# September 15, 2026 Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Duterte Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8rrszFOqEI Status: Reviewed working draft, revision 3 **[00:07:29.270] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The sergeant at arms is directed to make a proclamation. **[00:07:34.310] Alfredo Sotto Corpuz** All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the impeachment court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. **[00:07:45.450] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. **[00:07:52.530] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** We shall be led in prayer by Senator-Judge Christopher Bong Go. **[00:08:02.390] Sen. Christopher Bong Go** Let us put ourselves in the presence of the Lord. **[00:08:09.170] Sen. Christopher Bong Go** Almighty God, we come before you today seeking your wisdom, guidance, and strength as we fulfill the duties entrusted to us by the Filipino people. We pray for the peaceful conduct of the ongoing BARM elections and and for the continued success of the Bangsamoro Peace Process. Matagal nang pinagdadaanan ng ating mga kapatid sa Bangsamoro ang landas tungo sa kapayapaan. Naway magiging pagkakataon ng halalan upang mas marinig ang boses ng taong bayan at lalo pang mapagtibay ang kapayapaan, pagkakaisa, at pagunlad sa rehyon. Kami rin po ay pinili ng taong bayan upang maging kanilang mga kinatawan. Nawa'y huwag naming sayangin ang tiwalang ipinagkaloob nila sa amin sapagkat sa aming mga disisyon ay nakasalalay hindi lamang ang kasalukuyan kundi maging ang kinabukasan ng ating bansa at ng mga susunod na henerasyon. In this important moment for our nation, grant us clarity of mind and sincerity of heart. May we always be guided by truth, fairness, respect for our institutions, and above all, the welfare of every Filipino. Lord, as we perform our solemn duty as Senator-Judges, remind us that the credibility and integrity of this Court rests upon how faithfully and fairly we discharge our responsibilities. Tayo ang pinili at pinagkatiwalaan ng mahalagang tungkulin ito, naway maging patas at makatarungan kami sa bawat hakbang at disisyon aming gagawin. Lord, We also pray for our countrymen who continue to face the daily struggles of life sa gitna ng hirap ng buhay, pagtaas ng mga bilihin, mga sakuna, at iba pang pagsubok. Tulungan mo kaming huwag malimutan ang tunay na dahilan ng aming paglilingkod, ang mapabuti ang buhay ng bawat Pilipino. May this process never divide us as a nation, sa halip naway manaig ang ating pagkakabuklod-buklod Pagalang sa isa't isa at pagmamalasakit sa kapwa. I am for unity. I am for healing of this country. Sana matapos na ito para makatrabaho na tayo. Remind us that beyond our positions and responsibilities, we share one country and one responsibility to protect its people in its future. Guide each one of us to act according to our conscience, the Constitution, and the rule of law. Give us the humility to listen, the courage to do what is right, and the wisdom to place the interests of the Filipino people above all else. May our decisions contribute to a stronger, more peaceful, more united, and healed Philippines. All these we ask in your holy name. Amen. **[00:11:21.010] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Senator-Judge Pia S. Cayetano, Senator-Judge Ronald "Bato" M. dela Rosa, Senator-Judge Joseph Victor "JV" G. Ejercito, Senator-Judge Jinggoy Ejercito Estrada, Senator-Judge Christopher Bong Go, Senator-Judge Risa Hontiveros, Senator-Judge Panfilo "Ping" M. Lacson, Senator-Judge Manuel "Lito" M. Lapid, Senator-Judge Loren Legarda, Senator-Judge Rodante Marcoleta, Senator-Judge Imee Marcos, Senator-Judge Robinhood "Robin" Padilla, Senator-Judge Francis "Kiko" Pangilinan, Senator-Judge Vicente "Tito" C. Sotto III, Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo, Senator-Judge Raffy T. Tulfo, Senator-Judge Joel Villanueva, Senator-Judge Camille Villar, Senator-Judge Mark A. Villar, Senator-Judge Juan Miguel "Migz" F. Zubiri, the Presiding Officer, Senator-Judge Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero, Senate President, Senator-Judge Sherwin T. Gatchalian. **[00:12:04.300] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** With 17 Senator-judges present, the Chair declares the presence of a quorum. **[00:12:11.180] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** In accordance with the rules of procedure on impeachment trials, the Chair now recognizes the duly elected Presiding Officer to preside over the proceedings of the Impeachment Court. **[00:12:21.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Mr. Senate President. If there are no objections, we shall dispense with the reading of the September 14, 2026 Journal of the Senate sitting as an impeachment court and consider the same as approved. The Clerk of Court will please call the case before the impeachment court. **[00:12:36.580] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Case number 004-2026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. **[00:12:43.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Appearances of the parties. **[00:12:46.380] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** For the prosecution, magandang umaga po. We are ready, Your Honors. Good morning, **[00:12:51.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honorable Ridon. For the respondent? **[00:12:52.760] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearance for the defense. **[00:12:55.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Good morning, Atty. Sheila. Who is your witness for this morning, Honorable Ridon? **[00:13:01.520] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Handa po kami i-presenta si Atty. Karen Batu ng Office of the Ombudsman. **[00:13:06.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Who will be presenting the witness? **[00:13:09.360] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** It will be Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih, member of the panel of the prosecutors. **[00:13:16.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel for the panel of prosecutors. **[00:13:43.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. James, call your witness. **[00:13:45.210] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Good morning, Your Honor. It's a pleasure to be in your presence today. For the record, again, I am James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih of PECABAR Law, appearing as counsel for the prosecutors. With your kind permission, Your Honor, we would like to call to the witness stand Atty. Karen S. Batu, the officer in charge of the Central Records Division of the Office of the Ombudsman. **[00:14:08.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly situate Atty. Karen Batu to the witness stand. **[00:14:17.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The clerk of court is directed to administer the oath to Attorney Batu. **[00:14:23.740] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Ma'am, please raise your right hand. You, Karen S. Batu, do swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. **[00:14:43.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Maganda umaga po, Attorney Batu. Naunawaan niyo po ang pinanumpaan ninyo? **[00:14:47.720] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor. **[00:14:49.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay, your witness, Attorney James, **[00:14:51.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** kindly **[00:14:52.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** make your offer. **[00:14:53.280] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, your honor. Good morning again, your honors, and also good morning to our friends from the defense. Chief, good morning. Good morning, James. All right. Your honor, we are presenting Attorney Batu for the following purposes. Number one, and for ease of reference, your honor, the same are being flashed on screen. So number one, to prove that The witness is the officer in charge of the records division of the Office of the Ombudsman and has been serving in such capacity since December 2025. Number two, to prove that the Office of the Ombudsman is the official repository of the statements of assets, liabilities, and net worth. And for brevity or honor, allow me to refer to this as SAL-N throughout these proceedings of constitutional, national, and local elective officials, including the SAL-Ns of the Vice President Sara Duterte for the years 2007 to 2012, and then from 2016 to 2020-25. Number three, to **[00:16:01.660] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** prove that the network declared by the Vice President in her SAL-Ns for 2007 to 2025 including its components like the amount of cash and other personal properties she declared for those years. Number four, to prove that based on the Vice President's own declarations under oath in her SALNs for 2007 to 2025, her declared net worth as well as that of her spouse, Atty. Manasseh Scarpio, increased from 7,250,497 pesos in 2007 65,308,841 in 2021 and later to 98,656,131.20 in 2025 or an increase of around 91 million from 2007. Number five, to prove that the Vice President did not declare any cash on hand, or cash in bank in her SAL-Ns for the years 2019 to 2025 after making cash declarations in her 2007 to 2012 and 2016 to 2018 SAL-Ns. Number 6. To prove that based on the official records of the Ombudsman, the Vice President's SAL-Ns contain no declaration of any foreign currency deposits, including deposits denominated in U.S. dollars or even other foreign currencies, all including Chinese RMB and the like. **[00:17:48.080] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Number seven, to prove that the Vice President Duterte declared under oath in her silence that she and or her spouse, Atty. Carpio, have various business and financial interests but failed to declare their ownership of the shares of stock and their corresponding acquisition, or cost or value rather. Number eight, **[00:18:13.090] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** to **[00:18:16.240] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** prove that despite her election as Vice President in June 2022 and as declared under oath in her SAL-N for the succeeding years, Vice President Duterte did not divest and instead willfully continued her business and financial interest. To emphasize, in Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, GenCorp Industries Inc., and other corporations. **[00:18:42.380] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Number nine, to identify your honors and authenticate the certified true copies of the SAL-Ns involving those years that I've mentioned. And lastly, to prove other material allegations in relation to the articles of impeachment. Thank you. **[00:19:08.140] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Purpose number one, Your Honor, the defense is willing to stipulate, **[00:19:11.120] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor. **[00:19:11.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** As well as number two, perhaps. However, there has to be a correction on number two, Your Honor, as I think they stated that the repository for all elective officials would be the Office of the Ombudsman. Just for accuracy's sake, Your Honor, regional and local elective officials, the repository is the Office of the Deputy Ombudsman in their respective region. We just want that clarified, Your Honor. What **[00:19:33.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Do you say, Attorney James? **[00:19:34.220] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Nevertheless, Your Honor, whether they are regional, Local. These are all still part of the Office of the Ombudsman so there's really no need for the nuancing. I think **[00:19:44.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** the nuance is necessary in order to dispense with proving that Attorney Batu is aware of these salends filed when the Vice President was still Vice Mayor or Mayor. **[00:19:58.050] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. Thank **[00:19:58.970] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you for understanding the point. **[00:20:00.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. And in relation to that, I guess the next stipulation would also be, Your Honor, that all those SAL-Ns are true and authentic. Is that correct? **[00:20:09.570] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** We are not willing to stipulate on that, Your Honor. **[00:20:14.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Proceed with your comments, Attorney Justin. **[00:20:15.200] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. We will proceed to our objections, Your Honor. Just to be clarified, we are particularly referring to purposes number 3, 4, and 9, Your Honor, as this refer to documents or SAL-Ns. Covering periods which the respondent was not an impeachable officer, Your Honor. This is the proper time to raise this because we are not objecting to the documentary evidence yet as it is not the proper time. But we are objecting to the offer of the testimonial evidence which the witness will be producing before this court today, Your Honor. Again, Your Honor, we reiterate the ruling of Duterte v. House of Representatives that only matters In relation to the impeachable term that are committed or done in the, allegedly, in the impeachable, in relation to the position, Your Honor, are matters that can be or within the ambit of this impeachment court, Your Honor. We are therefore objecting on the ground of irrelevance and inadmissibility, Your Honor, for the rest of the offer, Your Honor, subject to cross-examination. **[00:21:19.870] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, may we comment? **[00:21:20.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Your Honor? No need, so we can proceed. The chair would like to remind counsel for the respondent the ruling of the chair with respect to the issuance of the subpoenas covering the period 2007 up to 2025. That pursuant to OMB, Office of the Ombudsman v. Bernardo, GR 18-1598, dated March 2013, there is a necessity to establish the baseline. Not for the prosecution but equally for the respondent in order to find out what is the base figure for the computation of the salon during her term as vice president. The chair also clarified when it ruled in favor of granting the subpoena that we are not adding to the charges against the vice president for supposed acts committed prior to her term as vice president. The only ones she's being charged of before the impeachment court would be those committed during her term as vice president from 2022 up to the present. And whatever it is that may be shown is only for purposes of establishing a baseline and not adding to the charges already made in the articles of impeachment that are outside her term. We will register your continuing objection, Attorney Justin. With respect to offers number 3, 4, and 9. Would that be correct? **[00:22:49.580] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. **[00:22:50.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Very well, **[00:22:51.580] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor. Subject to cross. A **[00:22:52.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** continuing objection with respect to offers 3, 4, and 9 is hereby noted. Attorney James, your witness, you may proceed when you're ready. Salamat po and thank you **[00:23:02.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** for the clarification, Your Honor. **[00:23:05.030] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And again, Attorney James, to clarify, whatever the witness will say with respect to the period before the Vice President became Vice President is only for the establishment of a baseline. **[00:23:16.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** That is precisely what we're about to do, Your Honor. **[00:23:18.610] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Please proceed, **[00:23:19.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel. **[00:23:21.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Good **[00:23:21.690] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** morning, Madam Witness. **[00:23:22.550] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Good morning. **[00:23:24.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Would you mind telling us first your personal circumstances for the record, please? **[00:23:30.080] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I'm attorney Karen S. Batu. I'm the officer in charge of the Central Records Division of the Office of the Ombudsman. Madam **[00:23:37.100] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Witness, at any time if you cannot understand my question, please feel free to correct me or to ask for a clarification. Is that okay? **[00:23:44.600] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[00:23:45.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Thank you, po. Sige. I understand that you're also a lawyer. Is that right? **[00:23:50.290] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[00:23:51.130] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How long have you been a member of the bar, please? **[00:23:53.970] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I took the bar in 2014 and passed the bar. I became a member of the bar in 2015. **[00:24:00.350] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And how long have you been working in the office of the ombudsman? **[00:24:04.850] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I've been with the office of the ombudsman since 2010. **[00:24:08.390] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2010. **[00:24:11.000] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** From 2010, what other positions, if any, have you held in the office of the ombudsman? **[00:24:16.200] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I started as a graph prevention and control officer with the Public Assistance and Corruption Prevention Office. And then, after passing the bar, I got promoted to the position of graph investigation officer 1. And I was assigned at the ombudsman proper. Prior to that, the overall deputy ombudsman office. **[00:24:38.970] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Just last year, I got promoted to the position of Graft Investigation and Prosecution Officer III. **[00:24:46.370] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. Ma'am, just to clarify, pwede po kayo mag-Tagalog or English kung **[00:24:50.650] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** saan po kayo **[00:24:51.150] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** komportable po? **[00:24:52.030] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po. **[00:24:52.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. **[00:24:53.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. Sige po. Nabanggit niyo po na kayo ay nasa OIC ng CRD or Central Records Division. Tama po? Tama **[00:25:02.750] Atty. Karen S. Batu** po. **[00:25:03.110] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Ano naman po itong CRD po na ito? **[00:25:05.710] Atty. Karen S. Batu** The Central Records Division is a frontline service of the Office of the Ombudsman in charge of the case records management which include receiving, releasing, the storing, and eventual disposing of these documents such as complaints. **[00:25:28.150] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Pleadings, Salens, and Letters. **[00:25:30.950] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Complaints, Pleadings, Salens, and Letters. **[00:25:33.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** But **[00:25:33.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** for purposes of today's hearing, let's just focus on Salen. At paulit-ulit na po natin narinig ito. From the Ombudsman, ano po ba ang Salen? **[00:25:43.570] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang SALN po, based po sa RA 6713, ito po ay isang statement made under oath. It's a declaration under oath of a public official. **[00:25:57.950] Atty. Karen S. Batu** pertaining to his or her assets, liabilities, net worth, including the spouses. **[00:26:05.970] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. Pagpasensya niyo na mama, hindi pa kasi ako nagdo-government so I'm not familiar with SAL-N. But when you say that SAL-Ns are under oath, ano po bang ibig sabihin nun? **[00:26:16.450] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ito po ay sinumpaang salaysay. **[00:26:18.530] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Nino? **[00:26:19.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nang declarant or nang public official. **[00:26:21.770] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So ibig sabihin po, and this is just confirmatory, Yung SAL-N, pinapanumpaan nung deklarant, ano yung pinapanumpaan niya? **[00:26:29.740] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Na ito yung natutoo yung mga nilagay niya dun sa SAL-N. Natutoo **[00:26:34.040] Atty. Karen S. Batu** yung nasa laman ng SAL **[00:26:35.640] Atty. Karen S. Batu** -N. **[00:26:36.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At nagpo-file din kayo ng SAL-N, tama? **[00:26:38.990] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[00:26:39.810] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At nanunumpa kayo na tama yung SAL-N niyo? **[00:26:41.810] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[00:26:42.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Very good. Sige po. At sino naman po yung required na mag-file ng SAL-Ns? **[00:26:48.810] Atty. Karen S. Batu** All officials of the government except for **[00:26:53.960] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I think those who are in honorary capacity, mga laborers and those **[00:27:04.680] Atty. Karen S. Batu** on contractual, mga casual employees. **[00:27:07.560] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay, wait. So yung nabanggit niyong tatlo, sila yung hindi kailangan mag-file? **[00:27:11.780] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi po, **[00:27:12.220] Atty. Karen S. Batu** hindi. **[00:27:12.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** But all other public officials must file a SAL-ED, is that correct? **[00:27:16.760] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[00:27:17.300] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And perhaps that includes the Vice President? **[00:27:20.400] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[00:27:21.120] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And in relation to what you mentioned a while ago, Regardless, whether it's a **[00:27:26.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** public official or the vice president herself, pinapanumpaan nila na tama yung laman ng SAL-N na yun. **[00:27:33.140] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Asked and answered and leading, Your Honor. **[00:27:34.920] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** We'll just proceed, Your Honor, to the next point. **[00:27:36.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Move to the next point, Attorney James. **[00:27:38.220] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Thank you, po. Sige. **[00:27:42.220] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Madam Witness, do you recall receiving a letter dated June 16 from the House of Representatives? **[00:27:51.050] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. And **[00:27:52.880] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** in that letter, there was a request for you to submit the sal-ends of the Vice President from 2007 to 2025. Is that correct? **[00:28:02.300] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[00:28:03.040] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And what actions, if any, have you taken in relation to that letter? **[00:28:07.200] Atty. Karen S. Batu** We prepared the sal-ends and then submitted it to the House of Representatives. **[00:28:12.020] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And if the sal-ends are shown to you, would you be able to identify this? **[00:28:16.060] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[00:28:16.720] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, at this point, may I respectfully ask that Atty. Luis Perez, my assisting lawyer, also from Pekabar Lawyer Honor, to assist me in confronting the witness with the documents and perhaps to check the witness from time to time if she's still okay. **[00:28:34.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Luis is authorized. Also, corresponding assisting counsel from the respondent is also equally authorized to approach the witness at any point in time while she is testifying. **[00:28:46.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Salamat po. Please **[00:28:47.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** proceed, counsel. **[00:28:48.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige. Ayan po, Madam Witness, pakitingin naman po yung mga dokumento na binibigay sa inyo. Kindly go over them and let us know, or let the court know, if these are the same SAL-Ns that you submitted to the House of Representatives. **[00:29:07.650] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** To save the court some time, Your Honor, while the witness is perusing the documents, may I just manifest that the SAL-Ns of the Vice President are previously marked as P. Roman Numeral- Sorry. P Roman numeral 2-1-1A until P Roman numeral 2-1-1R. And it's Mark Inseratin, Your Honor, for your consideration, please. **[00:29:32.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Julie, noted. **[00:29:33.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Thank you. **[00:29:40.890] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, **[00:29:41.590] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** just a manifestation. **[00:29:42.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes. **[00:29:43.450] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** We would like to manifest, Your Honor, that the copies of the Statement of Assets, Liabilities, and Net Worth that is currently being identified by the witness right now are redacted, Your Honor, just for the record. **[00:29:54.110] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Noted, Your **[00:29:54.610] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Honor. **[00:29:58.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Noted. **[00:29:58.240] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Thank you, Your Honor. **[00:30:07.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Are they all certified through copies? That **[00:30:10.760] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** is correct, Your Honor. **[00:30:11.