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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Senate President, the Presiding Officer,

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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: and Senator-Judges of the Impeachment Court.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The Sergeant at Arms is directed to make a proclamation.

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Alfredo Sotto Corpuz: All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the Impeachment Court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator-Judge Francis Kiko Pangilinan.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Sa ngalan ng ating Panginoong Diyos, buong kababaang loob na dasal natin na sa lahat ng araw ng impeachment trial, kaliwanagan ng isip, kaayusan sa proseso at pagiging patas at makatarungan. Bilang mga senator-judges na may pagkakataong magtanong sa mga saksi upang linawin ng mga usaping mahalaga sa paglilitis, naway magsilbing gabay sa atin ang mga salita ng Diyos. Sa Proverbs 24.23-24, pinaalalahanan tayo sa bigat ng ating mga pasya. Hindi mabuti ang may kinikilingan sa paghatol. Ang magsabi sa may sala na walang kasalanan ay susumpain ng mga tao at kamumuhian ng mga bansa.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ganon din sa mga hahatol doon sa walang sala ng parusa. At sa Proverbs 29.4, pinapaalala sa atin ang bunga ng tunay na katarungan, isang bagay na matagal nang minimiti ng ating bayan. Sa pamamagitan ng katarungan, ang isang pinuno ay nagbibigay ng katatagan sa kanyang bansa. patnubayan n'yo po kami, Panginoon, dito sa aming sagradong tungkulin. Amen.

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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: senator-judge, Ontiveros, senator-judge, Lacson, senator-judge, Lapid, senator-judge, Legarda, senator-judge, Marcoleta, senator-judge, Marcos, senator-judge, Padilla, senator-judge, Pangilinan, senator-judge, Sotto III, senator-judge, Tulfo Erwin, senator-judge, Tulfo Raffi, senator-judge, Villanueva, senator-judge, Villar Camil, senator-judge, Villar Marc, senator-judge, Zubiri, the presiding officer, senator-judge, Escudero, Senate President Gachelian.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: With 16 senator-judges present, the chair declares the presence of a quorum. In accordance with the rules of procedure on impeachment trials, the chair now recognizes the duly elected presiding officer to preside over the proceedings of the impeachment court.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: To correct, we have

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 17 senator-judges present.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Mr. Senate President. If there are no objections, we shall dispense with the reading of the journal. of the Senate, sitting as an impeachment court, dated August 4, 2026, and shall consider the same as approved. The Clerk of Court will please call the case before this impeachment court.

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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Case number 004-2026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Appearances?

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Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Same appearance for the prosecution, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the responded?

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Atty. Michael Wesley Poa: Same appearance for the responded accused. Good morning, Your Honors.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before the chair continues, the Clerk of Court through the Osayas directed to kindly situate the witness at the witness stand for the continuation of his testimony, Mr. Wamil.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. Wamil, I would like to remind you that you will be continuing with your testimony under the same oath that was administered to you the other day. Do you understand that, sir?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, sir.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. When we adjourn... The examination of the witness by the counsels for the parties were finished and we will now proceed with the interjections of the senator-judges this morning. And yesterday, we already indicated the sequence of the interjections and questions from the senator-judges. First to make his interjections would be Senator Rafi Tulfo. Sir, you are recognized. You have two minutes and you may proceed when you're ready. Your Honor,

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Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: may

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I be recognized first? Yes, what is the pleasure of the Honorable Chua?

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Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Your Honor, may we request the counsel for the prosecution, Atty. Kapunan, be recognized, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The counsel for the panel of prosecutors, Atty. Lorna Kapunan, the designated handling counsel for this witness, may situate herself also accordingly.

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Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Thank you, Your Honor. Same appearance.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good morning. Good morning, Atty. Lorna, Sen. Tulfo, Rafi, you may proceed sir when you're ready. You have two minutes, sir.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Huwag muna, Mr. President, Officer, point of order lamang muna to.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, what is your point of order, Honorable Tulfo?

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kasi kahapon nabanggit na si Atty. Pua, magaling na abogado siya, ay pumunta sa COA, tama, para makipag-usap tungkol dun sa sinasabing audit query. Now, hindi ko pa conflict of interest yun para siya ay mag-represent dito ngayon sa

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: ano natin, pinag-uusapang confidential funds, when in fact, eh siya mismo pumunta doon sa COA office para makipag-uusap sa kanila. What do you think, Mr. President Officer?

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The respondent in this case, Senator-Judge Tulfo, is the Honorable Vice President, Sara Zimmerman Duterte. Attorney Powa, although he served under the office of the Vice President, I believe, and even under DepEd, is not a named respondent to this case. And in fact, is one of the lawyers, as you can see, of the respondent. I believe there is no conflict with respect to that given that he is not. The one in trial in this case.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, I rest my case, Mr. President Officer. Ngayon, pwede nang... Pwede nang simulan ni Annika. Yung oras. Mr. Witness, bukod sa OVP at saka DepEd, we're talking about confidential funds, meron pa pa ibang ahensya ng pamalaan na inaudit nyo ang kanilang confidential funds?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the GAA po, meron may mga other agencies na may allotment for confidential funds.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kaya nga meron kayo mga na-audit.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: At dito sa mga agency na-audit ninyo, magkapareho ba ang utilization nila ng confidential funds sa OBP under BP-SARA and those agencies na inaudit nyo?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yung utilization naman po ng confidential fund ay separate and distinct for every agency since yung kanilang utilization ay based on their mandate or operations.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Sila ba'y gumamit ng mga aliases, gumamit ng mga pangalan, chichiria, etc.?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yan po ay hindi ko na pwede. Ang alam ko po, hindi ko po mati-determine based on the documents submitted since hindi naman po naka-indicate dun sa kanilang submission na yung mga pangalan na nandun ay aliases or not.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Noong April 2026, nag-issue kayo ng disallowance.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: sa OVP and its officers para at the same time ipinasusuli n'yo yung parte ng confidential funds.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Can you repeat your question, Your Honor?

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: I think that was April of 2025.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Nag-issue kayo nung, pinasusuli n'yo ilang parte ng confidential funds ng OVP.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I do not have personal knowledge na po about yan since wala na po ako sa ICPAO nung February. 12, 2023 po.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Anong reason ba't pinasusuli yung party ng confidential funds na disallowed? What are the reasons?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po akong personal knowledge about dyan since hindi naman po ako yung nag-issue ng disallowance. Nung na-issue po yung disallowance ay na-transfer na po ako to other agency of DICOA.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: I think it was April 10, 2026. So wala na po kayo doon?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sinabi kahapon ni Atty. Poa na binagit niya natin yung circular, co-circular ng 1992, if I'm not mistaken, na hindi dapat banggitin yung pangalan ng mga recipient dahil for reasons of security and national security, security ng tao ng recipients and national security.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: It compromised sa tingin po ninyo yung security ng informant kung hihingan nyo sila ng resibo patungkol sa mga gamot na natanggap nila mula sa confidential funds?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Katulad nga po nung sinabi ko during my testimony, ang hinihingi po namin ay yung purop nung pagbili when it comes to the official receipt and the sales invoice po.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Correct. Alimbaw, resibo, bumili ng maintenance or antibiotics, yung gano'ng klaseng resibo, dapat iba ang hinihingi n'yo.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Pero ang sinasabi nila, eh, yun daw ay magdi-geopardize, magkakaroon ng problema sa national security.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Actually, yung minention po nila na circular, which is yung 1999, is already repealed na. Repealed na. Opo.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Pero just the same. Sa tingin nyo ba, yung pagbibili ng chichiria o dili kayo pagbili ng shampoo o suka sa sari-sari store, would that jeopardize the national security kapag yan ay binulugan sa inyo, binigyan ka ng simo?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Rafi Tulfo. Next to make his interjections would be Senator Bam Aquino. You are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Maraming salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer. Attorney, good morning. Good morning po, Senator. So, ang common understanding po kasi ng confidential funds ay secret, puwedeng gamitin sa kung ano-ano, hindi pwedeng i-bulgar sa publiko. Hindi po totoo, no? Meron po talagang rules and regulations sa paggamit ng confidential funds.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Were you already part of the ICFAO in 2015?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So yung pinakitang memo noong 1992 at itong memo na pinag-usapan natin na circa 2015, parang magkaibang magkaiba siya, no?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Do you know the reason why the rules changed with regard to the usage of confidential funds?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since yung paggamit po noong confidential fund at intelligence fund ay kailangan ng strict accounting and auditing rules. Nagkaroon po ng circular para ma-ensure na yung paggamit po ay properly accounted at hindi po magamit for personal use or misuse.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yan yung laman ng memo. Pero ang tanong ko, do you know why it was changed? Kasi parang lumalabas magkaiba yung paggamit nito if you look at the 1992 circular, iba sa 2015.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Doon po kasi sa yung Circular ng 1999, walang differentiation as to the CIF po. Pero doon sa 2015-01 kasi doon na in-specify na dapat yung Confidential Fund ay gagamitin lang sa ganito for civilian government agencies. Yung Intelligence Fund ay gagamitin lang ng uniform and military personnel as well as yung mga intelligence practitioners.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Kung baga ang dilinaw noong 2015 Circular yung paggamit at pag-liquidate?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: And is there a new circular after 2015 or ito pa rin yung ginagamit ninyo?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yan pa rin po yung ginagamit, Your Honor.

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Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, second question. Anong pinagkaiba ng AR sa OR? Ang OR po kasi,

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: ini-issue po siya nung mga pinagbilan na BIR registered. So, yung AR naman po, yun yung ginagamit ng agency para prove na binigay nila yung payment or payment dun sa tao na naka-receive noong payment.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And it seems na mas katanggap-tanggap sa inyo yung OR kesa AR. Is that correct?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Depende po yan, Your Honor.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kapag purchases po kasi, kailangan po talagang OR yung ibigay sa amin kasi doon po namin tinitignan kung nag-purchase po talaga sila.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Kasi official receipt, acknowledgement receipt, sabihin ng tao, pareho namang resibo, parehong receipt. Ano pinagkaya ba niya?

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yung

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: acknowledgement receipt

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po kasi, ina-acknowledge doon nung recipient ng payment na natanggap niya yung payment. Pero yung OR po kasi, parang yun yung proof na nag-purchase si agency doon sa pinagbila nung item.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Nung item. So pwede mong matrace? Kung OR, pwede nyo matrace?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Kung AR, pwede nyo po ba itong matrace o hindi na?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pag-AR po kasi, kung ano lang po talaga yung nandun sa face nung document, yun lang po yung basis namin since document-based po yung audit namin. Pag-AR po kasi, makikita lang po doon kung saan binili. Okay, yun lang yung information. Tsaka kung sino ang

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: tumanggap?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Opo, yung pinagbilan po.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, dito naman sa tumatanggap, allowed ba yung code names? Allowed ba yung alias sa inyo?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the provision of the joint circular, it is neither allowed nor prohibited po since silent po yung joint circular as to that.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Is that as of 2015 or even in previous liquidation of confidential funds?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on my recollection po, even yung dating circulars po, buwat nung nag-assume po ako sa IGFA, wala naman pong provision as to the use of alias.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So bawal ang

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: paggamit ng alias?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: The circular is silent po.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. Para sa inyo, kung alias... Yung paggamit ng alias ay bawal. So, hindi importante kung may ibang tao ito, totoong tao ba ito. Basta yung pangalan na binigay sa inyo, ang expectation nyo, totoong tao yan. Based on that, kasi

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: ang katulad nga po nung sinabi ko, document-based po kami. So, wala po kaming way to determine if this is an alias or not.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: But in general, ang tinatanggap yung dokumento, dapat totoong tao.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, next. Did you have any, napag-usapan n'yo kahapon yung dealings n'yo with OVP nung lumabas na or malapit nang lumabas yung AOM. Previous to that, meron ka bang dealings with OVP?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala na po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So wala kang, walang kumausap sa inyo, walang nagtanong kung paano to dapat i-liquidate apart from the meeting which included Atty. Powa?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala na po akong maalala, Your Honor. Last

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: question lang, Mr. Presiding Officer. Please wind up.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yung notice, yung AOM, ibig sabihin yan, may chance na pa kayong i-correct, di ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, for Your Honor.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Pag notice of disallowance na, may chance pa ba yung i-correct o naniningil na?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Actually, the moment that we issue notice of disallowance, nirequire na po yung accountable officers to restitute po yung amount involved. And

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: to

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: your

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: knowledge, is there a notice of disallowance for the OVP and DepEd funds?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pong personal knowledge.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: pero nakita ko po sa news po, so I was made aware na may ending na po yung OVP 2022.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So may notice of disallowance na ang OVP for the 500 million pesos?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: For 125 million pesos po for the fourth quarter of 2022.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So sinisingil na yan kay Vice President Duterte?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Thank you, Mr. President.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Aquino. Next to make his interjections is Senator-Judge Pangalinan, your recognizer. You may proceed when you're ready. Thank you, Mr.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: President. Mr. Presiding Officer, magandang umaga, Mr. Witness, ginong mawil.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Marami na po. Sa NDAs po, parang nasa 30 plus na po yung na-audit ko. And sa LDOs, marami na rin po. Hindi ko na po mabilang kung ilang agencies

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: na po yung na-audit ko.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, more than 30?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. Sa mga ahensya na ito, tatlong pong ahensya, masasabi mo ba na nire-require din yung liquidation ng official receipts at ng sales invoice?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor, kasi yung requirement po ng circular ay in-enforce po namin sa lahat ng agencies na inaudit po namin.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So sa 2022, from December 21 to December 31, ilang sales invoice o kaya official receipt ang kasama dun sa mga liquidation report?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po sinabit sa amin, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: 849 acknowledgement receipts, tama?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor. Since ina-apply naman po namin uniformly yung provisions po noong Joint Circular 2015-01.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: As in, puro AR ang sinasubmit ng ibang ahensya?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: May mga agencies po na nagsasubmit naman ng OR po.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So sa experience mo dun sa December 21 to 31, masasabi mo bang standard practice yan ng iba pang mga ahensyang iyong na audit?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ko po siyang masasabing standard practice since ito po yung kauna-unang beses na puro AR po yung sinamit sa amin.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So first time sa iyong... 10 years na puro AR lang at walang sales invoice at walang official receipt.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Opo, ganun.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po kadaming AR kaagad yung sinabi.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At 125 million na walang sales invoice at walang official receipt.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Doon naman sa usapin ng kung walang sales invoice at walang official receipt, masasabi mo ba na halimbawa yung sa medicines, talagang medicines ang ginasta?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kung sinabit po sana sa amin yung official receipt po or sales invoice, masasabi po sana namin. Pero since AR lang po ay sinabmit, hindi po namin masasabi. Based

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: on that documentary. Kasi sinasabi nilang, total naman, just to wrap up, gamot naman yan eh. Diba? Mabuti nga bumibili ng gamot. Masasabi mo ba dun sa liquidation report nila na yung 122 million worth of medicines, eh talagang medicines ang binili?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. No further questions, Mr. President.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Pangalina. Next, for his interjections, will be Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo. You are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. You know, Testigo, tama po ba ang pagkarinig ko na sinabi nyo kanina under sa COA DBM Joint Circular Number 2015-01? Hindi naman kailangan ilagay ang tunay na mga pangalan ng mga intel agents or informers na tumanggap ng intel or confidential funds sa OVP tulad ni Mary Grace Piatos, Chipie McDonald, Mickey Mouse, at iba pa. Is this correct?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang sinabi ko po, Your Honor, ay silent po yung circular as to that matter po.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Silent. So po pwede? When we say kasi silent, pwede?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor. It is neither allowed nor prohibited po.

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Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, if this is not allowed or prohibited, I mean, bakit nang i-audit po ninyo ang Confidential Intelligence Fund po ng OVP, hindi ba ninyo, hindi ninyo hiningi ang tunay ng mga pagkakilanlan? Hindi na Piatos, McDonald's, Mickey Mouse at iba pa? Katulad

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: nga po nung sinabi ko sa aking previous testimony, ang focus po ng audit namin ay compliance audit. So kung ano po yung provision ng circular, yun po yung ginagawa naming basis for our audit po. Okay, compliance. When

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: you say compliance, ito po ba yung periodic or random?

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Yung

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: compliance audit po kasi wala po siyang particular period. Kasi pag sinabing compliance audit, inevaluate po namin yung subject matter if it is compliant with certain applicable laws, rules, and regulations. No. But

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: I'm saying, every agency na meron pong intel or confidential funds, do they have to undergo audit periodically or random lang? Dahil marami po tayong ahensya ng gobyerno na may mga intelligence confidential fund na hindi naman dapat.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang audit po namin ay based dun sa liquidation documents po na sinasubmit nila.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Oo, pero is it periodic ba? Kailangan bawat agency na i-liquidate niya, i-audit ninyo yung kanyang paggastos ng intel or confidential fund?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So it's periodic, it's not random?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Okay.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kung kaduda-duda na po ang disbursement ng OVP, obvious naman, sabi nyo po, di po ba, mga medicines, mga pangalan ng tao, bakit hindi po ninyo pa sinampahan ng kaso sa Ombudsman ng OVP?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Well, under our rules, Your Honor, pwede lang namin siyang i-refer to the office of the Ombudsman kapag nagkaroon ng final order at hindi po kinumply ni OVP yung Order po.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Bakit? Nasaan na

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: po ba yung order ngayon? Ano na po ang status? Itong mga findings n'yo, 2023, 2024 pa ito, 2026 na po tayo ngayon.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po akong personal knowledge about sa status po nung, since hindi na po ako connected sa IGPOW.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Okay, so hindi, dahil hindi ka na connected sa IGPOW, so wala ka ng pakialam kung ano na nangyari sa kaso na hinawakan mo?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: naman po sa wala akong pakialam, pero yung mga ganyang bagay po kasi ay confidential na hindi naman ina-announce sa buong COA po.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Ayun. So, ibig sabihin, hindi mo na alam kung, at hindi mo rin alam kung bakit hindi kinasuhan or nirefer sa ombudsman itong issue na ito?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you very much. Thank

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Sen. Erwin Tulfo: you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo. Next would be our distinguished Senate President, Senator Gadshalyan. You are recognized, sir. You may proceed. When you're ready, you have two minutes. Thank

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Mr. Witness, nakita ko dito merong anim na AOMs na in-issue and meron dito sa anim non-submission of documentary evidence of payment. Ito ba ay Na-fulfill ba ito after nag-issue kayo ng AOM?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on sa mga na-issue ko po, since ang na-issue ko lang po na AOMs ay for the 4th quarter of 2022, 1st to 2nd quarter of 2022 of the OBP, and 1st to 2nd quarter 2022 of the OBP, ang nabutan ko lang po na may response na may kasamang documentary evidence of payments ay yung 4th quarter of 2022 po ng OBP.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: fourth quarter of 2022.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: At ano, yun, diba kasi pag nag-issue ko ng AOM, ang sagot normally is compliance, diba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, for Your Honor.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yung na-compliance fourth quarter of 2022 for this particular item in non-submission of DEP, Documentary Evidence of Payment.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, for Your Honor. Based on my personal knowledge, kasi

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yan lang po

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yung naabutan. Ano

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: yung kanilang SIMNAMIT para... ma-fulfill itong non-submission of DEP.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Nagsubmit po sila ng acknowledgement receipts po, Your

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Honor.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ito yung mga acknowledgement receipts na pinakita ng counsel for the prosecution.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Noong sinabit sa inyo itong mga acknowledgement receipts, May mga pangalan nga na sabi ng ating mga senador. Vinalidate nyo ba kung itong mga pangalan na ito ay totoo o hindi?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor, kasi hindi po yan yung focus po ng audit namin.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Sige, go ahead. Since what we do po

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: is compliance audit. So ang naging focus po namin ay yung expenses po na based on the face of the acknowledgement receipts as well as yung date kung kailan binayad as well as yung amount po. Since vinalidate po namin siya based on the requirements of the Joint Circular 2015-01.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Bina-validate niyo ba kung yung pangalan ay totoong tao o hindi?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi na po kasi hindi po yun yung focus ng audit po namin, Your Honor.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Nasabi mo rin kanina sa sagot mo na neither allowed or disallowed. Tama? Neither allowed nor

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: prohibited po.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Nor prohibited ang paggamit ng alias.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po,

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Your Honor. Sa ibang mga agencies na enforcement agencies, ibang government agencies na gumagamit ng alias, pinapayagan ba o hindi?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi naman po namin ma-determine based on the documents alone kung alias or not kasi wala naman po silang ina-attach na document na nagkasabing alias po yung nakalagay dun sa kanilang resibo.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Meron bang mga agencies na gumagamit ng alias?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Katulad po nang nasabi ko, Your Honor, hindi po namin ma-determine based on the document alone kung alias ba yun or not.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Lalo na sa mga informant agencies yung gumagamit ng intelligence funds. I would assume na may mga cases na gumagamit sila ng aliases dahil nga mga informants. Meron ka bang ganyan na experience na sinabi sa inyo ng agencies na hindi nila ma-reveal yung totoong pangalan? Dahil hindi naman prohibited, di ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pa naman po experience, Your Honor.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So lahat ng mga ARs na meron ganitong source of information. Totoong pangalan ang sinasabit nila?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi. Katulad po nung nasabi ko, wala po kaming way to determine since nakabase lang po kami on the face of the document as submitted po.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. Yung mga sa ibang mga agencies na nagsasubmit ng mga ganitong rewards, nagbibigay ng information ng rewards. Nakita ko dito merong rewards for medicine, rewards for virus supplies. Ano siya? Cash? or medicine or in-kind ang ibinibigay?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on those documents po, since nakalagay close and open parenthesis medicine, so medicine po yung binigay. Yung isa po, payment of rewards, close and open parenthesis various goods, so various goods po yung binigay, Your Honor.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So ang ibig sabihin, may reward sila, hindi cash ang binigay, medicines at various supplies?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the acknowledgement receipts po, yes, Your Honor. And

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: that is allowed?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang joint circular naman po, wala naman po siyang nakaspecify kung paano nila babayaran yung rewards. As long as yung requirements po nung circular ay fulfilled po.

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Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Mr. Senate President. Next, for its interjections, will be Senator-Judge Joel Villanueva. You are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you, Mr. President.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Sir, with us, are you aware of ESI 100?

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: It's international standards of supreme audit institutions. I

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: am aware po, PCI, pero yung specific po naman na rin, hindi ko po ma-recall, Your Honor.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Member po yung Pilipinas at they pound on the word professional skepticism that requires an auditor to question records submitted but also to fairly consider yung agency's explanations and contrary evidence. Is that

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: correct?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Para lang humaintindihan natin, actual n'yo po bang sinuri ang mga transaction? Ibig sabihin, isa-isa po ba itong iniexamine lahat? Gumagamit ba kayo ng sampling, piling transaction, o yung sinusuri? Gumagamit ba kayo ng materiality threshold sa pagpili at evaluation nito?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor. Lahat po ng documents ay inievaluate po namin.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: So, lahat, meaning, gusto kong maintindihan, dinutugma n'yo po ba yung bawat transaction? From original receipts, accomplishment reports, at iba pa?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: And how do you, hindi ko maintindihan, you know, when you're purchasing an information, paano kong bibigyan ng official receipt?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your Honor, kapag, katulad nga po nung sinabi ko kanina, kailangan ng official receipts kapag binili po mismo from the supplier. So, ibig sabihin sa supplier lang. Sa tao, hindi kailangan ng resibo. Yes, Your Honor. Malinaw po yun. Pag sinabi pong resibo, OR po. Pero pag purchase of information, inalaw po namin yung acknowledgement receipt.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: So, you allow acknowledgement receipt. Dahil information yung binili, wala namang industriya na nagbibigay ng resibo for information that they're selling.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Sa madaling salita po, yung findings po ba ninyo ay batay? lamang sa deficiencies in the documents submitted o nakukumpirman nyo rin po sa pamamagitan po ng inyong independent verification?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang audit po kasi namin ay document-based. So kung ano po yung nilalaman ng documents vis-a-vis yung provisions ng Joint Circular, yun po yung nagiging basis for our findings po. So hanggang dun lang sa

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: dokumento na ibinigay, wala na po kayong ibang ginagawa? to go out of your way and do your independent findings.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ngayon po, Mr. Wamel, Atty. Wamel, para malinaw po sa atin, kayo po ba mismo ang nag-audit nitong bawat transaksyon at naghanda ng initial findings o mayroon po kayong team?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ako lang po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: At kayo lang po ang nag-review nito bago maging final report?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po. Mayroon

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po akong divisionship. Siya po yung nag-review, Your Honor.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: At dun po sa proseso

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: n'yon, ano-ano yung material findings, recommendations and conclusions na maaaring idinadagdag o inaalis o binabago ng inyong ino-audit? At bakit po?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Actually, yung laman po nung na-issue ng AOM, kinumpare ko po yun sa aking draft at pares naman po. Sorry, sorry. Pakiulit po. Yung in-issue po namin na AOM po kasi, kinumpare ko po yun sa aking draft at pares naman po yung substance nung AOM.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Mr. Ramil, from AOM to notice of discrepancy, suspension, I mean, and then notice of disallowance.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor. Ano po yung mga nabago dun? Kapag AOM po kasi, parang nirequire po namin, based on the joint circular.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Sir, ang question ko po, ano po yung nabago? Ibig sabihin, from AOM,

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes,

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Honor.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Actually, ang na-issue ko lang po ay

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: hanggang notice of suspension pero discuss ko na lang po din yung contents nung notice of suspension. Sige po,

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: from AOM to notice of suspension.

