1 00:05:35,380 --> 00:05:35,440 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: ... 2 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,880 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: The Senate President, the Presiding Officer, and the Senator-Judges of the Impeachment Court. 3 00:06:10,460 --> 00:06:18,000 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The Sergeant 4 00:06:20,150 --> 00:06:22,090 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: at Arms is directed to make a proclamation. 5 00:06:23,500 --> 00:06:33,210 Alfredo Sotto Corpuz: All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty. while the impeachment court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte. 6 00:06:34,260 --> 00:06:42,960 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: The impeachment trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator-Judge Mark Villar. 7 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,200 Sen. Mark A. Villar: Let us put ourselves in the presence of God. 8 00:06:58,830 --> 00:07:50,140 Sen. Mark A. Villar: Heavenly Father, we come before You today seeking Your guidance and wisdom. Align our hearts with Yours and our plans with Your purpose. Grant us the wisdom to discern absolute truth from partisan noise. We ask for that generous wisdom, Lord, so we can make decisions that reflect Your love and justice. Clear our minds so that we can make fair and righteous rulings in this impeachment trial. May we always lean on Your understanding and not our own. Provide us with the courage to rule with strict impartiality, ensuring fairness to both the accused and the people we serve. May our decisions honor the Constitution, uphold the rule of law, and preserve the integrity of our nation. Guide us in humility, compassion, and integrity as we serve, knowing that we are accountable to You above all. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. 9 00:08:09,740 --> 00:08:37,880 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: senator-judge, Lacson, senator-judge, Lapid, senator-judge, Legarda, senator-judge, Marcoleta, senator-judge, Marcos, senator-judge, Padilla, senator-judge, Pangilinan, senator-judge, Sotto III, senator-judge, Erwin Tulfo, senator-judge, Raffy Tulfo, senator-judge, Villanueva, senator-judge, Camille Villar, senator-judge, Mark Villar, senator-judge, Zubiri, the presiding officer, senator-judge, Escudero, the senate president, senator-judge, Gatchalian. 10 00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:42,680 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 17 senator-judges present, the chair declares the presence of a quorum. 11 00:08:44,820 --> 00:08:45,680 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: In accordance 12 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:56,320 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: with the rules of procedure on impeachment trials, the chair now recognizes the duly elected presiding officer to preside over the proceedings of the impeachment court. 13 00:08:59,140 --> 00:09:04,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Mr. Senate President. If there are no objections, we shall dispense with the reading 14 00:09:04,980 --> 00:09:09,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: of the August 25, 2026 Journal of the Senate, sitting as an impeachment 15 00:09:09,020 --> 00:09:12,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: court, and shall consider the same. as approved. 16 00:09:16,170 --> 00:09:19,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Clerk of Court will please call the case before the Impeachment Court. 17 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly turn on the mic of the Clerk of Court. 18 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:29,500 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Case number 004-2026 in the matter of Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman, Duterte. 19 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:31,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Appearances for the parties. 20 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,300 Rep. Joel R. Chua: Same appearance. For the prosecution, Your Honor, we are ready. 21 00:09:36,580 --> 00:09:40,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good morning, Honorable Chua. For the respondent. 22 00:09:40,410 --> 00:09:42,970 Atty. Michael Wesley Poa: Same appearance for the respondent accused. Good morning, Your Honors. 23 00:09:43,250 --> 00:09:45,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Good morning, Attorney Poa. 24 00:09:45,710 --> 00:09:49,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As discussed yesterday by the Presiding Officer, we shall 25 00:09:49,070 --> 00:10:14,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: begin with a brief reply of Attorney Ligutan before the Court's ruling with respect to the points raised by the lead counsel for the respondent and some other matters that pertain similarly to that topic and then proceed with the cross-examination of Attorney Kristine and the redirect and or recross, if any. 26 00:10:15,150 --> 00:10:16,650 Rep. Joel R. Chua: Your Honor. Yes, 27 00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:17,470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honorable Chua. 28 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:21,250 Rep. Joel R. Chua: I will now turn over to Atty. Ligutan for his brief reply. 29 00:10:21,830 --> 00:10:28,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ligutan is recognized for his hopefully brief reply. Yes, Atty. Bawa. 30 00:10:28,910 --> 00:11:03,890 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Just before we give Atty. Ligutan his time, Your Honor, I just wanted to make a quick manifestation. It was just brought to our attention yesterday that after the proceedings that we had yesterday that an interview was given wherein I think What was discussed yesterday about the word scam, etc. was repeated during an interview. Now, while it may have been stated in a matter that's sort of a matter of factly, we do hope that this will be included in the ruling of the Honorable Presiding Officer. At least for guidance. Thank 31 00:11:03,890 --> 00:11:05,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, 32 00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:05,270 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Your Honor. 33 00:11:05,450 --> 00:11:06,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Atty. Ligutan. 34 00:11:14,060 --> 00:11:24,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. With respect to your, shall I call it, counter-manifestation. It is brief, Your Honor. Thank you, Attorney Ligutan. You may proceed. 35 00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:38,560 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: A teacher, a lawyer, a rule on cross-examination, a Facebook post. How did we get here? 36 00:11:41,420 --> 00:11:46,840 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Last August 12, before trial was adjourned, it was a Wednesday. 37 00:11:48,650 --> 00:12:05,150 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Out of the blue, the defense. Made a manifestation, or should I say, a big issue of my Facebook post earlier that morning. My post reads, 38 00:12:07,910 --> 00:12:11,950 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: A principle all lawyers and law students know by heart. 39 00:12:13,930 --> 00:12:22,520 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Misleading questions are not allowed, even on cross-examination. Period. 40 00:12:25,460 --> 00:12:42,260 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The defense remarked, it is a reaction To that viral exchange between the opposing counsel that morning, a lawyer for the defense said, in effect, that misleading questions are allowed. 41 00:12:44,170 --> 00:13:20,690 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: We all heard it. It immediately caused an uproar on social media, especially in the legal community where it is a well-entrenched rule that misleading questions are not allowed even on cross-examination. It is a truism as irrefutable as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west. It is a principle all lawyers and law students should know by heart. 42 00:13:22,990 --> 00:13:25,350 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: But why post it on Facebook? 43 00:13:26,930 --> 00:13:29,980 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honors, why not? 44 00:13:32,330 --> 00:13:33,950 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Yes, I am a lawyer. 45 00:13:35,670 --> 00:13:43,240 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: But more than just a lawyer, first and foremost, I am a teacher. 46 00:13:45,160 --> 00:14:01,950 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Isa po akong guro, usako ka maestro, and I'm proud to be one. I have been a lawyer for almost 16 years, but I have been a teacher, an educator for almost 20. 47 00:14:03,490 --> 00:14:43,560 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: At alam ng ating mga magigiting na guro, sa buong kapuloan, na ang pagtuturo ay likas sa ating mga guro. Ang pagtuturo, ang pagtatama ng mali, ay walang pinipiling lugar at walang pinipiling panahon. That's why I made that post. I was concerned that the statement made in open court that misleading questions are allowed will go unchecked. My teacher's instinct kicked in. I 48 00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:49,690 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: wanted the students I left in Cebu especially. 49 00:14:51,210 --> 00:15:31,040 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: In the University of San Jose-Recoletos School of Law, where I have been teaching for the past 15 years, and recently in the University of Cebu School of Law, and in Diliman, my alma mater, the University of the Philippines College of Law, and all law students out there, I want them to know that a teacher had heard that wrong statement in open court and he is correcting that mistake. On Facebook, as I have been doing the past years. To the defense, I shall not name names. I will not put you on the spot. 50 00:15:33,590 --> 00:15:49,970 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: But the post is not about you. It's not personal. It is about the law that we all adhere to. It is about what we teach the public who are watching our trial. 51 00:15:51,910 --> 00:16:12,930 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Correcting a mistake is never wrong. Doing it while a hearing is ongoing online does not make it not right. Ang pagtatama ng mali ay kailanman hindi ipinagbabawal kahit sa loob ng impeachment court na ito. 52 00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:33,740 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now the defense said they found it troubling or in bad taste for a prosecution lawyer like me to quote, do this, unquote. in the middle of a courtroom hearing. But do what? Correct a wrong? 53 00:16:35,400 --> 00:17:15,690 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: On the contrary, Your Honors, what is more troubling is for the defense not to admit their mistake and instead call out a lawyer, a teacher who just stated what is correct in his own time and in his own. Facebook account. What is troubling is if we turn a correction of a mistake by one side into a shield from fair criticism for the other. 54 00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:27,120 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now the defense is asking this court to act on my post. It is elevating it to a serious courtroom violation. 55 00:17:29,060 --> 00:17:57,660 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: But what did I violate? I did not discuss the merits of the case. I did not discuss the strength or the weakness of the oral arguments or evidence of either side. I only stated without mentioning any name, using the most neutral of font color and background, black and grey, without adding any emoticon, 56 00:17:59,990 --> 00:18:18,380 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: without splicing anything. What the rules of procedure simply provide. that misleading questions are not allowed even on cross-examination. Your Honors, we in the prosecution also have rights. 57 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:41,360 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: I, for one, did not surrender my freedom to teach and to enlighten when I decided to participate in this trial. Patuloy po ako magiging guro kahit sa loob. nag-impeachment court na ito. 58 00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:56,070 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Lastly, Your Honors, the defense mentioned humility that I should have been humble enough not to post that now viral statement. 59 00:18:58,670 --> 00:19:15,130 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honors, being a Provinciano from Leyte, Samar, and Cebu, and coming from a middle-income family born without a famous family name, 60 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:32,430 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: who had to compete for his spot in this capital. I know a thing or two about humility. The defense cannot lecture me on humility. 61 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:43,630 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: If there's somebody who needs to be reminded about humility, it's them, the defense. 62 00:19:46,960 --> 00:20:06,430 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: It is the opposite of humility. It is pride, not to admit a mistake or worse, call out someone who simply corrected that mistake. 63 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:09,860 Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Good morning. 64 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That does not fall under my definition of brief counsel, but we will take it nevertheless. 65 00:20:19,310 --> 00:20:27,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the record, before the chair makes its ruling on these matters, the TSN says, Attorney Kapunan, 66 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:37,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: leading And then she corrected herself, misleading questions are not allowed on cross. 67 00:20:38,170 --> 00:21:07,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Ferrer, she said they are allowed. Now, the TSN cannot possibly cover the overlapping voices if at all. So most likely what happened, although we will check the video, would be Attorney Ferrer commenting on the earlier statement that was corrected later on by attorney Kapunan and changed leading to misleading. Perhaps attorney Ferrer was referring to leading 68 00:21:08,860 --> 00:21:31,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: questions and not misleading questions. But having said that, nevertheless, the court will include that as part of its ruling with one caveat, attorney Ligutan. While you do not remove Your hat as a teacher wherever you go. The same is true with this representation who had my fair share of teaching as well. 69 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:51,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Under the rules of the Senate, unfortunately, you have to unbundle it. You have to decouple it. Under the rules of the Senate, if you are counsel for the parties, you cannot comment on the merits outside of a fair and true report of what happened. 70 00:21:52,470 --> 00:22:11,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In this case, based on the TSN, I am not sure of the accuracy given that the statements made were pertained to both leading and misleading questions. Number two, it still does not take away. Your being a teacher does not take away your responsibility under the CPRA to 71 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:20,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: a fellow lawyer who you are jousting with or arguing with or competing against. This impeachment 72 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:21,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: court. 73 00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:31,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The remarks of the good gentleman, the attorney Ligutan, the counsel for the panel of prosecutors, is noted and will be entered into the records. 74 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, sir. Chair will now make its ruling with the permission of 75 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the body from the restroom because it's difficult to read while sitting down a long ruling. 76 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,380 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may sit down, attorney Chua, for a bit. This will take some time. 77 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of the senator-judges. The Chair wishes to address certain matters as it is necessary 78 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:13,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to protect the integrity of this trial. It has come to the Chair's attention over time that public statements attributed to persons covered by the Rules of Impeachment, whether made in interviews or in social media, appear to concern the evidence, the credibility of witnesses, and issues pending before this Court, which may fall within 79 00:23:13,930 --> 00:23:15,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the prohibition under 80 00:23:15,450 --> 00:26:24,340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Rule 18 of this Court. Although the immediate matter arose from statements and conduct involving respective counsel last August 12, it raises broader concerns affecting the impartiality, decorum, and integrity of the impeachment court. Before imposing or enforcing standards of restraint upon the parties and their own counsel, the court must first look inward and put its own house in order. The Chair shall therefore resolve these matters in three parts. First, the duties of impartiality and decorum incumbent upon senator-judges. Second, the scope, coverage, and prospective enforcement of Rule 18. Third, the specific guidelines governing compliance with Rule 18. First, senator-judges impartiality, decorum, and the internal remedy. The chair begins where institutional discipline must always begin, with the court itself. The restraint, impartiality, and decorum demanded of the parties and their counsel must first be exemplified by those who sit in judgment. As senator-judges, let us keep in mind our oath, quote, to do impartial justice according to the Constitution and the laws of the Philippines, close quotations, and the requirement under Rule 3 of the Rules of Impeachment to observe political neutrality therein defined as, quote, The exercise of a public's official duty without unfair discrimination and regardless of party affiliation or preference. The chair likewise cites the relevant provisions of the 2025 Code of Judicial Conduct and Accountability or CPRA on impartiality and the subjudice rule. Canon 3, Section 10 provides, quote, During dependency of a case, a judge shall not knowingly make any comment in and out of court that could reasonably be expected or perceived to affect its outcome, impair the fairness of the process, or diminish the public's confidence in the court's impartiality. Canon 4, Section 24 provides, quote, A judge shall not engage or use any form of expression which tends to violate. or has the effect of violating the subjudice principle, provoke or inflame divisive and contentious issues of public concern, or project an image not compatible with the dignity of their position. Taken as a whole, these principles remind us of our duty to preserve the impartiality of this Court and the fairness of these proceedings. As the Court said in People v. Court of Appeals, GR No. 118882, This court has repeatedly and consistently demanded, quote, the cold neutrality of an impartial judge as the indispensable imperative of due process. Judicial proceedings are not orchestrated plays in which the parties are supposed to make motions and reach the denouncement according to a prepared script. There is no writer to foreordain the ending. Close quotation. 81 00:26:31,200 --> 00:35:04,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: A judge must not only be impartial, but must also appear to be impartial, as an added assurance to the parties that his decision will be just. Litigants are entitled to no less than that. For avoidance of doubt, this shall not prevent senator-judges from examining the evidence where the examination belongs, during the proceedings, and on the record. The Supreme Court in People v. Gambor, GR 152183, said, The trial judge is accorded a reasonable leeway in putting such questions to witnesses as may be essential to elicit relevant facts, to make the record speak the truth. A judge may examine or cross-examine a witness. He may propound questions to test the credibility of the witness and to extract the truth. He may seek to draw out relevant and material testimony. though that testimony may tend to support or rebut the position taken by one or the other party. It cannot be taken against him if the clarificatory questions he propounds happen to reveal certain truths which tend to destroy the theory of one party. Taken together, Rule 17 and the Gambor case confirm. that a searching question is not partial merely because the answer may aid one side or weaken the other. The prosecution and the Respondents' Council must be prepared to answer such questions. The inquiry must remain relevant, material, fair, and directed toward clarification of truth. It must not devolve into a speech, harassment, partisan advocacy, or an announcement of a conclusion already reached. The line is clear. Senator-judges may test the evidence here under oath and on the record, exercising the cold neutrality of an impartial judge. When constituted as an impeachment court, the Senate does not cast aside the discipline of parliamentary practice, except where the specific rules on impeachment or the adjudicative nature of these proceedings require otherwise. The rules of the Senate establish parliamentary precedents and courtesies of the Chamber continue to bind every member sitting as senator-judge under Rule 34, Sections 93 and 94 of the Rules of the Senate. Deem acts or language that offend a senator or any public institution or third party to be unparliamentary and prohibit the use of offensive and improper language against another senator or public institution or third party. Henceforth, I hope senator-judges shall refrain from unparliamentary remarks, personal attacks, imputations of improper motive, and other language incompatible with the dignity of these proceedings and of parliamentary courtesy to other people. The Chair will at all times extend to his fellow senator-judges the courtesy, befitting equals, and reasonable latitude that serious deliberation requires. Differences in judgments and vigor in debate are to be expected. and shall as far as practicable be met with patience, flexibility, and respect. Should circumstance so require, however, the Chair will not hesitate to enforce the rules of this Impeachment Court, the rules of the Senate, particularly sections 95 and 96 in this Chamber. Firmness need not be unkind, nor courtesy come at the expense of duty. Both serve the same end, the fair and honorable administration of justice. Further, where a senator-judge is alleged to have violated the impeachment oath, Rule 3, Rule 18, or any other applicable rule of the Senate. An available institutional remedy within the Senate is the filing or referral of an ethics complaint to the Senate Committee on Ethics and Privileges in accordance with the internal rules of the Senate. Under Rule 10, Section 1316 of the Rules of the Senate, the Committee on Ethics has jurisdiction over all matters relating to the conduct, rights, privileges, safety, dignity, integrity, and reputation of the Senate and its members. Any disciplinary action remains for the Senate to determine under Article 6, Section 16 of the Constitution and applicable rules. This shall not be a proper subject matter to be taken up within this impeachment court so as not to divert the attention from the impeachment trial against the respondent in this case. Accordingly, the Chair reminds all senator-judges, first, to observe the impartiality and political neutrality required by their oath and the rules. to observe the parliamentary rules, precedents, and courtesies of the Senate and refrain from unparliamentary, offensive, or improper remarks. Third, to exercise their authority under Rule 17 to question witnesses, prosecutors, and counsels for the respondent and the prosecutor during the proceedings on the record instead of through commentaries in social media. Second ruling, Rule 18, scope coverage and prospective enforcement. Note on the statement prospective enforcement. Having addressed the conduct expected of senator-judges, the Chair now turns to Rule 18 and the persons expressly covered by it. The Chair makes this ruling not only in response to the manifestation and motion made by counsel for the respondent, Attorney Sheila Sison, on August 12 and after due consideration of Attorney Ligutan's explanation, but also on the basis of the Chair's independent findings of seeming violations of Rule 18. These incidents come after the Chair's earlier advice to both panels to designate the respective spokespersons so that the necessary and appropriate communications may be made within the limits prescribed by the rules. Since that advice has not been fully observed, the Chair now finds it necessary to restate and strictly enforce those restrictions. Article 18 of the Rules on Impeachment provides The presiding officer, the members of the Senate, shall refrain from making any comments and disclosures in public. Pertaining to the merits of a pending impeachment trial, the same shall likewise apply to the prosecutors, the person impeached, and their respective counsel and witnesses. This rule exists to balance the public's right to information on matters of public concern with the need to protect the integrity of the proceedings from public prejudgment. The rules of court apply only suppletorily to these proceedings. When the rules on impeachment expressly and specifically govern a matter, they control. Since Rule 18 directly governs public comments and disclosures pertaining to the merits of the pending impeachment trial, it is for this Court, in the exercise of its authority and sound discretion, to determine whether a particular statement violates that rule. Henceforth, with respect to prior statements or conduct covered by Rule 18, the Court shall extend grace, exercise liberality, and wipe the slate clean. Tabula rasa, so to speak. From this point forward, however, Rule 18 shall be strictly enforced and be given full force and effect. Accordingly, the chair hereby strictly enjoins all persons covered by Rule 18, you know who you are and based on the records, we know who you are, from making public statements or otherwise discussing, sharing, or endorsing comments pertaining to the merits of this pending impeachment trial and from engaging in trial by publicity as they directly threaten the independence of the court. Degrade the dignity of the tribunal and risk turning it into a circus and weaponize the media to substitute public outrage for actual evidence. We are in receipt of the appearances of the parties. So uncovered po ng Rule 18 would be all those who appeared both from the panel of prosecutors and the counsel for the panel of prosecutors. Chair earlier reminded The parties designate a specific spokesperson. Wala pong problema kung hindi naman siya kasama sa panel. Walang problema kung hindi siya kasama sa counsel for the panel of prosecutors. The spokespersons are free to say whatever they want to say, but not in their limitations insofar as the panel of prosecutors and the counsel for the panel of prosecutors is concerned. 82 00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:57,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Clearly, up to today, the spokesperson of both parties are still part of the counsel for the parties, some with more violations than others. So without enumerating the counsels where this rule applies, I think you know who you are, given the entries of appearance you've already made. These restrictions apply with particular force not only to counsel for the parties, but also to us, senator-judges, and all other persons whose public statements are governed. by Rule 18. Rule 18 makes specific mention of the respondent. It does not make mention of the complainants in this case, given the public nature of this case. So outside of the senator-judges, outside of the counsels for the parties, particularly mentioned would be the respondent herself, as well as the witnesses called. 83 00:36:00,020 --> 00:36:27,190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Third ruling, guidelines for compliance with Rule 18. To ensure a common standard, the Chair now states the guidelines governing compliance with Rule 18. That line is crossed when a public comment by any person covered by Rule 18 falls within the phrase, quote, pertaining to the merits. In this regard, jurisprudence has consistently distinguished matters going into the merits of a case from those which are merely procedural, incidental, or collateral. 84 00:36:33,640 --> 00:38:17,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As a technical legal term, merits has been defined in law dictionaries, as a matter of substance in law, as distinguished from matter of form, and as the real or substantial grounds of action or defense, in contradistinction to some technical or collateral matter raised in the course of a suit. In Badoy v. Magdoza-Malagar, A.M. No. 220916, S.E., Comments on the merits of the case may refer to the credibility of witnesses, the character of the accused, the soundness of alibis offered, the relevance of the evidence presented, and generally any other comment bearing on the guilt or innocence of the accused. Pursuant to the en banc case of in republished threats hurled by attorney de Vera, AM number 01-1203-SE, 1. No party shall make public comments, statements, insinuations, or rhetorical questions that 1. Prejudge the issue to predict the outcome of the trial 2. Question pending rulings 3. Substitute media pressure for evidence 4. Promote distrust and undermine public confidence in the court by creating the impression that the court cannot be trusted to resolve the case impartially and violate the right of the parties to have their case tried fairly by an independent tribunal uninfluenced by public clamor and other extraneous influences. For purposes of this trial, a statement pertains to the merits when viewed in its full 85 00:38:17,050 --> 00:38:17,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: context. 86 00:38:20,350 --> 00:40:29,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It evaluates a disputed fact. The credibility of a witness, the relevance or probative value, weight or sufficiency of a particular evidence, assessment as to the legal viability of an article of impeachment, or a substantive defense advocate's particular disposition of the charges or announces or forecasts the ultimate vote. Conversely, this Court recognizes the qualified privilege of a fair and true report. Regarding these proceedings, as affirmed in the Supreme Court in ABS-CBN v. Ampatuan, GR No. 22-7004, based on the jurisprudential standard derived from Article 35 of the Revised Penal Code, a fair and true report means a neutral, objective, and accurate recounting of the proceedings made in good faith without any comments or remarks. For the guidance of all the parties concerned, the Chair now issues the procedural guidelines for violations of Rule 18. The Impeachment Court will exercise its powers summarily under Rule 5 adhering strictly to the due process parameters set by the Supreme Court. First, a 24-hour show-cause order. No oral accusation or press pronouncement shall precede the formal charge. Any party cited for a particular violation will be issued a written show-cause order either motu proprio or upon motion by either party and will be given exactly 24 hours to submit a verified written answer. Pursuant to the Supreme Court's end-bank doctrine in Zaldivar v. Sandiganbayan , due process and disciplinary proceedings against lawyers and parties does not require a trial-type formal hearing. The presiding officer will rule summarily based solely on the submitted pleadings upon the lapse of the 24-hour period subject to appeal or reconsideration by any member of the court. Now, the burden of proof pursuant to Stratcom Corp v. Etong and Webb v. Gatula 87 00:40:32,590 --> 00:41:36,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Any punitive sanction requires this court to find that, quote, a person's act must be done willfully or for an illegitimate or improper purpose. Thus, the good faith or lack thereof of the person being cited in contempt should be considered. Hence, the contemnor is presumed innocent and the burden of proving that the contemnor is guilty of contempt lies with the movement. For violations of Rule 18, the Court shall follow a two-strike rule. Violations will be met with a strict graduated penalty system. First defense, public reprimand and admonition. The penalty is a severe reprimand and stern admonition in open court, placed permanently on the record as a final warning. Second defense, a monetary fine. The penalty, pursuant to the prescribed ceiling under Rule 71, Section 7 of the Court, The court will impose a maximum statutory fine of 30,000 per 88 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,460 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: violation . Furthermore, 89 00:41:40,900 --> 00:42:26,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: exercising the court's inherent case management powers under Rule 4, 5, 6, and 8 to preserve the orderly proceedings, the offending lawyer or party may also be subjected to a defined prospective restriction on speaking, objecting, or examining witnesses on the floor. Each subsequent violation of Rule 18 shall be punished the same way as a second offense, third, fourth, so on, with a fine of 30,000 pesos. In all cases wherein a member of the Bar is concerned, independently, pursuant to the case of Inre Almacen, the certified incident record will be transmitted and formal referral will be made to the Office of the Bar Confidant, the Integrated Bar of the Philippines, and or the Supreme Court. 90 00:42:28,320 --> 00:43:51,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: possible disciplinary sanction regarding the person's license to practice. The court also reminds respective councils of the parties that CPRA canon 2 section 19 prohibits lawyers to comment or publicize opinion pertaining to a pending proceeding in a manner that may cause prejudgment, sway public perception, influence the tribunal, or create a widespread perception of guilt or innocence. CPRA likewise requires professional responsibility on the use of social media and prohibits the dissemination of false or unverified claims or disinformation. Rule 18 does not, by its terms, cover outside observers or spokespersons who are not counsels of record. Such persons, however, remain subject, when applicable to the rules on indirect contempt and if they are members of the bar, to CPRA. To the CPRA, rather. Counsel of record must litigate their respective causes before the court, not in the court of public opinion, through interviews, social media posts, or publicly generated, authorized, encouraged, or disseminated through surrogates. Counsel cannot have their cake and eat it too. They cannot invoke the authority of this court while simultaneously seeking to influence the proceedings through extrajudicial publicity. 91 00:43:54,320 --> 00:44:31,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The chair has in its hands certain statements to cite as an example, as examples rather, without naming names. But you know who you are, who mentioned these quotes. Quote. Hindi naman pinag-uusapan dito yung kontrata. Pinag-uusapan dito yung banta. Yung banta. Nakita niyo sa video. May nagbanta talaga. At si Vice President yun. Hindi ba? If this was stated by a spokesperson or any third party observer, it would not have been a problem. But this was stated by a council. of record. Actually, more specifically, one of the counsels for the private prosecutors. 