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Justin, you confirm? **[00:30:18.640] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, yes. They are certified through copies, as they appear. But it appears that they are photocopies of certified through copies. **[00:30:24.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay. Noted. **[00:30:26.060] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** For the record, yes. **[00:31:08.880] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Are you **[00:31:13.740] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** ready to answer, Madam Witness? **[00:31:15.890] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So, **[00:31:16.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** again po, ano po yung relasyon ng mga SAL-Ns or yung mga dokumentong pinakita sa inyo ngayon doon sa nabanggit nyo na sinabit nyo sa House of Representatives? **[00:31:27.280] Atty. Karen S. Batu** These are the same SAL-Ns that we prepared and submitted to the House of Representatives. **[00:31:32.100] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. Ang may magandang point po na ni-raise yung kaibigan natin from the defense at medyo naging curious na rin ako kasi sabi nila may mga reduction daw po. Gusto ko lang po maintindihan, bakit nga ba may reduction yung mga portions doon sa SAL-N? **[00:31:47.860] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nirequire po kasi na i-reduct yung names ng mga minor children. **[00:31:53.040] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. So yung rason po kung bakit redacted ay dahil? **[00:31:59.790] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yung mga minor children should not be, I think, should not be involved in this. Dapat naman natin silang protektahan, di ba? **[00:32:05.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa lahat po ng dokumento, Atty. Bato, yung pangalan lamang ng mga minor children ang redacted? **[00:32:13.500] Atty. Karen S. Batu** May mga addresses din po kami na niredact, Your Honor. **[00:32:17.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Meaning, tirahan po nila? **[00:32:19.570] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po. **[00:32:20.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Maliban po doon, mayroon pang iba? **[00:32:22.850] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala na po. **[00:32:23.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Para sa kalaman po ng publiko, ang redacted po ibig sabihin binlockout po gamit ng itim na tinta para hindi makita o mabasa. Tama po, Atty. Karn? **[00:32:34.050] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[00:32:35.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** May proceed, counsel? **[00:32:36.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Salamat po. Sige. Diretsoy na natin yung mga silence, Madam Witness. **[00:32:44.310] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** But so that I can proceed in a swift manner, gawin natin preterm, no? Tingnan muna natin yung SAL-Ns nung ating Vice President from 2007 to 2009. And at this point, I want to talk about the business interests of the Vice President. Your Honor, **[00:33:03.080] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** if I may be heard, Your Honor. **[00:33:05.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Counsel for the Respondent. **[00:33:07.630] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Apologies, Your Honor, but right now, the defense is now constrained to object, Your Honor, to the presentation of these portions of the SAL-N on screen. Since the purpose of the witness, Your Honor, is merely to identify and authenticate the silence as submitted with the House of Representatives, Your Honor. Your Honor, allow **[00:33:26.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** him **[00:33:28.350] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** to finish. Yes, Your Honor. And as it appears, Your Honor, we cannot even determine whether these are the silence of the Vice President. But nevertheless, Your Honor, if the purpose of the witness is precisely to authenticate and to identify the silence, it has already been achieved when the witness was confronted and... And the witness has no personal knowledge on anything contained in these documents, Your Honor. The documents speaks for themselves. And to continue confronting the witness with these documents, asking her about the contents thereof, which she will only confirm, will not serve the interest of time, and is also prohibited because she has no personal knowledge over these documents. **[00:34:09.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, I promise to be quick, Your Honor. We do not want to belabor this point. I think the Honorable Court has time and again allowed questions on the basis of records or documents as long as it will not vary the contents thereof. Insofar as the personal knowledge of the witness, it was established earlier that she is the custodian and necessarily, she has personal knowledge over the contents of these documents. But I'll be fair to the defense, Your Honor. Of course, we are not saying that She was the one who prepared it and I'm sure that will be part of their cross later on. We're not saying that. We're only saying that her personality is based as the custodian of these records. If **[00:34:49.240] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** I may be able to briefly respond on another new matter, Your Honor. **[00:34:52.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Attorney Justin. **[00:34:53.700] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, I think the prosecution should also be strictly reminded of the ruling of the presiding officer that these silence shall be exclusively used to establish the baseline. Now, if they are confronting the witness now with what appears to be Portions of the business interest, Your Honor, that is not covered within the limitations of the offer that this presiding officer has already ruled. Secondly, Your Honor, any testimony of the witness in relation to the face of these documents will now be her own interpretation which, as admitted by the prosecution themselves, she does not have personal knowledge. We request that this not be permitted with all due respect, Your Honor. **[00:35:32.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Final comment, Attorney James? Your Honor, I am a bit perplexed. How can we establish the baseline if we're not allowed to ask the questions that would elicit the facts relative to the baseline, Your Honor? So may we just invoke the previous ruling of this honorable court, Your Honor? **[00:35:49.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The objection is overruled. Witness may answer. She is testifying based on official record. She has custody of but with the limit subject to the limitation that she is not. testifying as to the truth of the content stated therein because she has no personal knowledge of it but only as to the fact that these were the assailants submitted to her and that it contained these facts as subscribed to by the Declarant. Witness may answer? Understood, Your **[00:36:16.660] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Honor. We would just like to record our continuing objection. **[00:36:19.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The continuing objection of counsel for the respondent, Attorney Justin, is duly noted and recorded. **[00:36:24.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Permission to proceed, Your Honor, please. Please proceed, Attorney James. Salamat. Again, balikan ko lang Madam Witness kasi gusto kong pag-usapan ngayon yung business interest ng ating Vice President. Simulan natin yung 2007 to 2009. Base po sa dokumento or yung sal-ends na finial mismo ng ating Vice President, ano po ba yung mga business interest o negosyo ng ating Vice President? **[00:36:51.380] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Objection, Your Honor. The witness is incompetent. And this is a different objection. My earlier objection was pertaining to what is flashed on the screen. Now my objection pertains to the question of the counsel. **[00:37:02.100] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** What was the objection again, Your Honor? **[00:37:04.680] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Incompetent, Your **[00:37:05.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Honor. **[00:37:05.840] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Again, has no personal knowledge over these documents. The documents speak for themselves. **[00:37:10.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** She can read based on what is stated in the documents, counsel, not as her personal knowledge. Again, not as the truth of what is stated therein. Because she has no personal knowledge in regard to that, but only as regards the documents she is being confronted with. And you proceed, counsel. **[00:37:25.580] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Salamat po. Again, your honor, for ease of reference of the honorable members of the court, the same are being, or the pertinent portions are being flashed on screen. But perhaps I can request your honor, the tech booth, to zoom it a bit para po makita nung iba. Sige po, Madam Witness. Ano po, based dun sa 2007 to 2009 SAL-N ng ating Vice President, ang dineklara niyang mga negosyo, kung meron man? **[00:37:54.040] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2007, 2008, and 2009 sall-ins ng ating Vice President, ito po yung mga naka-declare na business interests, Dabao Emerging Taipan Corporation, Dabao Bounty Times Food Corporation, at City Hall King Chow Foods Corporation. **[00:38:13.500] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po, salamat. Your Honor, before I proceed further, with your kind permission, I would just like to manifest a matter of mandatory judicial notice that under Section 8, of RA 6713. More specifically, Section 8, Enumeration B at C. And I think we have that on B at C. Ang sinasabi po na ang SAL-N dapat napapaloob dito ang personal property and acquisition costs. C, all other assets such as investments, cash on hand, or cash in bank, stocks, bonds, and the like. But more particularly, Your Honor, on Section B, Personal Property and Acquisition Cost. Madam Witness? **[00:39:03.200] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, just a manifestation. This is the presentation of a witness, Your Honor, and it is highly improper for a counsel to discuss points of law in the middle of a presentation, Your Honor. And secondly, Your Honor, as admitted by the counsel himself, this is a matter of judicial notice. So, there is no need to discuss these matters right now, Your Honor. And in fact, they even presented a witness precisely for this matter yesterday, Your Honor. **[00:39:28.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Truly noted, counsel. It's a **[00:39:30.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** manifestation. Proceed, Attorney James. Salamat po. **[00:39:33.820] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So, balikan natin, ma'am, yung SAL-N. Kasi gaya nung nabasa ko kanina sa Section 86713, dapat nakadeklara yung personal property at yung acquisition costs. So, doon po sa mga damanggit nyo, na businesses or negosyo ng Vice President. Meron po ba sa personal properties portion ng SAL-N na banggit na shares of stocks ng mga kumpanyang ito? **[00:40:00.880] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Objection. Leading, Your **[00:40:01.980] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Honor. **[00:40:02.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I'll reform, Your Honor. **[00:40:03.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Can reform. **[00:40:04.140] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Thank you. So, Madam Witness, what are the shares, if any, corresponding to the business interest declared by no less than the Vice President herself? **[00:40:19.210] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2007 SAL-N, wala pong din-declare si VP Sara na stocks or any acquisition costs. Pero **[00:40:28.930] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** bago kayo tumuloy dyan, Madam Witness, just to clarify, doon po sa SAL-N niya, sinasabi niya na stockholder siya ng kumpanyang yan, tama? **[00:40:35.830] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Objection leading. It's just preliminary, Your Honor, so we'll open up our questions. That is no **[00:40:39.770] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** longer preliminary, Your Honor. He is in the middle of his examination. **[00:40:42.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Reform counsel, you know how to get there. **[00:40:44.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. So, doon po sa business interest na dineklara niya, ano po yung nature or connection niya sa mga business interest na ito kung meron man? **[00:40:57.640] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nakalagay po dito, declared as stockholder. **[00:41:01.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. But balikan ko lang, sa personal properties niya, kinukumpirman niyo kanina na wala namang nakasulat na shares of stock. **[00:41:08.660] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Objection. Leading again, Your Honor. **[00:41:10.200] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Just confirmatory, Your Honor. **[00:41:11.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The answer of the witness. Still prohibited. What was your question, Attorney James? **[00:41:16.440] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, if I may extend briefly, the witness answered a while ago. That **[00:41:20.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** she's a stockholder, yes. **[00:41:22.000] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And then I asked her now if in the personal properties, there was nothing or there was no declaration of shares of stocks. Kasi initially po, sabi niya kanina, wala daw po ang shares of stocks. **[00:41:32.920] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Precisely, Your Honor, we cannot allow leading questions because number one, it is prohibited during **[00:41:36.960] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** the day. **[00:41:37.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I will have to sustain **[00:41:37.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the **[00:41:37.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** objection, Counsel. Let's **[00:41:39.500] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** find your Honor. Thank you. So again, Madam Witness, What are the shares of stocks declared by the Vice President in relation to the companies that you've just mentioned for the SAL-Ns 2007, 2008, 2009? Kung meron man. **[00:41:56.640] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Objection, Your Honor. Compound refers to three different documents. It's not compound. If **[00:42:01.060] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** may I explain, Your Honor? **[00:42:02.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Not **[00:42:02.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** necessarily **[00:42:02.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** compound, counsel, because you mentioned that you would be dealing with these three SAL-Ns. Together, in order to abbreviate the time of the court. **[00:42:11.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, sir. Understood, Your Honor. **[00:42:13.790] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So, again po, ano po yung shares of stocks na dineklara ng Vice President in relation dun sa mga negosyo na banggit niya, kung meron man? **[00:42:22.090] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2007, wala pong nakadeclare na stocks. Para po sa 2008, meron pong nakadeclare na stocks equity paid. Pero sa 2009, **[00:42:42.730] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala din pong nakadeclare na stocks. **[00:42:45.070] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige **[00:42:45.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** po. I'll zero in on the 2007 SALN where those businesses that you've mentioned were already existing. Ang tanong ko po ito, Madam Witness, meron po bang nakadeklarang, or sorry, what is the declared acquisition cost or puhunan ng mga negosyong ito kung meron man? **[00:43:09.400] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala pong dineclare si VP Sara. **[00:43:11.740] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay, salamat po. I'm sorry. So meron pong negosyo pero walang deklaradong puhunan. Tama po ba? Yun **[00:43:18.050] Atty. Karen S. Batu** po yung nasa sali nyo. Alright. **[00:43:19.790] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. Let's proceed now to 2010 to 2012. And for context, Madam Witness, this is the time where the Vice President was elected as City Mayor of Davao City. And I think this is her first term as City Mayor of Davao City. Now briefly, Madam Witness, kindly go over those documents. **[00:43:43.420] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Tell us, what are the business interests or negosyo that were declared in those three salends during the first term of the Vice President as Mayor of Davao City? **[00:44:05.640] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2010 salien ng ating Vice President, nakadeclared po yung Dabao Emerging Taipan Corporation, Dabao Bounty Times Food Corporation, City Hall King Chow Foods Corporation, SGT Fortune Horse Corporation, at CYKT Inc. **[00:44:24.820] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para **[00:44:25.980] Atty. Karen S. Batu** po sa 2011, Dabao Emerging Taipan Corporation, Dabao Bounty Times Food Corporation, City Hall King Chow Foods Corporation, SGT Fortune Horse Corporation, CYKT Inc., at ang ZELTA Matiem Salon. **[00:44:44.220] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** ZELTA Matiem Salon. Okay, proceed for 2012. **[00:44:47.520] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2012 po, ito po yung Dabao Emerging Taipan Corporation, Dabao Bounty Times Food Corporation, City Hall King Chow Foods Corporation, SGT Fortune Horse Corporation, CYKT Inc., Three Kids Inc. at Celta Mathiem Salon. **[00:45:06.140] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay, salamat po. But just to be fair to the Vice President, dun po sa 2011, may nabanggit kayong nadagdag na Mathiem Salon. Who owns this, Madam Witness, if you know? **[00:45:19.720] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Incompetent, **[00:45:20.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Your Honor. It's stated in the document, Your Honor. If she knows, Counsel. Attorney Batu, you may answer if you know. **[00:45:26.190] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang nakalagay po dito sa SAL-N, ang pangalan po ay Manassas R. Carpio. Okay, **[00:45:31.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** so just to be fair to the Vice President, yung salon, hindi naman kay Vice President, kay Atty. Carpio yung salon na yun. **[00:45:38.310] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nakalagay po dito, sole proprietor po. **[00:45:41.190] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay, thank you. Sige. Doon naman sa SAL-N sa nabanggit nyo, ano naman po yung shares of stocks? Kung meron man. na dineklara ng Vice President in relation to those properties or business interests. **[00:46:13.020] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** For the record, Your Honor, the witness is intentively perusing the document, Your Honor. **[00:46:33.990] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa tatlong sal-ends po, wala pong dineclare si BP Sara. **[00:46:38.830] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At ano naman po yung dineklarang acquisition cost or puhunan nung mga negosyong ito? Medyo marami-rami rin na rin po, no? Ano po yung dineklarang puhunan ng Vice President sa mga negosyo na ito, kung meron man? **[00:46:51.820] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Base po dito sa tatlong SAL-Ns, wala pong nakadeclare na acquisition cost. **[00:46:56.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So similarly, may negosyo pero walang puhunan. Okay. Sige, I'll go now. Let's go to her second term as mayor. 2016, 2017, and 2018. With the assistance of our assisting lawyer. Okay, thank you. Sige po. Diyan naman po, ano yung mga dineklarang business interests? Vice President. Simulan muna tayo sa 2016 kasi medyo marami para hindi po kayo malito. Sa 2016 po, ano yung mga business interests or negosyo ng ating Vice President? **[00:47:28.820] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on the 2016 SAL-N, ito po yung mga naka-declare na business interests. Dabao New Royal Taipan Corporation, Dabao Bounty Times Food Corporation, Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, Times Square Bee Foods Corporation, SGT Fortune Horse Corporation, CYKT Inc., 3 Kids Inc. Tracking Services. **[00:47:54.990] Atty. Karen S. Batu** CYKT Inc. at Celta Mathiem Salon. **[00:47:58.090] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. **[00:48:00.190] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Parang may napansin akong bago dyan, Madam Witness, yung Times Square Bee Foods. Kailan po nakuha or kailan po nagkaroon ng negosyong Times Square Bee Foods Corporation ng ating Vice President? **[00:48:11.690] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Again, incompetent, Your Honor, and misleading. **[00:48:13.970] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Based on records, Your Honor, again. If she knows. Thank you po. **[00:48:17.890] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nakalagay po dito, date of acquisition of interest or connection, 2013. **[00:48:23.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So 2013 pa tong negosyo, base mismo kay Vice President, pero na-declare ito 2016, tama? **[00:48:29.830] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, apologies. I've been giving leeway to the Good Counsel for the prosecution, but after the witness answers, he seems to be interjecting conclusions of law and facts. After the witness answers, Your Honor, this is improper and not allowed, Your Honor. May we just request him to ask the question and let the witness answer? And then proceed with the examination. **[00:48:51.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** That's a reminder, counsel. Attorney James, that's a reminder, not an objection. Kindly, I would have sustained it if it were an objection. Kindly move on and ask the questions directly to the witness. **[00:49:04.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. We will gladly comply, Your Honor. Salamat. **[00:49:22.400] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Ano po yung negosyo ng ating Vice President based po sa SAL-N niya noong 2017? **[00:49:33.930] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2017, based on the SAL-N po na sinubmit ni Vice President, ito po yung Dabao New Royal Taipan Corporation, Dabao Bounty Times Food Corporation, Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, Times Square Bee Foods Corporation, CYKT Inc. Inc., Tapang at Malasakit Alliance for the Philippines Inc. Okay. **[00:49:58.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So how about 2018, Madam Witness? Ano po yung kanyang dineklarang negosyo sa SAL-N niya? **[00:50:09.150] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2018, based po sa submission ng SAL-N, naka-declare po yung Dabao New Royal Taipan Corporation, Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, Times Square Bee Foods Corporation, Tapang at Malasakit Alliance for the Philippines Inc. **[00:50:25.350] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay, how about for the business interest of her husband? Parang hindi ko po narinig na nabanggit niyo. Ano yung business interest nung husband niya nung 2018? Kung meron man. **[00:50:42.630] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa 2018 po, wala pong nakadeclare na business interest ni Atty. Manassas-Carpio. **[00:50:49.130] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So, pati yung **[00:50:49.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** nabanggit niyo kaninang salon, wala na dyan ngayon? **[00:50:53.080] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on the records po ng salon, wala po. **[00:50:55.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. So, for those years, Madam Witness, 2016, 2017 and 2018. Ano naman po yung shares of stocks na dineklaraan ng ating Vice President in relation to those various corporations that you've mentioned? If there are any. **[00:51:33.790] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on the records po ng tatlong salends, wala pong nakalagay na shares of stocks. **[00:51:39.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay po. Sige. At base dun po sa sinasabi nyo, ano naman po yung puhunan or acquisition costs ng mga kumpanyang nabanggit nyo kung meron man? **[00:51:53.430] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based po dito sa SAL and submissions, wala pong nakalagay na acquisition cost. Wala pong diniclare na acquisition cost. **[00:52:01.550] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Alright. I'm about to end my questioning on the baseline yung 2007 to 2021. But on the final note, puntahan natin yung 2019 to 2021 na SAL ends ng Vice President. I think this is her third term. Although hindi magkakasunod-sunod. Third term as Mayor of Davao City. Now, based Madam Witness sa SAL-Ns noong 2019 and 2020, what are her business interests based on her SAL-Ns? **[00:52:32.370] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For **[00:52:41.800] Atty. Karen S. Batu** 2019 and 2020 SAL-Ns, nag-declare po si VP Sara ng mga kumpanyang Dabao New Royal Taipan Corporation, Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, Times Square Bee Foods Corporation, at Tapang at Malasakit Alliance for the Philippines Incorporated. **[00:53:01.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about the business interests of Atty. Carpio, if there are any? Ano po yung nakadeklara dyan sa 2019 and 2020, kung meron man? **[00:53:14.800] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala pong din-declare si VP Sara for 2019 and 2020 SAL-Ns. **[00:53:20.200] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Maraming salamat Madam Witness. Last yung 2021 Madam Witness. Aside from what you mentioned, what are the business interests of the Vice President and her husband if any as declared in her SAL-N? **[00:53:41.590] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2021 SAL-N, ang nakalagay po dito na karagdagang kumpanya Listed as business interests, ito po yung Carpio Duterte Lawyers, Kale 88 Foods Corporation, 888 Bistro, Madayao Fisheries Inc. So **[00:54:01.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** ito po ang mga nadagdag. Kaninong negosyo po ulit ito? **[00:54:07.250] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Naka-declare po ito sa pangalan ni... Manassas, **[00:54:10.910] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Carpio. **[00:54:39.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Statements after the answer of the witness is stricken off from the record. Move on, counsel. Sige **[00:54:44.890] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** po. Salamat po. So, again, Madam Witness, what are the shares of stocks declared by the Vice President in the personal property portion of Dosal N in relation to her and her husband's business interests? If there are any, of course. **[00:55:25.670] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on the... Sa LN declarations, wala pong dineclare na shares of stocks si BP Sara. At **[00:55:34.500] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** magkano naman po? How much is the declared shares, sorry, cost of acquisition or yung puhunan niya para doon sa mga businesses na nabanggit po ninyo for 2019, 2020, at 2021? **[00:55:50.650] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on the sale and submissions, wala pong nakadeclare na acquisition costs. **[00:55:55.110] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Maraming salamat Madam Witness for your patience and forbearance. Now let's go to 2022 and this time the Vice President has been elected as our Vice President. But before we proceed Your Honor, just again a matter of mandatory judicial notice. Under Section 13 of Article 7 of the Constitution which is Flash for ease of reference of the members of the Honorable Court. And I'll just quote the pertinent portions, Your Honor, for our testimony today that the President, Vice President, and members of the Cabinet and other deputies or assistants shall not, unless otherwise provided in this Constitution, hold any other office or employment during their tenure. They shall not, during said tenure, directly or indirectly practice any other profession, participate in any business, or be financially interested in any contract. Madam Witness, let's go to the 2022 SAL-N of the Vice President. Parehas na tanong, Madam Witness, and I'm sorry that my questions are patterned but that's precisely what we're trying to establish here. SAL-N for 2022. What are the Vice President's business and financial interests for 2022 based on her own declarations? **[00:57:20.690] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For the 2022 SAL-Ns, ito po yung mga nakalagay, nakadeclare na mga business interests. Dabao New Royal Taipan Corporation, Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, Times Square Bee Foods Corporation, at Tapang at Malasakit Alliance for the Philippines Inc. **[00:57:40.950] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. How about for her spouse, Atty. Carpio? Ano yung mga na-declare akong meron man? **[00:57:49.160] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Naka-declare po yung Carpio Duterte Lawyers, Kale 88 Foods Corporation, 888 Bistro, at Madayaw Fisheries Incorporated. **[00:57:59.620] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige. Doon sa 2023 SAL-Ns naman po, Madam Witness, aside from what you just stated, what are the other business interests, if any, of the Vice President? and her husband, as declared in the 2023 SAL-N. **[00:58:16.640] Atty. Karen S. Batu** 2022? **[00:58:18.120] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2023. **[00:58:20.440] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I just have to compare. **[00:58:31.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, for the record, the witness is comparing the 2022 and 2023 SAL-N in response to my question, what other business interests, if any, did the Vice President Duterte declare, aside from what she already mentioned a while ago? **[00:58:46.580] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2023 SAL-Ns, Aside from dun sa mga nabanggit ko sa 2022, salin, eto po yung mga nadagdag. Yung Mati City Ice Plant and Cold Storage, Inc., Amianan Shores, Inc., Geometry Security and Investigation Agency, Inc. Okay. **[00:59:07.210] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. Salamat. Para mabilis tayo, Madam Witness, tignan na rin natin yung 2024 at 2025. What business interests, if any, did the Vice President declare in her SAL-N for 2024? **[00:59:25.480] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2024 SAL-N, naka-declare po sa SAL-N ng ating Vice President ang business interests na Metro City Chow Foods Corporation, GenCorp Industries Inc., Carpio Lawyers, formerly Carpio Duterte, 888 Bistro, Kale 88 Foods Corporation, Madayaw Fisheries Corporation, Mati City Ice Plant and Cold Storage Inc., Amianan Shores Inc., Geometry Security and Investigation Agency Inc., Cable Tow 88 Shipping and Marine Services Inc. Okay. **[01:00:08.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At base po sa SAL-N noong 2024 at 2025, ano po yung shares of stocks na dineklara ng ating Vice President in relation to the companies that you just mentioned? **[01:00:43.380] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on the 2024 and 2025 SAL-N, wala pong naka-declare na shares of stocks. **[01:00:50.540] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At magkano po yung puhunan, kung meron ma, na dineklarahan ng ating Vice President para doon sa various business interests na meron siya? **[01:00:59.820] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Before that, Your Honor, with the indulgence of this Court. **[01:01:02.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, **[01:01:03.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Justin. **[01:01:04.240] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** We will have to object to these lines of questioning, particularly on the word puhunan, Your Honor, as the Council has been misleading, as he has been... Making it seem that puhunan is equivalent to acquisition cost, Your Honor. We just like to clarify for the record that puhunan is capital, Your Honor, and not capital investment and not acquisition cost, Your Honor. **[01:01:25.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Duly noted. The Chair agrees with the distinction. Iba ang puhunan sa acquisition cost. **[01:01:34.060] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And another one, Your Honor, and this is precisely why we objected to the flashing of laws, Your Honor. Earlier, when the Good Counsel for the Prosecution cited Section 13, he actually stopped in the words financially interested in any contract. However, as lawyers, we need to be... fully candid to the court because that phrase is continued or in any franchise or special privilege granted by the government or any subdivision agency or instrumentality thereof including government-owned or controlled corporations or their subsidiaries your honor yes there is a there is an important distinction your honor um **[01:02:13.530] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** your honor at this point um we're not we're not going to tally with the defense in fact we agree that I did not read the rest because I wanted to make it fast, Your Honor. Di na po issue ito kasi nabasa naman po ito ng ating mga members of the Honorable Court. So, may we just proceed, Your Honor? **[01:02:31.580] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And pardon, Your Honor, if this is not an issue, Your Honor, then the counsel should not be reading portions of the law which he admitted he did not read, Your Honor. Now, we have been giving leeway to the prosecution and we have objected to the addition of manifestations in relation to the law which clearly This honorable court is the only one capable of and is duty bound to construe. Now, if they are going to cite the law, they must at least be candid and cite it fully, Your Honor. **[01:02:57.400] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, this appears to be an oral argument. Now we're here to present the witness. May we just proceed, Your Honor? We're not arguing with the other counsel, Your Honor. **[01:03:05.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The comments of Attorney Justin are noted and well taken. Counsel, proceed accordingly. Thank **[01:03:10.420] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** you, Your Honor. **[01:03:14.770] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I'm not sure if you were able to answer my last question so just let me ask it again. Based on the SAL-Ns of the Vice President from 2024 to 2025 and in relation to the various business interests that you've mentioned, what is the acquisition cost? As the presiding officer said, kapital na nakadeklara sa kanyang SAL-N. **[01:03:45.230] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Capital, Your Honor. Can we just **[01:03:46.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** use acquisition cost? May nakalagay pong acquisition cost? Attorney Karen? **[01:03:53.650] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based po dito sa 2024 and 2025, Sal, and wala pong nakalagay na acquisition cost, Your Honor. Okay. **[01:04:01.870] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Salamat po. Sige, Madam Witness. Maraming salamat po sa patience niyo. Ngayon gusto ko namang pag-usapan yung cash declarations ng ating Vice President. But before that, How long have you been with the Office of the Ombudsman again? **[01:04:18.760] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Since 2010. **[01:04:20.260] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2010. Prior to that, saan po kayo nagtrabaho? **[01:04:24.500] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I've worked for the Bureau of Fire Protection since from 2003 to 2009. **[01:04:31.140] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So from 2003 up to the present, you have been a public officer? **[01:04:36.580] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[01:04:37.400] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And as public officer, familiar kayo sa SALN, tama po? **[01:04:40.760] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[01:04:41.720] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At... Kayo mismo yung nag-fill up nung SAL-N yun. Tama po. **[01:04:45.380] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[01:04:46.220] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At doon po sa SAL-N, kindly correct me if I'm wrong, meron pong personal property portion. Tama po. **[01:04:54.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[01:04:55.240] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So base po doon sa experience nyo, 2003, 2026, ano ba yan? Mahina ko sa mati. 22, 23? **[01:05:03.700] Atty. Karen S. Batu** 23. **[01:05:04.280] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 23 years. Base po sa karanasan nyo for 23 years as a public officer, ano po ba yung nilalagay sa Personal properties portion ng SAL-N. **[01:05:18.840] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Objection, Your Honor. Speculative. And vague, Your Honor. **[01:05:22.050] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** We've laid the foundation, Your Honor, given her 23 years. And in fact, she is coming from the office of the Ombudsman. With your kind permission, please. **[01:05:29.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If she knows, counsel, Attorney Karen, you may **[01:05:32.150] Atty. Karen S. Batu** answer **[01:05:32.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** if you know. **[01:05:34.090] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on my own submission of SAL-N, ang nilalagay ko po sa personal properties is yung sasakyan. **[01:05:45.880] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Mga ibang kagamitan, mga appliances kung meron man, mga jewelries, and yung cash on hand and cash in bank. **[01:05:54.780] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige. Doon sa cash on hand at cash on bank, paano niyo po dinideclare itong cash on hand at cash on bank? **[01:06:03.970] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ako personally, nagdideclare po ako ng cash on hand. **[01:06:11.120] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Kung ano yung hawak ko as of December 31 of that year. And then pagdating po sa cash in bank, kung ano po yung balance ko noong December 31 of that year. **[01:06:24.440] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And how specific are you when you declare that? **[01:06:29.520] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Well, **[01:06:30.040] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** it's for an opinion, Your Honor. **[01:06:31.360] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And relevance, Your Honor. What **[01:06:32.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** is the relevance **[01:06:33.420] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** of this? **[01:06:33.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, counsel. Move on to your next point. We've given you enough leeway with respect to the salon of Attorney Karen, which has no relation to this particular issue. I just **[01:06:47.820] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** got curious with my own line of questioning, Your Honor. Sorry, sorry. **[01:06:50.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly move on, counsel. **[01:06:52.630] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. Sabi ko sa inyo nga, Madam Witness, pag-usapan natin yung cash on hand or cash in bank ng ating Vice President. **[01:07:04.560] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Let's go to her 2007 SAL-N. Magkano po, base sa dokumento ng opisina ninyo, ang cash declaration ng ating Vice President? **[01:07:16.970] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2007 SAL-N, nag-declare po si VP Sara na cash on hand and bank, 2 million pesos. **[01:07:25.750] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about 2008? **[01:07:36.010] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2008, nag-declare po ng parehong amount si BP Sara na 2,000,000 pesos. **[01:07:44.250] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about 2009? **[01:07:57.210] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2009, ang declaration po na cash on hand bank ay 2,800,000 pesos. **[01:08:05.470] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about 2010? **[01:08:07.410] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para **[01:08:19.040] Atty. Karen S. Batu** po sa 2010, ang declaration po na cash on hand bank ay 3,661,622 pesos. **[01:08:29.270] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about 2011? **[01:08:40.370] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2011, ang naka-declare na cash on hand bank ni BP Sara ay 3,931,125 pesos and 80 centavos. **[01:08:53.490] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about 2012? **[01:09:03.240] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2012 po ang naka-declare na cash on hand bank ay 4,320,532 pesos. **[01:09:12.780] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about 2016? **[01:09:27.780] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2016, ang naka-declare na cash on hand bank ay 3,750,760 pesos. **[01:09:37.380] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about 2017? And I'm almost done, Madam Witness, so I beg your indulgence. **[01:09:47.050] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2017, the declared cash on hand bank by the Vice President is Php 6 **[01:09:53.370] Atty. Karen S. Batu** ,368,596 **[01:09:59.290] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2018 **[01:10:04.530] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** po, ano po yung naka-declare? **[01:10:08.910] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2018, ang naka-declare po na cash ay Php 3,795,000 Sige po. **[01:10:17.310] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yung next po ay **[01:10:20.120] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2018. Next slide. **[01:10:21.820] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2019. Ano po yung cash declaration ng 2019 ng ating Vice President? Kung meron man. **[01:10:34.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2019 po, wala pong dineclare na cash on hand or in bank si BP Sara. **[01:10:40.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about for 2020? **[01:10:51.840] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ganun din po. For sale and 2020, wala pong nakadeclare na cash on hand or in bank. **[01:10:57.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige. To expedite the proceedings so that we can... Finish this, Madam Witness. Tuloy na lang po natin. Onwards, ano po yung cash declaration nung ating Vice President after 2020? **[01:11:11.440] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Kung **[01:11:12.290] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** meron man. **[01:12:00.900] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For SALNs 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025, wala pong nakadeclare na cash on hand or in bank. **[01:12:13.420] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. Sige. Madam Witness, I... Out of curiosity, I recall an interview before that cash can be, I think that the interview was one of the good counsels from the defense, na yung cash ay pwedeng ilump sa other personal properties. I'm not going to ask if that's allowed or not, but what I want to know, based on the silence of the Vice President from 2019, ano yung mga dideklara niya ang other personal properties? Simulan natin sa 2019, nung mga panahon wala na po siyang nadeklara, based sa testimony ninyo. Cash. Ano po yung others or other personal properties ng Vice President sa 2019 base sa kanyang sariling SAL-N? **[01:12:57.800] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Objection, Your Honor. Misleading. The good counsel premises question na nawala na siyang nadeklara, Your Honor. That would be misleading, Your Honor. It had no particular reference to any matter and there was no basis, Your Honor. It's misleading. **[01:13:11.920] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I **[01:13:12.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** presume she's referring to cash on hand. **[01:13:15.740] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. **[01:13:18.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Witness will answer based on that, please. Thank **[01:13:20.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** you po. **[01:13:20.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If you know, if you know, Attorney Karen. **[01:13:23.430] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So again, Madam Witness, noong 2019, ano na po yung ano po yung nakadeklara na other personal properties or others ng Vice President based sa kanyang SAL-ED? **[01:13:37.800] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For Sal-N 2019, nakadeclare po yung other personal properties, various items. Isa pa ulit, other personal properties, various items. **[01:13:50.650] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about for Atty. Carpio? What is the declaration based on her Sal-N of other personal properties, if there are any? **[01:14:00.040] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po kay Atty. Manassas Carpio, ang nakadeclare po dito ay other personal properties. **[01:14:08.010] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At magkano po yung nakadeklara sa other personal properties ni Atty. Carp? Yung kung meron man. **[01:14:13.450] Atty. Karen S. Batu** 3,500,000 pesos. **[01:14:17.370] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** For 2020, Madam Witness, para po mas mabilis, pwede niyo pong sagutin ito. Ano po yung nakadeklara ang other personal properties ng Vice President, based sa kanyang salen, at nung kanyang asawa, kung meron man? **[01:14:31.910] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nakadeclare po na... Other personal properties, various items. At isa pa ulit, other personal properties, various items. At magkano po? Para po sa unang other personal properties, ito po ay nakadeklara na nagkakahalaga ng 2,250,000. At sa pangalawang other personal properties, ito po ay nakadeklara na nagkakahalaga ng 3,000,000 pesos. **[01:14:58.510] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about for Atty. Carpio, kung meron? **[01:15:03.700] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nakalagay po, Para kay Atty. Manasa-Scarpio, other personal properties, ito po ay nagkakahalaga ng 3,500,000 pesos. **[01:15:15.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about for 2021? How much did the Vice President declare, if there are any, corresponding to her other personal properties and that of her husband, if there are any of course? **[01:15:31.820] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa 2021 SAL-N, nakadeclare po dalawang other personal properties, parehong various items. Nagkakahalaga po ito ng isang 2,250,000 at isang 3,000,000 pesos. **[01:15:49.180] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yung kay Atty. Carpe po, magkano kung meron? **[01:15:53.160] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nakadeclare po sa SAL-N na other personal properties. **[01:15:58.490] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nagkakahalaga ng 8,075,000 pesos. **[01:16:02.110] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** For 2023, and I'm really sorry that we're going over this at medyo matagal, but I hope you understand. For 2023, ano naman po yung other personal properties or how much is the other personal properties that were declared by the Vice President corresponding to her other personal properties and that of her husband? **[01:16:25.230] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2023 SAL-N, nakalagay po dito yung other personal properties. Ito po ay nagkakahalaga ng 6,650,000. Para po kay Atty. Manasseh-Scarpio, nakadeclare po yung other personal properties. Nagkakahalaga din po ito ng 8,075,000 pesos. **[01:16:44.930] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Last two years po, Madam Witness. For 2024, how much is declared if there are any? Corresponding to the other personal properties of the Vice President and her husband. **[01:17:17.610] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Various na nagkakahalaga ng Php 8 **[01:17:19.930] Atty. Karen S. Batu** ,671,875 At for others, nakadeclare po ang halagang Php 6,633,340.02 And **[01:17:36.270] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** lastly for 2025, magkano po kung meron man yung other personal properties ng ating Vice President at ng kanyang asawa? **[01:17:46.350] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa sale ng 2025, nakadeclare po na others ang halagang 16,202,290 pesos and 20 centavos. Para po kay Atty. Manassas R. Carpio, nakadeclare po yung amount na bar use na 2,100,010 pesos. **[01:18:11.690] Atty. Karen S. Batu** At para po sa others, nakadeclare po ang amount na P10,857,186. Sige **[01:18:19.630] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** po. Maraming salamat and I thank your patience, Madam Witness. Kung gusto niyo pong uminom ng tubig, may tubig po dyan. **[01:18:25.210] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Thank you. **[01:18:25.670] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. I'm on to my last line of questioning, Madam Witness. Now I want to talk about the net worth of the Vice President. So again, just based on your records. Sige, inumpo muna kayo. **[01:18:40.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So just based on your records po, kindly look at 2007. **[01:18:46.000] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** The SALN of the Vice President in 2007, the first year she entered elective public office. Magkano po ang nakadeklarang net worth or yaman ng ating Vice President in 2007? **[01:19:00.450] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang nakadeklar po na net worth po ng ating Vice President for the SALN 2007, Ito po ay declared as 7,250,497 pesos. **[01:19:14.930] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How about in 2008? And I promise to be very quick after this. How about in 2008? What is the declared net worth of the Vice President in 2008 after one year in public office? **[01:19:28.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2008, the declared net worth is 18,493,616 pesos and 65 centavos. **[01:19:39.740] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay, so tama po Madam Witness, no? After one year lang sa public office, sobra doble na yung tinaas ng kanyang net worth based on the records only. **[01:19:47.860] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Again, Your Honor, we move to strike those statements, Your Honor. Objection to those statements. **[01:19:51.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel, you already know, kindly move on. So stricken. **[01:19:56.460] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** We'll comply, Your Honor. Salamat po. Thank **[01:19:58.600] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** you, Your Honor. **[01:20:00.660] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. 2009, Madam Witness, and let's go quickly. 2009, how much is the net worth or ano ba yung tagalog ng net worth? **[01:20:12.830] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yaman Ano po ba yung net worth or yaman ng Vice President in 2008? **[01:20:34.710] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I've given leeway to the good counsel and I've complied with all his requests. But I don't think that the good counsel can muzzle or gag the prosecution. Short of any improper or any offensive matter that I may have said, there's nothing so far. So may I just ask the good counsel, Your Honor, to allow me to ask the questions? **[01:20:53.510] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** A brief response, Your Honor. When they allow the witness to testify, Your Honor, they stated that the witness will be identifying the documents. Now here comes the counsel from prosecution. I am not done. And here comes the counsel from prosecution, using words that are outside the document themselves. That is why, precisely, we are asking, gently and respectfully, that they just use the document as used in the document, Your Honor. I **[01:21:20.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** also cannot translate net worth, counsel. **[01:21:24.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Your Honor, apologies. Ang pinakamalapit na sigurong pagsasalin sa wikang Pilipino, kabuoang pagmamayari. which presumes binawas na yung utang. **[01:21:37.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. And I apologize, Your Honor. It was not the intention of the prosecution to use the word. As I mentioned, Your Honor, I'm from Mindanao so I'm not really particular. **[01:21:45.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let's use **[01:21:46.