --> 06:27:45,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The chair will accept that answer of the witness. Witness may proceed. Rather, counsel may proceed. 1421 06:27:45,670 --> 06:28:08,280 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, may nakalimutan lang. Let's just backtrack. So, Atty. Benaventura, magkano po yung aggregate amount? flag transactions for the spouses Duterte-Carpio and para dun sa 15 corporations kung saan may interest. 1422 06:28:25,960 --> 06:28:54,940 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: For the corporations. And our objection, Your Honor, is precisely, and we were getting there, if she would ask about certain figures that only pertain to the corporations, then we would have to object on the basis of relevance, Your Honor, considering that the presiding officer also mentioned a while ago that these have separate and distinct juridical personalities, and we do not see the relevance. of how this 5.3 billion total relates to the Vice President. 1423 06:28:55,180 --> 06:29:12,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I see the point of Atty. Mark, Atty. Mae. I believe you see that too. It would be unfair to add them up given that the shareholding of the Vice President in these various corporations also differ. Unless you can give us the percentage of each and we can do the computation ourselves. 1424 06:29:14,150 --> 06:29:16,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Objection is sustained. 1425 06:29:16,670 --> 06:29:16,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Moving 1426 06:29:16,910 --> 06:29:39,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: to Cale88 Foods Corporation. Pakitinan po, Atty. Beneventura, yung CTR na may transaction reference number ending in 0995 sa mga CTR ng Cale88. Exhibit P-11-7, sorry, P-R2-7-23, page 8a hanggang 8b. 1427 06:29:41,850 --> 06:29:45,130 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Third to the last line. Ano po ang transaction na ito? 1428 06:30:04,480 --> 06:30:10,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May I confirm po that the ending TXN ref number is 0995? 1429 06:30:10,680 --> 06:30:10,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes. 1430 06:30:12,330 --> 06:30:16,910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, Your Honor, this is a report submitted by Security 1431 06:30:24,460 --> 06:30:38,160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Bank Corp. D. Vau Rizal. The transaction date po is December 12, sorry, December 16, 2024. 1432 06:30:40,350 --> 06:30:43,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: There is a transaction code R.I.R.I.C. 1433 06:30:45,110 --> 06:30:48,790 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Let me check lang po yung R.I.R.C. R 1434 06:31:12,150 --> 06:31:18,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: .I.R.C. po is Inward Remittance International Credit to Beneficiaries Account, Your Honor. 1435 06:31:20,630 --> 06:31:21,210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: There 1436 06:31:22,840 --> 06:31:29,700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: is an amount indicated, Your Honor. 1437 06:31:31,470 --> 06:31:33,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The peso 1438 06:31:36,460 --> 06:32:06,160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: amount indicated, Your Honor, is for 1,397,353.29, Your Honor. Your Honor, just also mention in a foreign currency, I'll be abiding po yung order kanina. If I may po, I'll just read lang po kanina sa records, Your Honor. So, it's indicated here is 75,207 USD, Your Honor. 1439 06:32:07,720 --> 06:32:17,120 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Benaventura, saan po galing yung naman na banggit ninyo na inward remittance at papunta naman saan po galing muna yung inward remittance? 1440 06:32:23,960 --> 06:32:44,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: There's no mention specifically kung saan po galing but in our records lang po the closest I think would be the counterparty name. The counterparty name indicated here is Yiwu Yunong Import and Export. and open close parenthesis C. 1441 06:32:46,320 --> 06:33:00,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: And the address indicated po here, counterparty address is LTD RM8621 NO599 Huignag Road, Chengxi, China po. Yung naka-indicate sa record po yun. 1442 06:33:02,360 --> 06:33:10,350 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa CTR with transaction reference number ending 1368. 1443 06:33:11,950 --> 06:33:20,450 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: In the CTRs again of Cale88, Exhibit A, Roman numeral number 2-7-23, 1444 06:33:21,030 --> 06:33:21,710 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: pages 1445 06:33:21,710 --> 06:33:26,330 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 12A and 12B, 14th line. Ano naman po ang transaction na ito? 1446 06:33:26,330 --> 06:33:30,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before the witness answers, before you answer, Atty. Ronel, Atty. Mark? 1447 06:33:30,610 --> 06:34:03,810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, again, we would have to object based on relevance, Your Honor. These are already covered transactions by a different entity, which is Cale88. And we understand that there may have been links, but as to particular transactions, Your Honor, we don't see the relevance of these transactions to the Vice President. We don't know the extent of the financial interest or business interest of the Vice President with Cale88. So it is highly, sorry to say, but it's highly improper to link these to the subject matter, Tandro. 1448 06:34:03,910 --> 06:34:04,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We 1449 06:34:04,130 --> 06:34:05,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: already know the connection. 1450 06:34:22,350 --> 06:34:29,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How many more examples, Atty. May, on Callie? What corporation are we talking about? 1451 06:34:30,300 --> 06:34:30,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: There 1452 06:34:30,940 --> 06:34:37,080 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: are several more, Your Honor, but I only have maybe 20 questions left, Your Honor. 1453 06:34:37,600 --> 06:34:40,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Not on this topic. 1454 06:34:40,500 --> 06:34:41,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I 1455 06:34:41,020 --> 06:34:46,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: guess on this topic, you're citing some examples, correct? 1456 06:34:47,060 --> 06:34:47,540 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1457 06:34:48,570 --> 06:34:49,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Mar? 1458 06:34:49,710 --> 06:34:55,990 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In that light, Your Honor, considering that there are 20 more questions, can we ask for another bathroom break, Your Honor? 1459 06:34:59,940 --> 06:35:02,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Kahit 5 minutes lang, Your Honor. 5 minute break. 1460 06:35:02,820 --> 06:35:06,660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, just to finish the proceedings, Your Honor. 1461 06:35:06,760 --> 06:35:07,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, 1462 06:35:07,100 --> 06:35:23,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: of course, the court will allow it. The court will not prevent Attorney Mark from answering the call of nature. Yes, Court declares a brief recess of 5 minutes. We shall resume at 4.35. If that's okay, Attorney 1463 06:35:23,960 --> 06:35:24,200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mark. 1464 06:35:24,300 --> 06:35:24,540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, 1465 06:35:24,580 --> 06:35:24,720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. 1466 06:40:15,720 --> 06:40:16,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's 4.35. 1467 06:40:18,790 --> 06:40:19,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. May? 1468 06:40:25,200 --> 06:40:27,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ay, sorry, wala pa pala si Atty. Ronel. 1469 06:40:31,940 --> 06:40:36,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Atty. Ronel. Thank you. Atty. Ronel, are you okay? 1470 06:40:36,740 --> 06:40:37,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po, 1471 06:40:37,220 --> 06:40:37,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your 1472 06:40:37,400 --> 06:40:37,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 1473 06:40:37,680 --> 06:40:38,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay lang? Kaya pa? 1474 06:40:38,520 --> 06:40:39,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po, Your Honor. 1475 06:40:39,560 --> 06:40:39,880 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, 1476 06:40:39,940 --> 06:40:42,300 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, can I just have one minute, Your Honor? 1477 06:40:42,800 --> 06:40:43,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes. 1478 06:40:47,600 --> 06:40:52,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nauunawaan niyo, Atty. Ronel, na patuloy pa rin kayong magdetestigo dahil nag-recess po tayo ng bahagya. 1479 06:40:53,680 --> 06:40:54,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Naintindihan po, 1480 06:40:54,160 --> 06:40:54,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 1481 06:40:54,660 --> 06:40:57,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa ilalim ng nauna po ninyong pinanumpan. 1482 06:40:57,630 --> 06:40:59,310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, now naman po, Your Honor. 1483 06:41:02,310 --> 06:41:05,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We can do this every two hours too, Attorney Mark, if you want. 1484 06:41:05,530 --> 06:41:07,550 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We appreciate that, Your Honor. Thank you. 1485 06:41:07,710 --> 06:41:28,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Or, sooner than that, if you need to, it's okay. So that we can... I think this is the longest witness we've had and the longest hearing we've had too. So, let's try to finish up with the witness. Kawawa naman si Atty. Ronel kung papabalikin pa natin siya ng ganito katagal ulit. Nang hindi pa kumakain, ha? 1486 06:41:49,730 --> 06:42:10,880 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa CTR with transaction reference number ending 1368, Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-23, pages 12A and 12B, 14th line. Ano naman po ang transaction na ito? 1487 06:42:11,480 --> 06:42:12,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 14th line po. 1488 06:42:20,200 --> 06:42:23,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po yung ending na 1368, tama po ba? 1489 06:42:23,200 --> 06:42:23,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama po. 1490 06:42:27,250 --> 06:42:41,150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Finile po ng Security Bank Corp. Divao Rizal Ang transaction code po niya ay RIRC Sa 1491 06:42:44,320 --> 06:42:50,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: transaction code po namin ng RIRC ay Inward 1492 06:42:53,290 --> 06:42:58,990 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Remittance International Credit to Beneficiary's Account So ang 1493 06:43:02,100 --> 06:43:11,690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: amount po in peso na naka-indicate sa record ay 4,370,572.50, Your Honor. 1494 06:43:15,350 --> 06:43:16,190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yun po. 1495 06:43:21,350 --> 06:43:25,250 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kailan po yung transaction date ng Inward Committance? 1496 06:43:25,590 --> 06:43:28,690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: November 4, 2024 po, Your Honor. 1497 06:43:33,510 --> 06:43:35,850 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Puntat po tayo sa transaction reference number. 1498 06:43:37,810 --> 06:43:51,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ending S001. Exhibit P-RN No. 7-23. Pages 12A and 12B, 16th line. Ano po yung transaction na ito? 1499 06:43:59,340 --> 06:44:13,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So, ito po ay transaction reported by Bank of the Phil Islands. Ang code po niya ay RIRIC. So, katulad po kanina, ang ibig sabihin po noon ay Inward 1500 06:44:15,290 --> 06:44:35,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Remittance International Credit to Beneficiaries Account. Ang date po ay October 31, 2024. Yung peso amount po as indicated based on the records po is 5,655,530.52 pesos your honor. 1501 06:44:35,990 --> 06:44:36,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At 1502 06:44:36,650 --> 06:44:40,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: saan po mula yung remittance? 1503 06:44:41,040 --> 06:44:50,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So ang counterparty name po as indicated po based on the record is Jinhua Dongshi Trading Co. Ltd. 1504 06:44:52,090 --> 06:44:55,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta po tayo sa CTR with transaction reference number 1505 06:44:57,990 --> 06:45:10,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: S001 of Exhibit P, Roman numeral number 2, 7-23, pages 17a and 17b, 13th line. Ano naman po ang transaction na iyan? 1506 06:45:11,970 --> 06:45:13,650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 17a, 17b po. Tama 1507 06:45:13,650 --> 06:45:13,830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: po. 1508 06:45:16,890 --> 06:45:17,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 17th line. 1509 06:45:28,520 --> 06:45:31,120 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung may ending po na 0010. 1510 06:45:34,600 --> 06:45:40,650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po ay nireport ng Bank of the Phil Islands, Davao Corp. 1511 06:45:43,150 --> 06:45:48,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang transaction date po ay 1512 06:45:50,810 --> 06:46:07,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: September 4, 2024. Ang peso amount po ay 1,358,640. Ang transaction code po ay CBPRK. So check ko lang po yung CB. 1513 06:46:10,680 --> 06:46:32,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: CBPRK po means Bills purchase discounting credit memo. So this meaning po ng checks or drafts and other negotiable instruments which have been discounted with or purchased by the bank under bills purchase or bills discounting arrangement which are credited to the customer's account, Your Honor. 1514 06:46:37,730 --> 06:46:49,370 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta po tayo sa STRs on Cale88 Exhibit P-2-7-18. 24, page 2B. 1515 06:46:51,770 --> 06:46:54,070 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Bakit po nireport ito as suspicious? 1516 06:46:55,050 --> 06:47:17,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. At this point, Your Honor, we've been giving leeway to the good counsel, but she's been displaying several figures, Your Honor, without establishing any link of these transactions by Cale88 or at least specific links to these transactions with the Vice President, Your Honor. So, we object on the basis of relevance, Your Honor. 1517 06:47:19,430 --> 06:47:34,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The chair has ruled previously in relation to relevance, but this pertains already to suspicious transactions, I believe. Attorney May, the first few figures you gave were covered transactions, correct? 1518 06:47:35,450 --> 06:47:36,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1519 06:47:37,650 --> 06:47:38,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is your 1520 06:47:38,410 --> 06:47:39,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: first suspicious transaction? 1521 06:47:39,850 --> 06:47:45,630 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sorry, Your Honor, I withdraw that question, Your Honor. I just have to go back, Your Honor. I missed out on one more transaction, Your Honor. 1522 06:47:49,290 --> 06:47:49,730 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So, 1523 06:47:49,750 --> 06:47:52,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you're backtracking on another covert transaction? 1524 06:47:52,510 --> 06:47:52,930 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1525 06:47:54,120 --> 06:47:57,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Anyway, the court has ruled just to know where we're headed. 1526 06:48:00,860 --> 06:48:06,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And I counted your questions. So, we are in the 12 to 14 question range, right? 1527 06:48:07,200 --> 06:48:07,760 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1528 06:48:08,000 --> 06:48:08,340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 1529 06:48:09,460 --> 06:48:32,520 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Benaventura, pakitingnan po ulit ang transaction reference number ending S002. In the CTRs on Cale88, Exhibit P-RN No. 2-7-23, Pages 23a to 23b. First line. Ano po ba itong transactional? 1530 06:48:36,570 --> 06:48:38,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Anong line po? Sorry po. 1531 06:48:38,310 --> 06:48:38,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: First line. 1532 06:48:42,860 --> 06:48:45,340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So yung first line po ay, 1533 06:48:46,390 --> 06:49:00,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: this is a report reported by Bank of the Phil Islands, Davao Corp. Meron pong transaction code RIRC. So ito po yung panina din. 1534 06:49:04,330 --> 06:49:07,250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: RIRC po ay Inward 1535 06:49:11,570 --> 06:49:30,700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Remittance International Credit to Beneficiaries Account. So ang transaction date po ay April 30, 2022. The amount in peso na naka-indicate po based on record is 5,662,519.97. Pesos, Your Honor. 1536 06:49:34,000 --> 06:49:37,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sino naman po ang counterparty sa transaksyon na iyan? 1537 06:49:37,440 --> 06:49:43,570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As indicated on the records po, China National Township, Your Honor. 1538 06:49:45,470 --> 06:50:02,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa transaction with transaction reference number ending S001, Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-23, pages 22a to 22b, last line. Ano naman po itong transaksyon na ito? 1539 06:50:11,600 --> 06:50:12,680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Last line po. 1540 06:50:14,460 --> 06:50:46,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ito po ay reported by the Bank of the Philippine Islands. Ang transaction code po ay RIRC din. So ibig sabihin po ito ay Inward Remittance International Credit to Beneficiaries Account. Ang date po ay April 30, 2024. Yung nakalagi po na in peso amount is 5,662,935.23 po, Your Honor. 1541 06:50:46,960 --> 06:51:05,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Before I forget, Your Honor, may I request for the marking of the resubmitted report that was earlier identified by the witness as Exhibit P-Roman numeral 2-7-34-AMLC. 1542 06:51:05,900 --> 06:51:08,000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted, but the marking will be done at a later time. 1543 06:51:09,260 --> 06:51:22,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And Your Honor, we would also like to manifest that there are several other transactions coming from China involving Cale88, but to abbreviate the proceedings, I will be dispensing with the questions relating to those transactions. 1544 06:51:22,780 --> 06:51:25,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It is in the summary anyway, Attorney May, correct? 1545 06:51:25,580 --> 06:51:26,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1546 06:51:26,040 --> 06:51:26,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Table 5? 1547 06:51:26,740 --> 06:51:32,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. So I will be proceeding to the STRs. 1548 06:51:35,560 --> 06:51:49,870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Attorney Benaventura, punta po tayo sa Exhibit P-Roman numeral number 2-7-24, page 2B. Bakit po ni-report ang transactions dito as suspicious transactions? 1549 06:51:50,890 --> 06:51:54,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ano pong line number po siya, Your Honor? 1550 06:52:04,960 --> 06:52:08,220 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Line 3. 1, 2, and 3. 1551 06:52:08,880 --> 06:52:10,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 1, 2, and 3 po? 1552 06:52:10,600 --> 06:52:11,660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, page 2B. 1553 06:52:11,860 --> 06:52:44,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Page 2B. So... As indicated po dito, yung tatlo po, one, two, and three. Yung una po ang nakalagay na reason for the report is there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification. Yung pangalawa po ang nakalagay ay there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification. Yung pangatlo po ang nakalagay ay There is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose, or economic justification, Your Honor. 1554 06:52:45,770 --> 06:52:48,890 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Punta naman po tayo sa Table 5 ng inyong summary. 1555 06:52:52,370 --> 06:53:03,450 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Base po sa inyong summary, Table 5, at sa mga CTRs at STRs ng Kale88, magkano po ang kabuahang halaga ng mga remittance mula sa China na natanggap ng Kale88? 1556 06:53:07,560 --> 06:53:34,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kabuahang halaga po, Your Honor. Yung aggregate amount po na nakalagay sa letter C, aggregate PHP na may subtotal A. Ang naka-indicate po sa aming tabular summary po ay 319,326,770.41 po, Your Honor. Based on the records, our tabular summary record, Your Honor. 1557 06:53:36,470 --> 06:53:37,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At 1558 06:53:37,440 --> 06:53:43,480 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: base din po sa summary na yan, ano po yung nature ng transaction? 1559 06:53:45,250 --> 06:54:04,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung title po ng Table 5, Your Honor, is the CTRS as it pertains to inward remittances to Cali88, Cali88 Foods Corporation from A, China, B, other countries. Item 5, Your Honor. This is based on the letter of the prosecution, Your Honor. 1560 06:54:05,080 --> 06:54:20,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At base din po dyan sa summary na yan, ano po kung mayroon man ang outflow remittance na makikita? or outflow transaction involving Cale88? 1561 06:54:22,840 --> 06:54:42,460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala po kaming nilagay na figures your honor kasi hindi po doon sa letter po ang nakalagay lang na request ay inward remittance po so hindi na po namin sinuma po or nilagay po dito for the record yung outflows po. 1562 06:54:46,800 --> 06:55:03,880 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Nung simula ng proceedings, paulit-ulit niyo pong namensyon yung salitang money laundering. Ngayon po, based on your observations and the documents that you testified on, what basis, if any, does the AMLC have to say na 1563 06:55:09,120 --> 06:55:14,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: sadyang 1564 06:55:14,360 --> 06:55:19,570 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: itinago ng mag-asawang Duterte Carpio ang tunay na pinagmulan. 1565 06:55:19,710 --> 06:55:21,670 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Jackson, Your Honor, no basis. 1566 06:55:21,970 --> 06:55:25,430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No basis, Counsel. Reform, Counsel. You can get to it. 1567 06:55:33,950 --> 06:55:51,290 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon, again, kanina binanggit mo yung salitang money laundering. Batay po sa mga record na sinuri ng AMLC, masasabi po ba ninyo na ang mga transaksyon ni VP Sara Duterte at Atty. Mans Carpio ay may layunin na pagtakpan ang pinagmulan ng pera at palabasing lehitimo? 1568 06:55:51,290 --> 06:55:52,950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Jackson, Your Honor, calls for an opinion. 1569 06:55:54,550 --> 06:55:55,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He 1570 06:55:55,030 --> 06:56:00,010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may give his opinion, counsel, given that he's executive director. 1571 06:56:01,970 --> 06:56:02,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Anyway, 1572 06:56:03,970 --> 06:56:07,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'll allow it. Witness may answer if he knows. If you know, Atty. Ronel, if you're 1573 06:56:07,870 --> 06:56:08,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in a position to answer. 1574 06:56:09,480 --> 06:56:25,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer, Your Honor. I was only given the portion and even then I am, it's difficult to ascertain at this point because it's just numbers, Your Honor. We have to, if... yun lang po, Your Honor. 