# September 2, 2026 Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Duterte Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5UnWJcasHo Status: Reviewed working draft, revision 2 **[00:05:39.720] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The sergeant at arms is directed to make a proclamation. **[00:05:44.720] Alfredo Sotto Corpuz** All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the impeachment court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. **[00:05:55.420] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator-Judge Bam Aquino. **[00:06:09.140] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Lumalapit po kami sa inyo upang hingin ang inyong gabay sa pagtupad ng aming tungkulin. Pagkalooban niyo po kami ng malinaw na pag-iisip, bukas na kalooban, at madapat na puso upang hanapin at kilalani ng katotohanan ng walang takot o pagkiling. Sa gitna ng magkakaibang pananaw at paninindigan, tulungan niyo po kaming manatiling magalang sa isa't isa at magkaisa sa paghangad ng katotohanan. Ilayun niyo po kami sa galit, pansariling hangarin, at anumang maaaring humadlang sa makatarungan at makabuluhang pananaw. Pagkalooban niyo po kami ng lakas ng loob, na panindigan ng tama, **[00:06:54.430] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** ng **[00:06:55.300] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** karunungang timbangin ang bawat ebedensya, at ng pusong laging inuuna ang kapakanan ng sambayan ng Pilipino. Ito po ang taimtim naming panalangin. Sangalan ng Ama, ng Anak, at ng Espiritu Santo. Amen. **[00:07:10.940] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** The Clerk of Court will now call the roll. **[00:07:15.520] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Roll call of members. Senator-Judge Aquino, Senator-Judge Cayetano, Alan, Senator-Judge Cayetano, Pia, Senator-Judge Dela Rosa, Senator-Judge Ejercito, Senator-Judge Estrada, Senator-Judge Go, Senator-Judge Hontiveros, Senator-Judge Lacson, Senator-Judge Lapid, Senator-Judge Legarda, Senator-Judge Marcoleta. Senator-Judge Marcos, Senator-Judge Padilla, Senator-Judge Pangilinan, Senator-Judge Sotto III, Senator-Judge Tulfo, Erwin, Senator-Judge Tulfo, Raffy, Senator-Judge Villanueva, Senator-Judge Villar, Camille, Senator-Judge Villar, Mark, senator-judge Zubiri, the presiding officer, senator-judge Escudero, the senate president, senator-judge Gatchalian. **[00:08:00.770] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** With **[00:08:01.450] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** 17 senator-judges present, the chair declares the presence of a quorum. **[00:08:07.860] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** In accordance with the Rules of Procedure on Impeachment Trials, the Chair now recognizes the duly elected Presiding Officer to preside over the proceedings of the Impeachment Court. **[00:08:18.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Mr. Senate President. If there are no objections, we shall dispense with the reading of the September 1, 2026 Journal of the Senate, sitting as an Impeachment Court, and shall consider the same as approved. **[00:08:32.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The Clerk will please call the case before the Impeachment Court. **[00:08:36.620] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Case number 004-2026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. **[00:08:42.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Appearances of the parties. **[00:08:44.900] Rep. Joel R. Chua** Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearance for the public prosecutors. We're ready. For the respondent. **[00:08:53.290] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Good morning, Your Honor. Same appearance for the respondent accused. **[00:08:56.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Good morning, counsels. Today, you will present who again, Honorable Chua? **[00:09:04.330] Rep. Joel R. Chua** Attorney Michael Poa, Your Honor. **[00:09:06.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay, who will be handling the direct examination, Honorable Chua? **[00:09:11.490] Rep. Joel R. Chua** Your Honor, may we request Attorney Benjamin Tolosa, counsel for the public prosecutor, to be recognized for the presentation of our next witness, Your Honor. **[00:09:23.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Benjamin Tolosa. Junior. Junior is recognized. On the part of the respondent? **[00:09:30.040] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I will stand for defense, Your Honor. Thank you. **[00:09:32.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Sheila. **[00:09:35.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Good morning, Your Honors. **[00:09:36.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Good morning. Call your witness, counsel. **[00:09:38.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Just for formality, Your Honor, appearances, I'm Attorney Benjamin [unclear] Tolosa Jr., respectfully appearing as counsel for the prosecutors under the direct control and supervision of the public prosecutors. We're ready to proceed with the examination of Attorney Michael Wesley Poa, Your Honor. **[00:09:55.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So you're one of the counsel for the panel of prosecutors? **[00:09:58.970] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That is correct, Your Honor. **[00:09:59.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The clerk will kindly situate Attorney Poa to the witness stand. **[00:10:38.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The clerk is directed to administer the oath. **[00:10:46.030] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.** Please raise your right hand. You, Michael Wesley Poa, do swear that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. **[00:11:01.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, I do, Your Honor. **[00:11:03.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Poa, I guess you heard about the Chair's ruling yesterday with respect to bringing devices with you? **[00:11:09.280] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct, Your Honor, and I do not have any device with me, Your Honor. **[00:11:12.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Attorney Poa. Subsequently, the Clerk is kindly instructed to discuss this matter with the witness while he or she is in the holding area so as not to waste the Court's time on this issue or matter. Attorney Tolosa, your offer? **[00:11:30.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, Your Honor. **[00:11:31.660] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** We are offering the testimony of Attorney Michael Wesley T. Poa to qualify him. as a hostile witness and to prove the following. Number one, he is one of the vice president's most trusted men. Spokesperson, chief of staff, OIC ng finance, at head of the procuring entity ng DepEd. Naging spokesperson ng OVP at ngayon, defense counsel at legal spokesperson sa mismong impeachment na ito. Number two, He answered for 112.5 million pesos he knew absolutely nothing about. Sabi niya mismo, sa ilalim ng panunumpa, bago dumating ang mga AOM, wala siyang kaalaman o partisipasyon sa paggamit ng 125.5 milyong confidential funds ng Department of Education. 112.5 million. **[00:12:29.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ang **[00:12:31.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** tanging nakakaalam, ang vicepresidente, at si SDO Farda. Number three, the vice president chose him, the man who knew nothing to answer the auditors. Sa kabila noon, siyang inatasa ng vice presidenteng sumagot sa COA. Hindi ang SDO, hindi ang nagdisberse ng pera, hindi ang tumanggap ng pera, ang abogadong walang alam. Number four, his sources knew nothing either. Nilapitan niya si Fajarda. Itunuru siya kay Yusec Mempin. Inamin naman ni Mempin na wala siyang alam. Ang tanging nakalap, mga certifications mula sa AFP. Mula sa mga opisyal na walang alam sa mga umano'y impormante sa rewards o sa pondo ng DepEd. Number five, he gave COA mere theories and presumptions dressed as facts. Aminado siyang hindi niya alam kung paano ginastos ang pera. Sariling teorya at presumption lamang ang basihan niya ng gamitin ng mga AFP certification para patunayan ang payment of rewards. The certifications prove none of what the Joint Circular requires. Walang impormante, walang impormasyong binili, walang reward na ibinayad, walang matagumpay na operasyon, walang apat na hinihingi ng Joint Circular. Reward? Informer, information, successful operation. Number seven. He admitted it himself. There's no connection at all. Number eight. **[00:14:28.830] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** The cash trail led to a name he never once mentioned, Nolasco. Sa utos ng vicepresidente, ibinigay ni SDO Fajarda ang pera kay Colonel Dennis Nolasco. Ngunit sa lahat ng paliwanag ni Atty. Poa, sa COA at sa Kongreso, niminsan hindi lumitaw ang pangalan ni Nolasco. Number nine, he tried to soften the audit itself. Kasama ni Atty. Zuleika Lopez, Chief of Staff ng OVP. Hiniling niya sa COA ICFAU na huwag AOM ang ipadala. Audit query na lamang. Number 10. Different hands carried out the steps. One principal directed them all. Ang vice-presidente ang nagtalaga sa lahat ng opisyal na sangkot. Ang nag-utos kay Atty. Poa na sumagot sa mga AOM at ang mga nag-utos na ibigay ang pera kay Nolasco. Iba-iba ang gumanap. iisa ang nagutos. Number 11, the credit notice cured nothing. Nakalagay ito sa mga certification na walang pinatutunayan. Ang ebidensyang tahasang hinihingi ng Joint Circular 2015-01 hindi kailanman na ipakita. Kaya't nananatiling hindi maayos na liquidate ang more than 15 million pesos. Number 12, in the end, nothing was proven and no one could say where the money went. but every road leads to the Vice President. Sa dulo ng lahat, mga certification o walang pinatutunayan, mga teoryong walang batayan, mga pangalang itinago. Walang napatunayan at walang nakapagpaliwanag kung saan napunta ang more than 112.5 million. Ang tiyak lamang ay ito. Ang humingi ng pondo, ang nagtalaga ng bawat humawak nito, ang nag-utos na ibigay ang pera nito kay Nalasko, At ayon mismo, kay Atty. Poa, isa sa dalawang tao lamang may alam sa paggamit nito, iisang tao lamang. Wala nang iba kung hindi ang vice-presidente. Finally, number 13, such other matters as may be relevant to the instance. Please, Your Honor. **[00:16:43.710] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Comment, Your Honor. **[00:16:45.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Atty. Sheila. **[00:16:47.510] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Quite frankly, Your Honor, I don't know if the 13-point offer of the counsel deserves any reasonable comment considering that they sound really just rhetoric aimed to provide drama in this proceeding. But nonetheless, Your Honor, these are some of the comments that I have to the offer of the Council. As to the offer that the witness is one of the most trusted men, of the Vice President and that he answered for. That was the precise terminologies stated by the counsel for 112.5 million. This is quite misleading, Your Honor. In fact... The use of answered for appears to be— Your **[00:17:49.260] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Honor, excuse **[00:17:49.280] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** me. I am not going to finish your **[00:17:51.200] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** honor. **[00:17:51.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I **[00:17:52.580] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** allowed **[00:17:52.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the **[00:17:53.040] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** counsel to **[00:17:54.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** finish **[00:17:54.780] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** his 13-point offer, so I would ask the same courtesy to allow me to finish, Your Honor. I **[00:18:02.220] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** submit, Your Honor. Thank **[00:18:02.360] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** you. So this answered for 112.5 million is quite misleading and appears to be a deliberate use to imply or insinuate that the witness was made to provide just mere excuses to the auditors. In fact, if what he meant was to reply to the audit observation memorandum, that is different from answered for 112.5 million. And I think that's quite clear. And also, Your Honor, I don't think that... To include in the offer a statement that said, Ang abogadong walang alam is proper. Whether here or outside the court, whether we are trying an impeachment case or we're just talking to one another as fellow members of the bar. And I will even have to ask the court to strike this off the record. **[00:19:12.620] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can **[00:19:12.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I respond already, Your Honor, or **[00:19:14.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** we're not yet **[00:19:14.500] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** done? No, I'm not yet done. **[00:19:15.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Allow her to finish, counsel. Even I know **[00:19:17.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** she's **[00:19:18.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Not yet finished. **[00:19:18.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I submit, Your Honor. **[00:19:21.090] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you, Your Honor. Also, Your Honor, the rest of the offer that says cash led to a name he never once mentioned tried to soften the audit itself. Different hands carried out the steps. One principal directed them all. and the credit notice cured nothing when the documents themselves and as the prosecution had stipulated yesterday and an information that we can find from the official website of the commission and audit itself that the credit notice is an official document of the commission and audit issued to inform the agency that it has audited the funds and it has cleared those funds in audit or the expenditures in audit and therefore this credit This offer as to the credit notice, curing nothing, that's obviously a conclusion. And every road leads to the VP, obviously a rhetoric, but we nonetheless will subject all offer to cross-examination. Subject, of course, Your Honor, to my request to strike off the statement that abogadong walang alam. I mean, this witness. Even while he has an obligation to answer relevant questions in this trial, he also has, under the rules, Rule 132, certain rights. And one of those rights is to be protected from irrelevant, improper, and insulting questions. And not only that, also to be protected from harsh or insulting demeanor. Thank you, Your Honor. May **[00:21:04.210] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I **[00:21:04.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** respond quickly, Your Honor? **[00:21:05.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Noted, Attorney Sheila. Before the Chair recognizes Attorney Tolosa, we are checking the TSN before the Chair rules on the matter. Yes, Attorney Tolosa, your comment. **[00:21:16.580] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** For something that does not deserve a comment, that's quite a lengthy comment. But anyway, first of all, Attorney Poa, I hope you understand. There was never any intention on my part to insult you in any way. We have to take this in context. When I said, abogadong walang alam, what I meant was, in Congress, he repeatedly said he knew totally nothing about the use and liquidation of the confidential funds. Context is very important. But nonetheless, if I offended you in any way, sir, I'm very sorry for that. That's not my intention. **[00:21:48.720] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Very quickly, **[00:21:49.200] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor. **[00:21:50.000] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor. **[00:21:50.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Allow **[00:21:51.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Attorney Tolosa to **[00:21:52.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** finish. **[00:21:52.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, Your Honor, I will. Yes. And **[00:21:54.010] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** just to make **[00:21:56.830] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** this matter very clear, we've heard this from the defense with all due respect every time, either by way of objection or manifestation that the offer constitutes conclusions of fact or law. But let us be very clear. Witnesses may only testify on facts, cannot give conclusions of fact or law, but All types of evidence, either testimonial or documentary, are precisely offered for that purpose, to prove a point of fact or law. So there's nothing objectionable about that. So please, Your Honor, let's not belabor this point. With all due respect, let us proceed with the examination of Atty. Poa. **[00:22:34.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** In a while, Atty. Tolosa. Atty. Sheila, yes. **[00:22:37.640] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Just a very quick reply, Your Honor. As to the point on the excuse given for the statement, **[00:22:48.560] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** has in his vocabulary other terms for abogadong walang alam. If that was his explanation, he could have simply said that the witness has no personal knowledge and that would have been more respectful and more apt if that was the intention as he had said. Number two, as to his complaint about the comments of the defense to the offer every time that the prosecution will state their offer before the presentation of their witness that it was you know offered to prove some fact or evidence precisely. The offer must be geared for that purpose to prove a fact and not as a conclusion and not any speculation. That's all, Your Honor. Thank you. **[00:23:30.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Chair will make a ruling. Chair hereby orders that the phrase abogadong walang alam be stricken off the record. Chair finds it discourteous to say the least. Thank you, Your Honor. **[00:23:44.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** used in relation to a fellow lawyer, especially. Before I allow Attorney Tolosa to continue, just to save on the court's time, Attorney Tolosa, 3, 4, 5, **[00:24:02.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** 7, 10 of **[00:24:08.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** your offer all say that Attorney Poa knows nothing. **[00:24:15.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Why are we asking him to testify on things he does not know about? **[00:24:19.140] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's precisely the reason I want him to testify, Your Honor. Why is it that the Vice President passed one of his trusted aides to respond to the AOMs issued by the COA when he confessed that he knew nothing about it? That is very material. **[00:24:37.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You're equating knew nothing with having personal knowledge. **[00:24:40.210] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** About how... **[00:24:42.490] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, knew nothing, had no personal knowledge about how the confidential funds were, as he mentioned it, operationalized or used on the ground. **[00:24:54.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Sheila, are you willing to stipulate or admit that Attorney Poa is a hostile witness so as not to belabor that point anymore? **[00:25:02.890] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I think, Your Honor, it is a matter of record that the witness is part of the defense team and one of the lawyers of the vice president and it can be reasonably presumed that the witness will not provide on a plate the prosecution's theory and conclusions okay **[00:25:19.710] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** so insofar as offers one and two are concerned um Attorney Tolosa these are deemed admitted and stipulated namely that the witness is a hostile witness and that he is one of the trusted lawyers, advisors of the Vice President. You can proceed with proving your offers pertaining to Numbers 3 to 13. But before you continue, Chair hereby declares by stipulation of the parties that... Yes, Attorney Sheila? **[00:25:46.560] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Just for the record, Your Honor, I never stipulated on any... item in the offer, Your Honor. I think my understanding of the statement of the Presiding Officer earlier was that it was just to qualify the witness as hostile, Your Honor. Thank **[00:25:59.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you. So the Chair will proceed to declare Attorney Poa as hostile witness, therefore giving Attorney Tolosa the right to ask leading questions, but again as a reminder, not to ask misleading questions. You **[00:26:11.300] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** may **[00:26:11.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** proceed, Counsel. **[00:26:12.240] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your witness. Thank you, Your Honor. Before I start, just a few admin matters, Your Honor. We respectfully ask for a continuing authority, Your Honor, that it be granted to our assisting lawyer for today, Attorney Patricia Chon, so that whenever the need arises for it, that She may be allowed to approach the witness to hand some documents that we'll have to confront him with. The **[00:26:36.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** motion is granted. Similarly, assisting counsel on the part of the respondents may approach the witness anytime it may be necessary. Likewise, a similar authority for counsel to ask their tech or ask the tech. to show whatever slides they want to show in the course of the testimony and our direct examination of the witness. Proceed, counsel. Thank you, Your Honor. Sorry, Your Honor, just **[00:26:59.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** one more matter. Yes. That the same authority be granted to Attorney Lori Lee Mangio, who's also acting as my second chair for today, if necessary, Your Honor. Granted as well. Thank you, Your Honor. And just for the record, the documents that we will be using and confronting the witness with in his examination today, **[00:27:20.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** particularly the audit observation memorandums issued by the COA for the DepEd's use of confidential funds for the first, second, and third quarters of 2023 and the responses filed by Attorney Poa in relation to this as well as the different liquidation reports and its attachments that were filed by the DepEd. These are all exhibits which the defense have already agreed to stipulate under due execution authenticity. If I'm not mistaken, it was even Attorney Poa himself who entered in such stipulation. Just for the record, Your Honor. **[00:28:04.360] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Well, just for the record, Your Honor. Yes, **[00:28:07.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney **[00:28:07.740] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Sheila. The documents mentioned yesterday were stipulated on yesterday by the prosecution's or by the counsel. or by the prosecutor to the public prosecutors, Attorney Robles. **[00:28:24.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, those were the YLS certificates, Your Honor. But with respect to the COA-related documents, I mean other ones, the ones issued by COA and the liquidation reports, these were separately entered into stipulation on by the parties, again, if I'm not mistaken, by Attorney Poa himself. **[00:28:47.580] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I think, Your Honor, just also to set the record straight, the documents subject of the stipulation yesterday were the following. Number one, AOM number 2024-015, dated February 1, 2024, Marcus D-I-111-DE. And second, the reply to that AOM signed by this witness as Undersecretary and Chief of Staff, marked as D-I-79-DE. Third, the second AOM, number 2024-171, dated August 8, 2024, marked as D-I-110-DE, and the reply to that AOM marked as D-I-93-DE, as well as the liquidation reports with attachments, as well as the certifications. from AFP and the Philippine Army officers. Documents marked as D-I-1-DE, D-I-65-DE, D-I-56-DE, 82-DE, 81-DE, 80-DE... 33-DE, 84-DE, 94-DE, 96, 97-DE, 95-DE, and 100-DE, which is the credit notice dated August 8, 2024, Your Honor. Just to set the record. We **[00:30:16.660] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** confirm. Detailed clarification, Your Honor. Thank you. **[00:30:19.820] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you. **[00:30:21.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Are you ready to proceed, Attorney Tolosa? Yes, Your Honor. You may proceed. Your witness, again, to repeat. Chair already declared Attorney Poa as a hostile witness. You may proceed accordingly. Good morning, Attorney Poa. Good **[00:30:34.470] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** morning. **[00:30:34.830] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Good morning, sir. **[00:30:35.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Good morning, **[00:30:36.090] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honors. Good morning, Attorney Sheila. **[00:30:38.110] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Good morning, Jay. **[00:30:39.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Belated happy birthday, by the way. **[00:30:41.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Thank you. **[00:30:41.530] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I hope you don't mind. **[00:30:42.150] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you. **[00:30:43.090] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, before we start, Attorney Poa, both of us, you know the drill. We've already heard the presiding officer. qualify as a hostile witness, that means I'm allowed to ask you leading questions. So **[00:30:58.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** please **[00:30:58.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sir, I will have to request you, if the answers are reasonably answerable by yes or no, please do so, sir, because I would hate to have to cut you off when you try to give an explanation. And I'm sure you're very much aware, on cross, you'll be given ample opportunity to respond. But I'll be very fair with you. If you think the answer to the question is not simply yes or no, please let me know. I'll either reform it or give you a chance to explain. Sounds fair, sir? **[00:31:26.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** We'll see how it goes, sir. We'll see how it goes. **[00:31:28.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And again, **[00:31:33.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** just another request. I know pareho natin naiintindihan ng importansya na maintindihan ng mga kababayan din natin itong pagdinig ngayong araw. So, kung maaari lang... para hindi tayo mukhang dalawang abogado nag-usap, hindi na naiintindihan. Pilitin nating simplihan. But of course, without sacrificing your ability to properly articulate your answers, only to the extent reasonable, sir. **[00:31:57.540] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, I understand you. I understand your request, sir. And pipilitin kong simplihan din ang aking mga pahayag. Thank **[00:32:03.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you very much, **[00:32:04.220] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sir. **[00:32:04.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Thank you. Thank you. **[00:32:05.400] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, attorney po, alam niyo na noong **[00:32:14.160] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Nakalipas na linggo, the prosecution requested na mag-issue ng subpoena sa inyo para mag-testigo sa kaso na ito ukol doon sa pinag-uusapan nating confidential funds na nagkaroon ang Department of Education noong panahon na ikaw ay nanungkulan dito. Tama po ba, sir? **[00:32:33.240] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. Yes. **[00:32:34.380] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sige ho. So bago tayo pumunta diyan, I'm gonna have to check back a little bit. So, let's just talk about your work experience before going to the Department of Education. So you will agree, sir, that before entering the Department of Education, you had not less than 10 years serving different members of the Board of Trustees of the GSIS, correct, sir? **[00:33:00.890] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct, sir. Around 12 years, if I'm not mistaken. **[00:33:03.430] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you, thank you. **[00:33:04.090] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And your position there was Chief of Staff of these members of the Board of Trustees? **[00:33:10.810] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct, sir. **[00:33:11.750] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, sir. And then, while working at the GSIS, is it correct, sir, that in 2018, you obtained your Juris Doctorate degree from the University of the Philippines College of Law, sir? **[00:33:27.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct, sir. **[00:33:28.560] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And **[00:33:28.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** in fact, even while a working student, you managed to graduate ninth in your class, sir? **[00:33:35.530] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct, sir. **[00:33:38.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And you took the bar examination that same year, at pumasa kayo noong susunod na year, so you became a member of the bar in 2019. **[00:33:44.600] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Fortunately, yes. That's correct, sir. **[00:33:46.680] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. At dito naman tayo sa pagpasok ninyo sa Department of Education. So nagsimula kayong pumasok sa Department of Education bilang spokesperson with the level of Director IV noong July 26, 2022, sir. Tama ho ba yung petsa? **[00:34:05.930] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** July 25. **[00:34:07.250] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** July 25. **[00:34:08.090] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Kung tama po yun. I think based on my appointment papers, it was July 25, 2022. **[00:34:13.630] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And then, less than a year after, you became Undersecretary and Chief of Staff, Department of Education. Tama po, sir. **[00:34:23.350] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. April 1 po, 2023. **[00:34:25.710] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And then, a few months after, August 23, 2023. You also became an officer in charge under Secretary for Finance. **[00:34:34.590] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes po. 24. August 24 po yung ano. **[00:34:37.130] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you. Thank you. Okay. And then, again, a few months after, October 17, 2023. Please correct the date if I'm mistaken, sir. You became the head of the procuring entity or hope of DepEd. That's **[00:34:51.580] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** correct, sir. The date is correct. **[00:34:52.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And then you stayed there until July 19, 2024. **[00:34:58.500] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Once the vice president resigned as the secretary of the Department of Education. Tama po, sir? **[00:35:03.880] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's accurate, sir. Okay. **[00:35:06.120] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At the time that you entered the Department of Education, you were a lawyer for about four or five years? **[00:35:15.240] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, around that. **[00:35:16.320] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** time, sir. And **[00:35:17.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** during this time, in a span of two years, you had a series of... career progressions within the department, sir. Tama ako, no? I **[00:35:31.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** would say that, yes, sir. **[00:35:32.570] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tama ako ba, considering your experience at that time, based on your experience working in the government, masabi ko natin na medyo mabilis yung pag-appoint dito sa mga mataas na posisyon. Tama ako ba, sir? Well, **[00:35:45.030] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I cannot say mabilis. It was up to the appointing authorities. Tama ako, tama ako. **[00:35:50.210] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, yes. So, I don't want to give the impression that I'm questioning yung kompetensyon at the hires based on merit. Actually, may request the defense counsel to actually stipulate that the VP Sara Duterte's decisions concerning Atty. Poa's hiring a spokesperson and his progression to senior positions in the Department of Education were based on other **[00:36:21.370] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** among others, on his competence as a lawyer and his substantial prior experience performing executive administrative functions in the government. **[00:36:29.750] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I think that the proposal for stipulation has already been covered by the questions of the counsel, so I think this is unnecessary, Your Honor. Also, Your Honor, **[00:36:39.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** if I **[00:36:40.370] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** may finish. **[00:36:41.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And also, **[00:36:44.810] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, may I ask the court to just direct the counsel to ask. His questions and to refrain from making statements just so in the interest of time, we'll be able to really speed up the process, Your Honor. **[00:36:59.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Attorney **[00:36:59.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Jay, **[00:37:00.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** please proceed. **[00:37:01.010] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, but is this stipulation accepted? **[00:37:03.510] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I **[00:37:03.950] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** can stipulate, Your Honor, that the witness is competent. that he is trusted and that he is good at what he does, Your Honor. **[00:37:14.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you very much. **[00:37:15.110] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** As in the positions that he had previously held. **[00:37:19.490] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, and I'm sure the defense counsel will not object to this, that they're also willing to stipulate that he is an experienced and a highly competent lawyer. **[00:37:30.520] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I think that's a matter of... Are you... Asking for **[00:37:34.400] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** a stipulation, ma'am. **[00:37:35.320] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** That your **[00:37:36.640] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** co-counsel is an experienced and highly competent lawyer, ma'am. Your co-counsel. **[00:37:41.320] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Before I respond to that, may I now ask the prosecutor if they are qualifying this witness as an expert? **[00:37:49.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Definitely not. Those are two very **[00:37:51.460] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** different matters. Because that is the inference from the proposal to stipulate, Your Honor. That he is highly experienced and highly expertise **[00:38:01.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** in the **[00:38:02.490] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** work that he does, Your Honor, as a lawyer. So, earlier, they qualified him as a hostile witness and if they qualify him now as an expert, then that would give the prosecutor some leeway to ask him on legal matters. Hypothetical questions? Yes, Your Honor. **[00:38:23.590] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Honor. **[00:38:25.010] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** With all due respect, the defense cannot dictate on the prosecution the nature of the testimony of the witness. That discretion falls entirely and exclusively on us. If you want to present a witness as an expert witness or a denied witness, he may be the most qualified lawyer. But it's still our discretion if we want to use him as an expert witness or not. **[00:38:50.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Then counsel, then counsel— **[00:38:51.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the chair, Attorney Sheila, please. **[00:38:56.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** With your indulgence and patience. Then in that case, the chair will ask counsel to simply proceed with his questions because counsel, I find it irrelevant to be asking for a stipulation if Attorney Poa is good at what he does. I believe he is, but... Unless you will qualify him as an expert, so instead of going through these intramurals, share his ruling, kindly proceed with your direct examination already and go direct to your points. **[00:39:33.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** But with all due respect, his competence is highly material to this case. because it will go into the credibility of his statements. And of course, Your Honor, please, we be given some leeway because even if this is direct, because he's a hostile witness, this is in the nature of our cross-examination. So, we hope that we be allowed, we be given a wider latitude in examining this witness. **[00:40:01.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel, you do. You were asking for a stipulation which the opposing counsel refused to do. So, again, we've wasted enough time on these intramurals between you and counsel for respondent. Just proceed with your direct. The witness is there. The witness is smart enough to answer. **[00:40:23.510] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[00:40:26.690] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Let's proceed with your... So, let's talk about your duties and responsibilities as spokesperson. **[00:40:33.800] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, as spokesperson, your **[00:40:37.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** main responsibility was to communicate DepEd's official position on matters affecting the department. Tama ho? **[00:40:43.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama **[00:40:43.650] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ho po, as spokesperson. **[00:40:44.950] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. And in carrying out this function, of course, you dealt with upper management of the department. **[00:40:52.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, I did. **[00:40:54.090] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. And then, as chief of staff, you assisted the secretary in the management of the day-to-day operations of the department? **[00:41:01.710] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[00:41:02.390] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. In fact, Nag-conduct kayo ng weekly cluster meetings with the other undersecretaries. **[00:41:08.610] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[00:41:09.330] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And you also held regular quarterly meetings with the DepEd regional directors? **[00:41:15.230] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. As much as possible. Hindi kasi consistent, but as much as possible. Sige ho. **[00:41:20.610] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And in these meetings, is it correct to say that you represented the department secretary because you **[00:41:26.850] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** were the chief of **[00:41:27.390] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** staff? **[00:41:27.870] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I was the presiding officer, yes. **[00:41:29.630] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So in that capacity, you were there as representative? of the Department Secretary. Tama ho ba yan? Or at least some of them, maybe not all, but some? **[00:41:40.210] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Mahirap po kasing sabihin na I was representing the Vice President in those meetings, but I will just word it as accurately as I can. I was the presiding officer being the highest USECs of all the USECs there. **[00:41:52.870] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, thank you. And you would admit that as Chief of Staff of the Department Secretary, operationally, and as to policy, whatever happens in depth and goes through you. **[00:42:04.830] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Objection, Your Honor. **[00:42:07.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** What's the objection, Atty. Sheila? **[00:42:08.510] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Vague, Your Honor, by the use of whatever, Your Honor. **[00:42:12.030] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, these are precisely the own words of **[00:42:15.230] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Atty. **[00:42:15.670] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Poa and I'm sure he will recall it. Do I need to show that **[00:42:18.210] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** he has answered? **[00:42:18.890] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Then counsel must be precise too, Your Honor. But to ask a witness whatever that encompasses. everything and that is prone to misinterpretation, Your Honor. **[00:42:30.