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** net worth then in the absence of an agreed Tagalog or Filipino translation. **[01:21:51.000] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Thank you, Your Honor. **[01:21:51.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Please proceed, Attorney James. **[01:21:53.280] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Salamat po. We'll comply accordingly, Your Honor. Thank you. Sige po, **[01:21:57.090] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Madam Witness. I think I was in **[01:21:59.970] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** the year 2010. How much? What is **[01:22:03.080] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** the net worth of the vice president in 2010 based on her own declarations? **[01:22:09.420] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2010, the declared net worth is 16,242,886 pesos and 65 centavos. **[01:22:20.040] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So, okay. 2012 po, sorry, 2011. What is the net worth of the vice president? **[01:22:28.160] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2011, the declared net worth... is 14,271,148 pesos and 45 centavos. **[01:22:39.390] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2012, **[01:22:41.910] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Madam Witness. **[01:22:47.710] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2012, ang net worth po ay 22,116,101 pesos and 93 centavos. Okay, **[01:22:57.870] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** so how about 2016? Ano po yung net worth nung ating Vice President? **[01:23:04.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2016, the net worth is P34,895,997. **[01:23:14.820] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** 2017, ano po yung kanyang net worth? **[01:23:22.530] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2017, declared net worth is P44,828,759. **[01:23:31.770] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** How **[01:23:32.470] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** about in 2018? What is the Vice President's net worth? **[01:23:43.370] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2018, the declared net worth of the Vice President is Php 49 **[01:23:49.690] Atty. Karen S. Batu** ,699,728. How **[01:23:54.690] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** about in 2019? What is the net worth of the Vice President? **[01:24:08.530] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2019, it's 55,613,051 pesos. **[01:24:15.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** For **[01:24:15.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the guidance, with the indulgence of Attorney James, for the guidance of the Senator-Judges as well as the public who may be viewing, yung mga taon pong nakalagay sa bandang kaliwa in 2007 hanggang 2019, yan po yung taon nung SAL-N, pero finile po yung SAL-N sa susunod na taon. So ang SALN po ng 2008 ay tungkol po sa 2007 niyang yaman. Ang SALN po ng 2009 final ay SALN niya o yaman niya noong 2008 or the year previous. Dahil ang SALN po, fina-file the following year, ika-30 ng Abril, kaugnay sa kabuang yaman ng sino mang opisyal as of December 31 of the previous year. Just for clarification, so itong table mo, Attorney James, yung mga taong nasa kaliwa, yan yung taon talaga nung kabuha ang yaman niya? **[01:25:10.960] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. Just to clarify, Your Honor, when we say 2007, that pertains to her SAL-N, 2007 but was filed in 2008. **[01:25:20.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Exactly. **[01:25:20.680] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** But as of December 31, **[01:25:22.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** 2007, **[01:25:23.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** as **[01:25:24.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you **[01:25:24.700] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** eloquently put, Your Honor. **[01:25:26.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** As stated by the Presiding Officer. Okay, proceed, Counsel. **[01:25:28.840] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Maraming salamat po. 2020. 2020, Madam Witness, ano po yung net worth or kabuoang net worth ng ating Vice President noong 2020? **[01:25:44.950] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Kabuoang halaga. Netong halaga. As per corrected by the Honorable Senator Lacson. **[01:25:54.180] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2020 SAL-N, the declared net worth is P56,583,735.10. **[01:26:05.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige **[01:26:06.520] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** po. Sa 2021, what is the net worth or netong halaga ng ating Vice President? Kung meron man po. **[01:26:15.840] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2021 SAL-N, the declared net worth of the Vice President is P65,308,841. **[01:26:25.880] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So **[01:26:26.680] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** prior to her election as Vice President, she started with 2007 corresponding to 7,250,497. And in 2021, this is now 65,308,841. And this forms part of our baseline. Punta na natin ngayon yung 2022 ng ating Vice President. Magkano na po ang net worth or netong halaga ng ating vice president in 2022? **[01:27:01.410] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2022, SALN, the declared net worth of the vice president is 71,658,841 pesos. **[01:27:12.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And **[01:27:13.230] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** in 2023, magkano na po or how much is the net worth of the vice president in 2023? **[01:27:21.560] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2023, ang naka-declare po na net worth ng ating Vice President ay 77,508,841 pesos. **[01:27:34.740] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay, in 2024, and I'm almost done Madam Witness, Your Honors. In 2024, what is the net worth or netong halaga, and I'm starting to like that word, netong halaga ng ating Vice President in 2023? **[01:27:53.200] Atty. Karen S. Batu** 2023? 2024? **[01:27:55.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sorry, 2024. **[01:27:56.940] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2024, ang nakalagay po na net worth ng ating Vice President ay 88,512,370 pesos and 22 centavos. **[01:28:10.140] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And **[01:28:10.320] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** lastly, Madam Witness, currently, what is the net worth or netong halaga ng ating Vice President in 2025? **[01:28:20.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For the year 2025, the declared net worth of the Vice President is Php **[01:28:26.300] Atty. Karen S. Batu** 98,656,131.20. **[01:28:32.640] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. **[01:28:33.200] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And my last question, Madam Witness. I hope this is the last question. 2007, Madam Witness, we started at Php 7 million based on your testimony. Php 7 **[01:28:41.460] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** ,250,497. And in all the years of the Vice President, Umakyat na ngayon sa 98 million ang kanyang net worth habang siya ay naggo-gobyerno. Tama po ba based sa testimony niyo? **[01:28:58.430] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based po dun sa mga binasa kong SALN, yun po yung halagang naka-declare sa kanyang mga sinubmit na SALN sa Office of the Ombudsman. **[01:29:07.650] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sige po. Madam Witness, maraming salamat po sa inyong pasensya. Your Honors, I thank your patience and forbearance for allowing me to ask those questions. That would conclude my direct examination, Your Honor. **[01:29:18.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Would you like to already cross, Attorney Justin, or cross after lunch? **[01:29:23.270] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** May we request that we be allowed to conduct it after lunch, Your Honor. **[01:29:26.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay, you may do so. In the meantime, we will try to make use of the time by allowing the Senator-Judges to make their interjections. The first stand I see raising subject to Annika's clearance would be Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo. You're recognized, sir. You have two minutes. Unless Annika has a subsequent list, kindly give it to me. **[01:29:51.980] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Maraming salamat po ginong presiding officer. Madam Witness, ang para po sa kalay- **[01:30:04.160] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Ang SAL-N po ba dapat ay official lang mismong sasagot o pwede siyang mag-appoint ng accountant ng sino man para gawin ang SAL-N niya tapos ito ay susumpaan niya na lamang po sa isang notaryo? Pwede po ba ito o hindi pwede? **[01:30:26.050] Atty. Karen S. Batu** That will call for an opinion, Your Honor. Pero ako po, I can only answer as to my own experience. Ako po yung nagpiprepare ng sarili kong salin. **[01:30:35.950] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Ah, okay. So iba-iba. Moving forward, labag po ba sa batas kung sa inyong experience as record holder, OIC po kayo, tama po ba? **[01:30:49.030] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[01:30:50.210] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Labag ba sa batas kung tumaas ang salin ng opisyal? Ma'am? **[01:30:57.030] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa **[01:30:57.620] Atty. Karen S. Batu** akin pong palagay po, nagkakaroon po talaga tayo ng increase sa ating mga SAL-Ns. **[01:31:05.680] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Tama **[01:31:06.240] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** po. Kunwari, paano kung may binenta siyang property or ariyan o ay kumita po yung kanyang negosyo? Is that possible, ma'am? Or kailangan niyang i-declare na yun para makita ba sa SAL-N yun? **[01:31:24.070] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on my experience din po, Your Honor, pag kasi may binenta kang property, magre-reflect siya dun sa ibang party ng SAL-N mo, but mariremove siya sa iyong mga other properties for say personal property or real property. **[01:31:42.510] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Okay. Ma'am, bihira po ba sa SAL-N na walang cash on hand declaration? **[01:31:50.400] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Ano po ba ang sinasabi ng batas? Kayo po ay abogado. What does it mean when you say cash on hand? Ito po ba ay pera na hawak mo sa kamay, pera mo sa bahay, o pera mo sa bangko? What is it? **[01:32:04.720] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Again, Your Honor, this is just my opinion because I'm not an expert pagdating po dyan sa mga... SALN. As I said po, the office of the Central Records Division is merely a repository of SALNs. But based on my experience po in accomplishing my own SALN, yung cash on hand po, I interpreted it as mga cash po na hawak ko at my disposal po. Nasa bulsa ko, nasa pitaka ko, nasa bahay ko. **[01:32:43.990] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Okay. Pwede **[01:32:45.010] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** rin sa alcancea o **[01:32:46.070] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** sa banko? **[01:32:46.890] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yung cash in bank po, yun po yung mga nasa banko na nakadeposito. **[01:32:52.750] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Alright. So, kailangan kung may, when you are ikang accomplishing yung SAL-N mo, dapat tignan mo yung pitaka mo o sa vault mo kung may pera ka o wala. Paano kung at that very moment, eh wala ka pong pera. At that very moment, you're accomplishing your SAL-N. **[01:33:14.210] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Pwede naman po talagang mangyari yun na kung at the end of the year, December 31, wala ka po talagang hawak na pera sa bahay, pwede po talagang zero yung declaration mo. **[01:33:27.430] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Oo po, kasi nagkatatapos na ng Pasko, di po ba? Anyway ma'am, paano po kung questionable ba kung tumaas yung SAL-N niya? Dapat mo ba magduda? Paano kung yung kanyang magulang binigyan po siya ng mana o yung kanyang asawa, negosyante, o ito honey or sweetheart, o anak, ito ang 5 million, 10 million, inideklara mo pa rin yun? Tama po ba? **[01:33:55.390] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based po sa konting nalalaman ko at sarili kong interpretation po, pag may mga donation po na properties, kailangan po din yun ideclare at ang mode of acquisition po ay donation. **[01:34:09.550] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** All right. Thank you, Ms. Witness. Presiding Officer, thank you, sir. **[01:34:13.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. While waiting for other Senator-Judges, the Presiding Officer has some interjections. Attorney Karen, tinanong kayo kanina kung magkano yung acquisition cost ng mga korporasyon. Tama po ba? **[01:34:27.050] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[01:34:28.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pakituro naman sa akin kung saan nakalagay yung blanco sa acquisition cost sa SALEN. Kindly show her the SALEN, Sir Lerson. **[01:34:43.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Meron po bang nakalaan na blanco para sa acquisition cost sa business interest? **[01:34:56.780] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa business interest and financial connections, wala **[01:35:08.760] Atty. Karen S. Batu** pong nakalagay na acquisition cost, Your Honor. **[01:35:12.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sinabi niyo po yan kanina, pero ang tanong ko, yung form po ba, may nakalaan bang blanco para sa acquisition cost? **[01:35:21.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tama po yung sagot niyo kanina na walang nakalagay na acquisition cost, pero... May nakalagay po bang blanco para sa acquisition cost sa form? **[01:35:30.030] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa assets, sa real properties and personal other properties. Ang **[01:35:34.290] Atty. Karen S. Batu** pinag-uusapan po **[01:35:35.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** natin, business. **[01:35:36.390] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa business po, Your Honor, wala pong nakalagay na acquisition cost. **[01:35:40.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, hindi po hinihiling ng SAL and FORM na ilagay ang acquisition cost? **[01:35:47.940] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Pagdating po sa business interest and financial connections, Your Honor. **[01:35:53.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tama nga po yung sagot niyo. Walang nakalagay na acquisition cost pero hindi rin po kasi hinihiling sa SAL-N na ilagay yung acquisition cost ng business interest. Tama po ba? Dahil kung gusto niyo pong ilagay, saan niyo po lalagay? **[01:36:08.300] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang tanong, if I may clarify your honor, ang pagkakaintindi ko po sa tanong sa akin kanina ni Atty. James is **[01:36:22.690] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Unang tanong po niya kasi is kung merong nakadeclare sa personal properties na stocks. **[01:36:28.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi po. Yung unang bahagi ng tanong ay kaugnay sa acquisition cost ng business interest ng stock ng shareholdings. So, wala pong nakalagay. Tama po yun. Hindi po kayo nagsabi ng hindi totoo. Pero para klaruhin lang po natin, wala rin naman pong puwang, blanco, table, parte. **[01:36:55.150] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa mga business interests and financial connections, your honor, wala pong nakalagay na para sa acquisition costs. **[01:37:13.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa inyong tanggapan sa Luzon, Visayas at Mindanao, sa local officials, gayon din sa President at Vice President. Tama po ba? **[01:37:19.720] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[01:37:21.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ano po yung inyong **[01:37:23.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** review and compliance procedure kung meron man bilang repository ng salen ng Pangulo, ikalawang Pangulo at mga head ng executive agencies? **[01:37:36.600] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang Review and Compliance Committee po usually is sa mga head of the agencies po. Tapos sinasubmit na lang po nila sa Office of the Ombudsman as the repository agency. **[01:37:49.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi po kayo yan? **[01:37:50.420] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi po kami yan. **[01:37:51.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa loob po ng Office of the Ombudsman meron po kayong Compliance and Review Committee? **[01:37:55.780] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Para po sa mga empleyado ng Ombudsman, Your Honor, meron po. **[01:37:59.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ano po yung alam niyong procedure kaugnay nun? **[01:38:02.000] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Nire-review po siya as to the form, usually, Your Honor. Kung **[01:38:05.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** sumunod o hindi? **[01:38:06.880] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Apo. **[01:38:07.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, pag hindi po sumunod, papadalan presumably ng notification iyong empleyado na, Hoy, may hindi ka finilapan o Hoy, mali yung pagkaka-fill up mo. Gano 'n **[01:38:18.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** po ba yan? **[01:38:19.560] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa amin po, based on my experience, Your Honor, binalik po yung SAL-N at sinabi kung ano yung mga kailangang pil-upan or kung mali yung form na nagamit. **[01:38:29.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Lumipas na po ang April 30, binalik yung SAL-N. Ang sabihin na natin, Hunyo, pwede pong i-correct pa rin siya ng empleyado. **[01:38:41.820] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Pagdating po sa amin, Your Honor, April 30, ang submission po kasi based... Siyempre, **[01:38:49.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** doon po lang po nakita ng compliance interview committee niyo, di ba? Pag-submit. E din nakita niyo may kulang. Babalik niyo po. Sabi niyo nga po, di ba? Iko-correct niya. So sabihin natin, nabalik ng May 1, May 2. **[01:39:04.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pwede po niya i-correct yun, di ba? **[01:39:06.670] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. Kasi doon po sa SALN guidelines namin nakalagay na we still have until June 30 to submit the... SALNs to the repository agency. **[01:39:19.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** To **[01:39:19.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the repository agency? **[01:39:21.590] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po. **[01:39:22.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa ibig sabihin po nun, pag na-submit na po kasi sa repository, hindi na po pwedeng baguhin. Di ba yun ang nakalagay sa Civil Service Memorandum Circular? **[01:39:32.590] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[01:39:34.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pero nakalagay din dun sa parehong GS Memorandum Circular ng Civil Service, pwedeng i-correct ng deklarant yung SALN niya. Sa susunod na taon, hindi po ba? **[01:39:47.790] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang requirement **[01:39:49.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** lang po is as long as it is based on honest mistake and or good faith. **[01:39:54.230] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor. **[01:39:57.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Nagkamali ako ng deklarasyon ko ng 2025. **[01:40:01.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** May nasulat ako mali doon. Sa susunod na taon, 2026, pag-file ko sa 2027, pwede ko i-correct yun. **[01:40:09.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Pwede **[01:40:10.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** po ba yan? **[01:40:11.030] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Again, Your Honor, I am not an expert as the Central Records Division is merely a repository of the records. **[01:40:19.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, but **[01:40:19.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** since you're a repository, you're aware the Vice President corrected herself and twice. **[01:40:25.010] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2025 po, meron po siyang sinadmit na amendment. **[01:40:29.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Actually, sa pagkakaalam ko, noong 2017 may sinadmit siyang amendment for 2016. **[01:40:37.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa 2016 sa ala niya at noong 2020 nag-submit siya ng pagbabago sa 2019 sa ala niya. That should be in your records, correct? **[01:40:45.690] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang nakalagay lang po na check po namin is for the 2025 po kasi after doong submission ng May medyo po ulit dumating noong June na amendment po. **[01:40:56.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So ang alam nyo lang po yung 2025 correction? **[01:40:59.190] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. Ang ginagawa po kasi namin, Your Honor, basta yung mga SAL-Ns po, tinatanggap po namin yan basta sinubmit sa amin. **[01:41:07.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, you're saying based on your record, walang corrected SAL-N na sinubmit si Vice President Sara nung 2020 kaugnay sa 2019 SAL-N niya? **[01:41:19.430] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on our records, Your Honor, yun po yung mga SAL-Ns na sinubmit niya, yung mga binigay po namin sa House of Representatives. **[01:41:26.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, wala nga po kayong kopya nung dalawang SAL-N niya for 2019. Isang sinubmit ng June, isang sinubmit ng August 2020. **[01:41:39.330] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on our records po, yun lang po yung mga SAL-Ns na meron. Kung meron pong ibang SAL-N, wala po kaming nakita sa records namin. **[01:41:48.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Gayun din po sa SAL-N ng 2016, wala po kayong corrected SAL-N ng 2017 na sidabmit makalipas ang isang buwan ng April 30. Wala rin po. So tigitigisang SAL-N lang po sa lahat ng taon maliban sa 2025. **[01:42:03.480] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Meron pong ibuy your honor na parang kasi may exit SAL-N, so parang may dumoble. May exit SAL-N siya. **[01:42:12.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ano pong ibig sabihin ng exit **[01:42:13.980] Atty. Karen S. Batu** salen, ma'am? Parang nung matapos po yung term niya sa government for that year, nagsubmit siya ng salen niya. **[01:42:20.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ginawa lang po yun noong June 30, ma'am, 2022. Dahil may bago po siyang posisyon, so kailangan niya magsubmit ng salen niya as of June 30, 2022. Matapos siyang mahalal bilang vicepresidente, nagsubmit po siya ng August 2022. Nagsubmit uli siya ng April... **[01:42:41.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** 2023, kaugnay sa December 31, 2022, SAL-N niya. Yun po yung taon na dalawa talaga ang sinabit niya. Hindi po yun yung correction na sinasabi ko. **[01:42:50.200] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Opo. Pero based on our records, Your Honor, yun po yung dalawang, may dalawang SAL-N siya. **[01:42:55.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yung ibang corrected po, wala na. **[01:42:59.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yung ibang corrected na binabanggit ko po, wala na. Noong 2017, filing, kaugnay sa 2016, SAL-N, at yung 20... 20 filing kaugnay ng 2019 Sall-in na may sinubmit po siyang dalawang correction sa Sall-in niya. **[01:43:15.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Wala po kayong copy nun? **[01:43:16.300] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, based on our records, yun lang po yung mga Sall-ins na meron kami. Yun po yung sinubmit namin sa House of the Representatives. **[01:43:23.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Bilang **[01:43:23.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Mayor, sinasubmit po nila yan sa Deputy Ombudsman for Mindanao. Hindi po ba? **[01:43:29.100] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[01:43:29.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Lahat **[01:43:30.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** po ba pino-forward sa inyo? **[01:43:32.280] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi po. Sila din po yung repository nun, Your Honor. **[01:43:35.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Hindi ikaw? **[01:43:37.780] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tell me po sa Central Records Division ang hawak lang po namin is the President, Vice President, the Constitutional Commissions po. **[01:43:47.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** But ma'am you testified on the SALN of the Vice President earlier before she became Vice President. **[01:43:53.560] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor, because we requested upon receiving the subpoena of the House of Representatives, we requested those silence. **[01:44:03.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** But as a **[01:44:03.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** natural course, hindi na po pinapadala sa inyo yung records pag hindi niyo po nire-request. Nandoon na **[01:44:10.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** po sa kanila. **[01:44:10.720] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor. Okay. **[01:44:12.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator-Judge Pangilinan is recognized. We can entertain Senator-Judges until 12 noon to take advantage of the time. Senator-Judge Pangilinan, Senator-Judge Villanueva, thereafter, Senator-Judge Sotto. **[01:44:26.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. **[01:44:28.850] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. It's actually a follow-up to the points raised by the Presiding Officer. Atty. Batu, sabi po ninyo na noong 2017 at 20, yung walang corrected SALN in your possession, tama po ba? **[01:44:48.370] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Opo, Your Honor. **[01:44:49.400] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Dalawang beses daw kasi, according to our presiding officer, Kinorek. Would you know kung yung sinubmit ninyo sa House of Representatives and I would assume hanggang dito sa impeachment court, would you know if it was a corrected copy? Kasi sabi nyo isa lang eh. Or the original copy? **[01:45:10.640] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, I... Kasi **[01:45:12.360] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** isa lang, di ba? Dalawang sinubmit, pero yung pangalawang dalawang sinubmit, corrected. **[01:45:19.230] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So **[01:45:19.710] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** ang tanong ko, yung sinabit ba ninyo sa house as based on this subpoena ay yung corrected? Kaya isa lang? O yung hindi corrected? Would you know? Would you know? If **[01:45:37.120] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** you know. **[01:45:37.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Opo, Your Honor. **[01:45:41.570] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Prior to her tenure as the Vice President, sa Mindanao po kasi galing yun. Kasi sila po yung for the local government officials ng Mindanao area. So nung nag-request po kami sa kanila, upon receiving the subpoena from the House of the Representatives, yun po yung binigay nilang salihan sa amin, Your Honor. **[01:46:02.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, to answer Senator-Judge Pangilinan, actually what was submitted was not the corrected version because the correction only pertained to minor matters. The name of a relative that was omitted in 2019 and the address of her father, unofficial also at that time, in 2016. **[01:46:26.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So they did not reflect it anymore in the salin. It was simply contained in a letter. Correcting. Okay. **[01:46:32.010] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Thank you for the clarification, Mr. Presiding Officer. Maraming salamat, ma'am. **[01:46:35.910] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Thank you, po. **[01:46:36.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Senator-Judge Villanueva. Is recognized. You have two minutes, sir. **[01:46:42.520] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Yes, **[01:46:43.080] Sen. Joel Villanueva** thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. President. Ma'am, just to be clear lang, under the rules applicable to each of the respondents' SALN in 2019 to 2024, para lang po malinaw yung timeline po. Kung mayroon po pang discrepancy sa SAL-N hanggang kailan po maaaring itama o kumpletuhin ang isang SAL-N matapos itong ma-file at anong particular event ang nagsasara po ng correction period? **[01:47:16.000] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sir, from what I know, based on the omnibus SAL and guidelines, once it's submitted to the repository agency, parang you cannot have any amendments or changes. Final na po yun. That's the omnibus SAL and guidelines provisions po. **[01:47:35.100] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Patay po doon sa records na binabanggit po ninyo na kayo yung nagbabantay, ipinalam po ba? Sa respondent, Vice President, ang mga particular na discrepancy kung meron man na sinasabing nakita sa kanya pong salin at binibigyan po ba siya ng pagkakataong ipaliwanag o itama ang mga ito pag hindi pa napupunta dun sa repository? **[01:48:00.910] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I wouldn't know that sir kasi as I've said the office of the ombudsman is merely a repository agency so kung yung correction po dapat nasa review and compliance committee ng agency not with the office of the ombudsman po. So **[01:48:16.770] Sen. Joel Villanueva** pag na-receive po ang nangyayari lang po is that's it wala pong nagbe-verify or anything na ginagawa para kunyari po ma-ensure na yung na-submit na salin ay Kompleto po in form and in substance. Wala pong ganoon. **[01:48:32.250] Atty. Karen S. Batu** We just checked lang po kung halimbawa kasi ang nagsasubmit na po sa amin ng SAL-N is the head of the agency. So nagbibigay po yan ng list kung sino yung mga compliant, non-compliant, at hindi nagsasubmit pa. So biniverify lang po namin based on the listings kung nandun po yung mga pangalan ng mga SAL-Ns na yun. **[01:48:52.140] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Ibig sabihin pagdating po sa inyo, verified na yun ng form and substance. Salamat po. Isa na lang po dun sa maingat nating nais maintindihan tungkol po doon sa paglalamp ng cash on hand at cash in bank dun po sa item ng other personal assets. Ito po ba ay karaniwang ginagawa o unusual na yung cash in hand, cash in bank? Pwede mong ilamp doon sa other assets? **[01:49:23.580] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I'm not an expert pagdating sa mga ganyang usapin sa SAL-N and how other government officials filled out their SAL-Ns. So I cannot make any inference or conclusion as to that matter. **[01:49:38.880] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Tinanong ko po ito kasi doon sa 2025. 2025 lang po in-issue ng Civil Service yung guidelines na kung saan binabanggit po dito na dapat maging particular ka doon sa iyong tinatawag na cash declaration doon po sa section 26 ng memo guidelines nila. So ang tanong ko po, previously yung 2024, 2023, 2022, wala pa po itong guidelines na ito. Sa inyo pong pananaw bilang isang abogado at matagal na po nandyan sa ombudsman? Pupwede po ba na nung hindi pa lumalabas itong memo na ito ng 2025, pupwede po ba na ilump yung cash on hand o cash in bank doon po sa tinatawag na other assets po? **[01:50:28.450] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, again, I'm not competent to answer that. I can only answer as to my own experience. **[01:50:37.230] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Parang even... Prior to this 2025 sale-in, nagde-declare na kami ng cash on hand, cash in bank separately. **[01:50:46.320] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Meaning sa inyong experience, even before the issuance of these guidelines, hindi nila lump sa other assets ang cash or cash in bank? In your experience. **[01:51:00.670] Atty. Karen S. Batu** In my experience, Your Honor. **[01:51:01.950] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Salamat po, Madam Vice. Thank you, Mr. President. **[01:51:04.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Without correcting the witness, the Chair would like to spread into the records Section 96 of the Omnibus Rules on Salen. **[01:51:14.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Corrective action after submission to repository agency. Upon submission of the original SAL-Ns with the Repository Agency, as outlined under Rule 9, corrections or amendments in the entries upon the initiative of the Declarant shall no longer be allowed. But it has a second paragraph. In the subsequent compliance on the filing of the SAL-N, any correction of entries non-disclosure of which was unintended or made in good faith shall be deemed a correction of the previous year's SALN. So, pwede po makorect sa susunod na taon kung based in good faith nga po. Senator-Judge Sotto is recognized. Apologies for the slight delay. **[01:52:00.340] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** No problem, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you very much. And just to support what Senator Villanueva has mentioned, for the record, and in addition to what you have mentioned, there is a Civil Service Commission resolution. **[01:52:19.950] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Number 1300174, issued January 24, 2013, which states that you have 30 days non-extendable from receipt of the order from your agency's head or office to complete or correct your SALN. Mayroong ganun pala silang Civil Service Commission. But I have only one question, Mr. President. And this is an issue na... **[01:52:49.810] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Atty. **[01:52:56.520] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Witness, a bank deposit denominated in a foreign currency is still an asset of the declarant, di po ba? **[01:53:10.530] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi ko po masasagot yan, Your Honor. **[01:53:20.170] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Counsel for the Prosecution. **[01:53:22.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** What **[01:53:23.250] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** is the **[01:53:23.510] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** question, Your Honor? Again, sorry. **[01:53:24.950] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** A bank deposit denominated in foreign currency is still an asset of the declarant. Tama po ba? **[01:53:33.450] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, of course, Your Honor. **[01:53:34.430] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Okay. Ganun din ano. The... Attorney Poa. Attorney Justin, go ahead. **[01:53:42.040] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. Correct. **[01:53:43.300] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Okay. **[01:53:43.900] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Sorry, may I clarify the question, Your Honor? **[01:53:46.300] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Yung pong mga bank deposits na denominated in a foreign currency, dapat nakadeklara rin sa solid. Di po ba? **[01:53:54.360] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** We will defer the construction of the law to the impeachable, ah, to the Senator-Judges, Your Honor. We'd rather not comment on matters of law. **[01:54:01.580] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Ah, okay. Now, sa tagal niyo po doon, Attorney, sa Ombudsman, at saka repository kayo. **[01:54:12.930] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Nakikita niyo po ba na doon sa mga SALNs na ang mga nagde-deposit at nakasubmit ng mga SALNs sa inyo, doon sa cash on hand nila o cash on bank, may nagde-deklara ng foreign currency? **[01:54:26.860] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I'm sorry, Your Honor, but we do not check po isa-isa kung ano yung mga nakalagay po na mga items na dinideclare ng mga declarant natin. We merely check po as to the forms tapos po kung nasa list sila. Pero as to the details stated therein, hindi po namin yan chinecheck, Your Honor. **[01:54:47.100] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** So hindi mo, ikaw mismo, hindi mo napapansin na let's say doon sa cash on hand? Meron silang kung ilang milyon o ilang daan libo nakalagay, di ba? Ano, puro pesos ba nakikita niyo nun? Hindi, I'm not pertaining to the silence of the Vice President. Doon sa mga dati ninyo, sa mga lahat, sa kalahatan, **[01:55:11.810] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** meron **[01:55:13.370] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** po ba na nagdideklara o hindi nagdideklara? **[01:55:16.290] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Again, Your Honor, we do not check po yung mga items na nilalagay nila sa mga silence nila. We merely check as to the forms po. **[01:55:26.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** With the indulgence of Senator Judge Sotto, if I may read into the records, Section 35 of the Omnibus Rules. Foreign currency. Personal properties such as cash on hand and in bank, as well as stocks and the like, denominated in foreign currency, shall be converted for purposes of declaration into the corresponding Philippine currency equivalent at the rate of exchange prevailing. A. On the date of assumption to office for those entering government service, B, as of December 31 of the preceding calendar year for the annual filing, and C, on the date of separation from the service for those leaving the government service. So dinedeklara po pero sa piso na po, hindi **[01:56:14.010] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** sa kung anumang foreign currency. All right. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. My question was answered. **[01:56:22.270] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III** Thank **[01:56:22.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you, Your Honor. **[01:56:25.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator-Judge Hontiveros is recognized. **[01:56:37.310] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[01:56:41.320] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Madam Witness, isang clarificatory question lamang po para malinaw. Kapag stockholder ng kumpanya, tama po ba na considered personal property yung shares of stock at kailangan i-declare kung magkano yung acquisition cost? ng shares sa ilalim ng personal properties. **[01:57:06.030] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, I'm sorry but I'm not in the position to answer that. As again, the Office of the Ombudsman is merely a repository agency of this Salen. **[01:57:15.770] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Alright. Kung ganun, salamat Madam Witness. Kung ganun po, Mr. Presiding Officer, kung pwede kong itanong yung prosecution at yung defense. So, Atty. James, kailangan bang i-deklara? kung magkano yung acquisition cost nung shares na yun sa ilalim ng personal properties kung shareholders sa kumpanya. **[01:57:37.380] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Salamat po sa tanong, Madam, Your Honor. Hindi na po ako sasagot po based on my knowledge but I'll just refer Your Honors to Section 8 of RA 6713. **[01:57:52.700] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Yes, yung Code of Conduct and Ethical Standards kung saan considered. **[01:57:58.980] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Asset ang stocks na dapat kasama sa SAL **[01:58:02.360] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** -N. So ayun po, without, so that I don't make any conclusions, Your Honor, I'll just refer the members of the Honorable Court to that Section 8 of Republic Act 6713 where it states na kailangan po parte ng SAL-N sa personal property at ang acquisition costs. At malinaw po doon ang ginagamit na word ay end. Acquisition cost in relation to personal property. Yan lang naman po ang sinasabi ng batas. **[01:58:31.830] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po Mr. Presiding Officer kasi yung unang nabasa ko pa lamang dun sa section 8 na yun ay all other assets such as investments, cash on hand or in banks, stocks, bonds, and the like. **[01:58:45.950] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Idagdag ko lang po your honors if you'll allow it with your kind permission po. Ang personal property po Kasama rin po yan. Based dun sa section na yan, kasama po dyan ang stocks and other **[01:58:56.710] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** investments. Okay. Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Kung may gustong i-comment din ang defense sa tanong ko tungkol dun sa kung kailangan ilista yung acquisition cost ng stocks sa ilalim ng personal properties kung shareholder sa kumpanya. **[01:59:12.610] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Thank you, Your Honor, for considering the side of the defense. But again, having in mind the position and reminders of the Presiding Officer, We defer matters of conclusions of law to each of you, Senator-Judges hereon. **[01:59:24.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** With the indulgence of Senator-Judge Riza, as earlier asked by the Presiding Officer, Atty. James, ba't wala sa form? Saan ko ilalagay kung gusto ko ilagay? You're correct in citing the law, but even if the official wanted to, where and how will he put it when we're supposed to fill out a prescribed form? **[01:59:49.380] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** May I respond? **[01:59:50.280] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Of **[01:59:50.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** course. **[01:59:51.360] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I'm asking you, counsel. Your Honor, as I mentioned, this is not me mentioning this, it's just the law. Section 8, personal properties and... I **[02:00:00.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** agree with what the law says. Yesterday, your expert witness said it comes in a prescribed form. I asked if it was illegal for the President and Vice President to have business interests, then why do their forms still contain that? And she said it's a standard form. Fine. So it's a standard form. It's pro forma, she said. So why does this pro forma form? Not include a line or column for acquisition cost for businesses if that is the requirement of the law. **[02:00:36.730] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, if I may? **[02:00:38.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If you know, counsel. **[02:00:39.250] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I'll try my best to know, Your **[02:00:40.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honor. **[02:00:42.230] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Kasi po yung stocks is considered as personal property. So dapat po nandun sa personal property portion yung stocks. Hindi, nakahiwalay na table yun eh. As you said, you haven't filled out **[02:00:54.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the **[02:00:54.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** form. I'm not arguing, Your Honor. I understand the form that there are two portions, the business interest and the personal properties, Your Honor. And I'm not trying to influence the Honorable Court, but our understanding, Your Honor, is that because these are personal properties like investments, and if you look at the form, Your Honor, there is also no separate portion for investments because these are all considered as personal properties. And I think the CSC is in a better position to answer this. But based on our stand, Your Honor, it has to be included in the personal property if we are to believe that SAL-N should be... So **[02:01:31.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you lump it there? **[02:01:33.210] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor, that is our position. **[02:01:34.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You lump it there, personal properties? **[02:01:36.850] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, and I may just add that it has to be itemized, Your Honor. That is our position. **[02:01:41.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** But that's not in the guidelines anymore as well, counsel. Anyway, Senator-Judge Riza, apologies for the interjection. Just to clarify. **[02:01:50.830] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[02:01:55.250] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Ito pa po sa Section 30 on inclusion. Nasa omnibus rules po on SAL-N. Personal property refers to jewelry, appliances, furniture, motor vehicles, and other tangible movable properties of value. So, kitang-kita po natin sa forms kanina. This shall also include, nasabi ko na po, investments or other assets such as cash on hand or in the bank, negotiable instruments, securities, stocks, bonds, and the like. So, siguro yung huling observation ko na lamang po, Mr. Presiding Officer, hindi ko palang maalala sa puntong ito kung sino po sa impeachment trial na ito ay nagbanggit but I seem to recall na may nagbanggit na baka nga po kailangang Ammendahan baguhin i-improve yung form mismo para ma-deklara natin lahat na nagtatrabaho sa gobyerno **[02:02:47.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** yung hinihingi ng **[02:02:48.450] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** batas. That **[02:02:49.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** was discussed yesterday. Yes, **[02:02:51.070] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Mr. Presiding Officer. Salamat po sa parehong recollection din pala sa alaala ko. Salamat po, Madam Witness. Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[02:03:01.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, the Senate President. Then we break for lunch. **[02:03:10.070] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Discussion on the corporations. Madam Witness, itong corporations, nakita ko sa mga SALN hindi naka-declare yung acquisition cost. So, ibig sabihin na may possibility na yung net worth is undervalued. **[02:03:31.750] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kasi walang value yung mga corporations. **[02:03:35.730] Atty. Karen S. Batu** I cannot make that inference, Your Honor, kasi as I've said, the Office of the Ombudsman is merely a repository agency. So, as to the SALN po of anyone, kung undervalued yun dahil hindi po nag-declare ng acquisition costs, hindi po namin yun masasabi, Your Honor. Can **[02:03:57.170] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** I ask the prosecution, since you raised this non-declaration, is that the possibility na undervalued yung net worth? Because there's no value in the corporation. It's declared, but there's no value. Ibig sabihin the corporation, the acquisition cost might be millions. **[02:04:16.020] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, without concluding anything, yes, it can be a possibility. That's why precisely, Your Honor, it has to be declared para po klaro at the onset kung ano po talaga yung... **[02:04:30.760] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** corresponding na amounts or value ng mga shares of stock. So **[02:04:34.620] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** yung napakita kanina ng mga pinakita mong mga net worth can be undervalued because walang value yung corporation eh. **[02:04:42.260] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. That's a **[02:04:44.240] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** possibility. Alam naman **[02:04:44.540] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** yung liabilities. **[02:04:45.540] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** That's **[02:04:45.900] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** a possibility. Alam **[02:04:46.480] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** natin yung asset. But blanco yung acquisition cost for corporations. I would assume there's a value for that. Pag linagay mo yun, di lalaki yung net worth. **[02:04:55.600] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Opo. At yun po yung line of questioning ko kanina, Your Honor. That's the **[02:04:58.420] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** possibility po. Okay. **[02:04:59.680] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** And in that case, I was looking at the SAL-Ns. Tatanong ko ulit si Madam Witness. Kung that is the case, kailan pwedeng i-correct o lagyan ng value ng declarant yung mga corporations? **[02:05:20.680] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kasi hindi natin, based dito sa SAL-N, hindi natin nakikita yung true net worth eh. Kasi walang value yung corporation. Ngayon, kung gusto na ngayon ng deklarant lagyan ng value, kailan niya pwedeng lagyan ng value? **[02:05:35.710] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, again, the Office of the Ombudsman cannot make any comment on that. Kaya **[02:05:42.330] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** kung gusto lang niya i-correct, let's **[02:05:43.730] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** say gusto niya i-correct, or kagaya ng sinabi ni President Officer, nalito lang siya doon sa column, gusto niya nalagyan, kailan niya pwedeng, kailan ng deadline sa pagko-correct? **[02:05:56.590] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang submission po kasi natin ng SAL-N is every 30th of the April po, pero that's for the agency. So Office of the Ombudsman po, currently ang guidelines po namin states that ang submission po to the office as the repository agency is every 30th of June. So pag na-submit na po siya sa amin, Your Honor, as to the changes po pertaining to those assets, Aside from the form and other clerical or minimal error, hindi na po pwede, Your Honor. **[02:06:29.940] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So in other words, every year, kasi tinitignan ko yung pinasent na SAL-N, every year walang value yung corporation. So every year, possibility lang naman ito ah. There's a possibility na undervalued the net worth. **[02:06:44.870] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kasi **[02:06:45.350] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** walang correction eh. Tinitignan ko itong pinasent na SAL-N. **[02:06:50.440] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, I cannot make that inference based **[02:06:53.360] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** on the records. I'll ask the prosecution. Is that a possibility? I'm just saying whether it's **[02:06:57.980] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** a possibility or not. **[02:06:59.460] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. I think that's also precisely why there is a corrective mechanism so that kung meron mang pumali na hindi sadya, pwede pong makorect. Ang problema lang po, pag tuloy-tuloy na wala namang tuloy-tuloy yung declaration, tapos wala namang pong correction. But I'll leave that judgment to the Honorable Court, Your Honor. **[02:07:19.220] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Balikan ko si Ms. Witness. Kanina nasabi ng ating former Senate President Tito Sotto yung foreign currency deposit. Kung meron kang foreign currency deposit, saan mo ilalagay siya? Saan mo i-declare siya in your SAL-N? **[02:07:35.750] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, I haven't experienced declaring foreign currency deposit. **[02:07:40.090] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Since you're a custodian, you've been working in the Ombudsman for quite some time since 2010. **[02:07:49.360] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kung may nagtanong sa iyo, saan ko i-declare yung dollar account ko? Saan niya ilalagay in the columns? **[02:07:55.220] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Generally, your owner bank deposits are declared under the personal properties. **[02:08:00.620] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** In personal properties. So doon niya ilalagay yung kanyang personal properties. Yung foreign currency deposits niya. Next will be, dito sa mga sal-ends ni VP Sara, may nakita ba kayong... Kulang sa declaration ng SAL-Ns? May years ba na kulang? **[02:08:26.840] Atty. Karen S. Batu** You mean po, Your Honor, meron pong year na hindi nag-submit? **[02:08:30.000] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yes. **[02:08:31.750] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2013 po, Your Honor, wala po kaming record ng kanyang 2013 SAL-N. **[02:08:39.870] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** One year lang? **[02:08:41.430] Atty. Karen S. Batu** For 2014, wala din po. **[02:08:46.010] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So how many years ang kulang? Give me complete answers. **[02:08:50.620] Atty. Karen S. Batu** 2013 and 2014 po wala. May certification po yung Office of the Mindanao na wala pong silang nakitang on records ng 2013 and 2014 SAL-Ns. **[02:09:01.500] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** And then, nakita ko sa rules na pag bagong assumption mo sa office, kailangan mo rin mag-declare ng SAL-N, tama? **[02:09:10.120] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor. **[02:09:11.340] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Because of this rule, kompleto ba yung declaration ng VP Sara sa kanyang SAL-N? **[02:09:20.