1575 06:56:25,220 --> 06:56:29,340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Unable to answer, Your Honor. It's not in our records, Your Honor. Submitted. 1576 06:56:29,660 --> 06:56:30,780 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Let me rephrase, Your Honor. 1577 06:56:30,960 --> 06:56:31,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly rephrase it 1578 06:56:31,900 --> 06:56:32,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: anyway, but that's 1579 06:56:32,740 --> 06:56:33,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: his answer. 1580 06:56:33,660 --> 06:56:43,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Batay po sa record na sinuri ng AMLC, ano po ang pinapakita ng mga transaksyong iyong tinestify on kung mayroon man tungkol sa money laundering? 1581 06:56:43,470 --> 06:56:44,170 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. 1582 06:56:44,610 --> 06:56:48,190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What was the question again, Attorney May? Sorry, I didn't get it. 1583 06:56:48,330 --> 06:56:57,520 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Batay po sa record na sinuri ng AMLC at ang mga dokumentong pinakita at Pinag-testify yan ng ninyo. 1584 06:57:00,140 --> 06:57:06,480 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ano po ang pinapakita ng mga transaksyong nakapaloob dito kung mayroon man tungkol sa money laundering? 1585 06:57:06,480 --> 06:57:12,700 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection. Vague and no basis considering that the witness already answered that yes, he can't comment on money laundering. 1586 06:57:12,720 --> 06:57:15,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then he can give the same comment again, counsel. If he knows. 1587 06:57:17,140 --> 06:57:34,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I am unable to provide a comment on that, Your Honor, or answer because I only am testifying based on the records and insofar as I was confronted with the documents submitted, there was nothing that would make me conclude that one, Your Honor, or make an opinion on that. 1588 06:57:34,760 --> 06:57:45,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney General, I'm curious. Inflow and outflow is not, how shall I characterize it, a technical term used by the AMLC. 1589 06:57:46,380 --> 06:57:47,660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1590 06:57:48,180 --> 06:57:56,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Inflow and outflow was what was contained in the request by the House of Representatives when they asked for information from you. 1591 06:57:56,220 --> 06:57:56,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1592 06:57:57,200 --> 06:58:00,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And you just culled it from what they may have meant. 1593 06:58:01,420 --> 06:59:12,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay, Your Honor, yung as I think I may have answered that earlier po dun sa question ni prosecution but to clarify lang po, yung in our records po as reported by covered persons, wala po dun na Kinakategorize po ng covered person na whether inflow or outflow po yung transaction. What they do is put a particular reference or transaction reference code po for us to know ano po yung naging transaction. So yun po yung mga nababanggit ko kanina kaya po nagre-refer po ako dun sa AMC transaction code. Yun po ba ay remittance, over-the-counter withdrawal, or papasok or palabas po. So kami po, we're just based lang po sa pagkakaintindi namin na inflow in a layman's term po, it's papasok po. So hinanap po namin, in-analyze po namin yung mga transactions and not analyze, more on tabulating po ano yung sa mga codes yung papasok, alin po sa codes yung palabas. Pero meron din pong codes nga po kami na we are unable to determine, kaya po meron po kaming undetermined if inflow or outflow. 1594 06:59:12,220 --> 06:59:15,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You are unable to determine because nga? Tulad 1595 06:59:15,360 --> 06:59:15,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ng sinabi 1596 06:59:15,820 --> 06:59:20,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: niyo, hindi nga kasi technical terminology used by MLC ang 1597 06:59:20,630 --> 06:59:21,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: inflow 1598 06:59:21,210 --> 06:59:21,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: or outflow. 1599 06:59:22,010 --> 06:59:22,810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Tama po. 1600 06:59:22,910 --> 06:59:28,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ang tama ba sa pagkakaunawa ko pag sinabi niyo inflow? Dineposito. Pumasok sa account. 1601 06:59:30,180 --> 06:59:32,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kasama po yun. Pumasok po sa account. Tama po. 1602 06:59:32,700 --> 06:59:36,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Outflow. Lumabas mula sa account. Winidraw sa account. 1603 06:59:36,540 --> 06:59:37,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Tama po. 1604 06:59:37,600 --> 06:59:41,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kasama po yun. Okay. Attorney Mae, anything else? 1605 06:59:42,200 --> 06:59:42,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1606 06:59:43,180 --> 06:59:43,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please continue. 1607 06:59:44,080 --> 06:59:55,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Atty. Buenaventura, ipapakita ko lang po yung mga dokumentong sinabi ninyo, sinubmit ninyo sa hukumang ito. 1608 07:01:24,680 --> 07:01:25,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Copies of the court. 1609 07:01:34,120 --> 07:01:44,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Saan po yung front page nito kung meron man? Para makita ko lang. 1610 07:02:50,580 --> 07:02:52,340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, 1611 07:05:43,000 --> 07:06:08,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may I ask, these documents were duly certified to and are considered public documents in the possession of the MLC. Duly submitted by virtue of a subpoena issued by this court and received not by the parties but by the clerk of court who in turn gave the parties copies of the same. 1612 07:06:10,300 --> 07:06:12,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is this for purposes of authenticating it? 1613 07:06:13,000 --> 07:06:14,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Just identification, Your Honor. 1614 07:06:16,360 --> 07:06:25,460 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: But, Your Honor, the reason we're going through this process, Your Honor, is to dispense with possible objections, Your Honor. 1615 07:06:34,210 --> 07:06:39,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To the court's 1616 07:06:39,070 --> 07:07:21,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: mind, both BIR and AMLC documents are considered public documents under Section 19, Rule 132. And Duly attested to by the legal custodian. Duly presented by its head, both BAR and AMLC to the court. And absent any showing of either fraud, palpable mistake, or doubt as to the chain of custody after the court received it from both the AMLC and the BAR. I'm only referring to public documents. I believe that should obviate. Abit rather. 1617 07:07:21,920 --> 07:07:24,600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Then we can dispense with this identification. 1618 07:07:24,600 --> 07:07:25,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Any questions pertaining to, 1619 07:07:25,940 --> 07:07:52,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: again, Tony Mark absent, any allegation or proof of palpable mistake, fraud, or similar grounds. The court considers these public documents as having been duly executed, emanating from public records, and duly authentic. Again, the ruling applies to both AMLC and only the BIR because these are Documents emanating from government offices and are public documents from public records. 1620 07:07:53,160 --> 07:07:54,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. We can dispense with 1621 07:07:54,640 --> 07:07:55,500 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: the 1622 07:07:55,500 --> 07:07:58,480 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: questions. I have no further questions, Your Honor. 1623 07:07:59,090 --> 07:07:59,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That will be it? 1624 07:08:00,350 --> 07:08:00,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1625 07:08:01,910 --> 07:08:09,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You want to do cross right now or we can take up some Senator-Judge's questions or do you have any cross to begin with, Attorney Mark? 1626 07:08:10,190 --> 07:08:11,650 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Cross, Your Honor. Cross. 1627 07:08:11,890 --> 07:08:15,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You will cross? You first? Okay. 1628 07:08:15,620 --> 07:08:16,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. 1629 07:08:16,460 --> 07:08:19,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark, you may proceed with your cross-examination. Are you ready? 1630 07:08:19,620 --> 07:08:20,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. 1631 07:08:23,160 --> 07:08:24,680 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Afternoon, Atty. Buenaventura. 1632 07:08:24,700 --> 07:08:25,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Afternoon, Your Honor. 1633 07:08:25,380 --> 07:08:26,120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay po po ba kayo? 1634 07:08:26,340 --> 07:08:26,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay po po. 1635 07:08:27,300 --> 07:08:33,340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You are not a member of the Anti-Money Laundering Council proper, correct? 1636 07:08:33,860 --> 07:08:35,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. That's correct po. 1637 07:08:35,540 --> 07:09:14,950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, let me direct your attention to Section 7 of the AMLA of 2001. It says here, Creation of Anti-Money Laundering Council or AMLC. The Anti-Money Laundering Council is hereby created and shall be comprised of the Governor of the Banco Central ng Pilipinas as Chairman, the Commissioner of the Insurance Commission, and the Chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission as members. So based on this provision, the AMLC only has three members, namely the BSP Governor, the Insurance Commissioner, and the SEC Chairman, correct? 1638 07:09:15,390 --> 07:09:16,310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1639 07:09:16,870 --> 07:09:19,930 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Current BSP Governor is Mr. Eli Remolona? 1640 07:09:21,580 --> 07:09:22,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1641 07:09:22,820 --> 07:09:26,340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Current Insurance Commissioner is Atty. Ermar Benitez? 1642 07:09:27,320 --> 07:09:32,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. Atty. Ermar Benitez is the officer in charge. 1643 07:09:32,880 --> 07:09:33,240 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Who 1644 07:09:33,240 --> 07:09:35,080 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: is the current Insurance Commissioner? 1645 07:09:36,260 --> 07:09:38,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Atty. Reynaldo Regalado, 1646 07:09:38,300 --> 07:09:38,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 1647 07:09:39,670 --> 07:09:43,990 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you for that clarification. And current SEC Chairman is Atty. Francis Lim? 1648 07:09:44,210 --> 07:09:44,770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1649 07:09:45,330 --> 07:09:52,130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Very well. Now, your function as Executive Director is provided under a different section, which is Section 8, correct? 1650 07:09:53,480 --> 07:09:54,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1651 07:09:54,240 --> 07:10:19,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Let me direct your attention to Section 8 of the AMLA. Section 8, Creation of a Secretariat. The AMLC is hereby authorized to establish a secretariat to be headed by an Executive Director who shall be appointed by the Council for a term of five years. And then it goes on to discuss the qualifications. Do you confirm this? 1652 07:10:20,450 --> 07:10:20,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I 1653 07:10:20,890 --> 07:10:27,390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: cannot read, Your Honor, but based on what you mentioned, as far as I recall, yes, Your Honor. 1654 07:10:27,470 --> 07:10:35,030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, based on this provision, you are the head of the secretariat only and not the head of the AMLC proper, correct? 1655 07:10:35,410 --> 07:10:36,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1656 07:10:36,890 --> 07:10:42,650 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And you serve as the chief executive and administrative officer of the secretariat only, correct? 1657 07:10:42,930 --> 07:10:43,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1658 07:10:43,770 --> 07:10:46,830 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This involves the day-to-day operations as you mentioned a while ago? 1659 07:10:46,990 --> 07:10:47,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1660 07:10:47,730 --> 07:10:56,150 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, your authority does not exceed the authority of the AMLC Chairman and the two other members, correct? 1661 07:10:56,530 --> 07:10:57,610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1662 07:10:57,930 --> 07:11:02,350 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And you act under the control and supervision of the Council members, correct? 1663 07:11:02,590 --> 07:11:03,110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1664 07:11:03,370 --> 07:11:09,950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, you were only appointed as Executive Director on April 14, 2026. Do you confirm this? 1665 07:11:10,550 --> 07:11:11,250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1666 07:11:11,680 --> 07:11:21,300 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And for the record, this was only several days before your appearance before the House Committee on Justice on April 22, 2026, correct? 1667 07:11:21,580 --> 07:11:22,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1668 07:11:22,680 --> 07:11:33,310 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, let me direct your attention to Chapter 2, Rule 5, Section 2.4 of the Revised Implementing Rules and Regulations of the AMLA as amended. 1669 07:11:34,810 --> 07:11:35,410 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It 1670 07:11:35,410 --> 07:11:40,650 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: says here, the Council shall act unanimously in the discharge of its functions. 1671 07:11:42,240 --> 07:11:47,760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Atty. Buenaventura, when you say unanimous, it means all three council members must concur, correct? 1672 07:11:48,100 --> 07:11:48,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1673 07:11:49,200 --> 07:11:56,940 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, kung may incapacity yung isang council member, for example, yung duly authorized representative niya shall act instead, correct? 1674 07:11:57,300 --> 07:11:58,200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1675 07:11:58,420 --> 07:11:59,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Para tatlo pa rin, tama? 1676 07:11:59,700 --> 07:12:00,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1677 07:12:00,240 --> 07:12:07,840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And when not all three members concur, then there is no unanimity as required by law, correct? 1678 07:12:08,120 --> 07:12:08,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1679 07:12:08,780 --> 07:12:11,000 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Do you consider that as an unauthorized act? 1680 07:12:12,140 --> 07:12:12,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1681 07:12:12,900 --> 07:12:29,690 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: My question to you is this. When you appeared before the House Committee on Justice on April 22, 2026, did you obtain a prior written authority of the three Council members? 1682 07:12:32,130 --> 07:12:54,360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, the authority granted was pursuant to our Information Exchange Guidelines which the Council already approved in 2022. So that is an authority granted. There's a provision there which authorizes me to appear whenever we're subject of subpoena with competent authorities, Your Honor. 1683 07:12:54,580 --> 07:13:09,500 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Again, not responsive, Your Honor, but my question is very specific. Did you obtain a prior written authority of the three council members to specifically appear? Before the House Committee on Justice on that date. 1684 07:13:09,820 --> 07:13:15,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, Your Honor. At this point, I've already given so much leeway to Attorney Vinluan. So I'm constrained to object on the ground of... 1685 07:13:15,940 --> 07:13:16,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, it might 1686 07:13:16,480 --> 07:13:16,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: be 1687 07:13:16,660 --> 07:13:18,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: better for you to use the apple box. 1688 07:13:23,650 --> 07:13:41,680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objecting on the ground of irrelevance, Your Honor. This witness was, as he's testified on earlier, Your Honor, he's appearing before this honorable court by virtue or on the strength of the subpoena issued by this... Honorable Court. So, it's pursuant to the compulsory processes of this Honorable Court. 1689 07:13:41,900 --> 07:13:42,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: The objection is... 1690 07:13:42,960 --> 07:14:00,400 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And there's also presumption of regularity on the part of this witness, Your Honor. And just a last point, Your Honor, may I be allowed, Your Honor, to sit down while listening to the cross-examination questions, Your Honor? Because, Your Honor, to be very honest, my back is already... 1691 07:14:00,400 --> 07:14:01,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With 1692 07:14:01,800 --> 07:14:03,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the indulgence of Attorney Mark. 1693 07:14:03,260 --> 07:14:06,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sure, sure. I'm, of course... Of 1694 07:14:06,140 --> 07:14:06,340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: course. 1695 07:14:06,930 --> 07:14:08,650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Of course, Atty. May sit down. 1696 07:14:08,810 --> 07:14:09,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Allow the 1697 07:14:09,990 --> 07:14:35,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: court to make a ruling. Atty. Mark asked if he had prior authorization from the Council. Atty. Ronel answered that authorization to coordinate with the various branches was given by the MLC, I presume, to the Executive Director of the MLC, not you per se, Atty. Ronel, because you were not yet with the MLC. 1698 07:14:37,390 --> 07:14:58,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So kindly, I would have to overrule, attorney may kindly answer the question. So allow the chair. So wala kang prior authorization na mag-appear po dito. Ang binabasihan mo lang ay yung 2022 na resolusyon pa ng AMLC na binigyan ng kapangyari ng isang executive director na mag-appear sa mga patawag tulad dito. 1699 07:14:58,670 --> 07:15:03,190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. And based on that, we submit 1700 07:15:05,400 --> 07:15:07,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Memo to our council, Your Honor. 1701 07:15:07,700 --> 07:15:08,340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before or 1702 07:15:08,340 --> 07:15:08,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: after? 1703 07:15:09,420 --> 07:15:22,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Whenever we received the subpoena before, Poa, Your Honor. So, we submit memo and they just simply noted because indicated in our memo is that I'm appearing pursuant to the authority previously granted to them. So, they noted. 1704 07:15:23,200 --> 07:15:24,040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And they could 1705 07:15:24,040 --> 07:15:26,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: have prevented you from attending if they wanted to do so? 1706 07:15:26,920 --> 07:15:38,110 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor, because they can simply immediately mention or inform me that no. It's not within the authority granted before, had they wanted to, Your Honor. 1707 07:15:38,230 --> 07:15:50,650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To your knowledge, if you know, has that ever happened, na hindi pinayagan ng AMLC after the 2022 guidelines na mag-appear ang isang Executive Director sa anumang pagpapatawag, Portimano Congreso? 1708 07:15:52,310 --> 07:15:59,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As Executive Director, since at least April 14, 2026, as far as I recall, no, po, Your Honor. 1709 07:15:59,840 --> 07:16:00,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark, your witness. 1710 07:16:00,860 --> 07:16:07,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, sorry, I just have to make this clarification. I wasn't even there, Your Honor. I was asking about appearance before the House Committee on Justice. 1711 07:16:08,080 --> 07:16:09,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, you were there, not yet here. 1712 07:16:09,580 --> 07:16:10,020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. 1713 07:16:10,100 --> 07:16:12,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, then kindly answer. 1714 07:16:12,200 --> 07:16:18,740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And just to clarify, Your Honor, the question, I was specifically asking for a written authority, so we can cross-check, Your Honor. 1715 07:16:18,860 --> 07:16:25,760 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: But that was already answered, Your Honor. Earlier, the witness testified that he has a continuing authority to appear based on the guidelines. 1716 07:16:25,880 --> 07:16:26,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then let 1717 07:16:26,100 --> 07:16:34,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the witness answer according to that. Atty. Rudel, kindly answer, did you have prior written authority to appear before the House? Limit your answer to that question only. 1718 07:16:35,090 --> 07:16:41,810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Based on the guidelines issued to the, not specifically to my person, 1719 07:16:41,930 --> 07:16:44,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: but rather as to the Executive Director, Your 1720 07:16:44,430 --> 07:16:44,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 1721 07:16:45,330 --> 07:16:54,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. At any rate, you did not submit that Any written authority issued by the three council members before that House Committee on Justice, correct? 1722 07:16:55,140 --> 07:16:59,440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, no, I'm talking about the submission of that written authority if you submitted it. 1723 07:16:59,600 --> 07:17:05,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Same as earlier, Attorney May. Let's let the witness answer the questions. We'll give enough leeway to Attorney Mark as we gave you earlier. 1724 07:17:06,240 --> 07:17:06,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your 1725 07:17:06,640 --> 07:17:06,820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 1726 07:17:06,920 --> 07:17:07,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It 1727 07:17:07,100 --> 07:17:09,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: was not requested or required of me to submit that. 1728 07:17:09,980 --> 07:17:32,360 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. Not submitted. Okay. Now, during that hearing, you disclosed the following. I'll go through the documents one by one. Annex A or the summary of covered transaction reports and suspicious transaction reports of VP Sara and her husband, Attorney Man Scarpio for the period of 2006 to 2025. Do you confirm this? 1729 07:17:32,720 --> 07:17:33,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1730 07:17:33,640 --> 07:17:38,760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Annex B was financial intelligence reports on VP Sara. Do you confirm? 1731 07:17:39,900 --> 07:17:43,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May I check my records, Your Honor? 