92 00:44:33,220 --> 00:44:48,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The country witnessed what I have been saying all along. The complaint is not supported by evidence. An impeachment proceeding should be grounded on credible evidence, not speculation, manufactured narratives, or unsupported allegations. The rule of law depends on facts, not fiction. 93 00:44:54,860 --> 00:45:23,750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Meron ba talagang mamamatay tao? Napakaliwanag na ho sa sagot diyan. Meron. Ano ho ang prueba natin? Yung tinatawag na admission against interest ng vice president. Again, to reiterate, if this was stated by any other party or person, not a member of the panel of prosecutors, not counsel for prosecutors, not the counsel for respondents, it would have been perfectly okay. But since this was stated by one of those covered by Rule 18, it is covered by Rule 18. 94 00:45:25,050 --> 00:45:49,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Since na-establish na namin yung hinahanap namin doon sa talagang testigo lamang, tatlong testigo lamang, finurgo na namin yung ibang mga testigo, na-establish na namin ang gusto naming establish sa Article 4. Itong mga bank records, bank records don't lie. Hindi na ho itong pwedeng ma-spin. Yan at sabihin gawa-gawa lang ng prosekusyon ng gobyerno. Itong mga usapin na ang explained wealth ng Vice President. 95 00:45:51,430 --> 00:45:59,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It is clear that the Vice President had a direct hand on this. She signed off to it. No, not just the use, but the way it was liquidated. 96 00:46:17,380 --> 00:47:00,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: na hindi kailangan sabihin pa na ginamit ito para sa personal na paggamit ng Vice President itong confidential funds na ito dahil sabi nga niya nakalagay na yan doon sa Joint Circular. Quote, siguro naman it's plain for everybody to see yung conclusion, no? Yung conclusion na tama ba yung pinagamitin ng confidential fund hanggang kailan ba yung pagpipikit mata natin sa isang bagay na napaka-klaro naman. Quote, To be fair, let's wait for their defense if they have any or their evidence. But so far as we are concerned, our position, you violated the public trust. Fraudulent liquidation, so you have violated the law. You already betrayed the people's trust. 97 00:47:14,330 --> 00:47:17,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: dun sa pagpapakita ng maling paggamit ng confidential fund. 98 00:47:20,140 --> 00:47:23,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Quote, to us it's a 99 00:47:23,220 --> 00:52:19,040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: scam, a scam that was masterminded by the Vice President. Again, these are statements that may be said by any third party, but certainly not by any of the counsel for the parties. I would like to give credit where credit is due as well. There are some counsel for the parties who have been very circumspect with their statements. and you also know who you are. After hearing these examples, no person covered by Rule 18 may reasonably claim uncertainty as to where the line is drawn. The statements ready to the record are illustrative, not exhaustive. They are cited not to punish past conduct, but to give clear and fair warning of the standard that shall govern henceforth. As the Chair stated in my opening statement. The discretion entrusted to this Court will be exercised with a steady hand, liberal where justice permits, but exacting where fairness, due process, and the integrity of these proceedings demand. Consistent with that commitment, the Court will strictly enforce the restraint required of counsel outside the courtroom, while ensuring that within the courtroom, counsel are afforded reasonable latitude to present their arguments, challenge rulings, through proper channels and advocate their respective causes fully and fairly. This discretion does not require counsel to remain silent within the impeachment court. The Supreme Court ruled in ABS-CBN Corporation versus Patuanas earlier cited that the court recognizes that lawyers may criticize the courts and their decisions subject to the responsibilities they bear as officers of the court. Such criticism, however, must be legitimate. made in good faith and directed toward the proper administration of justice. Rule 18 closes the avenue of litigating the merits through interviews, social media, and the court of public opinion. It does not close the courtroom to legitimate advocacy. If counsel believes that the ruling is erroneous, that the proceeding has become unfair, or that conduct affecting the trial requires correction, The proper course is to bring the matter before the court where it may be heard, answered, and resolved on the record. Rule 18 demands restraint beyond these walls. It does not command silence within them. This court will not close the door to trial by publicity. Rather, this court will close the door to trial by publicity, but it will keep the courtroom open to the disciplined advocacy where evidence is tested. Error is corrected and justice is done. Within these chambers, counsel shall be afforded reasonable latitude to present their theory of the case and vigorously test the evidence. Emotions may run high and frustrations may arise in the course of adversarial proceedings, but neither excuses a departure from the restraint and decorum expected of officers of the court. The case of Navarrete v. Court of Appeals , mirrors the exact situation that has transpired before the court. With respect to the words, swindlers, plunderers, stupid, and bastards, uttered by private respondent in the course of her testimony, we are inclined to disagree that such language is too ignominious and degrading for a lawyer to say to a fellow lawyer in the courtroom. In Baltao v. Falsis III, AC 1444-3, the Court said, While a lawyer is entitled to present his case with vigor and courage, such enthusiasm does not justify the use of offensive, abusive language. Language abounds with countless possibilities for one to be emphatic but respectful, convincing but not derogatory, illuminating, but not offensive. The latitude afforded to counsel is not a license to substitute inflammatory, intemperate, or undignified characterizations for proof. Consistent with the Chair's earlier ruling, the term scam mastermind modus operandi as used during the past proceedings stands stricken from the record. Counsel remain free to advance the factual and legal theories underlying their positions, but they must do so through evidence, recent argument, and court-appropriate language, not through expressions that prejudge disputed facts, attribute wrongdoing not yet established, cast offensive personalities upon others, or needlessly inflame the proceedings. Language uttered in the presence of the court that amounts to disrespect, offensive personalities, or misbehavior that obstructs 100 00:52:19,040 --> 00:58:51,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: or interrupts the proceedings may, when the applicable threshold is met, be dealt with as direct contempt. under the Rules on Impeachment, with Rule 71 Section 1 of the Rules applying supratorily. Whether or not such language rises to the level of direct contempt, counsel remain independently bound by the CIPRA to observe courtesy and civility and the use of dignified language in all their professional dealings, even as adversaries. This brings the chair to the relevant provisions of the CIPRA independently of Rule 18, Canon 2 of the CIPRA requires every lawyer at all times to observe respect and courtesy in personal and professional dealings. Canon 2, Section 2 further requires lawyers to act with courtesy, civility, fairness, and candor towards fellow members of the bar. These duties govern how counsel treat one another both in and outside the courtroom. Canon 2 section 4 likewise requires dignified language in all personal and professional dealings and prohibits abusive, intemperate, offensive, or otherwise improper language, whether oral or written, and whether made through traditional, electronic, mass, or social media. For the avoidance of doubt, Rule 18 applies only to the persons expressly covered therein, the presiding officer, the senator-judges, the prosecutors, the person impeached. and their respective counsel and witnesses. With respect to counsel, Rule 18 applies specifically to those who have formally entered their appearance before the impeachment court. Separately, when a spokesperson is a member of the bar but has not entered his or her appearance, the relevant provisions and indirect contempt under Rule 71, Revised Rules of Court, and when warranted, the CIPRA shall nonetheless apply to said person. In any case, This shall be without prejudice to any recourse to Rule 71, Revised Rules of Court with respect to any person who may commit indirect contempt against the Impeachment Court not covered by Rule 18. Accordingly, the Chair hereby declares, number one, directing all persons covered by Rule 18 to refrain from making, sharing, endorsing, or otherwise amplifying any public statement concerning the merits of the pending trial. Counsel for both parties are further directed to observe. the applicable provisions of CIPRA. Number two, reiterates the Chair's suggestion that each party consider appointing a spokesperson who is not a member of their legal team, or if they are, for it to be clear to them that these rules shall apply to them, given that they are counsel for the parties strictly. If the parties elect to retain their current spokespersons, the Rule 18 shall be strictly applied as to them. The court further advises respective counsel that the violation of this order may carry consequences separate from contempt. Where the same conduct appears to violate CIPRA, the chair may direct the clerk to transmit the certified copy of the pertinent order, transcript, and records to the Supreme Court or the Office of the Bar Confidant for whatever action the Supreme Court may deem proper. Such transmittal is a referral. not a finding or penalty of professional discipline. Disciplinary jurisdiction over members of the Bar still remain with the Supreme Court. Further, for avoidance of again doubt, a referral through the Office of the Bar Confident shall not rest on an alleged violation of Rule 18 standing alone. Such referral may concern other conduct outside of Rule 18 and becoming of a member of the Bar. The chair then issues this final warning on any willful disobedience of this order. It shall be dealt with accordingly, henceforth. The ruling prescribes the standards governing future conduct and does not by itself adjudge any identified person guilty of contempt or liable for a professional violation. The chair closes with separate reminders to the prosecution, counsel for the respondent, and senator-judges. To the prosecution, the primary duty of a public prosecutor is not to convict, but to see to it that justice is done. This duty is expressly stated in Canon 2, Section 31 of CIPRA, and echoed in Attorney Francisco v. Attorney Zuniga-Lagman, AC 13035. The prosecution's object must therefore be the just resolution of the case, not victory at all costs. This obligation governs not only the evidence and arguments presented before the court, but also counsel's conduct outside of it. To the respondent and to her counsel, the corresponding duty of defense counsel is not to secure an acquittal at all costs. In People of the Philippines v. XXX , the Supreme Court reminded counsel for the accused of their fiduciary duty to provide competent efficient, consensuous, and diligent representation. Under the same reason, counsel for respondent must faithfully protect their client's constitutional and procedural rights, rigorously test the prosecution's evidence, and hold the prosecution to the burden of proof governing these proceedings while remaining within the bounds of the law, ethics, and the lawful orders of this court. To my fellow senator-judges including this representation. The chair adopts the reminder in Webb v. De Leon, GR numbers 12, 1234, and 121245. Quote, More than convicting the guilty and acquitting the innocent, the business of this court is to assure fulfillment of the promise that justice shall be done and is done, and that the only way for this court to obtain an acquittal And that is the only way for this court to obtain an acquittal from the bar of public opinion. That obligation rests upon every senator-judge to decide solely upon the record, under the Constitution, and under our rules, and in a manner worthy of the confidence of the people to whom this court is ultimately accountable. 101 00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, and we may proceed with the trial at hand. 102 00:59:05,830 --> 00:59:15,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before recognizing the Honorable Chua, Chair would like to instruct the Clerk of Court to kindly situate Mr. Ortonio to the witness stand. Yes, Honorable Chua. 103 00:59:15,650 --> 00:59:21,550 Rep. Joel R. Chua: Your Honor, may I now turn over to the Counsel for the Prosecution, Attorney Mae Sancho Divinagracia. 104 00:59:23,970 --> 00:59:29,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May is recognized and also before recognizing Attorney Christine. We 105 00:59:29,790 --> 00:59:33,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: will just ask for Attorney Kristine R. Ferrer to be recognized, Your Honor. 106 00:59:33,290 --> 00:59:33,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, 107 00:59:33,530 --> 00:59:34,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Christine 108 00:59:34,250 --> 00:59:35,190 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and Attorney May then. 109 00:59:38,020 --> 00:59:50,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Ginong Ortonio, kayo po ay patuloy na tetestigo sa ilalimang naunan niyong panunumpa po. At kung saan nanumpa kayo magsasabi ng katotohanan at pawang katotohanan lamang. Naunawaan po niyon? 110 00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:51,960 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes po, Your Honor. 111 00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:55,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We may proceed now with cross. Attorney Christine, 112 00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:55,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you ready? 113 00:59:55,700 --> 00:59:57,660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, if I may be recognized. 114 00:59:58,340 --> 00:59:59,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney May. Your 115 00:59:59,540 --> 01:00:22,400 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor, before Before the defense counsel proceeds with her cross-examination, the prosecution respectfully moves that the defense be directed to conduct its cross-examination in non-leading question form, Your Honor. Yesterday, Your Honor, this honorable court declared Mr. Ortonio a hostile witness pursuant to 116 01:00:23,910 --> 01:02:42,290 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Rule 132, Section 13 of the Rules of Court. And in so ruling, effectively, this honorable court also declared that the interest of this witness is aligned with the respondent. Now, Your Honor, the permission to conduct leading, sorry, the permission to propound leading questions on cross-examination under Rule 132, Section 10A of the Rules of Court. rests solely on the presumption that the interest of the witness to be cross-examined is hostile or is adverse to the cross-examiner, making it difficult for the cross-examiner to put into the mouth of the witness words that he expects to be elicited. Now that presumption, Your Honor, has already been overcome by the declaration of this honorable court so what we expect Your Honor is merely cross-examination in form but not in substance because in substance Your Honor the cross-examination would effectively be like the respondent herself cross-examine sorry the respondent cross-examining or direct examining conducting a direct examination of her very own assistant chief of staff. Last Monday, Your Honor, we witnessed how the defense under the guise of cross-examination supplying testimonies to the witness, Ms. Gina Acosta, and merely expecting her to supply yes to each and every question, Your Honor. And that is the very evil sought to be prevented by the rule against leading questions on direct examination. Your Honor, I understand before I'm lectured on the contents of the rules of court, I'm very much aware of what the rules of court provide, but I'm also very much aware, Your Honor, that under the rules of this honorable court, the rules of court is merely suppletory in application. And in fact, the presiding officer is granted leeway to rule on every matter of evidence. 117 01:02:44,140 --> 01:02:45,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Comment, Attorney Christine. 118 01:02:45,720 --> 01:03:01,650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. Rule 132 of the Rules of Court does not convert a hostile witness as our own witnesses, Your Honor. So, therefore, we are not obliged to ask direct examination questions, Your Honor. Thank you. If I may, Your Honor. 119 01:03:01,870 --> 01:03:06,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Short reply and so replying, Attorney May, kindly cite a 120 01:03:08,020 --> 01:03:11,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: legal basis outside of the Rules of Court since you said it's not in the Rules of Court. 121 01:03:11,820 --> 01:03:46,160 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, I'm citing the very own rules of this honorable court. saying that the rules of court is merely suppletory in application and at the end of the day, it will be the presiding officer who will be deciding on matters of evidence. And early in the proceedings, Your Honor, if I remember correctly, two senator-judges encouraged this honorable court to look beyond the wordings of the law and consider the intent for its application. 122 01:03:48,360 --> 01:03:49,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is that it? Attorney May? 123 01:03:49,810 --> 01:03:50,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. 124 01:03:50,730 --> 01:04:22,950 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair will make a ruling. Rules of court, although it has merely suppletory application to these rules, nevertheless do apply in the rules of court state specifically that leading questions may be asked on cross-examination without any exception nor any limitation. And as held in the Bolas case, there is no need to interpret the rules in case where there is no doubt and the rule is quite specifically clear. Number two, We already have a precedent, at least with respect to the previous witness declared as a hostile 125 01:04:22,950 --> 01:04:28,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: witness in the person of Gina Acosta, where the court allowed counsel for the respondent 126 01:04:28,990 --> 01:04:46,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to ask leading questions. You shall be accorded the same privilege, Attorney May, on the part of the prosecution, should the respondent rather present a hostile witness during the presentation of their evidence in chief. The court shall apply the rule equally. So ordered. 127 01:04:48,070 --> 01:04:48,990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. 128 01:04:49,150 --> 01:04:53,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, Attorney May, or rather Attorney Christine. Yes, Your Honor. When you're 129 01:04:53,910 --> 01:05:27,850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: ready. Yes, Your Honor. Before I start with my cross-examination, just to put the record straight, Your Honor, when I said they are allowed I was referring to leading questions, Your Honor, because the journal dated August 12, 2019 would show that I was indeed asking a leading question before Attorney Kapunan objected, Your Honor. So if we take a look at it, with all due respect, the objection was even improper at that time, Your Honor. But I want that issue to be 130 01:05:27,850 --> 01:05:28,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: closed. 131 01:05:28,210 --> 01:05:30,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That was similarly pointed out by the Presiding Officer, Counsel. Thank you, 132 01:05:30,970 --> 01:05:37,000 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor. Sorry, Your Honor, before I proceed. May my colleague be recognized? 133 01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,480 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Of course. Attorney Lorna. 134 01:05:43,210 --> 01:05:57,870 Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Your Honor, please. First of all, I'd like to commend the presiding justice. Very clear. The rules, the ruling on sub judicia is very clear and we will take it with strict compliance, Your Honor. 135 01:05:58,070 --> 01:05:59,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, counsel. I'd 136 01:05:59,250 --> 01:06:46,480 Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: like to manifest though that again, the statement of counsel is misleading. because it was very clear, it was very clear, and the transcripts will show that the immediate phrase which led to my remark was not about leading, it was about misleading, Your Honor. If I heard it, if the whole legal profession heard it, if this courtroom heard it, if the outside audience heard it, then it must be It is what it is. She had said misleading is allowed and I responded to that and I'd like that to be on record, Your Honor. Let us not mislead again this honorable court. Thank you. Your Honor. 137 01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:57,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Without, the chair already made a ruling earlier regarding this matter brought about by the lead counsel. In lieu of that, the chair will simply furnish the parties with a copy of the TSN. 138 01:06:59,080 --> 01:07:18,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: wherein, I will quote again for the record, for the last time and then we proceed with cross. It's already 11. Attorney Kapunan, leading, comma, misleading questions are not allowed on cross. Attorney Ferrer, they are allowed. 139 01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:30,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is what the transcript says. and it has no reference to Attorney Ferrer stating specifically that misleading questions are allowed and perhaps the confusion arose 140 01:07:30,850 --> 01:07:36,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: with respect to the TSN again not being able to capture the perhaps overlapping 141 01:07:36,860 --> 01:07:44,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: statements made by both counsels and we should leave it at that already, counsels, and move on. 142 01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:45,720 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. 143 01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So when you're ready, no more manifestations, Attorney 144 01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:49,800 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Christine. 145 01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:52,050 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: None, Your Honor. 146 01:07:52,050 --> 01:07:54,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Proceed to cross. Yes, proceed to cross. 147 01:07:54,990 --> 01:07:57,390 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, you shall be the counsel for the prosecution. 148 01:07:57,770 --> 01:07:58,230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. 149 01:07:58,430 --> 01:07:59,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, you may proceed, ma'am, when you're ready. 150 01:08:00,730 --> 01:08:02,870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Good morning, Mr. Ortonio. 151 01:08:03,460 --> 01:08:04,920 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Good morning, Mama Imbuntad. 152 01:08:06,260 --> 01:08:23,460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Earlier, you said or you confirmed that no PFP or the No PFP was attached to the August 2022 letter request of the OVP to the DBM. Do you remember that? 153 01:08:23,700 --> 01:08:25,360 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. That's correct. 154 01:08:25,620 --> 01:08:38,400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the reason for this was because at that time, it is not being required by the Joint Circular to attach the PFP to that letter. 155 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:47,020 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on my understanding, ma'am, attaching the PFP is not required to the letter request, ma'am. 156 01:08:47,060 --> 01:08:58,880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. Nonetheless, when the DBM asked for documents in response to that request, you complied and submitted documents, correct? 157 01:08:59,420 --> 01:09:00,760 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, that's correct, ma'am. 158 01:09:00,900 --> 01:09:06,640 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you submitted those documents through your letter dated September 9, 2022. 159 01:09:07,450 --> 01:09:09,850 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, through our transmittal letter to the DBM. 160 01:09:10,090 --> 01:09:16,470 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. And the DBM, in fact, accepted your subsequent transmittal? 161 01:09:16,910 --> 01:09:18,510 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, that's correct, ma'am. 162 01:09:18,670 --> 01:09:31,370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the DBM did not say that those documents which you transmitted on September 9, 2022 were not compliant with the Joint Circular or with the law? 163 01:09:31,750 --> 01:09:36,270 Lemuel G. Ortonio: We did not receive any comment, ma'am, regarding the submitted PFP. 164 01:09:36,650 --> 01:09:40,290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the DBM, in fact, did not reject your submission. 165 01:09:41,050 --> 01:09:44,090 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, ma'am. We did not receive any comment from the DBM. 166 01:09:44,510 --> 01:09:59,410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you confirm also that the DBM even recommended the approval of your request to the Office of the President after your submission of those documents, correct? 167 01:09:59,770 --> 01:10:01,290 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. That's correct, ma'am. 168 01:10:01,330 --> 01:10:07,420 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And your request... for additional budget was actually approved by the Office of the President. 169 01:10:07,820 --> 01:10:09,120 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That's correct, ma'am. 170 01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:25,900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And in the process of approving your request for additional budget, no issue whatsoever was raised by either the DBM or the Office of the President regarding the documents that you submitted. 171 01:10:26,340 --> 01:10:31,420 Lemuel G. Ortonio: We did not receive any comment regarding the submissions that we've made. 172 01:10:31,740 --> 01:10:46,400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. You were also asked yesterday regarding the good governance program that was mentioned in the PFP for the fourth quarter of 2022. Do you recall that? 173 01:10:46,700 --> 01:10:47,540 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 174 01:10:47,600 --> 01:11:09,750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And as someone who supervises the administrative and financial management office of the OVP, You confirmed that the confidential funds for the fourth quarter of 2022 was requested to ensure the safe implementation of the OVP's good governance program. 175 01:11:10,210 --> 01:11:11,630 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That's correct, ma'am. 176 01:11:12,500 --> 01:11:25,300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the confidential funds were not used to fund the good governance program in itself, but the implementation thereof. Yes, 177 01:11:25,300 --> 01:11:26,700 Lemuel G. Ortonio: that's correct, ma'am. 178 01:11:27,450 --> 01:11:48,290 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Now we go to the 2023 PFP, which I assume you also recall. The 2023 PFP indicated that the phrase socio-economic program delivery instead of good governance program. Do you recall that? 179 01:11:48,670 --> 01:11:49,390 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 180 01:11:49,550 --> 01:11:55,950 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the socio-economic program delivery is a program of the OVP for the 2023? 181 01:11:56,830 --> 01:12:01,930 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, that is the encompassing program title for all the projects of the OVP. 182 01:12:02,010 --> 01:12:03,310 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: For the year 2023. For 183 01:12:03,310 --> 01:12:04,170 Lemuel G. Ortonio: the year 2023. 184 01:12:04,750 --> 01:12:14,550 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Again, the confidential funds for the year 2023 were not used to fund the social economic program itself. This time, Your Honor, I will have to object. 185 01:12:14,910 --> 01:12:15,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Um... 186 01:12:15,350 --> 01:12:16,330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Not yet done, Your Honor, with the question. 187 01:12:16,770 --> 01:12:17,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Not 188 01:12:17,210 --> 01:12:17,700 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: yet? 189 01:12:17,700 --> 01:12:18,870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes. 190 01:12:18,990 --> 01:12:20,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can we finish your question, counsel? 191 01:12:20,490 --> 01:12:32,630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. The confidential funds for the year 2023 were not used to fund the socio-economic program itself, but the safe implementation thereof. Before 192 01:12:32,630 --> 01:12:39,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the witness answers, the answer of the witness is stricken off, yes? 193 01:12:39,770 --> 01:13:17,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. This witness, Your Honor, based on his answers yesterday, is incompetent to testify on that. Why do I say that, Your Honor? First, this witness admitted yesterday that it was the Vice President herself who requested the confidential funds. And second, Your Honor, he himself explained that he had no participation whatsoever in the disbursement of said confidential funds. So this witness, Your Honor, by his own admission, is incompetent to testify where the confidential funds were spent or what the confidential funds were spent on. Quick 194 01:13:17,900 --> 01:13:18,720 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: reply, Your Honor. 195 01:13:19,020 --> 01:13:21,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes. Yesterday, 196 01:13:21,440 --> 01:13:46,760 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: yes, the witness also testified that he is the administrative and financial management officer. Sorry, Your Honor. He is the supervising officer of the administrative and financial management office of the OVP and that all budgets, as a general rule, are being approved by him, Your Honor. 197 01:13:49,210 --> 01:13:54,190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: participated in the request for the confidential funds in the year 2022, Your Honor. 198 01:13:54,290 --> 01:13:56,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, if I may just make a very quick rebuttal. 199 01:13:56,790 --> 01:13:58,270 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before the Chair makes a ruling, yes. 200 01:13:58,370 --> 01:14:22,240 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, we've heard it straight from the horse's mouth. The statement of this witness yesterday was that that was the general rule. Since that is merely the general rule, there are exceptions. And he also mentioned, Your Honor, that confidential funds It's not among those ones that went through him. 201 01:14:26,480 --> 01:14:50,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We've dealt this. Too many exchanges already, counsels. If the witness knows, he may respond. And as you very well know, Attorney May, sometimes a hostile witness may give a different answer on cross, which is a proper subject matter for redirect, if ever. when your time comes. Witness may answer. Yes, Mr. Ortonio, you may respond to the question. Thank 202 01:14:50,370 --> 01:15:16,220 Lemuel G. Ortonio: you, Your Honor. The way I understand the question is that the confidential funds was not used for any of the regular programs of the OVP under the socio-economic delivery programs for the 2023. So with that, sir, I can say Yes, the confidential funds were not used for the purpose of the implementation of the socio-economic programs of the OVP in itself. 203 01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:33,560 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you know that information by virtue of your position not only as the Assistant Chief of Staff but also as the supervising officer of the Administrative and Financial Management Office of the OVP? 204 01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:35,680 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am, that's correct. Thank 205 01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:35,900 Lemuel G. Ortonio: you. 206 01:15:40,660 --> 01:15:49,960 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The socio-economic program can be found in the 2023 General Appropriations Act. Yes ma'am, 207 01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:51,180 Lemuel G. Ortonio: that's correct ma'am. 208 01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:55,600 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And it's a line item in fact under the 2023 GAA. 209 01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:57,400 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, correct ma'am. 210 01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:14,670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: As the Assistant Chief of Staff of the OVP, Were you made aware of the reason why the Good Governance Program was changed to Socio-Economic Program Delivery in the 2023 PFP, if you know? 211 01:16:15,430 --> 01:16:44,070 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on my recollection, ma'am, there was a change in the program title from Good Governance to Socio-Economic Program in 2023 so that it encompasses Parang maku-cover nung title ng program yung all of the projects of the OVP because all the programs of the OVP addresses yung socio-economic concerns that the office would want to address. 212 01:16:44,530 --> 01:16:49,730 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. Let's go to the AOMs and the notice of suspension. 213 01:16:52,030 --> 01:17:11,410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You testified that as the Assistant Chief of Staff, you drafted and signed the replies to the AOMs received by the Office of the Vice President for the fourth quarter of 2022 as well as the first to third quarters of 2023. Do you confirm that? 214 01:17:11,530 --> 01:17:12,850 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, that's correct, ma'am. 215 01:17:12,930 --> 01:17:35,020 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you also signed the OVP's response and supplemental response to the notice of suspension dated December 13, 2023 relative to the confidential funds for the fourth quarter of 2022. Do you confirm 216 01:17:35,020 --> 01:17:37,260 Lemuel G. Ortonio: that? Yes, that's correct, ma'am. I'm one of the signatories. 217 01:17:37,900 --> 01:17:44,320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And because of that, you have studied all of the AOMs as well as the notice of suspension. 218 01:17:44,820 --> 01:17:46,200 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, that's correct, ma'am. 219 01:17:47,540 --> 01:17:52,820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The AOMs sought clarification on the liquidation documents of the OVP, correct? 220 01:17:53,180 --> 01:17:53,500 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes. 221 01:17:54,420 --> 01:18:05,710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The AOMs and the notice of suspension did not contain the phrase, if you recall, did not contain the phrase misuse of funds, if you can recall. 