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: I'm winding up, Mr. President. It's the same question that I'm asking because we don't want to talk about the notice of disallowance from AOM to notice of suspension. Okay, Your Honor.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since noong nag-issue po kami ng AOM, wala pa silang documentary evidence of payments. So, sinabit lang po nila yung documentary evidence of payments sa ICPAO upon receipt na nila noong kanilang AOM. And then, doon po sa aming notice of suspension, upon evaluation of their responses doon sa aming AOM, at kasama na rin po doon yung documentary evidence of payments. So, doon na

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po namin nakita yung mga payment of rewards na cash, medicines, and various goods. Tapos, nakita po din po namin yung mga purchases nila na walang official receipts or sales invoice na supporting document. And then,

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yung mga Date po nung payment nung kanilang acknowledgement receipts ay naka-date po ng December 2023 at yung iba po ay walang date.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: And then, Your Honor, may I be allowed po to refer to the NS for the... Thank

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: you,

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: Mr. Presiding Officer. This is very important because it shows that the agency were given chances, three stages para mag-submit. ng hinihingi po ng ating COA.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly wind up, Senator-Judge. Yes,

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: this is the last question, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yun po, Your Honor. Doon po sa NS po namin, nagkaroon din po kami ng findings na mas malaki yung amount nung kanilang expenditure based on the acknowledgement receipts compared to the accomplishment report ng 150... Which

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: was not present in the AOM.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes,

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Sen. Joel Villanueva: po, Your Honor. Thank you. Salamat po, Mr. President.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Villanueva. Senator-Judge Riza Antiveros is recognized. You may proceed, ma'am. When you're ready, you have two minutes.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Mr. Witness, para klaro po sa mga nanonood, kapag pinag-uusapan po yung confidential and intelligence funds, chinecheck pa rin po ng COA kung paano ginastos yung pera. Tama po ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. So, ibig sabihin, kahit confidential ang tawag sa confidential funds, kailangan busisiin pa rin yung pinagkagastusan, tama po?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po, Your Honor. Kasi public funds po siya.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Kasi public funds. Okay. Ngayon, iyong mga resibo na hinihingi nyo sa COA, again, para sa mga nanonood, para saan ba talaga yung mga resibong iyan?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kailangan po kasi naming malaman kung talagang bumili po sila, nung kanilang mga binili, Your Honor.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. Kailangan malaman n'yo kung talagang binili.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Yung sinabing ibinili.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: At doon lang po namin makikita yun sa official receipt or sales invoice po.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. OR o kaya sales invoice. At hindi lamang sa mga AR.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor. Unless

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: nga para doon sa pagbili o magpagbayad ng information.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Importante talaga na makapagsumite ng mga dokumento at resibo ng mga diumanong pinagkagastusan.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor. Okay.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Sa kaso po ba ng OVP at ng DepEd, nakapagbigay po ba sila ng mga kumpletong dokumento at resibo na hinihingi ng COA?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Tanging period lang po sa pagkakalap ko na mayroong documentary evidence of payments based on may stay sa ICFAO o yung fourth quarter of 2022. At based po dun sa kanilang documentary evidence of payments for that period, wala po silang sinamit na official receipt or sales invoice. Tanging mga acknowledgement receipts lang po.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. So yung mga supporting documents na required, hindi ko po pwedeng tanuyin kung kaagad nilang naibigay dahil hindi po naibigay yung ibang supporting documents.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Niisa po within any time period after na dapat nilang sumitihin yan?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. So, hindi ko rin kailangan tanuin kung kumpleto ba ang ibinigay dahil hindi ba kumpleto ang ibinigay nilang mga dokumento at resibo?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pwedeng paulit po ng tanong.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Kumpleto ba o hindi kumpleto yung ibinigay nilang mga dokumento at resibo?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po kumpleto, Your Honor. Hindi kumpleto.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Now, According to the Joint Circular, kailangan ng evidence of success for rewards payouts. So, itong tinatawag na evidence of success for rewards payments, naibigay po ba ito ng OVP?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Naibigay po ba ito ng DepEd?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Katulad nga po nang sinabi ko, yung sa OVP lang po yung may DEPs na nabutan ko.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Pero hindi po naibigay ng... OVP yung evidence of success for reward payments. Pero

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: i-clarify ko lang din po, since ako po yung nag-initially evaluate noong first and second quarter ng DepEd, based po dun sa aking mga na-evaluate na documents, wala din po silang sinamit na documentary evidence of payment. Documentary evidence na of success of the surveillance activities or information-gathering activities po.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At sa simpleng salita, Bakit importante itong evidence of success sa rewards payments?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Diyan po kasi malalaman kung valid ba yung naging payment nila ng rewards po.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So kasi dito sa acknowledgement receipt, makikita natin marami-rami po ito. Nakalagay, nakapag-claim sila ng rewards. So huling tanong ko sa inyo, Mr. Witness, sa round na ito, ibig sabihin sa itong evidence of success for rewards payments, patunay na Meron tayong napala. Merong napala ang gobyerno sa mga operasyong iyan.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor. Kaya po namin nilirequire na isubmit po yan. Alright.

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Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat, Mr. Witness. Salamat po, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Judge Hontiveros. Before recognizing the Honorable Padilla, Chair, yes, Senator Lacson, after Senator Sotto, I believe. Chair would like to inform the councils for the parties that you may take your seat. unless you are, unless a question is thrown at you by a senator-judge that you can relax. It goes for both parties. Thank you, Your Honor.

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Unknown speaker: Thank you, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Next, Interpolate, Senator-Judge Padilla. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes. Marami salamat po,

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ginong tagapamahal ng hukom. Meron lang po ako mga tanglong. May silang po ito. Saan po kayo pinanganak?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa Nueva Ecija po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Nueva Ecija. Saan po kayo nakatira ngayon?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa Manila po.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Manila. Saan po kayo nag-aaral?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Central Luzon State University po, noong accountancy, and then, Paliliano po, University ng Juris

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Doctor po. Ah,

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: okay.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Saan po kayo nakaikot na sa bansa natin? Nakaikot na po ba kayo ng Mindanao, sa Bicol?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Um, marami na po akong naikotan, hindi ko na po maalala lahat, Sir. Ah, po.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kayo po'y ba yung nakarating na sa BARM?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Saan po sa BARM?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa Sulu?

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: sa Basilan,

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maguindanao.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Hindi po matandaan? Mauubos po yung oras ko.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: matandaan, Your Honor, kung saan. Bicol po. Nakaikot na po kayo sa Bicol?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Saan po sa Bicol?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa Camarines Norte? Sa Camarines Sur po.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sur. Sa Norte hindi pa po?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ko po maalala kung...

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Nakaikot na po kayo sa mga bundok?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Saan po, Your Honor?

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Mga bundok?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Nakita nyo na po ba ang pangangailangan ng mga tao sa malayong lugar, katulad ng gamot? katulad po ng pagkain.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Wala naman ba akong na-observe, Your Honor?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ayun, wala. Hindi po kayo exposed.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Exposed po ba kayo sa threat ng terrorism sa bansa natin? Nabalitaan nyo po ba ang ISIS, ang NPA, ang Abu Sayyaf?

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Exposed po ba kayo doon sa mga balita? Sa news po. May mga nabalitaan po ako,

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Honor.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Alam nyo po ba kung gaano nakagrabe ang terrorism?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po akong threshold, Your Honor, to determine that.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ah, wala po. Pero kayo po ang humahawak. ng investigation patungkol sa Confidential Fund. Tama po ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po siya investigation. Evaluation po.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Evaluation. Ako, tama-tama. Ibig po sabihin, kahapon po, sinabi ninyo na gumawa lang kayo ng preliminary investigation. Tama po ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Preliminary inquiry. Amin, hindi po. Part po siya ng process namin na mag-issue po kami ng AOM.

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: So, ibig po sabihin, kahapon kasi narinig ko parang yung ginawa nyo, preliminary lang.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yung AOM po, preliminary lang. Opo, hindi po yung conclusion.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kung ang tinutukoy n'yo po ay yung... Meron po kasing provision as to the joint circular as to tinatawag na prima facie... Pakisagot

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: na lang po kung conclusion ba po yun? Final? Final?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po kasi we require them... So hindi

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po final? Based on the AOM po... Kunti lang po oras ko, hindi

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: final?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: AOM po, yung AOM po hindi po final? Hindi po final, opo. Kayo po ba'y naniniwala na ang mga confidential agent ay dapat magpakilala? Sabihin ng kanilang mga totoong pangalan? Ang wala bang provision as to that po sa

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Joint Circular, Your Honor?

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kayo po mismo, palagay nyo po sa personal po ninyong pagkakaintindi, ang mga confidential agent, dapat po bang magpakilala?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since that calls for an opinion, hindi po ako authorized to express that, Your Honor. Ano pong depenisyon niya ng confidential? Based on the Joint Circular

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po, ang confidential expenses ay yung...

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Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Hindi po expenses, confidential lang po. Bilang kayo po ay abogado, ano pong pagkakaintindi nyo sa confidential?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I'm classified, po, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. Boss, sa next na lang po akong round.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Valdila.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may avail of the second round. Next would be Senator Judge Marcos. You are recognized, ma'am. You may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Thank you very much, Presiding Judge.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Okay, kanina sinabi mo na hindi ka umabot doon sa notice of disallowance, pero ando mo pa rin sa ikbaw noong na-release yung notice of suspension, diba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Okay, so doon sa notice of suspension, katulad ng disallowance, nasabi mo kahit wala ka na roon, you were made aware kasi nabalitaan mo.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Pinagbawal ba ng COA yung mga confidential expenses dahil peke o fictitious, gawa-gawa lang yung mga AR?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Anong po ang notice yung tinutukoy niya po, Your Honor?

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Doon sa mga AR ng OVP, meron bang sinabi na gawa-gawa lang, hindi tunay, peke?

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Sen. Imee Marcos: So ang sagot, no. Walang sinasabi na fictitious yung AR. At doon sa AOM, pati sa suspension, ganoon na rin sa ND. Sinabi ba ng COA na yung AR and Documentary Evidence of Payments, yung debt, e peke, pasipikado, huwad?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since hindi po yan yung focus ng audit po namin, wala po kaming findings about that, Your Honor.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Sinabi ba doon na falsificado yung left at saka yung AR? Na it was forged, kumbaga?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pong ganong findings, Your Honor.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Wala rin, diba? At doon sa mga pangalan ng mga... recipient ng award. Tama ba ako sa pagkaintindi na hindi rin sinita ng COA yung mga kakaibang pangalan tulad ng Mary Grace Piatos, Andy Lim, etc. Ang sinabi at binanggit talaga ng COA ay yung mga datos na hindi tumutugma. Tama ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since what with this compliance audit po, at wala namang provision yung circular as to the use of ILSS, yes po, wala pa kaming findings.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Kasi sabi mo nga, neither allowed nor prohibited. Tama po. So, doon sa AOM at sa notice of suspension, the names of these reward recipients was never raised by COA, di ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Tama. Dahil nangyayari talaga nakakaibang pangalan ang binibigay kapag confidential or intelligence fund. Kaya isa pang tanong ko, dun sa notice of suspension, pati na rin sa ND, ang pagkaintindi natin, final ba ito o hindi?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kapag sinabi po kasing notice of disallowance under the joint circular, meron na pong obligation to restitute agad.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Tama. Final siya sa COA. Pero kahit ang disisyon ng COA, pwedeng dalhin sa Supreme Court para maging pinal na pinal. Hindi po ba?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I-clarify ko lang po. Kapag dumating na po kasi sa Supreme Court, ang tanging ground na lang po dyan ay grave abuse of discretion, amounting to lack or excess of jurisdiction. So wala na pong kinalaman po ay factual matters.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Ganun nga. Talaga naman na matters of fact, hindi naman rin na-raise sa Supreme Court. Tama ka dun. Pero hindi pinal. Pwedeng dalhin sa Korte Suprema.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: At no point are these final.

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I-clarify ko lang po ano. Yung decision po ng COA to restitute ay hindi po apektado noong pag-file sa Supreme Court. So, kahit mag-file po sila ng Petition for Surgery sa Supreme Court, kailangan na po nilang ibalik agad. Kasi yung pendency po ng Petition for Surgery, hindi po niya na-stay yung obligation

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Sen. Imee Marcos: to restitution. Naintindihan natin yun. Pero hindi pa tapos ang kaso. Pwede pang dalhin sa Korte Suprema, hindi po ba? At saka doon sa Notice of Suspension, balikan ko lang. Was there a finding na ginamit sa pansarili yung mga confidential funds ng OVP?

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: That is a presumption po.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Misappropriated by law.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly wrap up. That is a presumption

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Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po. Hindi po kailangan directly sabihin kasi nagkaroon po ng presumption.

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Sen. Imee Marcos: Pero hindi sinabi. Sa madaling sabi, wala talagang sinabi.

402
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Sen. Imee Marcos: Pero dahil presumption po

403
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:52,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: siya, hindi po siya kailangan sabihin, Your Honor.

404
00:53:52,620 --> 00:54:06,060
Sen. Imee Marcos: Naintindihan ko, pero wala doon. Is there a co-finding na ninakaw? ang confidential funds doon sa various AOMs and notice. Meron bang sinasabi doon na ninakaw? It was stolen?

405
00:54:06,420 --> 00:54:12,100
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: There is a prima facie evidence na nagamit po siya for personal use or benefit under the Joint Circular.

406
00:54:12,300 --> 00:54:12,840
Sen. Imee Marcos: Kaya nga.

407
00:54:12,980 --> 00:54:14,640
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly wrap up, Senator-Judge Marcos.

408
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:15,260
Sen. Imee Marcos: Yes, I am

409
00:54:15,260 --> 00:54:18,060
Sen. Imee Marcos: done but I have questions kung may second round.

410
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:21,880
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: There will be a sound to it and I will register you, Senator-Judge Marcos.

411
00:54:23,500 --> 00:54:30,680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Senator-Judge Ejercito is recognized. You may proceed, sir. And when you're

412
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:33,300
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ready and you have two minutes.

413
00:54:35,550 --> 00:55:06,780
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Yes, thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Siguro dagdag ako na lang din nun. Ito tayo tinatanong na rin yung tungkol doon sa mga paggamit ng mga alias sa ating mga senator-judges. Dahil alam naman natin na kinakailangan din na... Legitimo nga, may pangangailan na protektahan, no? Dahil nga confidential itong mga information. Ang, sa ilalim ng Joint Circular Number 2015-0, paano dapat maprotektahan ang pagkakakilanla ng mga confidential informant?

414
00:55:07,830 --> 00:55:19,680
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pong provision as to that, Your Honor. Kasi yung, wala pong namang requirement yung circular as to the, pwede pa ulit po ng tanong, sorry.

415
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:55,910
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Well, yung ano, hindi, kasi parang alam naman natin, lalo na sa mga intelligence, tsaka yung mga activities, mga confi, ginagamit yung mga Ilias, nabanggit nyo rin kanina. Hindi ba pwedeng gamitin na lang, halimbawa, John Dos, Jane Dos, o Juan de la Cruz, kasi alam naman natin na, ano to eh, binambibilit, binamba-reward for information na, syempre, Pinoproteksyon na din natin yung mga, pinoproteksyon ng mga agencies, yung identity ng mga informants.

416
00:55:56,860 --> 00:56:04,460
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang masasabi ko lang po, Your Honor, wala naman pong provision as to the joint circular sa use ng LSS kasi silent po yung joint circular.

417
00:56:05,430 --> 00:56:16,100
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: So tanggap yun? Halimbawa nakita niyong medyo parang... kahit iyong mga pangalan eh mukhang alias lang ay tinatanggap dahil pang intelligence gathering.

418
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:25,800
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: We based lang po dun sa document submitted to us. So kung wala pong naka-indicate dun sa document submitted to us na alias po yun, hindi po namin manalaman, Your Honor.

419
00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:34,980
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Tapos meron din ano no, dapat may coordination paggamit ng intelligence or confidential, may coordination with law enforcement agencies, tama po ba?

420
00:56:35,020 --> 00:56:36,780
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, based on the Joint Circular, Your Honor.

421
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:57,580
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: So dun po, tanong ko lang po, meron po bang O may nakita po ba kayong naganap na coordination with the agencies, no? Of course, yung PNP, PFP, PIDEA, at iba pa, NBI, na ginawa ang, halimbawa, OVP, in this case, sa kanilang paggamit ng confidential funds para sa sinasabi nilang confidential programs.

422
00:56:57,940 --> 00:57:00,800
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the documents submitted po sa ICPAO, wala po, Your Honor.

423
00:57:02,890 --> 00:57:13,030
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Dahil sinasabi ng Joint Circular, kung di ako nagkakamil, na kailangan may proper coordination ang paggamit ng confidential funds with these law enforcement agencies.

424
00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:15,150
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, based on the Joint Circular, Your Honor.

425
00:57:15,150 --> 00:57:29,770
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Isa ba ito sa mga findings na nagkawa sa IOM o sa audit observation memo or notice suspension or notice of disallowance na inilabas laban sa OVP, yung walang coordination?

426
00:57:32,110 --> 00:57:34,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po kaming naging findings about d'yan, Your

427
00:57:34,050 --> 00:57:34,170
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Honor.

428
00:57:36,410 --> 00:57:39,250
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Last time, Sir Signing Officer,

429
00:57:39,810 --> 00:58:02,170
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: doon sa course ng iyong audit ha, Mr. Attorney Juan Milo, did you see any evidence o may ebidensya ba kayo na si Vice President personally ang tumanggap, ang nakakuha o nagbenefisyo doon sa Confidential Intelligence Fund?

430
00:58:03,250 --> 00:58:07,090
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the documents po, wala po, Your Honor. Wala pong personal knowledge about it.

431
00:58:11,860 --> 00:58:33,620
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: So, para sa record, for the record, just last point, Mr. President, sa pagkakalon o kawalan ng ebidensyang may pakita ng personal na pagtamanggap na kinabang ba ang isang opisyal ng pamalan sa pondong bayan ay sapat na? O upang matukoy kung may umiira na pananagutang administratibo, sibil, o kriminal?

432
00:58:34,710 --> 00:58:50,470
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Under the Joint Circular po kasi since si head of the agency po yung may responsibility to oversee kung paano gamitin yung confidential fund and to ensure yung compliance nila dun sa Joint Circular, then accountable person din po si head of the agency, Your Honor.

433
00:58:50,870 --> 00:59:23,470
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: So last question. Upang maging malinaw ang inyong testimonya nang sabihin ninyong wala kayong nakitang ebidensya na ang pangalawang Pangulo mismo ang tumanggap, nagpanatili o nakinabang Sa confidential test, inilahad lamang ba ninyo ang inyong audit findings o at hindi kayo nagbibigay ng legal na conclusion hinggil sa pagkakaroon ng kawalan ng pananagutan? Is it based on your audit findings or ano lang, legal conclusion hinggil sa pagkakaroon ng liability?

434
00:59:23,870 --> 00:59:30,590
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based po sa audit findings, Your Honor. Kasi nilalagay po namin yung persons accountable dun sa aming ini-issue po.

435
00:59:31,570 --> 00:59:33,030
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Okay, thank you Mr. Presiding Officer.

436
00:59:34,530 --> 00:59:57,060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge JV. Before recognizing Senator-Judge Sotto, Atty. Wamil, just on the point of Senator-Judge Marcos, to clarify, the decision of COA with respect to any appeal is final, is executory, but not final even if it is appealed before the Supreme Court, correct?

437
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:00,400
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: With respect to the obligation to restitute, po. Atty.

438
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:13,320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Wamil, listen to the question, please. It is, unless a TRO is issued by the Supreme Court, it is executory but the decision is not yet final. Would that be correct?

439
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:16,260
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yung decision po, final na, Your Honor.

440
01:00:16,420 --> 01:00:30,310
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Inappeal nga sa Supreme Court. Paano magiging final? Ikaw naman. A decision of the COA, appeared to the Supreme Court, is executory unless a TRO is issued but is not yet final. Yes,

441
01:00:30,310 --> 01:00:30,470
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po,

442
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:38,910
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor. That is a correct statement. Opo. Thank you. Senator-Judge Sotto, you are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes.

443
01:00:43,310 --> 01:00:47,290
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Thank you, Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. Witness.

444
01:00:49,350 --> 01:01:10,910
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: In your testimony, August 3, upon direct examination by the Prosecution Council, you were presented representative samples of selected forms The questioned 845 acknowledged receipts. If I remember it right, correct pa yun? Yes,

445
01:01:10,910 --> 01:01:11,290
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your Honor.

446
01:01:12,970 --> 01:01:39,920
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Sinabi nyo na kayo ay gumawa ng observations doon sa mga acknowledgement receipts neto kung saan ilan dito ay pinagagamitan ng confidential funds ay hindi naaayon sa Joint Circular 2015-01. ngunit may mga acknowledgement receipts, according to how I recall it, na meron, wala namang kayong observation. Observations, ano?

447
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:40,520
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes,

448
01:01:40,580 --> 01:01:46,200
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: po. Sapagkat ang pinaggamitang ng pondo ay naayon sa nasabing circular. Tama ba?

449
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:47,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po, Your Honor.

450
01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:59,300
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Alright. Halimbawa, yung acknowledgement receipt ni Mary Grace Enchimada, I mean, Mary Grace Piatos, na 70,000 for medicine, walang support na, walang support ng documents.

451
01:02:01,070 --> 01:02:15,610
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Kaya gumawa kayo ng observations. Yes, Your Honor. Tapos yung doon naman kay acknowledgement receipt ni Janice Marie Trevilla, P70,000, at Pati Ting na P150,000. Wala kayong observations.

452
01:02:17,130 --> 01:02:46,720
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Dahil ang pondo ay ginamit sa purchase of information na pinayagan o allowed ng nasabing circular. Tama ba? Yes, Your Honor. That's the way I recall it. Alright. Okay. Now. Ito ngayon ang tanong ko. Out of these 845 acknowledgement receipts na pinag-uusapan sa kasok ito, ilan ang naggawa n'yo ng observations dahilan sa kawalan ng supporting documents?

453
01:02:47,340 --> 01:02:52,020
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ko na po matiya kung ilan yung exact number po, Your Honor.

454
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:58,920
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Eh ilan nang, well then, my next question will not be answered because ang tatanong ko, ilan yung malang observations?

455
01:03:03,010 --> 01:03:06,410
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pwede po ako mag-refer sa tabulation po, Your

456
01:03:06,410 --> 01:03:06,650
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Honor.

457
01:03:06,650 --> 01:03:30,830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You can refer to your tabulation table that was earlier marked. Assisting counsel, can you show him the previously marked evidence pertaining to his tabulation or summary? Assisting counsel for the respondent may also approach, if so desired.

458
01:03:56,750 --> 01:03:59,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your Honor, I'll have to count po, since wala pong samadhi dito.

459
01:04:00,340 --> 01:04:02,860
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: What do you mean? You have to count? The 845?

460
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:04,920
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor. Wala kang

461
01:04:04,920 --> 01:04:05,840
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: percentage man lang?

462
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,180
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since personal notes ko lang po ito, Your Honor.

463
01:04:10,740 --> 01:04:12,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Raw tabulation lang po siya.

464
01:04:14,190 --> 01:04:19,570
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: So you would not have a... Ganong katagal nga abuti niya kung bibilakin mo?

465
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:35,560
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Kasi my next question actually would be, magkano ang total noong... Meron kayong observations at magkano yung wala.

466
01:05:05,980 --> 01:05:32,800
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If the Chair may assist, Atty. Wamil, look at your notice of suspension. You have an observation which I presume pertains to those rewards, payment of goods and medicines, that you made observations to and suggested to be suspended. So I presume it pertains to those ARs.

467
01:05:32,820 --> 01:05:36,080
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor, pero amount lang po kasi yung naka-indicate po doon.

468
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:44,660
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: And the total is... Sa 845, Mr. Presiding Officer, ilan ang total? Magkano? Magkano yung total? Sa 845.

469
01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,880
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: May I be allowed to perish po yung notice of suspension?

470
01:05:47,900 --> 01:05:49,460
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: You may refer to it.

471
01:05:51,930 --> 01:05:59,910
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Papayag na kasi ko sa ballpark figure. Basta bigyan mo lang ako ng... kasagutan. Anong total nung 845? Ano yun? 125 million?

472
01:06:00,350 --> 01:06:03,570
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Out of the 125 million, ilan po?

473
01:06:13,060 --> 01:06:13,980
Unknown speaker: Your Honor, please.

474
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:25,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's wait for the Witness counsel to answer. He's referring to your marked exhibit, the notice of suspension. I believe it's on the first page, Atty. Wamil.

475
01:06:27,530 --> 01:06:42,260
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa first page po, with respect to the payment of rewards po, 59,787,000 pesos po, Your Honor. With other purchases naman po, um, umabot po siya ng around 15 million pesos, Your Honor.

476
01:06:43,820 --> 01:06:47,240
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: So ilan yung walang observations? Walaking observations?

477
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:53,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Bali, ang total po nang may observation namin ay around 75 million pesos po, Your Honor.

478
01:06:53,620 --> 01:07:01,040
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: 75 million sa may observations, so around 50 ang mga walang observations. Ganun ba?

479
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:04,940
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

480
01:07:07,580 --> 01:07:10,400
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: And, alright, so that is for the 125.

481
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:19,700
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Yes, Your Honor. I don't have any time anymore, so it's okay. Thank you.

482
01:07:20,500 --> 01:07:30,080
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Sotto. Senator-Judge Lacson may proceed with his interjections when he's ready. You have two minutes, sir. Thank

483
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:35,240
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: you, Sir. Good morning, Atty. Wammil. Good morning, Your Honor.

484
01:07:38,250 --> 01:07:50,490
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Sa paggamit ng intelligence saka confidential fund, hindi lamang sa pinapayagan o hindi pinagbabawal ang paggabit ng alias, kundi necessity for practical reasons, diba?

485
01:07:50,670 --> 01:07:51,190
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Poyer.

486
01:07:51,270 --> 01:08:03,670
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: And idadivert lang yung totoong tao na sa likod ng mga alias kapag declassified na o tapos na yung tinatawag na confidential or intelligence operations, tamaan, diba?

487
01:08:03,850 --> 01:08:04,450
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Poyer, Your Honor.

488
01:08:04,530 --> 01:08:13,240
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: So ang tanong ko, meron ba kayong, wala ba kayong efforts? na alamin kung sino yung mga nasa likod na mga aliases na sinabit sa inyo?

489
01:08:14,060 --> 01:08:17,760
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since document-based lang po kami, Your Honor. Hindi na po. Wala

490
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:39,250
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: na po kami. Yan ang susunod yung tanong. Bakit paper audit lang kayo? Wala kayong physical? Parang bitin yung inyong pagsasagawa ng audit. Kasi paano n'yo malalaman kung legitimate yung kumirmado sa acknowledgement receipts kung hindi n'yo inaalam kung meron bang totoong tao na nasa likod? noong mga aliases na iyon.

491
01:08:39,430 --> 01:08:49,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since what we do po in ICVAW po is compliance audit lang po, Your Honor, so kuha doon lang po talaga yung provisions na nasa joint circular, yun lang po talaga yung ginagawa namin, Your Honor.

492
01:08:49,490 --> 01:09:09,800
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: That brings me to my next point. Baka pwedeng i-recommenda mo na i-amend nyo yung inyong JMC kasi parang bitin, in fairness to the concerned offices or persons na ino-audit. Tapat, kumpleto yung job process, di ba?

493
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:46,070
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Kasi kung paper lang, magre-rely lang kayo sa mga submission, hindi nyo inaalam, you don't go further than that, di ba? Anyway, wala ka naman doon sa, hindi ka naman deputy commissioner pa o associate commissioner, so siguro, i-recommend mo na lang na i-amend yung inyong JMC. So my next question is, what would you consider as evidence of success? of a particular surveillance operation and or intelligence information gathering activity. Ano yung evidence of success?

494
01:09:46,410 --> 01:10:01,210
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Actually, walang specific na document yung sinasabi ng Joint Circular. Pero nagbe-base po kami dun sa mismong wording po na dapat merong causal link between the successful intelligence or surveillance activities vis-a-vis yung information given by the informer.

495
01:10:01,250 --> 01:10:30,380
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Okay. Would an after surveillance report or after... intelligence report ng particular na agent, would it suffice para i-consider nyong evidence of success? I'm not referring to the entire operation. Kasi kapag nagsagawa ng surveillance, nagsasagawa ng after surveillance report, whether negative or positive, would you consider that as evidence of success?

496
01:10:31,180 --> 01:10:34,420
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Katulad po nang sinabi ko, tinitingnan po namin yung causal link. Kung

497
01:10:34,420 --> 01:10:34,760
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: may causal

498
01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:36,860
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: link between the success and the information

499
01:10:36,860 --> 01:10:45,720
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: given. Yan ang problema kasi beaten nga yung inyong audit. So, I would reiterate, i-recommend mo na i-amend ninyo yung inyong circular. Thank you.

500
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:58,550
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Lacan. Before proceeding to round 2, Chair would like to make some interjections. Atty. Wamil, you read the notice of suspension earlier and you gave what amount again? Can you kindly give him a

501
01:10:58,550 --> 01:11:01,110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: copy? Counsel for Prosecutors?

502
01:11:05,990 --> 01:11:07,450
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Puyo Anika yun, main time.

503
01:11:07,650 --> 01:11:12,850
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa payment of rewards po, yung total is 59,787,000 pesos po.

504
01:11:13,010 --> 01:11:16,630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You're referring to page 1 of the December 13 notice of suspension that you prepared?

505
01:11:16,910 --> 01:11:17,730
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

506
01:11:17,930 --> 01:11:19,250
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can you total it again for me, please, sir?

507
01:11:20,780 --> 01:11:22,040
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: The payment of rewards po.

508
01:11:22,220 --> 01:11:27,110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I totaled it and your total is wrong. Kindly total the figures that you wrote there.

509
01:11:32,210 --> 01:11:43,970
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ang dami namang nagkamaling numero doon. From 59,787, ang tamang total is 69,837.