1732 07:17:43,420 --> 07:17:43,580 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Go ahead. 1733 07:18:04,850 --> 07:18:07,390 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Financial intelligence reports on VP Sara? 1734 07:18:08,070 --> 07:18:08,910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1735 07:18:09,130 --> 07:18:12,630 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And investigation reports on VP Sara and attorney months, do you confirm? 1736 07:18:12,910 --> 07:18:13,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1737 07:18:13,730 --> 07:18:20,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, all these documents that I mentioned were attached to a cover letter dated April 22, which was the date of your appearance, correct? 1738 07:18:21,270 --> 07:18:22,010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1739 07:18:22,130 --> 07:18:28,170 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And the information contained in these documents were confidential, correct? 1740 07:18:32,370 --> 07:18:34,350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry po, the information... 1741 07:18:34,350 --> 07:18:38,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In the CTRs, for example, they were confidential, correct? 1742 07:18:40,140 --> 07:18:47,850 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: From our perspective, they are confidential, Your Honor, subject to our guidelines, Your Honor. 1743 07:18:47,930 --> 07:19:07,940 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, my next question is this. When you disclosed confidential information related to those documents before the House Committee on Justice on April 22, 2026, Did you also obtain the prior written authority of the three council members? 1744 07:19:08,540 --> 07:19:14,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It was already included in the guidelines when I joined your honor. 1745 07:19:14,920 --> 07:19:15,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can 1746 07:19:15,100 --> 07:19:22,240 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you show us a copy of those guidelines where it indicates that you are authorized to disclose confidential information? 1747 07:19:24,300 --> 07:19:44,950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I don't have a copy with me, Your Honor. So if it will be subject of a subpoena, Your Honor, because that guideline itself is also confidential, I would say, Your Honor. So if this honorable court would subpoena, of course, subject to the order of this honorable court, we will comply, Your Honor. 1748 07:19:45,770 --> 07:19:57,240 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, we'll accept that answer for now. But just to belabor this point, the AMLC received a subpoena from the House Committee on Justice. On April 16, 2026, do you confirm this? 1749 07:20:17,850 --> 07:20:35,170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The date of the subpoena, Your Honor, is April 15, 2026, but the stamp as received on our end is a bit unclear on my records, Your Honor, but it should be, I think, two, one, or if memory serves, Your Honor, two or three days after 1750 07:20:35,170 --> 07:20:36,010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the date, Your Honor. 1751 07:20:36,110 --> 07:20:40,150 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, that's okay. Now, was it to sestecom or ad testificandum, or both? 1752 07:20:41,470 --> 07:20:42,970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Subpoena ad testificandum. 1753 07:20:43,490 --> 07:20:44,930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: et duces tecum, Your Honor. 1754 07:20:44,970 --> 07:20:51,270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Meaning, you were asked to submit certain documents relating to VP Sara and her spouse, Atty. Mance. 1755 07:20:51,630 --> 07:20:52,830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1756 07:20:52,990 --> 07:20:54,670 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And you did submit documents, correct? 1757 07:20:55,010 --> 07:20:55,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1758 07:20:55,950 --> 07:21:08,430 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, for context, at the time that the AMLC received the subpoena, ilang araw pa lang po kayong Executive Director since na-promote kayo noong April 14, 2026 lang, tama? 1759 07:21:11,200 --> 07:21:18,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po ako na-promote, Your Honor. I came from the private sector, Your Honor, before my immediate appointment to the 1760 07:21:18,180 --> 07:21:18,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: MLC, Your Honor. 1761 07:21:18,720 --> 07:21:19,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, 1762 07:21:19,040 --> 07:21:23,440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: let me reform that. So, ilang araw pa lang bago kayo na-appoint as Executive Director, tama? 1763 07:21:24,400 --> 07:21:25,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, from 1764 07:21:25,400 --> 07:21:26,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the time na-testify. 1765 07:21:26,820 --> 07:21:33,840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, kahit ilang araw pa lang kayo sa trabaho niyo, you obliged to bring the subpoenaed documents to the House Committee on Justice, correct? 1766 07:21:34,740 --> 07:21:36,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We complied, Your Honor. 1767 07:21:36,160 --> 07:21:36,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 1768 07:21:36,760 --> 07:21:42,180 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, the documents requested covered the years 2006 up to 2025, correct? 1769 07:21:42,500 --> 07:21:43,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1770 07:21:43,540 --> 07:21:45,440 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, 19 years, more or less? 1771 07:21:45,960 --> 07:21:47,340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. That is correct. 1772 07:21:47,680 --> 07:21:51,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: For both Attorney Manz and VP Sara, correct? 1773 07:21:52,060 --> 07:21:53,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1774 07:21:54,000 --> 07:22:08,110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, based on the foregoing, it took you only around several days to collate and analyze the confidential data and information as requested by the House Committee on Justice. Correct? 1775 07:22:08,430 --> 07:22:37,510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. Hindi lang po ako. Yung naggawa po nito, actually when I received the subpoena, I instructed the relevant units po in the same way to collate the information as existing as of the time we received the subpoena. In the same way po that kanina po, I mentioned that there were people who helped me prepare the table, mga analysts po, officers who were reviewing these records po, Your Honor. So ako po is just on the reviewing end din po, Your Honor. 1776 07:22:37,670 --> 07:22:37,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, 1777 07:22:37,970 --> 07:22:51,370 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I understand. So, in other words, Just to clarify that, so was the report on the confidential data and information already prepared prior to your appointment as Executive Director? 1778 07:22:51,730 --> 07:22:52,170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Wala 1779 07:22:52,170 --> 07:22:52,650 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: pa. 1780 07:22:52,750 --> 07:22:53,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It was you. 1781 07:22:54,030 --> 07:22:54,750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Upon 1782 07:22:54,750 --> 07:23:19,580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: receipt of the subpoena, I instructed the team to prepare our memo to our council to inform the receipt and of course whether we will be... will be complying in accordance with the guidelines and that's for that one. And then another track would be I ask my team, relevant team, to have to collate these records. 1783 07:23:19,660 --> 07:23:19,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, 1784 07:23:20,100 --> 07:23:27,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: so you mentioned the word team but was it you who caused your team to prepare the report on confidential data and information? 1785 07:23:27,460 --> 07:23:27,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, your honor. 1786 07:23:28,060 --> 07:23:47,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, my more important question to you is this. When you caused the preparation of the report on confidential data and information, about VP Sara in attorney months for submission to the House Committee on Justice. Did you also obtain any prior written authority from the three AMLC members? 1787 07:23:49,050 --> 07:23:50,750 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Already asked and answered, Your Honor. 1788 07:23:50,870 --> 07:23:53,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, this is a different authority. This is a different task. 1789 07:23:53,870 --> 07:23:56,010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Different already. Witness may answer. 1790 07:23:56,430 --> 07:23:58,810 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It's already included as well in our guidelines, 1791 07:23:59,010 --> 07:23:59,330 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 1792 07:24:00,010 --> 07:24:07,130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Is it specifically included that appearance before the House Committee on Justice? You already authorized or you just interpreted it 1793 07:24:07,130 --> 07:24:07,510 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: that way? 1794 07:24:07,610 --> 07:24:07,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. 1795 07:24:07,770 --> 07:24:08,010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As 1796 07:24:08,300 --> 07:24:17,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: far as I recall, Your Honor, because I don't have the document with me, it mentioned of competent authorities, Your Honor. 1797 07:24:17,860 --> 07:24:20,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Use a stronger mic, Atty. Mae. Witness already answered. 1798 07:24:22,740 --> 07:24:23,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: All right. May I 1799 07:24:23,880 --> 07:24:24,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: continue, Atty. Mark? 1800 07:24:25,280 --> 07:24:27,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So let me ask a more pointed question. 1801 07:24:29,410 --> 07:24:39,830 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: AMLC members specifically authorize you to submit confidential data and information about VP Sara and Attorney Manz to the House Committee on Justice. 1802 07:24:41,320 --> 07:24:44,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: For that specific one, no, Your Honor. It's already 1803 07:24:44,640 --> 07:24:45,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: again 1804 07:24:45,000 --> 07:24:51,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: embodied in the guidelines issued even before I joined as Executive Director, Your Honor. 1805 07:24:52,040 --> 07:25:10,610 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, now I'll take it further, also in line with the question of the presiding officer earlier. In your appearance and giving of your testimony before the Senate Court, Senate Impeachment Court today, did you obtain a specific prior written authority from the three AMLC members? 1806 07:25:12,400 --> 07:25:13,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That's 1807 07:25:13,000 --> 07:25:24,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: already included as well, Your Honor, in the guidelines. Although I submitted a memo to the Council regarding my appearance last week, supposed to be the first one to the subpoena and then my... 1808 07:25:25,820 --> 07:25:30,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: appearance for today and supposedly for tomorrow and for their notation, Your Honor. 1809 07:25:31,090 --> 07:25:47,830 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. Now, my question to you is this. Did the AMLC specifically identify the proper end users of the confidential data and information on VP Sara and Attorney Mance? 1810 07:25:48,550 --> 07:25:53,590 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: There is no specific for VP Sara and Mance. It's more on... 1811 07:25:53,590 --> 07:25:53,930 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's okay. 1812 07:25:54,490 --> 07:25:55,170 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: If... 1813 07:25:55,390 --> 07:26:16,790 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're already satisfied with that answer. So not specifically for VP Sara. Now, in your letter to Representative Luis Rodete, October 1, 2026, you attached tabular summaries containing confidential data and information on VP Sara in attorney months. Do you confirm this? 1814 07:26:17,130 --> 07:26:18,190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1815 07:26:18,470 --> 07:26:23,810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And these tabular summaries indicated aggregate amounts, correct? 1816 07:26:23,870 --> 07:26:24,610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 1817 07:26:25,170 --> 07:26:34,750 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Para lang po madaling maintindihan ng publiko, pag sinabing aggregate amounts, Atty. Buenaventura, tinotal nyo na po yung mga figures per category, tama? 1818 07:26:36,070 --> 07:26:37,090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Ang 1819 07:26:37,090 --> 07:26:37,910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po yung nasa request. 1820 07:26:38,230 --> 07:26:40,150 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Tapos may grand total din, tama? 1821 07:26:40,510 --> 07:26:41,270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 1822 07:26:41,410 --> 07:26:46,090 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, these aggregate amounts were hundreds of millions to billions, correct? 1823 07:26:46,430 --> 07:26:47,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 1824 07:26:47,130 --> 07:27:01,330 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, my question is this. Did the AMLC specifically authorize you to use the aggregate amounts in presenting confidential data and information on VP Sara in attorney months. 1825 07:27:02,050 --> 07:27:04,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No specific one, but Your Honor, we 1826 07:27:04,630 --> 07:27:08,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: submitted again a memo to our counsel regarding this one, Your Honor. 1827 07:27:09,010 --> 07:27:22,490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, did this honorable impeachment court specifically direct you to use aggregate amounts or yung mga totals in presenting confidential data and information on VP Sara in attorney months? 1828 07:27:23,230 --> 07:27:29,910 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, what we submitted is only based on the... We prepared this based on the letter of the... 1829 07:27:29,910 --> 07:27:30,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Correct. 1830 07:27:30,930 --> 07:27:37,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Don't get ahead of yourself. I'm just asking if you receive a directive from the Senate Impeachment Court to use those aggregate amounts? 1831 07:27:39,330 --> 07:27:41,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No specific instruction on that, Your Honor. 1832 07:27:41,970 --> 07:27:48,310 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, in fact, there was no court subpoena for these tabular summaries containing aggregate amounts, correct? 1833 07:27:50,480 --> 07:28:07,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We can say there is, Your Honor, based on our letter, we indicated there that the last paragraph, Your Honor, if I may read po, for the avoidance of doubt, the tabular summary is furnished solely in relation to the subpoenas duchess diecom dated July 21, 2026. 1834 07:28:07,780 --> 07:28:15,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You're not being responsive. I'm asking whether or not for these tabular summaries, did the court issue a subpoena specifically for these? 1835 07:28:16,120 --> 07:28:20,270 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I answered this earlier, Your Honor. Specifically, no, Your Honor. 1836 07:28:20,670 --> 07:28:31,280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, in other words, pwede nyo namang ibigay na lang yung number of inflow and outflow transactions without aggregating the figures involved, correct? 1837 07:28:33,130 --> 07:28:34,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Pwede ba yun? 1838 07:28:34,250 --> 07:28:35,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Argumentative, Your Honor. 1839 07:28:36,390 --> 07:28:37,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer, he can answer. 1840 07:28:38,610 --> 07:28:39,130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Na 1841 07:28:39,130 --> 07:28:44,090 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: hindi aggregated amounts? Pwede namang number of CTRs? 1842 07:28:44,150 --> 07:28:44,390 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Pwede po. 1843 07:28:45,090 --> 07:28:49,270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Pero dahil tinotal nyo yung mga figures, mas malaki tuloy tingnan, tama? 1844 07:28:50,080 --> 07:28:51,760 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Argumentative and speculative, Your Honor. 1845 07:28:52,120 --> 07:28:55,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You're already there, counsel. Move on. Move on to your next point, counsel. 1846 07:28:55,540 --> 07:29:07,060 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, at any rate, the idea of aggregate amounts only appeared in Representative Luis Trost's request letter dated September 29, 2026, correct? 1847 07:29:07,360 --> 07:29:08,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Already asked and answered, Your Honor. 1848 07:29:09,100 --> 07:29:09,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama 1849 07:29:09,540 --> 07:29:10,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. Tama po, Your Honor. 1850 07:29:10,620 --> 07:29:12,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer. Witness can answer. 1851 07:29:12,860 --> 07:29:15,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po. Tama po yan. 1852 07:29:15,400 --> 07:29:26,260 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, it was only Representative Luistro who requested to indicate the aggregate amounts in presenting confidential data and information of VP Sara and Attorney Mance, correct? 1853 07:29:28,380 --> 07:29:29,300 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: As indicated 1854 07:29:29,300 --> 07:29:30,300 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: in the... 1855 07:29:30,300 --> 07:29:31,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Keep 1856 07:29:32,170 --> 07:29:34,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it a notch, a bit lower, Attorney Mark. 1857 07:29:36,590 --> 07:29:37,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer? 1858 07:29:38,270 --> 07:29:51,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Based on our reply, yes, Your Honor, but again... As indicated in our letter, we are furnishing this solely in relation to the subpoenaed Duchess Tycom dated July 21, 2026, Your Honor. 1859 07:29:52,330 --> 07:29:59,890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any rate, you obliged to Representative Luisto's request and provided tabular summaries with aggregate amount. 1860 07:30:05,420 --> 07:30:16,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Part of that request is to provide aggregate amounts of covered transaction reports or CTRs and suspicious transaction reports or STRs, correct? 1861 07:30:16,420 --> 07:30:17,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 1862 07:30:17,100 --> 07:30:30,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Actually, natuto na rin po yung publiko about CTRs and STR sa mga nakaraang pagdinig natin. Pero balikan lang natin ulit, covered transactions are defined under section 3B of the AMLA, correct? 1863 07:30:30,900 --> 07:30:32,820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I can't recall po the specific 1864 07:30:32,820 --> 07:30:33,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: section 1865 07:30:33,800 --> 07:30:37,080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: you're on. But it's defined under the AMLA, yes po. 1866 07:30:37,260 --> 07:31:14,690 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Right. Now let me direct your attention to that provision. It says here, covered transactions is a transaction in cash or other equivalent monetary instrument involving a total amount In excess of 500,000 pesos within one banking day for covered persons under section 3A8, a single casino cash transaction involving an amount in excess of 5 million pesos or its equivalent in any other currency. So basta lampas 500,000, ire-report po sa CTR as CTR sa AMLA. Tama? 1867 07:31:15,250 --> 07:31:34,550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po except yung sa casino po na 5 million pesos and yung real estate broker and developer po na 7.5. Yung nabasa niyo po or yung hindi ko po kasi makita from my perspective po dito yung screen. Pero may kulang po yun po yung sa real estate broker and developer. 1868 07:31:34,730 --> 07:31:42,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, we'll help you with the hard copy. But insofar as the bank institutions, 500,000 pataas nire-report as CTR, tama po? 1869 07:31:42,970 --> 07:31:43,550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah, tama po. 1870 07:31:43,690 --> 07:31:49,480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Na automatic reporting po yan by the banks. and other covered persons. Tama po? 1871 07:31:51,760 --> 07:31:55,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Automatic in the sense that they are mandatorily required to report po. 1872 07:31:55,820 --> 07:32:56,460 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. We're satisfied with that answer. On the other hand, Section 3B1 of the AMLA defines suspicious transactions as follows. Suspicious transactions are transactions with covered persons regardless of the amounts involved where any of the following circumstances exist. Number 1, there is no underlying legal or trade obligation, purpose or economic justification. Number 2, the client is not properly identified. Number 3, the amount involved is not commensurate with the business or financial capacity of the client. Number 4, taking into account all known circumstances, it may be perceived that the client's transaction is structured in order to avoid being the subject of reporting documents under the Act. Requirements po. Requirements under the Act No. 5, any circumstance relating to the transaction which is observed to deviate from the profile of the client and or the client's past transactions with the covered person. 1873 07:32:56,680 --> 07:32:56,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 1874 07:32:56,980 --> 07:33:05,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, you are willing to stipulate, Your Honor, that the matters being read by the defense counsel are matters stated in the law, Your Honor. 1875 07:33:05,500 --> 07:33:05,720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. 1876 07:33:05,800 --> 07:33:07,600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So we're willing to stipulate on what the law provides. 1877 07:33:07,820 --> 07:33:10,360 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Up to point No. 7, Your Honor. 1878 07:33:11,290 --> 07:33:11,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 1879 07:33:14,600 --> 07:33:16,580 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So I take that to be a yes. 1880 07:33:16,720 --> 07:33:17,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We 1881 07:33:17,040 --> 07:33:18,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: stipulate on what the law provides, Your Honor. 1882 07:33:18,980 --> 07:33:30,820 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So pagdating sa suspicious transaction, Atty. Buenaventura, this is subjective in that the banks and other covered persons exercise discretion in determining if the transaction is suspicious, correct? 1883 07:33:31,660 --> 07:33:58,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. However, it's not purely subjective, Your Honor, because the AMLC has issued AMLC registration and reporting guidelines and ngayon po guidelines on reporting and compliance submissions po. So meron pong mga guides po doon how they would determine it whether what is suspicion, ano po yung mga potential po in relation naman po doon sa kung ano po yung nasa suspicious circumstances, Your Honor. 