222 01:18:07,920 --> 01:18:12,180 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on my recollection, ma'am, I cannot recall. Your Honor, 223 01:18:12,320 --> 01:18:15,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: best evidence, sorry, original documents rule, Your Honor. 224 01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:21,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, I know the... Your Honor, I 225 01:18:21,140 --> 01:18:30,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: know the... Counselors, we can move on because before your objection, witness already said that he cannot recall, so move on, Attorney Christine. 226 01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:47,140 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. Okay, and in that, in those AOMs, can you recall if there was any finding of misuse of funds? Already asked and answered, Your Honor. I'm asking about findings, Your Honor. 227 01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:50,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer. She's asking about findings, counsel. 228 01:18:51,340 --> 01:18:58,820 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on my understanding, ma'am, no misuse, ma'am, although there were certain clarifications that were made. 229 01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:10,330 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. And the notice of suspension also does not contain any finding or findings on the misuse of funds? 230 01:19:12,140 --> 01:19:16,780 Lemuel G. Ortonio: None that I can recall. Just some clarifications, ma'am. 231 01:19:17,180 --> 01:19:31,180 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. And the AOMs and the notice of suspension were not final findings of the COA-ICPAO when it comes to the confidential funds of the OVP. Do you confirm that? 232 01:19:31,540 --> 01:19:41,320 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. That's my understanding, ma'am, that once we receive the AOMs, we are given the opportunity to send our comments. 233 01:19:41,740 --> 01:20:00,570 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. In fact, if you know There is a pending motion for reconsideration before the commission proper relative to the notice of this allowance covering the confidential funds for the fourth quarter of 2022. If you know. Objection, Your Honor. 234 01:20:00,610 --> 01:20:02,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before you answer, Attorney May. 235 01:20:02,550 --> 01:20:25,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, that's no longer covered by the direct examination. The rule for the cross-examination of hostile witnesses under Rule 132, Section 13 is different, Your Honor. What can be covered on cross-examination of a hostile witness are only those matters that were covered on direct examination. At no point was a mention of petition for review ever made during direct examination. 236 01:20:26,740 --> 01:20:37,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The court will give counsel sufficient leeway on cross. The court will also like to find out about this petition for review, which was discussed with the witness Gina Acosta. Witness, may I answer? 237 01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:40,520 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sorry, again, ma'am, the question, ma'am. 238 01:20:40,700 --> 01:20:59,000 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, I'll repeat my question. If you know there is a pending AR, on the note, there is a pending motion for reconsideration. of the notice of this allowance covering the confidential funds for the fourth quarter of 2022. Yes, 239 01:20:59,120 --> 01:20:59,320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: ma'am. 240 01:20:59,340 --> 01:20:59,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, Your 241 01:20:59,640 --> 01:20:59,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor. 242 01:21:00,260 --> 01:21:05,000 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, move to strike, Your Honor, because I wasn't given enough opportunity, Your Honor. Would 243 01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:13,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the witness kindly wait just for a few seconds before answering? Yes, what is the ground of the objection, counsel? It's 244 01:21:13,980 --> 01:21:18,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: misleading, Your Honor, because a petition for review. It 245 01:21:18,180 --> 01:21:19,140 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: was not on. 246 01:21:23,620 --> 01:21:24,380 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I'd 247 01:21:24,380 --> 01:21:26,660 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: rather repeat my question, Your Honor. 248 01:21:26,940 --> 01:21:31,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In fact, 249 01:21:31,860 --> 01:21:48,490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: if you know, there is a pending motion for reconsideration of the notice of this allowance covering the confidential funds for the fourth quarter of 2022 before the commission proper of COA. Your 250 01:21:48,490 --> 01:21:48,670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Honor, 251 01:21:48,750 --> 01:21:48,950 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: again, 252 01:21:49,110 --> 01:22:09,690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: this witness will be incompetent to testify on it, Your Honor. The participation of this witness in the filing of the petition for review has not yet been established. It wasn't even established yet, Your Honor, that this witness is even aware of the contents of the petition for review. Your Honor, the court will 253 01:22:09,690 --> 01:22:13,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: review. If he knows, Mr. Ortonio, if you know. 254 01:22:13,890 --> 01:22:25,350 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I am aware, Your Honor, but as to the specifics on the reply or the contents of the MR, I'm not very much aware of the contents. 255 01:22:25,710 --> 01:22:40,410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. As to the first to third quarters of 2023, a notice of disallowance was issued by the COA dated March 31, 2026, if you know. 256 01:22:40,990 --> 01:22:42,530 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, that's correct, ma'am. 257 01:22:42,770 --> 01:22:53,210 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In fact, you are the person who received the notice on April 8, 2026 on behalf of the Vice President. Again, Your Honor, with all due respect, that's already going beyond 258 01:22:53,210 --> 01:23:19,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: what was discussed on direct examination which is prescribed under Section 13, Rule 132, Your Honor. At no point did we discuss the notice of disallowance for the last three AOMs. The discussion During direct examination, we're limited to the notice of suspension up to only the notice of suspension. 259 01:23:21,210 --> 01:23:43,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the chair will note the um will con will convert the objection of council to a continuing objection with respect to um the line of questioning of um attorney christine on this witness but the court will allow it um but notes the continuing objection of council um with respect to these notices of this allowance um that were issued sir tonya 260 01:23:43,710 --> 01:23:44,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please answer. 261 01:23:44,250 --> 01:23:44,970 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yeah. 262 01:23:44,970 --> 01:23:46,710 Lemuel G. Ortonio: ma'am can you repeat the question ma'am 263 01:23:46,710 --> 01:23:48,730 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: okay i will repeat uh 264 01:23:51,220 --> 01:24:05,110 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: A notice of this allowance was issued by the COA on March, dated March 31, 2026, relative to the first to third quarters of 2023. 265 01:24:06,050 --> 01:24:07,110 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 266 01:24:07,170 --> 01:24:16,610 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you are the person who received the notice of this allowance on April 8, 2026, on behalf of the Vice President. 267 01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:22,580 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. I received the document on behalf of the vice president as the assistant chief of staff. 268 01:24:22,900 --> 01:24:47,010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you. Under the COA rules, if you know, since you are the one who also responded to the AOMs, under the COA rules of procedure, The OVP has six months from its receipt of the ND or the notice of this allowance to file a petition for review with the commission proper of the COA. Objection, Your 269 01:24:47,010 --> 01:25:00,350 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Honor. This witness will be incompetent. Unlike the joint circular, Your Honor, which he specifically mentioned in his replies, Your Honor. There was no mention whatsoever of the COA rules in any of his replies. If he 270 01:25:00,350 --> 01:25:01,490 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: knows, Your Honor. Your Honor. 271 01:25:02,770 --> 01:25:07,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney Christine, move on to, will we get your point? You can move on to your next item. 272 01:25:07,710 --> 01:25:07,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, Your Honor. 273 01:25:08,830 --> 01:25:26,010 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I will continue. Now, your involvement when it comes to the OVP confidential funds were, kindly confirm each item. Number one, processing the request for the confidential funds for the fourth quarter of 2022. 274 01:25:26,010 --> 01:25:29,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, Your Honor. There was no statement to that effect during the direct examination. 275 01:25:31,850 --> 01:25:43,630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, she asked for the functions, Your Honor. She even presented the documents, Your Honor, pertaining to the confidential funds of 2022, Your Honor, which the witness also processed. 276 01:25:46,730 --> 01:26:22,510 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Again, that's misleading, Your Honor, because I never asked about the participation of this witness in that request. In fact, he himself explained, Your Honor, during direct examination that the request was purely the Vice President's. He had no participation whatsoever in the request. He is only aware, is only... aware that a request was made because of that letter that he was confronted with. That's why throughout the direct examination, his answers would be limited to what is contained in the documents. Well, 277 01:26:22,670 --> 01:26:39,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: if he knows counsel, and again, this would be a ripe subject matter for your redirect, if he all of a sudden regains, if all of a sudden he remembers, it is a proper subject matter of redirect. Witness my answer. Your 278 01:26:39,680 --> 01:27:00,400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Honor, yes, I will repeat my question. Your involvement when it comes to the OVP confidential funds were, number one, processing the request for the confidential funds for the fourth quarter of 2022 as evidenced by your letter dated September 9, 2022 to the DBM. 279 01:27:00,780 --> 01:27:05,840 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Ma'am, just a quick clarification. When you say processing, ma'am, in terms of 280 01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:09,740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Handling the request. 281 01:27:10,460 --> 01:27:18,620 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. Through my office, ma'am, we transmitted the request to the DBM. 282 01:27:18,940 --> 01:27:21,700 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Signing of vouchers. 283 01:27:22,470 --> 01:27:24,690 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That's correct, ma'am. Signing of vouchers. 284 01:27:24,850 --> 01:27:25,870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Signing of checks. 285 01:27:26,270 --> 01:27:26,850 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes. 286 01:27:27,430 --> 01:27:31,830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Signing of responses to the AOMs and the notice of disallowance. 287 01:27:31,930 --> 01:27:32,670 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 288 01:27:33,130 --> 01:27:38,670 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: and acting as liaison when it comes to the submission of the liquidation documents to the ICVAO. 289 01:27:38,830 --> 01:27:39,610 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 290 01:27:39,690 --> 01:27:47,470 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you. You were not involved in the drafting of the quarterly liquidation reports of the confidential funds, correct? 291 01:27:47,850 --> 01:27:48,570 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, ma'am. 292 01:27:49,070 --> 01:27:52,370 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: That work belongs to Ms. Gina Acosta, right? 293 01:27:53,050 --> 01:27:55,270 Lemuel G. Ortonio: As of my understanding, ma'am, yes, ma'am. 294 01:27:55,330 --> 01:27:59,770 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You were not involved in the disbursement of confidential funds, is that right? 295 01:28:00,290 --> 01:28:00,910 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, ma'am. 296 01:28:01,710 --> 01:28:04,650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: and also the recording of confidential expenses. 297 01:28:05,230 --> 01:28:06,090 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, ma'am. 298 01:28:06,570 --> 01:28:10,910 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The recording of confidential expenses is being done by Ms. Gina Acosta. 299 01:28:11,190 --> 01:28:13,470 Lemuel G. Ortonio: As of my understanding, ma'am, yes, she is. 300 01:28:13,890 --> 01:28:19,410 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you were not also involved in the confidential operations of the OVP? 301 01:28:19,750 --> 01:28:20,550 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, ma'am. 302 01:28:20,970 --> 01:28:26,870 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And you have not met any of the confidential informants of the OVP? 303 01:28:27,480 --> 01:28:28,280 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, ma'am. 304 01:28:28,890 --> 01:28:32,970 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Neither did Ms. Gina Acosta? Meet any of them, if you know. 305 01:28:33,350 --> 01:28:36,810 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That I would have no personal knowledge, ma'am. 306 01:28:36,910 --> 01:28:43,710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, thank you. As far as you know, the confidential informants only liaise with Colonel La Chica, if you know. 307 01:28:44,930 --> 01:28:47,170 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That is of my understanding, ma'am. 308 01:28:47,650 --> 01:29:00,440 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And the reason being is that the information as to the identity of the informants is classified and sensitive under the Joint Circular, specifically item 3.28. 309 01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:22,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, Your Honor. This witness has already repeatedly testified that he had no participation in the disbursement of the confidential funds, Your Honor. And yet, defense counsel, with all due respect to her, keeps on propounding questions related to the disbursement. 310 01:29:23,710 --> 01:29:32,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And this answer, counsel, will always be in the negative. because he has been consistent in regard to not having any participation with the disbursement. 311 01:29:32,620 --> 01:29:38,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I think that has been established, Attorney Christine, that he has no participation in the disbursement. 312 01:29:39,060 --> 01:29:46,300 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Actually, Your Honor, my question was not about the disbursement, Your Honor. If I can repeat it, Your Honor. Can you repeat the question, Attorney Christine? Thank you. 313 01:29:47,440 --> 01:30:22,990 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: You answered earlier that as far as you know, the confidential informants only liaise with Colonel La Chica. that was your answer earlier and the reason being okay if you know is that the I will repeat, Your Honor. The reason being is that the information as to the identity of the informants is sensitive. under the Joint Circular. Your Honor, 314 01:30:23,050 --> 01:30:42,150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I raise the same objection, Your Honor. This witness already testified that he has no participation in the disbursement and implementation of the confidential funds. Now, Defense Counsel is asking the reason why the informants did not directly... 315 01:30:43,830 --> 01:30:44,750 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, please. 316 01:30:45,290 --> 01:31:05,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Chair will make a ruling. Chair will sustain the objection, but not on that ground, but on the ground that is misleading because the witness did not say that it is of a sensitive nature, but that, if I remember correctly, it was confidential. That was the statement made by Attorney Lachica to him. Hindi niya sasabihin because it was confidential. 317 01:31:06,670 --> 01:31:10,650 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. We will no longer push the question. Thank you. 318 01:31:12,030 --> 01:31:13,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Move on to your next point, Attorney Christine. 319 01:31:14,650 --> 01:31:17,230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I'm already done, Your Honor. Thank you. 320 01:31:17,790 --> 01:31:20,890 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are you ready for your redirect also? Your Honor, 321 01:31:20,950 --> 01:31:27,270 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: may I just have 10 minutes, Your Honor, to organize my redirect, Your Honor, given the number of questions that were proposed on cross-examination. 322 01:31:27,570 --> 01:32:06,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of the senator-judges, so as to save on time while we're giving... Atty. May, some time. You will have a similar amount of time, Atty. Christine, if you so desire, for every cross. I will, in the meantime, allow senator-judges to interject in the interregnum to save on the court's time. I can see the hand of Senator Sotto. Anika, after Senator Sotto, can you list the rest? Chair recognizes Senator-Judge Sotto for his interjection. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 323 01:32:07,740 --> 01:32:12,340 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Actually, just one question to Mr. Ortonio. 324 01:32:14,180 --> 01:32:43,790 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: And this is out of my curiosity. Earlier, you confirmed that all admin and finance matters dumadaan sa iyo. That's correct, Your Honor. Also, you said that you were the head of HR in Davao, the LGU. That's correct, Your Honor. Correct. In this regard, I'm sure you would know, what is the employment status of Colonel La Chica in the office of the Vice President? 325 01:32:45,030 --> 01:33:02,070 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Colonel La Chica po is the group commander of the VPSPG and he is not an employee of the OVP but he has an order coming from the AFP designating him as the group commander for the Vice Presidential Security and Protection Group. 326 01:33:02,390 --> 01:33:03,670 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Therefore, designation. 327 01:33:05,570 --> 01:33:16,970 Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: You're saying he's not employed. He does not have any employment status in the office of the Vice President. Yes, but Your Honor. That's all I wanted to know, Mr. President. Thank you. 328 01:33:17,710 --> 01:33:28,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Point well taken, Senator Judge Sotto. Next to interject is Senator Erwin Tulfo. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes. 329 01:33:29,740 --> 01:33:40,280 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. You know, testigo. Nabasa niyo po ba na mabuti at naintindihan ang nilalaman ng Joint Memorandum Circular, Sir? 330 01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:52,820 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Good morning, Sir. Yes, Your Honor, I was able to read it and based on my understanding, I was able to understand the contents of the JMC. 331 01:33:53,200 --> 01:34:05,640 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Noong kayo po ay pinadalahan na ng Notice of Disallowance ng COAN, nabasa niyo rin po ba? kung bakit kayo po pinadalhan ng notice of disallowance, kailangan niyo pong sagutin yung kanilang AOM. 332 01:34:07,050 --> 01:34:10,290 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes po, for the 2022. 2022. 333 01:34:10,970 --> 01:34:44,950 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So naintindihan po ninyo na sinasabi doon ng COA na while confidential funds allow for the payment of rewards to civil information, yung COA po has ruled that this cannot be structured as broad distribution of medicines. food, grocery packs, or household goods and that kung ito po ay reward, dapat po specific targeted financial payouts lamang po at hindi po pwedeng ibili ng mga gamot o ng mga upuan bilang reward. Naintindihan niyo po ba yun? 334 01:34:45,270 --> 01:34:59,870 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, based on my understanding, sir, that is the initial observation coming from the COA and we were able to provide comment on that on our replies. Tama. 335 01:35:00,030 --> 01:35:34,020 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Pero alam niyo po ba ng Office of the Vice President is a civilian office. Ibig sabihin, hindi po sila military, therefore, hindi po sila maaaring mag-possess ng formal national security or law enforcement mandate. Sabi po ng COA guidelines, sir, again, specifically, The Operational Intelligence Gathering is the domain of military, police, and specialized enforcement bodies. Hindi po kasama ang PSPG po roon. Did you know that? 336 01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:56,270 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, based on my understanding, sir, sa pagkakaintitig ko po sa JMC is that the confidential funds is allowed for civilian agencies, sir. and in coordination with the different law enforcing agencies. Yun po yung pagkakaintindi ko po. 337 01:35:56,270 --> 01:36:36,170 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Yun po ang pagkakaintindi ko ninyo. Pero iba po yung sinasabi po ng COA sa inyo kaya po kayo may notice of disallowance. Kaya po sinasabi ng COA at ini-issue po sa inyo formal notice of disallowance na 73.3 million ng OVP December 2022 confidential spending. Yung pang dahilan na major reason for this allowance was that 24.93 million pesos spent on medicines and 34.857 million spent on various goods were improperly categorized under the guise of intelligence rewards. Alam niyo po ba yun? Kaya pinadalhan po kayo ng COA, sir. 338 01:36:37,090 --> 01:36:44,610 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, based on what I can recall po, sir, on the notice of this allowance that was sent to our office, 339 01:36:46,230 --> 01:36:58,030 Lemuel G. Ortonio: What they required, sir, was that the submission of an intelligence report to support the payment of those rewards. So yun po yung pagkakaintindi ko regarding sa letter. 340 01:36:58,430 --> 01:37:03,530 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So nakita po ninyo na may problem, sir. May problem. Kaya kayo pinagpapaliwanag. 341 01:37:03,650 --> 01:37:06,090 Lemuel G. Ortonio: There is an issue po, sir, that we needed to 342 01:37:06,090 --> 01:37:29,250 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: comply. Okay. Panghuli na lamang, Mr. Presiding Officer, one last question. Sir, sino po mga nag-invento at saan galing yung mga alias po na yun? Is that Colonel La Chica o sa grupo ninyo, sila Chippy McDonald, sila Posa, Aso, etc., may sila Pagong? Who invented those? 343 01:37:29,970 --> 01:37:50,590 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, I do not know, Sir. Number one, Sir, I cannot answer, Sir, if invented, Sir. But as to the AR, sir, I cannot provide information, sir, because I do not have any participation in the implementation of the confidential activities. 344 01:37:50,710 --> 01:37:53,010 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Witness. Presiding Officer, thank you, sir. 345 01:37:53,230 --> 01:37:58,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you very much, Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo. Senator-Judge Pangilinan is recognized. You have two minutes, sir, and you 346 01:37:58,850 --> 01:37:59,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may proceed when you're ready. 347 01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:19,260 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Maraming salamat. Magandang umaga. Ginoong Ortonio. Good morning, sir. Yes. Pwede niyo bang ipaliwanag yung naging proseso? Dahil base sa testimonya ni Acosta, ni Ginang Acosta at sa inyo, yung testimonya niyo. 348 01:38:19,740 --> 01:38:40,330 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: From December 2022 to September 2023, a total of 122 million pesos in cash was distributed to perhaps hundreds of informants after doing surveillance work was given rewards. and they purchased medicines. 349 01:38:42,330 --> 01:38:43,000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tama po? 350 01:38:43,000 --> 01:38:52,000 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on the information that was shared to me by the security officers. That's correct. Yun yung nangyari. Based on the information, sir. 351 01:38:52,000 --> 01:38:54,000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Bakit gamot? Would you know? 352 01:38:54,000 --> 01:39:13,960 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, I would not know, Sir, but although based on the information that was shared to me by the security officer, those were the, parang yun po yung representation or yun daw po yung inilapit ng mga informants or agents that they needed at the time. 353 01:39:15,590 --> 01:39:17,000 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Bilang reward. 354 01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:18,810 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. Pero pera 355 01:39:18,810 --> 01:39:20,430 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: ang binigay, sabi ninyo. Yes, 356 01:39:20,470 --> 01:39:20,800 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir. 357 01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:24,600 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Pero hindi nyo alam kung talagang gamot ang binili. 358 01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:28,300 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I would have no idea, sir, on the implementation, sir. 359 01:39:28,300 --> 01:39:29,600 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Dahil walang resibo. 360 01:39:29,600 --> 01:39:32,930 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Acknowledgement receipt meron. Acknowledgement receipt, sir. 361 01:39:33,770 --> 01:40:00,300 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: You were head of the BA, diba? Bids and Awards. Bids and Awards Committee. So familiar ka, pagka regular purchases, dapat may bidding ang medicines. Correct, sir. Diba? Yes, sir. So, kung yun ang pinaliwanag sa'yo, sa loob ng siyem na buwan, hindi mo ba tinanong o hindi mo ba sinita? na dapat pagka-medicines, dapat bidding. Kasi ako ang head ng bids and awards. Alam ko yan eh. 362 01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:22,640 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, I was only made aware of the concern regarding the medicines and food supply, sir, when the AOM, when we received the AOM, which was around October of 2023, sir. So that was parang almost nine months after the 363 01:40:24,810 --> 01:40:28,530 Lemuel G. Ortonio: 2022 na implementation for the confidential funds. 364 01:40:28,830 --> 01:40:40,840 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. So, hindi mo alam kung bakit gamot. Sinabi lang sa'yo. Pero bilang in-charge ng financial services, yun na 365 01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:47,000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: nga, hindi mo rin talaga alam kung yung 122 million ay gamot ay binili. 366 01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:52,200 Lemuel G. Ortonio: For that purpose, sir, I would have no personal knowledge, sir. 367 01:40:52,200 --> 01:40:57,000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: At sa usapin naman ng supplies, purchase of supplies, anong supplies yun? 368 01:40:57,000 --> 01:40:57,380 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Would you know? 369 01:40:58,190 --> 01:41:04,950 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I do not know of, I'm not familiar, Sir, kung ano po yung mga supplies na nirequest. 370 01:41:04,950 --> 01:41:08,850 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Hindi mo rin alam na yung 112 million pesos worth of 371 01:41:08,880 --> 01:41:13,300 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: goods, anong goods yun? 372 01:41:13,300 --> 01:41:19,950 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Again, Sir, I would have no personal knowledge, Sir, on the specifics of the supplies, Sir. 373 01:41:21,280 --> 01:41:28,010 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: You have two master's degrees. You're a graduate of Ateneo. Would you consider this usual? 374 01:41:29,390 --> 01:41:31,750 Lemuel G. Ortonio: As far as sa pagkakaraan... I mean, 375 01:41:31,770 --> 01:41:45,410 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: now that you know. Diba sabi nga nila, hindsight, 2020. Vision is always 2020 in hindsight. So ganitong para sa surveillance, binigyan ng gamot na 122 million. 376 01:41:47,410 --> 01:41:50,990 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yung mga informant, sila na lang daw ang bibili ng gamot. 377 01:41:52,880 --> 01:41:58,000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Is this usual? In terms of using government funds? And you 378 01:41:58,000 --> 01:42:00,300 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: being a BAC head? 379 01:42:00,300 --> 01:42:13,380 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on my understanding po sir, at saka sa pagkakaintindi ko po sir, it went through the parang the process that is allowable by law. So 380 01:42:13,380 --> 01:42:13,980 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: it's usual? 381 01:42:14,460 --> 01:42:22,270 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: For you? It's usual? That's just my question. Do you find this usual? And you say yes or no. So you find 382 01:42:36,210 --> 01:42:46,050 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Kung sa pagkakaintindi ko po sir and based po sa understanding ko po sa JMC sir, I would say so sir. 383 01:42:47,300 --> 01:42:48,940 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: No further questions at this time, sir. 384 01:42:49,000 --> 01:42:54,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. With the permission of the next in line is Senator-Judge Tulfo, but with your permission, Honorable Tulfo. 385 01:42:56,760 --> 01:43:04,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thereafter, Senator Villanueva, the Senate President, Senator Indivera, Senator Laxon. The ten minutes of Attorney May is up. 386 01:43:05,920 --> 01:43:17,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, can you now proceed with your redirect? Again, without prejudice, to Attorney Christine, asking for a similar time for her recourse, should she require it? 387 01:43:20,140 --> 01:43:24,940 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Good morning. Good morning, Mr. Ortonio. Good 388 01:43:24,940 --> 01:43:25,440 Lemuel G. Ortonio: morning, ma'am. 389 01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:38,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Kanina, on cross-examination, sinabi mo na sa pagkakaalam mo, hindi required na i-attach ang PFP sa request for confidential funds. Tama ba? 390 01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:39,920 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, po. 391 01:43:40,060 --> 01:43:54,330 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Now, may we confront you with section 3.24 of The Joint Circular 2015-01. Can 392 01:43:54,330 --> 01:44:03,590 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you kindly read it for the record? Can you 393 01:44:08,710 --> 01:44:13,990 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: kindly read for the record what 3.24 of the Joint Circular states? 394 01:44:15,070 --> 01:44:39,180 Lemuel G. Ortonio: 3.24 physical and financial plan refers to the plan approved by the head of office. in the case of NGAs and LGUs and by the Board of Directors, in the case of GOCCs, supporting the request for funds for CE and IE containing the estimated amount per project, activity, and program. 395 01:44:40,160 --> 01:44:42,860 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Nabasa niyo po ba yan bago kayo sumagot kanina? 396 01:44:44,180 --> 01:44:44,920 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Familiar po 397 01:44:44,920 --> 01:44:46,300 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: kayo sa provision na yan? 398 01:44:46,600 --> 01:44:50,660 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I have to be honest, ma'am, na I cannot remember this one, ma'am. 399 01:44:51,540 --> 01:45:01,210 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon, Hindi rin ikaw ang nagpadala or nagprepare ng October 22, 2022 letter. Tama ba? 400 01:45:01,510 --> 01:45:02,310 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sorry, ma'am. 401 01:45:02,410 --> 01:45:04,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Hindi rin ikaw ang nagpadala ng 402 01:45:04,430 --> 01:45:05,350 Lemuel G. Ortonio: August 403 01:45:05,350 --> 01:45:08,530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: 22, 2022 letter. Tama ba? It 404 01:45:08,530 --> 01:45:13,430 Lemuel G. Ortonio: is through our usual na routing process, ma'am. 405 01:45:13,530 --> 01:45:21,690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And also, sabi mo kahapon, it was the decision of the Vice President to request the confidential funds. Tama ba? 406 01:45:22,250 --> 01:45:30,190 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, as the head of agency, ma'am, I would understand that she has the authority to request for the said funds, ma'am. 407 01:45:30,290 --> 01:45:36,690 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And siya rin yung nag-sign off dun sa August 22, 2022 letter, tama ba? 408 01:45:37,030 --> 01:45:37,730 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 409 01:45:37,810 --> 01:45:37,830 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Siya 410 01:45:37,830 --> 01:45:39,130 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: yung pumirma, tama ba? 411 01:45:39,350 --> 01:45:39,850 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 412 01:45:39,950 --> 01:45:59,770 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay, so hindi mo alam kung paano in-interpret ng vice-presidente yung provision na iyon binasa. Tama ba? You cannot say with certainty how the Vice President interpreted that provision. 413 01:46:00,090 --> 01:46:03,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before you answer, before you answer, Mr. Ortonio, yes, Attorney Goodstein? 414 01:46:04,210 --> 01:46:09,070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Witness is incompetent to read the state of mind of the Vice President, Your Honor. That's precisely the point, Your Honor. 