510
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:45,370
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

511
01:11:45,670 --> 01:11:54,250
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But the figure you mentioned earlier was what was written here. How did you know that it was wrong, a typo, and now you're giving us the correct figures?

512
01:11:55,030 --> 01:12:00,750
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kasi yung 10 million po, Your Honor, hindi na-add dun sa total amount. 10 million po nung payment, reward payment.

513
01:12:03,070 --> 01:12:15,030
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pangalawa po, yung subsequent, each one says. Binabanggit po 69 million na pero yung yung detalye, hindi na po 10.5 million, 10 million na. Ano ba talaga?

514
01:12:17,330 --> 01:12:19,250
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Can you repeat your question, Your Honor? Sorry.

515
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:31,830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nakalagay po dyan 10.5 million. 10.05 million. Hindi po ba yung rewards? Yung reward payment. Yung subsequent documents issued by COA already refer to it as only 10 million. Anong pagkakay ba yun?

516
01:12:34,860 --> 01:12:37,780
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: What subsequent documents, Your Honor, yung tinutukoy n'yo?

517
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:48,140
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I am referring to the notice of disallowance later on and the documents mentioned also in subsequent documents.

518
01:12:49,300 --> 01:12:52,620
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala na po akong personal knowledge about the notice of disallowance, Your Honor.

519
01:12:52,980 --> 01:12:57,760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So ba't nakorek yun yung 10.05 naging 10 million na lang? You wouldn't know?

520
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,080
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I wouldn't know, Your Honor.

521
01:13:00,220 --> 01:13:15,240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In relation to the question of Senator-Judge Sotto, he said, how much is the total that were provided for? You gave a total in relation to the question of Senator-Judge Villanueva. Ano ba yung pinakaiba? Correct me if I'm wrong. You said you were aware of a notice of disallowance.

522
01:13:15,600 --> 01:13:16,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po.

523
01:13:16,620 --> 01:13:20,580
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How much was the notice of disallowance? Ano yung dinis-allow out of the 125?

524
01:13:38,010 --> 01:13:41,650
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang makakasagot po niyan, Your Honor, yung next witness po.

525
01:13:41,750 --> 01:14:03,020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, if you're familiar with the Notices of Disallowance, you testified, Atty. Wamil, that AOM, Notice of Suspension, Notice of Disallowance. So sa dulo, Pag iba na yung amount na nakalagay doon, marami nagtanong kanina, eda yung dinis-allow lang ultimately is only 73.287 million. Posibleng magbago talaga yun, di ba?

526
01:14:03,140 --> 01:14:03,920
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po, Your Honor.

527
01:14:04,160 --> 01:14:17,320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So yung AOM mo, yung kabuuan ng 125, yung AOM mo pangalawa, kabuuan ng 125, yung notice of disallowance mo, yung notice of suspension mo, kabuuan ng 125, pero posibleng iba na ang amount ng notice of...

528
01:14:18,900 --> 01:14:19,620
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Disallowance, rather.

529
01:14:19,820 --> 01:14:23,000
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, depending on the evaluation po kasi yun nung nag-audit po.

530
01:14:23,100 --> 01:14:40,810
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: One final question for this round as well. Let's focus on the failure to liquidate and notice of demand. Yung AOM po ba may failure to liquidate na at notice of demand na o wala pa? I'm citing paragraph 8.3 of the IJMC.

531
01:14:42,070 --> 01:14:49,670
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kapag AOM po kasi, wala pa po. Yun po ang AOM po kasi yung parang kinukonsider namin as demand po, Your Honor.

532
01:14:59,070 --> 01:15:04,810
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Wamil, there is a big difference because your notice of suspension, does it include a demand?

533
01:15:07,850 --> 01:15:08,750
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pardon, Your Honor?

534
01:15:14,840 --> 01:15:15,720
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pa po, Your Honor.

535
01:15:15,860 --> 01:15:19,740
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Isn't it correct na nandun lang sa notice of disallowance yan?

536
01:15:19,740 --> 01:15:24,440
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the joint circular po, doon po nirequire po na mag-restitute.

537
01:15:24,440 --> 01:15:32,900
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa notice of disallowance na. Wala sa AOM, walang demand sa notice of suspension sa notice of disallowance.

538
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:35,120
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: The demand to pay po, Yes,

539
01:15:35,140 --> 01:15:56,790
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor. So, when will the presumption come in? under paragraph 8.3. Kung wala pang failure to liquidate, dahil hindi pa final, kung wala pa yung demand until notice of disallowance na hindi pa final, kailan po papasok yung presumption o prima facie doon sa 8.3?

540
01:15:56,910 --> 01:16:08,280
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang wording po kasi noong 8.3, Your Honor, failure to liquidate. So kasama po doon yung failure to submit the documents, hindi po kasama yung failure to pay kung ano man po yung dinidemand.

541
01:16:08,500 --> 01:16:10,540
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nakalagay po doon, failure to liquidate upon demand.

542
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:15,700
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. So ang sinasabi po doon, isubmit yung complete documents with the ICPAU.

543
01:16:16,440 --> 01:16:20,180
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So pag hiningi nyo at hindi po nasubmit failure na yun sa palagay mo?

544
01:16:20,620 --> 01:16:25,960
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes sir, kasi ang sabi lang naman po is upon demand, hindi sila nakapag-liquidate po.

545
01:16:26,020 --> 01:16:28,900
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is your interpretation sir, correct? That is not found in the GMC.

546
01:16:30,380 --> 01:16:33,220
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang binibase ko lang po dun sa provision po ng JMC, Your Honor.

547
01:16:33,300 --> 01:16:35,200
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa interpretation mo nga ng JMC?

548
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:37,080
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po, Your Honor.

549
01:16:37,080 --> 01:16:40,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To avail of round two, Senator-Judge Pangilinan. Thank you, Atty. Wamil.

550
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:46,580
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To avail of round two, Senator-Judge Pangilinan. You have two minutes, sir.

551
01:16:48,540 --> 01:17:24,300
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you. Doon tayo sa acknowledgement receipts. So, andito yung mga acknowledgement receipts for December 21 to 31. Ang napansin ko rito nga, lahat buo ang numero, walang butal. 250,000, 500,000, na acknowledgement receipt. Tama ba na kapag resibo na official, ang malamang hindi buo, may butal, di ba? May detalyado, malamang.

552
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:25,840
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your Honor. Based

553
01:17:25,840 --> 01:17:34,480
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: on your experience. So dito, puro buo, 250, 500. Ni isa, walang butal. Walang sentimo.

554
01:17:34,780 --> 01:17:35,540
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So,

555
01:17:35,680 --> 01:17:51,250
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: yun, medyo isang concern natin yun. Pangalawa, 111 disbursements in one day. Naka-date. Do you confirm that?

556
01:17:51,910 --> 01:17:54,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po akong data nung number.

557
01:17:54,530 --> 01:18:22,240
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: This is about December 23, 2022. Nakalagay dito, date, December 23, December 23, December, binilang namin 111, isang araw, totaling 17 million. Pagkaganyan ba, is that, would you consider that use one? Disbursement, 111 disbursements in one day?

558
01:18:24,730 --> 01:18:29,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pong specific provision yung circular as to that.

559
01:18:29,170 --> 01:18:45,780
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, but the circular says, to prevent, irregular, excessive, extravagant. So, would you consider this, does this fall under regular, irregular, or you wouldn't know?

560
01:18:46,100 --> 01:18:47,120
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I wouldn't know po.

561
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:51,980
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: wala naman pong probation.

562
01:19:05,330 --> 01:19:19,030
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yung usapin nung meeting ninyo, yung audit query, nabanggit nyo na hiningi, di ba, nagka-meeting kayo, nagkaroon ng audit query, hinihingi ang audit query sa halip na AOM, tama?

563
01:19:19,270 --> 01:19:20,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

564
01:19:20,290 --> 01:19:22,390
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. At hindi kayo pumayag?

565
01:19:22,810 --> 01:19:25,910
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, since wala naman po siya doon sa aming Joint Circular, Your Honor.

566
01:19:26,110 --> 01:19:35,130
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Kung pumayag kayo, nawala sa Joint Circular, at nagbigay kayo ng audit query na hinihingi ng OVP, would you be violating the Joint Circular?

567
01:19:35,290 --> 01:19:35,910
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

568
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:38,540
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kaya hindi po kami nagbigay, Your Honor.

569
01:19:46,580 --> 01:19:50,560
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi lang po siya sanction, Your Honor. Hindi po siya part nung ini-issue namin.

570
01:19:50,980 --> 01:20:03,040
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, okay. Pero hindi nga part. Pero kung ginawa nga ninyo, based on your experience as auditor, you would be violating your own issuances.

571
01:20:03,630 --> 01:20:04,310
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

572
01:20:04,570 --> 01:20:11,990
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: That's why you refused to give the audit query as requested and instead, tinuloy n'yo yung AOM.

573
01:20:11,990 --> 01:20:13,830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Last question, sir. Kindly wind up.

574
01:20:13,830 --> 01:20:21,210
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, last question. Binanggit mo na hindi tinanggap yung AOM nung in-issue n'yo. Tama ba yun?

575
01:20:21,210 --> 01:20:21,750
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

576
01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:28,110
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Bakit? Alam nyo ba kung ba't hindi tinanggap dahil walang authorization? Tama ba yun?

577
01:20:28,150 --> 01:20:29,510
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. Wala daw pong mag-i-receive.

578
01:20:29,570 --> 01:20:39,130
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ganyan ba dapat? Ganyan ba ang kalakaran pagka ang isang ahensya ng pamalaan ay binigyan nyo ng AOM? Nangyayari ba yan na hindi tinatanggap ng ahensya?

579
01:20:39,250 --> 01:20:41,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yan po yung first time na nangyari po, Your Honor.

580
01:20:44,050 --> 01:20:45,270
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. That's unusual po.

581
01:20:47,410 --> 01:21:02,930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Pangilinan. Before proceeding to the other round two availors, Chair would like to recognize Senator-Judge Zubiri who will be availing of his first round to make his interjections. You are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes.

582
01:21:03,330 --> 01:21:13,450
Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Thank you very much, Mr. Presiding Officer. Magandang umaga po, attorney. Good morning po, Your Honor. Ito, broad strokes lang po ito, Mr. Presiding Officer, to my dear colleagues kasi

583
01:21:15,500 --> 01:21:26,360
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Sa iyong pananaw, dito sa findings ninyo, napapakita ba na may possibility of misuse and abuse of government funds on confidential and intelligence funds?

584
01:21:45,390 --> 01:21:49,310
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po. Since we follow naman po yung joint circular sa lahat ng inaudit po namin.

585
01:21:49,670 --> 01:21:56,550
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At hindi lamang sa ahensya ng eksekretibo, pati LGUs. Tama po yan?

586
01:22:16,760 --> 01:22:17,420
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

587
01:22:17,960 --> 01:22:29,380
Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Yes, kasi obviously, Mr. Witness, pag sinabi yung confidential in nature, huwag na kayo magtanong. Basta ginamit namin yung pera. Hindi sa tingin mo, tama po yan o hindi?

588
01:22:29,580 --> 01:22:37,720
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor, kasi ang confidential fund ay public funds pa rin naman po. So it must follow the strict accounting and auditing rules po. Para maiwasan po yung misuse.

589
01:22:37,960 --> 01:22:49,590
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So talagang hinahanap ninyo yung... Paano nag-gastos yung pera? Nagkaroon ba ng plano, plan of action, at paano nag-gastos ang pera at saan pumunta yung pondo? Tama po yan?

590
01:23:04,350 --> 01:23:21,910
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since ang audit po namin ay document-based, so nag-be-based lang po kami dun sa sinasubmit sa amin. So kapag hindi po properly liquidated, meaning hindi submitted lahat ng documents or yung documents ay hindi compliant doon sa requirements ng Joint Circular, nagkakaroon po ng presumption na...

591
01:23:22,180 --> 01:23:22,780
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes,

592
01:23:27,680 --> 01:24:22,180
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: kasi nung ako po yung naging Senate President for two years, we had access to the reports of confidential and intelligence funds. And in these reports, makikita po natin one particular agency Talagang detalyado. Ito po'y panggamit sa by-bust operation ng drugs. Ito po'y nabigay sa informant. Ito po'y nabigay sa mga tumulong, paghahuli nito mga tao. Ito, ayan ba'y ganun din po nakita ninyo sa OVP? Use of Confidential Funds? Pwedeng paulit po ng tanong, Your Honor. Sana mabigyan po ako ng leeway ng ating presiding officer. Basically, Noong ako po yung naging Senate President, yung Confidential Intelligence Funds ay dinadala dito during budget hearings. So, para ma-review po ng Senado. Ang ginawa ko po, noong ako po yung Senate President, binuksan ko po ito sa majority at minority. As a

593
01:24:22,180 --> 01:24:58,580
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: matter of fact, Senator Risa Onteveros, Senator Coco Pimentel was the minority leader then. Binuksan po natin yan para makita ng lahat yung paggamit nitong Confidential and Intelligence Funds. through the reporting of the different agencies. May mga ahensya na makakapal ang mga sinubmit sa Senado para makita kung gaano nila o paano nila ginamit yung pera. Dito ba po sa Office of the Vice President, ganun din ba po kadetelyado ang report na binigay po sa COA o nung nakita ng COA sa paggamit ng mga pondo nila?

594
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:02,600
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Opo.

595
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:36,320
Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Okay, and the reason why, and this as a statement, the reason why we need to really curtail the use of intelligence and confidential funds on the possibility of abuse, and not only on the office of the Vice President. This also goes to all agencies of government. Kaya limitado na po sa armed forces na lang yung ating confidential funds tuwing nag-a-approve po tayo ng budget. At kasama na po dapat dyan yung LGUs. Dahil yung LGU po ay matindi din ang pag-abuso ng kanilang Confidential Intelligence Funds. Tama po po yan, attorney? Under your experience?

596
01:25:38,140 --> 01:25:39,760
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. Kulang

597
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:40,000
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po yung

598
01:25:40,000 --> 01:25:40,600
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: safeguards, Your Honor.

599
01:25:41,160 --> 01:25:42,160
Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Maraming salamat po.

600
01:25:42,740 --> 01:25:48,920
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Zubiri. Next would be Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo.

601
01:25:52,030 --> 01:25:54,690
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, sir. When you're ready, you have two minutes.

602
01:25:59,280 --> 01:26:27,520
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Mr. Witness. Napansin po ba ninyo na yung isang acknowledgement receipt na 220,000 para sa payment of reward, parenthesis, various goods para kay T.J. Verano, 220,000 po ito. Ang date po ng receipt ay December 22, 2026. Samantalang expenditure ay para sa taong 2022.

603
01:26:29,390 --> 01:26:32,710
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Type o error po ba ito o minadali ang paggawa ng AR?

604
01:26:33,090 --> 01:26:35,570
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: 2026 po, Your Honor. 2026 po.

605
01:26:36,370 --> 01:26:44,640
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Acknowledgement receipt. December. December 2022 acknowledgement receipt. Ayan po.

606
01:26:46,580 --> 01:26:49,060
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Para sa 2022 po yata ito.

607
01:26:51,110 --> 01:26:56,790
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Is this type o error or sa tingin n'yo ay minadali?

608
01:26:58,050 --> 01:27:01,930
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Nagkaroon po kami ng findings about Jan, Your Honor. Lahat po nung

609
01:27:03,480 --> 01:27:10,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: That po nung ARs po na naka-date po, na hindi po naka-date ng 2022, naisama po namin doon sa aming notice of suspension po.

610
01:27:11,440 --> 01:27:16,780
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Okay. Pero ang pirma po dito ni T.J. Verano po, may pirma po dito, di ba?

611
01:27:18,080 --> 01:27:22,100
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on that document po, it appears na si T.J. Verano po.

612
01:27:22,220 --> 01:27:36,580
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So, dinate niya po ng 2026, in advance niya na? Or, binove forward niya po to 2026? Ang pagtanggap po ng goods? December 22, 2026? E para sa 2022 po ito?

613
01:27:37,130 --> 01:27:40,190
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, kaya po kami nagkaroon ng findings about yan, Your Honor.

614
01:27:40,410 --> 01:27:42,430
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Ah, okay. So, question po ninyo.

615
01:27:42,590 --> 01:27:43,530
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Opo, question po namin.

616
01:27:43,570 --> 01:27:58,760
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Pangalawang katanungan ko po, pinag-justify nyo po ba sa OVP bakit gumastos ito ng 2 million kada araw para sa safe house? Ito po ba isang safe house lang o? Maraming safe houses. Sumagot po ba ang Office of the Vice President?

617
01:27:59,040 --> 01:28:04,380
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the documents submitted to us, hindi po namin madedetermine kung ilan yung safe houses na pinagamitin po.

618
01:28:04,620 --> 01:28:13,160
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Pero sumagot po ba siya? Pina-justify nyo po ba? I mean, 2 million per day, it is sobrang laki. Hotel na po yata yung nire-renta po nito. Ganito ka laki, sobra pa.

619
01:28:13,420 --> 01:28:18,380
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po namin pina-justify, Your Honor, since wala namang pong threshold dun sa Joint Circular Study Amounts.

620
01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:26,230
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Na yung 2 million, so hindi po... Unusual para sa inyo na mag-renta po ng safe house sa 2 million per day dito sa Pilipinas.

621
01:28:26,430 --> 01:28:36,810
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since tulad nga po nang sinabi ko kanina, we follow our audit based on the provisions lang po ng Joint Circular pero wala naman pong threshold as to the amount sa Joint Circular kaya wala po kaming findings as to that.

622
01:28:37,150 --> 01:28:44,490
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So tama po si Senator-Judge Lacson na binibase nyo lang po talaga sa mga documents po wala po kayong physical audit?

623
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:46,640
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

624
01:28:46,920 --> 01:29:02,240
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alright. Based po sa experience n'yo, may mga government offices ba na inu-audit po n'yo na hindi tinatanggap ang Audit Observation Memo, AOM? May mga as an auditor? Or sumasagot silang lahat?

625
01:29:02,780 --> 01:29:05,040
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po. Sumasagot po silang lahat, Your Honor.

626
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:06,640
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Except dito kay OVP?

627
01:29:06,860 --> 01:29:12,260
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po tinanggap ni OVP yung aming first AOM nung nagka-time po kami nung unang time po.

628
01:29:12,810 --> 01:29:14,090
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Ah, alright.

629
01:29:14,800 --> 01:29:16,540
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: That's all, presiding

630
01:29:16,540 --> 01:29:17,280
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: officer. Thank you.

631
01:29:17,420 --> 01:29:29,100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Chair would now like to recognize our minority leader, rather, Senator-Judge Alan Cayetano for his availment of the first round. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready. You have two minutes, sir. Mr.

632
01:29:29,140 --> 01:29:29,420
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Presiding

633
01:29:29,420 --> 01:29:29,800
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Officer,

634
01:29:30,100 --> 01:30:10,730
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Senate President, dear colleagues, my question is to the Council for the Prosecution, Defense, and the Witness. One question, maybe a follow-up, and if we may start with the witness first to answer. I'm not asking you to make a judgment in this case ng impeachment. So sa akin is the answer the general question. So we've discussed in the last two days, di ba, what is illegal expenditure, what is irregular expenditure, what is improper expenditure. In between all of that, we talked about many, many technicalities. And of course, this will be much easier if we're talking about public funds.

635
01:30:10,880 --> 01:31:15,920
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So my question is, when we analyze the expenditure, when is it... in the nature of an administrative problem na parang o mag-submit lang kayo, i-justify n'yo to, o kulang lang ng dokumento, i-supply n'yo to. And when does it go up to na criminal na in nature na, sandali lang, may anomalya na dito or we might file charges against you. Ano yung bar n'yan, diba? So sa mga senator-judges na nanonood ngayon, and sa publiko na nanonood ngayon because nga confidential expenditures are in a class by itself. Di ba? Peace and order is so important. Security is so important. So I'm not referring to this case. So I'm not asking you to make a judgment in this case whether it's administrative, criminal, in general as an auditor. Then I'll ask the same sa prosecutor and sa defense.

636
01:31:17,470 --> 01:31:19,530
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Witness, go ahead. In your words, no?

637
01:31:19,990 --> 01:31:32,150
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kapag AOM po tsaka NS, nirequire po namin sila na mag-submit ng documents. Pero kapag nag-ND na po, since there's an obligation to restitute, so ang remedy po nila is to settle the amount or to file an appeal with the commission proper.

638
01:31:33,150 --> 01:31:57,120
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Yes, but even when you give them an ND to restitute, hindi nyo naman sinasabi pag-restitute. Pwedeng restitute na mali paggamit, hindi yung binulsa mo yun, di ba? So at what point as an auditor do you say na, Sandali lang, criminal na ito, may anomalya. Kasi puwedeng mali ang pinaggamitan, kaya isolin n'yo. But you're not accusing anyone of na binulsa niya.

639
01:31:57,700 --> 01:32:07,240
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Well, I'm sure ka lang naman po, mayroong presumption na tinatawag kapag hindi nakapag-liquidate na maayos yung agency. Which is presumption of misuse or misappropriation.

640
01:32:07,240 --> 01:32:09,340
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Yes, and that's a disputable presumption, right?

641
01:32:10,700 --> 01:32:12,520
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: It is a prima facie presumption.

642
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:25,960
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Yes, a prima facie presumption is a disputable presumption. it's not a conclusive presumption, meaning, yung prima facie, so, lilipat yung onus sa kabila na i-prove na mali. Tama?

643
01:32:26,240 --> 01:32:26,960
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

644
01:32:27,160 --> 01:32:51,660
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So, hindi pa rin dumating dun sa point na yun, na parang, hindi, as far as COA is concerned, ninakaw mo to. Again, I'm not talking about this case in general. At what point will you have a final COA document saying na yun. Kasi pag sinabi mo lang restitute lang, it could be restitute because you didn't use it for what you were using it for.

645
01:32:52,720 --> 01:33:08,380
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the rules of COA po, since di ba i-appel po yung, pwede pong i-appel yung ND, at kapag naglabas si commission proper nung decision at hindi po nag-comply si agency dun sa decision, then pwede nang i-endorse with the ombudsman yung case for the filing of criminal charges.

646
01:33:10,340 --> 01:33:13,240
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: I'm okay. I just want to hear the answer of both the prosecution.

647
01:33:13,580 --> 01:33:37,560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of Senator-Judge Allen, asking the counsels for the parties, that same question will already make them give their own versions of the law, which I think should be course through the witness, similarly to how you ask the question to the witness, instead of it being placed on the record based on their own points of view.

648
01:33:37,980 --> 01:33:58,020
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Well, anyway, we will have two more COA witnesses. But I think to all of us who are neutral, that's the big question. At what line does it cross between nagkamali lang yung isang public official sa pag-li-liquidate and at what point is it criminal? And I just wanted to give. I would be clarifying

649
01:33:58,020 --> 01:33:58,480
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: that too

650
01:33:58,480 --> 01:33:59,000
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: during

651
01:33:59,000 --> 01:33:59,780
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: my second round.

652
01:33:59,940 --> 01:34:12,740
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Then I will leave it up to you, Mr. Presiding Officer. I apologize. The prosecution and the defense, you will not have a chance to answer that. But during the time of the presiding officer, you will be able to. Or maybe even in the summation at the end.

653
01:34:13,260 --> 01:34:22,680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you for your understanding, Senator-Judge Allen. Senator-Judge Sotto, for his interjection. And availment of round two.

654
01:34:26,300 --> 01:34:31,520
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Senator Mick Subiri, former Senate President.

655
01:34:33,810 --> 01:35:23,660
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Somehow tinkered my cerebral quietness when he said something about the issue of confidential funds. So this question would be, as a senator, not just an impeachment judge, I hope you allow me, because this is just one question for the witness, and if we can get the prosecution panel and the defense panel to give their opinion. Alright? Yung confidential word kasi, pag ginagamit, parang intelligence eh. Parang ganun din eh. Di ba? Parang sinasabi mo. So, it is abused. Bakit hindi sa budget, nasusunod, and we want your opinion, para mas magkoconform sa circular n'yo. Palitan natin. Huwag ng confidential na gamitin. Gamitin natin restricted.

656
01:35:25,850 --> 01:35:29,750
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Restricted funds. Or non-public funds.

657
01:35:31,530 --> 01:35:45,590
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Ganun pa rin, di ba? private, but open. Naintindihan na nila na hindi confidential ito, na hindi ito pwedeng hindi nilalaman ng publiko. Something to that effect. Just the opinion of the... With the

658
01:35:45,590 --> 01:35:48,190
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: indulgence of Senator-Judge Sotto,

659
01:35:49,800 --> 01:36:03,720
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's good to stand up once in a while for being seated for a long time, but the Chair will not allow councils to respond and give their opinion on the matter and will simply allow the witness to answer, similar to the Chair's ruling in relation to the query earlier of Senator-Judge Cayetano.

660
01:36:03,940 --> 01:36:14,660
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Attorney Wamil. Well, I submit that po to the Commission on Audit po. I am not authorized po to give an opinion as to that.

661
01:36:17,860 --> 01:36:19,180
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That was the witness's answer.

662
01:36:21,170 --> 01:36:31,350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator, rather, Senator-Judge, Senate President, Wynne Gatchalian is recognized for his interjections. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thereafter, Senator Bam. So

663
01:36:31,350 --> 01:36:31,690
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: kindly prepare.

664
01:36:31,690 --> 01:37:02,590
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Isundan ko lang po yung mga questions ni Senator Risa at ni Senator Ping doon sa payment of rewards to informers without documents evidencing the success. Kanina natanong ni Senator Ping at ni Senator Risa tungkol dito. Ngayon, anong klaseng ebedensya ang hinahanap ng COA, ikaw in particularly, evidencing success?

665
01:37:03,490 --> 01:37:16,910
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since yung circular naman po ay walang binanggit na particular evidence, ang tinitignan na lang po namin sa mga sinasubmit ay yung causal link between the successful information gathering or surveillance activities and the information given by the informer. Can

666
01:37:16,910 --> 01:37:20,710
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: you give an example kung paano ginagawa niya ng ibang agencies?

667
01:37:22,070 --> 01:37:24,690
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Nagsasubmit po sila ng certification po, Your Honor.

668
01:37:25,290 --> 01:37:34,050
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Give me an example lang. Ano yung causal link? Anong example ang binibigay ng ibang agencies?

669
01:37:34,250 --> 01:37:46,010
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang nakalagay po doon kung ano yung naging successful surveillance or information gathering nila at kung ano kung yun ba ay dahil naging resulta nung information na binigay nung informant po.

670
01:37:46,970 --> 01:37:55,660
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So ganun, nagbigay sila ng reward or nagbigay ng pera para sa informant at mayroong success. Ganung kasimple.

671
01:37:57,180 --> 01:38:01,920
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I can only say lang po yung kung ano yung sinasabi dun sa provision ng Joint Circle, Your Honor.

672
01:38:02,260 --> 01:38:09,880
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: I'm referring to the other agencies because I want to understand bakit hindi sila, allegedly, bakit hindi sila nakasubmit?

673
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:15,100
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Anong ginagawa ng ibang agencies na na-audit mo?

674
01:38:18,590 --> 01:38:21,510
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ko na po pwedeng i-disclose yan, Your Honor.

675
01:38:21,650 --> 01:38:24,070
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But in simple terms, may reward at may success.

676
01:38:24,670 --> 01:38:29,930
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. And dapat, may pakita nila na it must be on the account of the information given po by the

677
01:38:29,930 --> 01:38:43,170
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: informer. Okay. And then, meron akong in the documents that were provided sa amin. Meron ditong document galing kay Colonel Raymond Lachica, a certification.

678
01:38:45,290 --> 01:39:13,740
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Basically, certifying. And this is for December 20 to 30. 20 to 31, 2022. At ang kasabi dito, no untoward incidents in the implementation of the Office of the Vice President, programs, project activities, as well as engagement of the Office of the Vice President. Hindi ba itong certification, no untoward incident? nagbigay ng reward. Hindi ba ito sufficient to say na successful?