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** At this juncture, Atty. Sheila would have to overrule. I'll allow Atty. Poa to answer because I think he knows Atty. Poa is smart enough. He would know how to handle that question. **[00:42:40.560] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Kung ano yung day-to-day operations lang po ng DepEd in terms of its regular funds, yes po. **[00:42:46.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. Regular funds. **[00:42:48.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Don't **[00:42:48.920] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** jump the gun, sir. I'm not Just **[00:42:51.160] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** know where you're going, sir. **[00:42:52.560] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** No, no, no. That's not where I'm going. But to be clear, Day-to-day operations, as long as it does not, we agree on that point, as long as it does not concern confidential funds, you're aware of it. **[00:43:04.890] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[00:43:05.330] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, thank you, sir. **[00:43:09.470] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. As Undersecretary of Finance, your duties included ensuring proper management of the department's budgetary and financial matters in order to support its operations. **[00:43:18.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Only as OIC for a very short period, Your Honor. Yes. **[00:43:22.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And then as Head of Procuring Entity, Basically, you served as the approving authority for procurement matters of TEPED, no? As **[00:43:29.690] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** HOPE, sir, yes. Yes, sorry. **[00:43:32.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Did I misspoke? Yeah, but HOPE? **[00:43:34.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, yes, HOPE, meaning in terms of awards, notice to proceed, but had nothing to do with the procurement process itself because HOPE, as HOPE, you had to distance yourself from the bidding. **[00:43:46.410] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, that's correct. You act upon the recommendations of the Bids and Awards Committee. **[00:43:50.620] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. And the Undersecretary for Procurement, sir. Okay. Now, **[00:43:54.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** only if you could remember, Nung hung panahon na kayo ay hope, the department, and you were just there for nine months, sir, no? **[00:44:05.480] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** To be precise, October, sometime October, October 17, until I resigned in July 19. **[00:44:14.160] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So more or less nine months, sir, no? So during that period of time, As hope, the department entered into procurement contracts with an aggregate documented value of around 30 billion pesos. Just based on recollection. If you don't remember, that's okay. **[00:44:29.840] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I really don't remember, sir, the aggregate value. That is something handled by the USEC for procurement. Okay. **[00:44:35.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Also, if only you can remember the contracts that were approved by the DepEd during the time that you were hope. The largest components of these contracts included large-scale procurement of computers, smart TVs, laptops. Is that correct? **[00:44:48.240] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor. **[00:44:48.660] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Before the witness answers, **[00:44:49.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Sheila. **[00:44:50.620] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Relevance, Your Honor. Again, counsel had known from the very start that this is not about the regular funds, but the confidential funds. So I ask for the relevance of this line of questioning. We **[00:45:03.660] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** want to be able to show the level of trust. and the seriousness of the responsibilities that were placed by the Secretary on Atty. Poa. And this will be very material later. And we will establish that, Your Honor, when we get to that point. **[00:45:19.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You're on a short leash, counsel. We're wrapping it up. On the **[00:45:24.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** DepEd computerization program, sir, I believe that was one of the bigger contracts that I was present for as well. **[00:45:34.100] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, considering all of these responsibilities that we talked about, you would agree that these responsibilities, you were entrusted over important, sensitive, and consequential matters affecting the department? **[00:45:49.280] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Affecting the operations of the department, yes. **[00:45:51.680] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, sir? **[00:45:52.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[00:45:53.140] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, thank you. And these positions were imbued with trust and confidence of the Department Secretary. Correct, sir? **[00:45:59.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct, sir. **[00:46:00.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you. **[00:46:02.840] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, **[00:46:03.100] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** these different high-level positions in the DepEd, it was the secretary herself who appointed you to those positions, correct? **[00:46:11.920] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sir, it was the president who appointed me as undersecretary, as you know. But of course, upon the recommendation of the secretary, then it was the vice president. **[00:46:22.320] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ito kong pagganap nyo ng mga responsibilidad nyo para dito sa mga iba-ibang posisyon na pinag-usapan natin, meron ho kayong direct reporting relationship sa vice-presidente? **[00:46:33.540] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Meron naman po. **[00:46:34.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So kapag kailangan nyo ho siyang kausapin, hindi nyo kailangan dumaan through other officials, meron ho kayong direct access sa kanya. Tama ho? **[00:46:42.300] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[00:46:43.580] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At **[00:46:45.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** dahil ho dun sa nature ng posisyon nyo, of course, tama naman ho na... pati ho yung mga ibang officiales doon, pati mga empleyado, pwede ho silang mag-request sa inyo na gumawa ng mga bagay paukol sa inyong trabaho. Tama ho. **[00:46:59.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Can you please clarify the question, Your Honor? Ano yung mga **[00:47:04.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** pwedeng hingin nila sa akin? **[00:47:05.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** In **[00:47:05.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** general, any. **[00:47:05.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I mean, in its request, of course, it's optional on your part to either grant or not. But if it's just a request, even if their ranks are lower than yours, of course, that is okay. That's **[00:47:19.380] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** fine. **[00:47:19.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tama ho ba? **[00:47:21.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** May **[00:47:21.840] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** we ask the prosecutor to specify in his question the kind or the specific request that is pertaining to in his query. There's no need **[00:47:33.840] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** for that, Your Honor. The point of Attorney **[00:47:37.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sheila is well taken. So that the court will be appraised as well, Attorney Jay. What exactly are you talking about? **[00:47:44.910] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Any request, sir, in general, just of course pertains to your duties and responsibilities as official of the Department of Education, sir. **[00:47:52.310] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Well, that's my problem, Your Honor. Any request in general, Your Honor. **[00:47:56.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Example, Attorney Jay, babali ba yan? Kung babali siya? For **[00:48:00.790] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** example, **[00:48:03.310] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** mag-request ho ng sumama ka ho sa isang meeting. At ang mag-request ay isang kamukha nyo ho na same level nyo under-secretary or mas mababang empleyado. **[00:48:14.270] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Kung sa meeting, I would say yes. May mga ganyang request sa sumama **[00:48:19.210] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sa meeting. So ang request, pwede. Pero, dahil you directly reported to the Vice President, ibig sabihin nung noon, pagdating ho sa instructions, **[00:48:33.640] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** na pag-utos na gawin ng isang bagay, sabihan na gawin ng isang bagay, ang vice-presidente lamang may karapatan yan. Tama ho ba yan? **[00:48:42.440] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po. Sa totoo lang. We're **[00:48:45.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** talking about instructions and requests. Hindi ho. So, ibig niyong sabihin, meron hong mga ibang opisyal na pwede kayong utusan at hindi niyo pwedeng tanggihan sa loob ng Department of Education. I **[00:49:00.880] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** will object, Your Honor. This is misleading. Assumes facts not yet in evidence, Your Honor. **[00:49:07.500] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's not misleading because I'm not assuming anything because precisely, I'm asking him to explain if he agree with this or not. If he does not agree, he can say so. I'm not assuming anything. Reform. Atty. J, **[00:49:20.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** kindly **[00:49:21.220] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** reform your question. So pag sinabi niyong pwede kayong utusan, ibig sabihin ho ba nun kahit hindi department secretary, even if you don't report to that person, pwede kanyang utusan at wala kayong choice dito kung hindi sundan huyon? Hindi **[00:49:39.200] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** po. Same **[00:49:40.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** line, Atty. J. Kindly reform. Well, **[00:49:45.080] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** the witness has already answered. Your Honor, **[00:49:46.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I will just answer para matapos na itong issue na ito. Unang-una po, hindi po utos yung ginamit niyong word kanina. It was request. So, when you say request, then I have the discretion to say yes or no. **[00:49:57.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, yes. I think the witness is confused, no? We already moved on from the request, sir. Ang pinag-uusapan na ho natin ngayon, maliwanag ho, sabi nyo, request, of course, pwede ho yan, reasonable tayo. Ang pinag-uusapan na ho natin, yung kautosan, yung sabihan kayo na gawin itong bagay na to. Nandun na ho tayo, sir. So, ang sinasabi ko, yung kautosan, instructions na kailangan nyong sundan. ang vice-presidente ang pwedeng gumawa nito sa inyo. Ah, **[00:50:25.210] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** tama po. Tama po yan. **[00:50:26.570] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ayun. Salamat to, sir. Thank you. Maraming salamat. **[00:50:36.770] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, as chief of staff, you gave updates and received instructions to the vice-president on matters concerning the operations of the department, correct? **[00:50:50.890] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, that's correct. And **[00:50:52.330] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** as spokesperson, would you agree Is that before even giving interviews, you got instructions from the Vice President on what she wanted you to say? **[00:51:04.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Guidance. I would say guidance, Your Honor. **[00:51:06.200] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Not instructions, Sir? **[00:51:07.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Guidance. Okay. **[00:51:12.010] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[00:51:19.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Attorney po, naaalala niyo na umatin kayo sa isang pagdinig sa Congress noong November 5, 2024, Sir? **[00:51:27.270] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. At **[00:51:28.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sumagot kayo sa ilalim ng panunong pa, Sir? **[00:51:30.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Sir. **[00:51:31.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[00:51:33.160] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** May we ask, Your Honor, the tech booth to flash on the screen page 100 to 101 of the TSN of the hearing held in November 5, 2024. **[00:52:10.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** While we're waiting, Chair would like to make a record at para sa kalaman din po ng kapwa ko, senator-judges at mga nagsasabaybay, mahirap na nga po na may dalawang abogadong nagda... Kakaroon ng tagisan ng talino. Gawin po nating tatlo. Kaya pag-unawalan po at pasensya ang hinihiling namin ang party po ito ng proseso para mapangalagan. Hindi lamang ang karapatan ng respondent pero pati ng testigo. You may proceed, Atty. J. **[00:52:38.300] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, can we please zoom in to the portion starting so even a spokesperson. Kindly zoom in a bit more. **[00:52:51.510] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, I would just like to manifest na malabo yung mata ko. So if counsel can just read it, I will be happy to just believe you on it. **[00:52:59.090] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** May we also ask for the page number of this portion in the TSN, Your Honor? **[00:53:03.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** 100 to 101, I believe. But this one, which one is it, Atty. J? **[00:53:08.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You said earlier 100 to 101. **[00:53:12.120] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor. We're asking for the specific page number of this particular material being flashed on the screen now, Your Honor. **[00:53:49.160] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** If the counsel will confirm, Your Honor, we're able to locate this portion on page 101. From pages 100 to 101, Your Honor. **[00:54:00.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay. **[00:54:02.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Do you confirm, Attorney Jay? **[00:54:07.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I think the fact that you cut the paragraph into two boxes says that it does not belong to the same page. **[00:54:32.130] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Well, for the record, Your Honor, I heard Attorney Tolosa instruct their lawyer in the tech booth to take it down, Your Honor. **[00:54:39.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. **[00:54:39.910] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor. Yes, because I don't think So **[00:54:41.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the chair will confirm upon verifying with the exhibit on record with the court, it is found on pages 100 to 101 in the box. The two boxes accurately depict the fact that the lower box is contained on page 101. Proceed, counsel. **[00:55:04.470] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** We apologize for the confusion, Your Honor. It's actually page 162 of **[00:55:09.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** TSN data. Same **[00:55:12.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** date, Your Honor. Apologies for the confusion, Your Honor. **[00:55:28.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Are you sure, Atty. J? **[00:55:30.550] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, Your Honor. **[00:55:32.070] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor. **[00:55:34.030] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** 162, Your Honor. Is **[00:55:34.910] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** this what she wants me to say during the interview? Are you pertaining to that line? **[00:55:40.330] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. Let me read it, sir. **[00:55:43.420] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So even as a spokesperson, you're reading that portion, sir? **[00:55:47.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[00:55:48.180] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** When may balita and I need to get to an interview, honestly, I have to message with the Vice President at that time to find out every time what she wants me to say during the interview. **[00:56:03.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So what page is that, Attorney Poa? **[00:56:05.510] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That is page 163, top of page 163, Your Honor. **[00:56:08.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. Thank— **[00:56:09.470] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you, thank you, sir. **[00:56:10.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So **[00:56:10.470] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you confirm those are your words, sir? **[00:56:12.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor. **[00:56:12.890] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you, thank you. **[00:56:15.210] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** And that is why I said **[00:56:16.450] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** guidance. There's **[00:56:17.010] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** no question, sir. Thank you. **[00:56:22.990] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[00:56:24.910] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And for your other roles, you did not take actions that are contrary to her instructions, of course. **[00:56:31.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Of course. **[00:56:33.010] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And **[00:56:33.490] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** bago kayo gumawa ng mga desisyon sa mga importanteng bagay in general, of course, kinukonsultan niyo siya. **[00:56:41.430] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. **[00:56:42.350] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And in fact, you even get her approval kung importante yung pinag-uusapan. **[00:56:47.410] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, kung kailangan po ng approval niya, yes. Yes, **[00:56:50.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** tama. **[00:56:56.430] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, you would agree, sir, when acting on matters in your official capacity, you ordinarily made reasonable efforts to understand the matter before acting on it? **[00:57:11.100] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[00:57:11.760] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Kung ito pong bagay na to, meron kayong kailangan basahin at unawain muna ng mga dokumento, na batas, regulations, of course, binabasa't inaaral niyo muna ho yan. Tama ko **[00:57:23.240] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ba? **[00:57:24.420] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At bago kayo pumunta sa isang meeting, siyempre sinisigurado nyo naghahanda kayo bago mag-attend sa meeting na yan. Tapos **[00:57:31.000] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** kasama **[00:57:32.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sa paghahanda, inaalam nyo muna siyempre kung ano yung paksa na pag-uusapan sa meeting na yon. **[00:57:37.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** As much as I'm told, yes. And **[00:57:39.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** then, let's go to... Kapag kayo ay... your official communication on behalf of the department. Either in writing or verbally. Kapag kayo ay gagawa ho dyan ng factual representation, to the extent possible, sinisigurado niyong tama ho yung factual representation niyo, sir? **[00:58:06.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** As much as I can, siyempre po. Ayaw naman natin mag-misrepresent. **[00:58:10.760] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tama po yan, sir. I agree with you. At kapag hindi ho clear yung factual matter, siyempre, kakausapin nyo yung mga tao as much as possible na pwedeng makapagbigay sa'yo ng information para maliwanagang kayo. Tama ho? **[00:58:28.750] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Of course, as a lawyer, you know that your signature carries a lot of weight. Tama ho, sir? **[00:58:33.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Depending on the document that I'm signing, the nature of the document. **[00:58:36.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Of course. For example, in pleadings, no? Siyempre, ibaho yung significance niyan under the rules of court. But even in ordinary documents, tama ho ba? Hindi kayo basta-basta pipirma ng dokumento na hindi nyo naiintindihan yung laman nun? **[00:58:49.050] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[00:58:49.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. Oo. **[00:58:50.370] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So iniingatan ninyo bago kayo pumirma, sinisigurado ninyo muna na sang-ayon kayo sa laman ng dokumentong iyon. Tama ho, sir? **[00:58:57.790] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** To the extent possible, sir. **[00:59:03.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At **[00:59:04.320] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** kapag meron ho kayong piniprepara at pinipirmah na dokumento para sa departamento, kung meron ho kayong ilalagay dyan ng mga supporting documents, siyempre, babasahin nyo ho yung mga supporting documents na yan, no? Tama ho? **[00:59:19.040] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Binabasa ko po yung supporting documents as long as I'm allowed to do so. Yes, okay. **[00:59:28.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sige. **[00:59:46.470] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. Now, sir, we'll go to the AOMs, no, sir? **[01:00:02.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, again, as you've mentioned a while ago, we talked about the November 5, 2024 hearing, but you would recall that aside from that hearing, you also attended before the Committee on Good Government and Public Accountability of the House of Representatives on September 25, 2024, and... October 17, 2024, as well as November 25, 2024. **[01:00:29.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, in all hearings where I was invited, Your Honor, I attended all. Okay, thank you. **[01:00:33.450] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** For the record, Your Honor, these hearings, the transcripts of which the Honorable Presiding Officer already kindly granted our request to take judicial notice of, as well as the TSNs covering them. And just for the record, these were marked as P-Roman numeral-1-B-C-G and then as well as B, C, D, and G. Aside from that, sir, you also attended the hearing before the Committee on Justice of the House of Representatives on April 14, 2026, sir? **[01:01:27.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I confirm that, sir. **[01:01:28.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** For the record, Your Honor, the TSN covering this hearing was marked as P-R-1-2-F, and the Honorable Court has already taken judicial notice of this matter. **[01:01:42.960] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Also, Your Honor, just for the record, if I may be allowed to interject. Yes, Attorney **[01:01:48.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sheila. **[01:02:16.970] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** those TSNs or those hearings to assert the truthfulness of any record containing those documents. Just for the record. Yes, of **[01:02:27.170] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** course, Your Honor. And statements as well not made by the witness. **[01:02:32.650] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, correct, Your Honor. As per third-party statements. **[01:02:35.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** These are common exhibits. **[01:02:36.750] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, **[01:02:37.330] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your **[01:02:37.530] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Honor. We agree with that, Your Honor. **[01:02:42.370] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sir, would it be correct to say before testifying today that you familiarized yourself with the transcript of the stenographic notes of these hearings? I reviewed **[01:02:55.170] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** briefly the transcripts. Do **[01:02:58.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you have your own copy, sir? Or if needed, would you need us to **[01:03:01.850] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** provide you with copies? I did not bring my own copy. So if it is actually necessary, I would request that you provide me with a copy. **[01:03:11.890] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sir, as you know, a lot of the questions that I will be propounding to you now would revolve around the statements that you gave during those hearings. But, sir, I hope you understand. **[01:03:25.410] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I would not waste the time of the court by having to flash everything. And I'm sure if you could recall it without me showing it, you'll give the answer. But of course, sir, to be fair with you, anytime you feel there's a need for you to see the TSN, of course, please let me know and then I will show you the specific portions of the **[01:03:43.870] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** TSN. But if I can confirm it to expedite the proceedings, I will confirm it. Thank you, sir. Very much appreciated. **[01:03:52.850] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:03:55.570] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, let's **[01:04:04.590] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** start with... The COAS Audit Observation Memorandum No. 2024-015 dated Feb 1, 2024. **[01:04:16.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** May we ask that the document be flashed **[01:04:19.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** on the screen, Your Honor. This is P-Roman numeral 1-21-A for the prosecution. **[01:04:49.450] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sir, para mabilisaw tayo, you would admit that you're very much familiar with this document, tama ko, **[01:04:53.970] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sir? **[01:04:55.030] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Itong dokumento na ito, ito ay nagpapatukoy dun sa ginamit ng confidential funds ng Department of Education para sa first and second quarters noong 2023, tama ko, sir? **[01:05:06.470] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I confirm **[01:05:06.550] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That, sir. Yes, sir. **[01:05:07.870] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Nakalagay ho diyan na 37.5 million each per quarter o kabuuang amount na 75 million, sir? **[01:05:15.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:05:16.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ito ho ay naka-address kay Vice President Sara Z. Duterte, tama, sir? **[01:05:20.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:05:21.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. Dito ho sa AOM na ito, ito ho ay may kinalaman doon sa mga liquidation reports na sinubmit ho ng Department of Education ukol ho sa parehong confidential funds para doon sa dalawang quarters, tama, sir? **[01:05:39.000] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:05:39.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:05:44.060] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I'm sure para hindi na ho tayo magtagal, only if acceptable to you, sir. Hindi na natin isa-isahin, but basically, yung mga liquidation reports ho na yun, kasama ng mga certifications, you would agree, ang wala ho kayong pinirmahan dun sa dokumento na mga yun. **[01:06:02.540] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Dun sa liquidation report **[01:06:03.520] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** po. Sa liquidation reports lang ho **[01:06:04.680] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** tayo, **[01:06:05.040] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** sir. Wala po. Ang **[01:06:06.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** mga nakapirma ho dun, mainly, ang SDO, Fajarda, tama ho, sir? **[01:06:11.500] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. Edward Fajarda. **[01:06:12.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Edward Fajarda. Thank you. Tsaka ho ang Vice President ho, no, as head of agency. **[01:06:17.220] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:06:17.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And I think an accountant. **[01:06:20.140] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Accountant? **[01:06:20.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:06:21.160] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:06:21.920] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Now, noong natanggap nyo itong dokumento na ito, after a while, no, sumagot ho kayo dito? Dito sa Audit Observation Memorandum. Sumagot kayo. Kayo ang nag-file ng reply sa COA. Tama, sir? **[01:06:38.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:06:39.210] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** April 17. April 17, 2024. Ito yung P-1-21-B. For the record, Your Honor. **[01:06:49.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:06:54.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Now, babalik muna ako dito sa Audit Observation Memorandum. Tama ko ba dito? Ang purpose nito, basically, ang sinasabi niya, doon sa liquidation na ginawa ninyo para doon sa first two quarters ng confidential funds ng DepEd, ang sinasabi basically ng COA dito, naghihingi sila sa inyo ng karagdagang impormasyon at mga supporting documents para mapakita ninyo na compliant kayo doon sa requirements for liquidation under Joint Circular 2015-1. **[01:07:31.770] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:07:32.250] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:07:35.630] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Madami hong bagay na nakalagay dito, no? But let's concentrate on the one pertaining to payment of reward, sir. **[01:07:43.810] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:07:47.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. Dun sa paragraph number 3. **[01:07:58.990] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, ho. **[01:08:02.310] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ito, nakalagay dito. We noted that the payment... Payments of rewards to the informers in the amount of 7.5 million pesos for the period Feb 20 to March 30, 2023 and 8,031,000 for the period April 20 to June 29, 2023 for a total amount of 15,540,000 as reflected in the respective accomplishment reports were not supported with required documents specified in the immediately preceding paragraphs. Thus, non-compliant with the Joint Circular. Okay. So, aware kayo dito yung specific provision na sinasabi na hindi naging compliant yung payment of rewards na nakalagay dito. Ito yung 4.8.5.B of the Joint Circular. Yes, that's **[01:08:53.490] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. **[01:08:53.770] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. May I request— **[01:08:55.990] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** that that provision be flashed **[01:08:58.850] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** on the screen. **[01:09:02.980] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Okay. **[01:09:23.760] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can you please zoom in, please? **[01:09:38.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Para maliwanag tayo, ang sinasabi ng COA, nakatanggap kayo ng AOM, sinasabi niya hindi napatunayan pa sa liquidation reports na sinumiti ninyo na nakapag-comply kayo sa requirements dito. **[01:09:51.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, kulang daw po ng documentary evidencing success. Yes. **[01:09:55.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can you please zoom in a little more, please, sir? **[01:10:08.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, you'll see here, 4.8. Confidential funds shall be used only for defaulting confidential expenses. 4.8.5, payment of rewards to informers which should be non-employees of concerned government agency subject to the following conditions. So, A, this is approval by the head of agency. B, supported with documents evidencing the success of the information gathering and or surveillance activities on account of the information given by the informer. Tama ho, sir? **[01:10:47.710] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, po. **[01:10:48.430] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, this is precisely the provision, no? Nang hinihingan ho nila kayo ng proof of success. **[01:10:56.970] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ngayon, sir, ito hong provision na to, you would agree, no, that it requires basically three things, no? **[01:11:10.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** It requires, dapat ho nakalagay, supported with documents evidencing the success of the information gathering and/or surveillance activities on account of the information given. So maliwanag ho na dito dapat meron hong information given by the informer. Tama ho? **[01:11:29.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:11:30.670] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tapos if you'll correlate it doon sa 4.8.5, dapat ho yung binayaran na reward gamit ho ang pondo ng confidential fund, binayad ho yung reward na iyon sa informer para ho doon sa information na binigay niya. Tama ho? **[01:11:48.000] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's my interpretation. **[01:11:49.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. Oo. Tapos ang nakalagay din dito, so dapat meron ho information, binayaran yung informante ng reward para sa information na iyon. Tapos nakalagay din ho dito, dapat mapapakita din ho dito na meron hong success of the information gathering and/or surveillance activities on account of the information. Tama iyon, sir? **[01:12:16.600] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:12:17.480] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, sa madaling salita, dapat yung binigay na information na binayaran using a reward, dapat dahil dito sa information na ito, nagkaroon ho ng success doon sa information gathering and/or surveillance activities. Tama ho iyon, sir? Yung sinasabing success of the information gathering and/or surveillance activities, yung success na iyan, dahil iyan mismo sa information na kinuha sa informant. **[01:12:49.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Generally, and I say generally because hindi ko po alam. I— **[01:12:53.660] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** will ask that the witness be allowed to answer, Your Honor, because he hasn't even heard the first sentence of that answer, Your Honor. And now he's cutting the witness off. **[01:13:02.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** First of all, Your Honor, please, with all due respect, this is not just an ordinary witness. He is a very experienced and competent counsel. Second, not just any, Your Honor, please, let me finish, ma'am. Not just any counsel, not just any lawyer, he himself is the counsel in these very same proceedings of the respondent. So, we ask, Your Honor, that we strictly implement this provision. I mean, the rules of court, which requires, when leading questions, if they're answerable by yes or no. Pakiusap ko na lang, sir, no? You can explain later on. But please, if it's answerable by yes or no, it's okay. If you don't agree with that, I'm saying please say no. If you agree, please say yes. So I'll repeat it, Poser. **[01:13:44.110] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** No, I will respond to that since he invoked the rules of court. **[01:13:47.910] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Actually, Your Honor, there's nothing in the rules that provides for the allowance of questions that can only be answerable by yes or no. In fact, what the rules of court state is that The answers of the witness must be responsive, Your Honor. And **[01:14:07.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** so, the witness is not prohibited **[01:14:09.240] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** from giving responsive answers, Your Honor. Now, I am not dictating the prosecutor what to ask. I'm merely asking that he does not interrupt the witness because according to him, the witness is intelligent. The witness is smart. He can answer for himself. The problem earlier was that he cut the witness off in the process of answering when he doesn't even know yet what the answer of the witness is. **[01:14:35.080] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** May you respond, Your Honor, please? **[01:14:36.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Can you respond and then I want to hear from Attorney Paua as a third lawyer. **[01:14:40.060] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, Your Honor. First **[01:14:40.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** of all, **[01:14:41.400] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, it is **[01:14:42.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** clear under the rules that once the reason or the ground for the objection becomes apparent, you could already assert that objection. Second, The rules clearly state, as pointed out by the counsel, that the witness can only give responsive responses to questions. Hence, if the answer that you're eliciting is clearly, you know, the question is clearly answerable by yes or no, any answer that does not conform to that is not responsive. Hence, we may ask that it be stricken of the record if it's given or we may prevent the witness from giving it in the first place. **[01:15:19.500] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I disagree with everyone. Not necessary. Not in all. **[01:15:22.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So, Atty. Poa, what do you think? **[01:15:24.800] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, I will just say it's **[01:15:26.640] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** a qualified yes. There might be correlation. No, **[01:15:30.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** But let the Chair make a ruling first. Indeed, there is nothing in the rules that would limit or constrict a witness to a mere yes or no answer. And it should be responsive, as correctly pointed out by Atty. Tolosa. That's the risk you run with a hostile and intelligent witness, Atty. J. So the Chair will allow the qualified affirmative answer of Atty. Poa. So he answered your question, Atty. J., with a qualified yes in relation to the success of the surveillance activities in exchange for information given for which it was paid. **[01:16:11.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. Thank you, Your Honor. So when you say— **[01:16:13.910] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** qualified, are you saying that your interpretation of 4.8.5.b, you're saying there are instances wherein it is allowed that the evidence, that the supporting documents that you would present, it's allowed that that supporting evidence would not even establish the connection between the information given and the success of the information gathering. **[01:16:40.430] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** But, Your Honor, it's manifest that the question is argumentative. It also solicits interpretation or opinion on what the law says. **[01:16:51.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Reform counsel, it is argumentative. He may be a smart lawyer but at this juncture, you still cannot argue with him. **[01:17:00.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Reform, counsel. I know where you're getting at. You can get to it. **[01:17:03.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** We respect that, Your Honor, but with all due respect, because we've been hearing this objection a lot of times from the defense. A question, even if it presses the respondent or the witness, that does not automatically mean that it is— **[01:17:24.470] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** argumentative. A question is argumentative. **[01:17:27.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel, please. Chair already made a ruling and it's the first time Attorney Sheila used argumentative as a ground for objection. With the other witnesses, that's up for them. Again, I know where you're getting at. You can get to it, Counsel. We submit, **[01:17:40.510] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor. **[01:17:41.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Attorney Jay. Please proceed. **[01:17:43.450] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Actually, **[01:17:46.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, **[01:17:47.600] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I know what he's trying to say, so I can actually answer him intelligently. Can you help him, Atty. Paul, ready to abbreviate the **[01:17:53.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** proceedings? **[01:17:54.