415 01:46:09,150 --> 01:46:23,280 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: That's precisely what I'm asking the witness to confirm that he cannot say with certainty the frame of mind of the Vice President if she was also thinking that the PFP is not required for the request. 416 01:46:23,980 --> 01:46:27,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Applying the rules equally, if he knows, witness may answer. 417 01:46:27,600 --> 01:46:28,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Thank you, Your Honor. 418 01:46:28,400 --> 01:46:30,300 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Again, ma'am, for the question ulit, ma'am. 419 01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:44,140 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So hindi mo rin masasabi, you cannot say with certainty na ganyan din ang interpretasyon ng vicepresidente doon sa provision na binasa mo nang ipinadala ang sula to the DPM dated August 22, 2022. Tama ba? 420 01:46:44,260 --> 01:46:45,240 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I cannot, ma'am. 421 01:46:45,500 --> 01:46:50,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: But you are sure, you can confirm that the vicepresident is a lawyer. Tama ba? 422 01:46:51,570 --> 01:46:52,910 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. She is a lawyer. 423 01:46:54,710 --> 01:47:07,620 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sinabi mo rin kanina na yung confidential funds, to your knowledge, hindi lang ito ginastos sa regular programs ng good governance. Tama ba? 424 01:47:08,220 --> 01:47:12,400 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Ma'am, what I meant, ma'am, is that... Sorry, 425 01:47:12,700 --> 01:47:23,560 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Mr. Tony, let me just clarify. Sinabi mo kanina na to your knowledge... yung confidential funds were not spent on the regular programs under the good governance program. Tama ba? 426 01:47:23,700 --> 01:47:25,060 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That's correct. Yan 427 01:47:25,060 --> 01:47:37,540 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: din yung sinabi mo para sa socio-economic delivery programs. Ang sabi mo, yung confidential funds hindi ginamit sa regular programs ng socio-economic delivery programs ng OVP. Tama ba? 428 01:47:37,660 --> 01:47:38,540 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That's correct. 429 01:47:38,740 --> 01:48:01,350 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pero you will confirm na yung sa PFP hindi naka-indicate The confidential funds will be used not for the regular programs of the good governance program of the OVP. Tama ba? Walang qualification dun sa PFP. Tama ba? Ang nakalagay lang dun, good governance program. 430 01:48:01,770 --> 01:48:07,890 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. Based on the document that I saw, ma'am, it only indicated the program titles. Okay. 431 01:48:07,970 --> 01:48:20,270 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Tama. So hindi naka-indicate dun na gagamitin ang confidential funds. para sa programa other than the regular programs under the good governance program. Tama ba? 432 01:48:20,650 --> 01:48:21,570 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 433 01:48:21,790 --> 01:48:31,870 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Same is true for the 2023 PFP. Ang nakalagay lamang doon, socio-economic delivery. Walang qualification. Tama ba? 434 01:48:32,130 --> 01:48:34,710 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on the document that was presented, ma'am. 435 01:48:34,790 --> 01:48:40,250 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Hindi rin sinabi na the confidential funds for 2023 436 01:48:41,820 --> 01:48:49,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: ay gagamitin for programs other than the regular programs of the socio-economic delivery programs of the OVP. Tama ba? 437 01:48:49,120 --> 01:48:51,900 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sorry ma'am, can you repeat the question ma'am? Hindi 438 01:48:51,900 --> 01:49:07,500 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: rin sinabi sa PFP for 2023, the confidential funds of the OVP will be used for programs other than the regular programs under the socio-economic delivery program of the OVP. 439 01:49:07,990 --> 01:49:12,010 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on the document, ma'am, it does not specifically indicate. 440 01:49:12,910 --> 01:49:39,030 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And you would confirm that the seeming confusion would have been avoided had the Office of the Vice President only indicated the specific programs under both the good governance programs and the socio-economic delivery programs in the PFP. Objection. Objection. Speculative, Your Honor. Your Honor, again. A question. The 441 01:49:39,030 --> 01:49:43,810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: witness is smart enough. Mr. Ortonio, you may answer if you know. 442 01:49:44,550 --> 01:49:46,250 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Can you repeat the question, ma'am? 443 01:49:47,340 --> 01:50:12,930 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: The confusion would have been avoided, or would have been averted, may iwasan sana ito kung yung OVP nilagay doon sa dalawang PFP for 2022 and 2023 yung specific each and... every program that will be funded by the confidential funds for both years. Tama ba? 444 01:50:13,290 --> 01:50:14,030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Objection, Your Honor. 445 01:50:14,490 --> 01:50:16,010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What's the objection, Attorney Agustin? 446 01:50:16,170 --> 01:50:31,520 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The witness did not say there was a confusion, Your Honor. That was misleading. I didn't say, Your Honor, that this witness mentioned confusion. But her question says, so the confusion should have been avoided, Your Honor. The question is misleading. Because Your Honor, 447 01:50:31,620 --> 01:50:32,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: there was an 448 01:50:32,060 --> 01:50:38,740 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: inconsistency, Your Honor. She is interpreting and making conclusions out of the answer of the witness, Your Honor. 449 01:50:39,300 --> 01:50:48,520 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Attorney May, kindly reform. Yes, the witness did not say that he was confused. Reform, you can get to the same point. So, 450 01:50:49,580 --> 01:50:50,160 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Mr. 451 01:50:53,760 --> 01:51:11,860 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ortoño, kung nilagay yung each and every program that will be funded. Stinate doon sa dalawang PFP yung particular programs na paggagamitan ng confidential funds. Wala sanang question kung saan ito ginamit. Tama ba? 452 01:51:12,340 --> 01:51:22,480 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Objection, Your Honor. Same objection, Your Honor. Actually misleading kasi wala sanang questions. He did not say that there were questions on the confidential funds. Then I will drop the sana, Your Honor. 453 01:51:23,880 --> 01:51:42,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. Ortonio, if I may counsels, Mr. Ortonio, bakit hindi nilagay doon sa PIP yung particular ng good governance at socio-economic program na hindi ito bahagi doon sa original o regular na budget ng OVP? 454 01:51:43,040 --> 01:51:55,960 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sa pagkakaalam mo. Thank you, Your Honor. On the question, sir, on kung bakit hindi nilagay, sir, I would have no personal knowledge, sir, on why since the document was prepared by our 455 01:51:57,930 --> 01:51:59,670 Lemuel G. Ortonio: special disbursing officer. Sa 456 01:51:59,670 --> 01:52:08,010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: paggawa ng sagot sa OEM, sa palagay mo ba kung nilagay niya yun, hindi na masasama sa OEM, sa AOM yun? 457 01:52:09,080 --> 01:52:15,470 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on my understanding, sir, it could have helped, sir, to clarify. 458 01:52:16,440 --> 01:52:18,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. Your witness, counsel. 459 01:52:18,780 --> 01:52:30,090 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. Mr. Ortonio, yesterday and today, paulit-ulit mong sinasabi. na wala kang participation sa disbursement and implementation of the confidential funds. Tama ba? 460 01:52:30,230 --> 01:52:30,910 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 461 01:52:30,990 --> 01:52:38,350 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: So, hindi mo rin alam kung talagang saan ginamit yung confidential funds, kung anong programa dinisberse ito. Tama ba? 462 01:52:38,870 --> 01:52:39,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Objection. 463 01:52:39,690 --> 01:52:40,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Objection, Your Honor. 464 01:52:40,810 --> 01:52:42,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is the ground? Not covered by the 465 01:52:42,530 --> 01:52:42,770 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: cross. 466 01:52:43,820 --> 01:52:52,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's give her sufficient leeway, counsel. This is one of the questions in the minds of the senator-judges. Just to clarify, you may answer it, Mr. Ortonio. 467 01:52:53,180 --> 01:52:56,400 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, I would not have any personal knowledge. So 468 01:52:56,400 --> 01:53:15,820 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: hindi mo rin alam, based on your personal knowledge, na yung confidential funds ay hindi ginastos sa regular programs under the good governance program, tama ba? Kasi wala kang sabi mo, wala kang participation, wala kang personal knowledge kung saan dinisperse yung confidential funds, tama ba? 469 01:53:16,780 --> 01:53:18,560 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on my understanding, ma'am. 470 01:53:18,660 --> 01:53:24,450 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Wala ka rin personal knowledge kung paano in-implement. ang confidential funds. Tama ba? 471 01:53:24,590 --> 01:53:25,630 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. So 472 01:53:25,630 --> 01:53:37,830 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: hindi mo rin masasabi based on your personal knowledge na yung confidential funds ay ginastos sa mga programa other than the so-called regular programs of the good governance program. 473 01:53:40,710 --> 01:53:41,510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Objection, Your Honor. 474 01:53:43,270 --> 01:53:45,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is the ground, Christine? 475 01:53:45,630 --> 01:53:52,830 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Misleading, Your Honor. The witness did not say that the confidential funds were spent on the good governance programs of the OVP. 476 01:53:53,440 --> 01:54:12,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That was not the point, Atty. Christine. Witness may answer. If the presiding officer may... Mr. Ortonio, kung wala kang personal nakalaman kung paano ginastos yung confidential fund, eh di wala ka rin personal nakalaman kung ginastos sa regular na programa ng OVP yung confidential fund. 477 01:54:12,940 --> 01:54:18,200 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I do not have any personal knowledge, sir, on how the confidential funds was implemented. 478 01:54:18,380 --> 01:54:20,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: At all. Kung sa napunta yun, wala kang alam. 479 01:54:20,930 --> 01:54:21,870 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, sir. Kung 480 01:54:21,870 --> 01:54:24,990 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: napunta man sa tama o mali, madumi o malinis, wala kang alam. 481 01:54:25,050 --> 01:54:28,050 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I would have no personal knowledge, sir. Okay. 482 01:54:30,700 --> 01:54:31,220 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir 483 01:54:31,220 --> 01:55:05,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: here, tinanong ka din, bakit biglang, bakit nag-change yung program, the PPAs, for the 2023 PFP? When I say PPAs, I'm referring to the projects, plans, and activities. Tinanong ka kanina kung bakit... Yung programs, plans, and activities under the 2023 PPA naging socio-economic delivery program na dati under the 2022 PFP, ito ay good governance program. Tama ba? 484 01:55:06,360 --> 01:55:09,960 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. The way I understand the question, ma'am. 485 01:55:10,120 --> 01:55:28,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Wait lang. Ito yung tanong Mr. Ortonio. Ang sabi mo kanina, nag-change ng... PPA sa 2023 PFP para makover ang mas marami pang programa. Tama ba? 486 01:55:28,560 --> 01:55:31,080 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Ma'am, I'll clarify, ma'am. Wait, Mr. 487 01:55:31,200 --> 01:55:33,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ortonio, please just answer my question with a yes or no. 488 01:55:33,260 --> 01:55:34,880 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I answered, ma'am. Your 489 01:55:34,880 --> 01:55:35,100 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor. 490 01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:37,880 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Let the witness answer, Attorney May. Thank 491 01:55:37,880 --> 01:55:38,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you. 492 01:55:38,400 --> 01:55:53,400 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I answered the question earlier, ma'am, in the context of why there was a change in from good governance to socio-economic delivery in the context of what is reflected in the GAAA. So that's how I answered it, ma'am. 493 01:55:54,260 --> 01:55:54,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Pero 494 01:56:08,690 --> 01:56:16,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: you will confirm na wala ka rin participation dun sa pag-identify, sa pag-prepare ng PFP. Meron ka bang participation? 495 01:56:17,170 --> 01:56:18,610 Lemuel G. Ortonio: For the PFP, ma'am, no. 496 01:56:22,190 --> 01:56:29,110 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kanina, tinanong ka rin tungkol sa petition for review na finial ng OVP sa COA. Tama ba? 497 01:56:29,810 --> 01:56:30,530 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 498 01:56:30,830 --> 01:56:36,390 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: And you will confirm that this petition for review was denied by the COA? Tama ba? 499 01:56:36,550 --> 01:56:40,870 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. And subject for motion for reconsideration. Ibig 500 01:56:40,870 --> 01:56:48,170 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: sabihin, nang dininay ito ng COA, yung COA, it stood pat with its earlier decision, with its earlier findings. Tama ba? Your 501 01:56:48,170 --> 01:56:50,030 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Honor, if 502 01:56:50,030 --> 01:56:50,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: he knows, counsel, 503 01:56:52,040 --> 01:56:56,380 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes ma'am but then again subject for the filing of motion for reconsideration. 504 01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:31,055 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Gawa nito ay si Ginang Acosta, diba? Yes, ma 505 01:57:31,055 --> 01:57:31,060 Lemuel G. Ortonio: 'am. 506 01:57:31,060 --> 01:57:31,760 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Alam mo yun? Correct. 507 01:57:33,370 --> 01:57:43,520 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: You will confirm na ikaw, ang Chief of Staff, at ang Vice President, ang three top officers ng OVP, tama ba? 508 01:57:44,080 --> 01:57:46,180 Lemuel G. Ortonio: As Assistant Chief of Staff, ma'am. 509 01:57:46,860 --> 01:57:57,460 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kaya kayong tatlo, kayo yung top three officers ng OVP. Assistant Chief of Staff, Chief of Staff, and the Vice President herself, tama ba? 510 01:57:57,640 --> 01:57:58,220 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 511 01:57:58,990 --> 01:58:17,530 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sinabi mo na wala kang alam tungkol din sa mga bagay na iyon. At sinabi rin, sinasabi rin ng Chief of Staff na wala rin siyang alam tungkol sa mga bagay na ito. So tama bang sabihin na among the three of you, si Vice President lang ang nakakaalam? 512 01:58:17,810 --> 01:58:25,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let her finish the question. Witness will not answer the question until the objection is ruled upon by the Chair. Finish your question, Atty. May. 513 01:58:25,450 --> 01:58:26,090 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Don, Your Honor. 514 01:58:26,670 --> 01:58:28,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Christine, what's your objection? 515 01:58:28,650 --> 01:58:35,510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Misleading, Your Honor, and vague. First of all, the Chief of Staff has not yet testified with regard to the confidential funds. 516 01:58:36,250 --> 01:58:56,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Well, Atty. Christine, the Court took judicial notice of the proceedings in the House of Representatives where the Chief of Staff, Atty. Lopez, testified and I went through the TSN and such statements were made. along those lines by the Chief of Staff of the Vice President. Witness may answer. 517 01:58:57,430 --> 01:59:01,130 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Ma'am, can I be clarified with a question? Can you repeat the question, please? Okay. 518 01:59:03,320 --> 01:59:15,590 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Kanina, sinabi mo na ang top three officers ng OVP ay ikaw as Assistant Chief of Staff, Chief of Staff, at ang Vice President herself. Tama ba? 519 01:59:15,910 --> 01:59:16,690 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 520 01:59:16,810 --> 01:59:33,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ngayon, sinabi mo na wala kang alam tungkol sa drafting ng liquidation reports. Tama ba? Wala ka rin alam sa disbursement ng confidential funds. Wala ka rin alam tungkol sa recording relative to the confidential funds. Tama ba? 521 01:59:33,180 --> 01:59:33,680 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 522 01:59:34,260 --> 01:59:48,990 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Ito rin yung naging posisyon ng chief of staff. Wala rin siyang alam tungkol sa mga bagay na to. Ngayon, tama bang sabihin na dahil kayong tatlo ang top three na officers or officials 523 01:59:50,700 --> 01:59:59,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: ng Office of the Vice President, si Vice President lamang ang may alam tungkol dito sa mga bagay na to. Objection. 524 02:00:03,530 --> 02:00:04,430 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Speculative, Your Honor. 525 02:00:06,300 --> 02:00:13,660 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: If he knows, Your Honor, again, Your Honor, we don't want to belabor this point, Your Honor, but defense counsel keeps 526 02:00:13,660 --> 02:00:14,360 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: bringing 527 02:00:14,360 --> 02:00:33,640 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: us back to this point, Your Honor. The question does not become speculative simply because it's couched in a what-if question, Your Honor. And besides, Your Honor, this honorable court has already ruled and has already directed The witness to answer, Your Honor. 528 02:00:34,370 --> 02:00:40,510 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: The counsel would want the witness to speculate on the state of mind of the vice president. 529 02:00:40,590 --> 02:00:41,150 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: No, Your Honor. 530 02:00:42,370 --> 02:00:43,270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Let me 531 02:00:43,270 --> 02:00:45,070 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: answer it in two 532 02:00:45,070 --> 02:00:45,650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: points, Your 533 02:00:45,650 --> 02:00:45,850 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Honor. 534 02:00:45,950 --> 02:00:46,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please, counsel, briefly. 535 02:00:48,400 --> 02:01:27,180 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes. It's not speculative, Your Honor, because there was already an admission that they are the top three officials of the OVP. Now, the answer would be based on that admission, so it's not speculative. The question would only be speculative. It's completely conjectural, Your Honor. And second, Your Honor, the only reason I repeated the answer because the witness himself requested me to repeat. But prior to me repeating the question, the honorable presiding officer has already made a ruling. Your Honor, we will be squandering away time if every time I would repeat the question, the defense counsel would all of a sudden invoke another ground. for objection. 536 02:01:27,340 --> 02:01:33,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor, please. We're about to break for lunch, so let's end it on a good note. Finally, Attorney Christine. I will 537 02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:36,240 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: revise my objection, Your Honor. Incompetent. 538 02:01:37,760 --> 02:01:40,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Allow me, counsels. 539 02:01:43,620 --> 02:01:51,740 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Based on your testimony, Ortonio, you have no knowledge of spending, liquidating, and disbursing confidential funds. Correct? 540 02:01:52,020 --> 02:01:53,440 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, that's correct, Your Honor. 541 02:01:54,100 --> 02:02:04,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Gina Acosta also said she has no knowledge. Tama, alam mo ba yan? Nawala rin siyang alam sa paggastos ng confidential fund at kung paano ito naligudate. Would you know that? 542 02:02:05,050 --> 02:02:09,690 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on what I have read... Na testimonyo niya? Yes, sir. 543 02:02:10,470 --> 02:02:17,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Base sa pagkakaalam mo, alam ba ng vice president kung paano ito ginastos? 544 02:02:18,730 --> 02:02:27,460 Lemuel G. Ortonio: The way I understand it, sir, as the head of agency... I would understand that she knows the implementation, sir. 545 02:02:27,640 --> 02:02:30,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes. So si Cornel Lachica alam din siyempre? 546 02:02:31,090 --> 02:02:34,190 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. As the security officer. So 547 02:02:34,190 --> 02:02:35,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sa loob ng opisina 548 02:02:35,150 --> 02:02:51,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ng OVP, si VP Sara as head of agency lang ang nakakaalam, ikaw bilang assistant chief of staff, yung chief of staff mismo, walang alam, at si Cornel Lachica na ayon sa katanungan ni Senator-Judge Sotto kanina lang na hindi naman bahagi ng opisina ng OVP. 549 02:02:52,540 --> 02:02:52,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, 550 02:02:52,900 --> 02:02:53,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor. 551 02:02:53,360 --> 02:02:56,800 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Okay. That would be all for Redirect, Your Honor. 552 02:02:57,040 --> 02:03:08,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Do you have a short recross, Attorney Christine, or a long one? Do we pause for lunch or do you want to finish your cross before lunch? We don't have to call lunch at 12 o'clock. We can do it past 12. 553 02:03:11,520 --> 02:03:13,320 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: After lunch, Your Honor. You 554 02:03:13,320 --> 02:03:14,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: prefer after lunch? Thank you. 555 02:03:14,560 --> 02:03:15,200 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. 556 02:03:15,380 --> 02:03:49,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Then, since it's only 11.57, we have time for one more, Senator-Judge, if you want to avail of it. Yes, I see Senator-Judge Tulfo, the next one to interject raising his hand. The sequence would be Senator-Judge Rafi Tulfo, Senator-Judge Villanueva, the Senate President, Senator-Judge Ontiveros, Senator-Judge Lacson, Senator-Judge Padilla, and I just saw Senator Bam, Senator-Judge Bam. So we have time for one or two more senator-judges before breaking for lunch. Senator-Judge Raffi, you are recognized, sir. You may proceed. You have two minutes, sir. 557 02:03:49,640 --> 02:03:51,320 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 558 02:03:52,900 --> 02:04:02,580 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kayo po ay nag-reply sa AOM from COA for the check number 244027 dated December 2022. 559 02:04:05,620 --> 02:04:13,670 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Ano po yung proseso? na ginagawa niyo once kayo po ay nakatanggap ng AOM or disallowance. 560 02:04:15,080 --> 02:04:31,700 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Good morning, Your Honor. When we receive AOMs within the office, once we receive it, we inform the, of course, the chief of staff and, of course, also the head of agency of the AOM. We send them a copy for their information. 561 02:04:32,710 --> 02:04:33,770 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Do you investigate? 562 02:04:35,240 --> 02:04:54,590 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Once meron na pong instruction kung sino po yung magkakondak ng review, then that's the time po that we conduct a necessary review. Do you ask questions? Yes, sir, to the concerned na mga divisions. What 563 02:04:54,590 --> 02:04:56,490 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: questions do you ask, for example? 564 02:04:57,260 --> 02:05:11,320 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Usually, sir, we ask point-per-point on what is indicated in the AOM so that we can also address the concerns point-by-point. 565 02:05:11,480 --> 02:05:29,970 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Very good. Now, isa sa mga AOM ay observation ng COA. Kulang sa mga dokumento. Halimbawa, itong sinabi rito 170,000 at marami ito by the millions. 170,000 for the payment of reward, open and close medicines. 566 02:05:31,640 --> 02:05:42,780 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Did you not ask? Ano ba talaga to? Anong klaseng medisina binili? Kasi ang pagkakalam ko, meron kayong pera from confidential funds, binigyan nyo doon sa informant para siya bumili ng medisina. 567 02:05:43,080 --> 02:05:43,880 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. 568 02:05:44,180 --> 02:05:45,080 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Did you ask? 569 02:05:45,080 --> 02:05:49,780 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: kung anong medisina para sa medisina bibili ng informant, yung pera? 570 02:05:50,140 --> 02:06:09,740 Lemuel G. Ortonio: When the time na nag-consult po ako with the security officers, I did not ask anymore on the specifics but I asked on paano po yung naging process nila in terms of noong pag-release ng funds for the informants or for the agents. 571 02:06:10,080 --> 02:06:35,580 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sir, you are a very highly educated person from prestigious schools. Come on, it doesn't make sense. It defies logic. Tatunoy mo dapat, to protect Sara, kasi very close ka kay Sara, teka muna anong klaseng mga medisina ang binili, nasaan yung reseta. Kasi mali mo baka namin hindi binili ng medisina, baka binili ng drugs, whatever, baka may nagbulsan ng pera. Dapat, yun kasing kailangan ng ano eh, kuha diba? Resibo. 572 02:06:38,490 --> 02:06:47,300 Lemuel G. Ortonio: At the time po, sir, when I consulted with the security officer, sir. I was not able to ask anymore. Why not? 573 02:06:47,540 --> 02:06:52,780 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: It's part of your job. In fact, pumirma kay. Doon sa pag-reply mo sa AOM. 574 02:06:54,210 --> 02:06:55,870 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I asked, sir, for 575 02:06:55,870 --> 02:06:55,875 Lemuel G. Ortonio: your process. 576 02:06:55,875 --> 02:06:56,830 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So pumirma ka nakapikit? 577 02:06:57,230 --> 02:06:57,810 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. 578 02:06:58,850 --> 02:07:21,280 Lemuel G. Ortonio: No, sir, hindi naman po na nakapikit, sir, because nagtanong naman po ako sa security officer namin sir on how it was released or implemented on the ground. So kung ano po yung nabigay na information sir, yun po yung nailagay ko sa pag-draft po ng reply to the AOM. 579 02:07:21,540 --> 02:07:51,010 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi mo rin tinanong bakit pare-pareho yung signature sa different names. Ayon sa NBI forensic. Tapos pare-pareho yung handwriting sa different names. Parang isang tao lang nag-fill up. Meron pa nga walang signature at nag-receive ng by the hundreds of thousands each. Did you ask? Bakit mo tinanong? Bakit pusa? Bakit ito si Pagong? Pinagtatawa na tayo ng tao, etc. Why? Did you not ask? 580 02:07:51,230 --> 02:08:07,100 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, at that time, sir, hindi ko po nakita yung mga acknowledgement receipts, sir. I was only made aware of the acknowledgement receipt, sir, when it was already shown during the H.O.R. ng mga hearing, sir. 581 02:08:07,240 --> 02:08:25,800 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi kasi pag nagtanong ng attachment, sabi mo you ask questions point by point, you investigate, then kinuha mo sana yung mga dokumento and then pinakita sa'yo and then nagtanong ka point by point like you said. And then you're a very educated person, you should have asked a lot of questions to satisfy dun sa request ng COA. 582 02:08:27,020 --> 02:08:27,880 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, I didn't 583 02:08:27,880 --> 02:08:28,440 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: ask. 584 02:08:45,440 --> 02:08:49,920 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, at that time, sir, I did not see the acknowledgement receipts. 585 02:08:49,920 --> 02:09:05,820 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Come on, sir. Like I said, napakatalino mong tao sa credentials mo. datin professor, Ateneo, UP, di ba? And then, sorry sir, parang nagmaang-maangang ka. 586 02:09:07,480 --> 02:09:13,570 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Again, is it blind loyalty? Thank you po. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, sir. 587 02:09:17,700 --> 02:09:22,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Are you going for lunch or the Brostrom attorney, Senator-Judge Jewell? 588 02:09:24,940 --> 02:09:38,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: They're okay. I thought you were headed towards lunch already. Senator-Judge Villanueva, as the last senator-judge to interject before we break for lunch. You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed. 589 02:09:44,640 --> 02:09:45,340 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you. 590 02:09:48,900 --> 02:10:00,380 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Mr. Witness, you received a COA for approving the disbursement voucher, right? The 125 million. And your explanation is delegated to you for more than 1 million. Is that correct? 591 02:10:00,700 --> 02:10:03,020 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. There is an office order, sir. 592 02:10:04,230 --> 02:10:18,980 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ano yung extent of your authority? Ministerial approval or may responsibility din kayo na determine if this is lawful, properly supported, and authorized expenditure bago kayo pumirma? 593 02:10:19,460 --> 02:10:43,380 Lemuel G. Ortonio: There is also a level of checking, sir, if documentary attachments have been complied, sir, prior to the affixing my signature, sir. Like? Kung sa mga disbursement vouchers, Sir, dapat merong mga supporting documents on the reasons for the request. Like? 594 02:10:45,540 --> 02:10:56,320 Lemuel G. Ortonio: One of which, Sir, say for example, there is an activity design, Sir, which indicates kung ano yung mga activities to be done and the expenses for those activities. 595 02:11:10,840 --> 02:11:11,800 Sen. Joel Villanueva: At the 596 02:11:11,800 --> 02:11:23,080 Lemuel G. Ortonio: time, sir, I did not know, sir, kung ano yung arrangement nila ni Ms. Gina Acosta, sir. I just accompanied her to the bank, sir, per her request. 597 02:11:23,790 --> 02:11:25,390 Sen. Joel Villanueva: So, you have no knowledge? I 598 02:11:25,390 --> 02:11:26,550 Lemuel G. Ortonio: have no knowledge, sir. 599 02:11:27,070 --> 02:12:00,710 Sen. Joel Villanueva: You're the disbursement officer. You don't have any knowledge. So, wala ding written authority, no? Anyway, dun po sa testimony ni Ms. Acosta, sabi po niya, si Colonel La Chica was not banded, yet the confidential funds were released to him because he was supposedly na siya yung mag-implement ng activities on the ground. As sa... assistant chief of staff, as disbursement voucher signatory, officially approving the DVs. Are you aware of this arrangement? 600 02:12:01,250 --> 02:12:05,430 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I had no personal knowledge, sir, on that arrangement, sir. 601 02:12:05,950 --> 02:12:55,050 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Because if that's the case, you're saying it's like a ministerial duty for you. Although earlier you said it's not. Why would you allow that? Then next question, Asek. kayo po mismo yung umipirma dun sa November 30, 2023 OVP response to COA stating that all transactions involving the 125 million pesos were valid, proper, and regular and explaining that the 40 million medical and food aid was given to persons conducting nationwide surveillance operations bago po ninyo ginawa may factual Representation po ba kayo sa COAN? Ano po yung inyong ginawa, yung personal po ninyo na vinerify bago ninyo po ito ginawa? 602 02:12:55,650 --> 02:13:00,790 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sorry, sir. The question again, sir. Just to be clarified lang, sir. 603 02:13:01,210 --> 02:13:32,540 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Ulitin ko po yung question. Noong nag-respond po kayo dun sa COA that all transactions involving the 125 million were valid, proper, and regular, in-explain nyo din po yung 40 million medical and food aid was given to persons conducting nationwide surveillance operations. Bago po ninyo ito ginawa, yung factual representation po na iyon sa Commission on Audit, Ano po yung inyong personal na ginawa to verify all of this? 604 02:13:33,140 --> 02:13:47,800 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I consulted po yung our security officer on how the implementation was done on the field, sir. And what was relayed to me, sir, yun po yung nilagay ko sa draft for the reply. Ano po yung 605 02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:48,360 Sen. Joel Villanueva: hiningi nyo? 606 02:13:49,630 --> 02:14:29,690 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Information, sir, on how it was implemented, sir. So I asked kung, if I can remember it right, sir, because it was quite a long time ago, sir. I asked kung paano yung manner of release of the funds on the ground, sir, and especially yung sa medical and food aid, sir. And what was relayed to me, sir, was that The funds were released to the informants or the agents through cash and then based on their representation that they would need these funds for the purchase of medicines and supplies. 607 02:14:30,030 --> 02:15:12,160 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Binanggit niyo po dun sa AOM na lumabas na notice of suspension, wala pong nakalagay na misuse of funds, right? So ano po yung ginawa po ninyo after po lumabas ito? Despite the fact na wala ho kasi yung nakalagay na misuse of funds, pero nakalagay po doon yung locking of documentary records to support yung ginawa po ninyo, ano po yung inyong ginawa para makorect? For example, from AOM to before ma-issue yung notice of suspension, before ma-issue yung notice of disallowance, ano po yung inyong ginawa to suffice yung hinahanap po ng Commission on Audit? 