679
01:39:14,180 --> 01:39:24,660
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor, kasi hindi naman po pinakita dyan yung causal link between the successful intelligence gathering or surveillance activities dahil sa information na binigay ng informant.

680
01:39:24,900 --> 01:39:38,790
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kasi in my own analysis, merong reward na binigay, walang untoward incident. That is the end goal, peaceful. Bakit hindi ka tanggap-tanggap itong... Para sa iyo ah, ikaw kasi nag-audit nito.

681
01:39:38,890 --> 01:39:52,950
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yun nga po Your Honor, since we base our findings kung ano po yung wordings nung Joint Circular, so yun po yung tinitingin namin yung causal link between the successful information gathering and surveillance activities vis-a-vis yung information given by the informer. So

682
01:39:52,950 --> 01:39:59,070
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: dapat po maipakita. Who determines the causal link? Kasi that's very subjective, di ba?

683
01:39:59,270 --> 01:40:01,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Opo, dapat po maipakita nila yung...

684
01:40:01,230 --> 01:40:01,630
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But who

685
01:40:01,630 --> 01:40:02,150
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: determines?

686
01:40:07,260 --> 01:40:14,260
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kapag sinamit po sa amin, Your Honor. Pero it is the, ano po, since it was the agency who gave the reward, so dapat maipakita po nila.

687
01:40:14,400 --> 01:40:24,250
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Oo nga, but who determines that ko sa link? Sino ang nagdedetermine na may link? Si auditor po. Which is ikaw nga, no? Kasi ikaw ang nag-audit nito, tama?

688
01:40:36,230 --> 01:40:43,810
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po kasi pinakita dyan, Your Honor, na yung naging result ay dahil sa information na binigay nung informer. Yun po kasi yung gusto naming makita.

689
01:40:44,230 --> 01:40:46,970
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Alright. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

690
01:40:49,680 --> 01:40:59,500
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senate President. Next to make his interjections would be Senator Bam Aquino, thereafter, Senator Marcos. You may proceed, sir. When you're ready, you have two minutes.

691
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:15,610
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Maraming salamat. My question is for Atty. Powa. Atty. Powa, what is the official position of the respondent with regard to Piatos, Andy Lim, and all of these names that are brought up? Are they real people or are they aliases?

692
01:41:16,450 --> 01:41:26,890
Atty. Michael Wesley Poa: Sir, I... I would like to answer a question, Your Honor, but that is part of the legal strategy which you will see when we present our evidence in chief. Again, may the

693
01:41:26,890 --> 01:41:41,350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: chair remind Senator-Judge Bam, as far as practical, let's let the witness present their evidences and not allow the counsels to make conclusions of either fact or law nor divulge their respective legal theories.

694
01:41:41,650 --> 01:41:51,120
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: These are not legal theories. In your previous answers, there was no referral to these individuals as either aliases or real people. Correct. In your previous answers.

695
01:41:51,700 --> 01:42:03,780
Atty. Michael Wesley Poa: Correct. Because that was precisely our legal theory then that there was nothing to answer at that point, Your Honor. But we will definitely show you our theory once we are given the opportunity to present our evidence in chief, Your Honor.

696
01:42:03,780 --> 01:42:04,740
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Maraming salamat, Atty.

697
01:42:06,440 --> 01:42:22,410
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Atty., during your conversation with the OVP, nung panahong binubuo yung AOM, may nagbanggit ba sa kanila na, oh, itong mga pangalan to, alias to? Or never nila nabanggit yung tungkol sa alias nung nag-meeting sila sa'yo?

698
01:42:22,570 --> 01:42:26,410
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Noong time po na yun kasi hindi pa nila na-submit yung documentary evidence of payments po.

699
01:42:26,550 --> 01:42:34,790
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So there's never been any indication from their responses or any calls that these names that are being brought up are indeed aliases? Wala?

700
01:42:36,150 --> 01:42:36,630
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. Thank

701
01:42:36,630 --> 01:42:42,730
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: you. Yung ibang ahensya na inaudit ninyo, gumagamit rin ba sila ng alias?

702
01:42:43,330 --> 01:42:50,370
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: We wouldn't know po kasi dun sa mga document na sinasamit sa amin, hindi naman po naka-indicate if it is an alias or not.

703
01:42:50,530 --> 01:42:54,210
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And it's not up to you to find out whether these are aliases or not?

704
01:42:54,490 --> 01:42:59,090
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, since wala nam pong provision dun sa Joint Circular, Your Honor, with respect to the aliases.

705
01:43:00,710 --> 01:43:11,820
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So itong paggamit ng alias, to your knowledge, Hindi nyo alam sa mga inaudit ninyo, but to your knowledge, gumagamit ba ang ibang ahensya ng mga alias?

706
01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:21,060
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I wouldn't know po, since, katulad nga po, hindi naman po, bukod dun sa sinasabit nilang documents, wala pong naka-indicate na yung name ay alias po.

707
01:43:21,340 --> 01:43:26,720
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: And your, the position of COA is, hindi ito bawal, pero hindi rin ito pwede.

708
01:43:27,020 --> 01:43:28,060
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, kasi silent

709
01:43:28,060 --> 01:43:28,500
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po yung

710
01:43:28,500 --> 01:43:28,880
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Joint Circuit,

711
01:43:29,040 --> 01:43:30,000
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your Honor, as to that.

712
01:43:52,260 --> 01:43:57,940
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I wouldn't know po if it is an alias since wala naman po naka-indicate dun sa document that it is an alias po.

713
01:43:58,020 --> 01:44:19,590
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, and we'll give the defense their time later on during their part to talk about this more as part of their strategy. Sige, let me change topic. Ito yung mga tanong ni presiding officer, ni Senator Cayetano rin. Yung pag-escalate from AOM to notice of suspension to notice of disallowance to referral to the ombudsman for cases.

714
01:44:21,270 --> 01:44:34,850
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Years ba ito? Time ba ito? Oras ba ito? Ano yung, ano yung decision point ninyo para iakyat to the next level yung, or i-escalate to the next level yung mga, yung mga utos ninyo?

715
01:44:44,070 --> 01:44:51,790
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kapag AOM po, meron po silang 15 days to reply to the AOM. Tapos kapag hindi pa rin sila compliant with the findings po, that's the

716
01:44:51,790 --> 01:45:05,010
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: time that we issue a notice of suspension. At kapag naka-receive po si agency ng notice of suspension, meron po siyang 90 days within which to comply. Pero pag hindi po rin po sila compliant, then doon na po kami mag-iissue ng notice of disallowance. In

717
01:45:05,010 --> 01:45:07,810
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: general, not the case of the OVP and DepEd,

718
01:45:09,510 --> 01:45:12,710
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Kapag may notice of disallowance na, naniningil na kayo, diba?

719
01:45:12,710 --> 01:45:19,450
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. And the next step is to refer to the ombudsman. May remedy pa rin po naman si agency.

720
01:45:19,450 --> 01:45:20,690
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, pakiexplain nga ano ba yung remedy? Which

721
01:45:20,690 --> 01:45:27,770
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: is to settle, bayaran yung amount or to appeal. Within? Within 180 days po from the date of receipt po nung disallowance.

722
01:45:28,030 --> 01:45:37,810
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, so we will find out with the next witness when that notice of disallowance was at kung pasok pa rin sa 180 days. Kung wala pa rin sa 180 days, then you refer to the ombudsman?

723
01:45:38,140 --> 01:45:48,320
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, kasi pag hindi po sila nag-appeal at hindi rin po sila nagbayad, nagiging final po yung decision and that's the time na we refer na po to the Office of the Ombudsman kapag hindi po sila nag-comply. At

724
01:45:48,320 --> 01:45:52,940
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: meron ka bang knowledge about the status of these disallowances right now?

725
01:45:53,560 --> 01:45:59,200
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po, since confidential po yan, hindi naman po yan ina-announce sa buong COA, so I wouldn't know po.

726
01:45:59,360 --> 01:46:10,350
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So let me ask the prosecution final... Question, is that the next witness? Is that going to be the testimony of the next witness? Itong disallowance, 180 days na lumipas, at kung may referral to the Ombudsman?

727
01:46:10,670 --> 01:46:11,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

728
01:46:11,330 --> 01:46:12,630
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

729
01:46:13,350 --> 01:46:23,670
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Bamakinan. Next will be Senator-Judge Marcos for her interjections thereafter. Senator-Judge Riza, kindly prepare. You may proceed, ma'am, when you're ready. You have

730
01:46:23,670 --> 01:46:23,950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: two minutes.

731
01:46:24,430 --> 01:46:36,730
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Maraming salamat, Ginong Pangulong Hukom. Itutuloy ko lang yung tinatanong ko kanina dahil may nabanggit kayo ng presumption of misappropriation. Tama ba? For personal use.

732
01:46:37,510 --> 01:46:39,490
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the joint circular po, meron po.

733
01:46:39,750 --> 01:47:10,150
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Oo, tama. Pakatapos nun, tinitingnan ko yung joint circular at maliwanag that the presumption for misappropriation arises against the accountable officer. Diba? Against the accountable officer. Sino ang accountable officer? Maliwanag naman yung Joint Circular. Sa 3.1, sabi yung officer whose duties permit or require possession of government funds. Diba?

734
01:47:10,630 --> 01:47:13,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the Joint Circular po, may ganyang provision. Oo.

735
01:47:13,530 --> 01:47:19,910
Sen. Joel Villanueva: So yung SDO talaga, yung Special Disbursing Officer, has the possession, the custody. Tama yun, diba?

736
01:47:19,910 --> 01:47:20,700
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po.

737
01:47:20,700 --> 01:48:11,440
Sen. Joel Villanueva: O kung ganon, if the presumption na personal use ayon sa 8.3 ng Joint Circular, failure of the accountable officer to liquidate any public funds is tantamount na nga to that presumption, hindi po ba? So, ang tanong dito, Sino ang accountable officer dito sa sitwasyon na to? Kasi ang liwa-liwanag na hindi naman si Vice President ang payee. Hindi naman sinasabi na nasa kanya yung pera. Ang liwanag sa inyong Joint Circular that the special disbursing officer is the one who was dis-designated by the head of agency to have custody. Diba? And in the case of the OVP, si Acosta yun. In the case of DepEd, hindi ba si Fajarda yun?

738
01:48:11,440 --> 01:48:11,800
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: That

739
01:48:11,800 --> 01:48:30,910
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: is not entirely correct, Your Honor. Because under the Joint Circular, it shall be the responsibility of the head of the agency first to approve yung cash advance. Pangalawa, to oversee yung agency-wide utilization. Pangatlo, to ensure compliance with the Joint Circuit Act. And also po, inattest din po ni OBP yung...

740
01:48:30,910 --> 01:48:44,890
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Unresponsive po. Ang tinatanong ko lang, hindi ba yung designated, yung SDO, si Fajarda lang at si Acosta, hindi si VP, hindi siya yung payee. Ang liwa-liwa na. Pero ang

741
01:48:44,890 --> 01:48:47,170
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: sinabi niyo po kanina, yung accountable officer.

742
01:48:47,850 --> 01:48:52,410
Sen. Joel Villanueva: So yung Accountable Officer, eh yung SDO, nasa JC. Hindi lang po

743
01:48:52,410 --> 01:48:52,570
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: si

744
01:48:52,570 --> 01:48:53,490
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: SDO po yung

745
01:48:53,490 --> 01:48:59,850
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Accountable Officer, Your Honor. Ang sabi doon, Head of Agency or Person Designated.

746
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:09,280
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Oo, ang liwanag sa definition ng Joint Circular. Mag-yes or no ka lang. Kanina ka pa, inaaway mo ko lagi. Sorry

747
01:49:09,280 --> 01:49:13,640
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po, Your Honor. But hindi po ako pwedeng mag-answer categorically since yun nga po yung provision.

748
01:49:13,740 --> 01:49:14,820
Sen. Joel Villanueva: But it's categorical.

749
01:49:15,240 --> 01:49:15,920
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Why

750
01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:16,240
Sen. Joel Villanueva: don't you

751
01:49:16,240 --> 01:49:16,660
Sen. Joel Villanueva: go back

752
01:49:16,660 --> 01:49:20,220
Sen. Joel Villanueva: to your joint circular? Kapag sinabi po kasing categorical,

753
01:49:20,220 --> 01:49:21,340
Sen. Joel Villanueva: it's either yes or no.

754
01:49:21,360 --> 01:49:25,700
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ang liwa-liwanag, SDO kapag na-designate ng head of office, di ba?

755
01:49:25,840 --> 01:49:34,360
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: But hindi po kasi doon na nalilimit lang yung term na accountable officer kasi may other provisions na applicable pa rin po with respect to the term accountable officer.

756
01:49:35,120 --> 01:49:41,560
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Asan? Kasi napakaliwanag doon sa definitions, napakaliwanag sa 8.3 ng joint circular.

757
01:49:42,570 --> 01:49:44,150
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yun nga po yung na-mention ko kanina.

758
01:49:44,290 --> 01:49:50,550
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Interpretation na ninyo yun. Pinapalawak ninyo na andun eh. Head of office, head of agency, or designated.

759
01:49:51,290 --> 01:49:54,530
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor. Kasi yun nga po, nakalagay po doon sa...

760
01:49:54,530 --> 01:49:54,890
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sabi

761
01:49:54,890 --> 01:49:56,450
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: mo kanina yes, ngayon no naman.

762
01:49:56,630 --> 01:49:57,990
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Wala po akong sinabing yes po, Your

763
01:49:57,990 --> 01:49:58,070
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Honor.

764
01:49:58,090 --> 01:50:00,910
Sen. Joel Villanueva: O sinabi mo kanina eh oo, SDO nga in charge.

765
01:50:01,370 --> 01:50:04,900
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sinabi ko lang po kung ano yung... I-confirm ko lang po kung ano yung SDO, Your Honor.

766
01:50:05,060 --> 01:50:10,000
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atung Iwamel, kindly avoid arguing with Senator-Judge Marcos.

767
01:50:10,200 --> 01:50:10,540
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And

768
01:50:10,540 --> 01:50:12,180
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: kindly wind up, Senator

769
01:50:12,180 --> 01:50:12,920
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: -Judge Marcos.

770
01:50:13,120 --> 01:50:25,080
Sen. Imee Marcos: Pwede lang itanong kasi nalito ako kahapon. Kahapon sinabi mo na si VP Sara Lang ang first and only vice president that you audited na may confidential funds. Sinabi mo yun, di ba?

771
01:50:25,240 --> 01:50:25,760
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

772
01:50:26,220 --> 01:50:44,340
Sen. Imee Marcos: Tapos kahapon nung pinakita ng Depensa yung saraw na si VP Binay noong 22 December 2014 may binigay na 6 million kay VP Binay ang DBM. Alin ba ang totoo sa dalawang sinabi mo magkatunggali?

773
01:50:45,190 --> 01:50:52,030
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yung pinakita po kakapon ay special allotment release order po. So nagkakaroon po ng special allotment release order kapag

774
01:50:52,030 --> 01:50:56,310
Sen. Joel Villanueva: merong... Alam ko kung ano ang SARO. Matagal na. Tumanda na po kami sa gobyerno. Pero

775
01:50:56,310 --> 01:50:59,930
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: hindi po kasi yan ni-liquidate sa ICPAO. So we wouldn't know if this was used

776
01:50:59,930 --> 01:51:00,250
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: or not. Hindi,

777
01:51:00,250 --> 01:51:07,990
Sen. Joel Villanueva: pero ang... ang... Claro, may katibayan na hindi ka isa-isang VP si VP Sara.

778
01:51:08,310 --> 01:51:10,810
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your Honor, since hindi po nag-submit ng liquidation,

779
01:51:10,890 --> 01:51:11,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: hindi din

780
01:51:11,230 --> 01:51:11,770
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po...

781
01:51:11,770 --> 01:51:15,150
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Teka, nandun ka na sa ICPAO noong 2014. Sabi mo diba?

782
01:51:16,230 --> 01:51:17,410
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. O

783
01:51:17,410 --> 01:51:27,130
Sen. Joel Villanueva: kaya nga. O di kahit si VP Binay may confidential funds, the only VP audited was VP Sara. Ganun ba

784
01:51:27,130 --> 01:51:27,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yun?

785
01:51:28,030 --> 01:51:31,150
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Since VP Sara lang po yung na-submit ng liquidation. Ba't

786
01:51:31,150 --> 01:51:32,110
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: hindi mo alam?

787
01:51:32,170 --> 01:51:34,070
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: If I may clarify po. Ba't

788
01:51:34,070 --> 01:51:37,210
Sen. Joel Villanueva: hindi mo alam? Nandun ka na noong 2014. Dapat alam mo yun eh.

789
01:51:37,370 --> 01:51:50,790
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: If I may clarify po, Your Honor. Since wala pong budget dun sa GAA as to confidential funds, at hindi naman po nag-liquidate si BPB na yung kanilang confidential funds, so hindi po namin alam kung ginamit, at hindi na po nakarating sa COVA

790
01:51:50,790 --> 01:51:51,970
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yung SARO po. Hindi,

791
01:51:51,970 --> 01:51:56,350
Sen. Joel Villanueva: ang tanong, nabigyan ng confidential funds, humingi at nabigyan, may SARO eh.

792
01:51:57,680 --> 01:51:58,280
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: We wouldn't

793
01:51:58,280 --> 01:51:58,360
Sen. Imee Marcos: know if it's

794
01:51:58,360 --> 01:52:11,170
Sen. Imee Marcos: useful. Iyon lang naman ang tanong eh. Of course you know may SARO. Sinabi mo nga, totoo yung sarong yun. Anyway, alin ang totoo? Si VP Binay o si VP Sara, talaga bang totoo yung dalawa o iisa lang? We

795
01:52:11,170 --> 01:52:14,530
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: don't know. Based on our records po, si VP Sara lang po yung may liquidation.

796
01:52:14,530 --> 01:52:17,150
Sen. Imee Marcos: So maraming we don't know ang koa? Ganun ba yun?

797
01:52:17,550 --> 01:52:21,750
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on our records po, si VP Sara lang po yung nag-liquidate nung confidential file.

798
01:52:21,970 --> 01:52:25,650
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Eh may record nga ng sarong. Maraming salamat. Kindly wind up. Thank

799
01:52:25,650 --> 01:52:27,530
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Senator-Judge Marcos.

800
01:52:32,500 --> 01:52:46,930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To clarify and finish that point, if there was no liquidation, there is nothing for COA to look at. But it's possible that indeed, confidential funds were given to the former Vice President Binay?

801
01:52:47,070 --> 01:52:47,790
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

802
01:52:48,010 --> 01:52:52,390
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So from your end, alam mo lang, wala kasi walang pina-liquidate sa inyo.

803
01:52:52,510 --> 01:52:55,570
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, and wala din po siya sa GAA po ng 2014, Your Honor.

804
01:52:55,850 --> 01:53:02,110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pero kung may sarong ha... na pinakita sa iyo kahapon at mapatunayan nila. Ibig sabihin nun, meron pero walang niliquidate sa inyo.

805
01:53:02,830 --> 01:53:04,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Maaari po, Your Honor. Pwede po.

806
01:53:04,590 --> 01:53:06,090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yun lang naman yung tanging rason dito.

807
01:53:06,210 --> 01:53:07,210
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Apologies po. May

808
01:53:07,210 --> 01:53:07,670
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: apologies po

809
01:53:07,670 --> 01:53:19,510
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sa iyo, Sir ID. Next to interject is Senator Riza. Thereafter, Senator-Judge Rafi Tulfo. Senator-Judge Riza, you may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes, ma'am.

810
01:53:28,820 --> 01:53:45,620
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. So, to clarify further and confirm, hindi nagbigay ng evidence of success si vicepresidente pero lumabas ang pera at marami ang nakatanggap ng reward. Based on the

811
01:53:45,620 --> 01:53:47,320
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: documents, Your Honor. Yes,

812
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:56,720
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: based on the documents. Now, based on your experience po, karanasan nyo bilang auditor, ano pang pinahihiwatig nito?

813
01:53:58,560 --> 01:54:00,960
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Pwede pong pakiklarify

814
01:54:00,960 --> 01:54:17,750
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: po. Ano po yung pinahihiwatig na hindi nakapagbigay? ng patunay ng success ng intelligence or surveillance operations pero maraming lumabas na pera at maraming tumanggap ng reward.

815
01:54:18,750 --> 01:54:25,870
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang ibig sabihin po niyan ay hindi po nag-comply yung OBP po dun sa requirements ng Joint Circular.

816
01:54:26,190 --> 01:54:36,590
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay, so yun ang pahiwatig sa inyo bilang, sa karanasan nyo bilang isang auditor. So, ngayon na... Wala nga yung evidence of success.

817
01:54:38,450 --> 01:54:45,410
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Matitiyak pa ba ng KOA na yung pabuya ay talagang napunta dun sa mga informants?

818
01:54:45,650 --> 01:54:46,770
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor. Hindi

819
01:54:46,770 --> 01:55:07,520
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: n'yo mapatutayan. O sige, pumunta naman tayo dun sa gamot. Di umanong gamot ang ibinigay na reward. So muli sa karanasan po n'yo sa ICFAO. And based on your expertise, Normal po ba iyon na gamot ang kapalit ng intelligence information?

820
01:55:08,700 --> 01:55:11,680
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po siya normal po, Your Honor. Hindi

821
01:55:11,680 --> 01:55:17,960
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: normal. Naranasan niyo na po ba ito dati na gamot ang bayad para sa impormasyon?

822
01:55:18,260 --> 01:55:21,360
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi pa po. First time po dun sa may OVP po, Your Honor. Okay.

823
01:55:21,440 --> 01:55:39,860
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: First time po dito sa OVP. At ito pa yung palaisipan. Kung may sakit talaga yung tao, na-investigahan n'yo po ba sa ICFAO kung bakit kailangang magbigay muna sa ng intelligence information bago siya bigyan ng gamot?

824
01:55:40,000 --> 01:55:40,900
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor.

825
01:55:41,120 --> 01:55:42,420
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Hindi n'yo na-investigahan?

826
01:55:44,020 --> 01:55:51,420
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Eh, so bilang auditor, ito po ba ay i-file sa ilalim ng pabuya o sa ilalim ng ayuda?

827
01:55:53,520 --> 01:56:02,580
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pwede po kasing tignan yan. Kasi since document-based po kami, pwede po siyang tignan as payment of rewards, pero pwede rin po siyang tignan as provision of medicine.

828
01:56:03,400 --> 01:56:07,320
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So pwede rin tignan as provision of medicine. So pwede rin siyang tignan na ayuda?

829
01:56:08,420 --> 01:56:12,220
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kung yun po yung ibig sabihin ng provision of medicine, pwede rin po.

830
01:56:12,320 --> 01:56:12,620
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pwede

831
01:56:12,620 --> 01:56:20,100
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: rin. So kasi, paano yun? Yung mga informant po ba most of the time, may sakit?

832
01:56:21,370 --> 01:56:22,490
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I wouldn't know po.

833
01:56:23,130 --> 01:56:29,550
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Natanong nyo ba kung ang gamot na yan ay para saan? Hika ba? Alta presyon ba? Diabetes ba?

834
01:56:30,030 --> 01:56:30,910
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po.

835
01:56:31,050 --> 01:56:47,730
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Hindi rin. And ayon po dito, si Mary Grace Piatos, ayon sa isang acknowledgement receipt, si Mary Grace Piatos ay nakatanggap ng 70,000 pesos worth ng gamot bilang pabuya. Ano po ba yung sakit niya?

836
01:56:48,440 --> 01:56:54,700
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I wouldn't, wala, hindi ko po malalaman, since wala naman po dun sa document po na sinamit. Will do,

837
01:56:54,800 --> 01:57:01,600
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Mr. Presiding Officer. Pero may paraan po ba ang ICFAO malaman kung ano yung sakit niya? Kasi binayaran natin ito eh.

838
01:57:03,870 --> 01:57:11,770
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pwede po naming tanungin, Your Honor. Pero since document-based po kami, kung ano lang po yung nasa document, yun lang po yung malalaman namin.

839
01:57:12,230 --> 01:57:19,500
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Document-based, pero pwede niyong tanungin? Yes po. Okay, kapag may mga di-normal na... Pangyayaring ganito. Yes

840
01:57:19,500 --> 01:57:24,020
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po. Allowed po kami under 6.2.3.7 of the Joint Circular. Okay.

841
01:57:24,500 --> 01:57:30,180
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat, Mr. Witte. Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you, Senator-Judge Riza. Mag-round 3 po ako kung meron po. Salamat.

842
01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:35,040
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's try to finish the interjections of Senator-Judges before we pause

843
01:57:35,040 --> 01:57:39,360
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: for lunch so that we can resume with the new witness of the prosecution after lunch.

844
01:57:40,360 --> 01:57:46,020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Rafi Tulfo is recognized thereafter. Senator-Judge Villanueva for the availment of Round 2.

845
01:57:48,980 --> 01:57:50,740
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, sir. When you're ready, you have two minutes.

846
01:57:56,220 --> 01:57:57,700
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Proceeding Officer.

847
01:57:59,420 --> 01:58:19,910
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mr. Witness, sa panahon na kung saan nagkabilang ka ng ICFAO at tayo kayo yung mga nag-audit ng mga ahensya ng gobyerno, meron ka na bang, bukod sa OBP at saka sa Dep. Andrew P. Pizarro, meron ka na bang ibang agency ng government na na-issue nyo ng disallowance?

848
01:58:20,980 --> 01:58:22,400
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa pagkakalap ko, meron na po.

849
01:58:22,830 --> 01:58:24,070
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Ano itong mga agency na ito?

850
01:58:24,430 --> 01:58:26,130
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ko po pwedeng i-disclose, Your Honor.

851
01:58:26,390 --> 01:58:29,290
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: At bakit? Bakit siya na-issue ng disallowance?

852
01:58:29,550 --> 01:58:34,730
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Dahil yun nga po, since ang basis lang po namin ay yung Joint Circular, hindi po compliant sa provisions ng Joint Circular.

853
01:58:34,910 --> 01:58:42,170
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, so nung na-issue ng disallowance si yung office niyo, ni VP Sara, ano yung naging tugon nila?

854
01:58:43,370 --> 01:58:46,710
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala na po personal knowledge, Your Honor, kasi wala na po.

855
01:58:50,350 --> 01:58:53,310
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Nabanggit mo rin na ikaw nga

856
01:58:53,310 --> 01:59:10,740
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: pinuntahan sa tanggapan mo sa COA para magkaroon ng tinatawag na audit query. Yan bang kauna-una ang pagkakataon lamang na meron taga government agency na pumunta sa opisina mo para makipag-usap sa'yo?

857
01:59:11,780 --> 01:59:21,520
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: May mga agency po na nagtatanong, nagsisig po ng clarification with respect to the provisions of the Joint Circular, pero yung OBP po yung first time na nag-ask po nung audit query.

858
01:59:22,180 --> 01:59:22,620
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: OBP?

859
01:59:26,500 --> 01:59:27,800
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: ba doon si Mary Grace Piatos?

860
01:59:31,920 --> 01:59:34,120
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pa po doon sa submissions nila po, Your Honor.

861
01:59:34,540 --> 01:59:35,200
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pa.

862
01:59:38,300 --> 01:59:46,780
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Noong puntahan ka, ng Chief of Staff, ng OVP at saka yung si Attorney na

863
01:59:48,380 --> 01:59:54,060
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: nandito ngayon. Nagkalimutan ko yung pangalaw niya. Ayoko na pangitin. Pua, puwa. Were you intimidated?

864
01:59:56,770 --> 01:59:58,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala naman pong ganun, Your Honor.