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I'm not saying na hindi kailangan may correlation yung success. Nung isusumiti mo na evidence of success, hindi kailangan may correlation. You're **[01:18:05.840] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** not saying that? I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is na hindi lahat ng informasyon. na binibili sa aking pagkakaintindi. Siyempre, pinag-aralan ko rin naman siguro to noong ini-interview ako dati dito. Hindi naman lahat ng binibili mong information ay necessarily magkakaroon ka kaagad ng success. So, yun **[01:18:24.110] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ang sinasabi kong qualified yes. Sige, **[01:18:26.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sige. So, ibig nyong sabihin, ang interpretation mo, kahit wala pang success ang interpretation nyo, pwede mo nang bayaran ang informant ng reward. kahit walang success. Your Honor, **[01:18:38.730] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** it's not misleading. **[01:18:39.850] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Precisely, I'm asking him to... Your Honor, **[01:18:42.810] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** every time the defense counsel speaks, she **[01:18:45.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** demands that everyone listens to her. Counsel, I cannot understand anymore the points you're raising. Attorney po, sampung informants binayaran ninyo. Ang sinasabi mo, hindi lahat ng sampung informasyong binigay ay mag-lead sa success. Yung lima siguro o yung **[01:19:06.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Walo? **[01:19:06.740] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, because, Your Honor, I'm saying that I have to clarify. Wala talaga akong personal knowledge sa operations mismo ng DepEd. So I'm answering based on my understanding, based on, of course, what I've read when I was trying to study. **[01:19:20.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Understood. You don't have personal knowledge. **[01:19:22.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi naman lahat— **[01:19:22.680] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ng information na nabili mo, obviously, will lead to success. **[01:19:27.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So that's what you're saying? **[01:19:29.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's what I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. **[01:19:32.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Sa sampung binayaran, hindi naman siguro lahat iyon kailangan mag-lead to success. Basta ultimately, yung surveillance was successful. Meaning, go on toward incident, as you defined it. Yes. Okay. Attorney J., move on. **[01:19:46.740] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, sir. **[01:19:47.220] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sorry, sir. I have to clarify that para sigurado ko lang kung naintindihan ko yung punto nyo. Ang interpretation ninyo bilang official ng DepEd na sumagot ho doon sa AOM, ang sinasabi nyo, again, tama ho ba, no? Correct me, of course, kung hindi tama yung sinasabi ko, just say no, no? Pero tama ho ba, ang sinasabi nyo, hindi kailangan para makapag-comply sa 4.8.5b, hindi kailangan na merong mapipresenta at all times, kasi nga sabi nyo qualified, no? Not at all times, hindi iyan kailangan at all times na itong binayaran na information resulted to success. **[01:20:29.670] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:20:30.810] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Simple lang. **[01:20:31.530] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Let me— **[01:20:31.990] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** premise my answer with saying that this is my interpretation. Yes, I understand that, sir. Unang-una, hindi kailangan... na pag bumili ka ng information, necessarily, pag nakuha mo yung information, it will result to success ka agad. Okay, that's **[01:20:46.340] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** okay, sir. **[01:20:46.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's my question lang, sir. Come on, sir. **[01:20:48.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Come on, Your Honor. I'm trying to explain. If you want the truth, I'm trying to tell the truth. Let **[01:20:52.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the witness complete his answer. **[01:20:53.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let the witness complete **[01:20:56.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** his **[01:20:56.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** answer, **[01:20:56.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. J. **[01:20:57.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Poa, **[01:20:57.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** please continue. **[01:20:59.840] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** hindi rin ibig sabihin na at the time na nakuha mo yung information and at the time that we needed to submit evidence of success, unnecessarily, may success na kaagad doon sa information na bigay mo. **[01:21:10.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So **[01:21:10.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** huwag ko nating paikot-ikotin, sir. Simpleng-simple lang. Ang tinatanong ko, at the time na nagbayad na ng reward, ang sinasabi nyo, para maging compliant dito, not necessarily, kailangang may success. **[01:21:24.480] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:21:25.220] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Iyon lang ho, sir. Paikotin ko tayo. Thank you, thank you, thank you. **[01:21:38.970] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. Sige ho. **[01:22:02.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, yes. Reward din sabi niya. **[01:22:27.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So tama ho ba noong pagtanggap niyo nitong dokumento na to, itong AOM na to? Siyempre ho, being the competent lawyer that you are, inaaral niyo ho, no? Yung Joint Circular 2015-01 para alam niyo kung paano sagutin ito ng tama. **[01:22:43.440] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes po. Yes. **[01:22:44.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:22:53.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And of course, di niyo lang inaaral. You relied on this very same Joint Circular when you prepared your reply, no? **[01:22:59.710] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. Along with, of course, consultation. **[01:23:02.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, sir. **[01:23:29.910] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, dahil ho dun sa sagot na binigay nyo na kahit na ito ho ay payment as reward to informant, sabi nyo hindi ho laging kailangan na naging successful ho yung informasyon na nakuha sa reward na to. **[01:23:48.950] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tama ho ba nung nakita nyo itong AOM na to? Ibig sabihin, para **[01:23:59.750] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sa inyo, hindi nyo na tinuntun kung nagging successful ba yung mga binayaran na rewards? **[01:24:09.170] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tinuntun naman po. So kahit **[01:24:12.630] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** natingin nyo hindi kailangan, sa pagkakataon na ito, tinignan nyo kung meron. Let **[01:24:18.490] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** me clarify na hindi ko sinasabi na hindi kinakailangan at all times. I'm just saying, based on, of course, this is based on consultation with the SDO na siya naman talagang may alam dapat so siya ang tinanong ko. **[01:24:33.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, **[01:24:33.930] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** definitely, sinabi ko pa rin na okay pero kailangan natin ng documentary evidencing success which is required under the JC. **[01:24:41.550] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, **[01:24:44.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** ibig sabihin noon nito, **[01:24:48.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Before we go there, would you recall the statements that you gave about your knowledge and participation with respect to confidential funds at the time that you received the AOM? **[01:25:06.870] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, that I did not have any personal knowledge. That's what I **[01:25:09.990] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** said. **[01:25:42.620] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Atty. Jay, **[01:25:43.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** as you're flipping the pages, I hope you're shortening your direct. **[01:25:46.500] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, Your Honor. **[01:25:47.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You're skipping, rather, some of the questions as I see you flipping the pages. **[01:26:10.990] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. You would admit that you said that during one of those hearings, your position—actually, you're very consistent on this—that you said, operationally, how it was used, you had no personal knowledge, referring to confidential funds. **[01:26:28.320] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I confirm that, sir. **[01:26:29.300] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At sabi niyo ho, tama ba ito? Please correct me if I'm wrong para huwag na nating hanapin yung mga TSNs. Basically, **[01:26:36.660] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you became involved in confidential funds of the DepEd only when you received the AOM dahil inaaral nyo na tapos sa iyo yung sumagot ng reply. Tama **[01:26:48.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ba ito? **[01:26:50.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ibig sabihin, malinaw, wala kayong participation sa pag-submit ng liquidation reports noon na una. **[01:27:00.150] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, noong natanggap niyo yung AOM, tama **[01:27:05.710] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ho ba iyon? Doon, hindi lang participation, doon sa pag-submit ng mga reports, iyon lang yung punto na naging involved na kayo. Kasi nga, sabi niyo, operationally, day-to-day, you're involved as COS but not confidential funds. So tama ho ba, any involvement that you had with respect to confidential funds, it started when you received the AOM? **[01:27:31.920] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** When I received AOM, yes, **[01:27:33.500] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sir. Okay, thank you, sir. Thank you. Thank you for that clarification. **[01:28:00.650] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, sir, **[01:28:02.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** naalala **[01:28:04.920] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** nyo ho, sir, na ang sinabi ninyo, so pagkatanggap nito ng AOM, ang sabi ninyo, noong una, linapitan nyo ang Undersecretary si Nolasco Mempin, no? Para humingiho sa kanya ng magagamit nyong proof of success. Tama ho ba yan? **[01:28:30.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sir, simple, sir, **[01:28:31.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** yung question. **[01:28:32.850] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama ho, sir. Kung chronological kasi, I can explain. But if that's just your question, yes, upon the advice of the **[01:28:38.030] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** SDO, yes. **[01:28:38.910] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:28:44.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Later on, sa sumunod na hearing, tama, sinabi nyo naman doon na ang SDO ang nag-refer sa inyo. Tama po. **[01:28:55.320] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tapos, ang sinabi dito, Para ho mabilis, I won't refer na since you're answering naman, very forthright. Sinabi ho ni General Mempin dito ho sa mga pagdinig na to na ang hinihingi niyo sa kanya ay kumuha ho kayo ng certifications nitong mga Youth Leadership Summit. Pero kayo ho, klinaro niyo, hindi niyo hinihingi yung exactong yun. You were just asking for any... proof of success. Tama ko ba yan? **[01:29:28.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Accomplishment report, sir. Ang hiningi ko sa kanya. Accomplishment report from the field. Okay. **[01:30:15.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, ito hung hiningan nyo nitong mga accomplishment **[01:30:22.790] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** reports, no? Or proof of success na si Usec. Mempin. Ano nga huga ang position niya sa Department of Education nung panahon na yan? **[01:30:32.890] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Nung panahon na hiningan ko po siya, he was Yusek for Administration. Okay, **[01:30:37.990] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** thank you. So, Yusek for Administration. At you would admit na itong si Yusek Mempin, Wala ho siyang personal na kaalaman din sa paggamit ng confidential funds. Tama ho ba? **[01:30:49.930] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:30:51.310] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At **[01:30:54.240] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** para bilisan natin, ito ho, noong hiningan niyo ho siya ng reports, ang ginawa ho niya, kumuha ho siya ng mga certificates from members or officials of the AFP. Tama ho? **[01:31:08.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yan po yung sinumiti sa akin. Tama po. **[01:31:10.240] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yan yung sinumiti niya sa'yo. At ito yung mga nanggaling, kanila Colonel Boransing. **[01:31:18.580] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Panopio, Bajao. And the fourth one, sir? **[01:31:22.920] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sangdaan. Sangdaan. **[01:31:24.380] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. **[01:31:24.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Okay. Sige. **[01:31:26.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At ito ho, tama ho ba? You would agree na sinabi ni Colonel Mempin doon sa hearing na nandun ho kayo na ito ho mga pinagkuhanan niya either colleagues or classmates niya sa PMA, sir? **[01:31:45.070] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yun po yung naalala kong nabanggit niya noong hearing. **[01:31:48.610] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And you have no reason to contest that, sir? **[01:31:52.330] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's **[01:31:52.810] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** a statement, sir. **[01:31:53.670] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** My question is, you have no reason to contest it. **[01:31:55.390] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I have no personal knowledge to contest it. Yes, thank you. Okay. **[01:31:58.690] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And para mabilis na ako, hindi ko na ipapakita isa-isa again unless you tell me that it's necessary. You will admit that they stated that when they provided this document, they did not know that they would be used to justify DepEd's use of confidential funds. **[01:32:19.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I remember them— **[01:32:20.580] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** saying that, sir. You remember saying that. Okay. **[01:32:23.200] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At maalala nyo din, sir, na sinabi nila, or at least to be accurate, I think one or two of them, sinabi nila, itong mga dokumento na ito, nung binigay nila ito, actually, ang purpose niyan, it's for attendance. Dahil usual na binibigay nila yan sa mga different agencies that attend their activities such as the YLS. Tama ho ba? **[01:32:48.690] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I remember one or two stating that. Yes, sir. **[01:32:52.950] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At wala ho tayong contest. I'm sure you agree na wala hong binigay kahit piso ang Department of Education sa AFP para maisagawa itong mga Youth Leadership Summit nila. **[01:33:10.230] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[01:33:10.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** sir. I confirm that. Okay. Sir, sorry. As to confidential funds, you were pertaining to as to **[01:33:17.060] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** confidential funds. **[01:33:18.800] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At **[01:33:30.810] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** maalala niyo, noong pinaliwanag niyo sa Kongreso, kung bakit niyo ginamit itong mga YLS, or let's call them AFP certifications, and when I say AFP certifications, nakakaintindihan tayo, ito yung mga pinag-usapan na sinumiti nila pertaining to YLS. So, the reason why you used this YLS certifications. Ang words niyo, it was on the premise that whatever activity was conducted on the ground by the military was targeted because of information received from DepEd due to those rewards given out. On the premise. Tama ko, sir, no? **[01:34:12.020] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. As stated **[01:34:13.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** in the documents. **[01:34:15.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's not my question. My question is, those were your words to Congress when explaining why you used those certificates. **[01:34:22.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[01:34:22.710] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's how you explained it. Tama, sir? Okay. **[01:34:26.410] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, in fact, you expressly described your view as an impression, tama ho, sir, no? As stated in that TSN, yes? **[01:34:33.030] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Impression, yes. **[01:34:37.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Inulit nyo ho ito, sinabi nyo, ang impression ko po, and again, this is just my impression, because the AFP received information from DepEd, the YLS was targeted to particular areas. Your word, sir? **[01:34:50.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:34:52.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And you even added, again, that is just my interpretation of the certification, correct? **[01:34:58.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:34:58.600] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And you even clarified, whether or not that is indeed the case, I really do not have personal knowledge of it. Tama po? **[01:35:05.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[01:35:06.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:35:12.000] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At noong tinanong kayo ni Congressman Keith Flores ukol sa bagay na ito, kung ano ang particular information na na-supply ng DepEd, tama po ba ang sagot nyo: 'Hindi ko talaga alam kung ano yung operation.' Tama ba? **[01:35:27.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tama ba. **[01:35:27.770] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And when asked where the connection came from, you called it your theory? **[01:35:32.690] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, **[01:35:33.210] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sir. Yes. **[01:35:39.120] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And in stating that theory of yours, you said, because of the information that DepEd was probably able to give the AFP. Correct, sir? **[01:35:48.480] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:35:48.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** You used the word probably also? **[01:35:50.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. Because I don't have personal knowledge. **[01:35:52.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. **[01:35:56.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So at that point, even if... Sabi niyo nga no, not necessarily may connection sa rewards. But assuming **[01:36:10.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** there are connection between the rewards, the information, the AFP activities, this is not something within your personal knowledge. Correct, sir? **[01:36:19.270] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It is not within my personal knowledge. **[01:36:21.390] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And it was, as you've mentioned, **[01:36:24.750] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** it **[01:36:25.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** was your premise, your impression, your interpretation, and your theory. Correct, sir? **[01:36:31.270] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. Based on the documents. **[01:36:33.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, thank you. Okay. So, matry ko i-summarize, masimple natin. Ang theory nyo, perception nyo, kaya ginamit nyo ho yung AFP. Please tell me if it's correct, no? Yung AFP certificates. Ang theory nyo, dahil sa impormasyon na nakuha, no? Or dahil sa impormasyon na binayaran, no? Paggamit ng confidential funds, no? Ito ay nag-lead ho ito ng **[01:37:08.140] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** It enabled the AFP para ho ma-target nila kung saan gagawin yung mga activities nila, particularly the YLS. Tama ho, sir? **[01:37:19.220] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, based on the documents kasi. Yan ang naging interpretation ko sa documents. **[01:37:22.800] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Based on the document that you saw, the certificates, yun ho yung naging teorya nyo kung bakit nyo ginamit yun, ano? Yes, tama. Okay. **[01:37:32.480] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sir, balik ho ako dun sa naging tugod nyo, dun sa AOM, ano? **[01:37:50.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** On page 3 of the document of the letter dated April 17, 2024, filed with the Commission on Audit, can we please flash it? **[01:38:04.620] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Paragraph 3, upper hand portion of the document. **[01:38:35.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sir, do you need a copy of the letter, sir? **[01:38:37.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, I think I can remember. **[01:38:38.600] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** what I said, sir. Thank you, thank you. **[01:38:42.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Habang iniintay natin, I'm going to read it, sir. on the finding that payment of rewards to informers must be supported with documents evidencing success of the information gathering and or surveillance activities on the account of the information given by the informer. **[01:39:03.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Financial rewards were given to informers for leads and/or integral information received, which in turn allowed the department to formulate narrowly targeted programs, information campaigns, and interventions against recruitment, violent extremism, and other criminal activities in specially identified communities. Now, let's go exactly with respect to the AFP certificates. Attached hereto as Annex B-1 to B-4 are the certifications. These certifications refer to those AFP certificates we've been discussing, sir. Yes, the four certifications. So, certifications issued by relevant partner agencies evidencing the success of various programs, projects, and activities directly resulting from the information provided by informers during the specific period. Sir, clear dito sa letter ninyo, hindi nyo na ho sinabi dito, like what you said a while ago, that it was just based on your theory. Wala ho tayong makitang word na ginamit nyo yung theory dito, tama, sir? Yes or no, please, sir. **[01:40:11.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Already answered, counsel. **[01:40:16.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Witness answered, yes. **[01:40:17.560] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, thank you, sir. You also did not use the word presumption, no? Just like what you explained in Congress. **[01:40:23.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:40:23.860] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. And, in fact, you will admit that these theories, presumptions that you had, you presented them as facts when you responded to the AOM. Correct, sir? **[01:40:33.560] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Well, argumentative, Your Honor. That's not argumentative. Very clearly argumentative. And, in fact, imputing a motive on the witness, Your Honor. I **[01:40:42.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** will have to disdain the objection, counsel. Reform or move on. **[01:41:04.420] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So **[01:41:13.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** this is your statement here, again, which we've just read. Activities directly resulting from the information provided by informers during the specific period. This so-called information, you have no knowledge whatsoever what that is, right? **[01:41:29.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** The information that was exchanged? **[01:41:31.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:41:31.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** This— **[01:41:31.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** information that you referred to? **[01:41:33.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[01:41:33.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. Okay. **[01:41:43.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, to be fair with you, Sabi nyo ano, at first you said it was just based on your presumption, it was your theory, but this was before you heard the explanation of the AFP officers. Correct, sir? **[01:42:00.180] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, sir. I said that after they actually already explained. **[01:42:03.560] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ah, so they **[01:42:04.480] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Already— **[01:42:04.560] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** During the course of the hearing, di ba? Okay, sir. **[01:42:07.140] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ganun ho ba? Akala ko kasi, ang paliwanag nyo, while you're preparing that letter, Yun yung pinapaliwanag nyo, no? Kung bakit nyo ginamit yung AFP certificates. Kasi nga, ang presumption nyo, teorya nyo, as what we've explained, meron kayong binayaran na impormasyon dahil sa impormasyon na to, naisagawa itong YLS activities. So, naedyo na gulo na ko, no? Ang sinasabi nyo, itong teorya nyo, nabuo nyo lang after nyo na marinig yung AFP officers? **[01:42:36.880] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, no, no, sir. I think this is... I think I'll need to explain if, of course, the Honorable Court will allow, and of course, if you will not object to me trying to explain. **[01:42:46.590] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tama ho ba? Nung sinabi niyo ho na yung ginamit niyo yung words kanina, it was based on your presumption, it was your theory, ang sinasabi niyo ho doon, nung ginamit niyo yung AFP certificates, inattached niyo sa letters, yun ho yung pinapaliwanag niyo. kung bakit nyo sila ginamit. **[01:43:02.910] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, dahil wala akong personal knowledge. Kaya kailangan ko sabihin impression. **[01:43:07.090] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Tama, tama, sir. Tama, **[01:43:08.130] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** tama. Okay. **[01:43:09.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, ngayon, kaya nga ang sinasabi ko, at that time, you just relied on your presumption and your theory kasi at that time na sinubmit mo yung letter mo sa COA, hindi mo pa naririnig yung explanation ng AFP officers. Tama ba? **[01:43:25.470] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po. **[01:43:26.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ah, narinig nyo na yung explanation? **[01:43:28.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Explanation? **[01:43:28.090] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, no, no. That's not the way it is, sir. Kaya ko siya sinabing theory kasi siyempre, noong time na nag-submit ako ng explanation sa COA, wala akong personal knowledge and I'm just basing it on the document, the certification. So ang tanong doon, ano yung train of thought ko? Bakit ko siya in-attach? So that's why I used the word theory. It has nothing to do with the chronology on whether I heard the explanation of the AFP officers before or after. Sorry, I hope you understand where I'm coming from. **[01:43:54.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** also. Yes, **[01:43:55.230] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** of course, of course, of course. **[01:43:55.910] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Thank **[01:43:56.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you for clarifying. So, ngayon, nung narinig nyo na yung explanation nila, sa harapan nyo nagtestigo sila. Sinabi nila, hindi ginamit ang pera ng DepEd. At ang sinabi nila, you will recall, wala silang ginamit na information na nakuha from any informant na binayaran ng DepEd para maisagawa ito. This is new information to you. That's what I was getting at. Tama ko ba iyon? **[01:44:30.660] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I have an objection, Your Honor. **[01:44:32.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** What's your objection? **[01:44:32.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** counsel? **[01:44:33.460] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** There's a statement in the question that is actually misleading, Your Honor. I do not remember. Any of the two witnesses yesterday from the AFP or Philippine Army saying that there was no information that was used coming from the Department of Education. In fact, that was a rejected stipulation yesterday. I **[01:44:51.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** would have to sustain, counsel. There was no such statement. Quite the contrary. Two of the certifications said that they got information from DEPED, specifically the certification issued by Colonel, as pointed out by the Senate President in his questioning intervention yesterday. in the certification of Colonel Panopio. **[01:45:12.320] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you, Your Honor. Reform **[01:45:13.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** counsel. Okay, in that case, **[01:45:15.180] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, may we request that that **[01:45:27.570] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** video number 11 be played, Your Honor, by the tech booth. **[01:45:33.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. This video, Your Honor, shows a portion of that hearing held on October 17, 2020, sorry, October 17, 2024, Your Honor, before the CGGPA of the House of Representatives. **[01:45:50.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So **[01:45:57.370] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Ang sinasabi mo is that AFP conducted these seminars because you gave them the information that this sector is vulnerable? **[01:46:10.550] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Not me per se, but that is the theory, Your Honor. **[01:46:14.070] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** AFP. **[01:46:16.860] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Colonel Boransing, sir. **[01:46:19.360] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Colonel Boransing, you are recognized. **[01:46:21.840] Col. Manaros M. Boransing II** Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair. **[01:46:24.480] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** When the YLS was conducted in your area by your division, **[01:46:28.690] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** You conducted it because it was a regular program of your division. Tama po ba? **[01:46:34.990] Col. Manaros M. Boransing II** Yes, Mr. Chair. **[01:46:36.070] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Yes. Now, how about you, Colonel Panopio? **[01:46:40.620] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Did you conduct a YLS in your area with your division or with your battalion because it is a regular program of your battalion or FDFB? **[01:46:49.340] Col. Magtangol G. Panopio** Yes, Your Honor, Mr. Chair. **[01:46:50.380] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** See? Mr. Poa, do— **[01:46:54.420] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** You want me to ask the others? They will still be giving me the same answers po. **[01:46:59.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Mr. Chair. Your Honor, I am not in a position to really tell you kung talaga ba— **[01:47:07.330] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Then who is in a position to tell me that? **[01:47:10.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sino? **[01:47:12.450] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It would probably be the Secretary, Your Honor, or the ones that are responsible for the confidential funds. Kasi wala naman po talaga. And again, I'm under oath. Wala po talaga akong— **[01:47:23.330] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Who is responsible for the confidential funds? **[01:47:26.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, the Secretary and the SDO are the only ones that are privy. **[01:47:31.530] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** They would have been here to answer these questions. Para mas malinaw po, kasi right now everyone is really confused, no? Una, why will you be using certification for activity of another unit? Tama ba? It's confusing, right? If it's just between us nga, it's confusing. Now, if you hear the answers of the AFP, silang lahat had nothing to do with DepEd. When they conducted the YLS, it had nothing to do with DepEd. It was their own programs that they were pursuing. Now, here comes Usec. Mempin collecting the certifications from the activities conducted by AFP, submitting it to you, and you submitting it to COA to justify your expense. **[01:48:08.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor. **[01:48:09.300] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** It's wrong, di ba? **[01:48:10.540] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, but— **[01:48:11.340] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** From all— No matter how you look at it, it's so wrong. **[01:48:15.800] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. Mr. Chair? **[01:48:17.900] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** Yes, please proceed. **[01:48:19.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** But, yes, but actually, that's really what happened, Your Honor. **[01:48:22.760] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** So ang sinasabi mo is that AFP conducted these— **[01:48:35.000] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** May I ask if there is a question from the playing of this video, Your Honor? **[01:48:38.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** None yet, counsel, I believe. **[01:48:41.740] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I'm going to ask him questions, of course. Can we please flash the TSN, Your Honor? **[01:49:01.860] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, Mr. Counsel, may I request for just a copy just because I cannot read **[01:49:06.800] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** the TSN on the screen. **[01:49:09.860] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** A copy or just read it to him, Atty. J? You can also read it to him if you wish. Okay. Sige. So, as we've heard a while ago, **[01:49:24.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Representative Flores, **[01:49:31.750] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:49:34.300] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Now, if you hear the answers of the AFP, silang lahat had nothing to do with DepEd when they conducted the YLS. It had nothing to do with the DepEd. It was their own programs that were pursuing. Now, here comes Yusek Mempin, collecting the certifications from activities conducted by AFP, submitting to you, and you submitting it to COA to justify your expense. Again, it's wrong, diba? Can we please flash it? **[01:50:04.090] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Page 129, Your Honor. **[01:50:12.330] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sorry, 131. **[01:50:15.890] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, **[01:50:42.510] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** here we go. **[01:50:46.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can you please zoom in to that portion? It was stated, it's **[01:50:55.950] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** wrong, diba? Let's take a look at the response given by the witness, please. **[01:51:08.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can we zoom in, please? **[01:51:18.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[01:51:18.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Representative Flores, it's wrong, di ba? Answer, Mr. Poa. Yes. That was your response, Atty. Poa? Yes, but. Yes, Your Honor? Yes, yes, I will get there. I will get there. But then you said, but? Okay. Ito yung sagot nyo, no? Please proceed. Una, Representative Flores stated, no matter how you look at it, it's so wrong, no? And then there was answer, Mr. Poa, but yes, factually, so this is the but that you're referring to. That's really what happened, Your Honor. I really got the certifications, I got the documents, evidencing payment, the debts, which are the acknowledgement receipts, I attached them because that's what COA was looking for and submitted to the COA. When you said but, you did not, based on this, you did not change your answer that it's wrong, using those certifications. What you just said, when you said yes, ang sinasabi mo lang, pero wala kasi akong personal knowledge, kaya ginamit ko pa rin ito mga ito. Tama ho ba? **[01:52:24.130] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** That's argument, Your Honor. **[01:52:26.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let the document speak for itself, Counsel. That was the witness answer under oath. **[01:52:30.730] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** And also, Your Honor, may I just give a quick moment to manifest something important, Your Honor. This is exactly what the presiding officer prohibits. in its earlier ruling when it granted the motion to take judicial notice. We can review the journal. It says there that this court will not allow the reading of third-party statements not of that witness, Your Honor. That's what's been happening. Your Honor, it's precisely statements. Allow **[01:52:59.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney **[01:53:00.720] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Sheila to finish. Started with the playback of the TSN, of Congressman Flores. and repeated the statement, his statement from the TSN, etc., etc. And in fact, this entire line of questioning, this is another ground for objection to these questions from the prosecutor. It's non-sequitur, Your Honor, because if you take a look at this document, the questions of Representative Flores to Attorney Powa in that hearing was different from the question that he asked of the AFP officers. To Atty. Powa, the question was about the information, about the intelligence information. But to the AFP officers, the TSN clearly shows that his question was, regular program niyo **[01:53:51.300] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** po ba ito? wala pong anuman na nasabi sa TSN na ito ng tanong ni Representative Flores ay tungkol sa impormasyon. Natural, sasagot yung AFP officers tungkol sa kung regular program ba nila ito. Hindi naman tinanong ni Representative Flores kung walang impormasyon na nakuha mula sa Department of Education, Your Honor. **[01:54:13.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I have a longer litany, but Attorney J., what do you say? I think at this point, it's **[01:54:20.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** really clear. This is not an opportunity that should be used by the defense to pontificate, argue their position. **[01:54:28.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's too much already. Under the rules, if you're objecting to my question, just state the objection. No need to pontificate and explain your theory of the case. Second, Yes, precisely. It is very clear. The order of this honorable court, when it took judicial notice of these TSNs and videos, it's only of the fact that they happened, that these statements were uttered. But, it does not constitute proof of the truth of these statements. That is precisely, we have this very own witness here today, whose statements we just watched. But, again, Your Honor, please. I don't... **[01:55:10.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Chair will make a ruling, **[01:55:12.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** counsels, please. **[01:55:14.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney J., the prosecution has had its fair share of pontificating. I think you're still ahead by **[01:55:22.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** a **[01:55:22.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** couple compared to the respondent. I'm using your words. You're still ahead. **[01:55:31.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Number two, insofar as the statements of the Honorable Flores is concerned, that is covered by the chair's ruling, which you kept on repeating. And number three, I would have to say that it's misleading, counsel, because I have to sustain the objection on the ground that it's misleading, counsel, because although those were statements made in the CGGPA and Committee on Justice, The statements made by the witness presented here, namely Colonel Boransing and Colonel Panopio, and the certifications submitted and made part of the records, all state that there was collaboration between the DepEd and the AFP, those signing the certifications, and that for two certifications, I believe, one of Panopio and the other of Sangdan. said that they got information from the DepEd insofar as identifying the areas is concerned. Regardless of what they answered there, again, we only gave judicial notice as to the fact that they said those statements, not as to the truth of those statements. From the point of view of this court, so far that's what we have. **[01:56:50.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Unless you intend to call them to dispute that? So far, that's what we have. So kindly, reform counsel. Your Honor, with **[01:56:58.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** all due respect, we have to show the question propounded by Representative Flores to show context so that we will understand what it is that the witness was responding to. Second, the point there is the concession given by the witness when asked, mali ito, di ba? tama. That's the main point there. But we will move on, Your Honor. **[01:57:23.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Move on, counsel, chair, the lady may the ruling. May **[01:57:27.330] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** we ask you also, Your Honor, to take booth. Please play video number one. This shows portions of the hearing conducted on October 17, 2024. **[01:57:52.360] Rep. Jonathan Keith T. Flores** For me, forgive me po. Ang labo kasi na you're saying na ito yung information that we gathered using this reward money, supposedly. **[01:58:04.740] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** May I ask that this be paused for a while, **[01:58:08.180] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor? **[01:58:08.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly pause it. **[01:58:11.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Attorney Sheila. I think the court **[01:58:14.200] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** just ruled a moment ago, Your Honor. This cannot be replayed and used to confront the witness because as far as this witness is concerned, This remains to be a third-party declaration, Your Honor. **[01:58:28.830] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, third-party declaration. We can see Attorney Poa right there. That was him testifying. But, **[01:58:36.110] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, the playback right now is not of Attorney Poa but of Representative Flores **[01:58:41.050] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** speaking, Your Honor. **[01:58:41.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Again, Your Honor, it's context so we will understand. the answer given by Atty. Poa. Are we saying we can't believe the answers given there by the witness that we're watching right now, her co-defense counsel, Atty. Poa? **[01:58:55.960] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Then, Your Honor, all the counsel has to do is to confront the witness with the answer he gave. **[01:59:02.810] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's precisely what we're trying to do. But to give context, of course, we have to see the question first so that we will know the context of that answer. There was no ruling stated by the Honorable Court preventing us from showing these videos, Your Honor. Counsel, **[01:59:18.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** counsels, please. We're nearly about to break for lunch. Lower it down a notch. **[01:59:28.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Jay, you can just ask attorney po. You remember being asked and answering in this manner? Again, because clearly, Attorney Jay, the Honorable Flores, whom I see there, if I'm not mistaken, is making, or at that time was making, some conclusions and clear accusations which we will try to avoid in this court unless you want to present the Honorable Flores. So kindly phrase... or this chair can do it so that we can get somewhere before we pause for lunch. Ask the question that the Honorable Flores asked and let the witness answer without showing that video of the Honorable Flores anymore, counsel. **[02:00:17.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Please proceed accordingly, counsel. **[02:00:20.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You have the TSN with you. **[02:00:23.580] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I'm very sorry, Your Honor, but I will have to most respectfully ask for reconsideration. There is no such thing, counsel. Only a **[02:00:34.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** member of the court can seek a reconsideration or appeal from the ruling of the chair. Kindly proceed, counsel. **[02:00:38.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** The reason why we're showing this, it's because the TSN was not able to faithfully capture what was shown in that video. So, for purposes of accuracy, we need to see that video. Now, if we will just limit what we will show, to the answers given by Atty. Poa. It will not make any sense. For example, we will start with the part where he said, Yes, Your Honor. **[02:01:09.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, no one will understand what he was saying yes to. The question is precisely very important and it's **[02:01:18.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** part of the answer. **[02:01:18.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, Atty. Jay, ask Atty. Poa, when you were asked during the hearing, so on and so forth, **[02:01:25.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** do **[02:01:26.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you remember your answer and response? **[02:01:30.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, proceed counsel. **[02:01:33.250] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, I think on their cross-examination, they were allowed a lot of times to show videos and confront our witnesses with those videos on cross-examination. I'm on direct examination. I'm allowed to show previously inconsistent statements. And that's what I'm trying **[02:01:54.010] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** to do, Your Honor. **[02:01:55.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, counsel, inconsistent statement by Atty. Poa, not by the Hon. Flores. Again, counsel, please move on. **[02:03:42.230] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Representative Flores, this is on page **[02:03:46.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** 131. **[02:03:51.410] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** 131, Your Honor, of October 17, 2024. You were asked, ang labo kasi na you saying na ito yung information that we gathered using the reward money supposedly and that in effect the AFP conducted the seminars. Tama po ba? Yes, Your Honor. But from the testimonies that you've heard, walang koneksyon. This is precisely the problem, Your Honor. It is not reflected in the TSN. That's why we were hoping to show it, to show the video so we will see exactly what he said. But now, we have to supply our own transcription. And he could confirm if these were his words. But the testimonies that you've heard, walang connection whatsoever ang activities nila sa iyong activities na sinasabi mo. Yes, Your Honor, and your justification is Although at that time, hindi ko naman po alam na ganon ang sinasabi nila. Your word, sir. Yes or no, please. Yes, yes. Yes, thank you. Your Honor, in that note, Your Honor, may we request for recess or ready for lunch before we proceed to the continuation of our direct? **[02:05:04.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Surely. Is the other witness there? Counsel, would you know? Yes, Your Honor. How much longer will it take you to wind up your direct counsel once we resume? Just to be able to plan if we will reach the next witness or not. **[02:05:21.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I will try to... Without **[02:05:24.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** shortening counsel, without **[02:05:25.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** pressuring you to **[02:05:26.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** shorten. I **[02:05:26.880] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** will try to finish in an hour. I will try my best to finish in an hour, Your Honor, please. **[02:05:31.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay, we shall break for lunch and perhaps still have the opportunity to watch Alex and shall resume. Tapos na ba? **[02:05:43.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tapos na ba? And we will try... We shall call a recess and resume at 12.45. **[02:56:33.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Poa, **[02:56:36.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** paumanhin kung naantala yung pagkain. According to the Clerk of Court, na late lang daw, pero for the information also of Atty. Lorna, may pagkain po dun sa holding area, but today it was inordinately late, even for the staff. But there is and there should be. But kindly inform us too if there is any delay. or absence of refreshments and or food at the holding area for witnesses. **[02:57:04.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Thank you, Your Honor. **[02:57:06.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Our due apologies, Atty. Naunawaan ninyo po na kayo'y patuloy ng tatestigo [unclear] kaninang umaga? **[02:57:13.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. **[02:57:13.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You may proceed, Atty. J., with the continuation of your direct examination. **[02:57:18.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you, Your Honor. **[02:57:25.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Again, Atty. po, sabi nga natin para subukan natin mas pabilisan pa as much as possible. Hindi na natin huwi pa flash. If you could recall, just confirm na lang if those are your statements. Yes, sir. **[02:57:36.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I will **[02:57:37.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** cooperate. Thank you. Thank you, sir. So, again, going back to the certifications, would you confirm, sir, that in those hearings, you mentioned that when you submitted the certifications to the COA, you took them as is? **[02:57:52.020] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[02:57:52.640] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. And in fact, when you used them, you said you weren't even sure if they would suffice. Yes, **[02:57:59.300] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** sir. Correct, **[02:57:59.640] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sir? Okay. Now, para hindi na natin isa-isahin pa itong mga dokumento na ito, you would agree, dito sa mga dokumento na ito, again, I'm referring to the AFP certificates, no? None of them identify who are the rewarded informers, no? Yes. Of course, yes. It also does not identify what particular information was supposedly purchased with the reward, no? The particular information purchased with the reward. Tama ho ba yan? **[02:58:33.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** With just a counter-manifest. I mean, just no particular information except it says that they were able to identify areas where the YLS was built. But as to your question, I'll answer it directly. No particular specific information was identified. Okay. **[02:59:21.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So for example, it states here the certification submitted by **[02:59:28.790] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Lieutenant Colonel Magtanggol Panopio, dated December 5, 2023, third paragraph. The identification of the areas where the summits are to be conducted was made possible through the information we primarily got from the DepEd, the LGUs, and the PNP. I suppose this is the information that you're referring to. Yes, sir. But it does not state here that this information was received from an informant. Tama ho, sir. **[02:59:56.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Not in that document. **[02:59:57.590] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, exactly. The very document. **[03:00:01.380] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** It's not there. Tama ho? Tama ho. Yes. And it also doesn't, much less does it state that this information was secured by paying rewards. Tama ho, sir? Tama po. Yes. And this applies to all of these other certifications. Tama, sir? Yes. **[03:00:15.580] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[03:00:15.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you. **[03:00:29.560] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, a while ago, sir, you confirmed that in the hearings that you attended before the Congress, no? **[03:00:41.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** You were categorical in stating that insofar as you're aware, the only two people who were privy to confidential funds were the vice president and the SDO Fajarda. Tama yan, sir. At that time, I'm qualifying it and I'm sure you know where I'm going. **[03:01:00.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** During that hearing. I'll give you a chance to explain. During that hearing. During that hearing, sir. Yes, okay. Now, subsequently, **[03:01:11.310] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** particularly during the hearing on November 25, 2024, still, Before the CGGPA, you were also in that hearing as mentioned a while ago, yes? **[03:01:22.800] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, I was in that hearing, **[03:01:24.100] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** sir. Yes, and you also heard the testimonies given by Mr. SDO Fajarda, correct? **[03:01:29.800] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. **[03:01:30.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[03:01:35.950] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And I'm not going to, **[03:01:41.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** at this point, no need to be verbatim, quoting, but in broad strokes, you will agree with me. In that hearing, SDO Fajarda stated, **[03:01:57.150] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** that he turned over the confidential funds to a certain Colonel Nolasco. Is that accurate, sir? **[03:02:07.610] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Well, not verbatim also, but that was what I heard him say. Yes, okay. **[03:02:13.770] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** In fact, he said, to **[03:02:20.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** be accurate, this is Colonel Dennis Nolasco, sir, no? He said, when **[03:02:28.570] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** asked, no? He said, Sa security officer lang po ako nagdi-disburse niyan. Wala na pong iba. And he, when asked to identify who is the security officer, he said si Colonel Dennis Nolasco po. Tama ho, sir. I recall that, sir. Yes. **[03:02:44.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** And **[03:02:44.800] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** of course, you don't have any basis to contest that statement, correct, sir? **[03:02:48.580] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's his statement, sir. **[03:02:49.760] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. So you don't have any basis? No, no, no. He just **[03:02:51.960] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** already asked and answered, Your Honor. **[03:02:53.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Not, did not answer. He just said that's his statement. But be that as it may. **[03:02:57.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Asked and answered, move forward, move ahead, counsel. **[03:03:02.100] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And he was even asked, if that turnover of confidential funds by the SDO to Colonel Nolasco occurred for all three 37.5 million releases, and his response was, yes, correct, sir? **[03:03:16.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, I remember that. Okay. **[03:03:21.350] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And he was even specifically asked, Kung bukod dito kay Nolasco, meron pa ba siyang pinagbigyan ng ibang pera nitong confidential funds? Ang sinabi niya, wala na ho. Tama ho? Tama **[03:03:32.910] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** po. **[03:03:33.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[03:03:45.740] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At maalala din niyo ho, doong tinanong ho siya ng Deputy Speaker J.J. Suarez, sino po ang nagbigay ng pahintulot o ng kapangyarihan para si Colonel Nolasco po ang mag-disburse noong pera? Ang naging sagot ho niya, Your Honor, si VP Sara po. Tama? **[03:04:04.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I remember something to that effect. Although I'm not sure about the wording. But yes, something to that effect. **[03:04:10.060] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Would it be necessary to locate the TSA? **[03:04:15.760] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I think the point was made that it was the Vice President who advised him to do so. Or instructed him to do so. **[03:04:24.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Para preciso tayo, siyang nagbigay ng pahintulot o ng kapangyarihan para si Colonel Nolasco po ang mag-disburse ng pera. Your Honor, si VP Sara Maite. **[03:04:36.040] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I will have to object, Your Honor. I've given leeway to the prosecutor to ask certain questions prior to this one. But this clearly is... A question to elicit some hearsay. Now, if the source of these statements is the TSN itself, this witness is not the proper witness to ask these questions. I mean, they've already called for hardline. If I'm not mistaken, that person is scheduled to take the witness stand. The prosecutor can ask these questions to the man himself when he is presented, not to this witness. **[03:05:12.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Brief reply before I acknowledge or recognize Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo. **[03:05:17.320] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** These are independently relevant statements, Your Honor. And the witness already confirmed most of this. He did not contest that these were actually stated and that he has no knowledge to contest them. And, please, Your Honor, I'll just ask for leeway. Just allow me five and ten questions and we'll make precisely the point why we're raising these questions. At **[03:05:37.360] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** this **[03:05:37.680] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** point, Your Honor, sorry. **[03:05:38.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I will **[03:05:38.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** make a ruling in regard to that, but first, Senator-Judge Erwin. **[03:05:42.290] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Mr. Presiding Officer. Yes, what is your **[03:05:44.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** pleasure, sir? **[03:05:45.250] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Thank you. I just want to ask, wala naman ako makita pangalan dito na Atty. Poa. Nakikita ko dito Fajarda, Suarez, Fajarda, between Fajarda and Congressman Suarez. I don't know why this has to come up and the person, our witness, will be asked questions. basing on the conversation between Mr. Fajarda and Suarez. Now, enlighten me, presiding officer, are we going to the right direction or are we wasting our time here? Why ask questions to this person, to this witness, pero na hindi naman po siya nagsabi. Mabuti sana, kanina ko pa tinitignan. Wala naman makitang Poa diyan between a conversation between Congressman Suarez and Mr. Fajarda. Siguro kung may ator ni POA, maintindihan ko pa. Otherwise, we'll be wasting our time. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. President. **[03:06:42.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The **[03:06:42.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** point of Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo is well taken. Attorney Jay, I gave you enough leeway already. You asked three or four questions about the statements of Fajarda. **[03:06:58.120] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, sir. **[03:06:58.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And you will be calling Mr. Fajarda if he were not sick. He was supposed to appear this week or perhaps next week if he feels better. These questions apply more to him than to Atty. Poa. I am constrained to sustain the objection of Atty. Sheila. Move on **[03:07:17.920] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** to your next point. **[03:07:18.240] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, the next point is going to be very clear. You will remember again, so as you've stated a while ago, at that time, the only two people who were privy to the confidential funds These were your statements in October 17 and September 25, 2024, were the SDO, Fajarda, and Vice President. But during that hearing, you heard Fajarda say that apparently, **[03:07:50.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** according to her, she transferred all of the confidential funds to this Colonel Nolasco. Now, this is my question. Upon hearing that, **[03:08:04.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Was that the first time that you heard it during that hearing? **[03:08:07.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** The security officer? That **[03:08:09.680] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** the funds were transferred to Colonel Nolasco? **[03:08:12.760] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I'll be more precise. Actually, that was the first time that I heard that there was a security officer, Your **[03:08:18.400] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Honor. Okay, that there's a security officer, number one. And number two, that the funds were transferred, the confidential funds were transferred by SDO Fajarda to Nolasco. **[03:08:31.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[03:08:31.620] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's also the first time. Okay. So, it means that at the time that you were preparing your response to the AOMs, you did not even know about this role of Colonel Nolasco. Correct, sir? **[03:08:42.590] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[03:08:43.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's correct. Okay. So, at the time that you were preparing that response, **[03:08:51.770] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** necessarily, you were not able to talk to the person who supposedly paid these funds to the informers. Is that correct? That's correct. I mean, you mean the security officer? Yes. The person who was actually holding the funds because apparently it's not SDO Fajarda, correct? **[03:09:17.600] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, because I only spoke to SDO Fajarda. **[03:09:20.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, okay. **[03:09:23.240] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That was news to you when you suddenly heard because you said in Congress there was only VP Sara, you said it under oath consistently, VP Sara Duterte and Fajarda who were privy to it. Now, October 5, you heard that apparently there's a third person here who actually handled the funds, Colonel Nolasco. Now, my question is, upon hearing that, did you approach VP Sara since you had direct access to her to ask, Ma'am, totoo ba yung sinabi ni SDO Fajarda na yung confidential funds binigay lahat kay Colonel Nolasco? Hindi po. And I'll, **[03:10:03.020] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** can I **[03:10:03.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** explain? Hindi po, okay lang. So you did not give it? So you just took it at face value, yung statement po niya? **[03:10:08.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It was a very strange time at that point because I just resigned as spokesperson of the OVP, sir. So, the communication wasn't like before at that time. Okay. **[03:10:20.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So being the competent lawyer that you are, You did not take steps anymore to ascertain if that crucial information stated by SDO Fajarda was accurate? **[03:10:33.890] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I have to object, Your Honor, before the witness answers. I think the counsel was already reminded earlier not to... use in an inappropriate or even insulting... Inappropriate? No, being a competent lawyer as you are, and this even is misleading, Your Honor, because the answers of the witness was not in connection with his being a lawyer. The questions and the responses pertain to his office at that time when he responded to the AOMs, Your Honor. **[03:11:04.210] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** With all due respect, I don't know how the co-counsel of Atty. Poa could find the statement... Describing him as a highly competent lawyer to be offensive. **[03:11:13.950] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** No, but he didn't... And inappropriate. We can replay the video and there was not a description. **[03:11:20.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel, please. I will sustain the objection but not on that ground, Attorney Sheila. On the ground, it was asked and answered already. The witness already answered that he did not discuss the matter anymore with the Vice President given the peculiar situation. their relationship was in, given that he resigned. So that was his answer, counsel, to the same question. **[03:11:46.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you, Your Honor. So he did not ask the Vice President at that time, but now my question is, are you telling us, or did you take any action at all to confirm the accuracy of that statement after hearing it? **[03:12:02.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, sir, because it did not relate to the AOM anymore. **[03:12:05.370] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ah, okay. **[03:12:08.150] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I'd **[03:12:08.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** like to add, **[03:12:09.310] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** but I know **[03:12:09.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** you won't. **[03:12:10.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's okay. So you did not even confirm if what SDO Fajarda said was accurate. **[03:12:19.920] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Asked and **[03:12:20.440] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** answered, Your Honor. **[03:12:21.400] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** As an answer, counsel. That's okay. I'll accept that, that you did not. **[03:13:07.220] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. Now, would you recall that when asked, SDO Acosta made a similar **[03:13:20.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** admission that for her part, she transferred the confidential funds of the Office of the Vice President to Colonel La Chica. **[03:13:33.910] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Now, I have an objection, Your Honor. Again, the term used was admission, Your Honor. And we all know that this is a legal term and has legal implications. We ask that the question be reformed. **[03:13:44.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly modify, Counselor. **[03:13:45.710] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I will try to choose a word that will be more palatable for the defense counsel to avoid further arguments, **[03:13:51.350] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor. It's not a **[03:13:51.850] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** question of being palatable, Counsel. It's not **[03:13:54.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** a question of being palatable, Counsel. Kindly reform. Yes, Your Honor. So, **[03:13:59.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you recall that SDO... Acosta stated that she transferred the entire confidential funds of the OVP to Colonel La Chica. Correct, Sara? **[03:14:13.130] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Also, Your Honor, objection. This is misleading. I recall, and I was here when Gina Acosta testified, the term used was disbursement. And in fact, I recall that she repeatedly asserted that she disbursed, not transferred. Again, We cannot mislead yung mga nanonood sa atin. Transfer and disbursement, etc., Your Honor. We can just refer to the TSN if this is something that will help the prosecutor. **[03:14:41.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** The chair confirms that Gina mentioned disbursement. That was one of the questions of the chair. **[03:14:48.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you, sir. Sige, tagalogin natin para simple. So, binigay niya yung pera na hawak-hawak niya na confidential funds as SDO, binigay niya ito lahat. kay Colonel La Chica. Tama ho ba? **[03:15:03.400] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, the witness is again... I have to ask, now what's the **[03:15:06.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** basis of the question? **[03:15:08.840] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Filipino **[03:15:09.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** and English are both allowed **[03:15:11.240] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** to be used in this **[03:15:12.300] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** proceeding. **[03:15:13.100] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** You're presuming my ground for objection. Kindly finish, **[03:15:17.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Sheila. **[03:15:18.560] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor. The prosecutor is now again asking the witness about the statement that he did not. Make, Your Honor. **[03:15:29.650] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And I **[03:15:30.650] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** think counsel knows the ground for objection. This is hearsay. This is not his declaration. **[03:15:37.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** It doesn't matter, Your Honor. Attorney J? **[03:15:41.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** What do you say? Your Honor. Again, that is not the point here. That is a relevantly, that's an independently relevant statement. So, that was already admitted into the records. And in fact, that statement was given by the witness herself when she was here. **[03:16:03.970] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Or **[03:16:04.570] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** she was subjected to cross-examination. Obviously not hearsay, you know? She was here and subjected to cross-examination. Hence, it cannot be hearsay. **[03:16:14.500] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Attorney Jay. And **[03:16:16.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** the question was very simple. It was just, does he remember that witness stating that answer? **[03:16:24.440] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Well, Your Honor, the hearsay rule does not pertain to the original declarant. It pertains to the witness on witness stand, Your Honor. **[03:16:36.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Just to get over this, Attorney Poa, you know what... where he's headed towards. Kindly just answer the question. I **[03:16:45.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** heard her say that she disbursed the funds to Colonel La Chica. **[03:16:52.800] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, thank you, attorney po. **[03:16:56.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, so you heard her disbursed the funds to Colonel La Chica, and you also heard her say this was upon the instructions of the Vice President, correct? **[03:17:07.870] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I heard her say that, yes. **[03:17:10.600] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** You also have no basis to contest that, correct? **[03:17:13.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No personal knowledge to contest that. **[03:17:15.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, hence, no basis to contest it, correct, sir? **[03:17:18.280] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, but I'd like to be accurate and say no personal knowledge to contest it. Let that be reflected in the record, Your Honor. **[03:17:23.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Alright, that's fine. And with respect to ASEC Lemuel Ortoño, who was the one who responded to the AOMs received by the OVP? You stated also that **[03:17:43.870] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Everything that he did, the responses to the AOMs, they were upon the instructions of the Vice President. You heard that, sir? **[03:17:55.410] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sir, just excuse me for this one. I don't remember exactly how he said it, so if you do have the TSNs, maybe, but I will confirm whatever the TSN says. **[03:18:07.650] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[03:18:10.180] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can we flash the TSNs, please? **[03:18:16.090] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sorry, I don't want to delay the proceedings further, but just for this one, I really do not remember. The part **[03:18:20.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** where it says, Noong nareceive ko po yung AOM, I informed the Chief of Staff and the Vice President. **[03:18:27.200] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Anong page? **[03:18:34.630] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** August 28? **[03:18:39.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** August 26. **[03:18:56.300] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** August 28, page... August 26, page 36, **[03:19:04.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor. **[03:19:08.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, dito. Sir, **[03:19:18.640] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** if you can help me read na lang, I really, I apologize. Noong **[03:19:21.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** nareceive... **[03:19:28.280] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Nung nareceive ko po yung AOM, ma'am, I informed the chief of staff and the vice president. And from there, there was an instruction to me to coordinate with the special disbursing officer and the security officer, which I did also, ma'am. And then from their replies, ma'am, parang I drafted the response and then I submitted the reply for the final approval to the head of the agency. The head of agency is the vice president, sir? **[03:19:50.380] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, yes. **[03:19:51.180] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And after that, **[03:19:54.860] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** asked by the Senate president, Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, and then Mr. Ortoño, nakita ko sa mga records na anim na beses kayong pumirma ng reply to COA. **[03:20:08.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Itong anim na letters na ito, ito ba ay nabasa, nakita, ipinakita kay Vice President Sara, Mr. Ortoño, all the replies, sir, that were drafted were also sent to our Vice President for her information for reference and review. **[03:20:23.060] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, objection. Were **[03:20:25.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you **[03:20:25.550] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** leading **[03:20:25.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** to counsel? I will make the connection, Your Honor, in about five more questions, Your Honor. **[03:20:33.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Atty. Sheila. Then I have **[03:20:35.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** to recognize **[03:20:36.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Sheila. **[03:20:37.450] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you, Your Honor. **[03:20:40.250] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Same objection. In fact, there's an additional ground, Your Honor. Witness will be incompetent because this appears to be statements from Mr. Ortoño from another office, the office of the Vice President. I think the witness is called here. as the former spokesperson of the Department of Education and not of the Office of the Vice President, Your Honor. So, with respect to any communications between the staff members of the OVP, this witness will not have any knowledge, Your Honor. **[03:21:10.120] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Kindly reply, Atty. J. That is an assumption that we wouldn't know until we ask the witness himself whether he knows it or not. No, I don't think so. If he doesn't know, then we will accept it, sir. **[03:21:21.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Then the presiding officer will have to ask, where are you? I cannot also help you because I don't know what your point is. Where are you headed **[03:21:29.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** towards? Yes, Your Honor. Now, I will ask. So, this witnesses all stated that all of their actions with respect to the liquidation of the confidential funds were at least with knowledge of the Vice President. Now, my question is, **[03:21:51.190] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** ASEC Ortoño does not report directly to the Vice President, right? **[03:21:55.650] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I do not know that, Your Honor. I really do not know their structure there. **[03:21:59.810] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** It's okay. But you do? Yes, I do. So, would it be correct to say then, as you mentioned a while ago, even as your role as a spokesperson, bago kayo magbigay ng statements sa publiko, Tulad nung binasa natin kanina, tinatawagan nyo pa ang vice-presidente para malaman niya kung ano yung gusto niya. Sabihin ninyo. At sabi nyo din kanina, please tell me kung merong inaccurate dito sa mga sabihin ko na alala kong sagot nyo. Kapag may mga importanteng bagay, pinapaalam nyo sa vice-presidente at hindi kayo gagawa nang hindi niya alam or sorry, not hindi alam, na taliwas sa kagustuhan niya. At sinabi nyo din, kapag mga importanteng bagay, You will consult her, even at times, kapag importante yan, hinihingi niyo yung approval niyo. So far, accurate ho, Lot, sir? Accurate. Okay. Now, alam niyo ho, itong AOM na to, naka-address ho sa kanya ng diretsyo. Tama po. At alam niyo din ho, ang AOM, ang epekto nito, kapag hindi ho kayo nakasunod, dun sa demand dun na mag-submit ng additional... documents and information to prove compliance with the Joint Circular. Ang magiging resulta ho nito, pwede ho ma-issuehan na kayo ng notice of suspension or notice of disallowance. Tama ho? Tama po. At kapag umabot ho tayo sa notice of disallowance, ibig sabihin yan, magkakaroon ng order of restitution. Tama ho ba? Upon finality. Yes. At kapag nagkaroon ng order of restitution, yung mga taong pinangalanan doon, sila'y **[03:23:36.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** magiging personally liable. Tama ho ba? Tama po. Ngayon, so alam natin na Kapag hindi nasagot ng mabuti itong AOM na to, magkakaroon ng personal liability si Vice President. Kung hindi, tama? **[03:23:50.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, tama. Dahil sa mga rason na yan lahat, ibig sabihin lang yan, hindi ho kayo gagalaw ng sarili nyo lang with respect to this reply at hindi nyo ito isusumite ng hindi alam ng **[03:24:01.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Vice Presidente. Tama ho ba yun? **[03:24:03.040] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Well, now I have **[03:24:03.200] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** an **[03:24:03.300] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** objection. That's misleading, Your Honor. It assumes a fact. that has not been established by the prior questions of the prosecutor, Your Honor. **[03:24:16.250] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Ibig kong sabihin ito, hindi kayo gagalaw kung that, Your Honor. **[03:24:22.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** It is a big leap, Attorney Jay, but let me. Attorney po, lahat po nang ginawa niyo kaugnay sa pagsagot sa AOM ay nalalaman ng Vice Presidente? **[03:24:35.470] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Nalaman po niya, yes, nalaman niya. **[03:24:38.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Inotoriza niya? **[03:24:40.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, it will entail a bit of explanation if I may be, I'll be very fast. Okay. Ang proseso po kasi sa DepEd, pag may dumating na AOM, anong po ang mga AOM yan? Darating po yan sa USEC for Finance who's in charge of the AOM Task Force. Pag nakuha na po yung AOM, the AOM Task Force or the USEC for Finance will now coordinate kung sino yung opisina subject of that AOM. So in this case, ako po yung OIC USEC Finance at ako rin po yung masasabing head ng opisina ng OSEC aside from the Vice President, of course. So what happened was, when we got the AOM, siyempre po, in-inform ko po siya that we got the AOM. And I informed her and asked for permission if I can coordinate with the SDO dahil yan lang naman ang alam ko na may alam dito sa mga pondo na to. And she said okay. So, nakipag-usap po ako sa kanya. The way the relationship between the Vice President and I work professionally at the DepEd level is that we have meetings to brief her. So, after all this, I told the Vice President, kinuwento ko sa kanya kung ano yung sinabi sa akin ng SDO at kung ano yung mga dokumentong nakalap ko and she said yes. And finally, a day before I submitted the AOM response, I gave her a soft copy of the response itself. That's all, Your Honor. And then she said copy. **[03:26:03.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Did she approve it? **[03:26:05.040] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Well, her response was copy. Meaning she got it? Meaning she received it, yes. **[03:26:11.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Now, when you said you talked to the SDO and this was your intended response to the AOM and she said yes, what does that mean? Yes to what? **[03:26:20.240] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Meaning, no, Your Honor, I told her I was going to coordinate with the SDO. She said yes to coordinating with the SDO. **[03:26:26.720] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** No, you already came back to her again after **[03:26:28.