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang nakita lang po namin is for the 2013, wala po siyang exit SAL-N. As to the entry SAL-N, mukhang kompleto naman po. Yung exit SAL-N lang po ng 2013 na wala. **[02:09:33.650] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yung itong dalawang years na sinabi niya walang SAL-N, ano ang corrective mechanism dyan? Assuming nakalimutan lang, assuming nakaligtaan ng accountant, kailan siya pwedeng mag-correct? **[02:09:48.250] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Based **[02:09:48.790] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** on your knowledge with itong ganitong declaration of SAL-N? **[02:09:54.370] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based on my understanding po pagdating sa non-filing po ng SAL-N, kasi nga po may deadlines po as to the filing of SAL-N. Kung maglipapile po siya ng late, say after 30th of June, which is the deadline for the Office of the Ombudsman, **[02:10:17.070] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tatanggapin pa rin po namin yun but that would be labeled as a late filing. **[02:10:21.510] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Nasabi sa akin ng ating presiding officer in 2013-2014 di naman public official si VP **[02:10:28.280] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sara. Parang nag-end po yung term niya noong 2013, June 30, 2013. **[02:10:33.080] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So ang dapat mag-file siya ng SAL-N? **[02:10:35.180] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po. **[02:10:35.980] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Bago matapos yung kanyang... **[02:10:39.000] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Exit SAL-N po. **[02:10:40.400] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yung exit SAL-N niya. And then, another question. Pag fina-file ba sa inyo, do you verify the correctness of the contents of the SAL-N? Ginagawa ba yan ng ombudsman? **[02:10:54.260] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi po as to the correctness ng contents po, Your Honor. Chinicheck lang po namin kasi from time to time nagbabago po ng form ang Civil Service Commission. So, chinicheck lang po namin kung tama yung form na ginamit. Tapos kung minsan nakasign po. **[02:11:18.620] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Like for **[02:11:19.940] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** example, kanina na pinapakinggan ko yung mga corporations na undeclared. Nagkakaroon ba kayo, let's say, ng cross-reference with SEC para makita nyo kung declared siya o hindi? Meron bang ganyan na mga mechanisms to verify? **[02:11:35.870] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, hindi po namin ginagawa yun because we only accept po yung mga sal-ends lang po ng mga public officials. No attachments needed po. **[02:11:44.850] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** So ministerial lang tinatanggap **[02:11:46.350] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** niyo at **[02:11:46.850] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** repository lang kayo? **[02:11:48.530] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po, Your Honor. Thank **[02:11:49.690] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** you, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[02:11:52.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Habol, bago mag-go, Senator-Judge Pangilinan, before we break for lunch, for your interjection. **[02:11:58.160] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Thank you, **[02:11:59.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Mr. Presiding Officer. **[02:12:03.090] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Atty. Batu, **[02:12:06.210] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Tinitingnan niyo, sabi niyo kanina, yung correctness nung filed SAL-N on the basis of yung form. **[02:12:13.010] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Opo, Your Honor. **[02:12:14.290] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. Hindi ba yung SAL-N merong... Yung form niya, sabi niyo, nagbabago minsan based on CSE. Tama **[02:12:22.550] Atty. Karen S. Batu** po. **[02:12:22.950] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay. Pero alam ninyo na dito sa form na ito, merong one, two pages ata, merong... **[02:12:32.480] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Parang declaration on business interest on one hand. Pero meron din declaration on personal properties. **[02:12:46.770] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So merong **[02:12:47.950] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** business interest, merong personal properties. Hindi ba sa form? **[02:12:52.090] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po. So **[02:12:53.050] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** tinitingnan niyo yun. So walang acquisition cost area sa business interest. Pero naalala ko kasi kahapon sabi ni Justice Cabotaje Tang na based on the law, kinakailangan yung personal properties dinedeklara. So there is a separate declaration or form sa form yung personal property declaration, di ba? **[02:13:22.010] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Opo. **[02:13:22.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** At naroon sa personal property declaration yung acquisition cost. Nandun po. Okay, so it may not be indeed... Business interest form, part of the form, but it is in the personal properties part of the form yung nire-require yung acquisition cost. **[02:13:41.380] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[02:13:42.600] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Okay, yun lang. Just to clarify that. So may requirement ng acquisition cost for personal properties and shares would be considered personal property? **[02:13:54.840] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po, meron po tayong acquisition cost. **[02:14:18.720] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Thank you. You just clarified that. **[02:14:24.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** That's what I do too in my cell and for my law firm, Senator-Judge Pangilinan. I put it there in personal property para may acquisition. Anyway, let's break for lunch. We shall resume at 12.45. **[02:14:42.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Trial is on recess for lunch. **[02:55:32.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Presumed. **[02:55:34.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly situate the witness. Atty. Karen, to the witness stand. **[02:55:53.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Ma'am Karen, patuloy po kayong magbibigay ng testimonya na nakabase po sa naunan yung pananumpa. Nauunawaan po rin yan? **[02:56:01.580] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor. **[02:56:02.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Salamat po. Nakapag-lunch po kayo? **[02:56:05.860] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Kunti po, Your Honor. **[02:56:07.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tama yan. Kunti lang. Para lahat tayo, konti lang. Are you ready with your cross, Attorney Justin? **[02:56:14.540] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. With the court's permission. **[02:56:16.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You may proceed when **[02:56:17.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you're ready. **[02:56:18.560] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Thank you, Your Honor. Atty. Karen Batu, magandang hapon po. **[02:56:22.960] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Good afternoon, sir. **[02:56:24.100] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** I **[02:56:24.400] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** just have some questions for you this afternoon po. **[02:56:27.610] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Simulan **[02:56:28.050] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** po natin. You are appearing today as the representative of the Office of the Ombudsman. Tama po? **[02:56:33.590] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. As the officer in charge of the Central Records Division. **[02:56:37.610] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, correct. And pardon if I have to ask this again. This **[02:56:40.850] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** is just to **[02:56:41.250] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** confirm. You're of course a lawyer-attorney, batu, correct? **[02:56:44.470] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor. And **[02:56:45.910] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** it is in these capacities that you actually identified the sal-ends of the Vice President including those nung Vice Mayor at Mayor po siya ng Davao City. Tama po ba? **[02:56:57.020] Atty. Karen S. Batu** As the officer in charge po ng records division. **[02:57:00.640] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, so **[02:57:00.660] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you identified those in today's hearing as the officer in charge. Yes. Now, those include the silence filed by the vice president when she was a vice mayor, correct? **[02:57:15.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po. **[02:57:15.850] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And you confirmed that a vice mayor is not an impeachable officer, correct? **[02:57:21.530] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po. **[02:57:22.350] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And you also identified silence that were filed by the vice president. During the time that she was the mayor, correct? **[02:57:29.760] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po. **[02:57:30.440] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Particularly the two terms, correct? **[02:57:32.620] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po. **[02:57:33.140] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And as a lawyer, Atty. Batu, you can also confirm that a mayor is not an impeachable officer, correct? **[02:57:40.380] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po. **[02:57:41.300] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And you also identified SAL-Ns when she was vice president, correct? **[02:57:47.620] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes sir. **[02:57:48.220] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Particularly, these are the SAL-Ns for 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025, correct? **[02:57:54.780] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes sir. **[02:57:55.420] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And you confirm that these are the SAL-Ns that she filed when she was an impeachable officer. Tama? **[02:58:02.110] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[02:58:02.910] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. Now, you also confirmed that this is not the first time that you testified under oath in relation to the impeachment of the Vice President. **[02:58:12.880] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Objection, Your Honor. There was no answer relative to that, Your Honor, in the direct examination. **[02:58:19.320] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** That's **[02:58:19.760] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** why I'm **[02:58:20.340] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** asking, Your Honor, during cross, Your Honor. **[02:58:22.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let's give him sufficient leeway, Counsel. We submit, Your Honor. **[02:58:25.990] Atty. Karen S. Batu** This is the first time, sir. **[02:58:27.960] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** So, are you now telling us, Atty. Batu, that you did not appear before the House of Representatives Committee on Justice? **[02:58:34.620] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, but I was not sworn in during that time. **[02:58:37.400] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** So, when you testified during that hearing, you were not sworn in by the House of Representatives. But you confirmed that you attended that hearing. **[02:58:44.500] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[02:58:45.020] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And you confirmed that questions were propounded and questions were answered by you. **[02:58:49.320] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. And **[02:58:50.060] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** this was particularly the hearing on April 2026 that you were not sworn in, correct? **[02:58:56.570] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[02:58:57.390] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** It's okay, Atty. Batu. You also even attended that hearing together with the ombudsman himself, correct? **[02:59:03.810] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[02:59:04.450] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And this was our current Ombudsman, Jesus Crispin Remulla, correct? **[02:59:11.470] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[02:59:12.010] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, you identified all the SAL-Ns today. My questions are very simple. In testifying today, however, you confirmed for the record, Atty. Batu, that you have no personal knowledge of the assets declared in all these SAL-Ns. Tama po ba? **[02:59:27.850] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes sir, I have no personal knowledge on the SALN, on the listed personal properties there but what was just written in the SALNs. **[02:59:39.710] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Whether it be the assets under the name of Sara Z. Duterte, correct? **[02:59:43.990] Atty. Karen S. Batu** No personal knowledge? Yes, no personal knowledge as to the other than what is written in the form. And **[02:59:51.710] Atty. Karen S. Batu** no personal **[02:59:51.990] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** knowledge as well of the assets under Manases R. Carpio. Correct? **[02:59:56.310] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[02:59:56.950] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** You also confirmed that you also have no personal knowledge of the liabilities indicated in all these SAL-Ns you identified today, **[03:00:03.700] Atty. Karen S. Batu** correct? Yes, sir. **[03:00:05.100] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Whether it be liabilities under the name of Sara Z. Duterte, correct? **[03:00:08.760] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:00:09.520] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Or whether Manases R. Carpio, correct? **[03:00:11.660] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:00:12.100] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** You also have no personal knowledge in relation to the net worths declared in all these SAL-Ns, correct? **[03:00:19.020] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:00:19.480] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Whether it be again for Sara Z. Duterte, correct? **[03:00:22.430] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:00:22.930] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Or whether it be book for Manassas Archive. **[03:00:25.090] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:00:25.470] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama naman. **[03:00:26.010] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And you also confirmed that you also have no personal knowledge on the disclosure of business interests and financial connections in all these Sal-Ns. Tama po ba? **[03:00:35.090] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. Other than what is written in the Sal-Ns po na binasa ko, yun lang po yung alam ko. **[03:00:39.650] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. Now, my question is: in all these SAL-Ns from 2007 to the current year, 2025, are you aware of any investigation, particularly in relation to these SAL-Ns? **[03:00:55.380] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sir, I am not here to discuss those things kasi I am here as the OIC of the records division lang po. **[03:01:04.940] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** My question is simple. If you're not aware, are you aware or you are not aware? As an answer, Your Honor, **[03:01:09.860] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** the witness has already responded accordingly. **[03:01:14.000] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, the witness was not responsive, Your Honor. May we just respectfully invoke the rule? To direct the witness to directly answer whether she's aware or not aware. Witness **[03:01:22.570] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** will please answer. The witness is a lawyer. She may answer if she knows. Yes, Atty. Karen? Alam niyo po ba o hindi? Were you aware or not? **[03:01:37.080] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Can I have that question again? My **[03:01:41.280] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** question again, Atty. Batu, is aware po ba kayo of any investigation that was conducted by the Office of the Ombudsman in relation to all the SAL-Ns that you identified today? Only if you're aware. **[03:01:54.970] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Again, as the OIC records division, I am not privy to those information unless I'll check it right now. **[03:02:07.190] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Thank you, Atty. Batu. It's okay. As a lawyer and a public officer yourself, and you mentioned you've been one since 2003, tama po ba? **[03:02:15.850] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[03:02:16.390] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** You are aware naman that the law governing the submission of SAL-N is Republic Act 6713 or the Code of Conduct on Ethical Standards for Public Officials and Employees. Tama po ba? **[03:02:28.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[03:02:28.630] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** And particularly, in relation to SAL-Ns, that would be Section 8 of 6713. Tama? **[03:02:34.490] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:02:35.090] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. And now, I'm just gonna show you **[03:02:39.560] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Section 8 of 6713. Your Honor, may we also request that it be flashed, Your Honor. And for the record, we are flashing the witness of said provision. **[03:02:51.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You may proceed. Kindly zoom it into the relevant section. Your **[03:02:55.690] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Honor, may we ask the assisting lawyer to approach the witness to check the documents that is being shown. **[03:03:00.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, continuing authority to both assisting counsels from both parties are given. **[03:03:04.490] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Thank you, **[03:03:04.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Your **[03:03:05.010] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Honors. Atty. Batu, do you have the copy of the law with you? Yes, **[03:03:10.070] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** sir. Particularly on Section 8? **[03:03:12.310] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[03:03:12.970] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now my question is, you confirm that based on that law, there is nothing that specifically requires a separate line declaration for cash on hand slash cash deposit in a public officer's salon, correct? **[03:03:47.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** What was the question again, sir? **[03:03:49.230] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** My question is, Atty. Batu, allow me to repeat upon your request, po. You confirm that there is nothing in that law that specifically requires a separate line declaration for cash on hand slash cash deposit in a public officer's salon. **[03:04:07.210] Atty. Karen S. Batu** If I may read lang po yung nakalagay dito, the two documents shall contain information on the following, all other assets such as investments, cash on hand or in banks, stocks, bonds, and the like. **[03:04:22.130] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. I am asking you specifically on line item. Can you please tell us whether there is a specific requirement on a line item or a line declaration or an itemized declaration under that law? **[03:04:44.190] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Can I be clarified on that po? When you say line item, parang ano pong ibig nyo sabihin? **[03:04:50.930] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** I'm referring to in the SAL-N that there is a specific itemized row. for cash on bank and cash deposit. Is there a requirement under that law? **[03:04:59.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel, to clarify, you're referring to the SAL-N form? **[03:05:02.430] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. Yes, Your Honor. **[03:05:04.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa SAL-N form po ba, attorney Karen, meron pong nakalagay na specific na blanco, column, o linya para sa cash on hand? **[03:05:12.950] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** To clarify, Your Honor, as required by law, or 67-1. As required **[03:05:16.390] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** by law. **[03:05:17.320] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa SAL-N form po, from what I know, wala pong nakalagay na mga line items for any personal properties or real properties. **[03:05:29.420] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** We will accept that answer, Your Honor. May I proceed, Your Honor? **[03:05:32.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Move on, Counsel. **[03:05:33.700] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. And my next question, Atty. Batu, still on that Section 8, is there an express prohibition on lumping personal properties with other Personal properties in declaring these in your SAL-N? **[03:06:05.510] Atty. Karen S. Batu** None, sir. **[03:06:06.890] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** So there is no, please confirm that there is no prohibition on collective declaration, correct? **[03:06:13.570] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based po dito sa Section 8, wala pong expressed prohibition. **[03:06:18.910] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Thank you po. Atty. Batu, siyempre, as a lawyer and a public officer yourself, you would be aware that the form of SAL-N is also prescribed by our Civil Service Commission, tama po ba? **[03:06:29.510] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, **[03:06:29.750] Atty. Karen S. Batu** sir. **[03:06:44.820] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po ba? **[03:06:46.260] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, sir. **[03:07:01.380] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Let's go back to the Salen Forms. Are you aware that the first Salen Form, Uniform Salen Form, is the 1994 Revised Salen Form which was adopted through CSC Memorandum Circular No. 2 Series of 1994? **[03:07:16.560] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Siyempre, Sir, hindi ko na yan matandaan. I'm no longer aware of that. **[03:07:20.040] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Pardon **[03:07:20.560] Atty. Karen S. Batu** me. **[03:07:21.480] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** It's okay, Atty. Batu, of course. But now, I'm confronting you. **[03:07:25.580] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Objection, Your Honor, please. **[03:07:27.700] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, it's very... And I don't mean to lecture, I'm really sorry about this. But it's very basic, Your Honor, that if the witness has already said that he is not aware of the document, hindi na po pwedeng sumunod yung question na ay kinoconfront ko po kayo neto ngayon. Kasi kailangan po muna niyang i-identify, to authenticate, within her personal knowledge po ba yun. And that is not a technical objection, Your Honor, that is in due fairness to the witness. Kasi hindi po pwede kung ano-ano lang yung i-confront sa kanila. In fact, I'm not even sure, Your Honor, if that is already the official 1994 SAL-N because there was no witness who authenticated it. But if they want to continue to authenticate it, they should do so at the time when they present their witness. But so far as we are concerned, the witness has already said, No, hindi ako familiar. The **[03:08:14.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** door **[03:08:15.260] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** closed, **[03:08:15.740] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your **[03:08:15.900] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Honor. **[03:08:16.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Justin, the witness said she cannot remember and she apologizes for not remembering. **[03:08:23.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I'm hoping, Atty. Justin, you will confront the witness with **[03:08:26.980] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** a document. Yes, precisely, Your Honor. We are in the process of confronting. Confront the **[03:08:29.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** witness with a document, **[03:08:30.940] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** if she knows. **[03:08:31.100] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor. **[03:08:34.020] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Atty. Batu, in front of you is the CSC Memorandum Circular No. 2, Series of 1994, which, of course, this honorable court can take judicial notice of. **[03:08:45.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Your Honor, **[03:08:46.380] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** on that note... And attached to that is the... I'm not finished. I'm not... I'm not finished with my question. **[03:08:51.