865
01:59:58,490 --> 02:00:08,760
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Good. And yun yung isang unang pagkakataon na sabi mo kanina na may pumunta doon para makipag-usap tungkol sa audit query.

866
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:10,100
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po.

867
02:00:11,120 --> 02:00:29,240
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Anyway, nothing personal sa'yo, attorney. You're a good lawyer. As a matter of fact, dati nakausap ko siya kung mayroong programang wanted sa radyo, may problema tungkol sa DepEd. And I call him at sumasagot naman siya. At yung mga sinasagot niya sa akin, okay naman. And for that... Hanga ako sa iyo. Doon lang

868
02:00:29,240 --> 02:00:39,360
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: sa programang Wanted sa radyo na mabilis kang lapitan at natutugunan mo yung mga problema at ilalapit ko sa programa ko. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Senator-Judge Raffi,

869
02:00:39,360 --> 02:00:41,910
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Zuleika. Yes,

870
02:00:42,750 --> 02:00:44,090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: what is the pleasure of counsel?

871
02:00:44,530 --> 02:01:02,850
Atty. Michael Wesley Poa: I don't know if this is an order, so I would just like to ask if you would allow me to do so. But since I've always been, I mean, I was alluded to and references were made to the meeting. If you could just give me maybe two minutes to just give context to that meeting. But if I'm not allowed to do so, then I will submit to the ruling of the...

872
02:01:02,850 --> 02:01:11,240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Unfortunately, counsel, no. That's why I also prohibited them from questioning you or... aluding to you in relation to any question.

873
02:01:11,520 --> 02:01:11,960
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You

874
02:01:11,960 --> 02:01:30,480
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: will have the appropriate opportunity during your presentation of Evidence-in-Chief if you do so, if you want to, to explain that meeting. Although I watched you trying to explain it yesterday already, which I will address later. But we will cross the bridge when you present your Evidence-in-Chief, Atty. Poe. You will have your chance.

875
02:01:30,820 --> 02:01:31,940
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Thank you. I

876
02:01:31,940 --> 02:01:36,760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: respect that, Mr. Presiding Officer. Senator-Judge Villanueva, you have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready.

877
02:01:37,160 --> 02:01:42,400
Sen. Joel Villanueva: I'll help a bit. Is there anything illegal, improper to that meeting, Mr. Witness?

878
02:01:42,960 --> 02:01:46,980
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala naman po. May mga agency naman po na nagtatanong din po sa amin.

879
02:01:47,020 --> 02:02:22,410
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you. Sa item 4 ng Feb 1 na AOM na ginawa po ninyo, sabi po ninyo masyadong general ang socio-economic... program delivery at hindi ito tinukoy yung specific confidential activities. Ano po yung minimum level of detail na dapat ay nakasaad po doon sa PFP o yung physical and financial plan upang makapagbigay po ng ito ng tunay na authority at spending limit at hindi naman na inilalantad yung sensitibong operational information.

880
02:02:23,130 --> 02:02:42,680
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang base po dun sa Joint Circular, dapat naka-indicate po dyan yung specific programs, activities, and projects po na pagbabasayan nung kanilang confidential disbursement po. Yung specific confidential activities po na kanilang pagbabasayan, since yan po ay plano, dyan po nakabase yung kanilang confidential expenses.

881
02:02:43,100 --> 02:02:46,160
Sen. Joel Villanueva: So the PFP is not merely a reporting form?

882
02:02:46,160 --> 02:02:48,700
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. Yan po yung basis for disbursement.

883
02:02:49,340 --> 02:03:09,120
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Dapat po bang approve at sufficiently detailed yung PFP bago ilabas o gastos e ng confidential funds? Kung magbigay lamang po ng mas detalyadong paliwanag, for example, pagkatapos magastos yung salapi, maaari po ba nitong retroactively ma-cure ang kakulangan dun sa PFP? Sa original PFP?

884
02:03:09,780 --> 02:03:11,880
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pwede pa ulit po ng tanong, Your Honor. Sorry.

885
02:03:12,120 --> 02:03:12,860
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ulitin ko lang ah.

886
02:03:15,770 --> 02:03:47,850
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Dapat po bang approve at sufficiently detailed na yung PFP bago ito ilabas o gastusin ang confidential funds at kung nagbigay po sa pagkakataong ito ng mas detalyadong paliwanag pagkatapos magastos yung salapi, maaari po ba nitong retroactively ma-cure ang kakulangan sa original PFP?

887
02:03:47,850 --> 02:03:51,040
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Maaari po, Your Honor. So makukure siya.

888
02:03:52,710 --> 02:03:53,850
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ngunit hindi ito nagawa.

889
02:03:56,620 --> 02:04:00,880
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kaya po natuloy yung AOM, kaya natuloy dun sa NS. Ah yes po.

890
02:04:02,650 --> 02:04:14,810
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Nabanggit po ninyo na limitado yung space sa accomplishment report, kaya hindi po maipaliwanag ng ahensya kung ano talaga yung bawat purchase o expense. Dahil dito, tama po ba na...

891
02:04:14,810 --> 02:04:25,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi dapat i-base lamang ng COA yung kanilang findings doon sa broad labels lamang at kailangan suriin muna ang bawat transaction at supporting document. Yes, Your Honor.

892
02:04:25,390 --> 02:04:45,610
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Doon po sa 82 million na medical and food aid, 20 million na incentives of traveling, sinuri po ba ng COA ang bawat purchase at payment? Alin po dito yung supported at allowable sa ilalim ng item 4.8? At alin naman po ang unsupported o hindi allowable?

893
02:04:45,950 --> 02:04:58,590
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang pinagbasayan po namin ng findings dyan is yung sinamit po nilang documentary evidence of payments po. Doon po namin in-evaluate if compliant ba yung COBP dun sa requirements ng Joint Circular. At

894
02:04:58,590 --> 02:05:00,930
Sen. Joel Villanueva: alin po yung supported at allowable at yung hindi?

895
02:05:02,030 --> 02:05:04,790
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pong data as of this moment po.

896
02:05:06,370 --> 02:05:14,330
Sen. Joel Villanueva: So you agree, certainly, yung broad labels ng medical and food incentives Do not by themselves

897
02:05:14,330 --> 02:05:15,250
Sen. Joel Villanueva: show

898
02:05:15,250 --> 02:05:15,950
Sen. Joel Villanueva: the nature.

899
02:05:16,290 --> 02:05:25,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: My apologies, Your Honor, pero yung sinabi niyo po pala na provision of medical and food data at yung payment of incentives or traveling are per se hindi po siya among the allowable expenses po.

900
02:05:25,590 --> 02:05:26,850
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Under 4

901
02:05:26,850 --> 02:05:27,310
Sen. Joel Villanueva: .8.

902
02:05:27,510 --> 02:05:29,010
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Paki-explain nga po pa.

903
02:05:29,610 --> 02:05:40,230
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Dahil yung enumeration po under 4.8 na allowable expenses ay exclusive po. So kapag hindi po kasama doon yung kanilang expenditure, hindi na po siya allowed as confidential expenses po.

904
02:05:40,620 --> 02:05:50,260
Sen. Joel Villanueva: So yung limited space in the accomplishment report may result in incomplete or overly broad descriptions. Would you agree?

905
02:05:51,070 --> 02:05:51,890
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po.

906
02:05:52,710 --> 02:07:06,590
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Kaya yung relevant question, Mr. President, is not whether the entire category was allowable or disallowable. The COA should be able to identify... nabanggit po ng witness natin, to identify the specific transactions and amounts that were supported, unsupported, or outside the allowable purposes. Tama po yan. Magwawakas lang po ako, Mr. Presiding Officer, by saying, again, and I founded this a while ago, importante na may independent, verifiable powers ang COA, hindi lamang dun sa documents na sinesend po sa kanila. Just to share my experience, when I was in TESDA, before the AOM came out, yung umpong scholar, for instance, tinawagan po yung scholar, e hindi po makontak, nagpalit po ng telephone number. Sabi, ghost na agad. So ang hirap po nun. But dun sa AOM, na-approve, kaya hindi nag-issue ng notice of suspension because natuntun yung scholar. So I hope that is very clear and would help. our Commission on Audit in doing their job more efficiently. Thank you very much, Mr. Witness. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

907
02:07:06,790 --> 02:07:13,930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Lacson, for his interjections, you may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes. Within two minutes. Thereafter, Senator

908
02:07:13,930 --> 02:07:14,330
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: -Judge

909
02:07:14,330 --> 02:07:14,750
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Padilla.

910
02:07:15,380 --> 02:07:25,810
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: What is your level or security clearance level? Top secret being the highest, access to documents and information, restricted being the lowest?

911
02:07:28,850 --> 02:07:34,250
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: meron ka ba security clearance na na-grant o na-issue para sa'yo?

912
02:07:36,230 --> 02:07:47,090
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Wala naman. Well, you know, I assume na mataas yung security clearance mo kasi ang hinahawakan mo, inu-audit mo, confidential information, confidential funds, di ba?

913
02:07:47,270 --> 02:07:48,210
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

914
02:07:48,410 --> 02:09:26,600
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: So I wonder why wala ka security clearance kasi paano ka mag-audit kasi pag may intelligence project, nakavolt yan eh. lahat ng aliases, yun ang nakalabas. Pero yung tunay na identities corresponding to the aliases, nakabolt. Pag declassified na, terminated na yung program, yung activity o yung project, intelligence project, pwede nang ilabas yun kasi declassified na yun. So kung wala kang security clearance, paano mama-access? Yung tulad na sinabi ni Senator Subiri, quarterly, nagpapadala sa Senate President, President, Speaker of the House ng Intelligence and Competence. Paano ginastos? Kasi may oversight powers kami, di ba? So, paano ka makakapag-audit properly kung hindi mo alam yung nature ng intelligence project or operation? Kaya kanina tinatanong ko, yung bang evidence of success per activity? Ano ba? After surveillance report. And mind you, you cannot call it successful. Kung negative yung surveillance, wala nakita eh, pero gumasas ng pera yun. So would you consider that another topic, as a success or evidence of success, maski negative, yung resulta ng intelligence information gathering, operation or activity, or yung after surveillance report. So kung walang result negative, ano yung hindi successful, hindi pwedeng i-clear?

915
02:09:28,670 --> 02:09:32,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Nakalagay po kasi yun yung nature ng item is payment of reward. So, dapat...

916
02:09:32,050 --> 02:09:50,120
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: No, no, no, no. Pagka kasi nag-acknowledgement receipt, no? Alimbawa, bumiyahe, meron ding informant yung informant, ginastusan, o bumila na sigarilyo sa sari-sari store, nagkape, kasi kausap yung informant, wala ka makikitang... Oh, thank you, Mr. President.

917
02:09:52,390 --> 02:09:52,990
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly wind

918
02:09:52,990 --> 02:09:54,030
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: up, Senator Lacson.

919
02:09:55,540 --> 02:09:56,720
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pati ako nabitin eh.

920
02:09:59,370 --> 02:10:01,330
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So may just respond na lang. We'll wait for your

921
02:10:01,330 --> 02:10:01,610
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: answer.

922
02:10:04,950 --> 02:10:08,090
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ay, sorry po. Pwedeng paulit.

923
02:10:09,210 --> 02:10:10,110
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ulitin ko ah.

924
02:10:10,290 --> 02:10:17,330
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Hindi lahat ng after surveillance report successful. Negative eh. Wala nakita. Pero gumastos.

925
02:10:17,790 --> 02:10:18,470
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Hindi

926
02:10:18,470 --> 02:10:32,130
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: lahat ng intelligence gathering information successful. Kasi negative. Pero may gastos yun. How would you classify that? Evidence of success ba yun?

927
02:10:32,330 --> 02:10:33,250
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: O hindi?

928
02:10:36,280 --> 02:10:41,100
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: These are practical questions. Kasi galing ako dyan. Kaya alam ko yung kalakaran.

929
02:10:42,950 --> 02:10:45,130
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: That calls for...

930
02:10:45,130 --> 02:10:59,470
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yun nga. Wala ka security clearance kasi. Kasi naka-bolt lahat yan. Pagka-intelligence project, naka-bolt. Pag declassified, terminated yung project, saka ilalabas yun. Nandun lahat yung mga tunay na pangalan ng mga aliases.

931
02:11:01,790 --> 02:11:03,130
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Kumuha ka ng security clearance.

932
02:11:13,350 --> 02:11:21,530
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Next to interject would be Senator-Judge Padilla. You may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes.

933
02:11:23,460 --> 02:11:26,380
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Marami salamat po, ginong kagapamahal ng hukom.

934
02:11:28,060 --> 02:11:40,050
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Susundan ko lang po yung mga tanong ko kanina, kabayan. Rebay Sija. Opo. Yung una pong cheque ay 125 million, December 20, 2022. Tama po ba?

935
02:11:40,050 --> 02:11:41,660
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, for Your Honor. Opo.

936
02:11:41,660 --> 02:11:47,960
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Batid n'yo po ba na ang founding anniversary ng CPP-NPA ay December 26?

937
02:11:48,480 --> 02:11:50,740
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po akong personal knowledge about that, Your Honor.

938
02:11:50,880 --> 02:12:05,580
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Dahil wala po kayong, katulad ng sinabi, Senator Lacson, wala po kayong clearance, ano? Pangalawa, second check po, 125 million, January 31, 2023, tama po?

939
02:12:06,500 --> 02:12:07,440
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

940
02:12:07,740 --> 02:12:13,950
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Ang NPA founding anniversary po ay March 29. Batid n'yo po ba yun?

941
02:12:14,410 --> 02:12:16,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po akong personal knowledge, Your Honor.

942
02:12:16,430 --> 02:12:22,890
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Third check. 125 million, April 18, 2023. Tama po ba?

943
02:12:25,790 --> 02:12:31,900
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ko po matandaan yung date po ng check. May I refer po to the check?

944
02:12:32,700 --> 02:12:33,500
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Stopwatch, please.

945
02:12:44,040 --> 02:12:47,460
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: April 18, 2023 po, yung 125 million.

946
02:12:52,530 --> 02:12:53,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

947
02:12:53,890 --> 02:13:32,390
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ang 50th po. Golden Anniversary ng NDF, National Democratic Front, ay April 24. Kaya ako po nabanggit lahat to, ito pong mga dates na to, noong December 26, March 29, April 24, lahat po ito, walang nangyaring attack. Lahat po, foiled. Wala po, for the first time, wala pong nangyaring attack. Kasi tuwing founding anniversary, may attack. Ang tanong ko po, ginaong kabayan, Naniniwala po ba kayo na malaki ang papel ng Confidential Fund at Confidential Agent?

948
02:13:34,230 --> 02:13:37,770
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Depende po yun sa kung ano po talaga yung mandate ng agency po, Your Honor.

949
02:13:39,040 --> 02:13:42,000
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Alam naman po natin na ang DepEd,

950
02:13:42,180 --> 02:14:02,210
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ang DepEd, diyan po nang gagaling ang tinatawag naming sa Communist Party po, ano? Meron po kasing pangkat-girilya ang pangkat-political. Yung pangkat-political, yan po yung mga estudyante. na nanggagaling sa universidad. Isang-ayon po ba kayo doon?

951
02:14:02,890 --> 02:14:04,750
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: I cannot answer.

952
02:14:04,750 --> 02:14:05,470
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: that, Your Honor.

953
02:14:05,750 --> 02:14:08,750
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Okay. Dahil wala nga po pala kayong clearance. Maraming salamat po.

954
02:14:09,610 --> 02:14:25,370
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Padilla. Before I let you go, Atty. Wamil, just to continue on the points I raised earlier, and to clarify it for the senator-judges, under 8.3, dapat may failure to liquidate at demand bago maging prima facie. Tama po ba?

955
02:14:25,550 --> 02:14:27,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, based on the provision.

956
02:14:27,590 --> 02:14:29,930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But the provision simply cites what?

957
02:14:31,450 --> 02:14:33,470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ano po yung basis noong 8.3?

958
02:14:35,280 --> 02:14:36,300
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Jurisprudence po, Your Honor.

959
02:14:37,080 --> 02:14:48,940
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi lang jurisprudence, hindi ba? Kinu-quote noong jurisprudence noong Martinez ang Article 217 ng Revised Penal Code for Malversation. If you read Martinez, that's the jurisprudence cited by 8.3.

960
02:14:50,500 --> 02:14:52,900
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ka na po maalala yung Martinez case po.

961
02:14:53,200 --> 02:14:58,760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: yun po yung nakalagay na kaso sa ilalim ng 8.3 na sinasite nyo po mula nung simula pa kayo magtestigo.

962
02:15:00,960 --> 02:15:03,680
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Nakasad po yun doon, gusto nyo yung tingnan. May I refer po?

963
02:15:03,700 --> 02:15:08,900
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly give him the Joint Memorandum Circular which he has been quoting from since the beginning.

964
02:15:30,480 --> 02:15:32,860
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on this provision po, yes, Your Honor.

965
02:15:33,280 --> 02:15:46,280
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You've been quoting 8.3 the whole day yesterday and today, so I guess you should know the basis. The Martinez ruling of the Supreme Court, which in turn only cited Article 217 of the Revised Penal Code. Are you aware of that, Atty. Wamil?

966
02:15:48,440 --> 02:15:57,360
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Which basically says na may prima facie para mag-file ng information ng Sandigan Bayan laban sa isang opisyal. Yan po yung kasong yun, di po ba?

967
02:15:58,830 --> 02:15:59,210
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are

968
02:15:59,210 --> 02:15:59,530
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you familiar?

969
02:16:00,400 --> 02:16:02,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi ko na po ma-recall po, Your Honor.

970
02:16:02,460 --> 02:16:10,790
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, to go to the details, failure to liquidate. Pag may AOM po bang in-issue, failure to liquidate na yun? Yes or no?

971
02:16:11,070 --> 02:16:11,750
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: No pa po.

972
02:16:12,450 --> 02:16:15,630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pag nakadalawang AOM, failure to liquidate po ba yun?

973
02:16:15,630 --> 02:16:16,090
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi pa rin.

974
02:16:16,750 --> 02:16:17,670
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi pa rin po.

975
02:16:18,130 --> 02:16:24,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pangatlo hanggang panglimang AOM na kulang pa rin yung sinasubmit, may failure to liquidate na po ba?

976
02:16:24,520 --> 02:16:27,070
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pa rin. Wala pa rin po.

977
02:16:27,070 --> 02:16:31,870
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pag nag-notice of suspension, may failure to liquidate na po ba?

978
02:16:37,320 --> 02:16:44,240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: May failure to liquidate na po ba sa inyong interpretasyon, dahil auditor naman kayo, kapag ka nag-issue na ng notice of suspension?

979
02:16:45,040 --> 02:16:55,480
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Based on the definition po kasi ng notice of suspension, nakalagay po doon na it appears that the disbursement is illegal, irregular, or improper.

980
02:16:55,860 --> 02:17:03,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It appears, but is it within the purview and definition of failure to liquidate, according to your interpretation?

981
02:17:03,520 --> 02:17:05,160
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Failure to liquidate na po ba yun, hindi pa?

982
02:17:06,660 --> 02:17:08,420
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor, failure to liquidate.

983
02:17:08,500 --> 02:17:15,060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa pananaw nyo, pag may notice of suspension, failure to liquidate na. Notice of disallowance, failure to liquidate?

984
02:17:16,790 --> 02:17:17,710
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

985
02:17:17,990 --> 02:17:27,010
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ngayon, failure to liquidate pa lang po tayo. Kailan nagiging final yung mga yan? Failure to liquidate. Yung finding na failure to liquidate.

986
02:17:27,990 --> 02:17:34,110
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kapag nag-appeal po and then nagkaroon po ng resolution si Commission proper at nagkaroon po ng final decision.

987
02:17:35,030 --> 02:17:39,590
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Final and executory na po siya immediately or after X days?

988
02:17:40,390 --> 02:17:50,530
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pag nag-final decision na po, yes po, final and executory na po siya kaagad. Immediately? Yes, po. Pag naglabas po ng decision si Commission proper, yes, po.

989
02:17:50,630 --> 02:17:52,930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Paano po pag in-appeal sa Korte Suprema?

990
02:17:54,790 --> 02:18:01,730
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang basis naman po nung, ang ground naman po nung petition processuary is a grave abuse of discretion.

991
02:18:04,230 --> 02:18:04,790
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: So?

992
02:18:07,400 --> 02:18:16,320
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pero ang nakalagay po sa aming rules po kasi, from the moment na magkaroon ng final decision, pwede na po siyang i-refer to the Office of the Ombudsman for the filing of the criminal

993
02:18:16,320 --> 02:18:32,180
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: charge. Hindi ko sinasabing pwede nang i-refer o hindi. Hindi ko rin sinasabing bawal maging subject matter ng impeachment. Ang tinatanong ko lang po, final na po ba yun? Meaning may failure to liquidate na at final na yung finding na yun o hindi pa kapag kainapila sa Korte Suprema?

994
02:18:37,550 --> 02:18:39,650
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As a lawyer, Atty. Wamilong, come on po.

995
02:18:39,830 --> 02:18:55,950
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kasi based on my understanding po, since yung final, kapag nag-issue po ng final order si Commission Proper ng Kowa, since yun na po yung time na pwedeng mag-endorse po for the filing of criminal charges.

996
02:18:55,950 --> 02:18:56,310
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po

997
02:18:56,310 --> 02:19:03,990
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: filing ang tinatunong ko. Ang tinatunong ko kung final na po o hindi sa pananaw ninyo. Ang usapan natin kanina nung tinanong ko kayo, di ba?

998
02:19:03,990 --> 02:19:04,930
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

999
02:19:04,930 --> 02:19:09,890
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Executory siya, maliban na lang kung may TRO, pero hindi pa final yung desisyon.

1000
02:19:10,190 --> 02:19:10,750
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po,

1001
02:19:10,830 --> 02:19:10,890
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your

1002
02:19:10,890 --> 02:19:11,090
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Honor.

1003
02:19:11,230 --> 02:19:16,070
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pero tama ka, pwede mag-file dahil ang requirement lamang naman para mag-file ay prima facie.

1004
02:19:16,070 --> 02:19:17,510
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

1005
02:19:17,510 --> 02:19:20,170
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yun nga yung sinasite n'yong kaso e sa Martinez.

1006
02:19:20,170 --> 02:19:20,990
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

1007
02:19:20,990 --> 02:19:25,850
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: At kaugnay naman po ng demand, ang AOM ba may demand?

1008
02:19:25,850 --> 02:19:27,110
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, since they require

1009
02:19:27,110 --> 02:19:27,450
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po

1010
02:19:27,450 --> 02:19:27,870
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yung

1011
02:19:27,870 --> 02:19:28,770
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: agency to comply,

1012
02:19:28,990 --> 02:19:33,110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to submit. Yun po ba yung sinasabing demand sa 8.3, mag-comply o magbayad?

1013
02:19:36,130 --> 02:19:40,830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi po ba ang requirement ng 8.3 ay mag-restitute na, hindi mag-comply?

1014
02:19:42,690 --> 02:19:48,150
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Ang nakalagay po kasi dito, liquidate po. So yung submission po ng liquidation requirements.

1015
02:19:49,030 --> 02:19:56,470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nakalagay po ay failure to liquidate is prima facie. Failure to liquidate and upon due demand is prima facie. Diba?

1016
02:19:56,570 --> 02:19:57,350
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

1017
02:19:57,430 --> 02:19:58,670
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: May demand ka ba sa AOM mo?

1018
02:20:00,380 --> 02:20:01,340
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

1019
02:20:01,340 --> 02:20:02,440
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Saan nakalagay dun?

1020
02:20:04,460 --> 02:20:06,440
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Saan po nakalagay sa AOM yung demand?

1021
02:20:09,640 --> 02:20:16,460
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Doon sa last paragraph po na hinihingi yung comments and to submit po the supporting documents.

1022
02:20:16,480 --> 02:20:20,550
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So hindi restitution yung pinag-uusapan natin nito. Demand to submit. documents.

1023
02:20:20,910 --> 02:20:25,690
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po. Yung restitution po, Your Honor, kapag may ND po, may notice of disallowance na na-issue.

1024
02:20:25,850 --> 02:20:36,750
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So basta may demand, so sa AOM mo may demand na pero wala pang failure to liquidate. At ang definition mo ng demand is demand to liquidate.

1025
02:20:36,750 --> 02:20:38,190
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po mag-restitute. Yes

1026
02:20:38,190 --> 02:20:38,970
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po, Your Honor.

1027
02:20:39,250 --> 02:20:40,250
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Tama po? Yes

1028
02:20:40,250 --> 02:20:40,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po,

1029
02:20:40,430 --> 02:20:49,870
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor. So sa puntong ito, sabi mo may alam kang notice of disallowance na. Kung walang appeal ito, final na yun pag hindi pumasok sa period of appeal.

1030
02:20:50,360 --> 02:20:50,780
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes

1031
02:20:50,780 --> 02:20:50,940
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: po,

1032
02:20:51,000 --> 02:20:51,200
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: naging

1033
02:20:51,200 --> 02:20:51,680
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: final ng

1034
02:20:51,680 --> 02:20:52,900
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: executory po siya, Your Honor.

1035
02:20:53,060 --> 02:21:09,660
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Finally, as a lawyer, if it is appealed to the Supreme Court under whatever relevant rule, 45 or 65, as a lawyer, does that make the decision of the COA final or does that mean it's not yet final until and unless ruled upon by the court with finality?

1036
02:21:10,020 --> 02:21:14,840
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yung decision po kasi ng COA ay may different aspects. Meron po yung i-restitute.

1037
02:21:18,420 --> 02:21:37,840
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kung i-endorse po dun sa Umbudsman for filing of criminal charges and admin, yung obligation to restitute po kasi kapag naging final na po, level pa lang po ng COA, ay dapat na po siyang bayaran. Even if there is a pending petition with the Supreme Court, hindi po siya may-stay unless may TRO po.

1038
02:21:38,080 --> 02:21:39,300
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Unless nga may TRO.

1039
02:21:39,300 --> 02:21:40,220
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, for Your Honor.

1040
02:21:40,220 --> 02:21:42,140
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Atty. Wamil. Thank you, Mr. Witness.

1041
02:21:44,010 --> 02:21:54,140
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You don't want to have lunch yet, Senator-Judge Riza? Yes, Senator-Judge Riza, before we break for lunch, one

1042
02:21:55,870 --> 02:22:02,130
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: question each from Senator-Judge Panghalinan as well, before we break for lunch and move on to the next witness. Yes, Senator-Judge Riza.

1043
02:22:02,470 --> 02:22:15,290
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. Mr. Witness, isang huling tanong na lamang po. Sa Government Accounting Code, sino po ang mga opisyal na tinuturing na accountable officers?

1044
02:22:16,310 --> 02:22:26,510
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Under the government accounting code, yung dispersing officer, yung accountant, yung treasurer, yung project officer, and the head of the agency po.

1045
02:22:27,470 --> 02:22:43,190
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At tama po ba na under this law, sa sections 101 at lalo na 102, ang head of agency ay primarily at immediately responsible para sa pondo sa kanyang ahensya?

1046
02:22:43,330 --> 02:22:43,910
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

1047
02:22:44,540 --> 02:22:47,000
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Witness. Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer.

1048
02:22:53,540 --> 02:23:09,960
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Yes, one or two questions, Mr. Presiding Officer. Doon sa sampung taon mong karanasan bilang auditor ng mga confidential funds, lahat ba nung tatlong pong ahensya ng pamalan, inuubos yung naka-allocate sa kanilang pondo?

1049
02:23:10,280 --> 02:23:11,900
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Meron pong iba na hindi po.

1050
02:23:12,340 --> 02:23:13,000
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Merong iba?

1051
02:23:13,180 --> 02:23:13,680
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

1052
02:23:13,860 --> 02:23:15,380
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So merong nauubos?