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** you talked **[03:26:29.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** to the SDO and she said yes, you said. I **[03:26:31.220] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** came back to her and I briefed her on all of my answers to the AOM and she just said okay. **[03:26:38.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So she said okay. So she gave her approval to what you wrote in the AOM. Is that **[03:26:45.740] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** a safe answer? Yes, Your Honor, except she didn't have a copy yet. I was just briefing her. Verbal kasi kami mag-briefing, Your Honor. **[03:26:52.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So she perused it, listened to you verbally, and she acceded to you when you asked for permission to submit it? She **[03:27:00.520] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** was only able to peruse it the day before I submitted. Not during the briefing. And she did not prevent you from filing it? She did not prevent me from filing. **[03:27:09.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Up to today, hindi ka ba niya pinagsasabihan ba't mo final yun? **[03:27:12.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po, dahil may credit notice nga po kami. **[03:27:14.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay. Attorney J., your witness. **[03:27:18.330] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you, thank you, Your Honor, for that. **[03:27:20.470] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Para lang maliwanag, I'm not sure if I got it correctly. Tama ho ba pati yung AFP certifications? Hindi ko po napakita. Pero na-discuss niyo ho sa kanya? **[03:27:28.850] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sinabi ko po sa kanya na may ganung certifications at yung GIS ng nilalaman ng certifications. Okay. **[03:27:34.350] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** At yung GIS ng nilalaman. Okay, salamat po. **[03:27:43.830] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sige. Tama ho ba sir yung alala ko, please correct me kung mali ako. Ang pagkaka-explain nyo sa amin kanina, pagkatanggap nyo ng AOM, so naghanap nga ho kayo ng **[03:27:57.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** dokumento na kakailangan ninyong isubmit sa Commission on Audit, kaya linapitan nyo ho si Undersecretary Nolasco Mempin. At noong nangyari ito, si Colonel Nolasco Mempin kinuha ho itong mga AFP certifications. Tama ko ba yan, sir, so far? **[03:28:15.300] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** SDO muna nilapitan ko, **[03:28:16.920] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** sir. SDO. SDO ang nagsabi sa akin. Sabi ko, kailangan ko ng DEP as provided AOM at kailangan ko ng Document Evidencing Success. Ang sabi po ng SDO sa akin, sa DEP, he will need time to get it from the field. Sir, dun lang muna tayo sa Document Evidencing Success. Document Evidencing Success, sabi niya, he will try to get it from the field, but... Perhaps I could also help him follow up with Usec. Mempin since Usec. to Usec. baka mas mapabilis. Yung **[03:28:45.910] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** part na sinabi niyong I will try also to get it from the field, aminin niyo hindi niyo nasabi yan at siya din hindi niya nasabi yan kahit saan sa mga pagdinig sa Congress? Opo. **[03:28:59.160] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So ngayon, nandun na tayo, sinabihan ka niya, baka pwede mong kunin ito kay Undersecretary Mempin. Nag-usap po kay Undersecretary Mempin. Kinausap po niya ngayon. Yung mga sabi niya, colleagues or classmates niya from AFP, they got the certificates. Binalik sa inyo, sinubmit niyo. Tama po? Tama po. Okay. **[03:29:19.830] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Medyo may... **[03:29:22.550] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Punting problema lang, sir, no? **[03:29:24.610] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Kailangan natin klaruhin to. Do you have copies of the certificates? May we request, Your Honor, that the witness be given copies of the certificates? **[03:29:33.870] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I brought my copies, but I'm happy to use the copies of the prosecution. **[03:29:36.890] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, please, sir, para mabilis lang **[03:29:37.850] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** tayo. **[03:29:56.800] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, **[03:29:57.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** so the certification is... by Colonel Manaros M. Boransing, no? Exhibit P-Roman numeral 1-22-A for the prosecution. **[03:30:14.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, sir. **[03:30:16.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Makikita niyo ho dito, dun sa second paragraph, this certification is issued this 1st January 2024. Nakita niyo ho yun, sir? **[03:30:24.100] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[03:30:25.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Kahapon, it's a matter of record, sinabi din ho ni Colonel Boransing na ilang beses na in-issue niya itong date na ito, January 1st, 2024. Now, dun naman ho tayo dun sa certification na na-issue naman ho ni... Lieutenant Colonel at that time, now full Colonel, Magtangol Panopio. **[03:30:47.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes po. Ang **[03:30:49.150] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** date naman dito, December 5, 2023, ano ho? **[03:30:52.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[03:30:53.230] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** For the record also, Your Honor, it will be borne out by the transcript. The witness **[03:30:58.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** repeatedly **[03:30:58.590] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** acknowledged yesterday that this document was issued by him on December 5, 2023 as stated in that letter. Also, Carlos B. Sangdaan Jr., Lieutenant Colonel, also issued the certification Exhibit P-1-22-B. The date, sir, is December 30, 2023. **[03:31:22.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's correct, sir. Okay. So, December 2023, **[03:31:27.580] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** December **[03:31:29.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** 30, 2023, December **[03:31:37.800] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** 5, 2023, January 1, 2024. These were the dates when the certifications were prepared. Can you remind us again, sir? When did you receive the AOM? Which, according to you, this is the very reason why you asked Colonel Mempin to produce these AFP certificates. When did you receive that AOM? Feb 2, 2024. Feb 2, 2024. Obviously, two months after the issuances of these certificates. Correct, sir? Correct. **[03:32:10.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay. **[03:32:16.710] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, they **[03:32:20.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** existed already, no? At the time that you received the AOM. **[03:32:23.610] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It appears so, sir. It appears so. **[03:32:26.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, **[03:32:29.200] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** narinig din natin, sinabi nila, they were issued for attendance purposes. Tony, I have to ask, no? Hindi ho ba noong December pa lang nagawa na ito ang purpose nila to prove attendance and then when you needed proof to justify your use of the confidential funds as demanded? by the Commission of Audit, you repurposed these certificates and used them now based on your theory and presumptions to show that you can use them as proof of successor. **[03:33:01.680] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Objection, Your Honor. Two grounds. Argumentative and misleading. Yung certifications na binanggit ng counsel kanina ay hindi naman lahat ginawa ng December 5, 2023. Yes, some are January. In fact, mayroon January 1, may December 30, December 5, at may iba-iba pa. petya. All before February 2024. Pangalawa, Your Honor, yung pagbanggit ng di pa ay inyong nire-purpose, that's argumentative, Your Honor. **[03:33:30.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, again, sorry, sorry, please, no? Please, please, counsel. Counsel, please. Again. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, counsel. Not because the witness is being placed **[03:33:44.570] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** ask a question which appears already that he will not agree to it, it does not make it argumentative. This is a question of fact. Ginamit mo lang ba ito? Rinipurpose mo lang ba ito para supportahan yung paggamit niyo ng funds? That's a **[03:34:00.730] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** question of fact na pwede niyang sabihin o hindi. Ginamit niyo lang ba ito para magpalusot o hindi? pwede din niyang sagutin yan. So, sir. No, **[03:34:08.810] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** but sir, I will ask for a ruling from the court for the objection. **[03:34:13.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Allow, allow, counsels, allow the, allow the chair. Again, you have a smart witness and a lawyer at that answering the questions. **[03:34:23.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kailan niyo po natanggap yung AOM? **[03:34:26.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Feb 2, Your Honor. Feb 2. **[03:34:28.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Feb 2. At ayon sa sagot mo kanina pa. 2024. Tinanong mo si Tinuro ka ni SDO Fajarda na kausapin si Mempin kaugnay sa Proof of Success, di ba? Tama po. Sabi ni Atty. J, yung mga certification na inattach mo sa iyong April na sagot sa AOM, di ba? **[03:34:52.030] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opa. **[03:34:54.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Inattach mo itong mga certification na ginawa noong December at January. December 2023 and January 2024. Tama? Tama pa. So, tila lumalabas, nanando na yun, bago pa man natanggap yung AOM. **[03:35:10.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I think the point Atty. J is trying to make is, bakit nauna yun, or in-antedate ba yun, or naka-file na yun kay Usec Mempin, at nung hinanap nyo, nilabas, binigay, at inattach? **[03:35:27.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I wouldn't know. Your Honor, I cannot speculate kung bakit ganun. Pwedeng, kasi ang daming pwedeng possibility. Ang sabi sa akin ng SDO, Sir, baka pwede niyong tulungan mag-follow up kay Usec. Mempin since Usec. to Usec. baka mas mapabilis. So I don't know if alam naman siguro ng kung sino man ang nag-ooperate na kailangan pag may rewards, may document evidencing success. So maaring nahingi na noon. Hindi lang nabibigay sa central office. There's so many possibilities and I don't want to speculate dahil I'm under oath. Baka may masabi akong hindi tama. But **[03:36:02.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** one thing is for sure. **[03:36:03.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** At the time you got the AOM, wala pa kayong hawak na certification. **[03:36:09.160] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Walang napakita sa akin, Your Honor. Walang napakita ang SDO. Ang SDO, walang napakita sa akin. **[03:36:14.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Are you not aware if it was already there or produced after? **[03:36:19.430] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I'm not aware of that. **[03:36:20.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** If at all, Usec. Mempin would know? **[03:36:24.000] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, probably. But I have to say on the record that when I asked the SDO kung meron na tayong DES, wala naman pong napakita sa akin. I mean, sorry, Documents Evidencing Success, walang napakita sa akin kaya sinabi baka puwedeng i-follow up ko rin sa Usec. Mempin dahil Usec. to Usec., baka mas mabilis. **[03:36:43.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** So from your end, to reiterate. At the time you received the AOM, you did not know of these certifications. **[03:36:49.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor. In fact, that's why I never asked for certifications. But **[03:36:54.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** that does not necessarily mean that they were not in existence already unless the question was asked to both Colonels Boransing and Panopio if they antedated these certifications. Exactly, **[03:37:05.410] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your **[03:37:05.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honor. And no such evidence was presented when they testified. **[03:37:08.950] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Exactly. And I wouldn't know that. I wouldn't be in a **[03:37:10.830] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** position to answer that. **[03:37:11.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** And if at all, someone would know, it would be Yusec Mempin. If at all. **[03:37:15.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** If at all, or the colonels themselves, Your Honor. **[03:37:18.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Okay. Thank you. **[03:37:19.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Attorney Jay, your witness. Just for the record, the transcripts of the hearing yesterday will bear me out. The two witnesses confirmed that the dates stated in those certifications that they issued were in fact the dates when they made those certifications. This is reflected in the transcripts. Now, also, sir. Pasensya na, attorney. I heard you, you don't want to make speculation. You have to admit, you made some speculations there. **[03:37:43.950] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** So we have to move... Sorry, **[03:37:45.890] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I **[03:37:46.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** did **[03:37:46.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** not... I'm sorry, **[03:37:47.050] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** but I did not make speculation. I will point out which speculation. **[03:37:51.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** No, no, no, you're in... Atty. Sheila, Atty. Sheila, Atty. Paul, kindly. Your Honor, with all **[03:37:57.250] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** due respect, **[03:37:57.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** let's give Atty. Jay some... He **[03:37:59.990] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** gave some scenarios, possible scenarios a while ago, no? Na maaaring... Thank you, sir, for the... That's just my point. Thank you, sir, for not making it difficult. So just that portion that we're not based on his personal knowledge, we're just respectfully requesting they be stricken off the record. Thank you for that. **[03:38:18.080] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I will still ask, Your Honor, for the striking out of that portion **[03:38:21.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** in **[03:38:22.820] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** the statement of the court. That's inappropriate, Your Honor. In fact, the responses of the witness was in response to the presiding officer's... question, not to the counsel, Your Honor. **[03:38:33.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let it stay on the record, Atty. Sheila. Move on, move on, Atty. James. Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you. Okay. **[03:38:41.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, laruin **[03:38:45.540] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** ko lang, no? Yung kay Colonel Mempin, nandun ka, no? Noong tinanong siya, dun sa timing, no? Sinabi niya, linapitan mo siya dahil nanghihingi ka nga sa kanya ng certifications, which you corrected. Sabi niyo, hindi ho yung specific, just any document, accomplishment reports. At maliwanag ang sabi niya after niya nakuha ng utos sa iyo, tsaka niya pinuntahan ang mga AFP officers para hingyan nito. Tama ho yung recollection ko, sir? I think the **[03:39:16.780] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** recollection is accurate, **[03:39:18.100] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** yes. Okay, so after mo'n linapitan, doon siya pumunta sa AFP. Thank you, sir. **[03:39:37.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Okay. **[03:39:42.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Sir, turn niyo po ah. Kunti na lang to sir, bibilis ako. Sinabi niyo kanina, napakaliwanag, you confirmed your statements that you made in Congress na ang first time lang na kayo ay na-involve sa confidential funds noong natanggap niyo yung AOM. Tama ho? Tama po. Sabi niyo nga, hindi kayo na-involve dun sa pag-prepare ng mga liquidation reports. Tama. Okay. But sir, asensya na, I will have to confront you with this. You would also recall, One of the witnesses that we presented here, Attorney Roderick Wamil, **[03:40:20.380] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** stated **[03:40:20.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** that in September 2023, you attended the meeting before the COA where you discussed the liquidation of confidential funds. You heard that, sir? Yes. And that happened before you received the AOM, sir? **[03:40:37.560] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[03:40:38.100] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. Your Honor, at this juncture, may we request, Your Honor, the... sir, to play the press conference given by attorney Michael Poa regarding this matter, Your Honor. You recall, sir, that right after you cross-examined that witness who said you were there in that meeting, you conducted the press conference where you explained your side of the matter, correct, sir? Yes. May we request that it be played, Your Honor. **[03:41:11.830] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Video 14, please. **[03:41:13.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Tek is instructed to play video 14, please. **[03:41:29.040] Reporter (Video)** The witness earlier mentioned that he met with you in [unclear] 2023. **[03:41:33.440] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. I actually don't remember that, to be honest. But I do remember that meeting. That really happened. I was trying to get... OVP to tell me what happened then. Kasi nasabihan lang ako eh to attend that meeting. I did not initiate that meeting. Nasabihan lang ako when I was still in DepEd. So I think it was COA who called for that meeting but I'm not sure. That's why I was trying to get verification from the OVP kung sino ba yung nagpatawag noong meeting na yun. I was there but I was more of a bystander kasi hindi naman napag-usapan yung DepEd at that time. It was really more of OVP and it was really more on Whatever I said there was really trying to clarify lang what was on the JC because as I've mentioned previously, I was never really involved with the confidential funds issue. So I was just there being the chief of staff of DepEd at that time. So napag-usapan lang yung mga ano ba talagang interpretation, ano ba yung mga supporting documents na kailangan ng COA to satisfy them. At yun lang naman yung nangyari sa meeting na yun. And about that, audit query. I think the intention was na kung mayroong clarification, baka puwedeng audit query muna. Parang ganun. And then if we're not able to justify, then go ahead and issue. But nasabihan din naman talaga kami noon na I don't think ang audit query kasi sa private sector, it's done eh. Pero hindi ko alam noon na pagdating pala sa government, they don't do that. So they just told us we can't do that. **[03:43:04.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, it's clear based on this meeting that you did not deny that that press conference, that that meeting occurred, correct? **[03:43:13.330] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[03:43:13.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And hindi nyo din tinatanggi na gumawa ho, nag-sabi ho kayo ng request na mag-issue na lamang muna ng AOM instead of audit query. Tama ho, sir? **[03:43:25.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It wasn't me personally. I don't remember if I did also join that request. But the request was made. **[03:43:33.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And the two persons who were there were only you and attorney Zuleika Lopez, correct? **[03:43:39.820] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, that's not correct. **[03:43:40.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** No, I mean from your side. Okay, may we know who **[03:43:43.520] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** else from the **[03:43:44.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Department of Education were **[03:43:45.480] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** there? **[03:43:45.620] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It was the Finance of Department of Education, the Finance Staff, because I was also OIC, USEC for Finance at that time, and also the COA liaison. Officer of DepEd, I think Ms. Sunshine Fajarda. Okay. Also on the part of OVP, if I remember correctly, it was their finance team also. **[03:44:06.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** With finance team, you mean undersecretary for finance? **[03:44:08.620] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No way. **[03:44:08.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ano po ’yun? **[03:44:09.760] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Director level. **[03:44:10.640] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Director level. Okay. And Atty. Zuleika Lopez? **[03:44:13.560] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. And I'm not sure if Mr. Ortoño was there. That one, I'm not sure. Okay. Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. Yun lang hindi ko masyado. **[03:44:20.400] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** All right. Thank **[03:44:20.840] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** you. And upon hearing **[03:44:21.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** this request, you did not distance yourself from that request, correct, sir? **[03:44:26.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, I did not distance myself. Yes, that's okay, sir. That's just **[03:44:28.280] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** a question. **[03:44:28.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, I did not distance myself. I was answering your **[03:44:31.320] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** question. Yes, yes. Thank you, thank you. You did not. So, basically, who were there? Would it be accurate to say the top officials under the Vice President, both for Office of the Vice President and the Department of Education? The relevant officials and top officials. Top officials, yes. And you would admit that that request carries institutional weight? **[03:44:58.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** The request for an audit query, sir. You're pertaining to the request **[03:45:01.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** or the meeting? **[03:45:01.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** For not issuing an AOM but just issue a audit query instead. **[03:45:06.720] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Now, that's misleading, Your Honor. There's nothing in the answers of the witness or even the prior questions that there was a request. to not issue an AOM. The questions pertain only to the audit query. There was no foundation for introducing a question that implies that there was a request not to issue an AOM. This is misleading, Your Honor. **[03:45:30.560] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** When you said issue a credit notice. Sorry, audit query. May we hear from you the exact words? If you recall, audit query na muna bago AOM. Tama ho ba? Wala po tayong sinabing ganun. Let's play it again, please. No, **[03:45:52.830] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** no, no. Because you're quoting my presscon. You're asking me now what was said during the meeting. No, no, no. **[03:45:56.550] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I'm asking, of **[03:45:56.850] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** course, your statement in your presscon. **[03:45:58.770] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I'm sure **[03:45:59.390] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you stand by the statements you give during your presscons. **[03:46:01.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Correct, sir? **[03:46:02.740] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It was audit query. Kung hindi kayo pumayag, o di sige, AOM. **[03:46:08.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Nasaan yung TSA niya ulit? **[03:46:10.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** I don't see the point of it. **[03:46:12.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can **[03:46:13.180] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you flash it again, please? **[03:46:29.230] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. And about that audit query, I think the intention na kung meron clarification, baka puwedeng audit query muna. Yes. **[03:46:37.650] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Okay. **[03:46:38.230] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, it means to have to request na audit query muna, necessarily, why you have to say it? Because sabi mo, if there's an issue, don't issue an AOM right away. That's why you said audit query muna. Tama ho ba yun? Gusto namin **[03:46:58.890] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** ba yun, Sir? Objection, Your Honor. **[03:47:02.050] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** The **[03:47:02.630] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Council even is flashing a copy of the transcript from that press briefing and nowhere in there shows what the counsel is now implying, Your Honor. **[03:47:14.270] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, the witness can answer this question kung tama ba yung pagkakaintindi ko sa sinasabi niyo or hindi. If not, then so be it. **[03:47:22.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Your Honor, I can answer the question. I will have to overrule it, Atty. Sheila. Witness may answer. **[03:47:26.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I can answer, Your Honor. What do **[03:47:28.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you **[03:47:28.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** mean by that, Atty. Poa? What happened there was... We were talking about the JC 2015. Sinabi namin na hindi klaro yung hinihingi ng ang gusto mangyari ng COA very specific yung nakasulat sa I think PFP of OVP or something because DepEd was never discussed. So it was the PFP of OVP. So sa amin, ang sinasabi lang, ang naalala ko na bring up sa meeting na yun is wala naman nakalagay sa JC kung gaano ka-specific dapat. So, ano yung basis ng COA for saying dapat specific? So, they said, hindi, kasi yun talaga yung gusto sana naming makita, yung line item per activity. So, sabi, kung ganun, baka puwedeng mag-audit query kayo ng maklarify. Ngayon, alam naman natin, audit query is something that you can Google. It's actually on the COA website. So, that issuance is within COA's... power to issue. Ngayon, kung hindi naman sila maka-issue ng audit query at talagang AOM lang, then AOM. So, it's true. We said, baka puwedeng audit query muna since may pagtatalo tayo doon sa JC. **[03:48:39.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Poa, if I may attorney, let me pursue that. What's your basis in saying that because I remember the COA auditor saying wala daw ganong audit query sa kanila. **[03:48:53.790] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** When you say it's **[03:48:54.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** in the COA website, what do you mean by that? **[03:48:56.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, a simple Google search would show that the term audit query memorandum is actually an issuance that COA can issue. **[03:49:05.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly, kindly, clerk is instructed to kindly check. And secondly, what's your basis in saying that this is done in the private sector? **[03:49:13.550] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, just from my experience prior. That with accounting with auditors, independent auditors, sometimes they issue audit queries. **[03:49:23.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly check that too from the point of view of the court so that we can inform the senator-judges. Proceed, Atty. J. Atty. Paul, is **[03:49:29.740] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** that audit query in the Joint Circular 2015-01, which I'm sure you're very familiar with? **[03:49:35.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, it's not. **[03:49:35.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank **[03:49:36.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** you. **[03:49:45.850] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can you understand that the difference of an audit query versus an AOM, AOM is more of a formal demand to... which states that you were not able to properly liquidate the use of your funds and that if you will not be able to satisfy that demand, it may result to either, as you mentioned a while ago, a notice of suspension or a notice of disallowance, correct? **[03:50:12.880] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I wouldn't say demand, Your Honor. An audit observation memorandum just asks for explanations from management based on what they have observed, but definitely not demand. **[03:50:23.620] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Ah, not a demand. So, is the compliance optional then? **[03:50:27.760] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** The compliance is not optional. Well, the compliance, if you don't comply, then it becomes an NS or an ND. So, I wouldn't say optional at that point. So, if it's not optional, it's a demand **[03:50:38.120] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** then because you have to comply, right? **[03:50:39.600] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's your position, Your Honor. That's fine. Okay. **[03:50:42.200] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, but, can **[03:50:45.410] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** we go to the AOM quickly? **[03:50:52.120] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can we please flash the AOM? **[03:51:26.160] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can **[03:51:26.860] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** we please go to the last page? **[03:51:43.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, can you please zoom in? **[03:51:54.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, so it says here, in case of failure to submit the required documents or information or justifications needed to reach an audit decision, a notice of suspension, notice of disallowance may be issued as warranted. Okay. So, after seeing this, your position still is, or is your position, so I'm not gonna assume anything, you **[03:52:26.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** can either comply with it or not? **[03:52:28.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor. **[03:52:29.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, but if you don't comply with it, it means that a notice of decision or a notice of disallowance may be issued, correct? If warranted, yes. Yes. Because it states there that there were particular deficiencies that were noted already. In fact, specifically there, it states you were not able to provide specific proof of success as required under the Joint Circular with regards to payment of rewards. That's accurate. So there's a finding that you were not able to comply with that provision, the requirements with regards to payment of success, and you were asked to provide those. documents, correct? That **[03:53:13.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** will prove that **[03:53:14.480] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** success. **[03:53:15.100] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. Okay. **[03:53:15.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And that directive to produce documents of success, you do not consider that as a demand? No, I do not. That's fine. That's fine. Okay. **[03:53:31.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** In fact, the word is recommendation. **[03:53:33.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That's okay. **[03:53:42.360] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, in that interview, you also stated that **[03:53:51.680] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** the subject of that meeting was to get clarification also regarding The proper implementation of JC 2015-01, correct? **[03:54:04.450] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, yes. **[03:54:09.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Was the SDO **[03:54:10.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** there, by the way? No, the SDO, I don't remember if the SDO, I don't think the SDO was there. **[03:54:14.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** SDO Fajarda was not there. The COA liaison, Sunshine Fajarda, was there. So **[03:54:19.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** basically, there were two topics, no? The, to get clarification regarding JC 2015-01, its proper implementation, and then, **[03:54:34.410] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** The request, no? Regarding audit query. Right? This is what we've discussed. Yes. The audit **[03:54:41.930] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** query **[03:54:42.130] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** came **[03:54:42.370] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** about after the discussion. Because it was COA itself who called for the meeting. Not OVP or DepEd. **[03:54:48.070] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, this meeting happened, if you would recall, a few days after the first AOM was issued to the OVP. Only if you know. **[03:54:57.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, sir. A few days after the AOM was issued. No, sir. It was September 12, if I'm not mistaken. Because I checked the records when it was mentioned. I think it was September 12, 2023. Before the AOM was issued, right after the COA **[03:55:13.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** budget **[03:55:13.780] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** hearing. **[03:55:14.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, before the AOM was issued, that's when you had the meeting about that request to issue an audit query first, no? **[03:55:21.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** about the guidelines, Your Honor. Again, the query is right after the **[03:55:25.870] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** guidelines and then request. **[03:55:28.130] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I will not argue with you, Your Honor. Yes, and then request. Sorry, naligugulan ako. Hindi naman natin dini-deny yung request for... **[03:55:36.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi rin natin dini-deny yung may audit query. **[03:55:40.400] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, thank you. Sorry, Your Honor. I'll be forthright. Kaya nga, you're not denying that you made the request for just the issue of an audit query first. Yes, Your Honor. Okay, **[03:55:54.290] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** now, at that time, the DepEd has not yet submitted its liquidation reports for the third quarter of the confidential funds of the Department of Education, correct? I honestly would **[03:56:09.160] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** not know, Your Honor. I honestly would not know. I think it was in the reply to the AOM. So, perhaps I could look at the reply because those were information supplied by the SDO. **[03:56:33.040] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can **[03:56:37.240] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** we flash what were submitted, the liquidation reports, with respect to third quarter of 2023 of the Department of Education? **[03:57:22.860] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I think the date was September 29, Your Honor. So, to answer your question, hindi pa nasasubmit yung liquidation report noong... **[03:57:30.880] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, hindi pa nasasubmit. **[03:57:32.760] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Noong time na nagkaroon kayo ng meeting, hindi pa nasubmit yung liquidation reports. for the third quarter. Now, I asked you a while ago, you're very clear that your first, the first time that you got involved with confidential funds is when you received the AOM. Una-una muna, clearly, medyo hindi ho accurate yun, dahil nga pinag-usapan yun na, sorry, confidential funds, yung confidential funds noong September meeting. Now, Ibig sabihin din, tama ho ba? Hindi din kayo na-involve. Yan ang sinabi nyo kanina sa pag-submit ng mga liquidation reports for third quarter. That's clearly what you stated a while ago, correct? **[03:58:13.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, yes, that's correct. **[03:58:14.150] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So even after that meeting was conducted, or according to you, you wanted to get clarification on how to comply with JC 2015-01, itong natutunan nyo, parang hindi nyo ginamit. Nung nag-submit, ang COA, sorry, ang DepEd, noong liquidation reports noong 2023, dahil hindi ka naman naging, hindi ka nagkaroon ng partisipasyon. Tama? **[03:58:39.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your **[03:58:40.100] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Honor, because ang DepEd hindi na pag-usapan sa meeting na yun at all. DepEd confidential funds were not part of the meeting. In fact, when we asked COA, Meron ba kayong gustong sabihin sa DepEd because nandoon naman yung DepEd Finance at yung SCO. Sabi, **[03:58:53.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** hindi pa namin na-audit yung DepEd. **[03:58:55.150] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Pero, pinag-usapan nyo kanina, in general, how to apply the JC2015-01. Those were your statements, correct? **[03:59:02.390] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, yes. **[03:59:03.150] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, so yun ang point ko. Kahit natutunan mo during that meeting, paano gamitin ang JC2015-01, hindi mo ginamit yung kalaman na yan noong nag-submit na kayo noong third quarter. **[03:59:13.350] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It was not my **[03:59:13.910] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** responsibility, Your Honor, to handle the liquidation. **[03:59:17.490] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** You did **[03:59:18.170] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** not, correct? **[03:59:19.350] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I wouldn't know what they did with the liquidation report. But **[03:59:22.270] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I personally **[03:59:23.090] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** did not. **[03:59:24.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel, **[03:59:27.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** all of you are lawyers. Kindly don't speak at the same time. Avoid speaking at the same time. I think the point is quite clear in regard to Attorney Jay's question and Attorney Poa's answer. And if I remember correctly, it was primarily called **[03:59:57.940] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, Your Honor. **[03:59:58.860] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor. Okay, we **[04:00:00.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** heard that loud and clear to Attorney J. Please proceed. **[04:00:31.970] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So the only people, according to you, who were involved in confidential funds, at least during that Congressional meeting that you first attended, VP Sara and SDO **[04:00:44.080] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Fajarda. But that other person, who supposedly had involvement with confidential funds, was not even there in that meeting. As you've stated, correct? It's just a simple yes or no if he was there. **[04:00:58.640] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Security Officer, you're pertaining to? **[04:01:00.520] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Fajarda. **[04:01:01.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Fajarda was not in that meeting. **[04:01:02.960] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Hearing, sorry. Meeting? Meeting with COA. **[04:01:06.000] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Meeting with COA. **[04:01:06.700] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yeah, okay. **[04:01:22.670] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Can we again flash, please, the provision regarding and the joint circular regarding payment of rewards. 4.8.5, please. **[04:02:15.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Proceed, counsel. Yes, Your Honor. **[04:02:21.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, 4.8.5, payment of rewards to informers subject to the following conditions. There are three conditions here. And when you state, when you filed that reply, of course, your position was, at least your position, DepEd was compliant when it paid the rewards, correct? **[04:02:38.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, that **[04:02:39.