608 02:15:13,000 --> 02:15:21,390 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based doon po sa mga points that were raised in the AOM. We provided answers for those. Before 609 02:15:21,390 --> 02:15:31,010 Sen. Joel Villanueva: you answer, presiding officer, you agree na yung binanggit niyo po, no? There's no such word misuse of funds doon sa mga AOM, NS? 610 02:15:32,070 --> 02:15:32,750 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. 611 02:15:32,890 --> 02:15:33,050 Sen. Joel Villanueva: ND? 612 02:15:33,390 --> 02:15:34,090 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. 613 02:15:34,230 --> 02:15:34,890 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Okay, sige po. 614 02:15:34,970 --> 02:15:44,410 Lemuel G. Ortonio: So we provided the documents that were required of us, sir, in support on the issues or concerns raised by the Commission on Audit. 615 02:15:44,990 --> 02:15:51,450 Sen. Joel Villanueva: And apparently, hindi po sila pumayag at hindi sila nag-agree because kulang pa rin po yung documents. 616 02:15:52,470 --> 02:15:57,570 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based po sa NS, sir, ND, sir, 617 02:15:59,110 --> 02:16:06,850 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Meron pa pong mga hinihingi ang COA, sir. And that's why, as a response to the ND, sir, we also supply those information. 618 02:16:07,410 --> 02:16:21,810 Sen. Joel Villanueva: Salamat po. Gusto ko lang sabihin that indeed yung confidentiality may limit what can be disclosed to the public, but it cannot erase yung accountability within the government. Salamat po, Mr. Riquelme. 619 02:16:22,150 --> 02:16:43,470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Villanueva. We shall declare and call a recess so that everybody can have lunch. Mr. Ortonio, your excuse from the witness stand. Kindly have lunch and we expect you back. We expect everyone back at 1 p.m. Your Honor, please. Yes, Senator, the Honorable Luistro. 620 02:16:43,830 --> 02:16:55,550 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Your Honor, may we just know if Colonel Boran Singh is already in the premises because we understand that the prosecution will be presenting him immediately after the recross of Mr. Ortoño. He 621 02:16:55,550 --> 02:17:03,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is not yet in the building and we will address that when we reconvene. There's nothing we can do about it anyway at this point in time. We will inform you 622 02:17:03,410 --> 02:17:03,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: of 623 02:17:03,530 --> 02:17:07,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the circumstances before we resume at 1pm. 624 02:17:08,870 --> 02:17:11,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We are on recess until 1pm. 625 02:17:12,430 --> 02:17:13,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly have a hearty lunch. 626 03:09:51,500 --> 03:09:52,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let's resume. 627 03:10:00,250 --> 03:10:06,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly situate Mr. Ortonio to the witness stand. Clerk of Court, Trusa. 628 03:10:31,800 --> 03:10:35,640 Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: You are under the same oath, Mr. Ortonio. Do you understand that, sir? 629 03:10:35,920 --> 03:10:36,440 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. 630 03:10:36,800 --> 03:10:40,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you. Attorney Christine, your witness for your recross. 631 03:10:40,940 --> 03:10:41,840 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. 632 03:10:43,380 --> 03:10:45,620 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Good afternoon, Mr. Ortonio. 633 03:10:45,940 --> 03:10:47,320 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Good afternoon, Mama Ingjapon. 634 03:10:48,200 --> 03:11:18,100 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Earlier, you were asked, to confirm that the PFPs for the fourth quarter of 2022 and the first to third quarters of 2023 did not reflect that the confidential funds were used for the safe implementation of the OVP's good governance program for 2022 and social economic delivery for 2023. Can you recall that? 635 03:11:18,440 --> 03:11:18,800 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 636 03:11:18,800 --> 03:11:21,960 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, Your Honor. Move to strike, Your Honor. 637 03:11:23,040 --> 03:11:24,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Why is it misleading, attorney? 638 03:11:24,580 --> 03:11:29,900 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Because, Your Honor, during the redirect examination, I never mentioned safe implementation. 639 03:11:32,650 --> 03:11:36,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Reform counsel, I don't recall the word safe as well. 640 03:11:38,130 --> 03:11:40,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But it was somewhere along those lines, I believe. 641 03:11:41,450 --> 03:11:48,850 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. But actually, that was what registered to me. But, can I continue, Your Honor? 642 03:11:49,220 --> 03:11:50,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may continue, Attorney Christine. 643 03:11:51,180 --> 03:11:53,460 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: But, Your Honor, we move to strike the answer of the witness. 644 03:11:54,280 --> 03:11:57,620 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, stricken off, reform your question, Attorney Christine. Thank 645 03:11:57,620 --> 03:11:57,625 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: you, Your Honor. 646 03:12:02,240 --> 03:12:07,780 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: I'm showing you the PFPs for 2022 and 2023. 647 03:12:10,140 --> 03:12:12,260 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Your Honor, they are exhibits 648 03:12:12,260 --> 03:12:14,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: D 649 03:12:14,540 --> 03:12:58,900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: -1-23 OVP for the PFP for the year 2022 and D-1-49-OVP for the year 2023. Do you have copies of those PFPs? Let's go to the 2022 PFP. Now, I'm directing you to the second column of the PFP. It says there, safe implementation. Let's go to the 2022 PFP. It says there's safe implementation of the OVP initiatives and confidence building. Do you see that? 650 03:12:59,260 --> 03:13:01,360 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. Based on the documents presented. 651 03:13:01,740 --> 03:13:06,460 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And that is under the table, under the heading expected outcome? 652 03:13:06,960 --> 03:13:07,820 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 653 03:13:08,000 --> 03:13:18,820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. Now let's go to the year 2023, CY 2023 PFP. Now I'm directing you also to the second column. 654 03:13:20,460 --> 03:13:28,040 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It says there's safe implementation of OVP initiatives and confidence building. Do you confirm that? 655 03:13:28,560 --> 03:13:29,200 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 656 03:13:29,340 --> 03:13:31,860 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And that is under the heading expected outcome? 657 03:13:32,320 --> 03:13:33,040 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 658 03:13:33,200 --> 03:13:58,070 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay. You were also asked about the supposed submission of the PFP together with your letter or the Vice President's letter to the DBM dated August 22, 2022. Earlier, you were asked. And in fact, you were asked also to refer to section or item 3.24 of the Joint Circular. 659 03:13:58,170 --> 03:14:13,270 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Do you recall that? Now, do you also recall that in a letter dated September 15, 2022, the DBM requested that you submit the PFP in relation to your request for additional funding? 660 03:14:13,630 --> 03:14:15,010 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. That's correct, ma'am. 661 03:14:15,110 --> 03:14:26,810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In fact, In compliance with such letter of the DBM, you submitted a copy of the PFP through your letter dated September 19, 2022. 662 03:14:27,510 --> 03:14:30,070 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. We transmitted that report, ma'am. 663 03:14:30,250 --> 03:14:50,810 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: And as earlier mentioned, during your cross-examination, your submissions to the DBM Okay, I will rephrase, Your Honor. As earlier mentioned, the DBM recommended the approval of your request for confidential funds to the Office of the President. 664 03:14:51,370 --> 03:14:52,390 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That's correct, ma'am. 665 03:14:52,530 --> 03:14:59,230 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: In fact, the Office of the President approved the issuance of confidential funds to the OVP. 666 03:14:59,410 --> 03:15:03,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let her finish the question, counsel. Are you done, Attorney Christine? What is the objection, counsel? 667 03:15:04,190 --> 03:15:07,330 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: That was not covered by the Redirect anymore, Your Honor. 668 03:15:07,930 --> 03:15:12,910 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In the discretion of the Court, we will grant latitude, counsel. Overall, the witness may answer. 669 03:15:13,110 --> 03:15:24,900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Thank you, Your Honor. Earlier also, you were asked whether you knew if confidential funds were used in the regular activities of the OVP. Do you confirm that? 670 03:15:25,220 --> 03:15:26,580 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, I was asked earlier. 671 03:15:27,480 --> 03:15:28,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: That was misleading, Your Honor. 672 03:15:29,160 --> 03:15:29,740 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: The 673 03:15:29,740 --> 03:15:43,840 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: question earlier, first, Your Honor, we move to strike because the question is misleading. What I asked was whether or not this witness has personal knowledge, not just any kind of knowledge, Your Honor, personal knowledge. 674 03:15:44,470 --> 03:16:02,530 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Okay, I will rephrase my question using the wordings of the counsel. You confirmed earlier that you were asked whether or not you have personal knowledge as to whether the confidential funds were used in the regular activities of the OVP. 675 03:16:02,730 --> 03:16:03,750 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. 676 03:16:04,430 --> 03:16:27,800 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: As the one who drafted the AOMs and the response to the AOMs and the response to the notice of suspension. Was there any findings in the AOMs? Was there any findings in the AOMs which relative to the supposed use of the confidential funds in the regular activities of the OVP? 677 03:16:27,880 --> 03:16:35,700 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Misleading, Your Honor. If you can recall. Misleading, Your Honor, because this witness could not have drafted the AOMs. The AOMs came from the Commission on Audit. 678 03:16:35,700 --> 03:16:40,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: She corrected herself, counsel, the response to the AOM. Yes, Your Honor. So I will 679 03:16:40,860 --> 03:16:53,400 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: repeat my question, Your Honor, for clarity. Now, as the one who drafted the responses to the AOMs, as well as the notice of suspension, 680 03:16:55,760 --> 03:17:06,880 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: If you can recall, was there any findings of the COA relative to the supposed use of the confidential funds in the regular activities of the OVP? Not 681 03:17:06,880 --> 03:17:12,320 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: covered by the Redirect, Your Honor. I never touched upon the AOMs during the redirect examination. 682 03:17:12,860 --> 03:17:21,100 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Same ruling, counsel. You may register in the court notes a continuing objection along these lines of questioning by the counsel. Witness may answer. 683 03:17:21,770 --> 03:17:33,950 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on the documents that we have received from COA, there was no any indication or any comment that the confidential funds were used for regular programs. 684 03:17:34,890 --> 03:17:37,490 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Nothing further, Your Honor. Thank you. 685 03:17:37,630 --> 03:17:55,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, counsel. We now proceed to the interjections of senator-judges before we proceed to administrative matters facing the court today. We recognize our distinguished Senate President. Next in line, um, Senate President, um, Senate President, Sen. Sherwin Gatchalian. You may proceed, sir. You have two minutes. 686 03:17:56,200 --> 03:18:19,870 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Uh, Mr. Ortoño, um, nakita ko sa mga records na anim na beses ko yung pumerma ng reply, uh, to COA. Itong anim na letters na ito, uh, ito ba ay nabasa, nakita? ipinakita kay Vice President Sara? 687 03:18:20,710 --> 03:18:31,590 Lemuel G. Ortonio: All the replies, sir, that were drafted were also sent to our Vice President for her information, for her reference and review. 688 03:18:31,750 --> 03:18:35,150 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So alam niya itong mga replies to kuha? Yes, 689 03:18:35,170 --> 03:18:35,830 Lemuel G. Ortonio: sir. Okay. 690 03:18:36,270 --> 03:18:44,360 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: And narinig ko rin sa inyong... testimony na kinausap niyo si Acosta at si Colonel Lachica. Yes, 691 03:18:44,380 --> 03:18:44,540 Lemuel G. Ortonio: sir. 692 03:18:45,000 --> 03:18:54,080 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: At base sa mga information nila, yun ang inilagay mo sa letter replies niyo tukowa. Tama? 693 03:18:54,300 --> 03:18:55,860 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, sir. That's correct, Your Honor. 694 03:18:55,880 --> 03:18:59,760 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pakinarate nga sa amin. Ilang beses niyo pala na-meet si Colonel Lachica? 695 03:19:00,780 --> 03:19:24,410 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, um... Sa mga replies po, sir, I cannot exactly remember how many times, sir, but I can say more than once or twice, sir, I was able to meet Colonel Lachica to ensure na I get the information from him, sir, and that I'll be able to draft properly the replies to the AOMs. So 696 03:19:24,410 --> 03:19:25,350 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: mga once or twice? 697 03:19:26,370 --> 03:19:29,330 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Around once or twice, sir. The exact 698 03:19:36,560 --> 03:19:43,680 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pagkikwento nga sa amin kung ano exactly yung kanyang sinabi sa inyo para madraft niyo itong reply? 699 03:19:49,800 --> 03:20:33,980 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I'll try to recall sir some of the issues that were raised on the AOM. So say for example sir on the AOM comment regarding the use of the confidential funds for medical and food supply sir. So tinanong ko po siya kung Paano po in-implement on ground yung pagbigay ng medical and food supplies to the informants and the agents? So from there po sir, na-mention niya sir na the funds were released to the informants and agents based on the representation that those funds will be used for the purchase of medical and food supplies. 700 03:20:35,400 --> 03:20:40,000 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kunento madya sa iyo na siya mismo ang nagbigay sa mga informants? 701 03:20:40,500 --> 03:20:57,200 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, wala na, hindi ko na po ma-recall, sir, if he mentioned specifically if siya po yung ang nag-distribute personally, sir, doon sa, on the ground, sir, or implemented the release on ground. 702 03:20:57,540 --> 03:20:59,500 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pero ang kwento niya sa iyo, 703 03:21:01,020 --> 03:21:05,840 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Cash ang ibinigay sa in-formance, hindi medical supplies or other supplies. 704 03:21:06,320 --> 03:21:07,740 Lemuel G. Ortonio: That's correct po, Your Honor. 705 03:21:08,040 --> 03:21:15,120 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Kwento niya ba sa iyo na meron ba siyang kasamang iba sa pagbibigay nitong cash? Kasi libo-libo yung acknowledgement receipts eh. 706 03:21:16,460 --> 03:21:34,500 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Hindi niya po nakwento specifically sir, although if I can recall sir, based on my recollection, meron po siyang na-mention na meron po siyang mga, hindi ko alam kung ano yung term niya sir, but Meron siyang mga people who go directly on the ground, sir. 707 03:21:34,680 --> 03:21:40,120 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pero kinonfirm niya na kinuha, kinonfirm niya sa iyo na kinuha niya yung 500 million pesos. 708 03:21:41,110 --> 03:21:42,690 Lemuel G. Ortonio: 500 million, sir? 709 03:21:42,890 --> 03:21:43,970 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yes, in four 710 03:21:43,970 --> 03:21:44,370 Lemuel G. Ortonio: different 711 03:21:44,370 --> 03:21:45,290 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: tranches. For 712 03:21:45,290 --> 03:21:54,710 Lemuel G. Ortonio: the different funds, sir. Ito sa my assumption, sir, na siya po yung napagbigyan ng funds, sir. 713 03:21:55,580 --> 03:21:57,200 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: In four different tranches? 714 03:21:57,240 --> 03:21:58,580 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Four different tranches, sir. 715 03:21:59,930 --> 03:22:12,430 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Nasabi niyo ba sa kanya na, tinanong niyo ba sa kanya na yung mga ibang acknowledgement receipts ay questionable yung mga apelido? 716 03:22:29,850 --> 03:22:47,830 Lemuel G. Ortonio: documentary evidence of payment, Sir. So I was not able to see it, Sir. So, noong binigay po sa akin ni Ms. Gina Acosta yung mga DEP, Sir, it was already in a sealed box, Sir, and then we submitted that together with our reply to COA. 717 03:22:48,010 --> 03:23:10,270 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Paano niya raw dinistribute yung mga pera? Kasi 500 million ito, thousands and thousands of acknowledgement receipts. Paano niya ikunin ito sa inyo na dinistribute niya itong mga pera? Sino itong mga informants niya? Kasi kayo gumawa ng AOM, nung reply to the AOM. So, I would assume na tinanong niyo yung methodology ng pagdidistribute niya. 718 03:23:10,490 --> 03:23:17,590 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, based on my recollection lang sir, he mentioned na, yun nga sir, meron siyang mga people sir who 719 03:23:26,870 --> 03:23:27,630 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yung 720 03:23:27,630 --> 03:23:36,650 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: pagpili ng informants, natanong niyo ba kung paano? At yung relevance ng informants dito sa inyong confidential operation? 721 03:23:47,770 --> 03:23:49,470 Lemuel G. Ortonio: check on him on that matter, sir. 722 03:23:49,550 --> 03:23:54,470 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pero yung DEP, yung Documentary Evidence of Payment, subject yan ng AOM, tama? 723 03:23:54,630 --> 03:24:00,150 Lemuel G. Ortonio: For submission, sir, we were required to submit the Documentary Evidence of Payment, 724 03:24:00,170 --> 03:24:04,730 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: sir. But did you, tinanong niyo ba sa kanya kung paano niya nakukuha itong DEPs? 725 03:24:05,390 --> 03:24:20,820 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, I did not ask anymore, sir. I just requested for the copies for the DEPs, sir, so that I can already submit it, sir, doon sa COA as an attachment to the AOM reply. 726 03:24:21,080 --> 03:24:28,870 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Paano kung yung DEP, Speke, paano kung yung kanyang narration sa iyo ay hindi totoo? Paano kung ganun ang situation? 727 03:24:29,570 --> 03:24:38,030 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Sir, at the time, sir, because he was designated as our security officer, sir, I... Designated 728 03:24:38,030 --> 03:24:38,650 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: by... 729 03:24:38,650 --> 03:24:55,390 Lemuel G. Ortonio: By the head of office, sir, Sara Z. Duterte, sir. So, I... It is of my... Sa tingin ko po, sir, na maayos naman po yung pagkakatrabaho ni Colonel Lachica doon sa pag-dispense niya ng duty as the security officer. 730 03:24:55,670 --> 03:25:28,850 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Last question, Mr. Presiding Officer. Bakit parang nagkukuha ko buong-buong yung tiwala ninyo sa kanya at kinuha nyo lahat ng information at yun ang ginamit nyo sa inyong reply to the COA? Bakit buong yung, nakita ko bakit buong yung tiwala, hindi kayo nag-prove? na mga additional questions considering na kayo ang nag-justify nito sa COA at kayo pumerma dito sa COA. So bakit parang kung ano sinabi niya, yun na lang ang linagay niyo sa inyong reply? 731 03:25:29,350 --> 03:26:06,560 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Well, first, sir, is because he's the security officer, sir. So, I believe, sir, na siya yung the best person that... can provide the information. And then, second, sir, as the security officer, sir, he was designated by our head of agency, which I believe also gave the trust and confidence to him to implement the activity. So, kung ano po yung na-mention ni Colonel Atchika sa akin during the time when I checked or asked for questions, yun po yung pinagbasihan ko for the drafting of the reply. 732 03:26:07,240 --> 03:26:09,240 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you very much, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you, 733 03:26:09,320 --> 03:26:17,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. Senate President. Senator-Judge Ontiveros is recognized for her interjections. You have two minutes, ma'am. You may proceed when you're ready. 734 03:26:24,330 --> 03:26:25,890 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. 735 03:26:28,410 --> 03:26:40,930 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Mr. Ortonio, tama po ba na lahat ng ginagawa ng OVP tungkol sa confidential funds? So, requests, amounts, justifications? 736 03:26:42,540 --> 03:26:51,980 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: use at pagsagot sa mga puna ng COA. Tama po ba na lahat ng ito ay dinesisyonan at inaprubahan ni VP Duterte? 737 03:26:53,380 --> 03:27:05,900 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on the mga replies, ma'am, yes, I was able to provide a copy to the head of agency, ma'am. Again, being the head of agency, ma'am, I provided her with the information. At 738 03:27:05,900 --> 03:27:09,260 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: base doon, dinesisyonan at inaprubahan niya ang lahat ng ito? 739 03:27:09,380 --> 03:27:16,100 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, and from that time, ma'am, we signed off on the document for submission to the Commission on Audit. 740 03:27:16,460 --> 03:27:20,360 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: With the last touch or final sign-off being that of VP Duterte. 741 03:27:21,300 --> 03:27:27,760 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Yes, ma'am. Being the head of agency, ma'am, we sought her approval on it, ma'am. At 742 03:27:27,760 --> 03:27:39,980 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: sangayon po ba kayo na bilang yung ganong head of agency na si VP Duterte ang responsable at pinaka-responsable sa lahat ng iyan? 743 03:27:40,660 --> 03:28:11,720 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Well, being the head of agency, ma'am, I believe that kailangan niyang malaman lahat ng mga nangyayari and I know, ma'am, na si Ma'am Inday really wants to know details, no, especially on implementation of the different activities that we do in the office. So, it is really... Meron talagang involvement in terms of ensuring that things are properly implemented within the office. And 744 03:28:11,720 --> 03:28:18,140 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: based on that knowing, batay sa kaalamang iyon, siya ang pinaka-responsable sa kabuang iyan. 745 03:28:19,120 --> 03:28:23,420 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Based on that, ma'am, being the head of agency, ma'am, I would say so, ma'am. 746 03:28:23,720 --> 03:28:28,360 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Alright. Ganong katagal niyo na po kilala si VP Duterte? 747 03:28:30,990 --> 03:28:38,930 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Siguro ma'am, more than 10 years ma'am. I started working together with her ma'am in 2008. 748 03:28:40,890 --> 03:28:48,090 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At saan po at, oh so almost 20 years pala. So at saan po at paano niyo siya nakilala? 749 03:28:50,220 --> 03:29:06,720 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Nakilala ko po siya, ma'am, bilang vice mayor sa Davao City, ma'am. And then, at the time, ma'am, when they were looking for several staff members for the office of the vice mayor, I submitted an application, ma'am. 750 03:29:08,990 --> 03:29:17,580 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At magkakilala rin po ba kayo ni Ms. Gina Acosta kahit bago po kayo nakipagtrabaho sa isa't isa sa OVP? 751 03:29:18,480 --> 03:29:36,720 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I knew of Ms. Gina Acosta, ma'am, during my employment, ma'am, with Sangguniang Panlungsod during the time ni Ma'am Inday as the Vice President, ma'am, and Vice Mayor, as the Vice Mayor. 752 03:29:37,080 --> 03:29:41,260 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So prior sa OVP, magkakilala at magkatrabaho na po kayo? 753 03:29:41,480 --> 03:29:42,060 Lemuel G. Ortonio: Kilala 754 03:29:42,060 --> 03:29:42,280 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: ko po 755 03:29:42,280 --> 03:29:45,460 Lemuel G. Ortonio: si Ms. Gina, nakikita ko po siya sa Sangguniang Panlungsod. 756 03:29:48,370 --> 03:29:56,610 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: What about po si Col. La Chica? Magkakilala na rin po ba kayo at magkatrabaho bago kayo magkatrabaho sa OVP? 757 03:29:57,290 --> 03:30:03,420 Lemuel G. Ortonio: I first knew of Col. La Chica ma'am when I was already with the Office of the Vice President, ma'am. 758 03:30:04,380 --> 03:30:16,760 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So, would you say po na nasa circle of trust kayo ni VP Duterte? Kayo ni na Ms. Gina Acosta, Colonel La Chica, at kayo nga po? 759 03:30:17,440 --> 03:30:33,800 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Well, ma'am, I can only answer for myself, ma'am. In terms of working relationship, ma'am, I would say that I have the trust and confidence of the VP in terms of doing duties that are assigned to me. 760 03:30:35,150 --> 03:30:41,050 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Pero sasabihin niyo ba na walang trust at confidence si VP Duterte kay Ms. Gina Acosta? 761 03:30:42,270 --> 03:30:55,570 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I cannot categorically say, ma'am, but I would say, ma'am, na could be, baka meron po, considering that there are also duties and functions that are being entrusted to them. 762 03:30:56,000 --> 03:31:13,140 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: In fact, kung mas candid pa po tayo, madali naman siguro kahit from an observation, hindi lang observation dahil malapit yung katrabaho na may trust and confidence. What about po si Colonel La Chica? Sasabihin niyo ba na walang trust and confidence si VP Duterte sa kanya? 763 03:31:14,460 --> 03:31:27,880 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Considering, ma'am, that he is the group commander of the Vice Presidential Security and Protection Group, ma'am, I would say, ma'am, I would say that She may have the trust and confidence. 764 03:31:28,620 --> 03:31:41,540 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Again, kung mas kaya nating maging candid, of course, lalo na kung security officer ng isang public official, of course, may trust and confidence. Otherwise, hindi ipagkakaloob ang kaligtasan sa kamay niya. 765 03:31:43,060 --> 03:32:05,010 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Lastly po, napaksa for now. Paano pong, and winding up Mr. Presiding Officer, paano pong sinama kayo ni Ms. Gina Acosta dun sa pag-encash nung mga cheque? Halimbawa, kung kailangan po ni Ms. Acosta ang tagabuhat ng bag nung cash, bakit po kayo in particular ang sinama niya? 766 03:32:07,450 --> 03:32:12,930 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Ang answer, ma'am, kung bakit ako po ang naisama ni Ms. Gina Acosta. Hindi lang 767 03:32:12,930 --> 03:32:17,030 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: naisama, pero sabi niyo, hiniling niya sa inyo na kayo yung sumama. 768 03:32:17,190 --> 03:32:17,710 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, ma 769 03:32:17,710 --> 03:32:18,410 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: 'am. So, bakit po? 770 03:32:19,130 --> 03:32:34,670 Lemuel G. Ortoño: When she requested me, ma'am, to accompany her, ma'am, sinamahan ko naman po siya, ma'am, because at the time na itanong niya na magpapasama siya, I was available naman, ma'am. And because of the request, ma'am, 771 03:32:36,370 --> 03:32:39,540 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I accompanied her going to the bank. 772 03:32:40,310 --> 03:32:49,770 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So simpleng nagkataon, walang reason kung bakit kayo yung isinama niya. You were the warm body who happened to be available. 773 03:32:50,700 --> 03:32:59,980 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Again, ma'am, I cannot say kung ano yung pinaka-reason behind po ni Ms. Gina, but when she requested me that I accompany her, ma'am, I said yes, ma'am. 774 03:33:00,320 --> 03:33:09,400 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Winding up on this topic, Mr. Presiding Officer, sinamahan niyo rin po ba si Ms. Gina Acosta noong iabot kay Colonel La Chica yung pera? 775 03:33:10,700 --> 03:33:18,600 Lemuel G. Ortoño: No, ma'am. I actually did not, I was not aware, ma'am, of the arrangement, ma'am, with Colonel La Chica, ma'am. 776 03:33:18,970 --> 03:33:40,950 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: At huli po on this topic, Mr. Presiding Officer. Kindly wind up. Winding up, Mr. Presiding Officer. Nabanggit niyo po na alam ninyo yung Joint Circular on Confidential and Intelligence Funds. Hindi niyo po ba naisip na violation ang pagbibigay ni Ms. Acosta kay Col. La Chica ng bulto-bultong cold cash? 777 03:33:42,220 --> 03:34:42,910 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Ma'am, based on, because again, ma'am, I was not aware of the arrangement, ma'am, but when I was doing the replies, ma'am, to the AOM, and of course, I also checked on the JC, ma'am, the pagpili po ng mga, ng person to implement the different activities of the confidential activities, and to designate a security officer is indicated also in the JMC and is within the authority of the head of agency. So, yun po yung pagkakaintindi ko at the time. So, with that, ma'am, I saw it that it was the manner of how the funds were handled, ma'am, was Following ay parang a regular process, ma'am, based on the JMC, based on my understanding. 778 03:34:43,370 --> 03:35:05,370 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: But then again, Mr. Ortoño, in closing, yung close reading ng JMC na sabi niyo nga, familiar kayo, would show na hiwalay pa sa usapin ng implementation, yung paghahawak ng pondo ay dun lamang sa isang katulad ni Ms. Gina Acosta at hindi pwedeng ipagkatiwala bilang accountable officer siya, hindi pwedeng ipasakamay sa iba. 779 03:35:07,820 --> 03:35:17,840 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Ang understanding ko po, ma'am, yes, the disbursement is with the special disbursing officer but the implementation, ma'am, was done through the security officer. 780 03:35:18,200 --> 03:35:36,250 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Of course. Hindi po ako po tinatanong yung implementation. Tinatanong ko po yung violation ng JMC na alam ninyo noong tinurn over ni Ms. Gina Acosta ang bulta-bultong cash kay Col. La Chica. Something that I simply think should not and could not have escaped your eyes, Mr. Ortonio. 781 03:35:39,310 --> 03:36:06,970 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, ma'am. Again, ma'am, based on the, for the 2022, ma'am, I could not recall that that was a concern, ma'am, in the AOMs, ma'am. Although for the 2023, ma'am, notice for this allowance, ma'am, it is subject for reply also on our end, ma'am, and we are currently drafting also a reply for that one. And 782 03:36:06,970 --> 03:36:24,850 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: of course, given the strict internal controls na siguro kayo yung pinaka may oversight sa opisina, even prior further communications from COA, after yung unang pagpansin nila sa last quarter 2022, eh di dapat nag-exert kayo ng higit na pagbantay the next three quarters of 2023. 783 03:36:26,650 --> 03:36:27,250 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Currently 784 03:36:27,250 --> 03:36:30,550 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: wind up, Senator-Judge Ariza. Yes, winding up now, Mr. 785 03:36:30,810 --> 03:36:56,360 Lemuel G. Ortoño: President. Your Honor, we were able to receive the audit observation memo for 2022 in October 4 of... 2023. So, we got the observations, ma'am. We already got the AOM, ma'am, and yung three-quarters for 2023 was already implemented. 786 03:36:57,160 --> 03:37:09,400 Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Again po, Mr. Ortonio, even prior any further communications from COA, dahil familiar kayo sa JMC, sabi nyo nga, dapat alam nyo na po yun. Nag-ansalamat, Mr. Ortonio. Maraming salamat po, Mr. Presiding Officer. 787 03:37:09,760 --> 03:37:16,000 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Lacson, You may proceed with your interjections when you're ready, sir. You have two minutes. Thank you, Mr. 788 03:37:16,080 --> 03:37:18,060 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Presiding Officer. Good afternoon, Mr. Ortonio. 789 03:37:18,140 --> 03:37:19,180 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Good afternoon, Your Honor. 790 03:37:19,420 --> 03:37:41,690 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Even setting aside your educational background and your work experience, it is not difficult to conclude na matalino kayong tao, your intelligent person, and unintelligent witness as well. So, kayo po yung Assistant Chief of Staff ng OBP. 791 03:37:42,180 --> 03:37:43,160 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, Your Honor. 792 03:37:43,260 --> 03:37:47,420 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Kayo rin yung concurrently administrative and financial officer. 793 03:37:48,340 --> 03:37:55,120 Lemuel G. Ortoño: As the assistant chief of staff, sir, I oversee the administrative and financial officer. So, 794 03:37:55,140 --> 03:37:57,720 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: effectively, kayo yung admin and financial officer? 795 03:37:58,540 --> 03:38:02,060 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. I oversee the admin and finance, sir. 796 03:38:03,360 --> 03:38:33,790 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Kanina kasi, upon questioning ni Atty. Christine, She kept referring to the regular programs under the office of the Vice President. Natatanda niyo yan? So it aroused my curiosity. Pinapool out ko sa staff yung General Appropriations Act ng 2022 as well as 2023. So we found out, papabasa ko sa inyo para hindi mat-chart sa oras ko. 797 03:38:35,750 --> 03:38:46,550 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: For 2022, Under the Good Governance Program, merong 621.6 million pesos. 