1884 07:33:58,780 --> 07:34:07,370 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I understand that but Don't you agree that even in the IRR, it's a verbatim excerpt of the AMLA? 1885 07:34:29,800 --> 07:34:46,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: kung ano po yung i-report or kung ano po yung mga potential na red flags. Meron din po mga nakalagay doon kung anong specific industry po, kung insurance yan, kung... Kung banks po, may mga nakalagay na rin po. So it's foreign guidelines issued by the AMLC po. 1886 07:34:46,780 --> 07:34:52,600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, thank you for that clarification. At any rate, it is the banks or the covered institutions that make that determination, correct? 1887 07:34:52,660 --> 07:34:53,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your 1888 07:34:53,060 --> 07:34:53,340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor, in 1889 07:34:53,340 --> 07:34:53,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: accordance with 1890 07:34:53,940 --> 07:34:55,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: our issued guidelines. 1891 07:34:56,040 --> 07:35:18,190 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, very well. Now, you mentioned earlier that you aggregated amounts in CTRs and STRs of VP Sara and attorney mans. Pero ito pong tanong ko, meron po ba kayong personal knowledge or authentic records? para masigurado na lahat ng transactions na iyon ay income ni VP Sara at attorney months. 1892 07:35:18,510 --> 07:35:28,510 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, irrelevant, Your Honor. That's business records, Your Honor, and official entries, which are exceptions to the hearsay rule, Your Honor. 1893 07:35:28,670 --> 07:35:37,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then the witness can just answer, Your Honor. Then let the witness answer in that manner. He's a lawyer and top the bar. Attorney Ronell, you would know how to answer that question. 1894 07:35:38,010 --> 07:35:57,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. What we have on records are those reported only by the covered persons. It does not mention, these records do not mention income. I think that was the question, Poa. So, the records do not mention income, Your Honor. So, we are unable to 1895 07:35:57,050 --> 07:35:59,090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: determine it from that one, Your Honor. 1896 07:35:59,110 --> 07:36:09,050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you for that answer. Now, meron ba kayong personal knowledge? or authentic records para masigurado ang pinanggalingan o source ng mga pondong ito. 1897 07:36:09,700 --> 07:36:19,240 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Same objection, Your Honor. Again, this is an exception to the hearsay rule, Your Honor. So this witness need not have personal knowledge on these documents. 1898 07:36:19,700 --> 07:36:23,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Same ruling. Witness may answer if he knows. 1899 07:36:24,900 --> 07:36:25,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He 1900 07:36:25,320 --> 07:36:29,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may also state if he does not know. Alam niyo daw po ba kung saan ang galing yung mga pera ngayon? 1901 07:36:30,530 --> 07:36:44,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po, Your Honor. We only base it... I'm able to answer, Your Honor, actually. It's based only on the records that we have. It doesn't mention where the funds originated, Your Honor. Except yun lang po. Halimbawa may remittance, may nakalagay po kung saan 1902 07:36:44,030 --> 07:36:46,610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ang galing. Pero it's always based on the records lang po, Your Honor. 1903 07:36:46,750 --> 07:36:48,450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. We're okay with that. 1904 07:36:48,710 --> 07:37:00,190 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, dahil nga po wala kayong personal knowledge or hindi ganun ka... hindi sinasabi yun ng records na meron kayo... As to the source of funds, hindi niyo rin po masasabing illegal ito, tama? 1905 07:37:01,450 --> 07:37:04,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Tama po. Based on records lang po. 1906 07:37:04,650 --> 07:37:12,030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, in fact, dun sa pag-aggregate niyo ng mga inflows and transactions, hindi lang cash at check deposits ang sinama niyo, tama? 1907 07:37:12,230 --> 07:37:12,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 1908 07:37:13,050 --> 07:37:18,890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You also included the following. Number one, insurance transactions. Tama po? 1909 07:37:19,030 --> 07:37:19,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 1910 07:37:20,080 --> 07:37:21,700 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Investment transactions. Tama po? 1911 07:37:22,440 --> 07:37:26,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Insurance and investment insofar as they are reported to us. 1912 07:37:26,080 --> 07:37:30,640 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Tama po. Nakalagay po yan doon sa report niyo. Number three, loan-related transactions. Kasama po? 1913 07:37:30,800 --> 07:37:33,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. As long as they are reported. 1914 07:37:33,460 --> 07:37:38,880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Lahat naman to assume that as long as they are reported. Transfer of funds between own accounts. Tama po? 1915 07:37:40,110 --> 07:37:40,550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama 1916 07:37:40,550 --> 07:37:43,310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. As reported lang po. 1917 07:37:43,610 --> 07:37:46,850 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: May sinabi rin po kayo, other miscellaneous items, sinama nyo rin po. 1918 07:37:46,970 --> 07:37:47,550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 1919 07:37:47,850 --> 07:38:04,910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, yung transfer of funds between own accounts, for example, so kapag nilipat mo yung 500,000, 600,000 from your BPI to your BDO, reported yun na CTR as inflow. Pero hindi naman yung income sayo, tama? 1920 07:38:05,090 --> 07:38:06,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po siya reported, 1921 07:38:06,330 --> 07:38:33,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: your honor, as inflow. Particularly for that matter po kasi I was discussing with... with my team po when we were preparing this. Yung inter-account transfer po, yung nilagay po namin yun doon sa undetermined if inflow or outflow kasi po hindi po namin madetermined based sa report lang kung lumabas pa or hindi pero same account holder po kasi yung naka-indicate tas wala po nakalagay if 1922 07:38:40,330 --> 07:38:41,130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any 1923 07:38:41,130 --> 07:38:52,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: rate sinama nyo yun dun sa report nyo, yung undetermined na yan. Tama po? Alright. Now, very well. Dun po sa investment-related transactions, you included the following as well. Number one, insurance policies. Tama? 1924 07:38:53,030 --> 07:38:54,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Basta po na-report po sa amin. 1925 07:38:54,490 --> 07:38:54,670 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. 1926 07:38:54,850 --> 07:38:56,250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Time deposits. Tama? 1927 07:38:56,370 --> 07:38:57,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po. Basta po na-report sa amin. 1928 07:38:58,270 --> 07:39:00,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: UITF or Trust and Agency Investments. 1929 07:39:01,100 --> 07:39:02,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po, basta po na-report po. 1930 07:39:02,560 --> 07:39:06,580 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Para lang sa kalaman ng lahat, yung UITF Unit Investment Trust Fund, tama po? 1931 07:39:07,510 --> 07:39:09,070 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Ay... Hindi nyo na-report. It's okay. 1932 07:39:09,190 --> 07:39:11,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, securities and bonds, sinama nyo po rin, diba? 1933 07:39:11,950 --> 07:39:13,690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po, basta reported po sa amin. 1934 07:39:13,810 --> 07:39:18,250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Bank-reported transactions with an insurance company as a party, sinama nyo po? 1935 07:39:18,470 --> 07:39:20,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Basta po reported po sa amin. 1936 07:39:20,270 --> 07:39:25,330 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Bank-reported transactions with a securities broker as a party, tama po? 1937 07:39:26,050 --> 07:39:27,610 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Basta po reported sa amin, yes po. 1938 07:39:27,650 --> 07:39:33,880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, you also included in inflow transactions Rollover amounts in bank accounts, correct? 1939 07:39:34,570 --> 07:39:36,190 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Basta po na-report po sa amin. 1940 07:39:36,290 --> 07:39:52,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sinama, okay. Now, for the benefit of the viewing public, I'll just try to illustrate rollover amounts and then I'll ask questions along the way. So, if Juan de la Cruz, for example, deposits 600,000 in a bank, that is a covered transaction under AMLA, tama po? 1941 07:39:53,690 --> 07:39:55,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, 600,000. 1942 07:39:55,190 --> 07:39:58,490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, ire-report ng bank sa AMLC as an inflow, correct? 1943 07:40:00,290 --> 07:40:17,970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po namin, wala po kaming recording ng inflow. I-re-record po namin na based po sa report ng banko using the proper code po. And malamang po kung kung tanong nyo po is inflow ba siya, kung pumasok po in 1944 07:40:17,970 --> 07:40:19,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: loose definition po, yes. 1945 07:40:19,150 --> 07:40:42,050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, okay. Now, if that earns interest by month's end, the time deposit account is closed. Kasi sa example ko po, time deposit, just to be clear. And the amount is credited to the main account as 600,100 na, for example. That is reported again as a covered transaction under AMLA. Tama po? 1946 07:40:42,150 --> 07:40:50,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At this point, Your Honor, I would already object, Your Honor, because we are already dwelling on assumptions and speculations, Your Honor. We're not dealing with actual cases. 1947 07:40:50,470 --> 07:40:50,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I 1948 07:40:50,710 --> 07:40:52,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: can respond properly, Your Honor. 1949 07:40:52,110 --> 07:41:37,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Allow me to answer, Atty. Mark. The members of the court, I believe, would be interested to know this as well. How this is being viewed by AMLC and if this is being reported as well. So, klaruhin natin, Atty. Marca, nagpasok ng pera sa time deposit. Nung nag-tapos na yung period ng time deposit, so nung pinasok yung pera sa time deposit, ni-report, covered transaction because above 500,000. Nung... Natapos na yung time deposit, let's say after 3 months or 6 months or whatever, 1 year, dineposited niyo na yung pera sa account niya. Ire-report din ba? Is that a covered transaction too? Attorney Ronel? 1950 07:41:40,460 --> 07:41:42,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry po, nawala po ako doon sa... 1951 07:41:42,260 --> 07:41:46,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nagbukas ng time deposit si depositor. 1952 07:41:47,260 --> 07:41:48,200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Naglagay po ng pera po doon. 1953 07:41:48,200 --> 07:41:49,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Naglagay ng pera sa pangko. 1954 07:41:49,640 --> 07:41:51,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Mahigit 500,000, yes po, ire-report po yun. 1955 07:41:52,880 --> 07:41:58,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ngayon, nung natapos na yung period nung time deposit, di ba may period yan? 3 months, 6 months, 1 year? 1956 07:41:58,980 --> 07:42:00,580 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sa example ko, your owner, sorry. 1957 07:42:01,000 --> 07:42:02,660 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: 30 days na lang your owner. 1958 07:42:02,660 --> 07:42:03,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ah, 30 days. 1959 07:42:05,000 --> 07:42:12,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kumita na yung 100 piso. Yung 600,100 pesos ba i-report uli ng banko? 1960 07:42:14,090 --> 07:42:16,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung... Yes. As a 1961 07:42:16,370 --> 07:42:16,690 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: covered 1962 07:42:16,690 --> 07:42:18,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: transaction, not suspicious transaction? 1963 07:42:18,470 --> 07:42:22,830 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang sagot po doon ay yes kung yung dalawa lang po na yun yung transaction. 1964 07:42:23,660 --> 07:42:24,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What 1965 07:42:24,460 --> 07:42:26,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: do you mean ba yung dalawang yun 1966 07:42:26,020 --> 07:42:26,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: lang ang transaction? 1967 07:42:27,040 --> 07:42:49,280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kapag po kasi po yung time deposit po pag 30 days 30 days po natapos po tapos yung parang rollover po napapasok ulit para po yung renewal po kung meron Kung sumalamang po, 1968 07:42:49,380 --> 07:43:21,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: medyo malaking amount din po yun. So kung yun po ay sa same account, yung covered person po, based sa reporting guidelines po namin, maaaring hindi na po nila i-report yun. Yung unang beses lang. Tapos kung yung final na withdrawal. Pero meron po kaming mga reports, I think yung mga dati rin po, na nare-report, nare-report po, I think, nare-report po talaga nila na may pumasok, may lumabas. Tapos pag na-renew po. Pero based po sa mga recent guidelines po namin, hindi na po kailangan talaga i-report yun. 1969 07:43:22,420 --> 07:43:23,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kailan pa po yung guideline na yun? 1970 07:43:24,480 --> 07:43:28,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ang tanda ko po, ito po ay yung 2 or 3 years ago po. 1971 07:43:29,300 --> 07:43:30,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 2 or 3 years ago lang? 1972 07:43:30,780 --> 07:43:31,440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, yes 1973 07:43:31,440 --> 07:43:31,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. 1974 07:43:31,840 --> 07:43:33,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yan na ba yung batayan ninyo ngayon? 1975 07:43:33,580 --> 07:43:38,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Apo, pero simultaneous pa po yung application kasi po. 1976 07:43:40,610 --> 07:43:48,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung guidelines namin ngayon tsaka yung before po kasi po nag-adjust pa po yung covered person po namin na mag-implement sa system po nila. 1977 07:43:49,170 --> 07:43:58,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Unaan na kita, attorney Mark. So, posible na ang ilang sa mga transaksyon na binanggit mo rito ay pasok pa rin doon bagaman may guidelines na kayo 2 to 3 years ago na hindi na dapat? 1978 07:44:00,930 --> 07:44:01,410 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It's 1979 07:44:01,410 --> 07:44:01,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: possible. 1980 07:44:01,930 --> 07:44:21,210 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It's possible lang po pero yung sa amin po, Yung nasa summary po at yung mga binigay po namin ng CTR-STR, ito po yung as reported po ng covered person. So, kung if we have to determine po kung yun nga pa ay ni-rollover or hindi, we have to go deep one by one po talaga. 1981 07:44:21,550 --> 07:44:23,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Which you cannot answer right now. 1982 07:44:23,190 --> 07:44:23,950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah, yes po. 1983 07:44:24,110 --> 07:44:24,430 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 1984 07:44:24,490 --> 07:44:24,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Mark? 1985 07:44:25,130 --> 07:44:26,090 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: If I may, Your Honor, just speak to Your Honor. 1986 07:44:26,090 --> 07:44:26,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney May? 1987 07:44:26,950 --> 07:44:37,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, may the defense counsel, Your Honor, be reminded or if not admonished not to be flashing. documents on screen, Your Honor, without laying the predicate or laying the basis for the flashing of those documents? 1988 07:44:39,200 --> 07:44:57,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's again a demonstrative tool, Atty. May. The court will allow it. He was in the process of answering, asking rather the witness, although indeed, Atty. Mark, the savings account heading may be not that accurate given that it's a time deposit. 1989 07:44:59,600 --> 07:45:06,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I too get confused. But again, you explain it anyway. Atty. Mae, I would have to overrule if it's an objection. And if it's a 1990 07:45:06,480 --> 07:45:18,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: manifestation, as duly noted. Kindly proceed, Atty. Mark. Yeah, since the... Atty. Sorry, Senator-Judge Pia is recognized. Apologies. With your indulgence, 1991 07:45:18,490 --> 07:45:18,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark. 1992 07:45:18,890 --> 07:45:49,760 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Atty. Pa rin naman ako, so okay lang naman. No, just to continue on this line of clarification. You mentioned the word kung na-rollover. So, may I get clarity that if it's a simple rollover, meaning it stays in that same account, if it's a time deposit, it stays in the time deposit. If it's a saving account, it stayed in the saving account. Are you saying under current rules, hindi na yan marireport ulit? Yung isang, yung unang beses lang? 1993 07:45:50,020 --> 07:45:52,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sa pagkakaalala ko po doon sa rules, yes 1994 07:45:52,880 --> 07:45:53,160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: po. 1995 07:45:53,260 --> 07:45:53,280 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So, 1996 07:45:53,280 --> 07:45:55,340 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: hindi tayo ganun ka-sure? Would you like to check the rules? 1997 07:45:56,330 --> 07:46:13,130 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Kung may mabibigay po sana na rules. Pero yun po kasi ay isa sa diniscuss ko rin po sa team before, part of my preparations po for testifying, yung po matter na yan na rollover po. So yun po yung napag-discussan po namin. 1998 07:46:13,290 --> 07:46:48,940 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Siguro Mr. Presiding Officer, we want the witness to be very certain about his answer now or... At some very, at some point in time very soon, we can give him access to his notes or the rules to clarify this kasi this is very important, Mr. President. And dagdag ko pa sa questions ko, kung hindi naman na rollover but I think it was similar to the question of the presiding officer, nalipat from the time deposit doon naman sa, let's say, binalik sa savings account or sa checking account, would your answer be the same na hindi na based sa pagkakaalala mo? 1999 07:46:49,380 --> 07:46:51,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yan po, separate report na po yan. 2000 07:46:51,800 --> 07:47:31,800 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So, okay, let me illustrate. So, let's say may time deposit and I think this is very common. May time deposit, napansin ng isang kliyente na or baka sinabihan pa siya ng kanyang, ano matawag sa kanya, banker na Ma'am, sayang naman tong pera mo. Ang tagal lang dito. Nasa savings ang liit-liit. Checking ang liit-liit. Pasok nyo na lang sa time deposit. O sige, pasok natin. Eh, let's say the amount is 495. Eh, kumita ng more than 5,000. So, umabot. So, sa first, hindi na report. Pagpasok sa time deposit, after the time, umabot na ng 500,000. Ire-report na yon. 2001 07:47:32,300 --> 07:47:33,340 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In excess of 500 2002 07:47:33,340 --> 07:47:34,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: ,000, yes po. 2003 07:47:34,020 --> 07:47:44,800 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So, ire-report na yun. O tapos, naisip nung client after, I don't know, 3 months, 6 months, I need the money, bibili ako ng kotse. So, binalik na muna sa checking account, ire-report ulit. 2004 07:47:44,860 --> 07:47:45,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po, ire-report po. 2005 07:47:45,780 --> 07:48:16,390 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Ayun. So, balik tayo dun sa one of the first document you presented na nakalagay Annex A. Possible yun na lumalabas-pasok lang yun depending on the desire of the client to earn the maximum interest or depending if may gagalawin siya dun sa pera. Ano lang, report ng report yun. So you could be reporting 500k 3 or 12 times a year if monthly lumilipat yun, lumilipat lang from one account of the same client to another. That is possible. 2006 07:48:18,970 --> 07:48:33,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Possible po. As long as yung sa amin po, hindi po namin, ang makita po namin kung ano po yung na-report ni covered person po. So kung ano man po yung desire ng client niya, kung ano po yung naging transaction, as long as they are reported to us, yun po yung makikita namin. 2007 07:48:33,450 --> 07:48:47,810 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So kung hindi na tuloy ang pagbili niya ng kotse, di nasa time deposit, natapos yung time deposit, ma'am, ro-roll over namin na, ay teka teka kasi kailangan ko ng pang down payment sa kotse, balik ko muna sa account ko. 2008 07:48:49,500 --> 07:48:59,140 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So, second time, i-re-record yun, diba? According to you. And then, nagbago isip niya, eh, teka muna, di mo na bibili ng kotse. Sige, time deposit ulit. Ma-re-record ulit yun. 2009 07:48:59,460 --> 07:48:59,860 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So, 2010 07:49:00,640 --> 07:49:06,080 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: naka-tatlong beses na, 500 times 3, and so on. Even though it's just the one amount. 2011 07:49:06,880 --> 07:49:07,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay, 2012 07:49:07,660 --> 07:49:12,540 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: and yet you submitted a document na nakahighlight pa talaga in bold yung transactions. 2013 07:49:13,200 --> 07:49:26,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: We submitted it in pursuant to the letter po of the prosecution and we submitted po dun sa letter po namin. Also, we treated it as part of the submission to this honorable court po. 2014 07:49:26,600 --> 07:49:28,820 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Request ng prosecution na i-bold yun. 2015 07:49:30,730 --> 07:49:32,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the indulgence of Senator 2016 07:49:32,690 --> 07:49:36,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Judge Pia um, the others, we're not timing. 2017 07:49:37,040 --> 07:49:38,820 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay, no problem. I apologize for that. 2018 07:49:38,880 --> 07:49:39,280 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: It 2019 07:49:39,280 --> 07:49:48,540 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: really was just pursuant in fairness to your question and I hope I was able to enlighten myself. Thank you very much to our colleagues for allowing me to do this. 2020 07:49:48,540 --> 07:49:50,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But we will register you third 2021 07:49:50,060 --> 07:49:51,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in line because two have 2022 07:49:51,020 --> 07:49:51,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: registered to make an 2023 07:49:51,920 --> 07:49:52,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: interjection. 2024 07:49:52,220 --> 07:49:54,500 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Kahit na i-second round muna ako kasi hindi 2025 07:49:54,500 --> 07:49:54,980 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: naman ako, 2026 07:49:55,160 --> 07:49:59,020 Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: hindi ko intention na abusuhin yung time ko. Thank you so much. Thank you. 2027 07:49:59,020 --> 07:50:10,770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge. The chair made that interjection to obviate the objection and lengthen the argument between the two counsels. So anyway, Attorney Mark, kindly proceed with your cross. 2028 07:50:11,750 --> 07:50:39,870 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. But considering, Your Honor, that it's getting exciting, can we just move on with that same line of questioning? So for example, in that particular... If the time deposit is 12 months, for example, and the process repeats per month, meaning the accrual of interest, yung 600,000 will be around 12 times na in the AMLC reporting, correct? 2029 07:50:40,170 --> 07:50:42,770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: If they are reported po sa amin, yes po. 2030 07:50:42,890 --> 07:50:55,700 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Meaning yung around 600,000 lang talaga, ang aggregated total niya in AMLC reporting will be around 12x or 7,800,000 already, tama? 2031 07:50:56,080 --> 07:51:02,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ay, sorry po, hindi po masundan yung pag-compute po. Pero basta na-report po sa amin, yes po. 2032 07:51:02,940 --> 07:51:14,480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. Now, when in fact, dun sa senaryo na yun, a little over 600,000 lang talaga yung true wealth, tama? Hindi yung 7.8 million na tinotal, tama? 2033 07:51:14,780 --> 07:51:15,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, sir. 2034 07:51:15,320 --> 07:51:22,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. In other words, Bloated na yung amount sa reporting kapag aggregated total ang ginamit natin, tama? 2035 07:51:25,300 --> 07:51:25,980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your 2036 07:51:25,980 --> 07:51:26,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor, yung... 2037 07:51:28,620 --> 07:51:46,700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: If your perspective po is the money involved, pero hindi po kasi namin tinitignan yun sa reporting. Ang nare-report po sa amin is the transaction po. So, regardless po kung saan nagaling yung pera, ano yung original ng pera, hindi po yun yung natitignan po namin. Titignan po namin yung transaction. 2038 07:51:47,080 --> 07:51:55,780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Precisely. But in that scenario, if you aggregate the total or you provide an aggregated total, it's way much bigger than the actual money involved, correct? 2039 07:51:57,010 --> 07:51:58,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Aggregated na nga po eh. 2040 07:51:59,130 --> 07:52:04,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I cannot answer for the actual money involved but with the transaction, it's that, as reported po. 2041 07:52:04,770 --> 07:52:05,090 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, 2042 07:52:05,090 --> 07:52:11,570 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: very good. Now, my question to you is this. Didn't a similar scenario of bloating happen in this case? 2043 07:52:11,810 --> 07:52:16,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, at this point, we object to the use of bloating, Your Honor. 2044 07:52:16,870 --> 07:52:22,910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: There was a predicate question, Your Honor, and he never... Disputed it, Your Honor. 2045 07:52:22,950 --> 07:52:23,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Neither did he mention 2046 07:52:23,950 --> 07:52:28,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the word bloating, counsel. You can get to where you want to get to, counsel. 2047 07:52:28,490 --> 07:52:30,030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You mentioned 2048 07:52:30,030 --> 07:52:51,370 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: a while ago in response to the query of the presiding officer if it is possible for that kind of scenario to happen. Now let me ask a more pointed question. If you review your documents now, did that... Same scenario happened when rollover amounts were indicated in the CTRs and STRs? 2049 07:52:51,470 --> 07:52:52,210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: It's vague, Your Honor. 2050 07:52:52,430 --> 07:52:52,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: What? 2051 07:52:54,890 --> 07:52:55,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Similar 2052 07:52:55,410 --> 07:52:55,730 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Rollover amounts. 2053 07:52:56,590 --> 07:52:58,590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If he knows, if he understands the question. 2054 07:52:59,230 --> 07:53:13,750 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, may I request to be confronted with the document so I can answer that because with the numerous transactions that we were processing, I am unable to determine that. Same earlier with the prosecution, I was asking for the documents, Your Honor. 2055 07:53:15,450 --> 07:53:16,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Mark, that's his answer. 2056 07:53:16,890 --> 07:53:17,130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your 2057 07:53:17,130 --> 07:53:21,050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor, we will oblige, Your Honor. Can we ask our assisting counsel to 2058 07:53:21,050 --> 07:53:24,350 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: confront him with one particular document? We 2059 07:53:24,350 --> 07:53:35,030 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: will no longer flash this document on the screen, Your Honor, in keeping with our position. That's confidential and strictly confidential documents are not for the viewing public. 2060 07:53:39,550 --> 07:53:42,250 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: May I ask for the question, Your Honor? 2061 07:53:42,410 --> 07:53:48,250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, didn't a similar scenario of including rollover amounts happen in this case? Nung nag-report kayo? 2062 07:53:48,690 --> 07:53:50,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, based on the 2063 07:53:50,070 --> 07:53:58,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: document, financial intelligence report, I will just have to read what is stated here, Your Honor, if that's okay. 2064 07:53:59,780 --> 07:54:01,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may do so, Antonio Ronald. 2065 07:54:02,810 --> 07:54:07,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay. Because I am unable to make an immediate... 2066 07:54:10,020 --> 07:54:15,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Assessment or analysis on the question because but I can refer on the document, Your Honor. 2067 07:54:17,180 --> 07:54:18,160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Permission to review? 2068 07:54:18,160 --> 07:54:18,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, 2069 07:54:18,480 --> 07:54:18,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you may do so. 2070 07:54:19,280 --> 07:54:38,160 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: So based on page 3 of the Financial Intelligence Report, paragraph 4, it shows, DB showed a possible monthly rollover of time deposit transactions covering the period January to September 2022 as detailed in the table below. So we do have tables indicated here. 2071 07:54:40,460 --> 07:55:06,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Row 1 is date, year, month, date, termination of time deposit and placement of time deposit. So for the date, it's January 1, 2020, January 2024, 2022, and then January, February 2022, February 22, 2022, March. 2072 07:55:08,110 --> 07:55:09,450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's okay, Mr. Whitney. Your 2073 07:55:09,450 --> 07:55:10,950 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, the witness is still answering. 2074 07:55:13,210 --> 07:55:14,810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are you 2075 07:55:15,740 --> 07:55:16,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: satisfied 2076 07:55:16,080 --> 07:55:17,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: with the answer, Attorney Mark? 2077 07:55:17,340 --> 07:55:17,700 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. 2078 07:55:17,880 --> 07:55:19,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That he has already answered your question? 2079 07:55:20,040 --> 07:55:24,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. I'll just ask a follow-up question. So, the term rollover amounts appear in that document? 2080 07:55:25,680 --> 07:55:26,280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your 2081 07:55:26,280 --> 07:55:26,400 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 2082 07:55:26,420 --> 07:55:28,800 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. That's enough. Alright. Now... 2083 07:55:30,600 --> 07:55:35,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Hindi ba kaya umabot ng daang milyon o bilyon kasi aggregated amount ang ginamit niyo? 2084 07:55:35,560 --> 07:55:39,440 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Calls for an opinion, Your Honor. This is an ordinary witness and not an expert witness, Your Honor. 2085 07:55:41,470 --> 07:55:45,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If you know, Attorney Ronell, is that possible? 2086 07:55:46,520 --> 07:56:08,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. We base our transaction only on the report, Your Honor. And in fact, we have notations even in our submissions that whenever there are entries appearing in both, We are actually sort of excluding them so as to avoid double counting, Your Honor. So what we are basing is only the reports, Your Honor. 2087 07:56:09,490 --> 07:56:09,970 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At 2088 07:56:09,970 --> 07:56:16,270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: any rate, the CTRs and STRs do not have aggregate values specifically, right? 2089 07:56:18,010 --> 07:56:21,950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, only in your tabular summary that you provided aggregate amounts, correct? 2090 07:56:21,950 --> 07:56:28,870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I already asked and answered, Your Honor. This has been repeatedly asked and answered earlier, Your Honor, when he was asking about the preparation of the summary. 2091 07:56:29,270 --> 07:56:35,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To abbreviate the proceedings, Attorney Ronell, if it was already asked and you already answered, then kindly repeat your answer. 2092 07:56:39,010 --> 07:56:40,230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Totals were not asked. 2093 07:56:45,770 --> 07:56:55,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yung sa CTRs and CTRs themselves, no aggregate amounts appear therein? It is only in your tabular summaries, correct? 2094 07:57:00,390 --> 07:57:14,940 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're satisfied with that answer. Now, let's go to another transaction. Kapag ginawang beneficiary sa isang manager's check, kasama rin po yun sa CTR, whether i-encash, or i-deposit yung cheque o hindi. Tama? 2095 07:57:15,040 --> 07:57:15,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2096 07:57:15,720 --> 07:57:29,970 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Meaning, just to, just further on the query of the presiding officer kanina, hindi lang puro pumasok sa account. Tama? Pag ginawa kang beneficiary ng manager's check, kung ilang million man yan, kasama pa rin dun sa reports nyo. Tama? 2097 07:57:30,190 --> 07:57:32,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po. May entry po na ganoon sa mga reports. 2098 07:57:32,870 --> 07:57:38,610 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And kapag na-stay yung manager's check, for example, at in-issue ulit, kasama ulit yun sa CTR. Tama? 2099 07:57:39,110 --> 07:57:39,710 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2100 07:57:39,870 --> 07:57:42,430 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Did that scenario happen in this case? 2101 07:57:42,860 --> 07:57:49,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Can you confront me with your honor with the document because I am unable to recall immediately. 2102 07:57:49,520 --> 07:57:53,820 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You wouldn't know that, right? Immediately, you have to go through the records. 2103 07:57:54,140 --> 07:57:56,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: If you want me to answer that, your honor. 2104 07:57:57,000 --> 07:58:12,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, that's okay for now. Moreover, yung total aggregate amount ng transactions ay hindi necessarily pareho sa actual balance ng cash in hand or in bank at any one point, correct? 2105 07:58:13,670 --> 07:58:34,970 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, I am unable to answer questions on the bank, the cash in the banks, Your Honor, because we don't have visibility on that. What we have visibility only are the reports submitted to us, Your Honor. So, I am unable to, my answer there, Your Honor, is I am unable to answer yes or no to that question, 2106 07:58:35,070 --> 07:58:35,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 2107 07:58:35,570 --> 07:58:40,480 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, that's okay. Now... By the way, kung alam niyo lang po, considering you're 2108 07:58:40,480 --> 07:58:46,220 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: a lawyer as well, illegal po ba para sa Vice President or sa kanyang asawa na kumuha ng insurance policy? 2109 07:58:46,280 --> 07:58:48,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, Your Honor. It calls for a legal conclusion. 2110 07:58:49,340 --> 07:58:50,740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: If he knows, Your Honor, he's a lawyer. 2111 07:58:50,960 --> 07:58:56,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And he's already asking this witness, Your Honor, to cast judgment. 2112 07:58:57,420 --> 07:59:03,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Actually, I can answer that, but let the witness answer. Would you know if it is illegal, to your knowledge? 2113 07:59:05,220 --> 07:59:06,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: When you reviewed for the bar, 2114 07:59:06,940 --> 07:59:07,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ranel. 2115 07:59:07,840 --> 07:59:17,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. As far as my insurance law is concerned, Your Honor, no, there are only very limited people who are prohibited 2116 07:59:17,220 --> 07:59:18,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: on that one. 2117 07:59:18,320 --> 07:59:20,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Illegal po ba na mag-invest at kumita sa time deposits? 2118 07:59:21,680 --> 07:59:23,120 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Continuing objection, Your Honor. 2119 07:59:23,420 --> 07:59:27,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. The continuing objection is noted but the court will allow it. Witness may answer. 2120 07:59:27,840 --> 07:59:32,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As far as I recall po... To my knowledge po, no, Your Honor. 2121 07:59:33,080 --> 07:59:37,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Illegal po ba na mag-invest at kumita sa UITF or trust and agency investments? 2122 07:59:38,540 --> 07:59:41,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi po ako familiar dun sa UITF, 2123 07:59:41,160 --> 07:59:41,420 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 2124 07:59:41,800 --> 07:59:44,760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Illegal po ba na mag-invest at kumita sa stocks and bonds? 2125 07:59:45,020 --> 07:59:54,220 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, we are willing to stipulate that making investments or entering into investments by and of itself is not illegal, Your Honor. Just to abbreviate the proceedings. 2126 07:59:54,340 --> 07:59:57,020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I was specific. This pertains to the Vice President. 2127 07:59:57,740 --> 08:00:07,040 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We are willing to stipulate, Your Honor, that the... Vice President. Yes, entering into investments, getting investments by and of itself is not illegal. 2128 08:00:07,400 --> 08:00:09,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are you buying stocks and owning shares? 2129 08:00:11,020 --> 08:00:12,880 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Except that, Your Honor. 2130 08:00:13,040 --> 08:00:17,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, not buying stocks because what Attorney Mark said was asked was buying stocks. Correct me if I'm wrong, Your Honor. 2131 08:00:18,080 --> 08:00:18,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Stocks and 2132 08:00:18,560 --> 08:00:20,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: bonds. Stocks and 2133 08:00:20,080 --> 08:00:20,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: bonds, he said. 2134 08:00:23,840 --> 08:00:26,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Already stipulated, Your Honor. We're willing to move on. 2135 08:00:49,150 --> 08:00:51,550 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Iligal ba na kumita from passive investments? 2136 08:00:52,780 --> 08:00:53,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, you're on. 2137 08:00:53,740 --> 08:01:01,080 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, sa outflow naman po, punta po tayo dun. Hindi naman puro cash withdrawal ang kasama sa aggregate amount, correct? 2138 08:01:01,340 --> 08:01:01,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2139 08:01:02,420 --> 08:01:06,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Kasama rin po yung counterparty or nag-issue ng cheque, tama? 2140 08:01:07,080 --> 08:01:07,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes po. 2141 08:01:07,800 --> 08:01:13,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And wala naman po kayong personal knowledge as to the purpose of the issuance of cheques, correct? 2142 08:01:13,680 --> 08:01:14,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2143 08:01:14,200 --> 08:01:16,820 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Whether ginamit yun for bills payment, for example, tama? 2144 08:01:17,040 --> 08:01:17,560 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2145 08:01:17,600 --> 08:01:19,560 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Kung ginamit siya for payroll, tama? 2146 08:01:19,930 --> 08:01:20,310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2147 08:01:20,370 --> 08:01:22,950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Kung ginamit siya for other legitimate purposes, tama? 2148 08:01:23,150 --> 08:01:24,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, Your Honor. 2149 08:01:24,250 --> 08:01:29,390 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Ang credit card purchases and payments, kasama rin po ba sa aggregate amount? Whether inflow or outflow? 2150 08:01:29,610 --> 08:01:31,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Basta na-report po, yes, Your Honor. 2151 08:01:31,630 --> 08:01:40,130 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, for the record, a transaction that is reported as a covered transaction is not necessarily an illegal transaction, correct? 2152 08:01:40,450 --> 08:01:41,230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, Your 2153 08:01:41,230 --> 08:01:41,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 2154 08:01:41,630 --> 08:01:53,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To illustrate, kunyari may utang kaya 30 months for legal services rendered, Just to throw in a random number, kunyari 8 million, covered transaction yun kasi more than 500,000, tama? 2155 08:01:53,890 --> 08:01:54,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2156 08:01:54,650 --> 08:01:59,110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Pero kahit covered transaction yun, there's nothing illegal about it, correct? 2157 08:01:59,730 --> 08:02:02,870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I cannot make a conclusion on that, Your Honor. But as 2158 08:02:02,870 --> 08:02:03,590 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: long 2159 08:02:03,590 --> 08:02:04,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: as reported po. 2160 08:02:04,530 --> 08:02:06,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Asked and answered, Your Honor. 2161 08:02:13,180 --> 08:02:17,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. May or the opposing counsel to make any objections before answering. 2162 08:02:18,280 --> 08:02:18,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But 2163 08:02:18,720 --> 08:02:22,200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: for the meantime, insofar as this is concerned, Atty. Mae, asked and answered. 2164 08:02:23,740 --> 08:02:27,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, objection is overruled. Kindly continue, Atty. Mark. 2165 08:02:28,070 --> 08:02:37,210 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. So, in other words, kahit gaano kalaki pa yung transaction, if the source of funds is legal, then there's no issue with AMLC, correct? 2166 08:02:38,160 --> 08:02:42,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As long as legal, yes, your honor. And it's reported to us, your honor. 2167 08:02:42,740 --> 08:02:52,220 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. In the same way, a transaction that is reported as a suspicious transaction is likewise not necessarily an illegal transaction, correct? 2168 08:02:53,990 --> 08:02:57,290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Not necessarily, yes, that's correct. 2169 08:02:57,450 --> 08:03:04,590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Mandate lang talaga ng banks and covered persons under the law ang mag-report ng both CTRs and STRs, tama? 2170 08:03:04,770 --> 08:03:05,430 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2171 08:03:05,490 --> 08:03:14,330 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any rate, dun po sa tabular summaries niyo, sir, Iba-iba po ang nature ng transactions na kasama sa aggregate amount. Tama po? 2172 08:03:16,250 --> 08:03:18,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. Lahat na po kasi ito. 2173 08:03:18,110 --> 08:03:35,590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Oo. At kahit umabot sa daang milyon o bilyon ang aggregate total ng mga transactions, hindi niyo po masisiguro, based on personal knowledge or authentic records, na daang milyon o bilyon din ang totoong yaman or true wealth ni Navipi Sara at attorney Manz. Tama? 2174 08:03:36,190 --> 08:03:40,370 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po, hindi masisiguro kundi hindi ko po masasabi. 2175 08:03:40,450 --> 08:03:51,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. Kasi nga, iba ang aggregated total ng transactions sa records nyo. Sa totoong yaman or true wealth ni VP Sara at attorney Manz. Tawa? 2176 08:03:51,620 --> 08:04:06,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Already asked and answered, Your Honor, and this witness has already testified earlier that he will be incompetent to be testifying on these matters because he doesn't have any visibility on what on the records that are kept with the banks or the relevant institutions. 2177 08:04:06,860 --> 08:04:07,960 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can we just get the 2178 08:04:07,960 --> 08:04:08,360 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: ruling, Your 2179 08:04:08,360 --> 08:04:08,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor? 2180 08:04:09,260 --> 08:04:16,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer, but before you answer, Attorney Ronel, Senator-Judge, Lacson is recognized. What is your pleasure, sir? 2181 08:04:16,710 --> 08:04:16,990 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Kasi 2182 08:04:16,990 --> 08:04:17,630 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: alasais na po. 2183 08:04:20,030 --> 08:04:30,330 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Gusto ko lang tumulong. Alam niyo, money laundering act. Kailangan tight sa unlawful activity. Ang tawag doon, predicate crime. Kung wala pong predicate crime, walang illegal. 2184 08:04:31,330 --> 08:04:35,190 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer 2185 08:04:35,190 --> 08:04:44,540 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: paulit-ulit po, yun din naman ang topic. So, I just want to abbreviate. I'm sorry, Atty. Mark. Gusto ko lang tumulong. 2186 08:04:44,540 --> 08:04:44,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you for 2187 08:04:44,680 --> 08:04:55,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: your input, Senator-Judge Lacson. Kindly take it in advisement. Witness may answer. The last question of Atty. Mark. If you can remember the question, Atty. Ronel. 2188 08:04:57,960 --> 08:05:06,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Iba ang aggregated total ng transaction sa records niyo sa totoong yaman or true wealth ni na VP Sara to 30 months. Tama? 2189 08:05:06,420 --> 08:05:06,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your 2190 08:05:06,900 --> 08:05:09,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor, I'm unable to... I have no personal knowledge of 2191 08:05:09,860 --> 08:05:10,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the wealth 2192 08:05:10,760 --> 08:05:18,440 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: of the spouses, Your Honor. So, what I can only testify on is the records that we have, Your Honor. 2193 08:05:18,560 --> 08:05:26,580 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, for the record, it was only Representative Luistro who requested for aggregate amounts, correct? 2194 08:05:26,780 --> 08:05:28,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Already asked and answered, Your Honor. 2195 08:05:28,760 --> 08:05:32,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Asked and answered, Counsel. Yes, I think for the third time already, Counsel. 2196 08:05:32,800 --> 08:05:42,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, my question is this. Will you agree That a presentation of aggregate amounts is subject to political interpretations? 2197 08:05:43,390 --> 08:05:45,210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, it calls for a wit. 2198 08:05:45,490 --> 08:05:46,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If he can answer. If he 2199 08:05:46,870 --> 08:05:47,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: knows. 2200 08:05:47,710 --> 08:05:49,870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer that, Your Honor. 2201 08:05:50,550 --> 08:05:58,830 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, I'll try to paraphrase it to the Filipino. Baka po masagot niyo. Ang mapupulitika po kapag malalaking total ang ipinakita, tama? 2202 08:05:58,990 --> 08:06:04,730 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Already has been answered, Your Honor. Just a translation, Your Honor. The witness already said, Your Honor, that he couldn't. 2203 08:06:05,930 --> 08:06:09,550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi ko po masasagot yun. Wala po akong competence to answer that. 2204 08:06:09,550 --> 08:06:15,910 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Wala kayong competence. The reason why I asked that is because we have a Section 16 in our AMLA law. Are you familiar with that provision? 2205 08:06:16,770 --> 08:06:17,690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Argumentative, Your Honor. 2206 08:06:18,630 --> 08:06:19,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness 2207 08:06:19,110 --> 08:06:22,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is competent to answer. He's the Executive Director of the MRC. 2208 08:06:24,070 --> 08:06:25,990 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: He's implementing this law for all 2209 08:06:25,990 --> 08:06:26,330 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: intents and purposes. 2210 08:06:26,330 --> 08:06:26,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No. 2211 08:06:26,350 --> 08:06:27,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Court already made a ruling. Witness may answer. 2212 08:06:29,900 --> 08:06:32,820 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: To me, or your honor, I have no immediate recall on that. 2213 08:06:32,820 --> 08:06:32,840 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can 2214 08:06:32,840 --> 08:06:34,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you see the screen, Attorney Ronel? 2215 08:06:35,020 --> 08:06:53,840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, I'll read it. Medyo malabo lang po, your honor. Section 16, Attorney Buenaventura, prohibitions against political harassment. This act shall not be used for political prosecution or harassment, or as an instrument to hamper competition in trade and commerce. 2216 08:06:54,080 --> 08:06:54,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, your honor. 2217 08:06:55,140 --> 08:06:55,800 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No question 2218 08:06:55,800 --> 08:06:56,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: yet, 2219 08:06:56,160 --> 08:06:56,500 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: your honor. 2220 08:06:58,220 --> 08:06:59,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He just read the provision, attorney man. 2221 08:06:59,780 --> 08:07:00,280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, yes, your honor. 2222 08:07:02,310 --> 08:07:14,890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Based on this provision, my only question is, do you agree that any data and information from the AMLC must never be used for political prosecution or harassment? 2223 08:07:16,920 --> 08:07:27,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: All I can answer, Your Honor, is what's provided in the law. As you mentioned, the Act or the AMLA shall not be used for political prosecution or 2224 08:07:27,020 --> 08:07:27,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: harassment. 2225 08:07:28,120 --> 08:07:35,180 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, hindi po pwedeng gamitin ang mga datos na hawak ng AMLC para sa pamumuliti ka, 2226 08:07:35,220 --> 08:07:35,340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: tama? 2227 08:07:44,840 --> 08:08:02,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: An answer po because that would call for an interpretation na immediate on my end. I am unable to make that interpretation but all I can answer, Your Honor, is that as provided under the law, the AMLA shall not be used for political prosecution or harassment. 2228 08:08:02,200 --> 08:08:11,220 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, political prosecution and harassment. Now, ito rin po ba yung parehong wisdom if you know only? Is it the same wisdom ng batas kaya may provision on confidentiality? 2229 08:08:13,490 --> 08:08:17,310 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No personal knowledge of your honor. 2230 08:08:17,410 --> 08:08:25,270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, that's okay. Now, the AMLC is a mere repository of reports from banks and other covered persons, correct? 2231 08:08:25,410 --> 08:08:39,250 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, your honor. There was no statement, your honor. And it's also wrong to say that the AMLC is a mere repository, your honor. The AMLC has a host of functions as testified earlier by this witness, Your Honor. Among other functions. It doesn't just act as a repository. Among other 2232 08:08:39,250 --> 08:08:40,150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: functions. 2233 08:08:40,450 --> 08:08:43,390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer subject to that amendment or modification. 2234 08:08:44,110 --> 08:08:44,310 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, 2235 08:08:44,330 --> 08:08:46,690 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. Among other functions. Repository. 2236 08:08:49,280 --> 08:08:57,080 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Meaning the confidential data and information actually come from banks and other covered persons. Correct? 2237 08:08:58,050 --> 08:09:02,930 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The CTRs and STRs, Your Honor, they come from banks and other covered persons, Your Honor. 2238 08:09:07,570 --> 08:09:09,190 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, can we just 2239 08:09:09,190 --> 08:09:12,690 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: get guidance as to up to what time I can conduct my cross? 2240 08:09:13,290 --> 08:09:15,770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We wish to finish the witness, counsel. 2241 08:09:17,660 --> 08:09:20,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Since he's been here the whole day, he's the longest witness we've had. 2242 08:09:21,860 --> 08:09:32,720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But, Your Honor, I'm just about halfway, Your Honor. In considering your honor, I think it's been like one hour pa lang naman yung cross call. 2243 08:09:32,920 --> 08:09:33,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ikaw 2244 08:09:33,300 --> 08:09:36,340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: naman, kung kaya lang dumating yung audience mo dyan sa likod, di mo patitigil. 2245 08:09:37,240 --> 08:09:37,720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, 2246 08:09:38,120 --> 08:09:38,280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'll continue. 2247 08:09:38,340 --> 08:09:41,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Continue until we can continue, counsel. We'll try again. 2248 08:09:43,590 --> 08:09:59,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As much as we can, let's try to finish with the witness since he's our witness that we had for the whole day. So let's try to do it. As much as we can within the day, together with the interjections of Senator-Judges that is. So please continue. I'm 2249 08:09:59,210 --> 08:09:59,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: not 2250 08:09:59,270 --> 08:10:01,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: shortening your cross, Atty. Mark. 2251 08:10:01,550 --> 08:10:54,450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you. Let me direct your attention to Section 8A of the AMLA. Section 8A, Information Security and Confidentiality, states that the AMLC and its Secretariat shall securely protect information received or possessed and shall not reveal in any manner any information known to them by reason of their office. This prohibition shall apply even after their separation from the AMLC. So based on this provision, the AMLC and its secretariat are required to securely protect confidential information received or possessed by them and prohibits the disclosure of confidential information from the banks and other covered persons. 2252 08:10:54,590 --> 08:10:54,830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, Your Honor. 2253 08:10:54,830 --> 08:10:55,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: That 2254 08:10:55,190 --> 08:11:06,830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: is misleading, Your Honor, because the defense counsel truncated a relevant portion of that law. There's a second paragraph to that law, Your Honor, which was omitted in the reading of the law and in the presentation. 2255 08:11:07,090 --> 08:11:07,530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'm 2256 08:11:07,530 --> 08:11:10,550 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just asking about this portion of the law, Your Honor, if the witness can answer. 2257 08:11:11,110 --> 08:11:25,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The witness is well-versed with this provision of the law, I believe. Court takes judicial notice as well of its ruling which cited the second paragraph of 8a. Witness may answer. Attorney Ronel, kindly answer the question of the counsel. 2258 08:11:26,950 --> 08:11:30,730 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sir, Your Honor, may I request for the... 2259 08:11:30,730 --> 08:11:31,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly repeat 2260 08:11:31,250 --> 08:11:31,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the 2261 08:11:31,450 --> 08:11:32,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: question, Attorney Mark. 2262 08:11:32,950 --> 08:11:46,280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So it is the AMLC and the Secretariat. are required to securely protect confidential information received or possessed by them and prohibits a disclosure of confidential information from the banks and other covered persons. 2263 08:11:46,720 --> 08:11:54,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: The law is the law, Your Honor. This honorable court can even take judicial cognizance of what the law provides without even asking this witness, Your Honor. 2264 08:11:54,440 --> 08:11:54,560 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just 2265 08:11:54,560 --> 08:11:55,600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: saying the predicate, Your Honor. 2266 08:11:55,780 --> 08:11:58,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Use it in your own words, Attorney Ronel. Do you agree? 2267 08:11:58,980 --> 08:12:08,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I can only answer, Your Honor, what is provided in the law, Your Honor. So that was what was read earlier. I cannot see clearly what's in the screen, your honor. 2268 08:12:09,080 --> 08:12:14,860 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, and this prohibition shall apply even after wala na po kayo sa AMLC, tama? 2269 08:12:15,840 --> 08:12:16,860 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Let's correct your honor. 2270 08:12:17,340 --> 08:12:29,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, bilang Executive Director po Atty. Buenaventura ng AMLC, kayo po ay kabilang sa pinagbabawalan na mag-reveal ng anumang impormasyon sa anumang paraan sa ilalim ng provision na ito, tama? 2271 08:12:29,400 --> 08:12:29,680 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ask and 2272 08:12:29,680 --> 08:12:30,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: answered, your honor. 2273 08:12:30,780 --> 08:12:35,690 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, I'm asking about the specific... Specific position, Your Honor, that he holds? 2274 08:12:36,470 --> 08:12:38,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, witness may answer if he knows. 2275 08:12:39,150 --> 08:12:43,150 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Subject to the second paragraph of Section 8A, Your Honor. 2276 08:12:43,310 --> 08:12:51,760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. Now, dun sa 8A ba, was there an exception explicitly provided under that section? 2277 08:12:52,520 --> 08:12:54,160 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, this witness is being asked— 2278 08:12:54,160 --> 08:12:54,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In 2279 08:12:54,180 --> 08:12:56,380 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the second paragraph, there is, Your Honor, as far as I 2280 08:12:56,380 --> 08:12:56,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: recall, Your 2281 08:12:56,900 --> 08:12:57,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. 2282 08:12:57,810 --> 08:13:07,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Already answered, but again, Atty. Ronell, kindly wait for counsel for the panel of prosecutors. Adequate time to make an objection before answering. 2283 08:13:07,710 --> 08:13:08,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But 2284 08:13:08,350 --> 08:13:10,590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: already answered, Atty. May. Alright, 2285 08:13:10,710 --> 08:13:19,790 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just a more pointed question. Under Section 8A, was impeachment proceedings explicitly provided as an exception? 2286 08:13:21,520 --> 08:13:26,460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: There's no mention about the word impeachment in section, as far as I recall. 2287 08:13:26,540 --> 08:13:27,920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's okay. Now, 2288 08:13:28,000 --> 08:13:29,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: section 8A, 2289 08:13:30,720 --> 08:13:37,740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: alright, I'll move on. Kasama ba sa confidential information ang CTRs at STRs? 2290 08:13:38,730 --> 08:13:40,170 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: They are information 2291 08:13:40,170 --> 08:13:48,490 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: received by the AMLC and therefore, I can say that they are covered under that provision, under the provision on 2292 08:13:50,350 --> 08:13:52,950 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That we need to securely protect 2293 08:13:52,950 --> 08:13:54,010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: that information, Your Honor. 2294 08:13:54,330 --> 08:14:00,930 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: How about yung mga reports that process the CTRs and STRs? Confidential din po ba? 2295 08:14:01,250 --> 08:14:08,030 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I would say they are included as part of our documents that should be safeguarded by the AMLC, Your Honor. 2296 08:14:08,250 --> 08:14:14,350 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: After all, they contain sensitive personal information and records of financial history, correct? 2297 08:14:16,680 --> 08:14:25,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: They contain only the records as reported to us, the covered transaction reports, the details, Your Honor, on the transaction. 2298 08:14:26,500 --> 08:14:37,600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, can you confirm that yung mga documents from your office may nakalagay na confidential or strictly confidential or may kolatilya na you are not waiving confidentiality, correct? 2299 08:14:38,000 --> 08:14:38,520 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: At 2300 08:14:38,520 --> 08:14:52,580 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: this point, Your Honor, we... Object to these lines of questioning, Your Honor. This matter has already been ruled upon by this honorable court. This honorable court has already ruled against or thumbed down their claim of confidentiality. 2301 08:14:52,760 --> 08:14:55,460 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Whenever waived our right to cross-examine, Your Honor. 2302 08:14:55,880 --> 08:15:11,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It may be the proper subject matter, of course, Attorney Mae, notwithstanding the court's ruling. They are not appealing, nor are they seeking reconsideration of the court's ruling. And the witness is called upon to testify on behalf of the MLC and he is the Executive Director. If he knows, 2303 08:15:11,700 --> 08:15:14,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: he can always answer. So I would have to overrule the objection with this answer. 2304 08:15:16,540 --> 08:15:18,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry po, pwede pong paulit. 2305 08:15:18,000 --> 08:15:28,780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So yung mga documents emanating from your office, Atty. Buenaventura, may nakalagay na confidential or strictly confidential or may kulatilya kayo na you are not waiving confidentiality, correct? 2306 08:15:29,040 --> 08:15:29,240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Not 2307 08:15:29,240 --> 08:15:29,460 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: all, 2308 08:15:29,540 --> 08:15:32,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. So may mga reports and records, 2309 08:15:32,320 --> 08:15:34,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: mga letters po kami, hindi diba po, wala pong ganong nakalagay. 2310 08:15:34,760 --> 08:15:34,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But 2311 08:15:34,900 --> 08:15:38,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: insofar as the documents that you submitted in relation to this case? 2312 08:15:39,680 --> 08:15:44,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung CTR and STR po, they are extracts from our database, wala pong ganong nakalagay. 2313 08:15:45,800 --> 08:15:46,800 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You just 2314 08:15:46,800 --> 08:15:50,980 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: admitted naman a while ago that they're confidential, correct? 2315 08:15:52,620 --> 08:15:53,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: They are information 2316 08:15:53,480 --> 08:15:54,200 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: received by 2317 08:15:54,200 --> 08:15:54,360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: us. 2318 08:15:54,580 --> 08:15:55,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: How 2319 08:15:55,100 --> 08:15:59,020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: about what you're referring to other documents? Yung mga financial reports, meron nakalagay 2320 08:15:59,020 --> 08:16:03,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: yun. Yung iba po. If you can confront me with that, I'll be able to intelligently answer you. 2321 08:16:03,900 --> 08:16:15,810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To be more precise, part of your general principles of information exchange is that the end user must first verify the information provided. Correct? 2322 08:16:16,310 --> 08:16:18,550 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, can you provide 2323 08:16:18,550 --> 08:16:25,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: me with the document where it is stated so I can intelligently confirm it? 2324 08:16:25,650 --> 08:16:25,890 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will 2325 08:16:25,890 --> 08:16:33,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: oblige, Your Honor. In particular, we are pertaining to confidential financial intelligence report. 2326 08:16:44,480 --> 08:16:48,080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. May I know what is the question regarding this document, Your Honor? 2327 08:16:48,340 --> 08:16:56,490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, part of your general principles of information exchange is that the end user Must first verify the information provided, correct? 2328 08:16:56,950 --> 08:16:59,510 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. May I read what is stated in 2329 08:16:59,510 --> 08:16:59,670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: the 2330 08:16:59,670 --> 08:17:30,230 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: record, Your Honor? At least in the portion of that one. End user is advised to 1. Verify the information provided. 2. Protect the confidentiality of the information. 3. Use the information for intelligence purpose only. 4. Not use the information as evidence in formal proceedings. And 5. Refrain from reproducing, copying, extracting, printing, or distributing this material to any third party without the written consent of the Anti-Money Laundering Council, Your Honor. That is what is stated here, Your Honor. 2331 08:17:34,020 --> 08:17:39,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, yung hearing before the House Committee on Justice, do you consider that as a formal proceedings? 2332 08:17:41,890 --> 08:17:42,850 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: It is a... 2333 08:17:44,620 --> 08:17:46,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Proceeding by the pursuant 2334 08:17:46,940 --> 08:17:49,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: to the Constitution. Yes, Your Honor, I would say. 2335 08:17:49,180 --> 08:17:52,220 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And how about our hearing today? Do you consider that as formal proceedings? 2336 08:17:52,860 --> 08:17:54,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I would say, yes, Your Honor. 2337 08:17:54,440 --> 08:18:01,460 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And yet, in that document that you're reading, it says here, end user must not use information as evidence in formal proceedings. 2338 08:18:01,940 --> 08:18:02,340 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Argumentative. 2339 08:18:03,100 --> 08:18:05,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'm just asking what the document states, Your Honor. 2340 08:18:06,040 --> 08:18:10,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, it is argumentative, counsel, because it is what it is. It is what the law states. 2341 08:18:12,080 --> 08:18:13,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Move to your next point, counsel. 2342 08:18:13,940 --> 08:18:14,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'll 2343 08:18:14,320 --> 08:18:30,920 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: move on, your honor. Now, my next question is this. Wasn't it the case that confidential data and information on VP Sara and attorney Manz were disclosed in the public hearing on April 22, 2026 before the House Committee on Justice? 2344 08:18:30,920 --> 08:18:31,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Irrelevant, your honor. 2345 08:18:33,640 --> 08:18:39,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'll allow it. But you're in a short leash, counsel, on this matter. Kindly answer, attorney Manz. 2346 08:18:42,220 --> 08:18:44,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm not in the position to make the 2347 08:18:44,940 --> 08:18:45,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: judgment, Your Honor. 2348 08:18:45,880 --> 08:18:54,280 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. Now, and because that was a public hearing, the end user of the confidential data and information was the general public. Do you agree? 2349 08:18:54,740 --> 08:18:55,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Argumentative 2350 08:18:55,180 --> 08:18:55,600 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: and relevant. 2351 08:18:55,600 --> 08:18:57,920 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm not in the position to answer that, Your Honor. 2352 08:18:58,840 --> 08:19:02,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witnesses answered, and indeed he is not in a position to answer that question. 2353 08:19:02,540 --> 08:19:09,760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just to belabor the point, Your Honor, how about the media who covered that proceedings? They're also part of the end users, correct? 2354 08:19:10,090 --> 08:19:11,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am not in the position to answer that. 2355 08:19:11,910 --> 08:19:17,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It's okay. How about the members of the House Committee on Justice and their staff? Were they end-users as well? 2356 08:19:19,560 --> 08:19:20,980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I would say that 2357 08:19:20,980 --> 08:19:26,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: they are because we only complied with the subpoena issued by the House Committee on Justice, 2358 08:19:26,980 --> 08:19:27,220 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 2359 08:19:27,520 --> 08:19:38,490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, were all the end-users that I referred to given a written consent by the AMLC or the three council members? 2360 08:19:39,110 --> 08:19:48,830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, that presupposes that these people should seek consent or approval from the AMLC before even receiving any data. 2361 08:19:49,070 --> 08:20:04,690 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's what he read, Your Honor, in paragraph number 5, and I'll repeat. Refrain from reproducing, copying, extracting, printing, or distributing this material to any third party without the written consent of the Anti-Money Laundering Council. So there's basis to my question, Your Honor. 2362 08:20:06,890 --> 08:20:10,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Well informed enough to answer. Please, Atty. Ranel. 2363 08:20:10,110 --> 08:20:10,570 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, 2364 08:20:10,730 --> 08:20:13,070 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: may I be confronted again with the document, Your Honor? 2365 08:20:17,830 --> 08:20:43,960 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, let me clarify again what is stated here. End user is, at least the last, the second sentence starts with, end user is advised to, and then it enumerated the activities that the end user is advised to do, Your Honor. So, Regarding the question, I am unable to answer that one, Your Honor. 2366 08:20:44,200 --> 08:20:48,660 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So what you're saying, Attorney Ranel, is it's the lookout of the entity that requested? 2367 08:20:49,690 --> 08:21:07,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I would say yes, Your Honor, because what I can say, Your Honor, is the end user is advised to comply with all the following, Your Honor, as stated in the documents. I am unable to add what is provided here in the documents, 2368 08:21:07,740 --> 08:21:07,760 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 2369 08:21:07,760 --> 08:21:09,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is not provided in the law? 2370 08:21:09,280 --> 08:21:09,760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. 2371 08:21:09,960 --> 08:21:10,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 2372 08:21:10,460 --> 08:21:22,120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But under, one last point on this, but in point number 5 or item number 5, the provision uses the term must, correct? 2373 08:21:22,660 --> 08:21:23,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Number 5? 2374 08:21:23,880 --> 08:21:26,540 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes. End user must refrain. 2375 08:21:26,980 --> 08:21:32,480 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. Refrain lang. Refrain from reproducing is advised to refrain. 2376 08:21:32,780 --> 08:21:33,800 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. So 2377 08:21:33,800 --> 08:21:38,080 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: it is your position that it is just merely suggestive in nature? 2378 08:21:38,520 --> 08:21:39,500 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Argumentative, Your Honor. 2379 08:21:40,100 --> 08:21:41,040 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: If he knows, Your Honor. 2380 08:21:42,000 --> 08:21:46,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To begin with, it does not... The Presiding Officer would like to confirm that... 2381 08:21:46,540 --> 08:21:50,900 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. I refrained my... I mean, I reformed my question. 2382 08:21:51,560 --> 08:21:54,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, so witness may answer if he knows again. 2383 08:21:55,380 --> 08:21:58,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry, may I get the question again, Your Honor? 2384 08:21:58,080 --> 08:22:07,490 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, because you kept on pertaining to the first part which is advice, are you suggesting that this is mere... this is not mandatory? 2385 08:22:08,140 --> 08:22:08,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No, Your Honor. 2386 08:22:08,800 --> 08:22:15,700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: What I'm saying is I cannot add anything that is not stated in the document that I'm being confronted, 2387 08:22:16,160 --> 08:22:16,660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. 2388 08:22:16,860 --> 08:22:27,600 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're okay with that answer. Now, let me move on. Meron pong penal provision on breach of information, security, and confidentiality yung AMLA, correct? 2389 08:22:28,260 --> 08:22:30,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: As far as I recall, meron po. 2390 08:22:30,120 --> 08:22:31,400 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Naalala mo yung section, Sir? 2391 08:22:31,760 --> 08:22:32,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Hindi na po, Your Honor. 2392 08:22:32,680 --> 08:23:52,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Let me direct your attention to section 14 of the AMLA. And I'll read it for the record. Paragraph D. Breach of information security and confidentiality. The punishment of imprisonment ranging from 3 to 8 years and a fine of not less than 500,000 Philippine pesos but not more than 1 million Philippine pesos shall be imposed on a person convicted for a violation under 9C or Section 8A on information security and confidentiality of this Act. If the offender is a public official or employee, he shall, in addition to the penalties prescribed herein, suffer the penalty of perpetual or temporary absolute disqualification from public office, as the case may be. In the case of a breach of confidentiality that is published or reported by media, The responsible reporter, writer, president, publisher, manager, and editor-in-chief shall be liable under this act. My question is this. At the time that you disclosed the confidential information on VP Sara and attorney Manz, were you aware of this provision? 2393 08:23:52,940 --> 08:23:54,580 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am aware of this provision. 2394 08:23:54,640 --> 08:23:57,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Tuloy po natin sa paragraph F, for example. 2395 08:23:59,060 --> 08:25:13,770 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Imposition of administrative sanctions. The imposition of the administrative sanctions shall be without prejudice to the filing of criminal charges against the persons responsible for the violation. After due notice and hearing, the AMLC shall at its discretion impose sanctions including monetary penalties, warning or reprimand upon any covered person, its directors, officers, employees, or any other person for the violation of this Act. It's implementing rules and regulations or for failure or refusal to comply with AMLC orders, resolutions and other issuances. Such monetary penalty shall be in amounts as may be determined by the AMLC to be appropriate, which shall not be more than 500,000 Philippine Pesos per violation. The AMLC may promulgate rules on fines and penalties taking into consideration The attendant circumstances, such as the nature and gravity of the violation or irregularity. Now, based on this provision, Atty. Buenaventura, penalties involve both administrative and criminal sanctions, correct? 2396 08:25:14,050 --> 08:25:20,130 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Irrelevant, Your Honor, and already bordering on badgering the witness, albeit the threat is veiled, Your Honor. 2397 08:25:22,150 --> 08:25:26,730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He's not yet there, counsel. I don't believe he's there. Witness 2398 08:25:26,730 --> 08:25:27,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may answer. 2399 08:25:28,530 --> 08:25:29,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: We 2400 08:25:29,050 --> 08:25:29,670 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: submit, Your Honor. 2401 08:25:29,980 --> 08:25:37,040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. May, you seem to be crouching. You may sit down for the meantime. Yes, Atty. Ronel. 2402 08:25:39,240 --> 08:25:42,340 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Penalties involve administrative and criminal sanctions, correct? 2403 08:25:44,980 --> 08:25:45,620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, 2404 08:25:48,580 --> 08:26:47,880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: finally, last paragraph of Section 9C provides, when reporting covered or suspicious transactions to the AMLC, covered persons and their officers and employees are prohibited from communicating directly or indirectly in any manner or by any means to any person or entity, the media, the fact that a covered or suspicious transaction has been reported or is about to be reported, the contents of the report, or any other information in relation thereto. Neither may such reporting be published or aired in any manner or forms by the mass media, electronic mail or other similar devices. In case of violation thereof, the concerned officer and employee of the covered person and media shall be held criminally liable. So under this provision, Atty. Buenaventura, pati yung media pwedeng makasuhan, correct? 2405 08:26:57,080 --> 08:26:59,480 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Continuing objection, Your Honor, on the ground of irrelevance. 2406 08:26:59,760 --> 08:27:04,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted, the continuing objection of the counsel for the panel of prosecutors is duly noted. 2407 08:27:05,840 --> 08:27:09,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry, Your Honor, I was at loss with the... 2408 08:27:09,600 --> 08:27:10,620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Simple lang po yung tanong ko. 2409 08:27:10,660 --> 08:27:11,140 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Sorry, 2410 08:27:11,180 --> 08:27:11,880 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: anong section po? 2411 08:27:12,060 --> 08:27:18,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: 9C po. Simple lang po yung tanong ko. Ang tanong ko lang po, under that provision, pati media po pwedeng makasuhan, tama? 2412 08:27:18,560 --> 08:27:24,360 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: In the appropriate cases. Based on the law, it appears it's stated there, Your Honor. 2413 08:27:24,800 --> 08:27:34,270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, as regards the penalties naman po dun sa mga binasa nating provision for breach of confidentiality, kasama po sa parusa yung imprisonment, correct? 2414 08:27:35,090 --> 08:27:35,530 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yung 2415 08:27:35,530 --> 08:27:36,450 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: base dun sa 2416 08:27:36,450 --> 08:27:38,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: binanggit niyo po kanina, yes, sir. 2417 08:27:38,930 --> 08:27:39,110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: May 2418 08:27:39,110 --> 08:27:39,470 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: kasama 2419 08:27:39,470 --> 08:27:40,430 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: rin pong fine, tama. 2420 08:27:43,360 --> 08:27:43,940 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: More 2421 08:27:43,940 --> 08:27:51,000 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: importantly, kasama po yung perpetual or temporary absolute disqualification from public office. Now, 2422 08:27:52,760 --> 08:28:00,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: by the way, on top of your head, sino po yung mga public officials na present dun sa House Committee on Justice on April 22, 2026? 2423 08:28:24,330 --> 08:28:25,250 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: The 2424 08:28:25,250 --> 08:28:30,850 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: CTRs and STRs are nevertheless useful in investigations by the AMLC, correct? 2425 08:28:31,380 --> 08:28:32,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 2426 08:28:32,520 --> 08:29:01,270 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, Section 7-1 of the AMLA provides, and I quote again, to investigate suspicious transactions and covered transactions deemed suspicious after determination by AMLC money laundering activities and other violations of this Act. So based on these provisions po, it is the mandate of the AMLC to investigate covered and suspicious transactions if related to money laundering activities and other violations of AMLA. Tama po? 2427 08:29:01,410 --> 08:29:01,770 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2428 08:29:02,000 --> 08:29:50,720 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Let me direct your attention to paragraphs 3, 4, and 6 of the same section. Paragraph 3. To institute civil forfeiture proceedings and all other remedial proceedings through the Office of the Solicitor General, to cause the filing of complaints with the Department of Justice or the Ombudsman for the prosecution of money laundering offenses, and yung sa 6 po, to apply before the Court of Appeals ex parte the freezing of any monetary instrument or property alleged to be laundered, proceeds from, or instrumentalities used or intended for use in any unlawful activity as defined in Section 3i hereof. My question is this. Part of the AMLC mandate is also to institute civil forfeiture proceedings. Tama po. 2429 08:29:50,760 --> 08:29:53,680 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po as stated as what you've just mentioned, Your Honor. 2430 08:29:53,820 --> 08:29:56,580 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To file complaints with the DOJ or Ombudsman. Tama po. 2431 08:29:57,100 --> 08:29:59,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po as you've just stated, Your Honor. 2432 08:29:59,200 --> 08:30:02,260 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To apply for for freeze orders with the Court of Appeals. Tama? 2433 08:30:02,360 --> 08:30:04,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po, as you stated, Your Honor. 2434 08:30:04,320 --> 08:30:14,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, the CTRs and STRs of VP Sara in the 30 months that you examined and processed were from 2005, 2006 to 2025, correct? 2435 08:30:16,310 --> 08:30:17,810 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yung dito na lang, 2007? 2436 08:30:18,390 --> 08:30:19,090 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 2007, yes. 2437 08:30:19,270 --> 08:30:20,570 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sa House 2006 to 2005? 2438 08:30:20,590 --> 08:30:21,050 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 2439 08:30:21,170 --> 08:30:35,620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: My question is very simple. Did the AMLC file any complaint with the DOJ or Ombudsman for money laundering offenses against VP Sara or attorney mans in 2006, if you know. 2440 08:30:38,000 --> 08:30:39,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: 2006, Your Honor. Based 2441 08:30:39,640 --> 08:30:43,020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: on your records, I know you were not yet there, but based on your records, can you... 2442 08:30:43,020 --> 08:30:44,600 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer, Your 2443 08:30:44,600 --> 08:30:45,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor, anything 2444 08:30:45,640 --> 08:30:49,020 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: that goes beyond what was subject of the subpoena, Your Honor. 2445 08:30:49,200 --> 08:30:55,830 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Meron bang civil... forfeiture proceedings laban sa mag-asawa noong 2006. You can just answer no if you don't know. 2446 08:30:55,830 --> 08:30:57,010 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer, Your 2447 08:30:57,010 --> 08:30:59,630 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Honor. It's not part of what was subject of the subpoena. 2448 08:30:59,670 --> 08:31:03,610 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Meron bang application for freeze orders laban sa mag-asawa noong 2006? 2449 08:31:04,290 --> 08:31:07,350 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer, Your Honor, because it was 2450 08:31:07,350 --> 08:31:09,290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: outside the subject of the subpoena. 2451 08:31:09,430 --> 08:31:17,120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Meron bang mga ganitong kaso na nabanggit ko laban kay... VP, Sara, Atty. Masun, 2007 naman po. 2452 08:31:17,260 --> 08:31:24,460 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, the witness has already testified that he cannot testify on matters outside of the subpoena period, Your Honor. 2453 08:31:25,630 --> 08:31:29,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He was not yet outside the subpoena period. Yes, what was your question, Atty. Mark? 2454 08:31:30,570 --> 08:31:31,010 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I 2455 08:31:31,010 --> 08:31:45,100 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: asked about the functions or mandates of the AMLC and, Your Honor, part of those were instituting civil... forfeiture proceedings. 2456 08:31:45,360 --> 08:31:45,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I 2457 08:31:45,740 --> 08:31:51,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: remember that. That's under the law. If you know, attorney... Noong 2007. 2458 08:31:51,700 --> 08:31:51,840 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Very 2459 08:31:51,840 --> 08:31:52,180 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: specific. 2460 08:31:52,340 --> 08:31:54,080 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Ah, in 2007. I am unable 2461 08:31:54,080 --> 08:31:54,780 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: to answer 2462 08:31:54,780 --> 08:31:55,000 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: that, 2463 08:31:55,000 --> 08:31:56,700 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor. It's the subject of the... 2464 08:31:56,700 --> 08:31:57,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's the 2465 08:31:57,020 --> 08:31:58,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: witness's answer, counsel. 2466 08:31:58,360 --> 08:32:00,840 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: 2008? 2009? 2467 08:32:00,840 --> 08:32:03,320 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer that, Your Honor. I am unable to answer that, Your Honor. 2468 08:32:03,880 --> 08:32:07,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With your indulgence, Attorney Mark, Senator-Judge Rafi. 2469 08:32:09,010 --> 08:32:59,080 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mr. Presiding Officer, kanina... Na-rule mo na allowed dito sa impeachment court yung pag-divulge ng mga information dito sa impeachment court itong AMLA records. Now I can see itong defense paulit-ulit na binabadger na lang niya itong witness. Kanina pa ito ng alas 10 na umaga at nakikita ko pagod na siya. And I don't see any reason bakit paulit-ulit na lang itong defense na tinatakot pa, pati media tinatakot. Meron pang mga 500,000. I mean, come on. Alam naman natin na kanina ng presiding officer na allowed dito sa impeachment court yung pag-divulge ng mga information coming from AMLA. 2470 08:33:00,900 --> 08:33:08,000 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Tuloy si Lito Lapid takot na magsalita. Balak pa naman ni Lito Lapid magtanong. Tinakot niya si Lito Lapid. Come on. 2471 08:33:09,920 --> 08:33:21,590 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kanina pa tayo. Pagod na tayong lahat, especially the witness. And I can see yung sa prosecutor, kanina pa masakit ng likod niya. Give us a break, okay? Thank you. Walang takutan. 2472 08:33:23,610 --> 08:33:53,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly take the statements of Senator-Judge Tulfo in advisement. I think the Senator-Judges and the parties involved get the point. At the outset, the Chair already even made it clear to the witness himself if he's aware. of the possible legal liabilities he may face given his testimony earlier this morning. I think we get the message, counsel. You can perhaps move to another point of yours. 2473 08:33:53,630 --> 08:34:09,660 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, actually this is already another point. I'm talking about specific factual questions, Your Honor, pertaining to any complaints for money laundering that were filed in previous years based on the records 2474 08:34:11,350 --> 08:34:12,450 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And your Honor? 2475 08:34:13,410 --> 08:34:14,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You 2476 08:34:14,030 --> 08:34:15,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: can also aggregate it, counsel. 2477 08:34:16,230 --> 08:34:16,630 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. 2478 08:34:18,200 --> 08:34:40,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If he is aware of any prior to his appointment earlier this year and after his appointment earlier this year. To abbreviate, in the interest of abbreviating the proceedings. Atty. Ronel, are you aware of any situation that Atty. Mark is mentioning prior to your appointment at the AMLC as Executive Director? 2479 08:34:40,600 --> 08:34:42,240 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer, Your Honor. 2480 08:34:42,440 --> 08:34:42,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How 2481 08:34:42,800 --> 08:34:44,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: about after your appointment? 2482 08:34:44,580 --> 08:34:46,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer as well, Your Honor. 2483 08:34:47,240 --> 08:34:50,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Why is that? Because nothing to your 2484 08:34:50,400 --> 08:34:50,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: knowledge 2485 08:34:50,760 --> 08:34:51,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: has been done. 2486 08:34:51,940 --> 08:35:33,660 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Your Honor, actions taken by, okay, number one, Your Honor, the subpoena was to testify on the records, Your Honor, so If these are not included in the records, I'm unable to provide any information on that one. Second, Your Honor, there are certain rules, for example, in the If we file, for example, I'm not saying that we did, but just saying that under, for example, bank inquiry rules of the Court of Appeals, we cannot disclose if there is a case filed before that. Otherwise, that would amount to, it would constitute contempt of court, Your Honor. So, there are certain impediments, legal impediments for me to make any disclosure on that matter, Your Honor. 2487 08:35:33,800 --> 08:35:36,200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, that's his answer, Attorney Mark. Your witness. 2488 08:35:36,500 --> 08:35:50,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. So bago po kayo ipatawag dun sa House Committee on Justice hearing noong April 22, may finial ba ang AMLC in particular na Caso on Money Laundering Offense kina VP Sara at Atty. Mance? 2489 08:35:50,160 --> 08:35:51,540 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer that, Your Honor. 2490 08:35:51,700 --> 08:36:06,050 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any rate, nothing prevents the AMLC from investigating VP Sara and Atty. Mance motu proprio or upon receipt of request by lawful enforcement agencies if the circumstances so warrant, correct? 2491 08:36:08,510 --> 08:36:09,290 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 2492 08:36:09,370 --> 08:36:09,750 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That is part 2493 08:36:09,750 --> 08:36:09,930 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: of 2494 08:36:09,930 --> 08:36:10,710 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: their mandate, correct? 2495 08:36:10,950 --> 08:36:16,890 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, we can also do that proactively, Your Honor. Even without the request of relevant law enforcement agencies, Your Honor. 2496 08:36:17,050 --> 08:36:32,530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, you mentioned you had investigation reports, pero wala pong any final findings on money laundering offense as committed by VP Sara and attorney Mance, tama po? If you're aware. 2497 08:36:33,070 --> 08:36:38,870 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I'm unable to answer anything that was outside the reports that we submitted, Your Honor. 2498 08:36:39,390 --> 08:36:47,950 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, but you mentioned a while ago that you caused the preparation or your team caused that preparation of those reports, tama po ba? 2499 08:36:49,290 --> 08:36:57,670 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Those, as mentioned earlier, these are reports already existing when I joined the AMLC, Your Honor. So, it was subject of the subpoena, Your Honor. 2500 08:37:11,960 --> 08:37:12,780 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any 2501 08:37:12,780 --> 08:37:13,620 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: rate, 2502 08:37:13,760 --> 08:37:20,500 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: kung wala nga pong final determination, masasabi niyo po ba na premature pa yung any accusation of amassing unexplained wealth? 2503 08:37:21,400 --> 08:37:22,740 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Or at 2504 08:37:22,740 --> 08:37:23,760 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: least money laundering? 2505 08:37:24,680 --> 08:37:27,100 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I am unable to answer that, Your Honor. 2506 08:37:27,320 --> 08:37:35,420 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. Because according to the mandate, cases can be filed with the DOJ or Ombudsman if so warranted, correct? 2507 08:37:35,920 --> 08:37:40,800 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Under the law, it mentioned the filing of cases, Your Honor. 2508 08:37:40,940 --> 08:37:45,680 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any rate, cases for money laundering must still be tried and decided by the courts, correct? 2509 08:37:45,960 --> 08:37:46,900 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: That is correct, Your Honor. 2510 08:37:47,140 --> 08:37:52,120 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And accusations of money laundering must still be proven by competent evidence in court, correct? 2511 08:37:52,560 --> 08:37:53,040 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Tama po. 2512 08:37:53,100 --> 08:38:10,520 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Very well. Let's talk about the nature of the transactions. Do you have personal knowledge that any of the transactions in the CTRs or STRs of VP Sara in attorney months are related to unlawful activities as defined by AMLA? 2513 08:38:10,680 --> 08:38:16,720 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Personal knowledge? No, Your Honor. I only base my testimony on the records earlier, Your Honor. 2514 08:38:17,260 --> 08:38:26,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Are those conclusive findings already if you have records? At these are... That they are related to unlawful activities? 2515 08:38:27,060 --> 08:38:38,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: The basis of the report, at least for covered transaction, is that they are required by law to report that for suspicious transaction, your honor, the basis is suspicion or suspicious circumstance, your honor. 2516 08:38:39,080 --> 08:38:45,320 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, but at any rate, you already admitted that you don't have any personal knowledge that they are related to unlawful activities, tama? 2517 08:38:46,540 --> 08:38:48,980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Personal knowledge. No personal knowledge, Your Honor. 2518 08:38:49,040 --> 08:38:52,880 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We have personal knowledge if they are related to kidnap for ransom, for example. 2519 08:38:53,180 --> 08:38:53,520 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: No 2520 08:38:53,520 --> 08:38:54,260 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: personal knowledge. 2521 08:38:54,260 --> 08:38:54,300 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your 2522 08:38:54,300 --> 08:39:00,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, the witness already answered that he has no personal knowledge whether... 2523 08:39:01,630 --> 08:39:03,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You've established your point, counsel. 2524 08:39:05,870 --> 08:39:12,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The witness clearly does not have personal knowledge with respect to the reasons why a bank... 2525 08:39:15,430 --> 08:39:27,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: classified a transaction as suspicious given that suspicion is subjective to the covered entity making such a report. We hear you and we get the point. 2526 08:39:27,590 --> 08:39:42,530 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At this point, Your Honor, considering that during the direct examination, several figures were raised, can we give way, Your Honor, to interpolations from the Senator-Judges first as we prepare our notes relating to those figures? 2527 08:39:43,100 --> 08:39:52,720 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, the figures that were flashed, the documents that were flashed are documents that the defense had already been provided. 2528 08:39:53,180 --> 08:39:53,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How 2529 08:39:53,500 --> 08:39:54,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: many minutes do you need, counsel? 2530 08:39:57,130 --> 08:40:01,110 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To be honest, Your Honor, I'm just around halfway, Your Honor. 2531 08:40:01,610 --> 08:40:03,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How many minutes do you 2532 08:40:03,030 --> 08:40:06,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: need to go over your notes to continue? 2533 08:40:07,730 --> 08:40:09,590 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: About an hour or so, Your Honor. 2534 08:40:10,630 --> 08:40:12,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For your cross or to go 2535 08:40:12,410 --> 08:40:27,730 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: over your notes? Just to reconcile, Your Honor, the figures that were flashed. Your Honor, at any rate, Your Honor, the presentation took, what, the entire day, almost six hours. And we're just starting. It's just less than two hours, Your Honor. 2536 08:40:27,890 --> 08:40:37,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, this is already dilatory with all due respect, Your Honor. The defense was already given ample time to prepare for today's hearing. The hearings for... 2537 08:40:39,300 --> 08:40:42,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thursday? Friday was already cancelled upon their request. Do 2538 08:40:42,980 --> 08:40:45,260 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you want to precisely give them time 2539 08:40:45,260 --> 08:40:46,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to prepare? 2540 08:40:46,820 --> 08:40:59,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, if I may. The figures flashed, the only difference of the figures flashed on screen with what was submitted by way of the report of the AMLAC Executive Director was only with respect to the total. 2541 08:41:01,640 --> 08:41:27,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It referred to exactly the same figures that The court gave the counsel-forrespondent enough time to go over. That's why we cancelled the hearing on Friday upon your request, given the voluminous documents. Again, to reiterate, Atty. Mark, the only difference of the documents flashed on 2542 08:41:27,700 --> 08:41:56,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: screen were the totals, as you aptly pointed out, that there were no totals in the... in the table and or tabulation of the witness. I will give you time, counsel, to prepare to continue your cross. But perhaps two or three interjections from Senator-Judges and then you will continue your cross. Senator-Judge Lacson? 2543 08:41:58,640 --> 08:42:02,060 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Sir, Presiding Officer, tanungin ko lang po yung witness. Are you okay, Attorney? 2544 08:42:02,400 --> 08:42:02,980 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 2545 08:42:03,140 --> 08:42:03,360 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Health 2546 08:42:03,360 --> 08:42:04,140 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: -wise, you're okay, ah? 2547 08:42:04,240 --> 08:42:05,500 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you. Okay naman po. 2548 08:42:05,600 --> 08:42:06,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Uy, hindi ka 2549 08:42:06,020 --> 08:42:07,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: pa kumakain ng lunch kanina, ha? 2550 08:42:08,600 --> 08:42:09,280 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Okay lang po. 2551 08:42:16,620 --> 08:42:25,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, Attorney Mark, we'll allow two or three interjections for you to look at your notes so that you can continue your cross. 2552 08:42:25,740 --> 08:42:30,020 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We appreciate that, Your Honor. In the meantime, can we just recognize our lead counsel for just a 2553 08:42:30,020 --> 08:42:30,140 Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: short minute? 2554 08:42:30,140 --> 08:42:37,590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Sheila is recognized. Senator Prior to Atty. Sheila, with their indulgence, Atty. Sheila, Senator 2555 08:42:37,590 --> 08:42:38,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: -Judge Pangalinan is 2556 08:42:38,990 --> 08:42:39,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: recognized. 2557 08:42:39,690 --> 08:43:10,030 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, I'd just like a follow-up question on the earlier question raised by Senator Lacson because I recall the witness has not had lunch. And so, yes, he says he's okay. But I'd like to know if he can proceed with, you know, continuing with the cross-examination as well as the Questions from the Senator-Judges or would you like to likewise have a break or a few minutes? 2558 08:43:11,160 --> 08:43:11,740 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: I can 2559 08:43:11,740 --> 08:43:12,940 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: proceed po, Your Honor. 2560 08:43:13,000 --> 08:43:13,420 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Are you sure? 2561 08:43:13,620 --> 08:43:14,060 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. 2562 08:43:14,280 --> 08:43:16,920 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: We don't want to undermine or compromise your health? 2563 08:43:16,940 --> 08:43:18,640 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: Yes, Your Honor. We understand. Thank 2564 08:43:18,640 --> 08:43:19,300 AMLC Executive Director Atty. Ronel U. Buenaventura: you po for the concern. 2565 08:43:19,300 --> 08:43:26,580 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Maybe we can give him a banana or something para may energy siya but it's up to him, Mr. Presiding Officer. 2566 08:43:27,760 --> 08:43:30,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Sheila, what is your pleasure, ma'am? 2567 08:43:30,460 --> 08:43:31,900 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Good evening, Your Honor. 2568 08:43:32,100 --> 08:43:32,640 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: We 2569 08:43:32,640 --> 08:45:40,740 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: understand the disposition of this Court in wanting to have a more speedy trial and hearing in this case, Your Honor. But I think it would also be more reasonable, prudent, and more fair if both parties are given Ample and meaningful opportunity to fully examine the witness. When Atty. Bin Luan asked for time to organize his notes so that he may intelligently examine this witness, we're not really... And the prosecution insinuates that this is dilatory. That's not to your honor. We take exception to that. In fact, your honor, I don't think there's any doubt here that The prosecution took the entire day direct examining this witness, Your Honor. We have only examined this witness for an hour, Your Honor. We're not asking for a long time. We're simply asking that considered. And it's not only about the data or the availability of the data. In fact, And as I mentioned earlier, when this hearing started, we just received the other day over the weekend the resubmission of the data from this witness, Your Honor. And even if the data were available beforehand or just late last week, Your Honor, the questions propounded during the direct examination specified, targeted certain line items and we also The amount of papers that this witness had to sift through. And there was even a length of time when he had to pause because he had to look at the documents, Your Honor. We're not trying to delay this proceeding. On the other hand, are we also rushing this hearing? Because we're not asking for a lot of time, Your Honor. We started cross-examining this witness. 2570 08:45:43,580 --> 08:46:15,460 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: 5pm. It's only 6.41 with all the other interjections from the other members of this court. We're not trying to delay this hearing. We're only asking for a fair and meaningful opportunity to examine on behalf of the respondent this witness because the prosecution took the entire day. Direct examining this witness. We cannot be rushed in cross-examining this witness, Your Honor. That will not be fair. 2571 08:46:15,740 --> 08:47:04,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: With all due respect, Your Honor, I don't want to engage in a lengthy exchange, Your Honor, but just to address the points raised. The time that they were given to review the documents was the exact same time that we were given. Just like the defense, Your Honor, the prosecution also received the summary from the AMLC on the same day. And yet, Your Honor, we took the pains of going over it over the weekend to prepare for today's hearing. And Your Honor, the manifestation of Atty. Vinluan should not be taken in isolation, the latter manifestation. Earlier, Your Honor, Atty. Vinluan was already requesting to call it a day, Your Honor. And that's where my manifestation about... 2572 08:47:06,000 --> 08:47:13,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: With all due respect to Atty. Winluan, that this statement seemed to be dilatory, Your Honor. That's where the statement presented. 2573 08:47:15,830 --> 08:47:32,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let the Chair declare a brief recess. We'll add this to the time needed by Atty. Mark. But let the Chair call a brief recess and consult the Senator-Judges. Given that, I know it's been a long day for everyone and this is the first time the trial has lasted this long. 2574 08:47:34,430 --> 08:47:47,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And I guess everybody is indeed tired. Even Attorney Mae's back is hurting already. So, Chair will declare a brief recess and shall consult with the Senator-Judges and shall resume in a bit. Trial is in recess. 2575 08:58:53,870 --> 08:59:05,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Upon consultation with the Senator-Judges and upon talking to the witness, for the record, I was informed that Attorney Ronel Buenaventura has been the... 2576 08:59:07,370 --> 08:59:58,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The longest serving witness testifying before the impeachment court in the history of the impeachment court, thrice over. And given that he has not had lunch even. Yung nag-lunch kanina, gutom na nga ngayon eh. Siya pa na hindi nag-lunch. So in due consideration of the witness, we shall... Adjourn in a few minutes and resume tomorrow at 10 a.m. for the cross-examination, not the interjection of Senator-Judges, but cross-examination. The continuation of the cross-examination of Attorney Mark, as well as redirect by Attorney May, recross if any, and the interjections of Senator-Judges. And hopefully, we can begin... 2577 09:00:00,000 --> 09:01:08,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If not finished as well, the testimony of the other witnesses in line for tomorrow and Wednesday. For the guidance, it was pointed out to the presiding officer by the counsel for respondent that the time we gave for the whole day trials is about 6.30. We will try our best to finish it before dinner, but the chair will not hold the... kindly not... Do not hold the chair to it because depending on the exigencies of the trial, we may exceed 6.30 and simply call for a dinner recess and resume. If for example, just as an example, the witness would no longer be available in the succeeding days or for some other exigency that we do not foresee. But having said that, for today, this is the longest day we've had. I know everybody is tired and as the Chair said earlier as well before we began with this hearing, a bit short as well given the long day. So we shall call it a day then. Honorable Redon? 2578 09:01:08,320 --> 09:01:11,120 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: Not to delay the adjournment. We just wanted 2579 09:01:11,120 --> 09:01:20,520 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: to raise the request for stipulation relating to the banks and the insurance companies and the investment companies. 2580 09:01:20,920 --> 09:01:21,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly 2581 09:01:21,480 --> 09:01:22,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: submit that. 2582 09:01:23,190 --> 09:01:35,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I believe the council correspondent has it already at the appropriate time before the bank witnesses and insurance companies testify. I believe we can hear from the council correspondent. Do you commit, Attorney Sheila? 2583 09:01:36,230 --> 09:01:56,560 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. I confirm that we have received a request for stipulation. If the court would allow, we'll say our response now. The request is rejected, Your Honor. And we will make our comment. to the offer at the appropriate time when they present their witnesses. 2584 09:01:56,840 --> 09:01:56,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That would be the appropriate 2585 09:01:56,920 --> 09:02:00,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: time to do so, yes. Given your rejection of the stipulation. 2586 09:02:00,920 --> 09:02:01,760 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you. 2587 09:02:01,920 --> 09:02:04,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Any other matter you want to take up, Honorable Redon? 2588 09:02:05,020 --> 09:02:06,240 Rep. Terry L. Ridon: No further matters, Your Honor. 2589 09:02:06,620 --> 09:02:08,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Kiko, Pangilinan is recognized. 2590 09:02:11,780 --> 09:02:22,060 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, Mr. Presiding Officer. Just a quick manifestation. Earlier, the Defense counsel was raising the issue of criminal liability as to disclosure. 2591 09:02:24,070 --> 09:02:35,710 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: of AMLA records. The witness has already said that it is his view that his disclosure is authorized because of the subpoena. 2592 09:02:37,360 --> 09:02:52,220 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: The defense counsel likewise mentioned or raised issues about the house prosecution and the disclosure of AMLA records in the house, again raising issues of criminal liability. 2593 09:02:56,120 --> 09:03:38,770 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: It leads us to think that maybe in the cross-examination, I don't know. The defense counsel will raise the issue of the possible criminal liability of the senator-judges. I don't know. It's a matter of concern. And I just want that placed on record. We have the Senate presiding officer has ruled. If the defense wishes to raise this issue, bring it. To the Supreme Court, perhaps. But raising the issue of possible criminal liability for authorized disclosure in this impeachment court, I believe, is 2594 09:03:41,420 --> 09:03:42,020 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: uncalled for. 2595 09:03:42,120 --> 09:03:42,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the 2596 09:03:42,780 --> 09:03:48,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: record. Senator-Judge, Sotto is recognized. What is your pleasure, sir? 2597 09:03:49,180 --> 09:03:52,720 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Just to wrap it up on that particular issue. 2598 09:03:55,030 --> 09:04:02,910 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: The counsels in the impeachment should be reminded of the term parliamentary immunity. 2599 09:04:06,670 --> 09:04:12,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Duly noted. Senator-Judge Irvin, what is your pleasure, sir? 2600 09:04:12,450 --> 09:04:20,250 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. We have given the prosecution about more or less six hours time. 2601 09:04:22,000 --> 09:04:42,790 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Are we going to or shall we also give about six hours time tomorrow for the defense for your questioning? Because it will be unfair if we tomorrow it will be they will not be given time Mr. Presiding Officer. 2602 09:04:43,050 --> 09:04:47,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Not necessarily six hours but neither will we shorten it unduly. 2603 09:04:48,970 --> 09:05:16,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We believe in the reasonableness and candor of lawyers in appearing before this court and we shall rely on that, Your Honor. It's not really equal when it comes to time for direct cross, redirect, and recross. It will depend on the councils themselves. As you have seen, sometimes the council correspondent does not have any cross. despite the long direct examination of the counsel for the panel of prosecutors. So it's totally up to them. 2604 09:05:17,050 --> 09:05:28,570 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: You're right, Mr. Presiding Officer. I was just kind of wondering because the defense is saying like they're not even halfway through questioning the witness, Mr. Presiding Officer. 2605 09:05:28,810 --> 09:05:28,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We 2606 09:05:28,930 --> 09:06:06,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: will not unduly shorten it but neither will we allow delays, Your Honor. But you have to count as part of the direct examination the objections of the counsel for the respondent and the arguments of the lawyers as well as the ruling of the court. And the same is true for the cross-examination. You have to take into account the objections of the counsel from the panel of prosecutors, their arguments, and the corresponding ruling of the court. So it's not just really their questioning. It would depend on your honor and the court and the presiding officer cannot predict what will happen and how long it will take. But we will give you ample time, Attorney Martin. to finish your cross-examination tomorrow. 2607 09:06:07,250 --> 09:06:08,270 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 2608 09:06:08,590 --> 09:06:08,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney, 2609 09:06:10,470 --> 09:06:17,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sorry, jagod na talaga. Senator-Judge Riza is recognized. What is your pleasure, ma'am? 2610 09:06:19,600 --> 09:07:13,600 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Maikling dagdag lang po kaugnay ng mga manifestations ni na Senator-Judges Kiko at Tito. Tingin ko rin po, mali rin na Kahit indirectly, bantaan ang media sa pagganap nila ng kanilang esensyal na tungkulin na i-cover yung mga proceedings na ito. Iparating sa madla, sa pamamagitan man ng traditional or kahit social media ang mga kaganapan dito para po mapagusapan, mapag-isipan at makabuo ng mga opinion yung ating mga kababayan. Dapat po walang chilling effect na either sadyang or disadyang lilikain sa hanay ng fourth estate. Yun lang po, Mr. Presiding Officer, at salamat po. 2611 09:07:16,570 --> 09:07:29,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If there are no other Senator-Judges who wishes to make a manifestation, it's 7.02. It's been our longest day. We've been at it for over eight hours minus the lunch breaks and the short breaks of Attorney Mark. 2612 09:07:31,210 --> 09:07:38,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So we call it a day. And trial is adjourned until tomorrow, October 6, at 10 o'clock in the morning. 2613 09:07:40,040 --> 09:07:40,920 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Thank you, Your Honor.