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** was our position. **[04:02:39.920] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And the first requirement is there should be an approval by the HOA. Correct, sir? **[04:02:46.840] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. **[04:02:47.480] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, it means your representation is the payments of rewards to informers. Actual payments. to each informer and you would admit that each payment of reward would have to comply with all of these requirements, correct? **[04:03:06.990] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** According to the JC, correct. **[04:03:08.830] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, okay. **[04:03:09.690] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So then, it would mean each payment of reward should have been made with the approval by the HOA, correct? **[04:03:19.090] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** The head of agency. According to the JC. **[04:03:21.950] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, according to the JC. **[04:03:23.160] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And as you've mentioned a while ago, your position was you were compliant with this JC. **[04:03:27.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, because it could never mention that. **[04:03:29.580] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** No, that's not my point, Your Honor. I'm just asking you. Just the point is, I'm asking you to reconfirm that your position is you **[04:03:36.820] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** were compliant. **[04:03:37.720] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Hence, it's just logical. If your position is you're compliant, then your position is the Vice President approved the payment of the rewards to each of these informers, correct? **[04:03:49.200] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** There was no **[04:03:49.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** finding, so correct. **[04:03:51.300] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. **[04:03:51.840] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[04:04:00.920] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So ang **[04:04:02.920] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** maliwanag, ang sinasabi nyo, na inaamin nyo, bawat isang pagbayad sa bawat informant ng reward, lahat yan, aprobado ng vicepresidente, yun ang posisyon nyo. I wouldn't know that, Your Honor, kung bawat isa. What **[04:04:20.210] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I'm saying is, I'm confirming that those are the requirements under the JC at wala pong naging finding ang COA as to the lack of any approval from the head of agency. So kayo **[04:04:32.090] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** ho, na sumagot ng reply ninyo sa AOM para depensahan ang paggamit ng confidential funds, inaamin nyo, hindi nyo alam kung bawat isang reward na binayaran ng vice-presidente, hindi nyo alam kung meron siyang, sorry, binayaran ng vice-presidente, binayaran ng DepEd, hindi nyo alam kung merong approval yan ng vice-presidente. **[04:04:55.960] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** No, **[04:04:56.360] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** this is misleading, Your Honor. Misleading. **[04:04:59.790] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** What's misleading there, Your Honor? Let me just reform, Your Honor, please, para hindi tayo magtagala. Sisimpla natin ulit, no? So, ibig mong sabihin, no? Again, kayo ho yung sumagot sa kuwa para depensahan yung paggamit ng confidential funds. Tama ho? **[04:05:16.690] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[04:05:17.330] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. So, at sa paggawa nyo ho nitong pagdepensa nito, inamin nyo, hindi nyo pala alam kung ang vicepresidente ay nagbigay ng approval sa bawat pagbayad ng reward. Tama ho ba yun? **[04:05:33.300] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama ho, **[04:05:33.840] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** because malayo po yung tanong eh. Ang tanong eh, no, no, because you're saying, you're premising your question. **[04:05:40.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Poa, Atty. Jay, I think the premise is inaccurate. It's non-sequitur because Atty. Jay, whether or not the head of agency approved it was not contained in the AOM, which Atty. Poa did not answer. Yes or no to. So, there was nothing for him to say in regard to that in the AOM. Kasi ang finding ng COA with respect to 4.8.5 pertains only to letter B on the proof of success. So, there was nothing to answer. So, if counsel had objected on the same grounds that it was misleading, then it would have been sustained. So, I get what you're trying to... I think, Atty. J., we're going in circles, quite frankly, but I think Atty. Poa and the previous witnesses for OVP, Mr. Ortonio, all admit that in regard to confidential funds, utilization of it, the signing of the liquidation reports, all of these were done under the authorization, direction, and approval of the Vice President. And when we hear from Mr. Fajarda, Then, we will most likely hear the same. But insofar as Atty. Poa was concerned, who you said in your offer has no personal knowledge regarding confidential funds, he might not be in a position to answer. So, move along, Atty. Jay, please. **[04:07:19.690] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, Your Honor. We're gonna wrap up already, sir. Kunti na lang. So, **[04:07:29.430] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** ulitin ko lang ako, no? Ang may alam, according **[04:07:35.490] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** to you, sa paggamit ng confidential funds, Vice Presidente at si **[04:07:46.340] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** SDO Fajarda sa Department of Education. **[04:07:49.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, pero maaari ko po pang dagdagan ng isa pang officer. **[04:07:52.900] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, si SDO, no? Sorry, Security Officer. **[04:07:57.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Dahil nalaman ko lang after the fact. Oo, tama. **[04:08:06.930] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** I'm sure kabisado nyo ho by heart na yung Joint Circular, Sir. **[04:08:13.580] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Nakita naman natin o nag-cross-examine kayo or not even looking at your notes. But you would recall the definition of senior disbursing officer, sir? **[04:08:22.760] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Special disbursing officer, sir. But I do not know it by verbatim so I will just confirm what you read, Your Honor. **[04:08:34.480] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay. **[04:08:36.690] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And the definition of a special disbursing officer, it refers to the head of agency or a regular employee designated by the head of agency to be in charge of making disbursements of confidential fund and or intelligence fund so received and accountable therefore. I **[04:09:05.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** confirm that, **[04:09:06.020] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor. Okay, you correct that. On the other hand, the **[04:09:12.000] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** meaning of a security officer, it says, it refers to a personnel. who by reason of his duty or employment has been officially designated as such to have access to security information. Tama ho? **[04:09:26.280] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama ba? **[04:09:27.140] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Maliwanag ho dito, walang nakalagay dito, ang security officer, meron ho siyang kapangyarihan to disburse funds. Tama ho ba? Now, **[04:09:35.540] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** this is argumentative, Your Honor. **[04:09:37.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Your Honor, again. **[04:09:38.760] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Again, Your Honor. All the counsel did was to read the definition under the Joint Circular and now he's leaping to another question implying something that wasn't there in the Joint Circular, Your Honor. I would have **[04:09:53.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** to sustain the objection, Attorney Jay. It is not stated there. **[04:09:59.440] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, it is not stated there. Thank you. It's not stated there that he has the power to make disbursements. Thank you, sir. Okay. And you will... Admit, in this entire joint circular, the only provisions that you will see where the word disbursement is offered, they all pertain to the senior special disbursing officer. **[04:10:29.390] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Correct, sir? **[04:10:31.160] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. Special disbursing officer or HOA, I think, **[04:10:33.980] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** is **[04:10:34.300] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** the more accurate. **[04:10:35.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, yes. If there's no SDO. **[04:10:37.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Okay. **[04:10:37.420] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Definitely not the security officer. I do not recall anything **[04:10:42.040] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** about the security officer. **[04:10:44.260] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That **[04:10:44.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** provision, 5.3, I think. **[04:10:53.410] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** You've mentioned a while ago that there's credit notice has been issued, correct? **[04:10:58.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct, Your Honor. **[04:10:59.050] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And that is, of course, only with respect to the first AOM, correct? **[04:11:03.710] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, covering first and second quarter only. And **[04:11:06.130] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** there's **[04:11:06.390] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** no credit **[04:11:06.810] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** notice with respect to the third quarter, correct? **[04:11:09.030] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** There's no credit notice. None that I know of, sorry, because I'm no longer with DepEd. **[04:11:18.770] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** You would also admit that at the time that the credit notice was issued, **[04:11:24.130] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** the **[04:11:25.680] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** AFP officers have not yet stated under oath the admissions that we heard today and which you also admitted to have heard. Correct, **[04:11:34.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** sir? Yes, yes. That was before the committee hearings and this, obviously, the impeachment. **[04:11:39.320] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** So, obviously, they were not able to take account of those statements. Correct, sir? **[04:11:42.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. **[04:11:42.860] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes, and you also admit that the three-year period within which to overturn that notice Credit notice has not yet lapsed. Correct, sir? **[04:11:50.650] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, it has not yet lapsed. **[04:11:52.110] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** That would be all for the witness, Your Honor. **[04:11:54.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. Attorney Sheila, any cross? **[04:11:58.360] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Let me, kindly give me a minute, Your Honor, because quite frankly, I think the witness was able to sufficiently respond. to the questions of the prosecutions. But maybe just one point or a few questions so that we **[04:12:16.630] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** no **[04:12:17.690] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** longer take much of the time of the court. Hopefully, **[04:12:20.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** we can dispense with Atty. Poa after your brief **[04:12:23.350] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** cross and the interjections of the senator-judges. Thank you, Your Honor. Magandang hapon, Atty. Poa. **[04:12:30.510] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Good **[04:12:30.810] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** afternoon, Atty. **[04:12:31.970] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Mike, I have to address you as Atty. Poa today because today you're a witness. Even as I knew you by your first name. Counsel asked you about the credit notice. You remember that? **[04:12:45.690] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[04:12:46.270] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** This was one of the last questions that he asked you during his direct examination. **[04:12:55.280] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Afterwards, he also asked you if you're aware that credit notice is also open for a re-examination, maybe reopened in three years. And that credit notice or that period of three years has not yet lapsed. Do you remember that, right? **[04:13:10.820] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[04:13:11.160] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Now, **[04:13:11.660] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** as far as you know... from your stay in the Department of Education or up until this point, there has been no such effort from the Commission on Audit to reopen that credit notice for the first and second quarter, correct? **[04:13:27.640] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** As far as I'm aware, none at the moment. **[04:13:30.460] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** And so if there's also a credit notice, you are also aware that this is an official document issued by the COA basically or essentially stating that the funds or the subject expenditures were audited and cleared in audit. You are aware of that. **[04:13:45.890] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, yes. **[04:13:46.690] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** And since there's a credit notice, this audit observation memorandum or memoranda for first and the second quarter that the counsel had confronted you with earlier during your direct examination, these two AOMs did not escalate into any notice of suspension, correct? **[04:14:08.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[04:14:08.830] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Also no notice of disallowance, correct? **[04:14:10.830] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[04:14:11.450] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** And as to the third quarter, also at this point, notice of suspension, correct? **[04:14:18.020] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** None that I **[04:14:19.220] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** know **[04:14:19.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** of. And **[04:14:20.100] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** what about notice of disallowance, are you aware? **[04:14:22.020] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** None that I am aware of. **[04:14:23.780] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** That is all for this witness, Your Honor. Thank you. **[04:14:25.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. **[04:14:28.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Redirect, counsel? **[04:14:29.860] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** This credit notice, when this was issued, the COA relied upon the reply that you submitted, correct? **[04:14:44.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I **[04:14:44.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** can only speculate. **[04:14:45.460] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Okay, but it was issued after you submitted that reply because first they stated there were deficiencies. After you submitted the reply to give your explanation with respect to those deficiencies, a credit notice was issued. **[04:15:01.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[04:15:02.760] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And in making those explanations, your justifications was the AFP certificates. **[04:15:08.380] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** One of them. **[04:15:09.240] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Yes. With regards to the rewards. To prove the evidence of success, what you submitted as proof of those were the AFP certificates, correct sir? **[04:15:18.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, that's correct. **[04:15:19.430] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** And all of the statements given by the witnesses, I mean by the AFP officials who themselves issued these certifications, everything that they've stated, even your statements about it, **[04:15:34.630] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** when **[04:15:35.530] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** asked about Representative Flores, whether it's tama po, you answered yes, all of these matters, are not changed just because a credit notice was issued. Correct, sir? **[04:15:46.920] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. **[04:15:47.640] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Correct. **[04:15:48.780] Atty. Benjamin Tolosa Jr.** Thank you. That will be all, Your **[04:15:50.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Honor. **[04:15:50.260] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Recross, Your Honor. **[04:15:51.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Recross, Attorney Sheila. **[04:15:53.850] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Counsel asked you about the credit notice. Again. Yes. And this credit notice was issued on August 8, 2024. Are you aware of this? **[04:16:03.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[04:16:04.480] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** And AFP officers testified before the Committee on Good Government and Public Accountability on October 17, 2024, correct? **[04:16:13.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[04:16:13.640] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** And the representatives from the Commission on Audit also attended the hearings before the Committee on Good Government and Public Accountability, correct? **[04:16:22.640] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[04:16:23.520] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** And so from August 8, 2024 up to today, and despite having heard the Commission on Audit, I mean the AFP officers at the hearing on October 17, 2024. As far as you know, the Commission on Audit has not reopened this credit notice, correct? **[04:16:44.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** As far as I know, that's **[04:16:45.760] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** correct. And this has gone through two impeachment efforts already, correct? **[04:16:50.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct. **[04:16:51.420] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you, Your Honor. No more questions. **[04:16:53.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. Interventions by Senator-Judges. I see Senator Villanueva followed by Senator Tulfo, Erwin, thereafter, Senator... I think Annika has a list. **[04:17:11.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Let's try to finish, attorney po, before we adjourn today's trial with the cooperation of our colleagues so that according to the Senate President, **[04:17:20.590] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** we **[04:17:21.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** can convene at three or thereabouts. The first one to register, my bad, my mistake, is Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo. You are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. You **[04:17:33.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** have two minutes. **[04:17:37.670] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Salamat po, presiding officer. Attorney po, when did you get to know VP Sara? **[04:17:46.850] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Ito po ba kayo po ay nirekomenda sa kanya or kakilala niyo na po siya bago **[04:17:52.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** pa siya maging VP? Nakilala ko lang po siya. Good afternoon, Mr. Senator-Judge. Nakilala ko lang po siya noong sometime July 2022. Noong siya po ay vice-presidente na at tinalagang Secretary of Education. **[04:18:08.990] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Meron po kaming common friend na nagsabi sa akin. na kailangan niya ng tao para sa GSIS, concerns ng mga teachers, kaya po pinag-apply ako. So I went through a panel interview na wala siya, physically, panel of academics. **[04:18:25.190] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** So are you grateful for that, Atty. Poa, na napili po kayo ni VP to join her **[04:18:34.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** team? Of course, yes, sir. But initially, I was reluctant kasi ang ina-plan ko, akala ko, ay really to help GSIS teacher loans. Pero noong una kong beses ko po siyang makaharap ng in-person, doon po niya lang ako sinabihan na kung pwede ako mag-spokesperson. **[04:18:51.190] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Sir, as the VP sa COS, spokesperson, and then head of procurement of the department, did it ever occur to you na one of your responsibilities, syempre, is to protect po the VP from investigations and lawsuits. At kailangan po, dapat di po ba na due diligence lagi para to protect, ika nga, the Secretary. Kasi baka around her may mga tao na mga luko-luko, will do something, will harm her, makasuhan siya, ika nga, imbestigahan siya. **[04:19:25.880] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Of course, Sir, innate naman po yan na talagang gusto mong protectahan ng boss mo kung hanggat-hanggat legal at makakaya. **[04:19:33.630] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Matapos po na magpalabas na notice of disallowance ang COA sa OVP, may binigay ba ng specific directive si VP Sara na sagutin ang mga disallowances na ito? **[04:19:45.230] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Noong lumabas po ang disallowance sa OVP, sir, kasi nasa DepEd pa po yata ako noon, so it's probably with the OVP personnel, but noong nasa commission proper level na, I think we were already involved as lawyers na po niya. **[04:20:03.490] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Nasa DepEd pa rin po ba kayo noong may mga luwabas ng mga DepEd officials na inakusahan ang VP na Secretary, VP slash Secretary ng Cash Envelopes. Nagsagawa po ba kayo? Kung naroon pa po kayo? Wala na? **[04:20:19.740] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Wala na po eh. Ano na po noon? Yun po ay nangyari noong committee hearings sa House. Nag-resign na po ako noon sa DepEd noong July 19. **[04:20:31.060] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Sa House hearing po at kahapon dito po sa impeachment court, yung DepEd certification for youth summits, ginamit po... to justify daw ang OVP confidential fund usage. Sino o kaninong ideya itong cross-agency justification po para despite the fact that the AFP said it is their own effort yung YLS po na ito and not DepEd. Did VP Sara approve it po? **[04:21:00.550] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sir, yung DepEd, sa totoo lang, and I'll be very honest with you, noong humingi ako ng certifications, Mas gusto ko talaga kung third party kasi kung mismong DepEd ang mag-certify para sa akin, hindi ko alam kung totoo o hindi eh. So, I wanted a third party. So, noong nakita ko yung AFP certifications na binigay sa akin ni Yusek Mempin, I relied on the certifications. But the Vice President never asked me to ask for the certifications or approve them. Although, I must say, nakwento ko sa kanya na yun ang na provide sa atin mga certifications ng AFP. **[04:21:39.610] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Did you act strictly upon orders of the VP or do you possess discretionary authority, attorney, to disburse or reallocate agency budget on your own? **[04:21:50.690] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Wala po akong power to reallocate agency budget. So, **[04:21:55.110] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** it's based upon the approval of the VP. Tama po. **[04:22:00.330] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I would assume, sir, kasi I'm not aware of any reallocation that we did with the budget. **[04:22:04.690] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Last question, Mr. Presiding Officer. I know I'll run out of time. Maari mo bang ipaliwanag ninyo, Atty. Poa, kung paano ang isang civilian agency and DepEd will incur 125 million in confidential security obligations bago pa man po marilis ang pondo? Ito po ay ayon sa testimony na rin po ni OVP Assistant Secretary Ortonio na nagkaroon po ng cash advance para bayaran ang tinatawag na obligations already incurred. Can you explain that, sir? **[04:22:31.850] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sir, sa DepEd po kasi walang ganyan. So pagdating sa OVP, nasa teorya na po ng kaso ng defense and being a lawyer, of course, I cannot disclose that now. But from my personal knowledge, sa DepEd po kasi hindi kami gumastos ng anything until dumating yung GAA ng 2023. **[04:22:50.040] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Okay. Sir, as a lawyer, when you saw fictitious or untraceable individuals, mga alias, sir, you know that, sino ho nag-authorize and distribution of public funds to these unverified entities, sir? **[04:23:08.380] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I would assume, sir, yung mga signatory po ng mga reports natin. **[04:23:15.100] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Pero were **[04:23:15.820] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** you aware, sir, na gumamit po sila ng mga fictitious? **[04:23:18.740] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po eh, kasi Sir, noong, pwede po ma-explain? Wala naman po **[04:23:23.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** kasama sa time nyo. Noong hiningi ko yung DEPs kasi kasama yun ng AOM, actually binibigay sa akin yun ni Mr. Fajarda noong sasubmit na sa akin in a sealed envelope. Sabi ko, pwede bang pakita? Kasi... Ako yung tayong magsasubmit. Gusto ko man makita. Sabi sa'yo, sir, kasi confidential yan. Sabi ko, hindi, bigyan mo lang ako kahit isang sample para alam po naman kung ano yung sinusubmitin natin. So, pinakitaan po ako ng, in-unseal yung envelope, pinakitaan ako ng acknowledgement receipt. So, I don't remember any fictitious. Nakita ko po yung mga names na masabi natin kakaiba noong congressional hearings na po. Noong pina-flash sa screen. yung mga Mary Grace Piatos, etc. na pinapalabas ay kakaibang mga pangalan. So, at that time that I was in DepEd, sir, wala po akong nakita na mga ganitong acknowledgement receipts. **[04:24:21.860] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** One last quick question. Had you known, have you seen these fictitious names? Will you question them? Sir, kung nakita ninyo fictitious at kahinahinala, will you... Question. **[04:24:34.440] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Well, **[04:24:34.760] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** sir, one, I will ask if that's allowed in confidential operations. Kung talagang fictitious or ano, aliases. And yun po siguro ang una kong gagawin before I question. Kasi wala po akong military background, wala po akong intelligence background. So ano lang po alam ko is based on what I read, basically. **[04:24:54.400] Sen. Erwin Tulfo** Thank you, Mr. Witness. Mr. Presiding Officer, thank you. **[04:24:57.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. Just a brief for the information of the senator-judges. We checked through the clerk. **[04:25:09.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** What is an audit query memorandum? An audit query memorandum is being issued by COA auditors addressed to their respective auditees to document their queries relative to their audit. It is aimed to answer questions that may either lead to a clarification or may lead to the issuance of an AOM or other appropriate notices. So, chair confirms. Please state the order **[04:25:35.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** made by Attorney Poa. Next **[04:25:37.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** is attorney, senator-judge Pangilinan, attorney Pangilinan as well. Good afternoon. **[04:25:43.160] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Good afternoon. **[04:25:44.360] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You may proceed, sir. **[04:25:45.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** You have two minutes. **[04:25:45.700] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Attorney po, thank you. **[04:25:50.310] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Based on the joint circular, which I'm sure you're so familiar with now, may vault ba, as required, may vault ba yung DepEd? **[04:26:00.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. I mean, according to the Joint Circular, may vault na required. Yes. But ako, hindi ko po nakita yung vault na yun. Wala akong nakita yung vault nung nasa DepEd po ako. So **[04:26:11.060] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** you wouldn't know kung may vault o wala? **[04:26:13.280] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I wouldn't know, sir. So you wouldn't know **[04:26:15.340] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** kung compliant? ang pag-report sa response sa AOM. **[04:26:21.530] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, I think it would be SDO Fajarda kasi ako personally, sir, I would tell you naman pag may nakikita ako eh, wala akong nakita ang vault. Pero **[04:26:28.350] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** kayo yung sumagot kasi noong AOM. **[04:26:30.510] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. **[04:26:30.850] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Hindi ba bilang abogado, para maging compliant, hindi ba dapat chineck mo kung mayroong vault? **[04:26:38.790] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, to be perfectly candid, wala kasing finding on the vault. So, sa totoo lang, sir, hindi... Kung nanatanong sa SDO yung vault. **[04:26:48.410] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, you're also familiar. Sabi mo nakita mo yung ilang mga acknowledgement receipts which were in a sealed envelope. **[04:26:56.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. I saw, I think, one or two lang. **[04:26:59.980] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** Because you had to respond to the AOM, hindi po ba? **[04:27:03.520] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, **[04:27:04.280] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** I had to ask what it was. You were instructed to respond to the AOM. Therefore, you had to provide the... **[04:27:14.220] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** justification, documentation necessary to address the findings. **[04:27:18.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's correct, sir. Now, **[04:27:20.600] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** earlier in your testimony, you said when you received the AOM in February of 2024 and you were instructed to make the necessary defense of your expenditures, particularly sa confidential funds, sinabi mo, you had to get it from the field. Sabi nung SDO, they **[04:27:43.300] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** have to **[04:27:43.740] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** get it **[04:27:44.000] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** from the field. So **[04:27:44.900] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** it was not in **[04:27:46.790] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** the vault? Well, based on logic, it was not in the vault at the time I asked for it, sir. Because it's required that **[04:27:54.730] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** the proof of payment, receipts, AR should be in a sealed envelope in the vault. **[04:28:03.130] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's why, sir, I had to ask even if you check the records, I had to ask for a 60-day extension from COA to submit. Kasi ang sabi sa akin, hindi mako-comply within 15 days. **[04:28:14.290] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** And the acknowledgement receipts here, you probably can confirm, the dates are July 2023, July 2023, September 2023. In other words, halos 6 na buwan na o 7 buwan na wala sa vault after ginastos. Kasi ang requirement, dapat merong proof of payment na nilalagay sa vault para... Kasi yun ang requirement ng joint circulars. **[04:28:47.990] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sir, with your indulgence, baka better to ask SDO Fajarda. I know. At the time, hindi ko alam kasi kung hindi pa kumpleto o wala talaga so I cannot answer truthfully. **[04:28:58.110] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** I'm only responding to your point that you **[04:29:00.990] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** had to **[04:29:01.170] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** get it sa field. **[04:29:02.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yun ang sinabi **[04:29:03.690] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** sa akin. **[04:29:03.870] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** And **[04:29:03.990] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** therefore, because you had to get it in the field... nine, six months after it was spent, it was still in the field. That's my understanding. It was not in the vault. But you opened, you said, you opened a sealed envelope. Would you know when that envelope was, sealed envelope was prepared? **[04:29:22.910] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I don't know, sir. Pero napakita sa akin po yun, sir, noong ano na. I think a day before isasubmit yung co-response ko kasi fina-follow up ko eh. Kung nasaan na yung ano. **[04:29:34.460] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** So, siguro, to wrap up, yun lang siguro ang concern, no? You don't know if there is a vault, which is, if walang vault, violation ka agad yun ng joint circular. You don't know if it was, this was kept in an envelope because you said it was in the field, or the SDO said it was in the field. So, most likely, it was not in an envelope in the vault. So, another violation. Walang vault. I don't know. **[04:30:01.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I don't know kung meron o wala. Yes, **[04:30:02.940] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** so in other words, maraming mga hindi masagot dito sa katanungan kung tama ba ang paggastos ng confidential fund, yung handling ng pondo. E talagang ginastos ba sa mga sinasabi? O gawa-gawa lang ba ang mga dokumento dahil nasa field pa? Hindi natin alam. Yun ang medyo trahedya rito. Nais natin malaman ang katotohanan, pero hindi... nakukuha sa mga testigo yung katotohanan. Medyo malungkot. **[04:30:34.090] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sorry, Your Honor. Pagdating sa akin, I really kasi don't have personal knowledge. Kung meron lang po akong personal knowledge, Your Honor, I would gladly answer. **[04:30:42.130] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** I understand. Plus the fact that I think you're a UP graduate, no? **[04:30:46.210] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor. So I **[04:30:48.070] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** will be **[04:30:49.970] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** kind to my **[04:30:51.590] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan** fellow graduate. Thank **[04:30:53.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you. **[04:30:55.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator-Judge, thank you, Senator-Judge Kiko. Senator-Judge Villanueva. **[04:31:03.940] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Thank you, Sir Presiding Officer, Sir President. **[04:31:10.160] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Atty. po, in that same reply, yung DepEd dold ko, that AFP certifications were evidence of programs and activities, and I quote, directly resulting from the information provided by informers. Kahapon po, sabi nung AFP witnesses, they made clear that certifications were about the conduct of the regular activities and did not themselves establish any connection to DepEd informants. So ang tanong ko po, ano po yung factual basis nyo for using those certifications to make that specific representation to COA? **[04:31:42.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yung naging basihan ko po doon, kasi when I received the certifications, obviously, sir, I did not consider them in isolation. Binasa ko lahat ng natanggap ko. Kasi syempre, Kahit yung YLS, sa totoo lang, hindi ko naman alam yung YLS program na yun. So nung binasa ko, kaya ko po na sabing, sige, isumitin natin to, dahil po dun sa mga linya that says that due to a synergistic exchange of intelligence and information, they were able to target areas where it will be held. So yun po ang naging basihan ko, bakit nasabi ko na, oh sige, ito ang... ilakip to. But just to clarify, Your Honor, hindi lang po kasi AFP ang hiningaan. In fact, I approached other USECs to ask kung sa kanila, for example, the USEC for operation, tinanong ko kung Sa kanya, meron din ba siyang alam na ganun? Kasi may mga meetings kaming na-attendan before about teacher scams and all that. So tinanong ko rin. Kaya lang, unfortunately, ang dumating lang po talaga sa akin ay itong certification. So yun lang po ang na-attach ko doon sa aming response. But you also said, hindi lang yun dapat. Sa akin kasi hindi ko alam kung sufficient na yun, Your Honor. That's being candid. So when I submitted it to COA, Siyempre, you're hopeful na COA will find its official. So you **[04:33:04.940] Sen. Joel Villanueva** agree with me. Yesterday, sinabi ko dun sa dalawang officials ng AFP, **[04:33:08.880] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** it's **[04:33:09.340] Sen. Joel Villanueva** not enough. And just what you said, hindi lang dapat yung certification. Meron po ba kayong separate document na nakita other than that? **[04:33:17.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Wala na po except for the, kasi ang liquidation naman talaga ng reward payment is yung dapat yung acknowledgement receipt. **[04:33:24.260] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi **[04:33:24.940] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ko nakita yun. Ito naman po yung proof of success. Ito lang po yung nakita ko, yung mga certifications po ng AFP. **[04:33:31.780] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Now, in the previous hearings, you testified when you received AOM, you asked Usec Mempin for accomplishment reports and not just AFP certifications. **[04:33:41.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[04:33:42.100] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Pero noong April 17 na reply that you signed, You presented pa rin yung AFP certifications as evidence. Kasama po ba dito yung hinahanap nyo accomplishment reports? **[04:33:53.680] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Ang explanation po sa akin, hindi po eh. Obviously, nasagot hindi po. Ang explanation po sa akin is that is how daw accomplishment reports are given. It's through certifications. That was the explanation given to me. But I did not... **[04:34:06.960] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Who gave you that? **[04:34:08.020] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Usec. Mempin. **[04:34:08.920] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Okay. **[04:34:11.500] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And did you furnish Usec. Mempin about the AOM? and explained that COA was actually specifically looking or requiring proof connecting the information supplied by informers to the successful activity. When **[04:34:24.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I talked to Usec. Mempin, Your Honors, right after Feb. 2, there was a flag ceremony right after kasi may meeting ang EXECOM after. every flag ceremony. So, nag-usap kami. Sinabi ko, meron tayong AOM. Nag-humihingi sila ng documents evidencing success para sa rewards na naibigay. So, ang sabi sa akin ng SDO, baka puwedeng i-follow up sa'yo yung mga documents evidencing success. Sorry, I think the time is running. So, yun po ang pagka-explain ko sa kanya. **[04:35:01.190] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Sorry, sorry, please, please continue. **[04:35:02.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** But, Your Honor, ang sabi ko, tingnan sa field, sa ground, kasi si Usec. Mempin, just for context, used to be the security consultant of DepEd. So, sinabi ko sa kanya, pacheck sa ground kung merong mga ganong accomplishment report sa'yo na makukuha. Ngayon, kung wala, hindi ko sin-expect kung meron o wala. Kaya kumuusap rin ako ng ibang Usec., just in case. **[04:35:22.700] Sen. Joel Villanueva** But **[04:35:22.900] Sen. Joel Villanueva** did Usec Mempin personally confirm that AFP activities resulted from information supplied by DepEd informers who were paid the 15.54 million? **[04:35:33.860] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Wala po siyang na-confirm sa akin na ganyan. Ang nabigay lang po niya sa akin yung mga certification and then based on the certification, yun nga po yung nakasulat which I found responsive but whether the four certifications are enough or not, I... I was hoping it would be enough. **[04:35:53.400] Sen. Joel Villanueva** So kung wala po, then the statement that AFP activities directly resulted from informer information was a conclusion made by the department? **[04:36:03.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, it was stated po kasi sa AFP certification. Sorry. Pero anyway, meron naman po kayong kopya. It says there na may intel exchange. At least for some or a few of the certifications. So yun po naging basis ko. **[04:36:24.700] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Okay. **[04:36:28.390] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Doon po sa mga certifications, at that time these certifications were issued, ano po yung original purpose for which DepEd obtained **[04:36:36.050] Sen. Joel Villanueva** this? **[04:36:37.880] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa aking pagkakaalam, yun lang po yung purpose na nakuha ko siya is I really wanted to... I reiterate ko lang po. Kasi **[04:36:45.900] Sen. Joel Villanueva** yung **[04:36:46.100] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** purpose, sabi **[04:36:47.000] Sen. Joel Villanueva** ho nung mga militar, hindi ho sila sinabihan kung anong purpose. **[04:36:51.590] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** So, I don't know kasi ano yung naging usapan ni Usec. Mempin with the military so I cannot attest to that. But for me, nung natanggap ko siya, siyempre, ang impression ko, sir, is this will show the success of the operations. But as to kung anong na-communicate sa military, I don't want to say anything. Because **[04:37:12.770] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** they're not aware that that's going to be used. At hindi ko sila kilala personally kasi, sir, yung mga military. **[04:37:21.870] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Were they informed na gagamitin ito sa COA? **[04:37:25.110] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** According to their testimony, they were not informed. Ako, I don't know what Usec Mempin told them but I will just base it on their testimony, sir, na they were not informed. **[04:37:37.560] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And would you say pre-existing documents ito bago ang AOM? **[04:37:43.680] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Bago ang AOM, based on the dates, I think, sir, the dates won't lie naman. So, it appears that nauna yung certification bago yung AOM. **[04:37:54.680] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Last na po, Mr. Presiding Officer, I'm winding up. So, the AOM was referred to you while you're serving as OIC? **[04:38:05.650] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** OIC, USEC for Finance, sir. Kasi siya talaga yung tumatanggap ng AOM. **[04:38:10.650] Sen. Joel Villanueva** You're not the... SDO or the officer who conducted the confidential operations. **[04:38:16.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I never was, sir. I never was. **[04:38:18.250] Sen. Joel Villanueva** You explained that you have no personal knowledge of the actual utilization and relied on documents. Only documents furnished to you. **[04:38:25.290] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. **[04:38:26.550] Sen. Joel Villanueva** And to clarify, your signature on the reply does not necessarily mean you personally participated in direct knowledge and or the underlying... of the underlying confidential fund transactions. **[04:38:40.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, sir. It was a signatory in representation of management or the **[04:38:45.000] Sen. Joel Villanueva** department. Meaning everything you do is in good faith, passed on official records and outside certifications, formally furnished to you. **[04:38:53.260] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Of course, sir. **[04:38:53.740] Sen. Joel Villanueva** Thank you. That's clear. Thank **[04:38:55.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you. Senator-Judge Hontiveros, you have two minutes, ma'am. You may proceed when you're ready. Thank you, Senator-Judge Villanueva. **[04:39:07.570] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Gandang hapon po, attorney po. Gandang **[04:39:11.710] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** hapon po, Madam Senator-Judge. **[04:39:13.710] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Attorney, sa testimony po ni Roderick Wamil, sinabi niya na sa isang meeting na kasama si Attorney Zuleika Lopez, ni-request niyo na huwag munang mag-issue ang COA ng audit observation memorandum pero audit query muna. Bakit niyo po yan ginawa? **[04:39:37.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa aming pananaw po, **[04:39:38.760] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ang audit query was something suggested, if I recall, by one of the finance people that were there, either OVP or DepEd, di ko **[04:39:48.160] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** na po maalala kung sa sino sa kanila. But, ginawa po namin yun dahil sa aming naging pag-uusap with COA. Kung clear yung guidelines, tapos meron kami hindi nasunod, AOM. Pero kung, since may agreement naman tayo na yung mga hinihingi ng COA ay hindi naman specified sa PFP, I mean, sa JC, ibig sabihin, walang guidepost ang isang ahensya kung paano niya, kung anong isusulat niya sa PFP. Baka po pwedeng audit query na lang ang iano nila para makasagot muna kami. But, Tama naman po ang sinabi ng auditor na sinabi nila na hindi daw pwede at AOM ang pwede nilang i-issue so we just let the issue rest. **[04:40:39.250] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Hindi malinaw ang guidelines nila or walang malinaw na guideposts dun **[04:40:43.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** sa JC? Hindi naman po sa hindi sumang-ayon and I'll be very honest. Talagang nagkaroon ng usapan na oo nga, walang nakasulat na ganito pero hinihingi nyo to. So ang hindi po sila sumang-ayon is dun sa request na baka pwedeng audit query na muna. Ang sabi nila hindi na nakasulat sa JC so kailangan AOM. So dun na po natapos yung usapan ukol dyan. **[04:41:07.490] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** At saka kasi kung sumunod naman ang OVP, kung sumunod naman ang DepEd sa tamang proseso sa paggamit at sa pag-liquidate ng kanikanyang confidential and intelligence funds, di po ba madali namang sagutin ang AOM? **[04:41:22.810] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. **[04:41:25.240] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Since this won't cut into your time, Madam Senator, can I just answer? Kahit po noong panahon ko naman sa DepEd, and the resident auditors of DepEd who were there when I was there would attest to this, every time magsabi sila sa akin na may magkaka-AOM, sinasabi ko lang, issue nyo, sagutin ko. Or minsan ako pa nga nagsasabi sa kanila, can you audit? something that I'm, feeling ko baka may kalokohan or something, so please audit. So, itong nangyari po sa meeting, hindi po dahil sa nahihirapan kami sumagot sa AOM or anything, it's just that, it was just based on the premise na since hindi malinaw yung guidelines, baka puwedeng ipaklarify mo muna sa amin. Now ngayon, kung para sa inyo, hindi pa rin tama yung clarification, then AOM. But I... Sabi talaga nila, hindi sila pwede mag-issue ng audit query at AOM lang and that was it. **[04:42:16.010] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Saka sabi nyo nga kanina, hindi tinanggap ng COA na malabo ang guidelines nila or guideposts. And sabi nyo nga, hindi naman or hindi mahirap saguti ng AOM. In fact, kung... sagutin lang ng maayos, hindi siya mag-e-escalate sa isang NS, lalong hindi mag-e-escalate sa isang ND. Kaya nakapagtataka, bakit nagaroon pa ng hiling na bago pa yung AOM, na badali namang sagutin kung sakali, sa halip na umusad, ay umatras pa ng isang hakbang dun sa audit query. **[04:42:51.200] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa totoo lang po, yun lang po yung pinanggagalingan nun, na we both, I think both parties saw the point of each other na **[04:43:00.310] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi specific yung JC sa kung anong hinihingi ng COA. And that's why, kung gusto niyong specific, we can clarify why ito lang yung isinulat ng, again, I'm speaking na kasi for OVP dahil OVP lang naman yung napagusapan doon, pero yun lang po yung pinanggagalingan na ang usapan kasi is the guidelines were very general, walang specific requirements on how detailed. **[04:43:38.890] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I'll leave **[04:43:39.810] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** it here for now. Observing lamang po na kung nga dun sa ibang mga sitwasyon na kayo ang naharap sa AOM at minsan kayo pa yung nagvo-volunteers ako na i-audit nyo ito, ito, ito. Kaya hanggang ngayon hindi ko pa rin masettle sa isip ko bakit kinailangan pang may paghiling na huwag i-AOM ang OVP kundi mag-audit query na muna. I'll move on po. Chief of Staff po kayo dati sa DepEd sa ilalim ni VP Secretary Duterte at sinundan nyo po siya sa OVP pagkatapos noon, tama po ba? **[04:44:11.470] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** As ano lang po, just yes po, pero as ano lang po ako noon, highly technical consultant, as a legal consultant of the OVP. **[04:44:18.890] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Alright. Ngayon naman po, bukod sa pagiging witness, abogado kayo na nagdedepensa kay VP Duterte sa impeachment na ito. Tama po. Knowing everything that you know now, I'm wrapping up for my first round, Mr. Presiding Officer. Knowing what you know now bilang isang tao, bilang isang abogado, knowing what you know now, lahat po ba ng ginawa ni VP Duterte sa confidential and intelligence funds ng OVP at ng DepEd ay naaayon sa batas at naaayon sa lahat ng rules and regulations? **[04:44:59.230] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor, I cannot answer that question. I'd love to answer that question, of course, pero Aside from it being attorney-client privilege, obviously whatever I say here will be biased, Your Honor, and so I just want to be objective and not answer that question. I hope you understand, Your Honor, with all due respect. **[04:45:19.080] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** I do understand. Bagamat nalulungkot din ako na a question na sabi niyo mismo bilang tao at bilang abogado, you would otherwise have loved to answer. **[04:45:31.380] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Because I would rather the evidence answer than a statement coming from one of her counsels, Your Honor. **[04:45:38.490] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat, Atty. Poa. Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer. I would **[04:45:44.130] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** have to agree with the statement of Atty. Poa because the answer would have called for him acting already as counsel and not as witness for the Vice President to state a matter of fact or law. The Senate President is recognized for his intervention. **[04:46:04.670] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Good afternoon, Atty. Poa. **[04:46:10.200] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Binabasa ko yung dalawang reply ng DepEd na kayo pumirma. Reply to COA. At nakasulat dito, ipa-flash a screen, pero nakasulat dito. **[04:46:20.540] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Activities, programs, projects, and activities directly resulting from information provided by informers during these specified periods. And then, tinitignan ko rin yung transcript kanina. Doon sa house, dated October 17. **[04:46:42.320] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Dito kasi sa letter ninyo, very specific, directly related. Tapos dito naman sa transcript, ang ginamit yung term, in theory. Bakit kayo nag-iba? Bakit lumambot yung sagot ninyo? **[04:46:56.370] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. **[04:46:59.120] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Mr. Senate President, kasi po, yung sagot po dyan sa AOM, yan po ang nasabi sa akin noong SDO. Diba? Yung SDO kasi ang may personal knowledge. So, when I wrote that letter, it was in representation of the position of DepEd based, of course, on the inputs given by the SDO. And, syempre, yung nakita ko sa certification. Pero, noong nasa house po kasi, ang tinatanong is, ano sa tingin ko? Basically, personal knowledge. So, syempre, sa personal knowledge, Ang pagkasagot ko na po doon is ano ba yung basa ko based on sa sinabi sa akin ng SDO at nabasa ko sa JC 2015. Kaya ganun po ang sagot ko. Kasi **[04:47:41.880] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** kung hindi nagkaroon ng house hearing on its face value, eh parang yung confidential funds nakatulong doon sa success. Pero iba naman yung naririnig namin kahapon doon sa dalawang colonel na hindi na gamit yung, wala silang nakuhang confidential information galing sa DepEd. So, with that, I'll go to the SDO kasi galing sa, sabi nyo, information yung galing sa SDO. **[04:48:08.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Anong **[04:48:08.920] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** exactly sinabi sa inyo ng SDO na... nagsulat kayo ng ganitong reply na very definite. **[04:48:16.170] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Ang sinasabi po kasi ng SDO, yung mga rewards, ginagawa nila, binibigay nila yung rewards dun sa nakakapagbigay ng information sa kanila. Ngayon, pagdating po dito sa nakuha ko yung mga certification, nakasulat naman po dun sa certification na because of the information given by DepEd. or intelligence pa nga sa isang sulat, eh na-target nila yung locations kung saan pwede sila maglunsad nitong mga programa ng itong YLS or IECs ng AFP. Base po doon, kaya po sinasabi ko na yung information derived from the informers, yun po yung naging, kumbaga, naging pamamaraan kung paano na-identify yung mga areas. **[04:49:09.820] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** At kung baga pinagsama yung sinabi ng SDO at yung nakuha kong certification. **[04:49:15.000] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Pero sinabi nyo rin kanina na meron pang security officer. Sinabi ba sa inyo ng SDO na siya mismo nagbigay sa informer? **[04:49:24.400] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** as **[04:49:24.960] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** payment of rewards at naging successful itong mga activities ng Army. Sinabi ba niya sa iyo na ako mismo nagbigay sa mga informers? **[04:49:34.480] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po. Ang sinasabi parati sa akin ng SDO, pag humingi ako ng kahit anong dokumento or eksplenasyon, ang sinasabi po ay galing sa field. In fact, kahit po yung security officer, Mr. Senate President, hindi ko po alam na may security officer at hindi ko po... nakita or nakilala si Colonel Nolasco noong panahon ko po sa DepEd. Isa-isahin **[04:49:56.340] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** natin. Si SDO ba nagbigay sa informers? **[04:50:00.650] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Wala po siyang nasabi sa akin ganyan. **[04:50:02.350] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Hindi mo tinanong siya kung siya nagbigay ng rewards to the informers that led to the success? **[04:50:08.410] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po kasi ang sinasabi parati po niya sa field. Itatanong niya sa field. **[04:50:12.190] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Sino si the field? **[04:50:13.370] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Ang impression ko po sa field is field operatives, Your Honors. **[04:50:23.370] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Diba dapat siya yung nagbibigay ng cash? **[04:50:26.810] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Wala po siyang nabanggit sa akin na ganoon na siya mismo yung nagbibigay ng cash. **[04:50:30.410] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Ba't hindi mo rin natanong? **[04:50:31.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi ko rin po tinanong na kung siya mismo ang nagbibigay kasi every time tanungin ko siya kung saan makukuha yung mga sagot sa AOM, ang parate ay base sa field or tinatanong sa field. So ang impression is field operatives based on what I was, when I was spokesperson kasi, siyempre nagpa-brief din ako sa iba't ibang mga kakilala ko lang on ano ba talaga itong mga confidential operations. **[04:50:55.140] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Nakausap niyo si security officer? **[04:50:56.980] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po, never. **[04:50:58.330] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Kasi dito, pag anong nang sagot nyo na hindi nyo alam sino si Dafield, parang dito, very definite na yung sinabi nyo na naging successful. And then kanina, narinig ko rin na humihingi kayo ng evidence of success sa other departments sa operation. **[04:51:14.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes po. **[04:51:14.690] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** But obviously, hindi naman nito ordinary success. Dapat may relation doon sa confidential information, **[04:51:21.630] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** diba? **[04:51:21.970] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Exactly, **[04:51:22.370] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Your Honor. So **[04:51:23.190] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** how do you now prove? na yung information na itong success na ito ay galing sa confidential information, doon sa payment of rewards. How do you now, itong sinulat mo, how do you now connect this to a successful payment of rewards that led to a successful operation? **[04:51:43.090] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Okay, I'll answer both questions, Your Honor. One on this first, and then doon sa other departments. On this first, kasi in-explain ko, kay Usec. Mempin na meron tayong AOM. At kailangan natin, basically, on the rewards, mapakita na may naging successful operation because of that. And since he's the one coordinating with AFP, ATC, yung Anti-Terrorism Council, even before, noong siya ay security consultant, kung anong ibinigay niya sa akin, siyempre po, ang reliance ko dun is Yun yung pinanggalingan nito, yung rewards. Pagdating naman po sa other agencies, kinausap po rin po yung USEC for operations dun sa scamming of teachers. Ganun din po ang pagkasabi ko. Ang pagkasabi ko, meron tayong AOM. Kailangan nating evidence of success. Tingnan mo nga kung merong mga naging successful operations because of any intel na nakuha natin due to confidential operations na maaring masabing nakapagbigay ng success na operations na yun. Sa kasamaang palad, wala po akong nakuha mula sa, I asked eh, from Presidential Anti-Organized Crime. **[04:52:58.140] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Yung impression ko kasi dito nag-justify ka muna saka niyo hinahanapan ng evidence. Yun ang impression ko dito. But in any case, last question, Mr. Presiding Officer. Ba't hindi mo nalang dinerecho si security officer? **[04:53:09.020] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi ko po siya kilala, Your Honor, noong panahon na yun. Hindi ko po alam na may security officer. Kung meron po, baka dinerecho ko na po siya noong time na yun. **[04:53:16.980] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian** Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you, Atty. Thank **[04:53:19.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you, Your Honor. Next would be Senator-Judge Rafi Tulfo. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes when you're ready. **[04:53:39.210] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Magandang hapon, Mr. Witness, Atty. **[04:53:40.990] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Poa. **[04:53:41.350] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Magandang hapon po, Sen. Tulfo. **[04:53:42.590] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Kamusta po kayo? **[04:53:43.550] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Okay naman po. **[04:53:44.990] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Kahapon, di naging malinaw sa akin noong tanungin kong prosekusyon tungkol doon sa supposedly reward money na galing sa confidential fund na binigay ng DepEd sa mga informants na sinasabi sa akin ranging from 100 to 200,000 pesos using unusual names doon sa mga informants. **[04:54:08.880] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Yung confidential fund na binigay sa mga informant doon ay cash ba o cash na pambili ng medicine o outright cash lang? Bahala na si informant. **[04:54:22.950] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Noong ano po, sir, Wala nga akong personal knowledge sa confidential operation. Pero tinanong ko kasi yung SDO. Kasi dun sa DepEd Accomplishment Report, merong ding provision for medical aid and food aid. So tinanong ko po yung tanong na yan. Ano ba to? Cash ba to? Or gamot na binibili nyo? Ang sagot po sa akin ng SDO is nag-a-allocate po sila ng cash para sa operatives. Para daw po sa safe houses, malagyan ng gamot or pagkain kung kailangan man. So, ang impression ko po doon, eh cash yung binibigay. Although I think better to confirm with the SDO kung cash ba talaga o mix siya na cash or may talagang gamot na yung binibigay nila. Pero ang pagkasagot sa akin, they allocate an amount kung ano daw kasi yung dumadating na acknowledgement receipt, naka-indicate daw doon. Purchase of supplies, food. Purchase of supplies, medicine. So, ang impression po nabigay sa akin ay cash. **[04:55:24.430] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** Cash. **[04:55:25.190] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. **[04:55:25.930] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** At wala nang resibo yun. Kung ano man pinabili ng cash na yun, whether medicine or anything at all. **[04:55:33.710] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa pagkaalam ko po, talagang acknowledgement receipts lang po ang nasubmit. **[04:55:39.230] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo** No further questions. Mr. President and Officer. **[04:56:09.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Judge Bam Aquino is recognized. **[04:56:20.450] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Magandang hapon, attorney po. **[04:56:21.830] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Magandang hapon po, Senator Aquino. **[04:56:23.150] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Yes. **[04:56:23.510] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Some preliminary questions. I only really have one question. Pero preliminary questions lang para malinaw tayo, no? So, yung ginastos na 15 million ng DepEd para sa Youth Leadership Summit, hindi yan para sa operations ng summit. for the security and surveillance priorities ng DepEd about the YLS. Ang **[04:56:47.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** pagkaintindi ko po sir, yung 15 million rewards, hindi ko po masasabi kung lahat yan ay really just for the YLS. So ang ginastos yan for information that they got from informants. Now whether or not the entire 15 million was used to For Intel Exchange, para ma-identify nila saan nila igagawad yung YLS, hindi ko po talaga masasagot dahil hindi ko po talaga alam yung kabuan. Ang masabi ko lang, I submitted the certifications from YLS kasi yan lang po yung nabigay sa akin. Now, whether or not that covers the whole 15 million of rewards, I cannot truthfully say yes or no. Kasi ang liquidation document for the 15 million is really the acknowledgement receipt or the DEP, kung meron mang resibo, resibo. Ito naman po ay just additional. Pag reward ang binigay, kailangan may evidence of success. **[04:57:39.760] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Kailangan natin klaruin yun ah. Sinasabi mo mo ngayon na yung informasyon na nabili or nakuha ng DepEd ay hindi lang para sa YLS kung hindi para sa iba't ibang mga activities or para sa YLS lang. Kasi ang dating nung accomplishment reports ninyo ay ito'y nakatukoy lang sa eight YLS activities ng Army. **[04:58:04.860] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Ang talagang truthful answer ko po dyan is hindi ko po alam kung yung buong 15 ay para sa YLS or meron bang sa YLS at meron bang sa iba pa. Hindi ko po talaga kayo masasagot truthfully. Thank you. **[04:58:18.640] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Let me clarify, pero sa accomplishment report, yung YLS yung nakalagay. Walang ibang activities na nakalagay. **[04:58:25.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yung sasagot sa AOM po, yung Ang nakalakip lang namin sa evidence of success ay YLS lamang. **[04:58:35.110] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So that's why currently, YLS talaga yung focus natin kasi yun yung nakalagay sa inyong sagot. **[04:58:42.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[04:58:42.550] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay. **[04:58:43.550] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Second question. Yung documentary, yung DEP, no? What's DAP again? **[04:58:50.230] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Documentary Evidence of Payment. **[04:58:52.590] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Lahat yan AR for the 15 million? **[04:58:55.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa pagkakaalam ko po, lahat po AR. **[04:58:57.210] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Okay. And lahat to, purchase of information? **[04:59:02.440] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sir, hindi ko kasi nakita lahat ng ARs eh. **[04:59:04.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** So, I think we'll know but nakita ko na kasi yan as a lawyer so I don't know if I should answer that but it's all ARs and it's purchase of information or rewards yung nakalagay. **[04:59:15.610] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** So, kaklaruhin ko lang ha. So, 15 million pesos. ang binigay na documentary evidence of payment ay mga AR. On rewards. Rewards for information. So lahat yan, yung activity na nakalagay sa mga dokumento, yung eighth na YLS. Okay. So ito yung tanong ko. Kahapon, binanggit ni Colonel Boransing na yung total spending ng Army is about 40,000 **[04:59:43.550] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** to 60,000 pesos. per YLS. So, ibig sabihin, yung 8 YLS na yun, hindi pa siguro lalampas yan ng 500,000 sa gastos ng Philippine Army. **[04:59:53.410] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[04:59:54.410] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Wala ho kayo dito kahapon, no? But, I wanted to ask, number one, alam nyo ba na yan lang yung gasto? **[05:00:15.660] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Ang layo ng ginastos ng lead agency, which is the Army. at yung ginastos ng DepEd, not even for the event, but for the security around the event. Sa computation po namin, it's anywhere from 25 to 30 times yung nagastos po ng DepEd. If you could answer that, Atty. **[05:00:34.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Poa. The first question is, hindi ko alam, pero siyempre nabalitaan ko. Nakita ko na po sa news this morning, I think. Secondly, ano pong naging reaction ko? Iba naman po kasi yung gastos ng, let's say, AFP sa pag... paglunsad ng isang programa na YLS. Yung sa DepEd naman po kasi, it's not to fund an event, but it's to fund the gathering of information to target areas, as far as I understand it, for yung mga saan ba maraming recruitment, saan ba talamak ang insurgency. So, in gathering those events, yun po yung intel based on the certification. sa pananaw ko na binibigay nila. So, sa akin, although I understand why that comparison is being made, para sa akin hindi kasi siya apples to apples. Kasi yung isa, regular funding or basically paglunsad ng isang event, ito naman ay para sa information gathering and I'm not an expert on how much information goes nowadays. But **[05:01:37.160] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** I can see what your point is. Salamat sa candidness sa pagsagot mo. Maybe we will have other witnesses or maybe Senator Lacson can help us understand ano ba yung tamang or ano ba yung usual na paggasto sa security versus the actual operations and event. Baka magandang malaman na rin natin ano yung usual. Kayo po, hindi naman kayo intelligence officer, hindi nyo po alam yung tamang ratio na **[05:02:04.280] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** iyon. **[05:02:05.260] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Salamat, **[05:02:05.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** attorney po. **[05:02:06.360] Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino** Thank **[05:02:06.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you, Senator Judge Aquino. Senator Judge Marcos, you may proceed, ma'am, with your interjections. You have two minutes. **[05:02:15.120] Sen. Imee Marcos** Yes, thank you very much, Presiding Judge. And without belaboring the point, ulit-ulit na natin pinag-usapan yung meeting tungkol sa audit query. At isang testigo nga na nauna sayo, si Atty. Wamil, e nagsabi na kayo ay umatendong meeting kasama ng COA tungkol sa credit. sa query, audit query, imbesh na AOM. Yun ang hiningi mo. **[05:02:40.620] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po. **[05:02:41.180] Sen. Imee Marcos** At andung ka, pero sinasabi mo na hindi ikaw ang tumawag ng meeting. Sino ba talagang tumawag ng meeting na yun? **[05:02:51.280] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Ang nag-inform po sa akin ng meeting na yun ay OVP at ayon po sa kanila, ang COA ICFAO daw po ang nagpatawag ng meeting na yun. Kaya po, pumunta kami sa office nila. sa Commonwealth. **[05:03:03.410] Sen. Imee Marcos** Kami **[05:03:03.930] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** po ang pumunta sa COA. **[05:03:05.210] Sen. Imee Marcos** Saan yun? **[05:03:05.850] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I think it was in Commonwealth, if I'm not mistaken. **[05:03:08.590] Sen. Imee Marcos** That's right. So hindi siya sa Pasig Compound and Deputy. Hindi po. Kami po yung pumunta. **[05:03:12.850] Sen. Imee Marcos** So pinatawag kayo. And can you explain what happened? Medyo magulo yung narration kanina. At ano yung participation mo? Kasi sabi mo nga na hila ka lang at OVP ang primary concern yata. Opo. **[05:03:27.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** OVP po yung primary concern. OVP got in touch with me. asking if I wanted to join since ako na rin naman ang USEC for Finance at that time. So, pumunta po ako. Akala ko pag-uusapan yung DepEd, pero ang sabi sa akin, hindi pa nila na-audit yung DepEd submission. So, ang nangyayari po noon, pinag-usapan lang po yung OVP. Ang pinagtalunan ng punawal, hindi naman pinagtalunan, ang naging discussion is, COA was asking, was telling OVP that they needed to be more specific with what they indicate. doon sa kanilang physical and financial plan. So doon, sinabi po namin na doon sa JC, it doesn't say how specific you should be. **[05:04:10.640] Sen. Imee Marcos** So **[05:04:11.160] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** that's why hindi naman nagkatalo. I think there was an agreement na oo nga, pero even if the JC doesn't say it's that specific, gusto namin ganito. So dahil doon, bungad po noon, nagsabi, ah kung ganyan, baka naman pwedeng mag-audit query na lang kayo para ma-explain namin yung side namin. Ngayon kung hindi pa rin, **[05:04:27.840] Sen. Imee Marcos** mag-AOM. Tama. Dahil tama ba na yung audit query? Iba kasi siyon diba sa AOM? Kapag audit query, tama ba na? Informal siya, usually collaborative, at saka hindi siya nakasulat. para matumbok ninyo yung specific requirements mismo ng COAT. Pwede **[05:04:47.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** rin pong nakasulat ma'am pero at least they're just clarifying kung they're asking for clarification bakit ganito lang ang sinubmit namin. **[05:04:55.220] Sen. Imee Marcos** Pero collaborative kasi ang pagkaintindi ko sa audit query samantalang yung AOM you have to reply within 15 calendar days tapos nakasulat din. Iba kasi. So para matumbok yung specific requirements ang audit query. ang tinanong ninyo. **[05:05:13.730] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Pero **[05:05:14.190] Sen. Imee Marcos** hindi na pagbigyan. **[05:05:18.970] Sen. Imee Marcos** At natuloy yung AOM, tama po ba? **[05:05:21.410] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, sa OVP. **[05:05:23.330] Sen. Imee Marcos** Isa pang tanong, you are the COS of the Secretary of Education. Maraming nagsasabi, imposible, na wala kang kinalaman sa confidential funds. Yet, you have repeatedly stated na hindi naman kayo kasangkot until COA came into the picture. Tama ba yung pagkaintindi namin? **[05:05:42.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Tama po, ma'am, kasi, and I understand the people who are asking, who are thinking, imposible naman na hindi niya alam, but anyone who has worked with the vice president would know that it's highly compartmentalized. So ibig sabihin **[05:06:02.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** kung anong binigay sa 'yo **[05:06:03.040] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** na function, yun lang yung tututukan mo. So, itong, yung binigay po sa'kin na mandato, noong when I finally became her chief of staff in April, kung tatandaan natin yung confidential funds, it started way before I became chief of staff. So, noong naging chief of staff niya po ako, ang sabi lang niya sa'kin, siguraduhin mo, di nag-aaway-aaway ang mga U6 na yan, siguraduhin mo maayos yung palakad. And yung meron kaming matatag agenda, she wanted me to meet all the targets. **[05:06:34.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Pagdating naman po sa confidential funds, hindi na po ako na-involved doon. Marami din po nagsasabi bakit hindi ko tinanong. Actually, noong spokesperson pa lang po ako, nagtatanong na po ako sa vicepresidente, ano po sasagutin ko sa media pag tinanong sa akin ng confidential funds? Ang sabi po niya, sabihin mo lang na ginagamit yan for anti-insurgency, anti ganito. Sabi ko, paano po pag humingi ng detalye? Ang sabi sa akin, ang mga detalya na yan hindi dapat sinasabi, sinasa publiko kasi magja-jeopardize hindi lang tayo pero ang intelligence community. So from me, ang basa ko naman doon, ayaw niyang i-share sa akin yung details so hindi na ako nagpumilit alamin pa. So **[05:07:15.670] Sen. Imee Marcos** maliwanag na maliwanag para sa iyo na yung confidential funds, hindi mo trabaho yun kahit COS ka ng sekretary? **[05:07:24.210] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, hindi po. **[05:07:25.490] Sen. Imee Marcos** Kaninong trabaho yun? I would, **[05:07:27.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** based on the documents, sa tingin ko po, doon po sa SDO at noong nalaman ko nga na may security officer pala kami, then I would say the security officer. **[05:07:35.500] Sen. Imee Marcos** Saka mo nalang nalaman? Kailan mo nalaman yung Colonel La Chica at yung mga security officer? **[05:07:40.360] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Noong nagsalita na po si Edward Fajarda, yung ating SDO, doon sa congressional hearing. Ah, **[05:07:47.660] Sen. Imee Marcos** saka mo lang natuklasan? **[05:07:49.520] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, kasi si Colonel Nolasco, actually, hindi ko siya... nakita sa DepEd noong mga panahon na nandun ako. Hindi ko siya kilala at all. Si Colonel La Chica, to be fair, kilala ko po siya kasi nag-courtesy call siya as the commander of VPSBG. **[05:08:04.460] Sen. Imee Marcos** Hindi as the operations head ng Confidential Fund. **[05:08:08.820] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hindi po. **[05:08:09.220] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** So, **[05:08:09.820] Sen. Imee Marcos** pinagtatakahan din ng iba kung bakit ikaw ang pinagsabihan na sumagot ng AOM since hindi ka naman kasama doon sa trabaho ng Confidential Fund. **[05:08:22.270] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yun po kasi talaga, Madam Senator, ang protocol sa DepEd. May procedure po yan. In fact, may office order yan saying that pag dumating ang AOM, ang sasagot ay ang mag-handle ay USEC for Finance with the AOM Task Force in coordination doon sa opisina na subject ng AOM. And in this case, na double whammy ako kasi ako yung OIC for finance tapos ako rin yung sa OSEC kung saan nandun si VP. So kahit hindi **[05:08:53.250] Sen. Imee Marcos** mo trabaho yung confidential fund, dahil nga sa double whammy na dali mo, eh ikaw ang magdadraft nung sagot. **[05:09:02.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Ako po. And it's not po unusual kasi po noong panahon na yan, kahit po yung ibang AOMs, Dumataan din po talaga sa akin lahat ng AOMs. So hindi lang po yan yung AOM na sinagot ko. **[05:09:14.500] Sen. Imee Marcos** Maraming nagte-text sa amin kung ano daw yung credit notice. Ano ba ibig sabihin ng credit notice talaga para sa DepEd? **[05:09:21.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa pagkakaintindi ko po, ang credit notice is it is issued when after audit, the funds disbursed were allowed in audit. **[05:09:29.240] Sen. Imee Marcos** So they were allowed. At tulad ng sinabi ni Atty. Sheila kanina, does it mean na hanggang ngayon, hanggang ngayon mismo lang, yung sagot ninyo sa AOM, Ay sapat para sa COA kasi hindi na sila nag-follow up eh. Sa **[05:09:45.480] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ngayon, yun lang po sabi **[05:09:47.060] Sen. Imee Marcos** ko. Sa ngayon. **[05:09:47.740] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa **[05:09:48.080] Sen. Imee Marcos** ngayon, **[05:09:48.760] Sen. Imee Marcos** as of today, diba? As **[05:09:50.220] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** of today. **[05:09:50.700] Sen. Imee Marcos** Sa pagka-intindi natin, talagang wala. At siguro yung huli na lang, yung Joint Circular, hindi nagbibigay ng exhaustive list ng mga required na documentation. to prove that confidential activities are successful. Kaya nagtatanong din kayo. **[05:10:09.340] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes po. **[05:10:10.100] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yun po naging purpose ng mga pagtatanong **[05:10:12.900] Sen. Imee Marcos** din namin. Anong sinabi nila? Ano ba talaga yung mga required na papeles? Kasi wala nga doon sa mismong joint circular. **[05:10:19.140] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Meron pong mga standards na sinabi ang COA. Gusto nila lahat ng activities. Meaning, kunyari, yung sa 4.8, yung purchase of information, kailangan daw naka-line item yun. Nilalagay mo kung magkano. by purchase of information, purchase of rewards, mga ganyan. I'm sorry. **[05:10:35.860] Sen. Imee Marcos** Nakakita ka na ba ng sample ng mga submitted documents na considered satisfactory to prove successful? **[05:10:43.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Wala pa po eh. Although nakita ko yung sa amin nung sumasagot ako ng AOM, syempre I was forced to ask for the documents to see kung ano ba talaga yung sinubmit namin. But from other agencies, to be honest, wala po. When I was spokesperson, I tried to get something para lang may masagot ako. **[05:11:01.690] Sen. Imee Marcos** Akala ko humingi ka ng sample para kopyahin ninyo. Wala **[05:11:05.630] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** pong nagbigay. Kasi **[05:11:08.070] Sen. Imee Marcos** ang pagkaalam ko talagang kanya-kanya yan eh. Diba? Depende sa ahensya. Discretion of the head of agency. Is that correct? **[05:11:15.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo, I do not, well, Your Honor, wala akong nakuhang sample. Ang totoo, **[05:11:19.960] Sen. Imee Marcos** wala pa akong nakikitang line by line din. Kaya, nagtataka ako at gusto kong alamin kung anong sinabi ng COA sa inyo, ano yung formatting, ano yung mga iba't ibang dokumento required na bilang katibayan ng matagumpay na operations. Thank **[05:11:35.460] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** you po. **[05:11:36.300] Sen. Imee Marcos** Okay, maraming salamat. Thank you po. **[05:11:39.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator-Judge Hontiveros, ah, **[05:11:43.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** before Senator-Judge Hontiveros, Senator-Judge Cayetano for his first round. **[05:12:16.070] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** prosecution. Kasi malinaw naman halimbawa sinabi natin binulsa or inangkin or kinuha yung confidential funds. Pagka ganun yung theory na kahit anong pondo ng gobyerno ay sinarili or hindi ginamit for public purposes pero binulsa, klaro yun. Klarong pagnanakaw, klarong it's **[05:12:36.910] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** a crime. Kaya lang dito mismo sa Joint Circular, There's a distinction between illegal, irregular, and improper. That's why I was trying to clarify whether the prosecution is saying per se binulsa or trying to prove a case by presumptions because it was either illegal, irregular, or improper. Having said that, as the presiding officer said, marami naman mga witnesses at lalabas ito. But I think... because this is highly technical at day 20 tayo. Maraming nanonood, maraming hindi. Napaka-importante linawin to. So I'll attempt to ask some questions to the witness but maybe one question to the prosecution mamaya. So with your permission, Mr. Presiding Officer, may I ask Attorney Pova some questions? Magandang hapon **[05:13:29.320] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** po, Sen. Cayetano. **[05:13:30.960] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** You don't have to give me the exact because... hindi ka naman nagdala ng briefer, but more or less, how many elementary schools do we have in the whole Philippines? **[05:13:40.340] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Ah, no, I'm sorry, Your Honor. But thousands **[05:13:42.920] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** and thousands? **[05:13:43.520] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Hundreds of thousands. 47,000 schools, public schools. 47,000 **[05:13:48.180] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** public schools, kasama na elementary, high school. **[05:13:51.240] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes. **[05:13:51.600] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Diba? And more or less, how many students? **[05:13:54.600] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Millions. **[05:13:56.740] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Ang public, ang school age is more than 20 million, diba? Okay. and then my private, my public. And when you're Secretary of Education, you're also Secretary of Private Schools, right? Not only public schools. **[05:14:09.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, there is a level of regulation, Your Honor. **[05:14:12.800] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** And whether it be violence, radicalization sa violence, like shooting sa school, whether it be communist extremism, whether it be yung ISIS type of extremism, vulnerable ang both public and public schools, right? **[05:14:30.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, of course, Your Honor. **[05:14:30.980] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** And both high school and elementary? **[05:14:32.900] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, **[05:14:33.220] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor. **[05:14:33.600] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** You monitored the hearing yesterday. **[05:14:36.040] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Just after, Your Honor. Hindi ako pinayagan manood. **[05:14:38.620] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Okay, sorry for that. But even yung sa military officer yesterday admitted that even sa elementary pa lang ay pwede nang magkaroon ng recruitment for extremism. **[05:14:51.620] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That's true, Your Honor. **[05:14:52.460] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Okay. So, how many disbursing officers do you have, SDOs? for confidential funds. **[05:14:58.330] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Just one, **[05:14:59.250] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your **[05:14:59.430] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Honor. So would it be practical if you have 43,000 schools and more than 20 million students for that one SDO to go all over the Philippines to give the funds for the confidential operations? **[05:15:13.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, Your Honor. In my opinion, just my personal opinion, it would be impractical. **[05:15:16.970] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Yes, and based on that opinion, since it's impractical, you're only left to do two things. Do not use it and bahala na si Batman, bahala na yung mga bata kung ma-expose sila sa mga to, or you devise a way that you think is in accordance with law, like assigning a security officer to receive the funds. **[05:15:37.790] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor, and aside from that, if I may add, the JC also provides for project officers, Your Honor. **[05:15:42.810] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Okay. The word project officers. **[05:15:44.250] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** So in your view, basta't yung SDO binigay sa project officers, hindi irregular yun? **[05:15:50.890] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Para sa akin, hindi po. **[05:15:52.330] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Is it illegal? **[05:15:53.860] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No, it's not illegal. **[05:15:55.000] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Is it improper? **[05:15:56.960] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** It's not improper. In my opinion, Your Honor. I'm trying **[05:15:59.940] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** to get the opinion of both. **[05:16:03.420] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** And **[05:16:03.900] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** then we will study and we will make our **[05:16:06.260] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** own **[05:16:06.640] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** conclusion. **[05:16:08.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** If I may just quickly explain so I don't eat into your time, Your Honor. The reason why I said in my opinion it's not illegal, improper, etc. is because if you look at the joint circular, item 4.16 would show that if there's any misuse, you can actually make even the project officers accountable, Your Honor. So sa akin, that presupposes na walang iligal kung siya ay **[05:16:30.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** nagkaroon ng custody of whatever family. **[05:16:33.420] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** You're familiar with the term sui generis? **[05:16:36.620] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, **[05:16:37.080] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Your Honor. **[05:16:37.480] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Can you explain a little bit? **[05:16:38.740] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** That it can be both legal or political. Yeah, **[05:16:44.480] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** and pag sui generis parang one of a kind minsan. So although the intelligence and the confidential fund, discretionary funds are not sui generis, have you ever watched a trial in public talking about confidential or intelligence? **[05:16:58.700] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** No. **[05:16:58.980] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** So that's why it's quite difficult for everyone to not only understand but explain or prove anything because nga we don't have anything to compare. **[05:17:08.950] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, and because of the clear and present danger of talking about these things in public, Your Honor. **[05:17:12.730] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Okay, so there's been many questions, not only today, not only to you, but many other witnesses, whether it's questions from the prosecution, questions from senator-judges, questions about san ginamit ito, etc. And tama ba, we've all... We've all asked certain questions like that and the answers of the witness says from the office of the VP and the office of the Secretary of Department of Education pointed to Colonel La Chica. **[05:17:44.830] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** For OVP, it was Colonel La Chica. For DepEd, kasi ang security officer po namin is Colonel Nolasco and I believe I'm the first DepEd. witness. **[05:17:53.990] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Okay, so let me talk first sa OVP muna, si Colonel La Chica. **[05:17:58.210] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Opo. **[05:17:58.590] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** So siya makakasagot? **[05:18:01.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** I suppose, Your Honor, in terms of operations. **[05:18:03.050] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Or put it this way, siya makakasagot o siya'y hindi makakasagot? **[05:18:06.870] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Siya nakakaalam. Kasi sa kanya binigay niya. **[05:18:09.810] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Siya ang nakakaalam. Yes. But as to kung makakasagot siya o hindi, Your Honor, **[05:18:14.390] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** hindi ko alam. **[05:18:15.750] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Then I'll **[05:18:16.070] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** amend. Siya nakakaalam. **[05:18:19.060] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** So, meaning, any other question to any other witness, either you have partial knowledge na kwento lang ni Colonel La Chica, or in other words, iba yung La Chica, iba yung Chica lang. **[05:18:30.330] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Yes, Your Honor. Like for me, everything **[05:18:32.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** would be hearsay, basically. **[05:18:34.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kindly wind up, Senator-Judge Allan, or avail of second round. **[05:18:37.890] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** My point, Mr. President and presiding officers, if we really want to know whether it was used or misused in the terms na binulsa o ginamit, It's Colonel La Chica who will be able to give the answers. Now, of course, whether it was disbursed irregularly or improperly, that's what we're determining now. And I might avail of the second round. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you, Attorney Poa. **[05:19:03.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank **[05:19:03.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** you, **[05:19:04.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator -Judge Alan, for your indulgence. Senator-Judge Hontiveros, for your second round, ma'am. **[05:19:16.890] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. **[05:19:20.330] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Attorney Poa, sabi niyo po sa testimony niyo dito, **[05:19:26.590] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Noong ginagawa nyo yung sagot sa COA, kinonsulta nyo ang SDO tungkol dun sa paggastos ng confidential and intelligence funds dahil siya naman ang may alam dapat, sabi nyo kanina. **[05:19:41.010] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** So, **[05:19:41.690] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** ano pong naging reaksyon ninyo nung nalaman ninyong hindi rin alam ng special disbursing officer dahil binigay niya lahat yung pondong iyon sa security officer? **[05:19:52.610] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Noong kausap ko pa lang po siya, sinasabi niya, ayon sa field, ganito, ganyan, ganyan na explanation niya sa akin. Noong nalaman ko na may security officer, basically ang reaction ko, **[05:20:06.110] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** ah, so yun pala yung field, yun pala yung, baka yun yung field, yung security officer yun. Dahil nalaman ko lang naman po yun dun sa Committee on Good Government. Actually, it was, I think, the last hearing na ng Committee on Good Government, Your Honor. **[05:20:18.530] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Pero hindi ba kayo nagulat na ganun lang yung sagot **[05:20:21.450] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** ng **[05:20:21.690] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** SDO sa inyo ayon sa field? Kumbaga hindi niya hawak iyong lahat ng impormasyon tungkol sa confidential and intelligence funds na siya ang accountable officer bilang SDO. Di ba kayo nagulat bilang chief of staff? **[05:20:38.150] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Sa akin po, since wala akong alam talaga on how it's operationalized, pero nung spokesperson ako, medyo nagpa-brief ako sa mga kakilala kong may alam dyan. I was really expecting na may operatives at doon niya kinukuha yung information. Kaya hindi ako nagulat nung sinabi niyang field. Although, hindi ko po talaga alam na meron pala kaming security officer. Kasi kung alam ko nun, di sana kinausap ko na lang yung security officer diretso. **[05:21:03.990] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Kahit yung pong puntong iyon eh, attorney, na hindi nyo alam yung may security officer ang department at hindi nyo kilala yung SO. Hindi ko ma-imagine kahit sa sarili kong sitwasyon. Katulad yun ang hindi alam ng chief of staff ko sa office ko dito sa Senate na may chief security ako at hindi kilala ng chief of staff ko yung chief security. Impossible para sa akin. Pero hindi rin ba kayo naggulat na yung special disbursing officer ay alam lang? na hindi rin niya alam lahat ng impormasyon tungkol sa operatives. Bilang siya yung accountable officer para dun sa Confian Intel Funds ng department. **[05:21:49.840] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Syempre, Your Honor, personally, medyo ano din, no? That's why I also was following, that's why I kept on following up, asa na yung sagot, because, yun, I expected na masagot ako kaagad, but... nagagaling pa raw sa field. But the difficulty in the questions kung nagulat ba ako o hindi, especially with the SO, is that right after po kasi malaman ko yung may SO, kung matatandaan nyo, naghahain na po ng impeachment complaints laban sa Vice President. So I was already her counsel. **[05:22:23.950] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Nalaman ko na basically kung anong kabuuan, but as counsel, I cannot disclose because that's attorney-client privilege. Pero yung po ang tanong eh kung hindi ba ako nagulat kasi nga yung time na yun, from the time nalaman ko na may SO, not long after, I was also engaged na as counsel and I was already able to, umpaga, look at the bigger picture. **[05:22:46.780] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Actually, side question ko lang po yung tungkol sa SO. Mas ang curiosity ko kung ba kayo nagulat sa kawalan ng kaalaman ng SDO dun sa CIF bilang kayo po yung Chief of Staff noong panahong iyon. **[05:23:04.850] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Kung **[05:23:05.550] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** attorney mapapatunayan na may sala si VP Duterte sa issue nito, **[05:23:13.670] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Posible bang may pananagutan din sa batas iyong mga tauhan niya sa OVP, mga tauhan niya sa DepEd na tumulong sa kanya pagdating sa confidential funds? **[05:23:27.660] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Well, as a lawyer, I would say, posible naman po. Just being objective, Your Honor. **[05:23:34.400] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Just being objective. At being objective pa rin, posible rin po ba na kasama kayo doon? Tama po ba yun? **[05:23:43.720] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Posible po. Sana po hindi, pero posible po. **[05:23:49.590] Sen. Risa Hontiveros** Salamat po muli, Atty. Poa. Salamat po, Mr. President. **[05:23:53.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. No other senator-judge registered. Senator Cayetano, do you want to avail of another round? **[05:24:00.860] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Senator Cayetano, you may proceed. **[05:24:05.940] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Just one question kay yesterday, Atty. Robles. **[05:24:12.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Rey, you are recognized. You may proceed. Atty. **[05:24:15.120] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Rey, we... **[05:24:17.640] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** If you need a minute, dun sa joint circular lang. Kasi yesterday your answer was that, my question was, whether the mere release of funds of the SDO to someone else, like a project officer, now described as a project officer, is unlawful or illegal? You said that's what the joint circular. Can I just know what part of the joint circular you were referring to? **[05:24:42.980] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Dalawang party po yun, no? **[05:24:44.680] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Okay. **[05:24:46.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Rey, kindly speak closer to the mic so that we can record it properly. **[05:26:10.920] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Your Honor, can I have a few minutes? I was not expecting that I would be called today. **[05:26:18.730] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Sir President, I don't mind. Do they want to answer tomorrow? **[05:26:21.770] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Here, **[05:26:22.610] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Your Honor. Yung first provision po is in **[05:26:27.280] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** paragraph 4.15. It says **[05:26:30.620] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** here that **[05:26:39.740] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** disbursement of confidential... I'm **[05:26:48.350] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** sorry, Your Honor. This is not the proper provision. **[05:27:01.840] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Here, Your Honor. Guidelines for the grant and liquidation of cash advance for confidential funds and intelligence funds and audit thereof. Part 6. Page 12. 6.1.1 Cash advances shall be used for specific legal purposes related to confidential funds and intelligence funds. unless, under no circumstance, shall it be used for liquidation of previous cash advance or be transferred to one accountable officer to another. Ito po, klaro. Kahit po accountable officer, hindi po pwedeng ilipat. Tapos, meron pa akong provision dito, yung sunod. **[05:27:52.180] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Sorry, sir. Kasi, the first part, no circumstance liquidation of previous cash advance. So wala naman sa tanong ko yun. Second, from one accountable officer to another. My question was an accountable officer to someone else like a project manager. I understand why hindi pwedeng accountable to accountable kasi hindi pwedeng dalawa ang accountable. Malilito kung sino i-prosecute. **[05:28:17.170] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** So by inference **[05:28:19.130] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** kayo yung sinasabi yung from one accountable officer to someone else. **[05:28:23.520] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** From one accountable officer nga po hindi na pwede to another. Lalo na po sa pangatlong tao na hindi naman accountable. At **[05:28:30.600] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** hindi rin po bonded. How do you explain 416 which mentions project officer? Which also may be held accountable with the SDO. **[05:28:40.910] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Opo. Pwedeng accountable yung project officer. **[05:28:51.100] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** So in **[05:28:52.380] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** your view, the project officer cannot hold money? **[05:28:57.250] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** I hear a yes somewhere there. So is it a yes or no? **[05:29:00.330] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Oo po. Kasi ang **[05:29:00.990] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** nakalagay po dito, kahit po yung security officer, he's only entitled to receive, to handle security information. As I **[05:29:08.690] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** said yesterday, I will not argue with you. **[05:29:10.890] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** I **[05:29:11.250] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** just want to know kung anong stand nyo. So ang stand nyo, ang project officer, hindi pwedeng umawak ng pera. **[05:29:16.110] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Hindi lang po dahil doon. Dahil nakalagay din po dito na you cannot transfer funds, intelligence or confidential funds. From one agency to another, **[05:29:25.500] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** si **[05:29:25.900] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Colonel Nolasco po at pati si Colonel Lachica, they are members of the armed forces. They are not employed by the DepEd or the OVP. Even if they **[05:29:36.140] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** are seconded to those agencies **[05:29:38.380] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** or designated. **[05:29:39.300] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** They are not **[05:29:39.780] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** employees of the DepEd or the OVP. Yun po yung pananaw namin. **[05:29:43.420] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** So even if someone is seconded to your office and you give them money, you consider that... **[05:29:52.430] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** From one agency to the other. By **[05:29:54.270] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** the definition po dito sa mismong Joint Circular, ang right lang po nila maghandal ng security information. **[05:30:02.360] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Okay. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you. Thank you, **[05:30:05.180] Atty. Reynaldo Robles** Attorney. **[05:30:05.440] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano** Thank you, **[05:30:05.700] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Ray. No other senator-judge registered to make their interjections. Attorney Poa, thank you for your time. Thank you for your cooperation. Thank you for your patience. And you may situate yourself upon descending the witness chair, the witness. stand to your proper place with the counsel for the respondents. **[05:30:29.060] Atty. Michael Wesley Poa** Thank you, Your Honors. Thank you for your patience as well. Maraming salamat po. **[05:30:32.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you. For some administrative matters, before we adjourn, we are in receipt of a request for the issuance of subpoenas at testificandum for Mr. Edward D. Fajarda, Mariza B. Grande, Police Major Jovelin Magay, **[05:30:54.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Atty. Sunshine Chary Fajarda and Mr. **[05:31:00.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Bresilo R. Sabaldan to appear on September trial dates on September 7, 8, and 9. Yes, Atty. Sheila? **[05:31:11.460] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor. Before the presiding officer issues the subpoena, may we just ask from the prosecution if **[05:31:21.800] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Police Major Jovelin D. Magay and Mr. Bresilo R. Sabaldan are among the witnesses they disclosed in their pre-trial brief and pre-trial order because we've consulted both and we could not find the names of these two witnesses. We would just also like to know if are they also part of the reservation made in the pre-trial brief, Your Honor. **[05:31:47.080] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Your Honor, to respond to the defense, we would like to confirm that these two witnesses are part of the reservation made by the prosecution in the pretrial brief which was carried over to the pretrial order issued by the Honorable Impeachment Court. **[05:32:04.280] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Then a follow-up question, Your Honor. Are these two witnesses substituting for disclosed witnesses, Your Honor? **[05:32:13.060] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Your Honor, our position is these two witnesses are additional witnesses anchored under the reservation made by the prosecution during the pre-trial conference, Your Honor. **[05:32:25.340] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Will the prosecution be willing to disclose even just the general purpose for the testimonies of these two witnesses, Your Honor? **[05:32:38.120] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Your Honor, we understand that prior to the presentation of these witnesses, there will be offer or purposes for the testimony of these witnesses. So with the indulgence of the defense, I hope that the prosecution will be allowed to make this statement of the nature of the testimony of these two witnesses during their presentation, Your Honor. **[05:33:02.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** With the indulgence of both counsels, **[05:33:07.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Even if they were not mentioned in the pre-trial order, this would fall into the five-day notice to be given to the parties, given that their names are now being mentioned on Wednesday, and we will be hearing them on a Monday. Number two, I understand the concern of Attorney Sheila with respect to the purpose, but to save on the court's time, because I have been hearing some concerns from senator-judges, For the information of the parties, both the prosecution, especially at this time that you're in the presentation of your evidence-in-chief, as well as counsel for the respondent, we will, the presiding officer will scrutinize the offer if it is relevant and if there is still a need to do so, to offer a witness for that particular purpose, if it is sufficiently established already from the point of view of the court. Again, in order to save on the court's... **[05:34:25.180] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I'm not objecting. I **[05:34:27.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** know, you did not object. **[05:34:27.780] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor. I'm just inquiring. **[05:34:53.750] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** whether these witnesses are disclosed in the pre-trial order and the reason why I answered on the purposes for the testimonial evidence of these two witnesses is just really to enable us to prepare responsibly for the **[05:34:53.900] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** examination of these two witnesses because we are aware that there's a representative from the NBI Questioned Documents Division and another witness for the COA but as the prosecution had confirmed these are practically **[05:35:14.310] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** substitute or surprise witnesses. We're just asking, we're not asking for additional witnesses, but in reality, we are now at the dark what these witnesses are for. I hope the counsel understands where we're coming from. I'm not asking for a detailed offer, Your Honor, just a purpose. For example, will Police Major Magay be also identifying the same documents that Caroline Maldes-Pitoy of NBI... **[05:36:02.660] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, **[05:36:04.940] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** may I make a quick response to that? **[05:36:07.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, **[05:36:07.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the Honorable Luistro, if you can. **[05:36:09.500] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** We recall, Your Honor, that during the pretrial conference, The prosecution requested the defense to make a brief statement about the gist of the testimony of the witnesses in their pretrial brief, Your Honor. And to that request, Your Honor, they declined. And they are now raising the same concern to the prosecution, which we have answered already, that it will be answered during the presentation by way... of the purposes for which the testimony of these witnesses will be offered, Your Honor. **[05:36:44.760] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I think, Your Honor, I will have to respond to that. **[05:36:47.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Can you respond before I make a ruling, counsel? **[05:36:50.080] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** That's actually a misrepresentation. The only problem is this. They cannot accept the description that we stated or indicated in our pretrial brief. It's not because there was no... **[05:37:05.720] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Statement of any purpose in the pre-trial brief. So it's incorrect or inaccurate to say that we had declined to disclose the purposes for the testimonial evidence that we intend to present, Your Honor. But here, this is a different situation, Your Honor. Here now, we have two new names with no purpose at all. That's not the case with their problem. with the description that we made in our pre-trial brief, Your Honor. It's just a matter of acceptance or refusal to accept that these are sufficient explanations, Your Honor. As a matter **[05:37:42.950] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** of fact, Your Honor, if **[05:37:44.110] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I may... **[05:37:44.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Counsel, we can move forward from this. **[05:37:50.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Attorney Sheila, should you need time, if the offer of these two witnesses would be completely... Off the radar screen, should you need time to prepare for a cross, the chair will give you that time, perhaps in the succeeding day, and postpone the cross and proceed to the direct of the other witness, should you need time. But if it is in line with what I surmise would be the purpose why these witnesses are being called, then we proceed with the cross as scheduled. **[05:38:23.060] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Thank you for that, Your Honor. Again, I'm not objecting. **[05:38:26.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, I **[05:38:26.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** know. It was not an objection. **[05:38:27.960] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** I just want to enable the defense to properly prepare for the examination of this witness. **[05:38:32.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** We will afford you that time, counsel. Chair, therefore, orders the Clerk of Court to issue the corresponding subpoenas ad testificandum to Mr. Edward D. Fajarda, Ms. Marisa B. Grande, Police Major Jovelin D. Magay, Attorney Sunshine Chary A. Fajarda, Mr. Bresilo R. Sabaldan. to appear during the trial dates on September 7, 8, and 9. Just to confirm, Attorney Sheila, you are in receipt of a request for stipulation so that you can go over it over the weekend as well and give us your comment and or reaction to the request for stipulation on Monday before we hear the testimony of Ms. Marisa Grande. **[05:39:13.940] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Yes, Your Honor. We confirm receipt of the request for stipulation as well as the manifestation. with the request for issuance of subpoenas duces tecum and, I'm sorry, subpoenas ad testificandum. Your **[05:39:25.330] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Honor, please. **[05:39:26.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Honorable Luistro. **[05:39:28.970] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Concerning, Your Honor, witness Mr. Edward D. Fajarda, **[05:39:33.890] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** we **[05:39:35.010] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** would like to manifest that we completely understand and in fact sympathizes and expresses our concern on his medical condition. It is our intention not to aggravate his condition. As a matter of fact, it is likewise our intention to excuse him, if possible, from the rigors of being presented in the witness stand. However, Your Honor, that is without sacrificing the case of the prosecution. And that is why, Your Honor, we would like to explore the possibility of entering into stipulations and if the defense will agree then there is a possibility as well that the prosecution will move to dispense with the testimony of Mr. Edward Fajarda. That is if the impeachment court will allow. **[05:40:31.540] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Then submit your requested stipulation counsel. What I only have is the requested stipulations in relation to Ms. Grande. **[05:40:39.000] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Your Honor, regarding that matter I would like to request that Attorney Ray Robles be recognized if the impeachment court will allow so that we can resolve today the possibility of dispensing with the testimony of Edward Fajarda. **[05:40:53.270] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor, I will ask that the request for stipulation be made in writing, Your Honor. I was about **[05:41:01.730] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** to say that, counsel. Kindly issue it in writing. **[05:41:08.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Mr. Edward Fajarda is not healthy enough to answer to the subpoena. We will excuse him on Monday and we'll have our doctors check up on him again. We will make sure that he is fit to attend, if at all. However, that does not preclude you from submitting a request for stipulation before the week is over so that we can get the comment of the Council for Respondent on Monday. **[05:41:33.280] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** We submit, Your Honor. **[05:41:34.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you, Council. Chair, finally, would like to say, inform the councils for the parties rather in advance, a possible scheduled date given the budget deliberations and given the manifestation of our majority leader regarding the upcoming budget. Again, as stated by the Chair, this is the single most important piece of legislation that the Senate, sitting as a legislative body, should enact and pass every given year. Under the helm of our Chairman of the Committee of Finance, Senator J.V. So, our possible trial dates which we will finalize by next week would be as follows. So, kindly just note it. **[05:42:15.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Subject to confirmation and finality hopefully by next week. **[05:42:21.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Beginning October, on October 1 and 2, our trial shall be for the entire day from morning until afternoon. We will have no session and even up until early evening if we can still do that. On October 5 to 9, the following week, also the whole day, from 10 a.m. up to early in the evening, even after dinner, as long as we still can, both parties and the senator-judges. And then from October 12 to 15 as well, Monday to Thursday, the whole day as well, until early evening for as long as we still can. And then... We shall be suspending the trial to give way to the committee hearings of the Committee on Finance, which is also part of the break where the Senate usually conducts **[05:43:18.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** its hearings because we have to await approval of the House before they go on break on October 8. We shall resume the trial on November 9 and 16. **[05:43:31.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Both a Monday because for the following two weeks when we resume on November 9, we will be deliberating on the budget on the floor, which usually takes us until the wee hours of the morning. So we will only have two trial dates for the week of November 9 and the week of November 16. We shall proceed to normal programming on November 23 until we finish the case. We shall give you the proper advisory should this be finalized. Yes, Senator-Judge, Chairman of the Committee on Finance, JV Ejercito. **[05:44:05.160] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito** Yes, Mr. Presiding Officer. We discussed this about this schedule earlier because we wanted to get over and done with the impeachment trial as soon as possible but unfortunately, we did some **[05:44:21.880] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito** Checking on the schedules. But we will lose about 12, we will bypass about 12 departments. And the problem, Mr. Presiding Officer, is that, you know, it's either we finish the impeachment or we have a reenacted budget. So I suggest just, if we can have a caucus, and I will, as Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Mr. Presiding Officer, I will still try to... **[05:44:50.380] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito** Have the best solution for both because this is really a different situation that we have. We have the impeachment hearings, we have plenary sessions, and likewise, we have the tedious budget hearings, I'm surprised, Mr. Presiding Officer. So I would suggest that if we can have a caucus, probably on Monday, but we will still try to, or this afternoon, but we will still try to fit in the schedule so that we'll find a way to best. The best solution for both, Mr. President. **[05:45:19.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** We have to do both, Senator-Judge JV. One way or the other. Senator-Judge Zubiri, our Majority Leader. **[05:45:27.990] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Thank you very much, Mr. Presiding Officer. Mr. Presiding Officer, the last few weeks have been very difficult times for us to pass legislation kasi we eat into the time of... Of course, the impeachment trial is in the morning, and then we eat into the time of the legislative agenda of the Senate. At sa totoo lang, Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, pagod na pagod na ako. Twelve hour days po tayo dito. From nine to nine, nandito po tayo. **[05:45:54.020] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** So, we have to, and the budget is coming, and for those who are familiar with the budget, maybe the lawyers are not familiar with the budget here, but the budget takes up About 12 hour, 13, 14 hour days. We start at 9, we end at late in the evening. Whole days yan. And that's usually for 2 weeks. At 2 weeks is cutting it short. Usually up to 18 days yan. That's 3 weeks. So, and those are whole day affairs because we're debating on the budget of each and every department and agency and GOCC in this chamber. **[05:46:31.260] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** So, we really have to meet, Mr. Presiding Officer, on how we can make our time work. **[05:46:37.740] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** So, it's just that we're doing three things at the same time for 24 of us or for a small number of people. So, I hope the members of Congress, I know the members of Congress are insisting that we do this, we keep doing this, but I don't know when are we going to tackle the budget as claimed by our Finance Chair. We may end up with a reenacted budget. We just need to know How we can expedite this? **[05:47:04.030] Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri** Basically, we're not going to go on a break. We have no synergy break for the members of Congress. And if this goes on, we might not have an October break as well, which is okay. We're willing to work naman 24-7 for the people. But the important thing is the budget as well, and legislation. We always meet for Ledoc for priority legislation, Mr. President. There's 40. As of now, we can only tackle one to two a week. because of the debates on the floor. So, I do not know how we're going to do this all until we finish one or the other, Your Honor, Mr. Presiding Officer. Further information of the House panel so that we can expedite these proceedings, Mr. President. **[05:47:46.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Thank you very much, Majority Leader Zubiri, Senator-Judge Zubiri. We confirm. **[05:47:53.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Kasalukuyang tinatalaki ng Kamara de Representantes ang taon ng budget pero yung trabaho yun ginagampana ng mahigit 300 kongresista. 24 lang po kami dito na gumaganap sa parehong trabaho na ginagawa ng Kamara ng ganung kadami. So sana maunawaan po ninyo na kailangan namin bigyan ng panahon ang pinaka-importante panukalang batas na dapat naming aprobahan kada taon. Pero tinitiya ko naman po sa inyo na... Uukulan namin ng sapat at karampatang panahon ng impeachment para sa gayon ay matapos natin ng hindi kailangan patagalin ng matagal pa ng kinakailangan. Gayon din ang budget na tinutulak at sinusulong ng ating Finance Chairman is Senator JV. We assure Senator JV that we will find a happy compromise between these two obligations of the Senate. **[05:48:44.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Again, this is not yet final and we will be announcing the final schedule as soon as we agree on it. However, just a heads up for the counsel for the parties that that time may come for us to have whole day trials so that we can discharge more than one witness, hopefully two or three witnesses per trial date. Kung sino man ang tamaan sa presentation ng witness, prosecution or the respondent. Any other points, counsels? None? **[05:49:10.670] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** Your Honor? **[05:49:11.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Yes, Atty. Sheila? **[05:49:13.110] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** By whole day, you mean, Your Honor, from 8.30 a **[05:49:16.170] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** .m. to 5.00 **[05:49:17.430] Atty. Sheila C. Sison** a.m.? **[05:49:17.610] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** From 10. **[05:49:17.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** From 10, Atty. Sheila, until if we need to finish the witness until a little after dinner, we will pause for lunch, we will pause for dinner, but perhaps on some occasions, we will exceed dinner time. **[05:49:31.570] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Thank you, Your Honor. Your Honor, please. **[05:49:33.670] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** I just **[05:49:35.330] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** want to put on record that the House prosecution panel perfectly understand the predicament of the senator-judges right now, having the regular legislation, the budget hearing, and the impeachment trial happening at the same time. Nevertheless, Your Honor, on the part of the prosecution, we're likewise doing our best to be able to expedite The presentation of our evidence. As a matter of fact, that's the reason behind why we are always exploring the possibility of entering into **[05:50:08.890] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** stipulation. So, **[05:50:10.510] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** just a good news for our senator-judges, we plan to finish the presentation of evidence for confidential fund until September 9, this coming Wednesday. But we hope that the defense will agree into... at least reasonable number of our offer for stipulations, Your Honor. **[05:50:31.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Just out of curiosity, counsel, anong oras ang session sa house? **[05:50:36.690] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** It starts at 3 o'clock in the afternoon, **[05:50:39.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Your Honor. So, when you're here, are you marked present there or are you marked absent? **[05:50:44.570] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** No, no, no, I mean... We suppose that we are marked present because we are also doing our job here **[05:50:50.910] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** in the impeachment trial. Because the Senate is considering that as well, conducting hearings for the Finance Committee while doing our session at the same time and marking those who are present in the committee as present, even if they're not in plenary, as we have done before in the House too, but we haven't done in the Senate. **[05:51:11.900] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** We believe, Your Honor, we're marked present. So in **[05:51:13.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** the house, you're marked present even while you're here? **[05:51:16.000] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** Yes, Your Honor. **[05:51:16.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Not only the panel of prosecutors, but also those who are not part of the panel of prosecutors who are in the gallery. **[05:51:23.640] Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro** including, Your Honor, the spokespersons for the prosecution panel because as far as we are concerned, this is official business of the House of Representatives, Your Honor. **[05:51:33.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero** Good for you. Congratulations. Anyway, there being no other business to be taken up, trial is adjourned until Monday, September 7, 2026 at 10 in the morning.