798 03:38:48,240 --> 03:38:49,840 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pakibasa nyo na lang, kayo na lang. 799 03:38:50,710 --> 03:39:16,000 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sorry sir, hindi ko makita. For fiscal year 2022, under Good Governance Program, General Appropriations Act, 621.6 million. Please continue. And then, physical and financial plan for the confidential and intelligence funds. 125 million for the fourth quarter and then for fiscal year 2020 under 800 03:39:16,000 --> 03:39:20,810 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: the same program good governance program good governance 801 03:39:20,810 --> 03:39:21,930 Lemuel G. Ortoño: under the pfp 802 03:39:21,930 --> 03:39:24,390 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: under the pfp please continue and 803 03:39:24,390 --> 03:39:48,550 Lemuel G. Ortoño: then for fiscal year 2023 social economic program delivery 2.21 billion billion under general appropriations act and then 500 million um for 125,000,000 first quarter, 125,000,000 second quarter, 125,000,000 third quarter, and 125,000,000 fourth quarter. For 804 03:39:48,550 --> 03:39:52,650 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: the total of 500,000,000 more. 500,000,000. Next slide. 805 03:39:55,960 --> 03:40:08,990 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: I-juxtapose ko naman yung... Next slide. I-juxtapose ko yung 2022 at 2023 OBP physical and financial plans. 806 03:40:11,470 --> 03:40:20,000 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Confidential, intelligence, dalawang budget years. Pakibasa yung last quarter, physical target. 807 03:40:24,690 --> 03:40:26,530 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Baka pwede pong ma-request na. 808 03:40:27,590 --> 03:40:30,250 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pwede bang hindi chart sa time ko, ako magbabasa? 809 03:40:33,320 --> 03:40:53,570 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Okay. Letter A, number of identified areas with surveillance conducted and monitored. Letter B, percentage of activities. Implemented without and toward security-related incidents. 810 03:40:56,280 --> 03:41:06,440 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Paulit-ulit po ito. So sabi ko kanina, kayo naman ay mukhang matalinong tao at matalinong witness. Ano pong analysis niyo dyan? 811 03:41:07,800 --> 03:41:09,960 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Very simply, 812 03:41:10,180 --> 03:41:14,620 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: paano niyong i-analyze yung ganitong klaseng mga descriptions? 813 03:41:18,270 --> 03:41:20,950 Lemuel G. Ortoño: These are the activities that will be done, sir. 814 03:41:21,010 --> 03:41:32,720 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: I know. Pero kung i-analyze nyo, ano ibig sabihin ito? Hindi ba ito insulto sa common sense? Hindi man lang nyo binago ng content, at least si Colonel Achica siguro ito. 815 03:41:34,310 --> 03:41:50,230 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Unang-una, regular program, sana man lang, pagdating sa PFP, binago nyo yung nomenclature, tapos under the physical target, yung column, sana man lang, binago nyo yung activities. Copy-paste. 816 03:41:52,590 --> 03:42:07,000 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Again, ulitin ko, tingin ko sa inyo, matalinong tao, matalinong witness. Anong tingin nyo rito? Kung i-describe nyo in one word. Sir, I cannot. Ako na mag-describe. I think it's stupid. 817 03:42:09,530 --> 03:42:13,590 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Sana man lang, binago-bago niya ng konti. Maraming salamat, Mr. President Officer. 818 03:42:18,570 --> 03:42:22,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Next would be Senator-Judge Padilla. 819 03:42:26,630 --> 03:42:45,490 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maraming salamat po, ginuong tagapamahalang hukom. Meron lang po akong tanong sa ating saksi. Opo. Ginoo, sa palagay niyo po ba, karapat-dapat lamang na gumamit ng alias kapag confidential fund ang pinag-uusapan? 820 03:42:47,510 --> 03:43:25,800 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, as someone who does not know, sir, implementations of parang mga confidential activities on the ground, sir, I cannot Hindi po ako makakasagot ng maayo, sir, kung pwede po ba or hindi. But based on information that I got, sir, when I consolidated the answers for the AOM, sir, hindi naman po siya na-mention sa akin po ni Colonel Achica. But I know, sir, that 821 03:43:27,390 --> 03:44:12,090 Lemuel G. Ortoño: activities, confidential activities are considered to be sensitive. And there might be individuals or groups that need to be somehow protected, sir, because of the information that you would be getting from those people, sir. So, yun po yung tingin ko, sir. Hindi ko categorically masasabi na pwede po yung alias or hindi. But going back to the JMC also, sir, sa Joint Memorandum Circular, there is no specific provision, sir, that indicates kung paano po yung paglagay ng mga pangalan sa Documentary Evidence of Payments. 822 03:44:12,630 --> 03:44:13,610 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maraming salamat 823 03:44:13,610 --> 03:44:13,710 Lemuel G. Ortoño: po. 824 03:44:13,970 --> 03:44:16,230 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Meron po akong tanong sa Prosecution. 825 03:44:21,520 --> 03:44:24,480 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Magandang hapon po. Napakaganda po ng inyong ngiti. 826 03:44:25,010 --> 03:44:25,570 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Good 827 03:44:25,570 --> 03:44:25,910 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: afternoon 828 03:44:25,910 --> 03:44:26,490 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: din po, sir. 829 03:44:26,810 --> 03:44:40,330 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo, batid po ba ninyo ngayon mga petsa na to kung ano ang pinagdiriwang natin sa Pilipinas? Magmula po Ogo 19 hanggang 30. 830 03:44:41,980 --> 03:44:43,720 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Buwan ng wika daw po, Sir. 831 03:44:44,700 --> 03:44:46,520 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bukod po sa buwan ng wika, 832 03:44:47,100 --> 03:44:48,980 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: National Heroes Day. 833 03:44:50,100 --> 03:44:55,040 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ito po ay hango sa ating mga bayani. Tama po ba? 834 03:44:55,420 --> 03:44:56,060 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Opo. 835 03:44:56,140 --> 03:45:03,880 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Naniniwala po ba kayo na ang ating mga bayani ay may mga alyas? 836 03:45:07,030 --> 03:45:09,650 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kilala niyo po ba sila Dimasalang? 837 03:45:09,870 --> 03:45:12,250 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I'm sorry po sa aking history teacher. 838 03:45:12,330 --> 03:45:13,290 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ayan, opo. Hindi ka 839 03:45:13,290 --> 03:45:13,790 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: na po maalala. 840 03:45:13,790 --> 03:45:14,130 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ito po 841 03:45:14,130 --> 03:45:29,370 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ang pinakamagandang panahon para maipaalala po sa inyo na ang ating mga bayani ay gumamit ng mga alyas. Dimasalang, Siling Labuyo, Tikbalang, Tagailog, Maypag-asa, Buwan, 842 03:45:31,190 --> 03:45:47,710 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Magdalo, Leonquilat, Vibora, Lacambini, Paralitico, Dimas, Alipato, Liwanag, Balite, at marami pa pong iba. Ano po ang kahalagahan dito, palagay po ninyo? Ang alias po, anong kahalagahan? 843 03:45:48,390 --> 03:46:13,890 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: First, Sir, First, Your Honor, I cannot comment because I'm not sure of the circumstances surrounding their use of alias. Under the anti-alias law, Sir, Inaalaw naman po yung paggamit ng alias provided kailangan po nakabanggit din, nakadisclose kung ano yung real name. So it's not completely prohibited, provided. They also provide the real name. 844 03:46:15,130 --> 03:46:26,870 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Pakisagot lang muna po yung tanong ko bago po yung explanation po ninyo. Pakisagot lang po kung. Narinig niyo na po yung mga alyas na yan. Ngayon lang po niyo narinig. Some of it po, Your Honor, 845 03:46:26,910 --> 03:46:28,970 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: to be candid, some of it I've already heard. 846 03:46:29,110 --> 03:46:44,080 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Magmula po, 1892 hanggang 1896, ginagamit po nila ang mga alyas na yan. Nagkaroon lang po ng isang tridor, ang pangalan ay Teodoro Patiño, na nagbulgar sa Katipunan. Alam po ba niyo niyo? 847 03:46:44,430 --> 03:46:49,410 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor. But the circumstances then were different because we were under... 848 03:46:49,410 --> 03:46:51,830 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bakit po iba? Bakit po iba? Bakit po na iba? 849 03:46:52,030 --> 03:46:53,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: May gera po noon, Sir, and we were under occupation. 850 03:46:53,910 --> 03:47:13,010 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Wala po ba tayong gera sa NPA? Ang NPA po, merong mga alias. Meron pong Kakobra, Kaagila, Kalawin, Katigre, Kakapre, Kasirena, Kaadobo, Kasinigang, Kapansit, Katinola, Kashile, Kakamote, Kabawang, Kamaksi, Kalabuyo. 851 03:47:13,850 --> 03:47:14,450 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Strictly 852 03:47:14,450 --> 03:47:15,330 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: speaking sir, iba po 853 03:47:15,330 --> 03:47:16,430 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: yung internal 854 03:47:16,430 --> 03:47:20,550 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: armed conflict, iba naman din po yung war. 855 03:47:21,570 --> 03:47:35,540 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bakit po na iba? Pareho po itong clear and present danger sa atin. So ang gusto ko lamang pong ipaalam sa ating prosecution na napakahalaga po ng alias sa panahon ng... 856 03:47:36,150 --> 03:47:41,320 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kayo po, sagutin po niyo. Sa panahon ng... 857 03:47:41,320 --> 03:47:43,020 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Gera, sir. Your Honor. 858 03:47:44,430 --> 03:48:15,850 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ang confidential po. Ang pagkilos confidential ay napakahalaga at hindi po ginagamit ang pangalan at hindi po pumipirma. At alam niyo po ba, noong September 12, 1896, anong nangyari? Merong nagkaroon tayo ng 13 martyrs. Yung mga nagtraidor ay itinuro ang mga totoong pangalan, totoong lugar. kung nasaan yung mga sumusuporta sa katipunan. 859 03:48:17,110 --> 03:48:17,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: One 860 03:48:17,630 --> 03:48:18,230 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: last na 861 03:48:18,230 --> 03:48:18,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: lang 862 03:48:18,370 --> 03:48:18,510 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po. 863 03:48:20,410 --> 03:48:20,930 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: If 864 03:48:20,930 --> 03:48:37,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I may, Your Honor, just address your question earlier. With all due respect, Your Honor, the prosecution respectfully submits that whether the use of alias is allowed or not and whether it's necessary or not. To us, that is a non-issue because that was never raised by the... 865 03:48:37,650 --> 03:48:53,190 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Hindi po pwede maging non-issue sapagkat... Ito po ang ipinalalabas ng prosekusyon na may mga pangalan na mga katawatawang pangalan. Eh mas nakakatawa po itong mga pangalan nung mga nangyari noong araw. At isa 866 03:48:53,190 --> 03:48:56,030 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: pa po, isa na lang po kasi isa na lang po. 867 03:48:57,570 --> 03:49:01,710 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ito na lang po. Kailanan niyo po ba kung sino si Maricel Bonifacio? 868 03:49:03,360 --> 03:49:04,620 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: To be candid, Your Honor. 869 03:49:06,040 --> 03:49:09,350 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sino po? Si Binigno Aquino. 870 03:49:11,300 --> 03:49:16,720 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Junior, si Ninoy, siya mismo may alias. Maraming salamat po. 871 03:49:16,880 --> 03:49:26,200 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor, if I just may, Your Honor, just to set the record straight, because it was made with all due respect to the Senator-Judge. Mr. Presiding 872 03:49:26,200 --> 03:49:35,370 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Judge, allowed ba yun? I was about to make a ruling. Maraming salamat po. There was no question posed or poised. 873 03:49:37,560 --> 03:49:47,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. May? Let's proceed to the next senator-judge who will interject. By the way, did you intentionally get rid of the platform? 874 03:49:48,710 --> 03:49:57,910 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Yes, Your Honor, because you were not expecting that I'd be called again, Your Honor, to make way for the honorable chair of the panel of prosecutors, Your Honor. 875 03:49:57,950 --> 03:50:05,290 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Understood. Senator-Judge Aquino, you're recognized for your interjection. You may proceed, sir. When you're ready, you have 10 minutes. 876 03:50:07,240 --> 03:50:25,220 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So bago po yung two minutes, Mr. Presiding Officer, tama po, si Ninoy Aquino po ang kanyang alias ay Marcial Bonifacio para makauwi po siya sa Pilipinas nung nasa Boston siya. Pero wala naman ho siyang confidential funds na wala ho siya sa mga AR na confidential funds. Lilinawin ko lang ho. 877 03:50:25,680 --> 03:50:26,140 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. 878 03:50:27,240 --> 03:50:44,800 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Pagating ho sa prosekyusyon, ang posisyon ng prosekyusyon, yung mga pangalan na itutuong tao, diba? Correct, no? You have not really mentioned aliases in any of your... wala. Could you respond quickly? We have talked about aliases. Is the prosecution talking about aliases? 879 03:50:45,100 --> 03:51:01,290 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: That was never our point, Your Honor. In fact, the point of the prosecution is that that was never raised by the defense either in their answer. or in their pre-trial brief, Your Honor. So to us, that should be a non-issue because even them, they never claimed that in any of their pleadings before 880 03:51:01,290 --> 03:51:01,670 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: this honorable 881 03:51:01,670 --> 03:51:02,190 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: court. 882 03:51:02,430 --> 03:51:54,370 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, klaklaruin ko lang ha. Ang siyang tao lang pong nagsabi na alias po sila, si Ms. Gina Acosta, in her testimony. Kaya na po, sabi niyo rin na Mr. Ortonio, na hindi siya alias or hindi niyo alam. But si Ms. Gina Acosta, in her testimony, did admit that in her perspective, these are aliases. Just for the record po. Okay. So, ito po yung mga tanong ko po. Sana po ito lang yung two minutes ko, Mr. Presiding Officer. So, unang-una, Mr. Ortonio, you're very competent. Thank you for your answers. And I want you to answer just very candidly, no? Ano po yung naging personal reaction ninyo noong napag-usapan na yung possible misuse of the confidential funds at noong na-bring up na yung mga tawagin na nating katawatawang pangalan na parang klaro naman ay hindi naman talaga totoong tao. Ano po yung personal reaction po ninyo? 883 03:51:56,240 --> 03:52:14,340 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Initial reaction, sir, would be, of course, merong questions, sir, no? There would be questions. But, again, sir, I go back to the presumption, sir, that there is regularity in terms of the implementation, sir. 884 03:52:14,480 --> 03:52:48,260 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. So, May I ask, since you're in the top leadership of the OVP, noong nabibring up na to, ano yung personal reaction, kung alam nyo lang, ng vice president, ng chief of staff, other leaders in your group, noong napagusapan na posibleng nabigay yung pera sa mga kakaibang pangalan o baka hindi totoong tao, what was your reaction? What was their reaction? Would you know? Nag-meeting ba kayo? Did you call for an emergency meeting? Did you have a... A huddle in your office to talk about this? 885 03:52:48,920 --> 03:53:26,340 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, because yung AOM sir, because it was sent to my office sir. pinapersonally received sa akin, Sir, on behalf of the Vice President. Of course, I provided a copy to the Chief of Staff, Sir, and the Vice President. Ang naging instruction lang naman po sa akin, Sir, was to respond to the AOMs and make consultations with the Special Disbursing Officer and Security Officer para masagot yung mga concerns or issues raised by COA. Okay. 886 03:53:26,420 --> 03:53:43,640 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Yan yung mga actions niyo, Mr. Ortoño. I'm asking about your reaction. Kinabahan ba kayo? Were you worried? Were you concerned? Was there any concern shown by the Vice President, by the Chief of Staff, by people in your office na posible itong perang ito ay hindi na gamit sa tama? 887 03:53:44,660 --> 03:53:56,980 Lemuel G. Ortoño: On the matter of concern, sir, I think there is a concern considering that there is already an immediate instruction, sir, to reply to the AOM. 888 03:53:57,000 --> 03:53:57,200 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: That's 889 03:53:57,200 --> 03:54:17,170 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: the AOM. Let's go to the bringing up of these names in Congress. Noong lumabas na yung Piatos, Pusa, Pagong, mga ganyan, were you concerned na yung pera ng bayan posibleng hindi na gamit sa tama at ito'y Pinirmahan mo at ito ay nakapangalan kay sa inyong opisina, for example, were you concerned? Um, 890 03:54:17,350 --> 03:54:45,460 Lemuel G. Ortoño: meron, ano sir, immediate reaction sir, yes sir, but, but noong, as the hearings went on sir, parang binabalikan ko yung AOM sir. Hindi kasi po siya na-raise doon sa AOMs. So, parang nabawasan po yung concern ko. Personal concerns ko with those acknowledgement receipts. 891 03:54:45,500 --> 03:54:54,020 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Did you call for an internal investigation after na-reveal yung mga pangalan na kakaiba? Nagpatawag ba kayo ng investigasyon sa inyong opisina? 892 03:54:54,260 --> 03:54:59,040 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I personally did not, ano sir, hindi na po ako nagpatawag. Did your office 893 03:54:59,040 --> 03:55:00,520 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: call for an internal investigation? 894 03:55:01,460 --> 03:55:12,220 Lemuel G. Ortoño: On that matter, sir, I do not know, sir, if there is... An instruction coming from the head of agency, sir. But personally to me, sir, none, sir. 895 03:55:12,540 --> 03:56:14,210 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay. So, ito kasi, Mr. Ortoño, sa aming, well, sa aking opisina, more than 10 years ago, meron kaming nahanap na isang staff na ibang resibo yung ginamit sa liquidation. Wala pa atang 5,000 pesos to sa totoo lang. Hindi nga niya binulose. Meron siyang dapat hotel receipt. Nawala niya. Gumamit siya ng hotel receipt ng ibang tao. That already made, that already elisted an internal investigation on our part. In the end, pinailis namin yung staff na yun na kilala namin, kaibigan namin. Limang libo lang yun. So the common response we are looking for is that kapag pera to ng bayan, action ka agad at hanapin nyo talaga kung saan nagamit tong pera to. Kaya I'm really wondering, what were the actions and reactions of people? Ito yung tanong ko rin, no? Mahalaga ba sa inyo, mahalaga ba sa iyo, sir, na yung perang ito ay nagamit sa tama? Na hindi ito nagamit sa mali o na bulsa lang? 896 03:56:14,690 --> 03:56:31,870 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. It is important to me, sir, because in the years na nakasama ko rin po si Vice President Sara Z. Duterte, sir, she also would want na money is spent properly for what it is intended to be used for. 897 03:56:32,240 --> 03:57:27,800 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Okay, last question, Mr. Presiding Officer. During all of this time, pinatawag mo ba si Colonel La Chica o pinatawag ba siya ni Chief of Staff Lopez or ni Vice President? Would you know? Kinausap mo ba? Tinong mo ba? Colonel, itong mga pangalang ito, sino ba talaga ito? Totoo ba ito? Bakit nakalagay medicine pero cash talaga yung binigay? Kasi sa totoo lang sir, yung nakalagay doon, gamot? Pero cash ang binigay na pambili ng gamot, cash pa rin yun. Diba? So in short, yung 500 million, parang puro cash yun. Wala man talagang supplies or tables and chairs because that presupposes na ang binili niyo yung tables and chairs or supplies. You actually gave cash na 500 million. Pinatawag niyo po ba si Colonel La Chica? Tinanong? As public officers, we have to exercise the diligence of a good father of a family, no? That's in our oath. So, pinatawag niyo po ba ng inyong opisina at pina-explain kung nasaan ba itong pera nito? 898 03:57:28,480 --> 03:57:37,520 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I was only able to request na makausap si Colonel Atchika in relation only to the response to the AOM, Sir. 899 03:57:37,720 --> 03:57:44,500 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: So, hindi niyo po natanong itong mga specific questions na ito dun sa mga specificong mga pangalan, mga AR, mga ganyan? 900 03:57:44,770 --> 03:57:55,990 Lemuel G. Ortoño: At that time, sir, when I was drafting the AOM, sir, no, sir, because I was no, I had no knowledge, sir, of the AR, sir. Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer. 901 03:57:56,310 --> 03:58:00,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Aquino. Senator-Judge Erwin Tulfo is recognized. 902 03:58:09,510 --> 03:58:10,030 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank 903 03:58:10,030 --> 03:58:10,910 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: you, Presiding Officer. 904 03:58:12,900 --> 03:58:13,780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Inunti Stigo. 905 03:58:15,780 --> 03:58:19,120 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alam niyo ba na si Colonel La Chica ay hindi po banded? 906 03:58:20,810 --> 03:58:25,310 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: And therefore, wala pong karapatan na mag-disburst ng CIF. Alam niyo po ba ito? Hindi. 907 03:58:26,010 --> 03:58:35,610 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I know that si Colonel Atchika po is not bonded and as far as I know po, ang special disbursing officer po is si Ms. Gina Acosta. 908 03:58:35,890 --> 03:58:52,910 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Pero sa pagkaalam po ninyo, pwede po siyang humawak na ganyang kalaking pera at ayaw mo ninyong sabihin na disburst, kundi implementation na may... Kahit na hindi po siya banded, pwede siya mag-disperse or mag-implement ng ganung kalaking pera. 909 03:58:54,150 --> 03:59:04,190 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I believe sir, with his designation as the security officer, sir, he was tasked to implement the different activities on ground. 910 03:59:04,710 --> 03:59:16,070 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: So, hindi niyo na po kinistiyon si Ginang Acosta or si Colonel La Chica dahil may instruction po sa task. Tama po ba yun? Is that to my understanding? 911 03:59:16,800 --> 03:59:27,920 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Hindi ko na po natanong, Sir, because there is already a delegation or designation for the both of them for the different tasks that they will be doing. 912 03:59:27,920 --> 03:59:28,540 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Saan po galing 913 03:59:28,540 --> 03:59:30,320 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: yung designation, Sir? Can 914 03:59:30,320 --> 03:59:37,640 Lemuel G. Ortoño: you recall my memory? The designation po, Sir, came from the head of agency, Sir, the Vice President. Alright. Sir, 915 03:59:37,780 --> 03:59:39,120 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: sabi mo kanina... 916 03:59:41,190 --> 03:59:43,250 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kalimutan ko nasa break room po kanina. 917 03:59:45,030 --> 03:59:50,690 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Sabi mo wala kang alam papano ginasto sa confidential fund when nag-usap po tayo. Tama po ba yun? 918 03:59:50,930 --> 03:59:51,450 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, 919 03:59:51,450 --> 04:00:14,060 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: sir. You have no idea. Pero I just was wondering, bakit kayo pong sumasagot ng audit observation memorandum o AOM ng COA? Kung wala kayong alam sa paggasta ng confidential fund, gayon ang AOM po, tama po ba, correct me if I'm wrong, ay ito po ay kumikwestyon sa mga errors, exception, or deficiency sa audit po ng COA? 920 04:00:16,570 --> 04:00:28,690 Lemuel G. Ortoño: For my office po, sir, whenever we receive AOMs, for our officers, OVP, when we receive AOMs, sir, it's the chief of staff and or the 921 04:00:30,340 --> 04:00:41,120 Lemuel G. Ortoño: It's the chief of staff or the chief of staff and the assistant chief of staff, sir, who responds to AOMs on behalf of the institution. 922 04:00:41,680 --> 04:00:44,780 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Pero sabi niyo po, kayo po sumasagot ng AOM. 923 04:00:45,400 --> 04:00:51,140 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. That's part of the tasks that are given to us, sir, together with the chief of 924 04:00:51,140 --> 04:01:04,600 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: staff. I was just wondering kanina po, sir, how can you answer questions, queries, kung wala na po kayong alam? Paano niyo po masasagot ng tama? The only way to do that is you will lie. 925 04:01:05,920 --> 04:01:22,940 Lemuel G. Ortoño: That's why po, sir, meron pong instruction that was given to me, sir, by the head of agency, sir, to talk with the special disbursing officer and the security officer para makuha po iyong mga information from them and malatag po doon sa reply to the AOS. So your 926 04:01:22,940 --> 04:01:27,300 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: reply was only based on what they said, what they told you. That's correct, sir. 927 04:01:30,110 --> 04:01:38,170 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: documents, recibo, etc. None of that. Just plainly na. Ginong Antonio, dito po namin ginastos yung pera. Blah, blah, blah. 928 04:01:38,310 --> 04:01:41,910 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. I consulted with them, sir, for their replies. Hindi 929 04:01:41,910 --> 04:01:56,190 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: ka ba kahit na katiting man lang na duda, sir, na medyo maliyat na paggasta ng confidential fund ng OBP ni Colonel Achica? Wala, hindi mo lang sumagi sa'yo na medyo may duda ka na something is wrong here? Wala man lang? None at all? 930 04:01:56,750 --> 04:02:26,260 Lemuel G. Ortoño: At that time, Sir, may mga, yung mga issues naman, Sir, and when I consulted with the security officer, he was able to provide a reply naman, Sir. So, although yes, initially, parang you would question, Sir, no? But with the replies that I got from the security officer, Sir, we were able to respond to them already to COA. 931 04:02:26,940 --> 04:03:07,430 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: The reason why I asked you that, ginaong witness, was that nandiyan po kayo, syempre po, yung tiwala ng VP po sa inyo. Di mo lang hindi nyo naisip na, teka mali ito, baka sumabit si VP Sara, sumabit ng OVP. Baka hindi naman talaga ginagastos ni Carla Chica, baka ay hindi talaga napupunta sa kongkans. Di mo lang ninyo naisip or didn't you tell the Vice President, Ma'am, ano ho kaya? Pwede bang tanungin ninyo ito or pwede bang silipin? No, no, no. Hindi mo lang nakausap si VP. Hinayaan nyo lang, hinayaan na tumuloy-tuloy for several months, several quarters yung ganitong klase expenditure. Nobody informed the Vice President. 932 04:03:07,980 --> 04:03:21,960 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, hindi naman po na hinayaan, Sir, because all the replies naman po, Sir, are also given to the Vice President for her review and final approval before it is being signed and to be sent to the Commission and Audit. So, when 933 04:03:21,960 --> 04:03:34,440 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: you signed the report, Sir, alam na po ni VP? Is that what you're saying? Nakita niya na po na pinambili ng ganito, ng information, ng gamot, ng mga lamesa, na alam na ng VP before you signed it? 934 04:03:34,690 --> 04:03:38,990 Lemuel G. Ortoño: before I signed it, sir. So dumaan na sa table ni VP. Yes, sir. Kindly 935 04:03:38,990 --> 04:03:39,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: wind up, 936 04:03:39,350 --> 04:03:40,870 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Senator-Judge Irwin. Thank you, 937 04:03:40,870 --> 04:03:44,370 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Senator-Judge 938 04:03:44,370 --> 04:03:51,650 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Irwin. To avail of the first round, Senator-Judge Marcos. You are recognized, ma'am. You may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes. 939 04:03:53,330 --> 04:04:32,000 Sen. Imee Marcos: Yes, maraming salamat, Mr. Ortoño. Medyo nalilito lang po kami dahil paiba-iba yung explanation. Nagumpisa sa PFP. Bakit? Iba yung 2022 PFP kung saan maliwanag na nakasaad good government lamang. Pero nung nagsulat kayo yung request ninyo sa DBM noong 22 August 2022, ang sinabi na ay dalawang bagay. Good governance plus conduct of official engagements and functional representation in international and domestic events. 940 04:04:33,790 --> 04:04:40,430 Sen. Imee Marcos: Bakit nagbago na siya samantalang dapat yung request talagang parehong-pareho dun sa PFP? 941 04:04:41,390 --> 04:04:55,190 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Ma'am, I cannot specifically answer, ma'am, on kung bakit po good governance lang po yung nailagay doon because again, ma'am, I was not a, hindi po ako part nung pag-craft nung Nung PFP. Nung PFP po, ma'am. 942 04:04:55,190 --> 04:04:55,370 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Hindi ka pa 943 04:04:55,370 --> 04:04:57,350 Sen. Imee Marcos: kasali noon sa PFP? Ganun ba yun? 944 04:04:57,810 --> 04:05:00,610 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, ma'am. I'm not part of the drafting of the PFP, ma'am. 945 04:05:00,610 --> 04:05:05,270 Sen. Imee Marcos: Pero hindi kayo nasabihan na hindi itong matching doon sa PFP yung request na sinulat? 946 04:05:06,010 --> 04:05:10,770 Lemuel G. Ortoño: There was no comment, ma'am, when we submitted it to the DBM, ma'am. 947 04:05:11,120 --> 04:05:34,540 Sen. Imee Marcos: Tapos, noong certification na, bala liquidation na to, noong 17 October 2023, nagbago na naman. Ang sinabi na naman, hindi good governance, hindi na conduct of official engagement, ang sabi na no untoward incident in the implementation of OVP programs. Bakit pa iba-iba yung wording, maski sa certification? 948 04:05:35,830 --> 04:05:46,110 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Again, ma'am, for the certification, ma'am, I cannot provide information, ma'am, because it was the security officer who handled it, Your Honor. 949 04:05:46,510 --> 04:06:09,610 Sen. Imee Marcos: Akala ko may supervisory and administrative power ka kasi nga assistant kayo ng vicepresidente. Hindi ba nagre-report sa inyo yung mga security officer kahit papano? Kasi... Madadamay ka rin yan sa COA. Bakit pa iba-iba? From PFP to budget request to certification, hindi nagtutugma. 950 04:06:10,820 --> 04:06:52,800 Lemuel G. Ortoño: First, ma'am, on the matter of the different wordings, ma'am, if I can recall, Your Honor. It was never raised also in the audit observation memo ma'am. So it is something na we did not anymore look into when we were preparing the replies. And then for the second concern ma'am, if the security officer is reporting to me ma'am, unfortunately ma'am, the security officer does not report to me. I only handle overall supervision for the administrative and financial services and strategy management office in relation to regular funding po, ma'am. I 951 04:06:52,800 --> 04:06:56,360 Sen. Imee Marcos: see. So yung security officer, kanino nagre-report? 952 04:06:56,680 --> 04:07:04,140 Lemuel G. Ortoño: The security officer, ma'am, directly reports to the head of agency, vice president. So 953 04:07:04,140 --> 04:07:04,160 Lemuel G. Ortoño: kaya sa 954 04:07:04,160 --> 04:07:08,180 Sen. Imee Marcos: iyo, Mr. Ortonio, at saka kay Atty. Lopez, hindi na nagre-report yun? 955 04:07:08,660 --> 04:07:14,840 Lemuel G. Ortoño: In the performance po ni Col. Chica as security officer, no longer, ma'am. 956 04:07:15,520 --> 04:07:24,420 Sen. Imee Marcos: So, masasabi mo ba na wala kang personal knowledge kung saan ginastos ni Colonel Natchika dun sa confidential funds? 957 04:07:25,040 --> 04:07:27,620 Lemuel G. Ortoño: No, ma'am. I would have no personal knowledge, ma'am. 958 04:07:27,820 --> 04:07:30,000 Sen. Imee Marcos: Okay, that will be all. Maraming salamat po. 959 04:07:30,240 --> 04:07:30,900 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Thank you, Your Honor. 960 04:07:30,960 --> 04:07:38,060 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator-Judge Marcos. Senator-Judge Rafi Tulfo, you are recognized, sir. You may proceed when you're ready and you have two minutes. 961 04:07:46,530 --> 04:07:51,590 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mr. Witness, sakitin ba ang marami sa inyong mga... 962 04:07:53,560 --> 04:07:56,280 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: informants. May mga malalang sakit ba sila? 963 04:07:56,620 --> 04:07:59,620 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, that I would have no personal knowledge po. You 964 04:07:59,620 --> 04:08:46,830 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: should! Kasi ito, ang dami, 170,000, 50,000, 200,000 each informant. So para mabigyan nyo ng napakalaking halaga bawat isang informant pambili ng gamot, dapat magtataka ka. Anong gamot kayong bibili nito? Bilang isang inteligenteng tao, I know you're very intelligent, you're very smart. Did you not try to ask? Or at least nagtaka? Baka may reuma, arthritis, nagpapa-chemo. You should have asked. At kung mga bata nga, inquisitive yung mga bata, anong gamot ang bibilhin mo paghingin mo ang pera ng bata? Kunyari, toy, pahingin pera, bili akong gamot. Anong gamot bibilhin mo, kuya? Bata yun, grade 1. Ikaw pa kaya? Why? 965 04:08:48,030 --> 04:08:52,500 Lemuel G. Ortoño: At that time po, sir, I did not ask anymore. kay Colonel Atchika, sir. 966 04:08:52,600 --> 04:08:52,980 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Why not? 967 04:08:54,360 --> 04:09:03,320 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Because, sir, I parang I already gave my I trusted what the security officer mentioned to me, sir. 968 04:09:03,440 --> 04:09:06,780 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: But it is your responsibility to know. Kasi ikaw po yung pinamadun sa AOM. 969 04:09:07,680 --> 04:09:18,080 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, in terms of the responsibility to know, sir, I'm not sure, sir, if I'm the one who's responsible to know, sir. So you're not sure 970 04:09:18,080 --> 04:09:32,290 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: that means Ayoko nang gumamit na pang salita. It's unbelievable. It defies logic talaga really, sir. You're not really making sense at all. Anyway, move on tayo. 971 04:09:34,040 --> 04:09:35,820 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Yung alam mo 972 04:09:35,820 --> 04:09:41,560 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: naman sa DOH nagbibigyan ng libre gamot. Meron kayo mga medical assistance program. 973 04:09:42,040 --> 04:09:42,800 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. 974 04:09:43,480 --> 04:10:00,300 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: O, ba't di nila kayo humiig sa DOH? In fact, by the hundreds of millions and billions, nage-exploited sa bodega ng DOH, natatapon lang. Sayang. So, dapat humingi na lang kayo sa DOH. Bigyan nyo lahat ng informant nyo kung anong klaseng gamot. Libre pa. Nakalibre kayo. 975 04:10:01,560 --> 04:10:15,960 Lemuel G. Ortoño: The wisdom behind how the confidential funds were implemented, sir, I cannot answer, sir, because again, sir, I am not the main implementer for the said activities. 976 04:10:16,520 --> 04:10:40,530 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kaya nga, Mr. Smart Guy, noong makita mo na ang dami mga informant na binigyan ng mga hundreds of thousands each para sa gamot, you could have asked La Chica and said, La Chica, bakit di tayo pumunta sa DOH? Maghingi tayo ng gamot para makalibre, makatipid tayo sa confidential funds. Libre naman sa DOH. Pag Office of the President maghingi, meron kayo allocation doon, I'm sure. In fact, sa DABO, ginagawa nyo na yan eh. 977 04:10:41,910 --> 04:10:44,250 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, that I cannot answer, sir. 978 04:10:44,530 --> 04:10:52,890 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So again, It defies logic. Hindi po ka panipaniwala ang mga pinagsasabi mo. Sir, for me, it 979 04:10:54,580 --> 04:11:19,970 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: really defies logic. Sayang po yung pagkatalino mo rito. Nasira po yung pagiging isang matalino mong tao. Nakakahiya po dun sa mga eskwelahan na kung saan ka nag-aral at nag-graduate. Because ngayon, pinakita mo na nagsasalita ka na para kang, sorry sir, sorry sir, nagtatangah-tangahan. Salamat po, Sir. Pasensya na, Sir. 980 04:11:20,050 --> 04:11:53,720 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Your Honor, with all due respect, Your Honor, I personally took offense of that, take offense of that comment, Sir. I actually just did my duty, Sir. At the time, Sir, I believe na yun po yung kailangan kong gawin bilang isang empleyado po, Sir. And I did my work, Sir, based on what was What was the task of me, sir, including the limitations that I can do to the duty that I will be doing? Sir, 981 04:11:53,800 --> 04:12:36,110 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: you're talking about limitation. Ikaw ang deputy COS and then malapit ka kay VP Sara and then pirma mo ang nakasaad doon sa AOM. So, karapatan mo po magtanong. Okay? Now, you're talking about taking offense. Paano naman po yung mga taong bayan? They're being offended. Sa paglulustay nyo ng pera, lumilitan na parang nilulustay ang pera dito eh. Pera ng taong bayan po ito ang pinag-uusapan natin. If you're taking offense, mas lalo pong offended ang napakaraming Pilipino ngayon. Kasi hindi mo pa naibibigay ng tamang sagot. Pero kung naibigay mo ng magandang sagot, logical na sagot, then mawawala po yung sama ng loob ng taong bayan sa inyo. 982 04:12:37,020 --> 04:12:57,650 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, with all due respect sir, I believe sir this matter of the confidential fund sir is still pending the final decision, sir. We are currently still submitting our motion for reconsideration on this one, sir. And we still have not received any final reply on this one. What I'm 983 04:12:57,650 --> 04:13:32,870 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: talking about, sir, is yung mga sagot niyo po i-devise logic para sa isang matalino ng tao. Kasi kung ako, sir, pinasinta sa akin yung mga ganong klaseng dokumento at nagtanong ako at hindi nasagot ng maayos, I will resign kaysa naman makulong ako. kaysa naman maipit ako ngayon tulad nangyari sa iyo at sa mga previous witnesses. Diba? Dalawa lang yun eh. Patuloy kang magbubulag-bulagan, pirma ka lang ng pirma dyan, nakapikit. Pero ang consequence yan, maaaring kang makulong, maaaring kang makasum. Anything can happen. Or, mag-resign ka na lang. Kung ako, I will resign. 984 04:13:34,470 --> 04:13:35,130 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mapapahama ka ko 985 04:13:35,130 --> 04:13:51,650 Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: dyan, ba't ako pipirma dyan? Bakit ako pipirma sa mga nakalagay pagong, piyatos, pikit, etc., etc., kung ano pa mga... King, Queen ng mga pangalan. I would. I would not consent to that. Outright sabihin ko, pag hindi niyo may paliwanag sa akin, I will resign. Period. Thank you po. 986 04:13:54,200 --> 04:14:25,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That was not a question, Mr. Orton. You need to answer. With the permission of Senator-Judge Tulfo, may the chair replace the word nagtatangahan with feigning ignorance on the record. I see Senator-Judge Tulfo nodding. So, let the records reflect the statement feigning ignorance in lieu of the Tagalog word mentioned earlier. Yes, Senator-Judge Pangilinan is recognized. 987 04:14:29,120 --> 04:14:31,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. Yes, 988 04:14:31,940 --> 04:14:46,280 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: thank you. Before my time begins to run, can we have a request for the uploading of... Third quarter to, no? Yeah, okay. 989 04:14:48,010 --> 04:14:58,890 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Again, good afternoon, Mr. Ortonio. This is the accomplishment report for the third quarter of 2023, July 14 to September 30. 990 04:15:00,610 --> 04:15:07,950 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Now, it appears here, wala na yung 40 million pesos worth of medicines. Correct? 991 04:15:08,690 --> 04:15:09,810 Lemuel G. Ortoño: That's correct, sir. 992 04:15:10,270 --> 04:15:29,840 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Meron siya noong last quarter, meron siya noong first quarter, meron siya noong second quarter. pero noong third quarter, wala na. Sabi mo kanina, dahil yun ang hinihingi noong mga informant. So, noong third quarter, wala nang hiningi. Ano yun? Gumaling na silang lahat? 993 04:15:30,460 --> 04:15:33,360 Lemuel G. Ortoño: That I cannot, again, sir, I cannot answer, sir. 994 04:15:34,000 --> 04:15:41,710 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes. At hindi ba you received the AOM on October? Sometime in October? 995 04:15:41,990 --> 04:15:43,910 Lemuel G. Ortoño: October 4, 2023, sir. 996 04:15:44,110 --> 04:16:01,070 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ito, October 9. So doon sa October 4, when you received the AOM, nandun na yung findings na dinidisallow or pinapasubmit ang additional documents, tama? For medicines, etc. That's 997 04:16:01,070 --> 04:16:01,630 Lemuel G. Ortoño: correct, sir. 998 04:16:02,230 --> 04:16:17,230 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, so mukhang hindi gumaling lahat noong binibigyan ng gamot. Ang nangyari, mukhang dahil nakita ninyo yung AOM at ipinagbabawal, binago ninyo. Tama po ba yun? 999 04:16:18,080 --> 04:16:30,440 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, again, sir, I cannot answer kung binago yung accomplishment report, sir, because it's something that I personally did not prepare also, sir. Now, 1000 04:16:30,540 --> 04:16:38,500 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: I move on to another point. Sabi niyo, noong natanggap niyo yung AOM, you went point by point sa mga issues, tama? 1001 04:16:38,940 --> 04:16:39,660 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. 1002 04:16:40,780 --> 04:16:52,280 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ang tanong, bakit di niyo binuksan yung sealed envelope? dun sa ARs. Kasi may, andun lahat ng mga acknowledgement receipt. Bawal ba? 1003 04:16:52,540 --> 04:17:07,160 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I did not open, sir, because at the time, sir, the AOM indicated that we submit, we are requested to submit the documentary evidence of payments. And that is 1004 04:17:07,160 --> 04:17:09,600 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: where, that is the acknowledgement receipts. That 1005 04:17:09,600 --> 04:17:13,780 Lemuel G. Ortoño: is what you are being required to submit. To submit, sir. So should you 1006 04:17:13,780 --> 04:17:26,990 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: not have gone through the acknowledgement receipts to check because you're being asked to submit the documentary evidence of payment and to check if the ARs are actually documentary evidence acceptable? 1007 04:17:27,920 --> 04:17:35,060 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, yun na po yung nabigay sa akin ng special disbursing officer, sir. Okay, 1008 04:17:35,260 --> 04:17:37,300 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: the question is, why didn't you open the envelope? 1009 04:17:37,540 --> 04:17:41,400 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I did not open anymore, sir, because at the time, sir, 1010 04:17:43,050 --> 04:17:45,670 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I also have a designation. Were you instructed 1011 04:17:45,670 --> 04:17:46,510 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: not to open it? 1012 04:17:46,930 --> 04:17:56,110 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, as liaison officer kasi sir, I am not in the position sir to open yung sealed na DEP sir. 1013 04:17:56,290 --> 04:17:56,790 Lemuel G. Ortoño: But 1014 04:17:56,790 --> 04:18:17,000 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: you were instructed to submit documentary evidence of payment. So in other words, you submitted, you complied without going through the documentary evidence of payment? How can you now tell? If it was documentary evidence of payment that you were submitting when you did not open the envelope, what were you submitting? 1015 04:18:17,440 --> 04:18:19,800 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I personally did not open it anymore, sir. 1016 04:18:20,020 --> 04:18:28,990 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: That's why. But you were being required by COA to submit, to comply. Yes, sir. So would you say that was substantial compliance? 1017 04:18:30,340 --> 04:18:36,120 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, yun po kasi yung na-require ng AOM, sir. So we submitted the documentary evidence 1018 04:18:36,120 --> 04:18:36,900 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: of payment. Kasi 1019 04:18:36,900 --> 04:19:04,380 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: ang sitwasyon dito, Dahilan mo o depensa mo na hindi mo natinignan o hindi mo nakita. Pero tama bang depensa yun? Na hindi mo nakita kaya hindi mo masasagot? Kasi ganun din ang sinabi mo, wala ako doon, wala ako sa ground, I'm not in the implementation, kaya hindi ko masagot. Is that compliance with the requirements of COA? 1020 04:19:04,810 --> 04:19:08,850 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, the duty po, sir, to ensure that the DPPs... There was nothing to 1021 04:19:08,850 --> 04:19:11,780 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: stop you from opening the envelope, right? There was 1022 04:19:11,780 --> 04:19:29,910 Lemuel G. Ortoño: nothing. Sir, the JC, sir, indicates, sir, that there are only certain individuals who have access to... You could get clearance. Could you? Sir, that's what... Of course you can. I did not ask anymore, sir, because I... Okay. I... Parang respectfully... 1023 04:19:31,980 --> 04:19:35,220 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I-acknowledge ko na kung ano yung nakalagay sa J.C., Sir. 1024 04:19:35,520 --> 04:20:03,540 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: In other words, you really did not go point for point as you earlier testified to. Kasi pag sinabi mo we went point for point, parang masinot yung naging trabaho ninyo. Diba? Thorough. Point for point. Pero ang lumalabas dito ngayon, hindi nyo binuksan yung Documentary Evidence of Payment, hindi nyo binusisi. Di ba? Sinabmit lang ninyo. 1025 04:20:05,210 --> 04:20:40,220 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Again, we're talking of hundreds of millions of pesos. And I'd like to think, being an intelligent Ateneo graduate, di ba, that you would have exercised greater diligence as you tried to monitor, check on, supervise financial services head how government money was being spent. Yun ang tinatanong ng mga kababayan natin, ang mahirap paniwalaan, I'll wrap it up here, na kayo ay gumastos ng 122 million para 1026 04:20:42,270 --> 04:20:56,240 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: sa gamot na reward dahil nag-surveillance yung mga informant at nabigyan ng reward at hiningi nila gamot at hindi ninyo binigyan ng gamot, binigyan ninyo ng pera para sila nang bibili ng gamot. 1027 04:20:58,500 --> 04:20:59,980 Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Sabi nyo, usual yun. 1028 04:21:02,140 --> 04:21:15,440 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Can you wrap up, Senator-Judge Pangilinan? No further questions, Mr. President. Thank you, Senator-Judge Pagninan. Finally, um, Senate President, um, Senate President Gachalian. Thank you. And then, Senator-Judge Padilla. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 1029 04:21:16,160 --> 04:21:53,400 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Um, merong, uh, binabasa ko itong, itong, uh, reply ninyo, Mr. Ortonio Tukowa, dated November 30, 2023. At nakasulat dito, I'll, I'll flash it on the screen. Uh, pakiflash na lang. Um, Hence, the 125 million CF was fully utilized for expenses planned, implemented, and paid during the three-month period covering October to December 2022. So, sino nagbayad ng 125 million in advance? 1030 04:21:54,800 --> 04:22:07,740 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, there was no payment in advance that was made, sir. All payments were made between the period of December 21 to December 31, sir. 1031 04:22:07,960 --> 04:22:31,700 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But very clear kasi dito na binayaran na siya paid three months in advance. In fact, mayroon pa siyang months. And ito yung kadugtong ng sinabi ng ating presiding officer, obligation incurred. So, ang basa ko dito, nabayaran na siya. kaya rinire-reimbursed na lang noong 125 CF. 1032 04:22:32,390 --> 04:22:52,940 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, if I may be allowed, Sir, to clarify, Your Honor, yung parang explanation from yesterday, Sir. For the period of October to December 2022, Sir, based on the information that was shared by the security officer, once we have already submitted yung PFP sometime in September, 1033 04:22:55,090 --> 04:23:21,590 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Security team, sir, meaning si Colonel Achica, sir, already made coordination with informants or agents on the ground. As to the extent of the coordination that they did, sir, I am not privy to that anymore. However, when we received the SARO in December 13, 2022, 1034 04:23:48,600 --> 04:23:49,440 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Mas 1035 04:23:49,440 --> 04:24:25,580 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: realistic pa kasi kung in advance tapos reimbursed kaysa 125 million gagastusin in 11 days. So mas realistic pa nga itong explanation ninyo kaysa doon sa 11 days na gagastusin. And we're talking about 845 acknowledgement receipts scattered all over the country. Kaya itong explanation ninyo mas realistic pa, albeit Although ano ito, violation ng Joint Circular. 1036 04:24:26,260 --> 04:24:36,420 Lemuel G. Ortoño: So I'd like to point out lang, Your Honor, that there were no reimbursements made, sir, based on what was relayed to me, sir. There was no reimbursements. But 1037 04:24:36,420 --> 04:24:39,700 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: this was information relayed to you by La Chica? 1038 04:24:39,900 --> 04:24:40,820 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Colonel La Chica, sir. 1039 04:24:40,900 --> 04:25:00,200 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Itong si Colonel La Chica, kanina naririnig ko hindi nyo alam yung direct na ginagawa niya, hindi rin alam ni Acosta. So, sino lang nakakaalam sa opisina ninyo tungkol sa confidential operations or itong paggastos, yung paggastos ng confidential operations? 1040 04:25:00,780 --> 04:25:16,100 Lemuel G. Ortoño: For the confidential operations, sir, again, sir, I have no personal knowledge, sir. I would assume, sir, because meron po siyang designation from our head of agency, then the reportorial duties, I would presume, would be directly to the head of agency. 1041 04:25:16,160 --> 04:25:17,680 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Which is si Vice President Sara. 1042 04:25:18,400 --> 04:25:19,320 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Dalawang tao lang 1043 04:25:19,320 --> 04:25:26,740 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: sa opisina ninyo, si Vice President Sara at si Colonel Achica lang ang alam kung paano gastusin itong 500 million. 1044 04:25:27,140 --> 04:25:31,960 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I would have no personal knowledge again, sir, kung sila lang pong dalawa, sir. Kasi 1045 04:25:31,960 --> 04:25:59,880 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: ikaw yung gumawa nung... Reply, pero galing sa Colonel Achica yung information, si Gina naman kahapon, ganun rin, hindi rin niya alam. So I'm trying to understand sino nakakaalam nung paggastos ng 500 million dahil hindi siya maliit na pondo eh. But based on your information, dalawang tao lang ang parang nakakaalam nito, si Vice President at si Colonel Achica. My last question, 1046 04:26:01,600 --> 04:26:09,120 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Mr. Presiding Officer, kanina nasabi niyo na based sa information, meron pang mga tao si Colonel La Chica. 1047 04:26:12,080 --> 04:26:52,760 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Tinransfer ni Acosta yung pera, o dinisverse ni Acosta yung pera kay Colonel La Chica. And si Colonel La Chica dinisverse niya ulit dito sa mga tao niya. So, dalawang double handling ang nangyari dito sa pera. So, paano natin malalamang kung talagang yung pera ay pumunta sa mga activities o tao na kailangan puntahan dahil ni yung Accountable Officer hindi niya na alam kung paano na-disperse yung pera doon sa mga informants. Anong kwento sa iyo ni Col. La Chica na umabot talaga dito sa mga informants? 1048 04:26:53,590 --> 04:27:05,070 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, based on what was shared to me, Miss Gina Acosta disbursed the amount to the security officer and then the security officer implemented it on the ground. 1049 04:27:05,150 --> 04:27:33,100 Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But violation na kasi in disbursement to Colonel La Chica eh. And then there's another violation na from Colonel La Chica to some people who disbursed the amounts. Ibig sabihin ang daming taong kumahawak ng pera bago umabot sa mga informants. So in that sense, ang daming violation o tinakbuhan ng pera. So, thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 1050 04:27:33,320 --> 04:27:57,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senate President. With the indulgence of Senator-Judge Padilla, Senator-Judge Camille Villar will be availing of her first round opportunity to interject. So, I will recognize her first. Again, with your indulgence, Senator-Judge Padilla, I see you nodding. Senator-Judge Camille Villar, you may proceed when you're ready. You have two minutes, ma'am. 1051 04:27:57,350 --> 04:28:03,590 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Good afternoon po, Mr. Ortoño. 1052 04:28:03,950 --> 04:28:05,190 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Good afternoon, Your Honor. Mayong 1053 04:28:05,190 --> 04:28:07,110 Sen. Camille Villar: hapon. Mayong hapon din. 1054 04:28:08,930 --> 04:28:18,190 Sen. Camille Villar: I just want, I just have a few clarificatory questions for you, if you don't mind. Tama po ba kayo ang Assistant Chief of Staff ng OVP? 1055 04:28:18,670 --> 04:28:19,990 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, that's correct, Your Honor. 1056 04:28:20,150 --> 04:28:28,800 Sen. Camille Villar: And kayo po ang... sumagot dun sa AOM na pinadala nung ng COA. Kayo po 1057 04:28:28,800 --> 04:28:29,900 Sen. Camille Villar: yung nag-prepare ng report. 1058 04:28:30,800 --> 04:28:32,260 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, that's correct, Your Honor. 1059 04:28:32,500 --> 04:28:40,980 Sen. Camille Villar: Yes, and ano yung mga, what was the process in which that you did that? Or what were the things that you had to do? You prepared the AOM, you consulted with? 1060 04:28:42,810 --> 04:29:10,010 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Noong nareceive po yung AOM, ma'am, I informed the chief of staff and the vice president. And from there, there was an instruction to me to coordinate with the special disbursing officer and the security officer, which I did also, ma'am. And then from their replies, ma'am, I drafted the response. And then I submitted the reply for final approval to the head of agency. 1061 04:29:10,660 --> 04:29:29,740 Sen. Camille Villar: And of course, and of course in your capacity as the Assistant Chief of Staff and in your own capacity, sa inyong pong palagay ay nagampanan nyo naman yung inyong role dito sa prosesong ito at nagawa nyo naman adequately yung report? 1062 04:29:30,220 --> 04:29:31,620 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, at the time, ma'am, 1063 04:29:31,620 --> 04:29:50,140 Lemuel G. Ortoño: yes, I would say so, ma'am. Because from the issues that were raised in the AOM and in the NS, Marami pong mga concerns or issues na natanggal po doon sa final na natanggal doon sa notice of disallowance that we received. 1064 04:29:50,420 --> 04:29:57,820 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay. And lahat yung mga requirements naman ay na-fulfill nyo naman doon sa report, right? The majority of it. 1065 04:29:57,980 --> 04:30:05,280 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes. All the... ng mga concerns that were raised, we were able to provide answers and supporting documents. 1066 04:30:06,120 --> 04:30:20,150 Sen. Camille Villar: And doon po sa AOM, anywhere in the AOM, did it say that there was misuse or misappropriation of the funds? 1067 04:30:21,070 --> 04:30:23,290 Lemuel G. Ortoño: No, there was no mention po, ma'am. 1068 04:30:23,450 --> 04:30:28,350 Sen. Camille Villar: Okay. And are the findings of the AOM final? 1069 04:30:29,550 --> 04:30:37,130 Lemuel G. Ortoño: No, ma'am. It is subject for comments, ma'am. And right now, for motion for reconsideration. Okay. 1070 04:30:37,270 --> 04:30:41,650 Sen. Camille Villar: Yun lamang po. Maraming maraming salamat. Takang salamat po. Thank you. Thank 1071 04:30:41,650 --> 04:30:42,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Senator-Judge 1072 04:30:42,510 --> 04:30:43,170 Sen. Camille Villar: Camille 1073 04:30:43,170 --> 04:30:43,550 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Villar. 1074 04:30:43,570 --> 04:30:45,010 Sen. Camille Villar: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 1075 04:30:45,390 --> 04:30:45,810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator 1076 04:30:45,810 --> 04:30:48,150 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: -Judge Padilla, you 1077 04:30:48,700 --> 04:30:49,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may proceed with your 1078 04:30:49,780 --> 04:30:56,920 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: interjection, sir. You have two minutes. Maraming salamat po, ginong tagapamahal ng hukom. Tuloy ko lang po yung ating tanungan. 1079 04:30:58,740 --> 04:31:08,200 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Pagkatapos po niyong sumagot, pwede pong pati na rin sa depensa. Meron din po akong tanong. Kanina po, nahinto tayo kay Marshal 1080 04:31:08,200 --> 04:31:08,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Gundipasio. 1081 04:31:25,800 --> 04:31:31,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: One to be provided for you at a future time, Attorney Christine, or the side of the respondents? 1082 04:31:32,380 --> 04:31:37,160 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes, Your Honor. I would appreciate having that platform too. Okay. Thank you. In 1083 04:31:37,160 --> 04:31:40,780 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the next hearing, Attorney Christine, yes, Senator-Judge Padilla, you may 1084 04:31:40,780 --> 04:31:40,900 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: proceed. 1085 04:31:41,300 --> 04:31:58,380 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Balikan ko po na putol po tayo kanina. Naniniwala po ba kayo na ang confidential fund para iyaan po ay makakuha tayo ng informasyon? para makasave ng buhay, para makakaroon tayo ng law and order? 1086 04:31:59,730 --> 04:32:01,810 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: If used properly, yes, Your Honor. 1087 04:32:01,990 --> 04:32:05,290 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Okay. Opo. Kayo po, sa defense, naniniwala po ba kayo? Yes, 1088 04:32:05,290 --> 04:32:05,650 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Your Honor. 1089 04:32:05,870 --> 04:32:22,590 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Kung sa palagay niyo po, noong panahon na si Marcial Bonifacio ay may confidential fund at nalaman niya na merong magtatangka sa kanyang buhay, sa palagay niyo po ba buhay pa si Senator Binigno Aquino? Ngayon? 1090 04:32:22,650 --> 04:32:34,050 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Well, assuming, Your Honor, that the foreign occupants were those lone threats to his life, then probably yes, Your Honor. 1091 04:32:34,330 --> 04:32:35,490 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Salamat po. Kayo po? 1092 04:32:36,630 --> 04:32:50,710 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Actually, Your Honor, I'm not aware really of the circumstances during that time, Your Honor, so I cannot really comment intelligently on that. Yes, opo. Yes, Your Honor. 1093 04:32:50,970 --> 04:32:51,470 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sige. 1094 04:32:53,270 --> 04:33:16,920 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Si Marshall Bonifacio po ang maituturing natin na nagbigay ng daan para sa people power. Yung kanya pong pagkamatay. Siya po ay na-assassinate. Sa palagay niyo po ba kung meron siyang confidential fund noong panahon na iyon ay nagkaroon siya ng information na merong assassination na magagawa sa kanya? 1095 04:33:17,840 --> 04:33:18,820 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Likely, Your Honor. 1096 04:33:19,380 --> 04:33:37,200 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Salamat po. Pangalawang tanong po. Palagay niyo po ba kung meron confidential fund si Senator, former Senator Angara, na sa ngayon ay sekretary ng DepEd, maaari po bang napigil niya ang mga shooting incidents sa mga paaralan? 1097 04:33:39,700 --> 04:33:41,520 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: I cannot speculate. 1098 04:33:42,100 --> 04:33:43,200 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Wala pong speculation. 1099 04:33:45,740 --> 04:33:46,380 Atty. Mae Sancho Divinagracia: Sabi 1100 04:33:46,380 --> 04:33:51,040 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: niyo po kasi kanina, sumang-ayon po kayo kung may confidential fund, maaaring. 1101 04:33:52,640 --> 04:34:01,580 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Makapigil, makapagbigay ng kapayapaan, law and order. Sa panagin niyo po ba kung meron siyang confidential? Ano lang naman po yun? Yes or no? Kung hindi po kayo naniniwala, hindi no? 1102 04:34:02,890 --> 04:34:04,190 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: No, Your Honor. Okay, 1103 04:34:04,250 --> 04:34:05,410 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: salamat po. Kayo po? 1104 04:34:06,390 --> 04:34:12,630 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: It can, Your Honor, if the purpose of the confidential fund is to conduct surveillance, Your Honor, on the threats. 1105 04:34:13,870 --> 04:34:14,550 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: So, kaino? 1106 04:34:14,850 --> 04:34:15,250 Atty. Kristine R. Ferrer: Yes. 1107 04:34:15,470 --> 04:34:20,340 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Tama ba yung aking diksyon? Kaino? Salamat po. Salamat po. 1108 04:34:22,220 --> 04:34:33,660 Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sa ating saksi, naniniwala po ba kayo na hindi pa naman talaga natapos ang investigasyon ng COA dito patungkol sa sinasabing akusasyon sa ating Vice President? 1109 04:34:34,500 --> 04:34:35,340 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. 1110 04:34:37,180 --> 04:34:49,460 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Nasa stage pa po, sir, ng submission of a for yung decision for the motion for reconsideration. So, I would say that it's not yet final. Hindi po siya final. 1111 04:34:49,740 --> 04:35:00,280 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yun lang po. Maraming salamat po. Thank you, Senator-Judge Padilla, Senator-Judge Lacson. You have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready. Thereafter, Senator Marcos, and then we're through. 1112 04:35:00,620 --> 04:35:32,250 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Very quickly lang, Mr. Presiding Officer. Ano na po ang inyong status ng security classification noong inyong PFP? Covering the PAPs, programs, activities, projects na socio-economic at saka good governance. Including ano yung present security classification? Has it been declassified or is it still classified information? 1113 04:35:33,530 --> 04:35:38,050 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I would have no idea po, sir. Teka 1114 04:35:38,050 --> 04:35:41,290 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: muna, terminated na po ba yung PFP? 1115 04:35:43,710 --> 04:35:53,610 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Terminated na. Tapos na. If in terms of the activities, sir, I would assume, sir, na tapos na po. Therefore, 1116 04:35:53,850 --> 04:35:55,850 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: kung tapos na, declassified na. 1117 04:35:56,750 --> 04:35:58,830 Lemuel G. Ortoño: As to the terminology, sir, unfortunately. 1118 04:35:59,190 --> 04:36:15,810 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Declassified meaning hindi na ito classified information. You know, I'm trying to drive out this scenario. Kasi ang dami sa amin nagtataka talaga, totoo ba talaga yung yung mga Eliases. Totoo ba nakatanggap sila ng reward, 1119 04:36:16,250 --> 04:38:01,360 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: ng informants money? Para lang matapos na yung aming panghula, baka puwedeng maipresenta all the documents relative to the PAPs, relative to the PFP, relative to the expedited outcome. Para lang makapag-decision kami. Kasi sa ngayon nanguhula kami, saan ba napunta yung pera? Possible po ba yun? I'm also addressing that to the presiding officer. Is it possible for the court to issue subpoena dosis tecum just to settle this issue once and for all? Para makita natin saan ba talaga napunta yung pera? So we can have informed decision at the proper time. Ngayon hula kami ng hula eh. Alam niyo Mr. Ortonio, no? Misuse. Sa akin ah, yung misuse, maski masama yung connotation legally, na misuse mo, pero hindi mo binulsa, probably, pwedeng patawarin siguro ng mga kababayan natin, di ba? Naaawa ka doon sa mga pulis, sa mga sundalo, na misuse mo kasi hindi intended doon sa item sa ga-a, pero tinulungan mo kasi marami nagkakasakit, na ulanan, na arawan. Sa akin, medyo maanawaan pa ng publiko. Although, I'm not saying na hindi violation of law kasi may technical malversation. But in the eyes of the public, pagka na may shoes pero hindi naman binulsa, medyo subdued ng konti yung galit. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. 1120 04:38:01,870 --> 04:38:51,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To respond, as a general rule, the court should sit as a passive body, Senator-Judge Lacson, and leave it up to the prosecution to subpoena documents they deem necessary to prove their case. However, the court is not without any power after both councils have presented their respective evidences in chief to call a witness, recall a witness, call a witness that was not called by either or named by either party and subpoena documents in connection with the subpoena at testificandum. Dosis teko may also be issued. Citing as basis, City of Cebu v. Gaco, AMRTJ 82111 and People v. Valera, GR No. 20286. So at the appropriate time, Senator Lacson, the court can avail of that power. 1121 04:38:51,940 --> 04:39:26,090 Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you, Mr. President. officer for the response. Kasi para hindi na tayo nanguhula lahat ito, 20 ilan tayo rito. Hindi natin alam kung talaga saan napuntay ang pera. Of course, there's a presumption na nagamit na maayos. But still, there's that doubt. You cannot remove that. Because of the so many issues na lumabas dito sa aming trial. And we want to be satisfied. After all, we'll be deciding on the basis of evidence and kung anong tingin namin, kung ano yung tama. ano yung mali. Thank you, Mr. President Officer. 1122 04:39:26,350 --> 04:39:33,510 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We reserve that right. The court reserves that right, Senator-Judge Lacson. Finally, Senator-Judge Marcos for her interjection. 1123 04:39:34,650 --> 04:39:46,930 Sen. Imee Marcos: Yes, maraming salamat. At na-intriga lang ako sa nasabi kanina, no? What's the documentary evidence of payment? Sa palagay ninyo, ano yung katibayan na nabayaran at hindi? 1124 04:39:47,830 --> 04:39:53,410 Lemuel G. Ortoño: For the documentary evidence of payment po, we submitted the acknowledgement receipts. 1125 04:39:53,570 --> 04:40:00,210 Sen. Imee Marcos: Yung AR pa rin. In the context of rewards and incentives, what's the documentary evidence of payment? 1126 04:40:01,510 --> 04:40:05,090 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Based on my understanding, ma'am, acknowledgement receipts. AR din. 1127 04:40:05,330 --> 04:40:08,710 Sen. Imee Marcos: Wala talagang resibo, walang voucher, walang invoice. Ganun po ba? 1128 04:40:09,090 --> 04:40:16,410 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Ang understanding ko po, ma'am, it's the acknowledgement receipts, ma'am, can suffice, ma'am. 1129 04:40:16,960 --> 04:40:31,180 Sen. Imee Marcos: And COA did not require OVP to submit what was inside that sealed envelope. Nasabi nga ninyo kanina, yung AR lang ang binuksan nyo, hindi na tinignan yung sealed envelope. Kasi ba hindi required ng COA yun? 1130 04:40:31,820 --> 04:40:34,600 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Ma'am, when we submitted the... 1131 04:40:36,350 --> 04:41:05,980 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Initial na comment ng COA is that we submit documentary evidence of payment to include also either ARs or official receipts. We submitted ARs as documentary evidence of payment and in the notice of this allowance, there was no concern anymore in terms of the acknowledgement So 1132 04:41:05,980 --> 04:41:20,420 Sen. Imee Marcos: inasmuch as YUMCOA did no longer ask for other documentation aside from the AR and the other documents submitted, is that the reason kung bakit hindi na ninyo binuksan yung sealed envelope? 1133 04:41:34,280 --> 04:41:49,880 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Commission on Audit. There is no specific na provision, ma'am, that the liaison officer needs to open it. I just need to transmit the documents to the Commission on Audit. 1134 04:41:50,060 --> 04:42:03,200 Sen. Imee Marcos: Thank you very much. At yun nga ang gusto ko i-clarify, hindi na kinailangan buksan yung sealed envelope dahil yun nga yung AR at yung mga dokumentong nabigay, yun na yung katibayan na nabayaran. Thank you. 1135 04:42:03,630 --> 04:42:04,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Your Honor. 1136 04:42:04,110 --> 04:42:08,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Marcos. Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo. 1137 04:42:10,680 --> 04:42:17,360 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: I know, Mr. Presiding Officer, we're in a hurry now, pero just a quick manifestation, Mr. Presiding 1138 04:42:17,360 --> 04:42:20,020 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Officer. Yes, you may proceed, Senator Judge Tulfo. Sir, 1139 04:42:20,020 --> 04:42:47,180 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: may I once again encourage both councils, the prosecution and the defense, to consider presenting the individual who appears to be the missing link in these testimonies we have heard so far. Ilang araw na po ito, Colonel La Chica, Colonel La Chica, La Chica, La Chica, even Colonel La Chica sa mga TV po kanina, kagabi, willing po siya mag-testify dito. Maging si Defense Secretary, sabi niya gano 1140 04:42:47,180 --> 04:43:41,090 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: 'n, pinaubayan na namin sa Senate si Colonel La Chica. I understand, Mr. Presiding Officer, we cannot compel him to appear, but he has been repeatedly named by several witnesses, and it may be helpful. to this court to hear directly from that individual so that gaping holes in the testimony may be clarified and the facts may be properly connected. I'm sure lahat po na senator-judges would like to ask him. Ano ba? Saan mo ba dinala? Totoo bang inutosan ka ni BP? O sarili mo lang yan? Binulsa mo? I have a lot of questions, Mr. Presiding Officer. That's why I am praying that one day we will be able to talk to Colonel La Chica para matapos na ho ito. Iniwan ho natin parang hanging po yung question. Matatapos na po tayo dito sa ikang... 1141 04:43:43,690 --> 04:43:50,290 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Hostile witness, babalik na tayo sa witnesses ng prosecutors, hindi pa natin narinig si Colonel Chica, Mr. Presiding Officer. 1142 04:43:50,310 --> 04:44:27,120 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The manifestation is noted but as earlier ruled by the Presiding Officer, we cannot compel either party to call a witness. However, after the presentation of the party's evidence-in-chief, The court may exercise its discretion to call a witness based on the Supreme Court ruling cited by the chair earlier. That time will come should Colonel Lachica not be called by either party. As ordered, just a few questions, Mr. Ortonio. To wind up, kayo po ang nagsagot o sumagot sa lahat ng AOM, notice of suspension, at notice of disallowance. Tama po? 1143 04:44:27,320 --> 04:44:29,560 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, I'm one of the signatories po. 1144 04:44:29,920 --> 04:44:39,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Wala po doon sa AOM o kahit anong notice of suspension at disallowance, yung issue tungkol sa mga alias sa acknowledgement receipt, na-raise po 1145 04:44:39,980 --> 04:44:40,360 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ba yun doon? 1146 04:44:40,600 --> 04:44:45,160 Lemuel G. Ortoño: It was not raised in any of the observations from COA, Sir. 1147 04:44:45,380 --> 04:44:47,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So hindi nyo kinailangan sagutin yun? 1148 04:44:48,020 --> 04:44:49,520 Lemuel G. Ortoño: We did not answer, Sir. 1149 04:44:49,920 --> 04:44:52,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Did not need to answer because there was no question po, yes? 1150 04:44:53,400 --> 04:44:54,260 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, Your Honor. 1151 04:44:54,480 --> 04:44:59,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: There was no issue also raised by COA with respect to spending it for 11 days, correct? 1152 04:44:59,830 --> 04:45:01,530 Lemuel G. Ortoño: That's correct, Your Honor. Wala 1153 04:45:01,530 --> 04:45:03,010 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: rin kayong kailangan sagutin kayo ngayon? 1154 04:45:04,150 --> 04:45:05,070 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, Your Honor. 1155 04:45:05,350 --> 04:45:06,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, notice 1156 04:45:06,050 --> 04:45:14,170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: of disallowance for the three quarters of 2023. It was disallowed dahil, base sa testimonya 1157 04:45:14,170 --> 04:45:17,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: ni Gina Acosta, binigay niya yung pera kay Colonel Achiga. Tama po ba? 1158 04:45:18,690 --> 04:45:21,270 Lemuel G. Ortoño: That's one of the observations, Your Honor. 1159 04:45:22,310 --> 04:45:25,410 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's not an observation anymore, Mr. Ortonio. It's a notice of 1160 04:45:25,410 --> 04:45:27,610 Lemuel G. Ortoño: disallowance. Yes, that's correct, Your Honor. 1161 04:45:28,730 --> 04:45:37,770 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sa tingin ng ko, bawal, iligal, hindi sangayon sa JC 2015-1 yung pagbigay ni Gina Acosta kay Lachica. 1162 04:45:38,840 --> 04:45:46,960 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Based on the notice of disallowance, Your Honor, it indicates na the transfer from one agency to another, Sir. 1163 04:45:47,140 --> 04:45:56,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kayo po, alam niyo po ba yun na binigay ni Gina Acosta yung huling quarter ng 2022 at tatlong quarter ng 2023 kay Col. Lachica lahat? 1164 04:45:57,000 --> 04:45:59,040 Lemuel G. Ortoño: At the time, sir, no, I did not, sir. 1165 04:45:59,240 --> 04:46:03,200 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: At the time na binigay niya o at the time na nangyari na? 1166 04:46:03,520 --> 04:46:07,820 Lemuel G. Ortoño: At the time na nangyari lahat, sir. I would have no personal knowledge, sir. 1167 04:46:08,380 --> 04:46:12,400 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Hindi, pero nung ginawa mo yung AOM, unang sagot sa AOM, alam mo 1168 04:46:12,400 --> 04:46:13,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: na na binigay ni Gina kay La Chica. 1169 04:46:15,320 --> 04:46:18,640 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir, because the security... 1170 04:46:20,610 --> 04:46:21,810 Lemuel G. Ortoño: So, October 1171 04:46:21,810 --> 04:46:33,850 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: mo nang nalaman na binigay lahat ni Gina Lachica. October 2023, noong sinagot mo yung unang AOM para sa huling quarter ng 2022, doon mo palang nalaman na binigay lahat ni Gina kay Lachica yung pera. 1172 04:46:33,930 --> 04:46:35,070 Lemuel G. Ortoño: That's correct, Your Honor. 1173 04:46:35,370 --> 04:46:39,730 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Now, is Lachica an accountable officer based on the definition of the JC? 1174 04:46:40,740 --> 04:46:47,200 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Based on the JC, sir, he's not an accountable officer, sir. It's the SDO. 1175 04:46:47,460 --> 04:46:57,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And that is the reason why his signature does not appear in any of the documents submitted by the Vice President in relation to the AOM, NS, and Notice of Disallowance. Dahil hindi 1176 04:46:57,880 --> 04:46:59,920 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: naman siya empleyado ng OVP, diba? 1177 04:47:00,520 --> 04:47:06,680 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. He's not an employee, sir. Although he's designated as the security officer. 1178 04:47:07,040 --> 04:47:16,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is that allowed? Designating someone as a security officer who's not an employee of the office and being given that much money to disperse? 1179 04:47:17,230 --> 04:47:44,780 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, based on my understanding, sir, on the JC, when I read it, sir, there's no specific guidelines, sir, on who to designate as security officer. But there is a provision, sir, that the head of agency may designate a security officer to implement different programs and activities. Now, 1180 04:47:44,820 --> 04:47:51,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you keep on mentioning that La Chica implemented and that Acosta disbursed. Ano pong definition nyo ng implement? 1181 04:47:53,080 --> 04:47:59,820 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Implement, sir, would be to perform the different activities on the ground, sir. 1182 04:48:00,160 --> 04:48:01,600 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Which entails what? 1183 04:48:03,400 --> 04:48:07,340 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How will he perform the different activities on the ground in 1184 04:48:07,430 --> 04:48:08,110 Lemuel G. Ortoño: relation 1185 04:48:08,110 --> 04:48:09,130 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to confidential funds? 1186 04:48:10,490 --> 04:48:22,170 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Possible, sir, to coordinate with the different informants or agents, sir. Yun po yung pwede kong mabigay na information, sir. 1187 04:48:22,270 --> 04:48:22,450 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. 1188 04:48:22,570 --> 04:48:23,490 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Ortonio, sa mga 1189 04:48:23,490 --> 04:48:31,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: salitang perform at coordinate, saan po dun yung pag-astos ng confidential fund? Perform, coordinate, yun ang definition mo na-implement. 1190 04:48:31,980 --> 04:48:32,640 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, sir. 1191 04:48:32,820 --> 04:48:38,940 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: O, asan dun, ba't binigay kay Cornel, lahat siya kay impera at ba't siya gumastos kung perform at coordinate lang pala? Did 1192 04:48:38,940 --> 04:48:39,800 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Colonel Lachika 1193 04:48:39,800 --> 04:48:40,580 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: spend the money? 1194 04:48:41,600 --> 04:48:52,140 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I would say so, sir, that being the implementer of the different activities, sir, he spent the money for the different confidential activities. 1195 04:48:52,140 --> 04:48:55,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, Colonel Lachika disbursed the money for various confidential activities? 1196 04:48:56,770 --> 04:49:01,510 Lemuel G. Ortoño: I would say, sir, na he implemented the different activities, sir. 1197 04:49:01,670 --> 04:49:18,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. Ortonio, nasa spent na tayo. Binago ko lang ng konting disbursed. Bumalik ka na naman sa implement eh. Again, Spent, disbursed. It means the same thing. Ang gumastos na ng pera na binigay ni Gina, si Colonel La Chica o mga tauhan niya. 1198 04:49:18,930 --> 04:49:34,600 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, based on my understanding, sir, it's Ms. Gina Acosta who disbursed the fund, sir, and then si Colonel La Chica po yung nag-implement or conduct ng mga confidential activities. Hindi 1199 04:49:34,600 --> 04:49:35,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: nagbayad si Colonel La Chica? 1200 04:49:37,060 --> 04:49:44,960 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Part of his duties as the implementor, sir, nagbayad siya doon. So is 1201 04:49:44,960 --> 04:49:49,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: it your theory that Gina disbursed to La Chica as an end user? 1202 04:49:51,400 --> 04:49:56,960 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yun po yung ano ko, sir. That's my understanding po, sir. Kung 1203 04:49:56,960 --> 04:50:09,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: end user si La Chica, bakit niya binawi yung acknowledgement receipt niya noong nagbigay na siya ng mga acknowledgement receipt para sa DM ano binayaran niya? Hindi ba dapat tinago niya yun? Kasi nag-disperse 1204 04:50:09,970 --> 04:50:19,310 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: si Gina, tinanggap ni La Chica, kung siya ang end user, tama lang na may acknowledgement receipt siya, ba't niya binawi? Ba't hindi tinago sa file? 1205 04:50:19,900 --> 04:50:39,080 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, in terms of binawi po yung AR, sir, I do not know of that, sir, because that's what Gina said. The AR, sir, were given to me by Ms. Gina. and then that's what I submitted to the Commission on Audit. 1206 04:50:39,120 --> 04:50:49,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The ARs of the various aliases na pinanggit, yung kanina pa sinasabi, ng iba't ibang apelido, kasama yung apelido ko, yun yung sinubmit ni Col. Lachica. Ayon kay 1207 04:50:49,960 --> 04:51:01,420 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Gina, nagbigay siya ng pera kay Col. Lachica at bilang katibayan, nagbigay ng acknowledgement receipt si Col. Lachica. Pero nung nagbigay siya ng mga acknowledgement receipt at liquidation, 1208 04:51:02,480 --> 04:51:07,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Binawi daw ni Colonel Lachica yung acknowledgement receipt. So wala kang kopya ng acknowledgement receipt ni Lachica? 1209 04:51:09,080 --> 04:51:24,340 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I'm sorry, sir. Ang pagkakaalam ko, sir, is that I got the box with acknowledgement receipt, sir, from the special disbursing officer. So you're not aware of 1210 04:51:24,340 --> 04:51:26,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: any acknowledgement receipt signed by Lachica? 1211 04:51:28,110 --> 04:51:29,670 Lemuel G. Ortoño: No, sir. So 1212 04:51:29,670 --> 04:51:32,960 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: if Gina disbursed to him, Ba't hindi 1213 04:51:32,960 --> 04:51:35,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: mo hinanap yung acknowledgement receipt kay La Chica? 1214 04:51:35,990 --> 04:51:40,910 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, the request, sir, was for the DEPs for the implementation. 1215 04:51:41,030 --> 04:51:50,680 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If your theory is, dinisburst kay La Chica, in-implement ni La Chica, hindi ba kailangan may papel yung dinisbursan na tinanggap niya yung pera? 1216 04:51:51,390 --> 04:51:55,110 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Sir, I did not request for it anymore, sir. That's 1217 04:51:55,110 --> 04:52:03,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the final question, sir. So this is your story. You placed in the PAP, or you know that what they placed in the PAP, good governance 1218 04:52:03,900 --> 04:52:38,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: program, socio-economic delivery program, pero gagastasin yung confidential fund para sa informants, para tiyakin na ligtas ang ikalawang pangulo saan man siya magpunta sa bansa, kaugnay ng trabaho niya, at ginamit itong confidential fund para bumili ng impormasyon, pera binigay para ipambili ng pagkain, ng silya, ng computer, ng gamot. Kapalit ay impormasyon para matiyak ang kaligtasan ng VP at napatunayang matagumpay yun dahil walang nangyaring masama sa ating 1219 04:52:38,110 --> 04:52:47,630 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: vice-presidente hanggang ngayon. Yan po yung buod summary ng paggamit ng confidential fund ng OVP base sa inyong presentasyon. 1220 04:52:56,610 --> 04:53:18,350 Lemuel G. Ortoño: to ensure that the activities of the OVP will be implemented safely and that no untoward na mga mangyayari in the performance of, walang mangyayari sa mga different activities ng OVP. Walang mangyayaring 1221 04:53:18,350 --> 04:53:20,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: masama sa kanya at dun sa makikilahok. 1222 04:53:20,830 --> 04:53:22,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That's an accepted... 1223 04:53:22,930 --> 04:53:30,470 Lemuel G. Ortoño: For the office and the, ano sir, for the... people who will be, say for example, attending mga events, sir. 1224 04:53:30,590 --> 04:53:35,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kaya hindi lang kay VP, pati sa mga taong makikilahok dun sa event. Para ligtas silang lahat dun. 1225 04:53:36,310 --> 04:53:37,130 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, Your Honor. 1226 04:53:37,350 --> 04:53:49,530 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yan po yung sinabi sa inyo ni Colonel Lachica na rason kung bakit siya namigay ng pera sa iba't ibang informant sa pamamagitan ng reward o pera pambili ng gamot, ng silya, ng computer, ng pag-aing. 1227 04:53:50,170 --> 04:53:50,970 Lemuel G. Ortoño: Yes, Your Honor. 1228 04:53:51,470 --> 04:53:51,970 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That 1229 04:53:51,970 --> 04:53:58,350 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: would be all, Mr. Ortonio. Senator-Judge Zubiri. So, veil of the first round. 1230 04:54:00,550 --> 04:54:51,480 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I was not going to ask any more questions. I won't be asking a question to the witness. More to address the court. Can we make, because this is a recurring theme, halos sa lahat ng mga testigo, ang sinasabi po nila at minsan mga tanong ng prosecution or defense and prosecution ay ito bang Finding ng COA, hindi pa siya final. It is yet under my motion for reconsideration. Ika nga, binanggit nga kanina ng ating testigo. Can this court make representation with the COA? If possible, during the duration of this trial, so that we may be guided as judges. Can they make their finding already with finality? Eh, who knows? They may say na wala namang nangyaring kalokohan. 1231 04:54:53,020 --> 04:56:36,990 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Itong article ay tapos na. E pag sinabi naman talaga nila ay masyadong glaring yung mga violations, then tayo bilang mga judges will also be clarified kung meron talagang misuse of funds. Kasi yung arbiter talaga nito is COA. Di ba? Lahat ng misuse of funds ng government agencies, it is the COA that makes that determination. and then before it is taken up to another court which is sa Digan Bayan, the Ombudsman. Pero sana po, Mr. Presiding Officer, this is an appeal to the COA. I know there is what you call a due process for the parties but I think the filing for the motion for consideration was done a few months ago or I think it was in 2000. The findings came out 2024 or 2025. Medyo matagal na. and if there was a motion for reconsideration on the part of the Vice President, maybe it would be prudent that they already come up with a decision of finality, Mr. Presiding Officer, and copy-furnish this impeachment court because it would be very important. Kasi ang sagot palagi ng testigo, May motion for reconsideration pa kami. Hindi pa final po yan, Your Honors. So, for the guidance of each and every one of us here, may we appeal to the Commission on Audit, I'm sure they're listening, can they already come out with finality on this issue so that we may be guided by The arbiter, the final arbiter when it comes to issues of misuse of funds. Yun lang po, Mr. President. 1232 04:56:36,990 --> 04:56:37,490 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: By way of 1233 04:56:37,490 --> 04:56:57,720 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: reply, Senator-Judge Zubiri, the Commission on Audit is an independent constitutional commission and I doubt if we would be well within our rights to compel them, similar to Amandamos, to act. One way or the other on this matter. Secondly, 1234 04:56:57,760 --> 04:56:59,320 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: I think 1235 04:56:59,320 --> 04:57:28,540 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the period to file an appeal under 45 or under 65 by certiorari of the ruling of the COA Commission and Bank has not yet lapsed. And the period to file a reconsideration has not yet lapsed too. It is yet to be, the respondent I think has until October to file a motion for reconsideration. So, it's not yet in the hands of the Commission at this point in time. But having said that, thirdly, 1236 04:57:28,560 --> 04:57:29,740 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: there are 1237 04:57:29,740 --> 04:57:41,760 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: cases decided by the Supreme Court to the effect that a final determination of COA is not necessary for a case to be heard and tried. 1238 04:57:43,340 --> 04:57:47,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, this does not preclude the impeachment court, if at all, from 1239 04:57:47,500 --> 04:57:47,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: deciding 1240 04:57:47,860 --> 04:57:49,260 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: based on available evidence. 1241 04:57:50,090 --> 04:57:55,070 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in regard to the articles of impeachment pending before us. 1242 04:57:55,310 --> 04:58:14,430 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: Pero Mr. Presiding Officer, napakabigat na mga akusasyon na binabanggit natin dito na yung araw na ito sa Vice Presidente. Napakabigat. That's not that way on to the Commission. Although it's an independent body, that prudence dictates that they must act with, of course, following the 1243 04:58:16,540 --> 04:59:12,590 Sen. Juan Miguel “Migz” F. Zubiri: What you call due process. Kung October, sinasabi nga natin di nga ito matatapos ng December. So, it is well within the period. I, myself, as one of the judges of this impeachment court, want to see the final observation report or findings of the Commission on Audit. That is an appeal to them. As I said, we cannot compel them. They are an independent constitutional branch of government. But for example, budget season starts next week. They will come. Maybe we can ask that question to them. How long will it take before this finding comes out? Because we want to know. I cannot make that decision. It's very difficult sometimes to make a decision without The final decision made by the Commission on Audit. I think it would be very important, Your Honor. Just putting that on the record. Thank you. 1244 04:59:25,360 --> 04:59:32,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Colonel Boran Singh, we furnished parties with a copy of his letter dated August 25 stating 1245 04:59:32,240 --> 05:00:13,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that he cannot make it given that he needed to coordinate with his superiors before being able to leave his post as prescribed by the standard operating procedures in the Armed Forces of the Philippines and requests that he instead be called on September 1. I am constrained to grant that, Hon. Bistro, Atty. Sheila, given the exigencies of his position. that he is the commanding officer of Task Force Zamboanga and cannot leave simply because he received a subpoena and would need certain preparations before he can leave his post. Let the corresponding subpoena, if it has 1246 05:00:13,900 --> 05:00:50,050 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: not yet been issued, be issued for Colonel Buran Singh II on September 1. Number 2, insofar as Colonel Baj... Major General Bajau, retired, is concerned. The address given was not received by the Armed Forces of the Philippines. He is retired. So may I instruct the prosecution to kindly coordinate with either the Philippine Veterans Affairs Office or the AFP Pension and Gratuity Management Center to get an 1247 05:00:50,050 --> 05:01:03,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: address. I'm sure he's receiving his pension from somewhere. and that would be a good place to look. The court cannot issue a subpoena properly to Major General Bajau without an address, 1248 05:01:03,780 --> 05:01:08,300 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: counsel. Bahao. In regard to the third, sitting third, 1249 05:01:08,870 --> 05:01:10,790 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Panopio, Your Honor. 1250 05:01:12,980 --> 05:01:21,220 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, in regard to Colonel Panopio, he was subpoenaed to appear on September 1, thinking that Colonel 1251 05:01:21,220 --> 05:01:53,670 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Buransing would be here today. Therefore, there are no other witnesses to be presented by the prosecution today. So, next week, we are expecting Colonel Boran Singh, Colonel Panopio, and hopefully, we would be able to find Major General Bahao. If you will still persist in those three witnesses, Honorable Luistro. 1252 05:01:53,990 --> 05:02:05,310 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Your Honor, we respectfully inform the honorable impeachment court that we are now dropping the presentation of Colonel Bahao. Nevertheless, we maintain Major 1253 05:02:05,310 --> 05:02:06,230 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: General Major 1254 05:02:06,230 --> 05:03:03,360 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: General Bahao, Your Honor. We maintain the position to present both Colonel Boransing and Colonel Panopio to whom the subpoenas have been ordered to be issued for September 1, 2026, Your Honor. But, In addition to that, Your Honor, and in order to maximize the schedule that is given to us by the honorable impeachment court for September 2, that is next Wednesday, Your Honor, we would like to respectfully move for the issuance of subpoena at testificandum to attorney Michael Wesley T. Powa, if the same should be necessary, as well as to Ms. Marisa B. Grande, of the Philippine Statistics Authority, Your Honor. If given opportunity next week, these two shall likewise be presented on September 2, Wednesday, Your Honor. 1255 05:03:03,880 --> 05:03:26,830 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Subject to the collatilia that should the other witness not appear, given that Attorney Poa is here and more than willing to testify as intimated earlier, then we jump to Attorney Poa. should the other earlier two witnesses fail to appear on September 1 without need of issuing a subpoena to Attorney Poa. He is so informed in open court. 1256 05:03:27,680 --> 05:03:29,200 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: We submit to that, Your Honor. 1257 05:03:29,520 --> 05:03:41,980 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So ordered. Other matters, yesterday afternoon, the prosecution filed a motion to set a conference for the marking of additional exhibits, particularly documents received from the Philippine Statistics Authority. 1258 05:03:43,630 --> 05:04:00,250 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The prosecution seeks to set the conference at 4 p.m. today. This is quite a simple motion, Atty. Sheila. The motion is granted. The Clerk of Courts is directed to conduct a marking of additional exhibits at 4 o'clock this afternoon at Rector Room and Councils 1259 05:04:00,250 --> 05:04:41,790 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: are directed to send representatives to attend the conference. The Presiding Officer is also in receipt of a request from the respondent. to be furnished with copies of the prosecution's pre-marked exhibits for Article 1, which counsel for respondent is likewise marked with the specifics. These being common exhibits, the request is hereby granted. The Clerk of Court is directed to furnish counsel for the respondent with copies of the requested pre-marked exhibits with understanding that the panel of prosecutors will be accorded the same courtesy should a similar request on the respondent's marked documents be made in the future. So ordered. 1260 05:04:42,010 --> 05:04:42,550 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Your Honor. 1261 05:04:43,780 --> 05:04:44,880 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Attorney Sheila? 1262 05:04:45,160 --> 05:05:12,000 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Given that opportunity given to the prosecution to mark additional documents, I would like to avail of the same opportunity. and if the situation calls for it, we will ask for an additional setting for conference to mark additional documents in preparation for our presentation so that in the interest of time, we can take advantage of these additional settings ordered by the court. 1263 05:05:12,160 --> 05:05:13,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let it so be granted without need 1264 05:05:13,860 --> 05:05:14,700 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: of an order 1265 05:05:14,700 --> 05:05:19,900 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: being issued by the court subject to the availability of the parties and the clerk of court. 1266 05:05:20,060 --> 05:05:20,860 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Thank you, Your Honor. 1267 05:05:22,170 --> 05:05:30,470 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Finally, we are in receipt of a prosecution's request for supplemental subpoena for other banks and financial 1268 05:05:30,470 --> 05:05:34,750 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: institutions. I presume, Attorney Sheila, you got a copy of the subpoena? 1269 05:05:35,940 --> 05:05:37,040 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: We did, Your Honor. 1270 05:05:37,920 --> 05:05:53,810 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Chair will simply adopt. and apply its ruling last July 20, 2026 concerning the subpoena issued to certain banking institutions involving the same subject matter and the same limitations will apply accordingly. 1271 05:05:54,050 --> 05:05:54,730 Sen. Erwin Tulfo: The 1272 05:05:54,730 --> 05:06:47,240 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: request for subpoena directed to the concerned banking institutions, I won't specify anymore because both parties have a copy, and financial institutions covering the respondent, her spouse, attorney Manassas Carpio, as well as 20 entities allowed by this Court. in which the spouses hold an interest is hereby granted. It is clear that the subpoena does not include foreign currency is limited only to peso-denominated accounts and not to foreign currency deposits as these are excluded without the written consent of the depositor. The Clerk of Court is directed to cause the assurance and service of the subpoenas to the entities requested to so submit. who shall produce the required documents before the Clerk of Court in seven calendar days from today or on September 2, Wednesday, next week, 2026. 1273 05:06:48,820 --> 05:06:49,560 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So ordered. 1274 05:06:49,880 --> 05:06:50,600 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Your Honor. 1275 05:06:50,740 --> 05:06:51,640 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Atty. Sheila. 1276 05:06:51,960 --> 05:07:12,820 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Given the position that we had articulated on this matter of the subpoena with respect to bank records and other materials subject of that subpoena, we will just want to place it on record that we will be or we are reserving our right to comment and to put our appropriate objections at the proper time. Thank you. 1277 05:07:12,880 --> 05:07:15,040 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: On the record. On the record, Your Honor. Yes. Your 1278 05:07:15,040 --> 05:07:15,460 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: Honor, please. 1279 05:07:15,640 --> 05:07:22,330 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And or seek further remedies as is available to you. That's correct, Your Honor. Outside of this court. Yes, Honorable Huisro? 1280 05:07:22,730 --> 05:07:44,060 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: We would like to respectfully manifest to the Honorable Impeachment Court that almost simultaneously to the reading of the ruling of the Honorable Impeachment Court on the issue of subjudice rule, the respondent Vice President made a public statement which 1281 05:07:44,060 --> 05:07:44,320 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: is— I know 1282 05:07:44,320 --> 05:07:49,160 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: where you're leading at, counsel. Naunahan mo lang ako. I thought you were going to take up another matter so let me cut you short. 1283 05:07:49,450 --> 05:07:50,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes. 1284 05:07:52,470 --> 05:08:45,080 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: While the Presiding Officer was delivering its ruling on the applicability, limitation, and who is covered by Rule 18, a statement was issued by the impeached official, the respondent, the Vice President, which clearly is covered. by what the ruling earlier given by the presiding officer issued. So, given that it was done while the ruling was being issued, prospectivity would still apply. However, the presiding officer would like to remind through the lead counsel for the respondent, her client, to kindly observe The ruling of the presiding officer as well as the rules of the impeachment court, specifically article or rule 18 on the subject matter in regard 1285 05:08:45,080 --> 05:08:54,820 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to making comments on the merits of the case because henceforth, again, given the prospectivity of the ruling, 1286 05:08:55,240 --> 05:09:10,110 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the necessary actions will be taken against her not only by the court but also given that she's a lawyer. via what the presiding officer earlier mentioned in relation to CIPRA and in relation 1287 05:09:10,110 --> 05:09:13,930 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: to the Office of the Bar Confident. Kindly inform her, Attorney Sheila. 1288 05:09:14,190 --> 05:09:15,270 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: We take note of that reminder, 1289 05:09:15,450 --> 05:09:15,730 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: Your Honor. 1290 05:09:15,730 --> 05:09:16,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Attorney Sheila. So just, 1291 05:09:16,950 --> 05:09:23,190 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: it will form part of the record, Your Honor. May I be allowed to read that portion of the statement of 1292 05:09:23,190 --> 05:09:24,690 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the respondent vice president? 1293 05:09:24,970 --> 05:09:37,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I think this is not necessary, Your Honor. No need. No need. Again, I find it unacceptable and it will be commenting on the merits and no need to read it in the records. The court can take, in fact, judicial notice of that should it so desires. Senator-Judge Aquino. 1294 05:09:39,490 --> 05:10:10,890 Sen. Paolo Benigno “Bam” Aquino: Mr. President, for the benefit of everyone, may I be clarified again? What are the possible penalties for breaking or not following your decision po earlier? Kapag senator-judge, it goes to the Committee on Ethics, tama po, no? Yes. Kapag mga miyembro po ng councils, ano po yung mga posibleng penalty? Kapag respondent or complainant, ano po yung mga posibleng penalty? Kapag ibang tao po, kasama po ba sila sa... We will 1295 05:10:10,890 --> 05:10:23,870 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: issue the corresponding guidelines, Senator-Judge Bam, for the information of Senator-Judges that it will be in a clear table form. But to 1296 05:10:23,870 --> 05:10:37,170 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: answer your question, reprimand and admonition followed by a fine for the second offense and fines subsequently thereafter without prejudice to referring the matter should it violate their obligations as an officer 1297 05:10:37,170 --> 05:10:50,610 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: of the court without prejudice to referring the matter to the Supreme Court, the IBP, and or the Office of the Bar confident if any violation may have been committed by them. But you will issue the guidelines in relation to that. 1298 05:10:52,100 --> 05:10:55,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Honorable Luista, anything else? We have no other manifestation, Your Honor. 1299 05:10:56,280 --> 05:10:56,860 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Sheila? 1300 05:10:57,400 --> 05:10:58,080 Atty. Sheila C. Sison: We're good, Your Honor. 1301 05:10:58,240 --> 05:11:04,500 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We promise to provide a, what do you call it? A platform, should it be so necessary. 1302 05:11:04,940 --> 05:11:08,680 Rep. Gerville “Jinky Bitrics” R. Luistro: May we request, Your Honor, that the witness, Mr. Ortoño, be excused. 1303 05:11:09,000 --> 05:11:26,180 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Ortonio. I thought the administrative matters would not take this long. Yes, Mr. Ortonio, you are excused. Maraming salamat po sa inyong panahon, sa inyong kooperasyon, at sa pagsagot po sa katanungan ng senator-judges at sa magkabilang partido. Thank you for your time, sir. You are excused. Thank 1304 05:11:26,180 --> 05:11:27,880 Lemuel G. Ortoño: you very much, Your Honor. Thank you. The 1305 05:11:27,880 --> 05:11:35,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: trial is adjourned until 10 a.m. or still 10 a.m. On Tuesday, 1306 05:11:35,410 --> 05:11:39,210 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: given that Monday is a holiday, September 1, 2026. 1307 05:11:41,750 --> 05:11:44,710 Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Session will be at 3.30 according to the Senate President.