1053
02:23:15,500 --> 02:23:15,980
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po.

1054
02:23:16,200 --> 02:23:19,540
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At dito sa mga hindi nauubos, sa napupunta?

1055
02:23:20,900 --> 02:23:22,680
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Binabalik po nila sa National Treasury.

1056
02:23:23,060 --> 02:23:37,200
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Okay. So, dito kasi sa tatlong quarters, puro ano yan eh, no? Ubus lahat, no? 2022, 2023 first quarter, second quarter naman. Yung mga inaudit mo, ubus lahat, di ba? Based

1057
02:23:37,200 --> 02:23:38,100
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: on the documents po,

1058
02:23:38,160 --> 02:23:38,820
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yes po,

1059
02:23:38,840 --> 02:23:38,980
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Your Honor.

1060
02:23:39,020 --> 02:23:42,480
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Yes, okay. So, pero merong mga ahensya hindi inuubos?

1061
02:23:42,820 --> 02:23:43,640
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, sa

1062
02:23:43,640 --> 02:23:44,180
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: pagkakalala

1063
02:23:44,180 --> 02:23:44,380
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: mo.

1064
02:23:44,540 --> 02:23:48,880
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Dito naman sa usapin nung... Sorry.

1065
02:23:51,130 --> 02:24:10,540
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Itong sabihin ng finality, nabanggit ni presiding officer. So pagka nasa pending sa Supreme Court, hindi pa final, no? Ngayon, kung halimbawa sa AOM, si damit na ng Office of the Vice President at DepEd yung kompletong dokumento, walang problema, hindi ba?

1066
02:24:10,540 --> 02:24:11,460
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala na pong problema, Your Honor.

1067
02:24:11,500 --> 02:24:14,420
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So wala nang tutuloy sa notice of suspension?

1068
02:24:14,920 --> 02:24:15,520
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po.

1069
02:24:15,620 --> 02:24:24,340
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Kung after the notice of suspension, nag-submit, ang OVP ng lahat ng kinakailangan dokumento. Di, tapos na ang boxing. Ika nga, wala nang problema.

1070
02:24:24,780 --> 02:24:25,280
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes,

1071
02:24:25,280 --> 02:24:35,690
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Your Honor. And the same, from notice of disallowance, pwede pa bang isubmit, mag-reconsider, tapos isasubmit lahat ng dokumento? na narapat.

1072
02:24:35,830 --> 02:24:39,790
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pag notice of disallowance po is mag-appel na lang po or to settle yung remedies po.

1073
02:24:39,830 --> 02:24:40,210
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Hindi na po

1074
02:24:40,210 --> 02:24:41,930
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: yung submission lang po doon ng documents.

1075
02:24:42,310 --> 02:24:42,990
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Appeal sa

1076
02:24:42,990 --> 02:24:45,990
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: in-bank. Sa higher authority which is the commission proper po.

1077
02:24:46,070 --> 02:24:52,130
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Yes. And then, doon, pwede rin isubmit lahat ng dokumento. Maaari. Hypothetical, di ba? Kapag

1078
02:24:52,130 --> 02:24:53,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: inalaw po sila, Your Honor.

1079
02:24:53,070 --> 02:25:02,290
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Yes. At upon with the leave of the commission, di ba? At pag nasubmit lahat ng mga pertinent documents, wala nang problema. No?

1080
02:25:02,700 --> 02:25:03,400
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

1081
02:25:03,520 --> 02:25:11,270
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, in other words, ang usapin lang talaga rito eh, isabit yung mga tamang dokumento. Tama?

1082
02:25:11,510 --> 02:25:12,350
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

1083
02:25:12,630 --> 02:25:25,430
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And I would assume, pagdating sa Korte Suprema, dahil pending halimbawa sa Korte Suprema, pag sinabit lahat ng dokumento ng OVP para patunayan na talagang ginastos ng tama ang pondo, walang problema, hindi po ba?

1084
02:25:25,710 --> 02:25:26,550
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

1085
02:25:26,810 --> 02:25:38,680
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, dokumento, ebidensya ng dokumento ng gastos ang usapin dito para mawalang sala o hindi matuloy itong mga disallowances ng COA.

1086
02:25:39,330 --> 02:25:40,310
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po, Your Honor.

1087
02:25:40,570 --> 02:25:41,730
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Na nagkakahalagang?

1088
02:25:44,860 --> 02:25:48,460
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Disallowance po, hindi po ako alap ang personal knowledge

1089
02:25:48,460 --> 02:25:49,220
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: doon sa Yes,

1090
02:25:49,380 --> 02:25:55,020
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: about 300, I forget, pero tatlong kuwater yun. 375 million.

1091
02:25:56,240 --> 02:26:01,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, for the OVP, Senator-Judge Pangilinan, I think the notice of disallowance only pertains to about 73

1092
02:26:02,480 --> 02:26:03,180
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Ah, for the OVT.

1093
02:26:03,240 --> 02:26:06,300
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Million, only for the last quarter. Yes, for the last quarter.

1094
02:26:06,300 --> 02:26:10,420
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala pa namang ND lahat nung quarters eh. No disallowance

1095
02:26:10,420 --> 02:26:11,700
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: pero may mga suspension.

1096
02:26:12,120 --> 02:26:13,080
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. But we're

1097
02:26:13,080 --> 02:26:18,960
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: talking about several hundred millions na kung masamite lang yung tamang dokumento, wala tayong issue.

1098
02:26:19,340 --> 02:26:20,180
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, for Your Honor.

1099
02:26:20,300 --> 02:26:20,600
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you.

1100
02:26:21,300 --> 02:26:35,680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Panglinan, Atty. Wamil. Salamat po sa inyong oras at panahon at kooperasyon at pagsagot sa aming mga katanungan na may buong pasensya. at katapatan sa abot na inyong nalalaman. You are excused, sir, and thank you very much.

1101
02:26:36,360 --> 02:26:54,020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We shall pause for lunch and shall resume at 1 p.m. where we expect the counsel for the panel of prosecutors or the panel of prosecutors to present their next witness in the person of Ms. Aileen May L. Del Ocampo. We are on recess and shall resume at 1

1102
02:26:54,020 --> 02:26:54,260
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: o'clock.

1103
03:08:48,110 --> 03:08:50,210
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly situate yourselves in

1104
03:08:50,210 --> 03:08:53,950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: your respective areas and tables.

1105
03:08:58,790 --> 03:09:05,010
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel for the panel of prosecutors, Atty. Kapunan, I understand you'll be presenting your next witness?

1106
03:09:05,650 --> 03:09:06,470
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor.

1107
03:09:08,910 --> 03:09:10,350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly call your next witness.

1108
03:09:10,810 --> 03:09:16,150
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: We would like to call our next witness, Ms. Cylene May L. Del Campo, Your Honor.

1109
03:09:17,260 --> 03:09:31,600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The clerk of court is directed to kindly escort and situate Ms. Cylene May Del Ocampo to the witness stand and place the witness under oath.

1110
03:09:36,360 --> 03:09:53,940
Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Ms. Del Ocampo, please raise your right hand. You, Cylene May L. Del Ocampo, do swear. that the evidence you shall give in the case now pending between the Philippines and Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help me God.

1111
03:09:54,460 --> 03:09:55,000
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Yes, po.

1112
03:09:55,990 --> 03:10:01,240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly sit down, ma'am. Atty. Kapunan, I understand that you will be doing the direct for this witness?

1113
03:10:01,580 --> 03:10:02,180
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor.

1114
03:10:02,360 --> 03:10:05,060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: On the part of the respondent, may I get your name, counsel?

1115
03:10:05,580 --> 03:10:06,240
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor.

1116
03:10:07,710 --> 03:10:08,090
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Hello.

1117
03:10:10,250 --> 03:10:12,470
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Atty. Christine Ferrer for the defense, Your Honor.

1118
03:10:13,070 --> 03:10:20,310
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Christine Ferrer for the respondent. Atty. Gabunan, you may proceed when you're ready for your direct examination of this witness.

1119
03:10:20,890 --> 03:10:58,490
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Without permission of this Honorable Court, good afternoon everyone, Mr. Presiding Officer, Senate President, and Honorable Senator-Judges. Before we proceed, Your Honor, I think it is evident from the boxes in front of us that after the first witness where we had emptied, emptied, Four boxes. We have 11 boxes remaining, Your Honor. As may be seen here, and therefore, we find it necessary and useful to go through a stipulation with the defense, counsel, Your Honor.

1120
03:10:58,530 --> 03:10:59,290
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel may proceed.

1121
03:11:01,950 --> 03:11:39,740
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: For easy reference, we will likewise be flashing this on the screen with the client permission and showing documents. as we progress to the Defense Council. Your Honor, please also, as a blanket manifestation, we wish to state that the documents that are going to be presented are really common exhibits marked both for the prosecution and for the defense in the pre-trial conference and likewise is part of the pre-trial order. of this honorable court.

1122
03:11:39,900 --> 03:11:48,380
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, may I ask if you have a prepared list of documents for stipulation similarly to what you had yesterday?

1123
03:11:48,900 --> 03:11:50,940
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor. We will be flashing them.

1124
03:11:51,160 --> 03:11:56,300
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, can you furnish the chair with a copy of the same so that we can follow?

1125
03:11:57,630 --> 03:11:59,190
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor.

1126
03:11:59,490 --> 03:12:07,190
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Sergeant at Arms is instructed to kindly get a copy of the list of documents for proposed stipulation.

1127
03:12:08,130 --> 03:12:13,710
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Like question, Your Honor, for the rest of the impeachment court, Your Honor, we have them flashed on the screen.

1128
03:12:15,810 --> 03:12:21,650
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: The first document is letter response dated March 13, 2024.

1129
03:12:22,250 --> 03:12:30,180
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hold on, hold on, counsel. Have you furnished the respondent or counsel who responded with a copy of the list?

1130
03:12:31,090 --> 03:12:33,910
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: We have no copy of that list. It's on its way.

1131
03:12:34,490 --> 03:12:35,110
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you.

1132
03:12:35,720 --> 03:12:37,140
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Do you have a copy, Attorney Christine?

1133
03:12:38,190 --> 03:12:39,610
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I don't have a copy yet, Your Honor.

1134
03:12:39,790 --> 03:12:40,890
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly furnish.

1135
03:12:43,740 --> 03:13:05,820
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Court will declare a five-minute recess so that the counsel-respondent can review and go over the list to abbreviate the proceedings. Kindly go over it, Attorney Christine and your fellow counsels-respondent in order to be able to manifest which among these documents you are willing to stipulate. Court declares a five-minute recess.

1136
03:33:22,420 --> 03:33:23,820
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Future guidance of the

1137
03:33:23,820 --> 03:34:03,230
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: parties. May the court direct the counsel for the parties to kindly furnish the other side whatever list of documents for stipulation they may have in relation to the witness a day before at least. So that this thing that we're doing which should have been done during pre-trial actually will no longer be done in open court and waste, not really waste, but use up the court's time. So, Attorney Christine, counsel, correspondent, you are ready to respond to the proposed documents for stipulation contained in three pages.

1138
03:34:03,770 --> 03:34:06,030
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. You are recognized,

1139
03:34:06,250 --> 03:34:06,990
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ma'am. You may proceed.

1140
03:34:07,270 --> 03:34:22,720
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. After producing at the list, Your Honor, we will not be stipulating on eight items. And I will be enumerating these eight items and tell the court the reason why we will not be stipulating on these items. Your Honor, please.

1141
03:34:23,700 --> 03:34:29,360
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, what is the pleasure of the counsel for the prosecution, panel of prosecutors?

1142
03:34:30,300 --> 03:34:59,200
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: May we suggest, Your Honor, for orderly procedure that we go over our proposed stipulations and then they can respond accordingly because we also would like this honorable court, impeachment court, to appreciate the documents that will be stipulated upon which are as important as compared as well to the documents that will not be stipulated upon, Your Honor. They will be very

1143
03:34:59,200 --> 03:34:59,840
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: short in an

1144
03:34:59,840 --> 03:35:00,460
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: event, Your Honor.

1145
03:35:00,700 --> 03:35:11,060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, stipulation does not mean that you will not present it before the witness anymore for whatever purpose it may serve. Yes, Your

1146
03:35:11,060 --> 03:35:11,160
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Honor.

1147
03:35:11,620 --> 03:35:27,430
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: It does not, stipulations will not dispense with the need for the witness to testify and to identify the document and to attest us to its content, Your Honor.

1148
03:35:27,810 --> 03:35:58,690
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So just as to the authenticity of these documents and execution, I guess, that's what the stipulation is being asked for. So let's go through your list, counsel. Chair will instruct the counsel for the panel of prosecutors to kindly go over the list and maybe elicit a response from the counsel for respondent, whether they will stipulate or not. And you don't need to cite a reason, but you may do so also if you desire. Atty. Kapunan, you may proceed, ma'am.

1149
03:35:58,770 --> 03:36:01,370
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Without permission of this honorable court, it's flashed

1150
03:36:01,370 --> 03:36:24,060
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: on the screen for easy reference. It's a letter response dated March 13, 2024. This is Exhibit P-1-13B. And for the defense, this is Exhibit 1-120-OVP. Stipulated, Your Honor. We stipulate, Your Honor.

1151
03:36:27,550 --> 03:36:28,130
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Next,

1152
03:36:29,350 --> 03:36:46,970
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, is a notice of disallowance dated August 8, 2024, which is Exhibit P-1-13-C, and for the defense, it is Exhibit 1-108-OVP. Stipulated, Your Honor. We stipulate, Your Honor.

1153
03:36:47,770 --> 03:36:48,350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted.

1154
03:36:49,170 --> 03:37:06,710
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: The next is Exhibit P-1-12-F. which is the response dated April 19, 2024, Your Honor. This is Defense Exhibit 1-115, Office of the Vice President and Series.

1155
03:37:08,000 --> 03:37:08,840
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Christine?

1156
03:37:10,060 --> 03:37:12,280
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I'm sorry, Your Honor. Can I confer with my counsel?

1157
03:37:12,280 --> 03:37:13,040
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may do so.

1158
03:37:17,280 --> 03:37:19,440
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We do not stipulate, Your Honor.

1159
03:37:21,720 --> 03:37:23,300
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Proceed, Counsel. Attorney Capunan?

1160
03:37:24,720 --> 03:37:25,660
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Next, Your Honor.

1161
03:37:28,180 --> 03:37:57,400
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: We have acknowledgement receipts for the periods February 6 to June 30, 2023, and April 25 to June 30, 2023. For the appreciation of this honorable court, Your Honor, this is Exhibits P-1-8-850 to P-1-8-1714, representing the first quarter

1162
03:37:59,810 --> 03:38:25,540
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: documents of the Office of the President and the second quarter documents of the Office of the Vice President. The first quarter is 519 documents. The second quarter is 530 documents or a total of 1049 documents, Your Honor.

1163
03:38:26,030 --> 03:38:29,970
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, the copy you gave me is different from what you just read.

1164
03:38:31,990 --> 03:38:58,380
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The copy I have is exhibits P1-8-849 to P1-8-1898 and it covers ARs for the period February 6 to March 29, 2023 for the first quarter and April 25 to June 30, 2023 for the second quarter. That is different from what you are showing on the screen, counsel.

1165
03:38:58,720 --> 03:39:12,900
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor. My bad. It's what is flashing on the screen, Your Honor. The presiding officer is correct, Your Honor. But in any event, these are the same number of documents totaling 1,049.

1166
03:39:13,300 --> 03:39:20,350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I bring that up, counsel, because that is, I guess, the same copy that counsel for the respondent has, what I have. Would that be correct?

1167
03:39:21,650 --> 03:39:24,930
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: No, Your Honor, we have our own copies of the exhibits. No, do

1168
03:39:24,930 --> 03:39:25,470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you have the

1169
03:39:25,470 --> 03:39:25,670
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: same?

1170
03:39:26,050 --> 03:39:29,750
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is the copy, the copy that counseled for the panel of prosecutors, is it

1171
03:39:29,750 --> 03:39:30,570
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: the same copy? Yes, yes, the

1172
03:39:30,570 --> 03:39:33,010
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: list, Your Honor, yes. The same copy as the

1173
03:39:33,010 --> 03:39:35,370
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: presiding officer has, not the one flashed on the screen?

1174
03:39:35,630 --> 03:39:36,990
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor, I confirm that.

1175
03:39:37,470 --> 03:39:50,350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, you're asking for stipulation for the ones I mentioned, the ARs for the periods I mentioned, March 29, February 6 to March 29, 2023, and April 25 to June 30, 2023. Do you stipulate, counsel?

1176
03:39:50,900 --> 03:39:52,260
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We do not stipulate, Your Honor.

1177
03:39:52,680 --> 03:39:54,560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Move on, move on, Atty. Kapunan.

1178
03:39:54,780 --> 03:40:38,820
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, in connection with this, as in the first witness yesterday, since the presiding officer did point us to the particular provision in the rules of court, which is Rule 130, 3C and 3D, Your Honor, with reference to voluminous documents which would take A lot of time for this honorable court, Your Honor. Summaries will be allowed to be marked. So, just to mention ahead of time that we will not be presenting 10,049 documents but the summary, a tabulation prepared by this witness, Your Honor.

1179
03:40:39,120 --> 03:40:43,320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is in section 3C in relation to section 7. Yes, Your Honor.

1180
03:40:43,480 --> 03:40:45,820
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The court will allow it as it has allowed it yesterday.

1181
03:40:46,540 --> 03:40:59,880
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Thank you, Your Honor. Next is Exhibit P-1-12-G, which is a certification of

1182
03:41:01,860 --> 03:41:22,370
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: the VP-SPG certification dated April 4, 2024, which is Defense Exhibit 1-91, stipulated, Your Honor. We stipulate your honor.

1183
03:41:23,330 --> 03:41:24,530
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Jury noted.

1184
03:41:24,530 --> 03:41:25,490
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: We

1185
03:41:26,350 --> 03:41:52,010
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: have the protective intelligence operation report for the engagement of respondents Duterte and the vice presidential security and protection group for the first quarter of 2023. These are exhibits P-1-12-H up to P-12-H.

1186
03:41:59,130 --> 03:42:04,230
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, we have been told that council will not stipulate to this, Your Honor.

1187
03:42:04,370 --> 03:42:05,770
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: May we

1188
03:42:05,770 --> 03:42:06,770
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: know the reason, Your Honor?

1189
03:42:07,350 --> 03:42:20,820
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, we do not stipulate on this because these documents that they mark are incomplete. Hence, they will not truthfully reflect, Your Honor, what... What the document is, so we do not stipulate, Your Honor.

1190
03:42:20,880 --> 03:42:38,280
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Actually, to abbreviate the proceedings, counsel, no reason need be given by opposing counsel since stipulation is a voluntary act on their part. They may refuse and any refusal should not be taken against them as well, although it will abbreviate the proceedings. Please proceed, counsel.

1191
03:42:39,120 --> 03:43:10,980
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Next, Your Honor. is protective intelligence operations report for the engagements of respondent Duterte from the Vice Presidential Security Protection Group for the second quarter of 2023 exhibits P-1-12-M to P-12-M-13 which is defense exhibit 115 OVP and series again not stipulated upon. by the defense. That is correct, Your Honor.

1192
03:43:11,400 --> 03:43:14,880
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Moving on

1193
03:43:14,880 --> 03:43:56,470
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: to the third quarter. Incidentally, these documents previously mentioned are for the first and second quarter of 2023 Office of the Vice President. We now turn on to the third quarter of 2023 Office of the Vice President. The first exhibit is audit. Observation Memorandum or AOM dated August 8, 2024, Prosecutions Exhibit P-1-12-I, Defense Exhibit 1-106, OBP stipulated upon. We stipulate, Your Honor.

1194
03:43:57,230 --> 03:43:58,190
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted.

1195
03:43:58,490 --> 03:44:18,610
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Exhibit P-1-12-J, which is the Office of the Vice President's Response dated August 27, 2024, Defense Exhibit 1161-116, OVP and Series, not stipulated, Your Honor. That is correct, Your Honor.

1196
03:44:19,510 --> 03:44:20,530
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Exhibits P

1197
03:44:20,530 --> 03:44:39,880
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: -1-8-1899 up to P-1-8-2672, acknowledgement receipts for the period July 14 to September 30, 2023 for the third quarter. Not stipulated upon, Your Honor. That is correct, Your Honor.

1198
03:44:39,980 --> 03:44:40,720
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. P

1199
03:44:40,720 --> 03:44:54,520
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: -1-12-K, a certification dated September 30, 2023, Defense Exhibit 1-116, OVP and Series, not stipulated upon.

1200
03:44:57,160 --> 03:44:57,940
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Counsel?

1201
03:44:59,990 --> 03:45:01,670
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Sorry, I think...

1202
03:45:01,670 --> 03:45:04,090
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Certification dated September 30,

1203
03:45:04,330 --> 03:45:10,220
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: 2023. That is stipulated, Your Honor. Not stipulated. I'm sorry?

1204
03:45:10,830 --> 03:45:11,570
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Not

1205
03:45:11,570 --> 03:45:12,370
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: stipulated.

1206
03:45:12,370 --> 03:45:12,870
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Not

1207
03:45:12,870 --> 03:45:13,430
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: stipulated.

1208
03:45:13,590 --> 03:45:16,930
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: It is not stipulated, counsel? Yes, not stipulated.

1209
03:45:16,950 --> 03:45:17,450
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Not stipulated.

1210
03:45:17,930 --> 03:45:45,930
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Exhibits, thank you. Exhibit P-1-12-11 up to P-1-12-110. Protective Intelligence Operations Report. Third quarter of 2023. which is an attachment to the OVP's response dated August 27, 2024, not stipulated upon? That is correct, Your Honor. Notice of disallowance.

1211
03:45:45,930 --> 03:45:54,830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before you continue, counsel, I remember, Attorney Christine, that you had eight of these proposed documents for stipulation you will not stipulate on.

1212
03:45:55,130 --> 03:45:57,090
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Actually, Your Honor, it's ten.

1213
03:45:57,370 --> 03:45:57,950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ten?

1214
03:45:57,990 --> 03:45:58,390
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes.

1215
03:45:59,920 --> 03:46:05,180
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of Atty. Kapunan, let's try to abbreviate the proceedings. What are the remaining two that you will not stipulate on?

1216
03:46:07,060 --> 03:46:17,600
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, it's Exhibits P-1-17-5 to P-1-17-1229. These

1217
03:46:17,600 --> 03:46:18,760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: are the acknowledgement receipts

1218
03:46:18,760 --> 03:46:19,600
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: for the period of

1219
03:46:19,600 --> 03:46:23,240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: February 20 to March 30, 2023 and April 20 to June 29, 2023?

1220
03:46:23,720 --> 03:46:24,680
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Correct, Your Honor. And

1221
03:46:24,680 --> 03:46:25,280
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the last one?

1222
03:46:25,640 --> 03:46:43,040
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the last one is the acknowledgement receipts for the period July 12 to September 30, 2023, Your Honor. Marked as exhibits P-1-17, 1233 to P-1-17, 1894. The

1223
03:46:43,040 --> 03:46:44,220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: rest you stipulate on.

1224
03:46:44,440 --> 03:46:45,420
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Correct, Your Honor. Which

1225
03:46:45,420 --> 03:47:04,940
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I will read for the record. With the permission of Attorney Lorna, counsel for the panel of prosecutors. Council for Respondents stipulates on the following documents. Exhibit P-1-13-F, Notice of Disallowance, dated March 31, 2026, also marked as Respondents Exhibit 1-9.

1226
03:47:06,580 --> 03:47:37,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Exhibit P-1-21-B, Response, dated April 17, 2024. Marked as Respondent Exhibit 1-90 Exhibit P-I-22A Certification dated 11 January 2024 issued by Colonel Manaros M. Boran Singh II Marked as Respondent Exhibit 1-74 Exhibit P-I-1-22B Certification dated December 30, 2023 issued by Colonel Carlos B.

1227
03:47:39,300 --> 03:48:07,020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sangdaan Jr. Likewise marked as Respondents Exhibit 1-75 Exhibit P-1-22C Certification dated December 5, 2023 issued by Col. Magtanggol Panopio Also marked as Respondents Exhibit 1-76 Exhibit P-1-22D for the Prosecution and Exhibit 1-84DE for the Respondent

1228
03:48:08,780 --> 03:49:26,060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: undated certification issued by Colonel Adonis Bajau Exhibit P-1-21C AUM dated August 8, 2024 also marked as Exhibit 1-106OVP Exhibit P-1-21D response dated August 27, 2024 also respondents 1-93DE exhibit Exhibit P-1-22E Certification dated September 25, 2023 issued by Jai Chris Jan P. Mendoza. Also respondents Exhibit 1-97DE. Exhibit P-1-22F Certification dated December 10 issued also by Jai Chris Jan Mendoza. Also respondents 1-96-DE. Exhibit P-1-22G. certification dated December 12, 2023 issued by Adonis R. Bajau also respondents exhibit 1-94DE and finally exhibit P-1-22H certification dated July 1, 2024 issued by Darren E. Comia also respondents exhibit 1-95-DE. Would that be correct, Attorney Christine?

1229
03:49:26,360 --> 03:49:28,740
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. We confirm the enumeration, Your Honor.

1230
03:49:29,020 --> 03:49:30,100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, counsel.

1231
03:49:32,010 --> 03:50:36,830
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Thank you for that, Mr. Presiding Officer, but for the better understanding of this Honorable Court, the acknowledgement receipts which Council for the Defense has not agreed to testify on are as follows, Your Honor. For the first quarter, For the office of the Vice President, that's 519 documents. For the second quarter, 530 documents. For the third quarter of 2023, 774 documents, Your Honor. And if we include the 845 documents identified by Mr. Wamil yesterday, for the fourth quarter of 2022, This court will have to appreciate that counsel for the defense refused to stipulate on, well, it is the right, 2,668 documents, Your Honor. And for the DepEd, Your Honor, for the first quarter of 2023,

1232
03:50:39,090 --> 03:51:23,020
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: 561 acknowledgement receipts. For the second quarter, Your Honor, 619 acknowledgement receipts. And for the third quarter, 644 acknowledgement receipts. Or to summarize, 1,824 acknowledgement receipts of the Department of Education. office, which they themselves submitted to the COA ICFAO. Or a total, for the office of the Vice President and the DepEd, 4,492 documents contained in 15 boxes.

1233
03:51:23,580 --> 03:51:26,580
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi mo naman siguro kami tinatakot, Atty. Kapuna. Ay

1234
03:51:26,580 --> 03:51:26,940
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: hindi po.

1235
03:51:28,340 --> 03:51:29,560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly proceed, counsel.

1236
03:51:32,460 --> 03:51:41,660
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Also, Your Honor, the reason I made manifestation of this is we will not present the 15 boxes. We will present...

1237
03:51:41,660 --> 03:51:54,010
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: The witness will identify this, but we will be presenting in lieu thereof three tabulations. Four.

1238
03:51:56,260 --> 03:52:20,130
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Six. Six summaries, Your Honor. Six summaries prepared by this witness for the 400... 4,492 documents, Your Honor, which will be identified in due course of the testimony together with the acknowledgement receipt, Your Honor. With the permission of this honorable...

1239
03:52:20,130 --> 03:52:28,870
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As earlier ruled by the court, we will allow the witness to testify from a table and or summaries given the voluminous nature.

1240
03:52:38,650 --> 03:52:39,330
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your

1241
03:52:43,110 --> 03:52:44,090
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Honor, please.

1242
03:52:47,620 --> 03:52:48,300
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: We

1243
03:52:50,960 --> 03:53:11,700
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: likewise request the following stipulations, Your Honor, in addition to these documents, that the witness has taken over the audit of the liquidation documents of the Office of the Vice President for December 21 to 31, 2022 and the first to third quarters of 2023.