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I will **[03:08:52.280] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** do so, **[03:08:53.180] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor. And **[03:08:53.740] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** attached to that is the 1994 revised silent form. Can you please go over the 1994 revised silent form? **[03:08:59.760] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Before **[03:09:00.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the witness answers, **[03:09:01.220] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor. **[03:09:01.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** She's not yet going to answer. She's going to go over it. Yes, Attorney James. What's your objection? **[03:09:05.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yun po sana yung tinatanong ko kanina, Your Honor. Kasi may dokumento ngayon dito na sinasabi ng defense that the court can take judicial notice. But I'm not sure about that, Your Honor. Kasi nga po, wala namang witness na nagsasabi. from the CSC or from whatever government office that would say that this is actually the 1994 template SAL-N. Now, if the court would say, Your Honor, that this is indeed so, then I would defer. However, at this point, we do not have any witness or any other way to know if this is indeed. For all we know, Your Honor, this is fabricated, this is... This is not the real 1994 template salad. Just to be fair to the witness, Your Honor, please. Your Honor, **[03:09:48.790] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** three **[03:09:49.750] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** levels **[03:09:50.230] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** of responses. First, there is no rule under trial that you need to authenticate a document before you can confront a witness. Number two, we will take exception to the accusation by the prosecution that this is fabricated. For the record, Your Honor, this document, CSC Memorandum Circular No. 2, Series of 1994, was downloaded from the CSC website itself. And this honorable court can confirm it, Your Honor, right now. And third, Your Honor, precisely we are confronting the witness with the document to confirm its contents. There's no prohibition. I'm on cross, Your Honor. **[03:10:25.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Given that she's the record keeper as well, I presume she kept all of the records even in the previous years prior to her assumption as OIC. If you know, ma'am, kindly answer the question of attorney of the council for the respondents. **[03:10:38.460] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** We **[03:10:38.600] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** submit, Your Honor. Thank you. Thank **[03:10:40.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you, Your Honor. May **[03:10:40.880] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** I proceed, Your Honor? **[03:10:42.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Please proceed. **[03:10:43.380] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Ma'am, nasa inyo na po yung 1994 SAL-N form. Now, can you confirm, ma'am, that in the prescribed 1994 SAL-N form, there is no separate disclosure line for cash on hand/cash deposit under real properties—personal properties, rather. Correct? **[03:11:04.010] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. Yes, sir. **[03:11:06.150] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** So, wala? **[03:11:06.870] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala **[03:11:07.270] Atty. Karen S. Batu** po. **[03:11:07.530] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. And you also confirm, please go to the next page, ma'am, which is the Disclosure of Business Interest. You also confirm that in the Disclosure of Business Interest, there is no row, or there is no column, rather, for the Acquisition Cost of Business Interest, correct? **[03:11:27.060] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Walang nakalagay na dapat ideklara yung Acquisition Cost of Business Interest sa format na yan? **[03:11:33.260] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala po, sir. Okay. **[03:11:34.260] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Maraming salamat. Now, let's go to the 2013 Revised SAL-N Form. By this time, tama po ba na public officer na kayo? 2013? Yes. Now, I am showing you the 2013 Revised SAL-N Form adopted through CSC Memorandum Circular No. 2, Series of 2013. For the record, Your Honor, these have been directly downloaded from the CSC website to disabuse the prosecution. **[03:12:01.110] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, because of the word disabuse, may we just manifest Your Honor. And I think just a point of... If you'll allow it, Your Honor, I promise to be very brief. **[03:12:11.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Go ahead, Attorney James. **[03:12:13.480] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Thank you, Your Honor. Again, Your Honor, kahit naman po sa cross-direct, the duty to authenticate, to identify, is not dispensed with. It's still part of it. You have to do it. If the witness would say, Teka lang, hindi ko ata alam yan eh. That would have ended it, Your Honor. But I have deferred. I'll just go on. But again, Your Honor, the statements of the Good Counsel here, na-downloaded na ito, It's not authentication, Your Honor. Even if it's coming from an official portal, how would we know? Or how would the court know? Sabi lang po nila yun eh. **[03:12:47.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Well, counsel, again, Attorney Karen is the records keeper of the Office of the Ombudsman, is the repository. She should be familiar with the forms and has it changed through the years as she testified to earlier. And since she was already a public officer at that time, she already filed her own SAL-N in 2013 and would be familiar with the form if she knows. Under **[03:13:11.310] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** those lines, we submit, Your Honor. Thank you, **[03:13:13.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Paul. Thank you, Atty. James. Please proceed, Atty. Justin. Thank **[03:13:16.070] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Um Do you have it with you na po, Atty. Badu? **[03:13:18.350] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, **[03:13:18.710] Atty. Karen S. Batu** sir. **[03:13:18.950] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, you confirm that under that 2013 revised SAL-N form, there is no separate disclosure line or row for cash on hand or cash deposit for personal properties, correct? **[03:13:32.220] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. Based on this SAL-N form I'm holding right now, wala pong item. And **[03:13:39.580] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you confirm on the next page po, if I may request you to do so. Under the business disclosure declaration part, there is also no separate column for the acquisition cost of business interests. Correct? **[03:13:52.430] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. For this SAL-N form, wala pong nakalagay na acquisition cost for the business interests and financial connections. **[03:14:00.770] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Maraming salamat, Atty. Batu. Pasensya, puntahan po natin yung 2015. Now, I am showing you the 2015 Revised SAL-N Form. This was adopted, for the record, through CSC Resolution **[03:14:13.670] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** 150088 on January 23, 2015. Do you have the document already with you, Atty. Karen? **[03:14:19.470] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:14:20.130] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Atty. Karen, puntahan po natin yung table for disclosures on personal properties. Are you there na po? **[03:14:26.730] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:14:27.390] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Okay. Same question. In that 2015 Revised SAL-N Form, there is also no separate disclosure line or row for cash on hand/cash deposit, correct? In that template? **[03:14:43.050] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sir, okay lang po ba sabihin ko na hindi ko makita kasi medyo darken yung... It's okay, it's **[03:14:48.190] Atty. Karen S. Batu** okay, **[03:14:48.350] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you can state that. **[03:14:49.810] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, dito po sa personal properties, yun sa column, yung sa heading, hindi ko siya makita on this copy po. **[03:14:57.070] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, but **[03:14:57.550] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you can also not find anything that states cash on hand or cash on bank on the copy, on the face of that copy. **[03:15:03.490] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ah po, dito po wala pong nakalagay na line item. **[03:15:06.540] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, can you please go over the next page po on that 2015 revised SAL-N form, Atty. Batu? Can you also confirm that there is no column for the acquisition cost in relation to business disclosure? **[03:15:23.110] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Again sir, if I'm just basing this on this SAL-N form, medyo dark po yung heading ng column. **[03:15:31.330] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** So **[03:15:31.650] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you cannot see any word that says acquisition? Even on the basis of that copy po. **[03:15:40.390] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sir, sorry pero hindi ko talaga siyang makita. **[03:15:42.870] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** It's **[03:15:43.110] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Fine, it's fine, Atty. Batu. Thank you so much. Let's proceed, Atty. Batu. I am now showing you the latest form, or the 2025 Revised SAL-N Form. This was adopted through CSC Resolution No. **[03:15:56.310] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** 2500632, or the 2025 Omnibus Rules on SAL-N promulgated last June 25, 2025. Do you have it with you na po? Attorney, puntahan natin yung personal properties. You confirmed that there is also no separate disclosure line for cash on hand/cash deposit. **[03:16:16.730] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. There is no separate line item for cash on bank or cash **[03:16:22.190] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** on hand. And on **[03:16:22.650] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** the next page po, please. You also confirmed that with respect to business disclosure, there is no column for acquisition cost. Tama po ba? **[03:16:32.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. There is no separate column for acquisition costs. **[03:16:37.780] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Okay. Maraming salamat. Let's move on, Atty. Batu. Maraming salamat. You also confirmed that nag-i-issue din po yung Civil Service Commission ng mga guidelines on how to fill up a SAL-N. Tama po ba? **[03:16:50.280] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:16:51.140] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Okay. Now, and you were a public officer since 2003. **[03:16:56.900] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:16:57.500] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** You must be aware that in 2013, the CSC Promulgated the 2013 guidelines in the filling out of Statement of Assets, Liabilities, and Net Worth or Memorandum Circular No. 2 Series of 2013. Are you aware of that po? **[03:17:12.380] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi na sir. I can no longer recall that. **[03:17:15.880] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** It's okay, Atty. Batu. Please allow me to assist you. Atty. Batu, I am now confronting you with the 2013 guidelines in filling out SAL-N forms. **[03:17:28.070] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** May we just request that it be flashed? **[03:17:42.710] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Tech Booth. Please. Pasensya po, Atty. Karen. **[03:17:59.160] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Okay. **[03:18:01.440] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Atty. Karen, I hope you could see from that distance. And just please do inform us. **[03:18:06.400] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Pwedeng i-enlarge po ng konti sana. **[03:18:09.950] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, before that, can we just ask if the hard copy can be given to the witness so that she may, there's no difficulty in her reading, Your Honor? **[03:18:20.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I don't think they have one right now. **[03:18:22.220] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, apologies. We will be candid to this court. We don't have the hard copy as of the moment. 2013 guidelines. **[03:18:31.770] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** But we have a soft copy, Your Honor. And this is still sourced from the CSE website. Sorry, Your Honor, we have it actually. **[03:18:40.540] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** It's page on... Can you please scroll down on personal properties? There. **[03:18:51.890] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor, for the record, we are confronting the witness. We do sincerely apologize for the hiccup. But we will proceed, Your Honor. Now... Atty. Batu, do you have it na? **[03:19:01.950] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:19:02.610] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Are you **[03:19:02.790] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** in the portion of personal properties po? **[03:19:05.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:19:06.150] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Just to clarify, there's also another page behind which is still personal properties. Can you please look at it? **[03:19:12.310] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:19:13.090] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, you confirm it. Okay, now my question, Atty. Batu, you confirm that in those guidelines, there is no prohibition on collective declaration of cash on hand or cash deposit with other personal properties. Can you please peruse that guideline? **[03:19:38.080] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, **[03:19:40.040] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Which portion, I'm sorry Your Honor, I just want to be clarified, which portion are we looking at, Your Honor? Because there appears to be an enumeration from O to O no. **[03:19:50.660] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Can you please stick to the personal properties tech booth? Yes. **[03:19:55.060] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, we confirm. If I may just finish, Your Honor, please. There appears to be four, no, five enumerations there. And for clarity to the witness, I'm not sure which one is being... Is it Q where it states that personal properties collectively acquired or are of minimal value may be declared generally? Let's wait **[03:20:20.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** for Atty. Justin. I already guided **[03:20:23.100] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** the witness to look into the subsections under the heading personal properties before I ask my question. **[03:20:30.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So kindly look at it ma'am and what is your question Atty. Justin? **[03:20:34.120] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Atty. Batu, tapos na po tayo or do you need more time po? **[03:20:41.380] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sige sir, I'm **[03:20:42.420] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** done na **[03:20:42.800] Atty. Karen S. Batu** po. **[03:20:43.000] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** My question po, Atty. Batu, is there an express prohibition for lumping cash on hand or cash deposit with other personal properties? **[03:20:57.240] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala namang pong prohibition on any matter po dito sa personal properties. **[03:21:01.640] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Thank you po. Let's go to the 2025 Omnibus Rules, or the one adopted through CSC Resolution No. 2500632. Ito po yung latest—kinukumpirma n'yo, or are you aware of it? **[03:21:14.980] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:21:16.020] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, still, on the portion for personal properties, is there any express prohibition on collective declaration of cash on hand or cash deposit with other personal properties? **[03:21:41.240] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sir, yes, wala rin pong prohibition on lumping. **[03:21:44.620] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Okay, next. Let's move on, Atty. Batu. Now, earlier, during the interjections of the good senator judges, you were asked about corrections, po. **[03:21:57.120] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes. **[03:21:57.980] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, are you aware that under the 2025 Omnibus Rules on SAL-N adopted by the CSC, which is the one in front of you, **[03:22:06.160] Atty. Karen S. Batu** are **[03:22:06.540] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you aware of what Section 95 thereof states? **[03:22:11.940] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Section 95? **[03:22:25.030] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Are you on that page, Atty. Karen? **[03:22:27.150] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:22:27.630] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, **[03:22:27.710] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** can you just confirm? Am I correct that under Section 95, it states, correction when allowed. Minor and substantial correction to the SAL-N is allowed after filing with the department? agency or office concerned and during the implementation of its SAL-N review and compliance procedure. You confirm that that section is there? **[03:22:47.450] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:22:48.130] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Okay, next question. You confirm that section 96 states, and I quote, corrective action after submission to the repository agency upon submission of the original SAL-Ns, any correction of entries, the non-disclosure of which was unintended. Sorry. Allow me to read it again. Upon submission of the original SALNs with the repository agency, as outlined under Rule 9, corrections or amendments in the entries upon the initiative of the declarant shall no longer be allowed. And paragraph 2 thereof states, in the subsequent compliance on the filing of the SALN, any correction of entries, the non-disclosure of which was unintended or made in good faith, shall be deemed a correction of the previous SALN. You confirm that provision. **[03:23:34.910] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. It's written here. **[03:23:36.430] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes. Now, my next question is, are you aware of Ombudsman Memorandum Circular No. 3, Series of 2025? **[03:23:43.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:23:43.930] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, do you confirm that Section 5.0 states, and I quote, any public official or employee who files a corrected, amended, or supplementary SAL-N with their respective agency must ensure that a copy of such corrected filing is submitted to the appropriate Office of the Ombudsman within 30 calendar days from the date of correction. Do you confirm that? **[03:24:06.970] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:24:07.530] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** In other words, the ombudsman should also be furnished with a copy of those corrected salens. **[03:24:12.070] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, **[03:24:12.290] Atty. Karen S. Batu** sir. Correct? **[03:24:12.950] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Okay. Thank you. **[03:24:16.400] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Now, last few questions, Atty. Batu. **[03:24:18.620] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:24:19.420] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Earlier, you were asked by senator-judges about opinions in relation to salen. To clarify, those were in relation to your personal experience, correct? **[03:24:30.020] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:24:30.440] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** But you are not... **[03:24:35.480] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Sir, **[03:24:36.800] Atty. Karen S. Batu** As I've said, my testimony will be limited to what is written in the submitted SAL-Ns of the Vice President. **[03:24:42.880] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** In fact, Atty. Batu, that is your consistent statement because do you recall before the hearing of the Committee on Justice of House of Representatives, do you recall making this statement, and I quote, We cannot make any conclusion on the ano po, basta kung ano lang po yung binasa nyo, we can confirm na iyon po yung nakalagay sa SAL-N nila, Your Honor. Correct? **[03:25:02.040] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, **[03:25:02.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sir. **[03:25:02.700] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** You recall making that statement? Yes, Sir. So, when asked about anything in relation to the SAL-N of our client, the Vice President, you are not competent to say whether it is irregular, correct? **[03:25:13.540] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Sir. You **[03:25:14.520] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** are not competent to say whether it is unusual, correct? **[03:25:17.400] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Sir. You **[03:25:18.180] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** are not competent to say whether it is wrong or defective, correct? **[03:25:21.880] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Sir. **[03:25:23.380] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** So in testifying in today's trial, allow me to conclude. So in testifying in today's trial, you cannot conclude whether the Vice President has or does not have ill-gotten wealth. **[03:25:36.380] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Objection, Your Honor. Irrelevant, Your Honor. We've given leeway. We've let the witness answer despite the line of question being irrelevant. It was clear from the very start that the witness was only testifying. based on the records. And we've been fair with the witness in our direct examination only asking her to do that. **[03:25:56.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** We get it, counsel. Attorney Justin, move on. **[03:25:59.000] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Thank **[03:25:59.320] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** you, Your Honor. Thank you, Your Honor. In that case, no further questions, Your Honor. **[03:26:03.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Any redirect, Attorney James? **[03:26:04.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Maraming salamat, Atty. If you'll allow me, Your Honor, just a few. **[03:26:06.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Of course. Please proceed with your redirect, Atty. James. **[03:26:09.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Maraming salamat po. **[03:26:11.300] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Madam Witness, I just have probably **[03:26:13.160] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** two questions. **[03:26:18.030] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Nakita niyo po yung mga SAL-Ns na pinakita kanina sa inyo. From... I forgot the years. But anyway, these are previous forms of the SAL-N. At ang tanong po sa inyo kanina ay wala pong line item na cash. Tama po. **[03:26:34.750] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po. **[03:26:35.690] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Meron din po bang line... Looking back at those SAL-Ns, what other line items is contained there? **[03:26:45.940] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** If you recall, unless we can show it again. If you can show it again po, please. **[03:26:56.000] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Based po dun sa kakakita ko lang ng mga documents, wala namang pong line item. So, **[03:27:02.180] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** walang line item for cars? **[03:27:04.900] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala po. **[03:27:05.600] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Walang line item for jewelries? **[03:27:08.360] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Wala din po. **[03:27:09.340] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** So, ibig sabihin di na kailangan i-declare yan kasi walang line item eh. Tama po ba yan? Or you would not know that answer? **[03:27:21.200] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Again, based po dun sa nabasa ko, nakalagay doon na kailangan i-declare yung mga personal properties na in-itemize doon. **[03:27:28.980] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. So, that's fine, Madam Witness. I won't go further with that. **[03:27:35.790] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** You also mentioned about the correction. There's a corrective measure. And we also want to be fair with the Vice President. There is a way for her to correct the silence. But I remember... Kanina nung direct examination niyo, you mentioned that once those documents or SAL-Ns have already been forwarded to you by the head of the agency or whatever corresponding body that would forward it, what is the effect of those SAL-Ns once they are forwarded to you by the heads of agencies, if there are any? **[03:28:15.460] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Deemed filed na po iyon pag na-e-forward sa repository agency. So tinatanggap po namin yung mga SAL-Ns na binigay ng agency according to the stated deadline. At **[03:28:28.100] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** sinabi niyo po kanina na hindi na pwedeng i-correct kasi nasa sa inyo na. Tama po ba yun? **[03:28:32.720] Atty. Karen S. Batu** That's under the omnibus **[03:28:34.140] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** guidelines. Okay, that's fine. That's fair. But also, to be fair to the Vice President, there's a succeeding paragraph, hindi po ba? Ang sinasabi noon, And I'm sorry or I'm just recalling this from memory. I don't have that on screen. Ang sinasabi doon that the subsequent filing of the SALNs would constitute a correction if there are any corrections at all. That's correct, right? **[03:28:58.730] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:29:00.510] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** But going through all the SALNs during the direct examination and based on your records, was there a corrected SALN by the Vice President? **[03:29:11.500] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Doon po sa sinubmit namin sa inyo, lahat po yun parang SAL-N for the one for each year. So wala naman po akong nakitang corrected SAL-N. **[03:29:23.800] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** But also to be fair to the Vice President, there was one, tama po ba, nung nabanggit po ng ating kagalang-galang na presiding officer na may correction on some clerical or if not minor matters. Tama po yan, tama. **[03:29:37.150] Atty. Karen S. Batu** That was not forwarded to us so I cannot confirm. Anyway, **[03:29:41.010] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** but Based on your records, there was no corrected. And this is what you're saying a while ago. There was no SAL-N insofar as correction is concerned. **[03:29:50.010] Atty. Karen S. Batu** As I've said kanina, meron for 2025. **[03:29:53.130] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Okay. So, based on your testimony now, lahat po ng SAL-N na nakita nyo, Are the true and accurate SAL-Ns based on your records by the Vice President? **[03:30:06.140] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sa official records po namin nakukuha lahat ng submitted SAL-Ns. **[03:30:10.640] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I'm on my last point, Madam Witness. And hopefully, I think we're about to end early also today. **[03:30:18.920] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** You mentioned that you had no personal knowledge, although that wasn't an issue, but we've given leeway to the good counsel. You mentioned that you had no personal knowledge. On the SAL-Ns, and you just merely based your testimony today on the records that you have. Tama po yun? **[03:30:36.470] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po. Lahat mo nang binanggit ko, based lang po dun sa nakasulat na SAL-Ns. Pero, **[03:30:41.150] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** naaalala ko din, when I started my direct examination, you mentioned that SAL-Ns are made or are executed under oath. Tama po? **[03:30:52.330] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. **[03:30:53.170] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** And who again makes that oath? **[03:30:56.270] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Asked and answered, Your Honor. **[03:30:57.530] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** By the own admission of the counsel, he asked it during the hearing. **[03:31:01.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let's let him wind up, counsel. We will. **[03:31:05.680] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Again, Madam Witness, sinabi niyo po that SAL-Ns are declared under oath. So my question is this, just to clarify what our friends from the defense was asking a while ago. Who again swears when they filed a SAL-N? **[03:31:23.270] Atty. Karen S. Batu** The declarant po. **[03:31:25.810] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** In all the SAL-Ns of the Vice President, who is the declarant there? **[03:31:32.170] Atty. Karen S. Batu** The Vice President herself. **[03:31:33.950] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Therefore, he attests that those are true and correct. Tama po ba? Based sa records at based sa rules. **[03:31:39.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, sir. **[03:31:40.830] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** That would be all, Your Honor. **[03:31:41.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Can I recross, Attorney Justin? **[03:31:44.470] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. Just two questions. But for the record, it's not a he, it's a she. Please proceed. **[03:31:48.970] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** I'm **[03:31:49.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Sorry, Your Honor. I'm really sorry. I will proceed, Your Honor. **[03:31:53.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Please proceed. **[03:31:55.040] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Dalawang tanong lang po, Atty. Batu. Pasensya. Sinabi mo na po at just please confirm na wala po kayong personal knowledge sa mga SAL-N. Tama po ba? **[03:32:04.300] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Sa mga SAL-N po ni VP. **[03:32:06.040] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** So **[03:32:06.400] Atty. Karen S. Batu** wala **[03:32:07.680] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** din po kayong personal knowledge kung may kailangan na i-correct. Tama po ba? **[03:32:12.930] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, sir. Kasi we don't do reviews of the SAL-Ns submitted. **[03:32:16.210] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** That's all, Your Honor. Thank you. **[03:32:18.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Atty. Batu. **[03:32:19.560] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Thank you. **[03:32:24.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Interjections by the Senator-Judges. Senator Lapid is recognized. **[03:33:02.730] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Kanina, may dalawang kasamaan ako rito. Nag-consulta sa inyo kung meron silang dollar account. Kasama ba sa SAL-N yun? **[03:33:12.950] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Pag nag-submit sila ng SAL-N, kung dollar account? **[03:33:17.550] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Kapabasa ko lang po ng Omnibus SAL-N Guidelines. Ang nakalagay po doon, parang kailangan natin siyang i-declare, pero converted in pesos na po. **[03:33:29.470] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Kahapon pa po, hanggang ngayon. Agde-diskursyon na ang mga prosecutor at defense tungkol sa saan. **[03:33:38.630] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Mula 2007 hanggang 2005, 25, nagmula sa 7 million kay VP Sara hanggang sa 98 million. Umabot na 2025. Tama ba ako? **[03:33:56.420] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Yes, Your Honor. Based on what was identified. **[03:33:58.740] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Alam niyo po, sa tagal ng discussion natin, Maraming nakikinig ng mga kababayan natin na hindi naintindihan kung anong SAL-N. Yung magsasaka, magtight sky driver, maging isda. Discussion time, discussion dito, hindi natin alam. Ang konsultasyon ko po, alimbawa kami, ang nakakaintindi lang sa SAL-N, kami lang po, kami mga politiko, yung nagtatrabaho sa gobyerno, yun lang po nakakaintindi sa SAL-N. Ngayon, ang tanong ko po, kung hindi ka makasubmit, kami po ha. Nang isang beses sa SAL-N, anong kaparusaan? **[03:34:36.450] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Meron po tayong provision on non-filing of SAL-N. So, violation po yun ang RA-6713. **[03:34:42.750] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Para mahalaman po ng ating mga kababayan na ang SAL-N ay masyadong mabigat sa amin. Nalang-lalo na po **[03:34:50.770] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** kung hindi kami nagdeklara ng tama. Meron po kasi ako napanood na isang abogado na in-interview sa TV. Ang sabi niya, ayaw ko lang po kung tama ito. **[03:35:02.380] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Walang politiko o magsasubmit ng SAL-N na tatatrabaho sa gobyerno na totoo. Ang sabi niya, isang kalokohan yan kung magsasabi sila ng totoo. Tama po ba yun? **[03:35:19.280] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Magsasabi ng totoo na magsasubmit ng totoong SAL-N. **[03:35:26.970] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Kami po, ako po, nagsasubmit po ako ng totoong SAL-N, Your **[03:35:30.890] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Honor. Hindi joke yan, ha? **[03:35:33.600] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi po. **[03:35:34.580] Sen. Manuel “Lito” M. Lapid** Okay, salamat po. Yun lang po. **[03:35:41.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Senator-Judge Lapid. Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo is recognized. **[03:35:47.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. **[03:35:57.260] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Ginang witness, dahil kanino nabanggit ninyo pa ulit-ulit na repository lamang po ang inyong tanggapan. Tama po ba? **[03:36:05.800] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Tama po, Your Honor. **[03:36:07.100] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Kung repository po kayo, so hindi po ninyo malaman kung mali o tama ang ipinahil na SAL-N sa inyo? **[03:36:16.700] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang masasabi po namin na tama as to the form lang po. Pero yung mga contents po, Your Honor, hindi po namin yan nire-review. Kung may **[03:36:24.620] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** mga na-omit o hindi sinagutan ng mga portions, paano ho ito? **[03:36:31.980] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Kung may mga na-umit po, hindi rin po talaga namin malalaman kung meron siyang dapat i-declare doon or wala. Ang tinitingnan lang po namin talaga kung tama yung form na ginamit, napirmahan, dated, tapos paginated. Okay. Kung sa kasakaling **[03:36:48.100] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** makita ninyo na may mali, alright? Very glaring yung mali. **[03:36:56.480] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Magti-trigger ba ito ng investigasyon sa ombudsman? O may unit ba ang ombudsman? na pwedeng mag-imbestiga magsimula through your office na SER unit ng Ombudsman. Meron po kami nakitang problema dito. Pwede ba silipin to? May ganun ho ba kung may nakita kayong very glaring na mga mali na merong unit sa Ombudsman na pwedeng mag-imbestiga? **[03:37:23.530] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Ang field investigation office po namin, yun po yung mga nagkakondak ng fact-finding investigation. Pero wala po silang access sa mga saliens na sinasubmit sa amin unless magre-request po sila for purposes of conducting the fact-finding investigation. **[03:37:40.930] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** During your stint with the ombudsman, wala pa po bang naimbestigahan? or pinaimbestigahan ng inyong unit repository na may duda kayo sa SALN? Wala pa bang ganun kayong nalalaman since kayo pumasok dyan sa Ombudsman? **[03:38:06.210] Atty. Karen S. Batu** May mga kaso na po kasi nakarating naman na po ng Supreme Court, Sandiganbayan. So mayroon po mga kaso ang Office of the Ombudsman na inimbestigahan ng mga... Public Officials dahil sa mga Sal-Ns nila. **[03:38:21.110] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Paano po nahalongkat yun? Through your office or because may nagsumbong, may nag-report? Is that what it is? **[03:38:27.250] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Usually po, Your Honor, meron po nagsusumbong. Kadalasan po usually mga anonymous complaints. **[03:38:33.950] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Okay, panguli na lamang po. Sa inyo po nakita dahil kayo po nagdala nung Sal-N-EBP sa Congress. Tama po ba? **[03:38:44.940] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Opo. Opo. **[03:38:45.740] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Okay. By just looking at it, may nakita ba kayong may mga mali? Or just by looking at it, na may mali? **[03:38:58.780] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Hindi ko po talaga tinignan lahat ng mga nakalagay doon. Ang tinignan ko lang po kung tama yung years na hinihingi sa amin. Yun lang po yung sinabit kayo, Your Honor. But as to the contents, hindi po namin ni-review. **[03:39:10.720] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** So hindi niyo malalaman because repository lang po kayo. **[03:39:13.440] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes po. **[03:39:13.780] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Alright. Thank you po, Madam Witness. **[03:39:15.980] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Thank you, Your Honor. **[03:39:17.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** There will be no further interjection. Yes, Senator-Judge Jontiveros. **[03:39:22.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You **[03:39:23.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** may proceed when you're ready, ma'am. You have two minutes. **[03:39:30.390] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Sorry, Mr. Presiding Officer, at salamat po. **[03:39:34.580] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Madam Witness, isang clarificatory question lamang po muli. **[03:39:39.080] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Yes, Your Honor. Thank you po. Salamat po. **[03:39:42.640] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Sa Section 33 naman po ng Omnibus Rules on SAL-N, nakasaad po doon: collective declaration. Personal properties collectively acquired or of the same nature and kind may be declared generally or collectively. Ibig sabihin, puwedeng ipagsama lahat ng sasakyan. Puwede rin pong ipagsama lahat ng alahas. Pero dapat pare-parehong uri ng personal properties. So bilang abogado po, Madam Witness, tama po ba na base sa probisyong ito na Section 33, Collective Declaration, bawal ang collective declaration sa lahat **[03:40:29.150] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** ng **[03:40:29.270] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** personal properties na magkakaibang uri? **[03:40:35.980] Atty. Karen S. Batu** Your Honor, again, I cannot make that conclusion po merely because I am just a records custodian po ng mga SAL-N. Pero as to the review of that, hindi po kami kasi iyon. **[03:40:50.680] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po Madam Wittes. Mr. Presiding Officer, tanungin ko na lamang po muli ang defense at saka ang prosecution. So, if I may ask Atty. Justin, kung tama po ba na bawal yung collective declaration ng lahat ng personal properties na magkakaiba-ibang klase? **[03:41:09.200] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Again, to respond to the good Senator, In relation to questions of law, we leave it to the Senator-Judges, Your Honor. In **[03:41:16.170] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** keeping of the **[03:41:16.890] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** reminder of the Presiding Officer. **[03:41:18.590] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po, Atty. Justin. Atty. James, parehong tanong po. Tama po ba na base sa probisyong ito ng Section 33 Collective Declaration? **[03:41:31.730] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Bawal po. Pagsama-sama lahat ng klase ng personal properties sa isang collective declaration. **[03:42:03.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I'm confirming this, then I'll allow it. Are you aware of any other law that says that that interpretation is indeed the correct one? **[03:42:13.330] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Your Honor, at this point, I do not recall any law that would specifically say that it has to be separate. But what I can say, Your Honor, and I'm just basing this on the law, even under Section 8 of 6713, meron pong directive. To declare individually yung mga bagay na yun. Kasi po, inenumerate sila. Under Section 8. Under Section 8. So that would be my **[03:42:39.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** answer. Of 6713. **[03:42:41.590] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Yes, Your Honor. **[03:42:42.730] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Okay. And yun po, Mr. Presiding Officer, yung all other assets such as investments, cash on hand or in banks, stocks, bonds, and the like. **[03:42:53.430] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** Based on the enumeration, Your Honor, that is how we took it. **[03:42:57.430] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po, Atty. James. Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you. **[03:43:01.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If there are no other Senator-Judges who wish to make an interjection or intervention, Atty. Karen, you are excused, ma'am. Salamat po sa oras, panahon, pasensya at pagsagot sa katanungan naming mga Senator-Judges at magkabilang partido, abogado ng magkabilang partido. Salamat po. Thank **[03:43:19.930] Atty. Karen S. Batu** you, Your Honors. Thank you po. **[03:43:24.570] Atty. James Bryan Ibrahim A. Alih** At this point, as we proceed, may I just turn over to our co-lead prosecutor, the Honorable Redon? **[03:43:31.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, the Honorable Ridon is recognized. We shall proceed with our next witness. **[03:43:35.850] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Thank you, Your Honor. **[03:43:36.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honorable Ridon, kindly call either the next counsel handling the next witness or your next witness. **[03:43:47.780] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** No, Mr. Presiding Officer, Honorable Presiding Officer, it is our submission that we would want the next witness to be presented not today but next week, next Monday na lang po, para hindi rin pumabitin yung presentasyon. **[03:44:05.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Although, is he here? **[03:44:06.500] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Yes, I think he is here. He is here. **[03:44:09.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Do you project a long direct? We have an hour still. **[03:44:16.300] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Medyo mahaba po yung presentation kasi mga financial documents po nung pong mag-asawang Duterte Carpio po yung ilalahan. **[03:44:39.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay, given the manifestation of the Honorable Redon, we shall continue with the testimony of attorney, rather proceed with the testimony of Attorney Del Rosario on Monday. That would give also the counsel for respondents adequate time to go over. Any possible cross on this witness is as I know that they already know by now what the testimony of this witness shall cover. **[03:45:06.760] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** Your Honor, can **[03:45:07.800] Atty. Justin Nicol B. Gular** I ask that the lead defense lawyer be recognized? **[03:45:11.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Attorney Sheila. **[03:45:14.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Before we take up other matters and adjourn for the day. **[03:45:17.830] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor, good afternoon. I just have a few questions. We received yesterday a copy of the advisory. Dated September 14, 2026 on the Court's Calendar from September 8 until November 8, Your Honor. Just have a few clarifications. For October 1 to 2, 5 to 9, and 12 to 15, it says here that the trial will be for the whole day. By whole day, Your Honor, this would be from 10 o'clock to 5 p.m., Your Honor. **[03:45:54.210] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Is there any possibility that the trial on those dates would extend until after dinner? It's **[03:46:04.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** possible to extend after dinner for as long as we are up to it. We haven't tried it, counsel. I don't think you've tried it. But that's why it was stated there whole day instead of whole day and night. because we're not sure as well. But I think we'll take it as we see it. But generally, counsel, it'll be 10 to 5. **[03:46:26.610] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Okay, that's okay, Your Honor. Then we thank the court for that clarification. No, actually, Your Honor, I had experienced some trials pending up to 7 p.m., Your Honor, but this was before Sandiganbayan. As much as **[03:46:44.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** possible until before dinner, counsel. **[03:46:46.710] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Or 6.30. Okay, Your Honor. Thank you. And for tomorrow's proceeding, Your Honor, we also understand that the schedule is for the reception of the opinions of the amici. And we would just like to ask if the parties would be given copies of the memoranda, if any, were submitted by the appointed amici. **[03:47:10.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I'm about to do that now, Counsel. **[03:47:11.730] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you, Your Honor. **[03:47:12.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. Tomorrow, as a reminder to the parties, we will not have a trial. We shall receive the friends of the court, or the amici curiae, namely former Chief Justice Panganiban, former Chief Justice Reynato Puno, former Associate Justice Adolfo Azcuna, and former Chief Justice Davide, via a memorandum that he submitted. We received the memorandum from former Chief Justice Davide yesterday, which we will furnish the Senator-Judges today as well as the parties today. We shall read part of the synopsis of his memorandum tomorrow before we hear the other amici curiae, and we shall also furnish the parties the **[03:48:10.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Memorandum ad cautela of Father Aquino from the San Beda Graduate School of Law, as well as other memoranda that the Court may receive in due course for the information and reference of the parties. Tomorrow, we shall be removing the witness stand, of course. We shall be having three tables and two convenient microphones or lecterns for easier access for our **[03:48:39.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** former justices and chief justice of the Supreme Court. We would appreciate it if counsel would accept a contraction of the seats you have right now to accommodate those tables. Perhaps you can take the first gallery as well because it will be free. And then we will allow the Senator-Judges to cumulatively ask the amici curiae for 5 minutes instead of the usual 2 because there are 3 of them. They can ask questions of any of the 3, or just a single one, for 5 minutes each, each Senator-Judge. And the parties can course their questions through the presiding officer. If you have any questions to the amici curiae, you can course any questions through the presiding officer, which I would gladly **[03:49:33.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Relay to our amici curay. **[03:49:38.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So the court hereby directs the **[03:49:40.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Clerk of Court to kindly furnish the Senator-Judges and the parties with a copy of the memorandum submitted by former Chief Justice Hilario Davide as well as that submitted by Father Dean Aquino of the Graduate School of San Beda. So ordered. **[03:49:55.920] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor. **[03:49:57.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Atty. Sheila. **[03:49:58.050] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Just one more point. Just for clarity, we only have three, the court only appointed three, four Amici Curiae. Four, only four. And the one submitted by Father Aquino is not an Amicus Curiae. **[03:50:14.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** No, it's not. **[03:50:15.570] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you, Your Honor. **[03:50:16.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** We're just furnishing you a copy for whatever it's worth. And if you receive any other ad cautela memorandum, we shall furnish the parties as long as it's not clearly. partisan, biased, or is not in accord with the court's standards and procedures. **[03:50:33.600] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Your Honor. Your Honor. **[03:50:36.860] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Yes, **[03:50:37.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honorable Ridon. **[03:50:38.720] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** I'm just going back to the SEC witness. Yes. Can he be excused for tomorrow and just be ordered to return? **[03:50:45.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes. Our subpoena doesn't cover Monday anymore, correct? That is correct, Your Honor. So that's the 21st? The 21st. So... Since we might not already have the opportunity at Honorable Redon, can you give me your other witnesses for next week aside from Attorney Del Rosario? **[03:51:06.260] Rep. Terry L. Ridon** Tomorrow po, we will submit the list for the consideration of the Court. **[03:51:10.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay, in the meantime, Court hereby directs the actions of subpoena to Attorney Gerardo Del Rosario of the SEC to appear here on the 21st and 22nd of September at 10 in the morning. Thank you. **[03:51:29.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator-Judge Lacson, what is your pleasure, sir? **[03:51:32.560] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Thank you, **[03:51:33.640] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Mr. **[03:51:33.820] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson** Presiding Officer. Just to preclude any confusion among the Senator-Judges, yung five minutes po, eh, hindi para each of the three amici curiae, kundi total na iyon. Yes. Baka po sumobra-sobra, kaya kiniklarify po. Yes. Salamat po. **[03:51:54.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** There being no other matters to be taken up, we shall see you tomorrow at 10 a.m. Senator-Judge Zubiri, apologies. **[03:52:06.260] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** It's not about the proceedings of the court or questions of the court. It's just that we're going to adjourn now till 3 o'clock. Just a reminder to our colleagues that we're going to start our budget hearing, finance subcommittee hearings this afternoon. So ano tayo, we're doing multitasking. But we'd just like to ask our colleagues to appear here first for roll call and then you may proceed to the subcommittee hearings unless you are in the PICC. which therefore we agreed already that we will call your names as present here as long as you attend the Committee on Finance hearings in the PICC. Thank you. Just a reminder to my dear colleagues why we're all here together. **[03:52:49.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And to complete the announcement for our Senate President, session will be called at 2.30 p.m. **[03:52:56.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Trial is adjourned until 10 a.m. of Wednesday, September 16, 2026. Thank you. I'm Terian.