1244
03:53:12,500 --> 03:53:14,100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel took over from what?

1245
03:53:14,420 --> 03:53:15,780
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: From Mr. Wamil.

1246
03:53:16,800 --> 03:53:22,160
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: From December, meaning he took over...

1247
03:53:22,160 --> 03:53:32,720
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Has taken over the audit liquidation documents turned over by Mr. Wamil. for this period, Your Honor.

1248
03:53:33,120 --> 03:53:35,400
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Presumably when Mr. Wamil retired?

1249
03:53:35,740 --> 03:53:36,460
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor.

1250
03:53:36,520 --> 03:53:38,020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can you give the date when she took over?

1251
03:53:39,780 --> 03:53:43,880
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. Wamil retired February of 2024, if I'm not mistaken.

1252
03:53:44,800 --> 03:53:49,320
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor. February 12, 2024.

1253
03:53:50,160 --> 03:53:51,160
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Up to today?

1254
03:53:51,560 --> 03:53:57,180
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Up to the present, Your Honor, where he now serves in the COA PASA, Your Honor.

1255
03:53:57,260 --> 03:53:59,680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What does counsel for the respondent say?

1256
03:54:00,110 --> 03:54:11,110
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, we cannot stipulate on that because we are not from COA, so we are not privy, Your Honor, to any of the resolutions or memoranda that were issued with respect to the assignment of their employees, Your Honor.

1257
03:54:11,290 --> 03:54:17,960
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness can testify to that later on. Move on for your other requested stipulations, counsel, if any.

1258
03:54:18,160 --> 03:54:31,260
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: That the witness is competent to testify as to the documents that they themselves, the Office of the Vice President, and the DepEd. Submitted by way of liquidation documents to the COA IGFAO.

1259
03:54:32,560 --> 03:54:34,060
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Can I comment on that, Your Honor?

1260
03:54:34,220 --> 03:54:34,840
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, counsel.

1261
03:54:34,840 --> 03:54:40,300
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We will not stipulate on that, Your Honor, because they have to establish the competence of that witness to identify the documents.

1262
03:54:41,860 --> 03:54:42,700
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Move on, counsel.

1263
03:54:43,000 --> 03:54:51,010
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, we will not proceed with the other stipulations because counsel does not seem to be in the mood. to stipulate this afternoon, Your Honor. Your Honor, please.

1264
03:54:51,010 --> 03:54:53,450
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It has no relation with mood, counsel. Okay, we

1265
03:54:53,450 --> 03:54:54,310
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: will now go on.

1266
03:54:54,310 --> 03:55:06,090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The counsel for the respondent is well within their rights to refuse stipulation because this is purely mutual on the part of both parties. Your time will come too. Please proceed with your offer, counsel.

1267
03:55:06,530 --> 03:55:45,550
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: This testimony of this witness, Your Honor, is being offered for the following. First, that Ms. Cylene May L. Del Campo is a state auditor of the Commission on Audit Intelligence and Confidential Funds Audit Office. Second, that Ms. Del Campo was assigned to take over the audit of the OVP's liquidation of its confidential funds from Attorney Roderick Guamil, Your Honor. For easy appreciation of this honorable court, the purposes are being flashed on the screen, Your Honor.

1268
03:55:50,350 --> 03:56:02,430
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: In this, well, that siya po ang nagtuloy ng inumpisahan ni Mr. Roderick Guamil na evaluation ng confidential.

1269
03:56:02,810 --> 03:56:13,790
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair, I would just like to correct the earlier statement with your indulgence, Attorney Capunan. Mr. Guamil did not retire on February 2024. He was transferred to another office within COA. Yes, Your

1270
03:56:13,790 --> 03:56:14,690
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honor. Yes, please proceed.

1271
03:56:16,250 --> 03:56:38,030
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: That Ms. Del Campo evaluated the response of the Office of the Vice President to the notice of suspension dated December 13, 2023, which was issued in relation to the OVP's liquidation of its confidential funds for December 2022.

1272
03:56:39,810 --> 03:57:45,580
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Number four, that this witness found that the response of the Office of the Vice President to the notice of suspension dated December 13, 2023, is a violation and still non-compliant with Joint Circular 2015-01. Number five, that it was pursuant to this witness evaluation and recommendations that the notice of disallowance dated August 8, 2024 was issued by the Office of the Vice President. Number six, that Ms. Del Campo took over the audit of the Office of the Vice President responses to the Audit Observation Memorandum dated February 1, 2024, covering the first and second quarters of 2023, and AOM dated August 8, 2024, covering the third quarter of 2023.

1273
03:57:48,990 --> 03:58:54,980
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Thereafter, a notice of disallowance dated March 31, 2026 was issued to the Office of the Vice President for the liquidation of its confidential funds covering the first to the third quarter of 2023. This witness also took over the audit of the Department of Education's responses audit observation memorandum dated February 1, 2024. This covers the period the first quarter and the second quarter of 2023 and an AOM dated August 8, 2024 which covers the third quarter of 2023 for the Department of Education. Likewise, Your Honor, this witness will testify and authenticate such other documents and will attest to such other matters as are relevant and material to this impeachment case.

1274
03:58:57,330 --> 03:58:59,210
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Comment on the part of counsel, correspondent?

1275
03:58:59,930 --> 03:59:01,970
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Subject to cross-examination, Your Honor.

1276
03:59:02,230 --> 03:59:05,630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Subject to cross, counsel may proceed with her direct when she is ready.

1277
03:59:06,170 --> 03:59:18,130
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Thank you. Thank you, counsel. Madam Witness, can you again please state, pakisabi ulit, anong pangalan natin, your age, your occupation, and other personal circumstances?

1278
03:59:19,310 --> 03:59:32,830
Cylene May L. Del Campo: I am Cylene May L. Del Campo, 36 years old, a state auditor currently assigned in the Intelligence and Confidential Fund Audit Office of the Commission on Audit.

1279
03:59:34,280 --> 03:59:50,620
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Will you be testifying in English or Filipino or both, Madam Witness? In both languages, po. Okay. With that permission, Your Honor. Please tell us, Madam Witness, Ms. Cylene, ano ba ang educational background natin?

1280
03:59:51,520 --> 03:59:58,480
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Ako po ay nagtapos ng Bachelor of Science in Accountancy Degree sa St. Louis University, po.

1281
04:00:00,000 --> 04:00:26,220
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: And you said earlier that ngayon, ikaw ay state auditor na ng COA ICFAO, Intelligence and Confidential Funds Audit Office, correct? Apo. Okay. Can you tell us, before you became state auditor to this current position, meron ka bang ibang position sa

1282
04:00:26,700 --> 04:00:28,320
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: COA?

1283
04:00:29,070 --> 04:00:31,670
Sebastian “Baste” Z. Duterte: Wala na po akong naging ibang posisyon sa COA.

1284
04:00:31,870 --> 04:00:33,410
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: And when did you start there for?

1285
04:00:33,990 --> 04:00:37,830
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: You're being a state auditor of the COA ICVAW.

1286
04:00:38,290 --> 04:00:41,550
Sebastian “Baste” Z. Duterte: Nagsimula po ako noong August 26, 2014.

1287
04:00:42,630 --> 04:00:45,230
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: August 26, 2014.

1288
04:00:46,090 --> 04:00:52,940
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Opo. Just to remind us all, ano ba ang functions noong COA ICVAW?

1289
04:00:54,360 --> 04:01:07,880
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Ang COA ICVAW po ay, office under the office of the chairperson na nagti-take charge po sa audit ng intelligence and confidential funds ng mga government agencies po.

1290
04:01:09,000 --> 04:01:12,100
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: And what are these government agencies

1291
04:01:12,100 --> 04:01:16,000
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: that you have audited?

1292
04:01:16,890 --> 04:01:33,700
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Ang mga na-audit ko po is mga local government units, government-owned and controlled corporations, at saka po mga national government agencies na kasama po dito ang Office of the Vice President at Department of Education.

1293
04:01:34,260 --> 04:01:53,800
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: When you say Office of the Vice President, who? Which Vice President specifically during your current position from 2014 to the present? Which Vice President have you audited in terms of confidential funds?

1294
04:01:54,910 --> 04:02:06,990
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Nung magsimula po ako sa COA sa ICFAO, ang na-audit ko lang po na liquidation documents ng Office of the Vice President ay kay Vice President Sara Duterte.

1295
04:02:07,330 --> 04:02:08,310
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Bakit siya lang,

1296
04:02:08,430 --> 04:02:09,490
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Madam Witness?

1297
04:02:10,490 --> 04:02:20,610
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Dahil nga po from 2014 hanggang sa ngayon po, yung naisubmit po sa amin na liquidation documents is kay sa Confidential Fund po ni VP Sara.

1298
04:02:21,800 --> 04:02:23,680
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Mga sinubmit sa inyo?

1299
04:02:24,940 --> 04:02:43,920
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Apo. You also mentioned na nag-audit ka sa Office of the DepEd, Department of Education. Sino-sino mga sekretaris ng DepEd ang na-audit mo para sa confidential funds?

1300
04:02:46,220 --> 04:03:01,160
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Sa DepEd naman po, ang na-audit ko lang po na liquidation documents na na-submit sa office namin is liquidation documents sa confidential fund ni Vice President Sara Duterte noong siya ay Secretary of Education.

1301
04:03:02,530 --> 04:03:08,470
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Bakit? Bakit si Secretary of DepEd, Sara Duterte lang?

1302
04:03:09,630 --> 04:03:17,750
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Dahil po from 2014 to present, siya po yung Siya lang po yung Secretary of Education na may confidential fund.

1303
04:03:19,910 --> 04:03:39,420
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Let's go now to your current function as State Auditor of the COA ICFAO. And you started when, Madam Witness? Kailan ka nag-umpisa dito? August 26, 2014 po. Malalam ba, sino ang sinundan mo sa position na ito?

1304
04:03:41,350 --> 04:03:42,690
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Pwede pong pakiulit

1305
04:03:42,690 --> 04:03:43,090
Cylene May L. Del Campo: yung tanong.

1306
04:03:43,450 --> 04:04:08,360
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: You started with this office in August. Opo, tama po. And when you started in August, were there any liquidation documents of the Office of the Vice President and the DepEd in that office? Yes po, meron po. And did you evaluate them?

1307
04:04:09,240 --> 04:04:21,080
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Noong umalis po si Mr. Wamil, ako na po ang nagpatuloy ng audit ng mga liquidation documents po ng Office of the Vice President. at Department of Education po.

1308
04:04:21,240 --> 04:04:30,540
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Okay. And pag sinabi mong audit, anong klaseng audit ang ginagawa, ang ginawa mo, or ang ginagawa ng office mo?

1309
04:04:31,410 --> 04:04:35,410
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Ang audit po na ginagawa ng aming opisina ay post-audit po.

1310
04:04:35,770 --> 04:04:38,350
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Tell us again, what is a post-audit?

1311
04:04:38,610 --> 04:04:50,490
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Sa post-audit po na ito, natapos na po yung transaksyon at paggastos ng pondo, doon na po kami mag-audit. pag natapos na po ang transaction at paggastos ng pondo.

1312
04:04:50,550 --> 04:04:57,030
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Natapos na yung transaction, nagastos na yung pera, ino-audit

1313
04:04:57,030 --> 04:04:58,150
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: nyo. Anong ino-audit nyo?

1314
04:04:58,150 --> 04:05:04,050
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Ang ino-audit po namin is yung utilization ng Confidential and Intelligence Fund.

1315
04:05:04,570 --> 04:05:13,460
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Okay. Ngayon, what were these documents that Mr. Wamil left and which you took over with?

1316
04:05:16,620 --> 04:05:38,040
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Bale po, iniwan po niya sa akin ang mga documents ng OBP for the periods December 21 to 31, 2022, kasama na rin po ang first to third quarters ng 2023. And for the DepEd po, iniwan din po niya sa akin ang mga documents for the first, second, and third quarters of 2023.

1317
04:05:41,340 --> 04:06:19,230
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Showing to you, Madam Witness, a tabulation. merong ginawang tabulation si Mr. Wamil at ito po ay minarkahan natin to cover exhibits P-1-8-1 up to P-1-8-848 covering 845 acknowledgement receipts for the period December 21 to 31, 2022 if shown to you. the stabulation and the supporting acknowledgement receipts. Please identify the same.

1318
04:06:23,990 --> 04:06:26,630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Assisting counsels may approach from both parties.

1319
04:07:27,510 --> 04:07:28,710
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, may we

1320
04:07:28,710 --> 04:07:38,250
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: manifest for the record that this witness, Your Honor, is going over, perusing all of these documents, 845 acknowledgement receipts.

1321
04:07:38,750 --> 04:07:46,070
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, I thought the witness will simply peruse the table or summary of Mr. Wamil.

1322
04:07:46,930 --> 04:07:56,710
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor. These are the documents. These are the ARs mentioned in the tabulation which she also is looking at, Your Honor.

1323
04:07:58,360 --> 04:08:07,240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, so not just the summary and table prepared by Mr. Wamil, also some samples of the ARs covering the 845 ARs.

1324
04:08:07,660 --> 04:08:19,680
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: She is looking currently at all of these 845 documents, Your Honor. Because, Your Honor, again, counsel for the respondent did not stipulate on these documents.

1325
04:09:29,710 --> 04:09:49,330
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, please, for efficient use of time, Your Honor, these ARs are just being shown to the witness, Your Honor, for identification, but counsel for the respondents may certainly go over them one by one after this trial this afternoon, Your Honor.

1326
04:09:56,070 --> 04:09:57,730
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The manifestation is noted.

1327
04:14:12,020 --> 04:16:08,820
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of the Council for the Parties, while the witness is perusing the acknowledgement receipts for the period covering December 21 to December 31, 2022. Chair would like to make some administrative orders to save on the Court's time. On the subpoena documents which were submitted to the Clerk of Court on July 30, 2026, and on those that will be submitted on August 13, pursuant to the request for extension. by the two aforementioned banks, namely BDO Unibank and Security Bank. We note that the Clerk of Court performed merely the mechanical act of receiving the submissions from the subpoenaed institutions, while the subject banks and institutions represented that the documents contained in the USB given to the Court are the exact mirror of the hard copies they submitted, which are in turn accurately reflected. In their respective document indices, the court has had no opportunity to confirm the same. Therefore, the presiding officer orders the clerk of court to compare the digital and printed copies of the submissions, both as of now and those that will be submitted, and to check them against the list provided for by the banks to make sure that the USBs indeed contain The hard copy submitted before the court and Sotto turns it over to the parties in due course. So ordered.

1328
04:16:12,780 --> 04:16:15,100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hylene, kamusta ka na? Malapit ka na o hindi pa?

1329
04:16:26,760 --> 04:16:29,720
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, medyo marami pa po.

1330
04:16:30,520 --> 04:16:32,860
Unknown speaker: ...

1331
04:17:50,560 --> 04:18:22,460
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of the counsel, for the panel of prosecutors as well as the counsel for the respondent, we will be adjourning. in a few minutes for our afternoon session. So, so we're able to move on somewhat. The court directs that Hylene go over these documents after today's trial so that when she continues her testimony on Monday, that she can already testify as to

1332
04:18:24,010 --> 04:18:50,150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Those documents, if indeed those are the same documents that she reviewed, perused, and were turned over to her by Attorney Wamil. In the meantime, counsel, perhaps you can proceed with the table or the summary prepared by either Mr. Wamil or the witness before we call for adjournment. At least napakinggan natin si Ms. Hyline.

1333
04:18:50,760 --> 04:18:52,900
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, just a quick manifestation, Your Honor.

1334
04:18:53,000 --> 04:18:54,040
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, counsel, for responding.

1335
04:18:54,520 --> 04:19:34,690
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. We noted that the list of accounts which was supposed to be prepared by Mr. Wamil with the caption, OVP, open parenthesis, December 21 to 31, 2022, close parenthesis, was unsigned. and it was undated. Second, the witness is merely flipping the pages without comparing the ARs with the list, Your Honor, to check whether the ARs are the same with what was listed by Mr. Wamil, Your Honor. And the third one is that we note that the folders containing the ARs were not marked as exhibits of the prosecution, Your Honor. For the record, Your Honor. Julie

1336
04:19:34,690 --> 04:19:47,290
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: noted, however, the witness may testify as to the Summary and our table if she's aware of it and if indeed it was part of the documents turned over to her by Mr. Wamil. Counsel for the panel of prosecutors.

1337
04:19:48,830 --> 04:20:05,570
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, we are tempted to make a counter-manifestation, Your Honor, because, Your Honor, these manifestations, Your Honor, are because of their own doing, Your Honor. But in any event...

1338
04:20:05,570 --> 04:20:07,430
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I hope you won't give in to the temptation, Counsel.

1339
04:20:07,750 --> 04:20:10,630
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: I will not. I will not, Your Honor.

1340
04:20:12,400 --> 04:20:15,740
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: It's the wisdom of age. I will not.

1341
04:20:18,480 --> 04:20:20,060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's get something out of

1342
04:20:20,060 --> 04:21:27,370
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Ms. Aileen. In fact, Your Honor, may I continue, may we continue to aid this honorable presiding officer that during the interregnum from today's proceedings until Monday. There will be other tabulations, Your Honor, and there will be other acknowledgement receipts. And we propose, Your Honor, and regret that this is not unusual, but it is necessary, Your Honor, that all of these documents, because counsel says that this witness was just flipping over them. They can do this in front of the defense councils and us, Your Honor, for the next succeeding days. Because we will be going over 4,492 documents and 6 summaries, Your Honor. Hopefully that we will be doing that in the next days. out of court so that by Monday it will be a speedier presentation of testimonial evidence, Your Honor.

1343
04:21:27,510 --> 04:21:31,430
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If you're converting that, are you making a motion, counsel?

1344
04:21:31,690 --> 04:21:55,560
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor, may we so move that we be allowed to do this, not only as respect to the last quarter of December 2022, which is suggestion of the presiding. officer, but to all the quarters, quarter 1, 2, and 3, for the OVP, and quarter 1, 2, and 3, for the DepEd.

1345
04:21:55,920 --> 04:21:58,460
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Only with respect to the acknowledgement receipts. Only with

1346
04:21:58,460 --> 04:22:06,220
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: respect to Your Honor, the acknowledgement, well, the acknowledgement receipts.

1347
04:22:06,620 --> 04:22:13,980
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Aside from the ask for transfer of markings this afternoon, wala naman kayong mga appointment ng Webes at Biyernes, di ba?

1348
04:22:14,600 --> 04:22:15,920
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, can I comment?

1349
04:22:15,920 --> 04:22:17,080
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, counsel for

1350
04:22:17,080 --> 04:22:17,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the respondent.

1351
04:22:17,540 --> 04:23:00,750
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, under the rules, the witness has to identify the document in open court. The problem with their stipulation, Your Honor, is that they will be having the witness identify the documents out of court. So therefore, it is no longer part of the trial. And there is a problem when it comes to the offer. There will be a problem when it comes to their offer of evidence, Your Honor. And with regard to the counter-manifestation or the statement of counsel that We want to, you know, look at the witness while she's flipping the document, Your Honor. Precisely, that is what we are doing right now, Your Honor. So, we object to the proposal that the, you know, the examination of the ARs be done outside the court, Your Honor. Your

1352
04:23:00,750 --> 04:23:55,370
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honor, please. Counsel for Attorney Kapunan, the court views it perhaps as an opportunity to provide an avenue for possible stipulation. As to the ARs that you did not stipulate on, because if I remember correctly, the reason why the ARs presented earlier, the 845, under the witness, Mr. Atty. Wamil, was that the observation of the respondent was it was simply contained in a folder, in a transparency in a folder, and that there was no real sequence to it. So perhaps we can set a date. For possible stipulation on the ARs, not really for the witness to confirm it, but for possible stipulation on the ARs,

1353
04:23:55,370 --> 04:23:56,130
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: if

1354
04:23:56,130 --> 04:23:57,910
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the respondent is open to it.

1355
04:23:58,220 --> 04:24:55,800
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, unfortunately, we will not stipulate, Your Honor. We didn't stipulate in the case of Wamil, Your Honor. The same position is maintained, Your Honor, in the case of this witness, Your Honor, because after the ARs have been submitted to the Commission of Audit, Your Honor, the OVP and the DepEd no longer had control over these ARs. So therefore, we do not know what were the receipts that were provided by the COA and how many receipts were given by the COA to the prosecution, Your Honor. honor. And second, these are not common exhibits because we did not mark those documents or ARs as our own. We didn't adopt them as our own evidence, Your Honor. And third, the ARs that were presented or are being presented now by the prosecution have not been compared with our own copies, Your Honor. So we cannot determine with certainty, Your Honor, if their ARs are actually identical with our copies, Your Honor.

1356
04:24:56,960 --> 04:25:10,400
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Precisely, the opportunity, the court is opening a chance for you to do so, to compare it with your copies of your ARs. Again, if you so desire. I mean, this is only for the purpose of expediting.

1357
04:25:10,520 --> 04:25:11,420
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: If I may, Your Honor.

1358
04:25:11,460 --> 04:25:29,070
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel for respondent, will please respond first before to the query of the presiding officer before I recognize Atty. Kapunan. Yes, Atty. Christine, so you do not want to take the opportunity to compare your copies of the ARs with their copies of the ARs as submitted to COA or as allegedly submitted to COA?

1359
04:25:30,000 --> 04:25:34,480
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, upon discussion with the team, Your Honor, unfortunately we cannot do that.

1360
04:25:34,920 --> 04:25:37,620
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. Atty. Gabunan, what is your pleasure?

1361
04:25:38,650 --> 04:25:54,680
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: With due indulgence, Your Honor, now I will give in to my temptation. First, Your Honor. This, what is happening now, could have been prevented had we done this exercise during the pretrial.

1362
04:25:54,880 --> 04:27:13,950
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: When the clerk of court asked for stipulation on documents, this included stipulations on the acknowledgement receipts. That was the opportune time for the defense counsel to have examined page by page, receipt by receipt, the Reproduction, the faithful reproduction of the COA-AR copies with their own copy, Your Honor. They passed upon this opportunity. Now that we want it done more expeditiously by a motion that I have proposed, which incidentally I wish to amend, that because of their objection to being, it being an out of court, may we amend my motion, Your Honor, that it be done in front of the Clerk of Court, and that the Clerk of Court be duly authorized by authority of the Honorable Impeachment Court to preside over the session, Your Honor. The same way as Clerks of Court, designated officers can mediate between the parties as to a possible amicable settlement or stipulation. And this will be Your Honor, and I'm sorry, I'm seeing... Please

1363
04:27:13,950 --> 04:27:14,630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: continue, counsel.

1364
04:27:15,380 --> 04:27:18,880
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: nodding in acceptance of the motion.

1365
04:27:22,990 --> 04:27:23,710
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: I

1366
04:27:23,710 --> 04:27:29,930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: think quite the opposite, counsel, because he's not looking forward to the workload.

1367
04:27:30,370 --> 04:27:50,950
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: But please proceed. And so, if that is done, Your Honor, then we will be making more efficient use of the time of this honorable court. The marking, the... The identification by this witness, the comparison of both the prosecution markings.

1368
04:27:52,520 --> 04:27:53,000
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: These

1369
04:27:53,000 --> 04:27:55,100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ARs have not been individually marked, counsel?

1370
04:27:56,120 --> 04:27:57,640
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: They have been marked, Your Honor.

1371
04:27:58,160 --> 04:28:01,960
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, for the respondent, you said they were not yet marked, the ones being sold to the witness.

1372
04:28:02,200 --> 04:28:08,220
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: No, Your Honor. They were marked already, Your Honor, but we also have our own marked copies, Your Honor.

1373
04:28:09,480 --> 04:28:12,240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: They were marked, but you also have...

1374
04:28:12,830 --> 04:28:17,990
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: So, meaning, Your Honor, we have separate documents or ARs that were marked, Your Honor.

1375
04:28:18,450 --> 04:30:15,580
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is precisely my point, counsel. That is precisely my point, counsel. Before the Clerk of Court, this is like an extended or additional pre-trial. Perhaps this can be done before the Clerk of Court. You need not stipulate to all, only to those that exactly the same as your copies. It can be 10 out of 845, 844 out of 845. I do not know, really, quite frankly. But we'd rather give you the opportunity than litigate this in open court, piece by piece, similar to the stipulation asked for by the counsel for the panel of prosecutors. In relation to the witness viewing it or looking at it, if it is stipulated, then there is no need for her to actually Perus go through or look at it for long periods of time only with respect to the questioned ones or those not stipulated to by the counsel-respondent. I think the court is inclined to allow for this one more opportunity to stipulate as to the acknowledgement receipts. Again, It is not mandatory. The court is not forcing the counsel for respondent to stipulate on documents they refuse and don't want to stipulate. But since you have your own copies of ARs, and since the issue pertains to the chain of custody, after you submitted it to the COA, then the court would like to afford you the opportunity to compare it. Again, you need not stipulate on anything. You don't have to stipulate on a single one. But the Court would rather give you one more chance, or one more time, to try to do this to save on the Court's time, without prejudice again to the respondent or counsel for respondent.

1376
04:30:15,740 --> 04:30:16,220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes,

1377
04:30:22,320 --> 04:30:26,700
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor. Actually, we will agree to that proposal, Your Honor, but

1378
04:30:28,820 --> 04:30:40,660
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: provided, Your Honor, that we will not be forced to stipulate that the ARs are authentic, etc., and then the date and time, Your Honor, shall be mutually agreed upon by the parties.

1379
04:30:41,400 --> 04:30:42,760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Of course. Of course,

1380
04:30:42,780 --> 04:30:43,880
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, I think...

1381
04:30:43,880 --> 04:30:47,520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Of course, the date and time should be mutually agreed upon between Thursday and Friday.

1382
04:30:48,360 --> 04:30:52,700
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, please, you ask for it.

1383
04:30:52,800 --> 04:31:02,440
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Because in so far as this witness is concerned, give me one date on... One time slot on Thursday and Friday, which you can agree on after we adjourn.

1384
04:31:03,060 --> 04:31:46,580
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, please, if I may add as well. In the marking of this exhibit, Your Honor, before the Honorable Clerk of Court, each acknowledgement receipt had three signatures. The signature of the Clerk of Court, the signature of one of the representatives for the prosecution, and the signature... of the defense counsel, Your Honor, three signatures per document. And now they still want, they had signed each of these acknowledgement receipts, Your Honor. That's number one. Number two, Your Honor, perhaps to restore a level of trust on the side of the defense. Maybe we can even use their own documents.

1385
04:31:49,480 --> 04:32:03,640
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: If they do not trust the prosecution's documents or photocopies of the prosecution's documents, then we will use their documents, Your Honor, because we are certain that their documents is the same as our documents.

1386
04:32:03,940 --> 04:32:05,960
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Let's use the defense documents, Your Honor.

1387
04:32:07,260 --> 04:32:25,120
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: They will not say, we do not trust these documents because it is their own defense documents. Maybe that will solve the problem of this court. We will use your documents, counsel. Will you still question using your own documents? Will you still question the authenticity of your own documents? Of course

1388
04:32:25,120 --> 04:32:25,780
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: not, Your Honor.

1389
04:32:25,780 --> 04:32:27,100
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Then maybe that is

1390
04:32:27,100 --> 04:32:39,790
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: a possible solution, Your Honor. Let us use the defense documents instead of the prosecution documents. Para huwag na tayong mag-compare-compare, Thursday, Friday, manunood pa ako ng Odyssey.

1391
04:32:41,670 --> 04:32:51,590
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'm sorry, counsel. The presiding officer was not yet elected during the pre-trial, hence I did not know what went on during the pre-trial.

1392
04:32:53,490 --> 04:33:09,830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Apparently, the respondent or counsel for respondent has a different purpose and or intention with respect to the ARs. from that of the prosecutor. Therefore, that's why they refuse. A common marking on the same AR.

1393
04:33:10,390 --> 04:33:11,230
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Yes, Your Honor.

1394
04:33:11,390 --> 04:33:20,230
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is that correct? So they have their own set of ARs and you have your own set of ARs that was marked during pretrial. Correct, counsel? That

1395
04:33:20,230 --> 04:33:21,050
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: is correct, Your Honor.

1396
04:33:21,590 --> 04:35:02,220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, all that the court is asking is for an opportunity to be had by the parties once more to compare your respective Mark ARs to be able to distinguish and find out if indeed they are the same or not, regardless of whatever purpose or theory each party may have with respect to presenting the ARs given that they are common exhibits. We will not touch into that, counsel for respondents. So your concern with respect to authenticity and purpose will not be touched on. Only insofar as that it is the same AR that you received, it is the same AR that you sent to the COA that you also have a copy of that they are presenting. And insofar as ARs that you did not send COA or did not come from you, then you can point that out too as the case may be or as may be appropriate. Again, without any pressure nor any mandate from the court for you to stipulate on all, just the opportunity to do so. Kindly agree on a date, counsels, on a time rather between Monday and Thursday. If that is not possible, then we will continue as we have this afternoon. but kindly agree on a date. Court so directs the parties to fix a date and be able to be present before the Clerk of Court to compare the ARs they separately mark and to confirm if indeed which ones are the same and which ones are different for whatever purpose it may serve both parties given that they are commonly marked. So ordered.

1397
04:35:11,970 --> 04:35:39,130
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Court will have to wind up at this point because otherwise we will be continuing with this prolonged marking of evidence which will not only bore the viewing public but the senator-judges as well, the presiding officer and the Senate President included. So we will have to cut it short at this point in time and discuss already some administrative matters before we adjourn in time for our session. Yes, Atty. Gabunan.

1398
04:35:39,270 --> 04:36:29,990
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Just one more ask, Your Honor. Yes, ma'am. Earlier in the proposal for stipulation, Council for Defense kindly, was kind enough to stipulate on certain documents, Your Honor, except for... 10, except for 10 documents, Your Honor. Since this opportunity is given by this Honorable Court to compare, and we understand that their reluctance to stipulate on these 10 documents is because of their claim that it does not faithfully represent the... originals, Your Honor. May we ask also that these ten documents be perused during the period given?

1399
04:36:30,310 --> 04:37:00,830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If only to give it a second chance and a second look given that not much time was given to the counsel for respondents to view it. They were only given 20 minutes. So, yes, the court will allow it to allow the respondents more time to go over it for possible stipulation. Again, no pressure, Attorney Christine. You don't have to if you don't want to. You don't have to if you don't wish to. But the court just wants to give it one more shot to save on the court's time. So ordered.

1400
04:37:01,490 --> 04:37:02,430
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Thank you, Your Honor.

1401
04:37:02,710 --> 04:37:08,090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, before the court makes a ruling on the motion

1402
04:37:09,780 --> 04:37:35,860
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: for judicial notice, the court promised to hear and listen to the counsel for respondents either in writing or orally. I have been informed by the clerk that no responsive pleading was given by the counsel for the respondents. So I guess you will be orally arguing the motion. If

1403
04:37:35,860 --> 04:37:37,320
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I may, Your Honor, please.

1404
04:37:37,340 --> 04:37:44,320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Beforehand, I guess you will be orally arguing on the motion for judicial notice. Counsel? Attorney Christine?

1405
04:37:45,080 --> 04:37:46,260
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: We are ready, Your Honor.

1406
04:37:46,880 --> 04:37:49,200
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, just to hear your side. At this

1407
04:37:49,200 --> 04:37:56,640
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: juncture, Your Honor, I respectfully turn over to our Public Prosecutor and Head Public Prosecutor, Chairman Jinkley.

1408
04:37:57,870 --> 04:38:22,190
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, thank you, Honorable Luistro. Before I recognize you, Ma'am Hylene, you are excused. Sorry po. You are... You are excused but you are ordered without need for the issuance of another subpoena to appear once again before this court on August 10

1409
04:38:24,270 --> 04:38:25,090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and 11.

1410
04:38:26,610 --> 04:38:40,390
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 10. So in open court, you are directed to appear here once again on August 10. We will be issuing another subpoena should we require your presence again on August 11 onwards.

1411
04:38:42,480 --> 04:38:43,600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Do you understand, ma'am?

1412
04:38:44,080 --> 04:38:45,140
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Yes, po, Your Honor.

1413
04:38:45,500 --> 04:38:49,200
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, magpapakita po kayo sa lunes ulit nang wala ng subpoena?

1414
04:38:50,210 --> 04:38:51,310
Cylene May L. Del Campo: Yes, po, Your Honor.

1415
04:38:51,510 --> 04:38:55,950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Salamat po. Your excuse, ma'am. And thank you for your presence and cooperation this afternoon. And your patience.

1416
04:39:00,220 --> 04:39:17,690
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, this won't be oral arguments. The court, the chair just wanted to hear from the counsel for respondents. So, really, this will not be oral arguments between the parties. Yes, what is the position of the... of the Council for Respondent insofar as certain

1417
04:39:20,510 --> 04:39:35,080
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: records of the House, Good Government Committee, and Public Accountability Committees, if I'm not mistaken. Attorney Christine, you'll be arguing?

1418
04:39:35,500 --> 04:39:36,380
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor.

1419
04:39:37,350 --> 04:39:38,970
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, ma'am, when you're ready.

1420
04:39:39,980 --> 04:43:03,900
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. The defense would like to oppose the motion for judicial notice on the following grounds. Number one, the judicial notice rule cannot be taken of disputed matters. Number two, the respondent must be given an opportunity to be heard by way of cross-examination before the court admits in evidence the matters covered by the DSN. TSNs, the video recordings and the committee reports, and number three, the proceedings before the HOR, COJ, were questioned by the respondent before the Supreme Court as a phishing expedition and mini-trial. On the first point, Your Honor, judicial notice cannot be taken of disputed matters. In Juan versus Juan, the Supreme Court defined judicial notice in this wise. Judicial notice is the cognizance of certain facts that judges may properly take and act on without proof because these facts are already known to them. Put differently, it is the assumption of a court of a fact without need of further traditional evidentiary support. The principle is based on convenience and expediency in securing and introducing evidence on matters which are not ordinarily capable of dispute and are not bona fide disputed. While the CGGPA and HORCOJ hearings were made public, we do not dispute that, Your Honor, the matters discussed within them, which were documented via the TSNs, Video recordings and committee reports are not facts automatically admissible in this impeachment trial. Rather, they remain assertions that must be proven by evidence. We note, Your Honor, that Article 1 of the Articles of Impeachment alleges the following, that respondent, Vice President Sara Z. Duterte, committed culpable violation of the Constitution graft and corruption, and betrayed public trust through the systematic misuse, misappropriation, and irregular liquidation of confidential funds amounting to 500 million pesos released to the office of the Vice President. and 112.5 million pesos released to the Department of Education. Clearly, Your Honor, these are not just statement of facts. These are accusations of misuse, misappropriation, and irregular liquidation of confidential funds which must be proven by the prosecution through presentation of evidence. In fact, Your Honor, if you notice, the prosecution in paragraph 1 of its motion for judicial notice admitted that Prior to the transmittal of the articles of impeachment to this honorable court, the House of Representatives, through its Committee on Good Government and Public Accountability and its Committee on Justice, conducted official hearings on matters that ultimately formed the factual basis of Article 1. We highlight that, Your Honor, ultimately formed the factual basis of Article 1, which is the misuse and misappropriation of confidential funds. Article 1 of the Articles of Impeachment, as

1421
04:43:03,900 --> 04:51:23,580
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: a continuation. These proceedings were officially documented through... transcript of stenographic notes or TSNs, official audiovisual recordings, and committee reports. I am just reading, Your Honor, I'm just referring to the motion of the prosecution. Thus, we cannot take the TSNs, the video recordings, and the committee reports as they are, Your Honor, without cross-examining the witnesses of the prosecution. The impeachment court cannot just take the utterances, testimonies, the questions and answers, and the interpolations during the COJ and the CGGPA hearings as factual findings and statements of truth without going through the usual route of evidence presentation. In fact, Your Honor, we are even unsure whether these videos are spliced, edited, or shortened, with your respect, and whether the TSNs are accurate. and edited or modified as portions of the TSNs turned out to be different to our transcribed notes which leads me, actually, Your Honor, to my second point. That because the matters covered by the pieces of evidence, Your Honor, which the prosecution would like this court to take judicial notice are exactly the matters that are being heard before this impeachment court. The respondent must be given an opportunity to be heard by way of cross-examination before the court admits in evidence the TSNs, the video recordings, and the committee reports. The requirement of due process is basic. It is the opportunity to be heard before the court. And affording the respondent the opportunity to cross-examine the authenticating witness serves a dual purpose, Your Honor. First, It validates the existence of the video recordings, the TSNs, and the committee report. And second, it verifies their accuracy and completeness. The Constitution explicitly guarantees the respondent's right to ensure that these pieces of evidence have not been altered, edited, or modified to fit the prosecution's narrative of Article 1. Consequently, the respondent is fully entitled to have all the observations, the objections, and cross-examination questions placed on record before the court admits these documents in evidence. It is also a matter of record, Your Honor, that the videos that the prosecution would like this court to take judicial notice were not played during the pre-trial conference, Your Honor, and it is with the understanding between the parties that there shall be subjected to proper authentication and identification during trial consistent with the rules of court. And third, the respondent has directly challenged the House of Representatives Committee on Justice. proceedings before the Supreme Court, Your Honor, characterizing them as a mere fishing expedition and an authorized mini-trial, Your Honor. Consequently, the respondent declined to participate in these proceedings, maintaining that the HORCOJ lacks the jurisdiction to conduct these trials. Under Article 9, Section 3, Paragraph 6 of the Constitution, the respondent submits that that exclusive power and authority is vested solely in the Senate, Your Honor. That's why a petition for certiorari and prohibition was filed by the respondent before the Supreme Court. So we cannot stipulate, Your Honor, on the matters that were taken up in a proceeding that the respondent challenged before the Supreme Court. But crucially, Your Honor, the petition pending before the Supreme Court challenges the proceedings before the HORCOJ only and not the actions of the Honorable Impeachment Court. This distinction, however, does not preclude any future legal challenges against actions that this court may take while sitting as an impeachment court. The respondent, Your Honor, was consistent. In her position, Your Honor. In fact, in a letter dated March 24, 2026, the respondent through counsel informed the HORCOJ that she cannot attend the mini-trial and the phishing expedition being done by the said committee because of the committee's apparent lack of authority under the Constitution. The closing paragraphs of the letter state, and I will read the closing paragraphs for the record. In light of this, while the invitation for the respondent and counsel to participate in the committee's mini-trial is well noted, we cannot, however, do so at this point on the ground that the committee and the H.O.R., as well as any of its members, lack jurisdiction to conduct any form of trial or exercise any of its incidents. Absent such jurisdiction, any attempt to proceed in the nature of any form of trial or invoke powers ancillary to it is unconstitutional. Consequently, the respondent puts on record her objection to any requests, motions, or similar efforts aimed at obtaining or fishing for supposed evidence through processes that necessarily presuppose the existence of lawful authority and jurisdiction under the Constitution, which in this case is absent. As timely stated in the appearance and consolidated answer, both made ad cutellam, the respondent does not waive any jurisdictional or other objections she has to these proceedings nor her right to seek the appropriate legal remedies. Nonetheless, she is prepared to meet the charges against her in proper jurisdiction. And because of that, Your Honor, the court must decline to take judicial notice because the very validity and authority of the The House of Representatives' COJ proceedings are currently challenged before the Supreme Court. Now, on closing, Your Honor, on its face, actually, the motion may look like a plea for this honorable court to take judicial notice of the purported official legislative acts described by the prosecution. However, Your Honor, if you really examine the motion, Your Honor, in reality, however, the motion actually is actually akin to a public prosecutor, the House of Representatives, asking the criminal court, here the impeachment court, to take judicial notice of the complaint that was filed before the fiscal, here the HORCOJ, and all matters related thereto, including those that transpired during the preliminary investigation without the need of for presenting witnesses in court. That is actually what the prosecution is doing in our view, Your Honor. Dahil ang mga pandinig na ito sa House of Representatives ay siya mismong paksa ng paglilitis ng hukumang ito at ayon mismo sa prosecution, those hearings became the factual basis for Article 1 of the Articles of Impeachment, nararapat lamang po na ang mga TSNs, video recordings at committee reports na naglalaman ng mga tanong ng kongresista, pati Pati na ang mga pahayag at sagot ng mga testigo ay patunayan ng prosecution sa pamamagitan ng pagpresenta ng testigo upang magpatunay sa katotohanan ng mga ito. In closing, Your Honor, would like to quote the Supreme Court in Juan v. Juan. The article, the Supreme Court said, the article in the website cited by the RTC patently lacks a requisite for it to be of judicial notice. to the court because such article is not well and authoritatively settled and is doubtful or uncertain. It must be remembered that some articles appearing on the internet or websites are easily edited and their sources are unverifiable. Thus, sole reliance on those articles is greatly discouraged.

1422
04:51:24,000 --> 04:51:28,780
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The defense opposes the motion, Your Honor, on identical grounds. Salamat po.

1423
04:51:30,240 --> 04:51:32,220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, these are not all arguments, counsel.

1424
04:51:33,800 --> 04:51:42,600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair had anticipated the position of the counsel-respondent. In fact, Chair would like to clarify. The one-versus-one case is the Lavandera-Co case, right?

1425
04:51:42,700 --> 04:51:43,280
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor.

1426
04:51:43,660 --> 04:51:53,100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ito yung Lavandera-Co na kumpanya na nireklamo violating copyright standards. Hindi ba na nagjudicial notice yung Korte sa isang internet website na may copyright na yan?

1427
04:51:53,380 --> 04:51:54,020
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Tama po.

1428
04:51:54,140 --> 04:52:09,850
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is the case. Okay. Chair will now make its ruling. First, with respect to the motion to set the conference for marking, objected to by respondents insofar as number 3 is concerned.

1429
04:52:12,150 --> 04:52:20,710
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: P4-35 to P4-35B, but did not object to the others. So the request for transfer of markings this afternoon.

1430
04:52:22,420 --> 04:53:00,690
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Insofar as the unobjected portions are granted, insofar as the objected portions are concerned, chair will make a ruling. We will furnish the respondent and the prosecution with a copy, with a written copy of the ruling through the journal of this court. The chair will now resolve the panel of prosecutors' motion to set the conference for the transfer of exhibit markings, particularly on exhibits P-4-35. to P-4-35A and P-4-35B, which refer to the portions of the purported affidavit of Arturo Lascañas.

1431
04:53:02,610 --> 04:57:03,160
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And after considering the objections of the chair of the respondent, the objection is hereby denied subject to the following guidelines. and reasonings. Section 34, Rule 132 of the Rules of Court provide the court shall consider no evidence which has not been presented or formally offered. The purpose for which the evidence is offered must be specified accordingly. The marking, identification, or authentication of a document does not mean that the document has been formally offered or admitted for the purpose it was so stated. The physical transfer of an exhibit designation from a provisional copy to its corresponding original or certified true copy is even more limited. It is a mechanical and ministerial act intended only to maintain the orderly identification of the Court's records. The respondent is not prejudiced by this transfer. The transfer does not alter the substance or evidentiary status of the document . It does not constitute a ruling on the authenticity, admissibility, or evidentiary weight and it does not enlarge the purpose for which the document was originally marked. The respondent therefore loses no substantive or procedural right by reason of the transfer and may raise all appropriate objections when the document is formally offered. This conclusion is consistent with the prosecution's own representation during the July 21, 2026 hearing wherein the Honorable Luistro stated, quote, Your Honor, the document is being presented only to seek confirmation from the witness. that he is referring to this particular document as part of the investigation of the Special Task Force. We are not presenting it to prove the truthfulness of the contents of the affidavit. The Chair likewise previously ruled, quote, Again, this is only as to the fact that this is what the NBI used in their open investigation and coming up with their findings, not as to the truth of the statements being read by Director Matibag. Close quotation. The Chair further clarified on even date, July 21, 2026. The Chair will cut short any further identifications of the witness in regard to this affidavit. This is only as to the fact that Las Cañas executed a document that they used in their open source investigation, not as to the truth of what was said. The limitations remain controlling even after the transfer of the marking of this exhibit to a certified true copy. Exhibits P-4-35, 35A, and 35B remain merely independently relevant statements only to establish that the document came to the attention of and was used by the NBI in its investigation. It may not be used as proof of the truth of the allegations stated therein. As stated in Espinelli v. People, GR No. 79-535, dated 6-9-14, when the relevant fact is merely that a statement was made, the hearsay rule does not bar proof of that fact, regardless of the statement's truth or falsity. Finally, the transfer of the markings does not cure the defects already placed on the record. The purported affidavit remains unsigned unauthorized and not made under oath with no witness having attested to its execution and truth of its contents. The contents of the affidavit at this time remain hearsay, the transfer of the markings notwithstanding to a certified true copy of that document. Accordingly, the Clerk of the Impeachment Court is directed to set the requested conference as requested I think this afternoon. If I'm not mistaken, at 4 p.m. Now, the motion for judicial notice. The chair will make a ruling, will grant the motion with a reminder, a stern reminder and warning.

1432
04:57:06,030 --> 04:57:21,630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The court acting on the motion for judicial notice dated August 3, seeking judicial notice of the existence and official character of the hearings and the corresponding transcripts or judicial recordings and the committee report identified therein.

1433
04:57:23,430 --> 04:59:23,030
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Section 1, Rule 129 of the Rules Provide, a court shall take judicial notice without need of the introduction of evidence of legislative, executive, and judicial departments of the National Government of the Philippines. As stated in CLT, the case cited by the counsel for the prosecutors, there is such, referring to a Senate Committee report, The court took judicial notice of the Senate committee report but only as to the existence of the committee report and not as to the content and truth of what was stated in the committee report. Therefore, accordingly, the court grants the requested judicial notice to be taken by the court but solely and exclusively limited to the following facts. Number one, that the legislative hearings were actually held. and under the official function of the House of Representatives Committee on Good Government and Public Accountability and the Committee on Justice. So to reiterate, just as to the factual existence that the hearings were indeed conducted. Number two, that the corresponding transcripts, official audiovisual recordings and committee report exist. As official records of the proceedings and in a separate rule, therefore enjoy the regularity of official proceedings absent contrary proof that there is either fraud, falsity, or inaccuracy, therefore which will overcome the presumption of regularity. With a warning. Having granted the motion, only within the foregoing limits, the chair now states in unmistakable terms the precise effect of this ruling and reminds the prosecution, and should the time come, also the respondent, if they happen to cross this line also, Rule

1434
04:59:24,760 --> 05:01:00,150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 129 is captioned, What need not be proved. Therefore, the court states with precision what the prosecution need not prove, only with respect to those two things. Nothing else is judicially admitted or established. The prosecution is therefore expressly reminded that judicial notice shall not be used as a vehicle to place into the record substantive contents of the transcripts, recordings, or committee reports. It is not a substitute for the presentation and formal offer of competent evidence, nor does it dispense with the applicable rules on authentication, hearsay, relevance, and the right of the respondent to object and confront the evidence presented against her. As the Supreme Court held in Magkamit v. IAS, PIDEA, GR No. 19-8-140-125-16, fair play requires. that the respondent be given meaningful opportunity to rebut all the evidence presented against her. Therefore, consistent with the Chair's prior ruling on July 21 in relation to the Las Cañas document, a witness will not hereafter be allowed to read in open court a third-party statement that is not his or her own, as the respondent would be denied the opportunity to rebut those statements and cross-examine. The statements made by a third party.

1435
05:01:02,610 --> 05:01:49,280
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, to reiterate, the court does not take judicial notice of the truth of any statement made during the hearings, the correctness of any factual allegation, or the validity of any finding or conclusion in the committee report. Those matters remain subject to proof, objection, and the court's independent evaluation of their admissibility and or evidentiary weight at the proper time. The prosecution shall not represent expressly or impliedly that this ruling establishes the truth of any matter contained in the identified records. Any attempt to use this judicial notice given for that purpose shall be rejected by this court and the parties accordingly shall be duly reminded in course. So there being

1436
05:01:50,880 --> 05:01:57,750
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: no lead prosecutor, your witnesses for next week before we call it a day. A rainy day.

1437
05:01:58,070 --> 05:02:05,410
Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Your Honor, we would like to submit the name of the following witnesses for next week. That is August 11, August 12, and August 13.

1438
05:02:08,910 --> 05:02:10,950
Atty. Antonio Eduardo B. Capistrano: August 10, 11, and 12.

1439
05:02:12,560 --> 05:02:45,600
Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: One, of course, is Cylene May L. Del Campo from Coahuilco, our supposed witness today. Two is Marivic Pareja from Legislative Information Resources Management Department of the House of Representatives. Three is Gina S. Acosta, former Special Disbursing Officer of the Office of the Vice President. And the fourth, Your Honor, is Edward D. Fajarda, former Special Disbursing Officer of the Department of Education. That is all, Your Honor.

1440
05:02:46,660 --> 05:03:19,570
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let the responding subpoenas requested at testificandum and or dosis tecum as the case may be issued to the aforementioned witnesses for the dates and times given and requested by the lead prosecutor for the impeachment trial next week. Again, counsel, just a reminder, if you will be having documents that you would want opposing counsel to stipulate on, kindly give them a copy. at least a day before so that they can already manifest in open court their agreement or disagreement with the proposed stipulation.

1441
05:03:21,410 --> 05:03:23,710
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel? Yes?

1442
05:03:24,330 --> 05:03:25,070
Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: We confirm,

1443
05:03:25,250 --> 05:03:25,570
Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Your Honor.

1444
05:03:25,770 --> 05:03:28,970
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Any other matter you wish to mention, Attorney Christine?

1445
05:03:29,410 --> 05:03:30,590
Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: None from my end, Your Honor.

1446
05:03:30,910 --> 05:03:32,910
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before the chair adjourns,

1447
05:03:37,630 --> 05:03:42,150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: there

1448
05:03:43,400 --> 05:03:47,620
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: being no other business to be taken up by the impeachment court at this time,

1449
05:03:49,420 --> 05:03:56,060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The trial is hereby adjourned until 10 am of Monday, August 10, 2026.

1450
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:49,570
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Huwamil po. Magandang umaga, Your Honor. Yes.

1451
00:22:50,650 --> 00:23:06,360
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Nabanggit nyo sa inyong testimonyo kahapon at nung isang araw na yung tinatawag na supporting documents kasama dyan ay either sales invoice o official receipts. Tama?

1452
00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:07,140
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

1453
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:12,590
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. Let me backtrack a bit. 10 years kang nasa ICPAU, tama?

1454
00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:15,110
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor. Almost 10 years po.

1455
00:23:15,210 --> 00:23:23,170
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, without mentioning the agencies, ilang agencies nag-gumberno ang na-audit mo tungkol sa confidential funds?

1456
00:24:11,630 --> 00:24:12,270
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ni isa?

1457
00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:14,830
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Acknowledgement receipts lang po yung sinabit sa amin.

1458
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:19,050
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

1459
00:24:19,290 --> 00:24:47,150
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, ni isa dun sa mga ginastos, walang official receipt at walang sales invoice? Yes po, Your Honor. Okay. Sa karanasan mo sa tatlong pong mga ahensya, masasabi mo ba na Yung findings ninyo dito sa OVP ay similar o standard ba? O nangyayari rin yung ganong walang official receipt at walang sales invoice sa mga liquidation?

1460
01:11:27,290 --> 01:11:31,250
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes sir, it was a typo error po. 69,787,000 pesos.

1461
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,960
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa pagkakalala ko, around 73 million pesos po, Your Honor.

1462
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:35,780
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So out of 125 million, 73 million lang yung finally dinisallow ng COA doon sa Notice of Disallowance. Yung balanse, inoke niya.

1463
01:14:49,830 --> 01:14:53,590
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, wala, saan po nakalagay sa AOM na may demand kayo?

1464
01:14:53,870 --> 01:14:58,790
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Kasi nirequire po namin sila na to comply with the submission po of the documents.

1465
01:15:08,990 --> 01:15:11,810
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Does the notice of suspension include a demand to pay?

1466
01:20:41,730 --> 01:20:43,610
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, that's unusual?

1467
01:20:45,990 --> 01:20:47,390
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: No further questions, Mr. President.

1468
01:17:24,320 --> 01:17:25,140
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Malamang po,

1469
01:18:47,440 --> 01:18:47,960
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay.

1470
01:18:48,060 --> 01:18:51,040
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Pero that's unusual po, pero I wouldn't know if it is irregular since

1471
01:18:51,980 --> 01:19:00,740
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, we come back to the term unusual. Okay. So, this is unusual. Doon sa nabaglit mo kahapon,

1472
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:46,360
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: In other words, an audit query would be a violation of the Joint Circular, tama?

1473
01:21:26,780 --> 01:21:28,300
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: There is a presumption po, Your Honor.

1474
01:21:28,580 --> 01:21:44,930
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. And hindi lamang ito para sa opisina ni OVP, di ba? I'm sure sa tagal mo, sa iyong karanasan bilang investigator ng COA, ganito din ang findings mo sa maraming mga ahensya.

1475
01:21:56,770 --> 01:21:57,450
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, po, Your Honor.

1476
01:21:57,750 --> 01:22:16,360
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yeah, the reason why I'm taking this up at gusto ko pong tanuhin po ang ating witness is sa iyong eksperyensya, dahil sa lack of accountability, using confidential funds as a excuse na nagkakaroon ng abuso at corruption. dito sa pondong ito.

1477
01:22:49,770 --> 01:22:50,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes, Your Honor.

1478
01:22:51,050 --> 01:23:02,710
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Dito po sa case ni OVP, sa Office of the Vice President, meron ba ganung klaseng plano? Meron ba ganung klaseng accounted use of the funds?

1479
01:24:58,820 --> 01:25:00,120
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi po, Your Honor.

1480
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:02,040
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Hindi po?

1481
01:40:02,530 --> 01:40:03,530
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: The auditor po.

1482
01:40:03,810 --> 01:40:06,800
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Which is ikaw in this case. Tama?

1483
01:40:24,430 --> 01:40:25,110
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes po, Your Honor.

1484
01:40:25,330 --> 01:40:36,230
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. And dahil tinitignan ko, parang mayroon naman certification, but I want to understand bakit hindi siya pumasok doon sa hinihingi mong dokumento. Hindi

1485
01:42:34,890 --> 01:42:35,970
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Wala po. Wala pong indication.

1486
01:43:30,160 --> 01:43:37,900
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, but your appreciation is, totoong tao ito. Kasi may pirma. Tama ba? Lahat ba ng AR may pirma?

1487
01:43:38,660 --> 01:43:41,540
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Sa pagkakaalam ko po ay meron naman po.

1488
01:43:41,720 --> 01:43:50,970
Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So kung alias, at di ko naman pangalan to, pipirmahan ko pa rin? Or pag alias ba eh, dapat wala ng pirma?

1489
01:44:35,070 --> 01:44:43,390
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: May clarify po kung ano pa yung next level po. So from AOM to NS, and NS to ND. and ND to referral to OMB.

1490
01:59:22,820 --> 01:59:23,220
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Yes.

1491
01:59:23,240 --> 01:59:26,500
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Noong mga panahon na pumunta sila sa inyong tanggapan, pinanganak na

1492
01:59:28,160 --> 01:59:28,760
Atty. Roderick C. Wamil: Hindi pa.

1493
01:59:30,260 --> 01:59:31,620
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Meron na bang Grace Piatos noon?

1494
01:59:35,640 --> 01:59:36,080
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay.

1495
02:00:10,400 --> 02:00:10,880
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay.