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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: The Senate President, the Presiding Officer of the Impeachment Court, and the Senator-Judges.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Sgt. at Arms is directed to make a proclamation.

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Alfredo Sotto Corpuz: All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the Impeachment Court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator Judge Christopher Bongo.

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Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Almighty and loving God, O Allah, we come before you today with humility, mindful of the solemn duty entrusted to us and the weight of the decisions that lie ahead. Grant us wisdom to discern what is right, courage to uphold the truth and fairness in every judgment we make. Keep us from prejudice, Anger, personal interest, and political pressure. Help us listen with patience, speak with honesty, and act according to conscience, the Constitution, and the welfare of the Filipino people. Gabayanin niyo kaming lahat ng may tungkulin sa mga pagdinig na ito, naway ang bawat panig ay mabigyan ng pagkakataong marinig, ang bawat ebedensya ay mapag-aralang mabuti, at ang bawat pasya Ay nakabatay sa katotohanan, katarungan at tamang proseso. Remind us that public office is a sacred trust. May we never lose sight of the people whose lives are affected by our words, our actions, and our decisions. Let the pursuit of truth strengthen our institutions and deepen our commitment to serve with integrity and compassion.

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Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Lord, bring healing to our nation. Where there is division, grant us understanding, patience, and unity. Where there is distrust, restore faith. Where there is fear and anger, give us calmness and restraint. When these proceedings are concluded, help us move forward together, naway makabalik na kami sa aming pangunahing tungkulin. Ang magservisyo at maglingkod sa ating mga kababayan. Now ay maitoon naming muli ang aming buong pansin sa paglilingkod sa ating mga kababayan lalo na sa mga higit na nangangailangan. Lastly, may the Philippine Senate remain united in fulfilling its role as the last bastion of democracy. Within these halls, may truth prevail and the true voice of the Filipinos be heard.

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Sen. Christopher Bong Go: May compassion for others be a steadfast virtue. We live by in our words and in our actions. And may we, your senator judges, be instruments of your grace in the pursuit of peace, justice, and the common good. All this we ask in your holy name. Amen.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Clerk of Court will now call the roll.

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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Call of members. Senator-Judge Aquino; Senator-Judge Cayetano, Alan; Senator-Judge Cayetano, Pia; Senator-Judge Dela Rosa; Senator-Judge Ejercito; Senator-Judge Estrada; Senator-Judge Go; Senator-Judge Hontiveros; Senator-Judge Lacson; Senator-Judge Lapid; Senator-Judge Legarda; Senator-Judge Marcoleta; Senator-Judge Marcos; Senator-Judge Padilla; Senator-Judge Pangilinan; Senator-Judge Sotto III; Senator-Judge Tulfo, Erwin; Senator-Judge Tulfo, Raffy; Senator-Judge Villanueva; Senator-Judge Villar, Camille; Senator-Judge Villar, Mark; Senator-Judge Zubiri;

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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Presiding Officer Senator-Judge Escudero; Senate President Gatchalian.

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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: With 19 senators present, the Chair declares the presence of a quorum.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of the body, if there are no objections, we dispense with the reading of the July 13, 2026 Journal of the Senate sitting as an Impeachment Court

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: and shall consider the same as approved.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The clerk will please call the case before the impeachment court.

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Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.: Case number 0042026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sarah Zimmerman Duterte.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Appearances for

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the prosecution.

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Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Good afternoon, your honors.

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Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Respect. Same appearance for the prosecution. We are ready, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the respondent.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Good afternoon, your honors. Same appearance for the defense.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I see that Atty. Lotoc is already situated in the witness stand.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: To remind you, Atty. Lotoc, you shall continue with your testimony and be subjected to the continuation of cross-examination of counsel for respondent and shall be answering under the same oath that you took yesterday. Is that clear, sir?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Respondent counsel, may now continue with this cross-examination. Atty. Pinduan, you are recognized and may proceed whenever you are recognized.

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Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Your Honor, before we proceed, may I request that counsel for the panel of prosecutors, Atty. Virgil D. Ligutan, be recognized once more for the examination of our second witness.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel for the prosecutors, Atty. Ligutan is recognized on the part of the panel of prosecutors. Again, to reiterate, Atty. Vinluan, when you are ready, you may proceed with the continuation of your cross-examination of the witness, Atty. Lotoc.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Good afternoon, Atty. Lotoc.

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Good afternoon, sir.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, yesterday, you identified videos, correct? And specifically portions of the November 23, 2024 press conference? All right. Now, in that press conference, VP Sara spoke about a lot of topics, correct?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: words, she

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: said many statements in that presscon. My question is this, do you know for sure that V.P. Sara's statements during that presscon happened in real life? In real life?

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Rejection, Your Honor. Incompetent. The statements happening in real life as to the real life of the Vice President, this witness is being asked that question. Of course, the witness is incompetent, Your Honor, please. Council

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: kindly reform. It seems the witness did not understand the question.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Let me

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: help you. I'm showing you also a portion of our exhibit D- 1-145-8 This is the whole version of the video that you, the portions that you identified yesterday. And particularly, I'll show you timestamp 51-07 or colon 07 onwards of the video. In this video, the Vice President mentioned about events that happened inside the Batasang Pambansa. Can we play that video, please?

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Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Dapat sa demokrasya, there's a rule of law. And

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Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: then they make rules as they go along.

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Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: The speaker, get her out of the House of Representatives. Kasi hindi siya dapat nandiyan. Bakit? Pag mapayari niyo ba itong compound na ito? And sasabihin pa nila sa akin that there is a threat to my life inside the... Patasang pambansa? Why is there a threat to my life?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. My question to you is this.

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, point of clarification, if I may, please.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: for the prosecutor is recognized.

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, there is a video that is marked in evidence capturing the events on November 23, 2024. And here we have the defense.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, may we just do an objection, Your Honor? Wait, wait, I'm explaining. This is not the time for lecture, Your Honor. Counsel,

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I have not yet recognized you. Let counsel for the prosecutor finish.

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Point of clarification, they are presenting a video with anecdotes. I'm now questioning the propriety of the defense presenting a video without laying the basis where this video came from. Who is the source of those annotations there too? Because, Your Honor, there's a video. They're confronting this witness with that video by presenting their own annotated, it's like a props, Your Honor, please. This is highly irregular

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: in the court of law. Counsel for the respondent, is this the video previously marked in evidence? Your Honor,

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: as I mentioned, we marked it in evidence as D-4-3, Your Honor. And this was also marked by the prosecution as their own. They have a separate marking for this, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is part of the two-hour and so-and-so minute video?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Correct, Your Honor. At any rate, Your

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honor, if I may be allowed to finish... Counsel for the

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Prosecutor, kindly hold on. At

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: any rate, Your

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honor... Council for

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the Respondent.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The chair is not yet done. And the annotation below the video, is that part of the marked video?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This is part, Your Honor, of a separate exhibit that is also part of the Articles of Impeachment Annex G., Your Honor. This is Mr. Kalilong's own transcription of the video. Just to be clarified. But who put it there? We just placed it there, Your Honor. So we will... We're making him identify actually the video as well as the appropriate transcription which are both part of the Articles of Impeachment and Annex G-9. So the question is, can you confirm for certain that these statements or any part thereof happened in real

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: life? Can you give me the timestamp, Your Honor?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Timestamp 51:07. Your Honor, if I may refer to my notes.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may do so, sir.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Anong timestamp, sir?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: 51:07.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: To help this Honorable Court, Your Honor, it appears on page 84, more or less, of the Articles of Impeachment, Annex G-9, Your Honor. This is the transcription of Agent John Mark Kalilong dated December 26, 2024.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: For the record, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted.

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Puwede kong patingin na lang?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: 51:07.

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Show it.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, in the interest of time, can we confront the witness with our own copy?

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your own copy of what, Counsel? Of

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the Articles of Impeachment, Annex G. Niner. Well,

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, Assisting Counsel for the Prosecutor is there. If in case there are any problems, kindly confirm. If indeed, that is the document being shown to the witness.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Page 14. That is page 14 of the affidavit of transcription. Page 14.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, I manifest that we are showing that specific portion on the transcript prepared by Agent Kalilong of the NBI.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But actually, Your Honor, even without consultation, With the transcript, my answer is very simple. I'm just asking your honor. My question, I'm sorry, is very simple. My only question is, does he know for certain that these statements or any part of these statements happened in real life?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So do

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you confirm that the statements were made by the Vice President, Mr. Witness?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: It's here in the transcription, Your Honor, yes.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, no, no. My question is not whether she made the statement. My question is if you know, based on your personal knowledge, if any statement or a portion thereof happened in real life. That's the question.

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, Your Honor, the fact that we have the video on November 26 when the Vice President reiterated. What she uttered in November 23, 2024. At the same time, Your Honor, may we allow

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the witness to answer?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, we invited the media personalities who have personal knowledge on that date and on that online press conference. And nung tinanong namin sila kung nag-participate sila, sabi nila yes, nakausap nila yung vice-presidente, nagbigay sila ng mga katanungan. So definitely yes, nangyari po iyon.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, may we make a manifestation?

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Counsel.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, it appears that the witness is not being responsive to our question. He's talking about something that I did not ask. We are only focusing on this particular statement. We will show other statements later on. And we cannot get an answer from him. If

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: he knows. Counsel, Even I am confused with the question happened in real life. I think some of us are too.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I'll be more specific. If the

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: question is kung alam niyo bang nangyari ito sa totoong buhay, ang sagot ng testigo ay sa pagkakaalam niya ay oo, base sa kanilang investigasyon at sinabi ng mga inimbitahan nilang testigo.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, I'll clarify the question. Alright, in this statement, For example, the vice president said, there were threats to my life inside the Batasang Pambansa. Are you confirming that?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: That is within the transcription here, sir.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, my question to you is this. Did you investigate those threats to VP Sara's life? I'm not yet done. Did you investigate the threat to VP Sara's life during that time? Objection.

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now, misleading, Your Honor. Because the question was, do you confirm that that statement is found in the transcription? As to the Vice President saying that there were threats to her life. And then the witness said, yes, I confirm that I can find it in the transcription. Now the next question of the good counsel is, so did you investigate the threats? That is the classic misleading question. Can we

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: get the ruling, Your Honor?

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He's a lawyer. Atty. Lotoc is a lawyer and he knows exactly what's going on. Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. What's your answer?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: What's the question, sir?

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: The question is, she mentioned there about the threats to his life. My question is simple. Did you investigate the threats to VP Sara's life during that time? You mean during the live stream, sir? During that time, correct. During that live stream. She mentioned that there were threats to her life.

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, based on our investigation, nangyari yung live stream. Between 11 p.m. 22 to 1 a.m. 23. And then nalaman namin nung kumalat siya sa social media nung mga hapon na, kaya nag-start kami ng investigation. At that time, hindi pa namin alam yung buong laman ng video na yan kasi nag-start pa lang kami. So I instructed Agent Kalilong na siya maging agent on case. And then kunin niya yung video, the whole video para sa authentication. Atty. Lutong, kindly

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: answer the question directly. So I get from your long answer that the answer is no?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Specifically at that live stream moment, no, sir. Hindi pa namin

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: alamin. That was the

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: question of Atty. Vinluan, if you investigated at that time. So the answer is no?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay. Please

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: proceed. But later on, you said you did an investigation. So are you admitting that there were threats to the life of VP Sara?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Precisely, that's the reason why we sent a December 2, 2024 letter for VP Sara to shed light on our investigation.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, I'll move on to a different part of the video. On page also of Exhibit D-1-145-A, this now pertains to timestamp 5930 onwards of the video recording.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So page 15 of the affidavit of transcription, also by Agent Calilung of the NBI, dated December 26, 2024. Can we show that video and then provide the appropriate transcript? Can you play that again, please?

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Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Iyong Speaker mo, pinabayaan mong sayangin ang pera ng bayan. Paikot-ikot sa buong bansa, namimigay ng pera na parang kaniya iyong pera. E ba nga lagi ninyong sinasabi, separation of powers? Anong trabaho ng legislative branch? Gumawa ng batas.

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Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Anong ginagawa ni Martin Romualdez? Namimigay ng ayuda.

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Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Nagsasabi kung anong ibibigay, anong gagawin, sino ba ang—

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. So my question to you is this. Having watched that video and read the transcript,

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: my question is very simple: do you know for sure if this statement by the Vice President, or any part thereof, happened in real life?

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, Your Honor, as I've said, I've answered it already. Noong inimbestigahan namin iyan, iyong video—

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: no answer will suffice, Your Honor.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly answer more directly to save on the Court's time, Atty. Lotoc.

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, based on our investigation, yes, it happens in the natural order of things. Nangyari talaga yan.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So in other words, you're admitting that Martin Romualdez goes around the country to distribute

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Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: money? I'm saying, nangyari ho iyong utterances na iyan.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's not my question. That's precisely my point. I'm not asking if she made the statements. I'm asking if the truth of these statements you have personal knowledge of. So be more direct in your answer. That's why I

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: have to object now, Your Honor, now. There are several statements made and then the witness is being asked, do you confirm the statements? Compound question. Exactly. That's the reason why we don't allow. There are so many statements. O sinasabi gumawa ng batas. So siguro yung tanong is, did this happen in real life? So this witness being confronted with several statements and he is being asked to answer a yes or no. That's why it's compound question.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, my question is the statements or any part thereof, Your Honor. The witness is smart enough to answer. He can just clarify.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The objection is sustained but not on that ground but rather on the ground that the witness is incompetent to testify as to the truth of the matter stated by the Vice President. He can only testify as to the fact that those statements were made only as to tenor but not as to the truth given that he only investigated and was not there. You may proceed, Counsel.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In that case, Your Honor, if we confront also Just a manifestation, Your Honor. Yes, you may proceed. In other words, Your Honor, we would like to manifest, Your Honor, based on that ruling of the Court, that even if VP Sara said that she already talked to a person, then we cannot confirm the truth because this witness does not have personal knowledge. That's a conclusion, objection. That's just a manifestation for the Court's appreciation. Can I just

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: proceed with my next question, Your Honor? Can I counter

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: -manifestation, Your Honor, please? Counter-manifestation, please. To put into record, Your Honor, please.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For about 15 seconds, counsel, yes. Okay,

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Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The defense is entitled to their own conception of things. They're entitled to their own imagination. That's all.

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Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel may proceed with his cross.

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Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just to belabor this point, Your Honor. Annex D-1-145-A. Anyway, Your Honor, they showed around seven to eight videos yesterday, so we'll show about four. This pertains to timestamp 1:08:58. And we will also present page 17 of the affidavit of transcription, also by Agent Calilung, dated December 26, 2024. In this video clip, the Vice President mentioned the former Speaker of the House and the confidential funds of the Office of the President. Can we play that video?

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Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Hindi ka dumadaan ng contest, eh, kasi wala kang kalaban sa Tacloban. Binibili mo, pinapa-kidnap mo, pinapatay mo ang mga kalaban mo. Hindi ka dumaan ng contest. Alam mo lang, 'Bibilhin ko lahat ng tao.' You think money is everything. That is nothing new. It's money. Iyan naman iyong katotohanan. Walang presidente man, Vice President man. [unclear] Hindi ko nga alam kung mananalo ka pa ngayon sa Tacloban. Hindi na. Gusto mo sa lahat, sa buong Pilipinas, ibalik ka sa Kongreso? Hindi lahat ng tao pupunta riyan doon sa Tacloban. [unclear] Kayo, dumadaan sa [unclear] certification lang, congressman. One million, two million, pirma lang. Alam mo ba bakit alam ko? Kasi may confi din ako. Ako, sa DepEd, may confi ako sa OVP. Sa amin, nire-require ako ng resibo. Alam ko certification lang ang [unclear], pero nagko-comply ako. Bigay lahat ng resibo. Ikaw, confi mo lang. Hindi mo nga ata pirma; pirma lang ng staff mo iyan, eh. [unclear] Lumalabas pera. Pirma ninyo lang. Confidential funds, Office of the President, iyong Speaker. Hindi ko nasabing kriminal siya. Tingnan ninyo iyong kaso niya sa United States of America.

00:31:09.060 --> 00:31:16.840
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. Again, my question based on this video is very simple, and this pertains to Martin Romualdez and the President.

00:31:16.800 --> 00:31:26.460
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can you confirm, or do you know for sure, that these statements about Martin Romualdez or the President are true?

00:31:26.800 --> 00:31:36.180
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay. Your Honor, I will object on the same ground, and I hope the Presiding Officer will make the same ruling.

00:31:37.020 --> 00:31:39.520
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: This witness is incompetent. I know what the defense is doing,

00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:40.100
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Your Honor.

00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:44.320
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection. Incompetent. This witness is highly incompetent

00:31:44.320 --> 00:31:48.180
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: as to whether he knows whether those statements are in fact

00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:48.420
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: happening. What's the

00:31:48.420 --> 00:31:55.740
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: ground for the objection? Can we just be informed of the ground for the objection? I just said it. Incompetent. This witness is incompetent.

00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:56.800
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can we get the ruling, Your Honor?

00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:04.760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Chair made an earlier ruling already. The witness is incompetent to testify as to the truth of the matter. But since, Atty. Lotoc, you're a

00:32:04.760 --> 00:32:13.070
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: lawyer, I will... Give it this time to the Council for the Respondents. Kindly respond. Since you're a

00:32:13.070 --> 00:32:18.110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: lawyer, you should know the proper answer to this question. Kindly respond to the

00:32:18.110 --> 00:32:19.310
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: question of Council for the Respondents.

00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:31.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, I do not know personally about the factual circumstances. What I know is that she uttered those statements.

00:32:32.850 --> 00:33:04.700
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We're satisfied with that answer, Your Honor. One last video. One last video. On page 87 of the Articles of Impeachment, Annex G. 9, this is timestamp 1-12-43. This is quite a lengthy video, but not as lengthy. But this is our last video, so we beg the court's indulgence. The affidavit of transcription, page 17, also of Agent Park Kalilong, dated December 26, 2024. Are we ready with that video?

00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:16.680
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Council for the Prosecutors. Because I know the Council will ask the same question. So at the same time, Your Honor, what is the objection? I'm not yet done. I'm

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:16.960
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: not yet done.

00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:19.740
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly let the Council for the Prosecutors finish. Relax.

00:33:19.940 --> 00:33:38.120
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now, Your Honor, if the same line of question will be asked, Okay. Your Honor. Wait, wait. I'm not yet done. He cannot preempt Your Honor. I'm not yet done. The prosecution is willing to stipulate that yes, The Vice President uttered that statement as to the fact of her uttering the statement.

00:33:38.360 --> 00:33:41.140
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We have a different question, Your Honor, just to satisfy his query.

00:33:41.840 --> 00:33:52.840
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: All right. So I guess the objection or manifestation is withdrawn, and counsel for respondent may proceed with the showing or playing of the video.

00:33:52.840 --> 00:34:04.140
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Kainin ninyo dito sa offices. Lahat ng juice, lahat ng mamahaling wine.

00:34:12.160 --> 00:34:59.580
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Pero iyong taong-bayan, iyong taong-bayan, ninyo sa [unclear] rice, iyong taong-bayan na hindi ninyo pinupuntahan sa mga komunidad nila, anong sabi nila? Asin lang. Okay na. May kanin naman. Ganiyan ang bayan natin. Okay na lang kami sa asin. [unclear] nakahanap ka ng bayan na ang tao, because of their hopelessness, because there is no functioning government, umaasa na lang sa asin.

00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:17.420
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: na nga lang abogado si Ernie Lopez eh.

00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:26.170
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Kasi alam niya kung ano sasabihin niya doon sa mga pumasok sa kwarto niya.

00:35:27.930 --> 00:35:31.270
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Na take note, nag-nakao pa ng cellphone. Ano

00:35:32.550 --> 00:35:39.820
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: ka nakahanap? Papasok ka, nanangkawin mo yung cellphone. Nadalhin mo pa yung tao, Princess.

00:35:51.460 --> 00:35:52.460
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: You're raising your hand.

00:36:00.640 --> 00:36:03.820
Princess Maui: Hello? Naririnig po ba ako? Princess Maui?

00:36:06.610 --> 00:36:07.130
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Yes.

00:36:07.820 --> 00:36:25.640
Princess Maui: Oh, thank you. Good morning po, Madam Vice President. Thank you so much na po pala sa dalan niyong Hopia nung hearing na pumunta kayo for PRRD. Kami yung nasa likod niyo po, yung tinawag nyo ng bastos kasi pumalak pa kami because of Congresswoman Cardema.

00:36:27.390 --> 00:36:34.750
Princess Maui: Thank you ma'am. Nakakain kami ha po po eh. Natatakot kumain ang pagkain doon mamamaya eh. Ma'am mag-iingat po kayo ha. Nasa teritoryo kayo ng kalaban.

00:36:35.330 --> 00:36:38.070
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Okay lang po kayo po ma'am kasi sila naman ako na eh.

00:36:38.170 --> 00:36:41.810
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Sila talaga yung bastos eh. You reap what you sow.

00:36:43.880 --> 00:37:52.090
Princess Maui: Mag-iingat po kayo kasi sa dinami-rami po ng inyong mga pasabog ngayong gabi, it seems like marami po talaga kayong alam about them no? Dahil sa pagkakasama niyo sa kanila. During the campaign and during the 2022 elections, baka po mamaya kasi totoo yung mga narinig namin or yung, I don't know if it's true, na meron daw silang Operation Romanovs and baka bala kayong ubusin ang inyong pamilya dahil hadlang kayo sa kanilang mga balakin in the future. So mag-iingat po kayo. Kami po kasi na, kami ng EDSA Friday group, kami yung bumababa every Friday dyan sa EDSA because we believe yan yung tamang venue. Sa dinami-narami na ng problema natin, ang kaya naman po namin gawin ay manawagan na bumaba na yan. Eh ano po kaya ang remedy naman ninyong mga nasa posisyon or nung mga kayang labanan itong napakarami na pong ginagawang corruption at krimen laban sa taong bayan? Ano po ang pwede ninyong maging remedy para matapos na ito? Lalo't nagsisigaw na po ang taong bayan na mag-people power na.

00:37:53.100 --> 00:38:10.170
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Yes. Huwag ka mag-alala, ma'am, sa security ko kasi may kinausap na ako na tao. Sinabi ko sa kanya, kapag pinatay ako, patayin mo si BBM, si Lisa Araneta at si Martin Romandes. No joke.

00:38:12.470 --> 00:38:14.890
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: No joke. Nag-deal-in na ako, ma'am.

00:38:16.430 --> 00:38:21.550
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Kapag namatay ako, sabi ko, huwag ka tumigila hanggang hindi mo magpatay sila.

00:38:23.500 --> 00:38:24.460
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: And then he said yes.

00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:49.020
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: So, alam mo, ma'am, Ang laban nandun sa loob ng palasyo. Yan ang problema.

00:38:51.370 --> 00:39:03.970
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: We appreciate yung expression ninyo ng disgust, ng pagkamuhi,

00:39:10.590 --> 00:39:17.370
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Hopelessness, kasi it reflects kung ano yung nararamdaman ng

00:39:19.190 --> 00:39:30.400
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: marami, milyon, milyon. Alam ko yan, ma'am, kasi kahit saan ako pumunta, ako ang sinasabihan, binoto namin yan dahil sinabi mo, iboto namin.

00:39:36.450 --> 00:39:56.320
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: So, yes, ma'am. Maraming salamat sa ginagawa ninyo. Dahil sa ginagawa ninyo, I'm sure nakikita yan. Ang taong bayan, and naa-appreciate nila yan. Marami sa ating mga kababayan ang gusto sumali sa inyo. Pero sa sobrang hirap ng

00:39:57.050 --> 00:40:09.480
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: buhay ngayon, hindi nila maiwanan yung mga trabaho nila at hanap buhay nila para pumunta sa daan. Bakit sila naghihirap? Bakit?

00:40:11.010 --> 00:40:23.890
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Dahil sa gobyerno. Di ba dapat yung gobyerno na natin ang nagpapagaan ng buhay ng tao? Bakit ang gobyerno natin ang nagpapahirap lalo sa tao?

00:40:26.300 --> 00:40:47.850
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Kasi gusto ba nila lagi nalang mahirap ang mga tao para madali mapasunod? May mga lugar kami sa Mindanao na ganyan ang mga politiko. Gusto nila mahirap lahat. E bahugan lang nila ang puwarta.

00:40:49.380 --> 00:40:56.010
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Governor na sila. Mayor na sila. Congressman na sila. Hanapin niyo ma'am!

00:40:56.010 --> 00:41:19.250
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Yung mga lugar na sobrang hirap sa Mindanao, tingnan nyo anong gawain ng politiko. Pinapakain lang ng pera ang tao. Pinabastos yung kanilang pagkatao dahil wala silang pakialam. Erwin

00:41:21.140 --> 00:41:27.200
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Atty. Lotoc, she said a lot of statements in that portion of the video. In fact, that statement included the statement which you investigated, correct?

00:41:29.390 --> 00:41:34.300
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Included in the transcription, sir. All right.

00:41:34.640 --> 00:41:48.660
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now you get the point. My question to you is this. Can you confirm now that the statements she made about BBM, FL, and the former Speaker, and the Congressman, relating

00:41:50.490 --> 00:41:55.010
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: to various acts of corruption, are true and happened in real life?

00:41:55.390 --> 00:41:58.990
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: As to the existence of that utterances, yes, sir.

00:42:01.070 --> 00:42:06.050
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, so you just admitted that the congressmen are all correct. Thank you for that. That

00:42:06.050 --> 00:42:15.730
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: That is a foul side remark. Counsel is twisting the answer of the witness. Can I finish? Can I finish?

00:42:16.090 --> 00:42:25.510
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Can I finish? The witness said that he confirmed as to the fact that the utterances were made. That's why, Your Honor, I object.

00:42:25.950 --> 00:42:27.790
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly be more specific.

00:42:29.420 --> 00:42:32.360
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, you know what's being asked for.

00:42:32.540 --> 00:42:33.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

00:42:33.260 --> 00:42:35.840
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Finish and complete your answer to avoid the misunderstanding.

00:42:36.640 --> 00:42:50.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, based on our investigation, as to the existence of the utterances, yeah, dahil may mga pieces of evidence kami. But whether or not nangyari yan, wala akong personal knowledge, sir.

00:42:50.180 --> 00:42:57.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. In the same way, You also do not have personal knowledge that VP Sara contracted an assassin, correct?

00:42:57.370 --> 00:43:02.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, the video dated November 26, 2024. The Vice President reiterated and in fact—

00:43:02.970 --> 00:43:04.890
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just, it's answerable by Yes or No, Your Honor.

00:43:04.970 --> 00:43:16.990
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How can he be— Counsel, counsels, kindly settle down. This is not a college debate. Atty. Lotoc, the question was simple. Kindly answer the question directly.

00:43:17.830 --> 00:43:29.710
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. You do not have personal knowledge. That utterance as made by the vice president that she contracted a person, I do believe that's her because of the pieces of evidence that we've gathered, sir.

00:43:30.570 --> 00:43:43.550
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, I'm not asking whether or not she said those statements. I'm asking if you have personal knowledge based on this that the Vice President really contracted an assassin—sorry, a person.

00:43:44.770 --> 00:43:46.890
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Objection. Asked and answered. Second time around.

00:43:48.620 --> 00:43:57.360
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Based on our investigation, Your Honor, we do believe that the Vice President—

00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:08.280
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, you're a smart man. Just answer the question. Do you have personal knowledge?

00:44:08.460 --> 00:44:29.260
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You said that as to the other parts, you do not have personal knowledge. But now, my question to you is as to the part whether VP Sara talked to that person about BBM, the First Lady, and the Speaker: do you have personal knowledge or not? Pwede ko pong i-explain, Your Honor? No, just answer the question yes or no.

00:44:29.700 --> 00:44:43.380
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, this is not the first time you attended a trial. I'm sure counsel for the prosecutors and redirect will be able to clarify whatever you want to clarify. But in the meantime, answer the question of counsel for the respondent.

00:44:43.980 --> 00:44:58.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, we do believe that... The vice president had contracted, but I don't have personal knowledge. Kung personal knowledge ang gusto niyong malaman, pero we do believe based on the evidence that we've gathered and based on our investigation.

00:45:01.040 --> 00:45:02.340
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you for that admission.

00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:10.700
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. The presscon was broadcasted to the general public, correct?

00:45:13.070 --> 00:45:23.810
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Social media, sir, yes. In other words, everybody listening to it could hear the statements made by VP Sara? We believe so, sir, yes. Are you aware that the vice president is a lawyer?

00:45:24.740 --> 00:45:25.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Of course.

00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.260
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That he has, of course, a law degree and passed the bar exams?

00:45:28.600 --> 00:45:28.980
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

00:45:29.460 --> 00:45:40.660
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: With the first attempt and with the rating of 80%, are you aware of this? I heard it in the news, sir. Oh, she has a higher grade than most of the lawyers here. But are you aware that she also worked as a court attorney?

00:45:40.920 --> 00:45:43.900
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Relevance. Relevance. Objection. Relevance.

00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:53.080
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel for the respondent, kindly avoid those disparaging statements given that... There are a lot of lawyers here and you don't know what their grades are. We

00:45:53.080 --> 00:46:17.160
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: will comply, Your Honor. So my question to you is this. If she was serious about her alleged plan involving BBM, FL, and the former speaker, does it make sense for her that she would publicly announce this to the general public? If you know. I don't know that, Your Honor. Alright.

00:46:19.720 --> 00:46:26.360
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, you showed, in your direct examination, you also showed portions of the October 18 presscon, correct?

00:46:26.700 --> 00:46:27.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

00:46:27.860 --> 00:46:32.780
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And that presscon was also done in general, before the general public, correct?

00:46:33.430 --> 00:46:34.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I believe so, sir.

00:46:34.650 --> 00:46:45.910
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Based on your investigation or your experience as an investigator, kapag may balak bang patayin ng isang tao, sinasabi ba nila yung plano nila sa general public?

00:46:46.970 --> 00:46:51.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, kapag may grave threats, sir, naririnig iyon ng iba.

00:46:53.580 --> 00:47:06.690
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: my more important question to you is this. Did VP Sara directly say her statements to BBM, FL, and the former Speaker?

00:47:08.180 --> 00:47:13.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, the fact na sinabi niya yan in public, definitely narinig niya ng Presidente.

00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:14.860
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: May we ask for a more responsive answer?

00:47:16.300 --> 00:47:27.720
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: kindly answer. The answer is actually quite obvious. It's a simple question. Did the Vice President utter those statements directly towards the persons allegedly threatened?

00:47:27.980 --> 00:47:31.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: We believe so, Your Honor, because the utterances was made in public.

00:47:34.370 --> 00:47:35.310
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So what's the

00:47:35.310 --> 00:47:52.790
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: answer? Did VP Sara directly say those statements to BBM? FL and the former speaker. Ascon answered, he said, we believe so. But we did not get the responsive answer, Your Honor. Can we ask the witness to give a more responsive answer? That's his answer. We believe so.

00:47:52.830 --> 00:47:53.470
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Yes. That's a

00:47:53.470 --> 00:47:54.390
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: yes. That's so clear.

00:47:54.750 --> 00:48:01.230
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Without putting words into the mouth of the witness, I will be the one to ask. Atty. Lotoc, you meant yes, right?

00:48:01.670 --> 00:48:02.270
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

00:48:03.010 --> 00:48:03.650
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Proceed, counsel.

00:48:07.220 --> 00:48:07.680
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright.

00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:13.520
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Are you aware that in one interview following the press con,

00:48:15.710 --> 00:48:20.010
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: BBM mentioned that he was open for reconciliation with the Vice President.

00:48:20.370 --> 00:48:20.950
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I'm not

00:48:20.950 --> 00:48:26.210
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: aware of that. Not aware, okay. I'll make you aware today. Can we play D-4-12, please?

00:48:29.070 --> 00:48:35.070
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Mr. President, kayo po ba sa puso ninyo, gusto nyo bang makipagkasundo

00:48:35.070 --> 00:49:00.360
President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.: pa sa mga Duterte? Oo! Ako ayoko ng gulo. Gusto ko makasundo sa lahat ng tao. Mas maganda. Marami na akong kaaway. Hindi ko kailangan ng kaaway. Kailangan kong kaibigan. Kagaya na ang sabi ko sa'yo. Pagka... Magkakonfes ako dito. Pwede naman po. Para akong pari po dito ngayon ako.

00:49:02.290 --> 00:49:07.990
President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.: Ewan ko. Kahit hanggat maaari. Ako ang habol ko.

00:49:07.810 --> 00:49:28.440
President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.: iyong stability, peaceful, para magawa namin iyong trabaho namin. Kaya ako, lagi akong bukas sa ganyan. I'm always open to any approach na, halika, magtulungan tayo. Kahit hindi tayo magkasundo sa pulisiya, hindi tayo magkasundo, gawin na iyong trabaho, pero huwag na tayong [unclear].

00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:34.700
President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.: All right. Nangugulo. Huwag na natin, tanggalin natin iyong gulo.

00:49:34.900 --> 00:49:38.270
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Atty. Lotoc, so based on that video,

00:49:40.740 --> 00:49:55.320
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: BBM was open to reconcile with VP Sara, correct? Anong date po ng video, sir? We will provide the date in a while. They're researching on it. But even without the date, you can confirm. Hindi, gusto kong malaman kung anong date, sir. So

00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:59.560
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you cannot answer the question without us providing the date? Tinignan ko

00:49:59.560 --> 00:50:02.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: kung ilang buwan na yan after noong November 23. Alright.

00:50:06.140 --> 00:50:09.960
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Move on, Council. While you're checking on the date, you can go back to that topic.

00:50:12.340 --> 00:50:13.920
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, assuming...

00:50:13.920 --> 00:50:24.510
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: that this happened after, do you still maintain that BBM really believed, in his mind, that VP Sara would harm or kill him?

00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:36.910
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: How would I know that, Your Honor? Precisely. So you don't know. You cannot know that, Your Honor, correct? Because you cannot enter the state of mind of the President.

00:50:36.910 --> 00:50:52.480
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Unless there is a basis, Your Honor, gaya ng investigation namin sa utterances ni VP na may mga circumstances. Pag iyan lang ang nakita ko, siyempre hindi namin ma-establish iyong state of mind ng Presidente.

00:50:52.480 --> 00:51:00.180
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: isn't it in your affidavit of investigation, you mentioned about the state of mind of the president?

00:51:01.590 --> 00:51:03.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: State of mind of the president? Correct.

00:51:04.170 --> 00:51:22.900
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: After the statements of VP Sara, you interpreted the mind. It's like you went into the mind of the alleged offended parties, BBM, FL. And the speaker, and based on your own interpretation, you determined or concluded that they were threatened. Is that not the case?

00:51:23.340 --> 00:51:39.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, ang sinabi doon ng presidente, nakakabahala yung mga narinig natin itong mga nakaraang araw. And then isa itong kriminal na pagtatangka, ito'y aking papalagaan. So, at that moment, the president took the utterances serious and real, sir. But

00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:48.150
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you just... Based that on his own statement, you did not enter his state of mind, correct? Objection, Your Honor. I think, where is this leading?

00:51:49.590 --> 00:51:52.190
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: What's the objection? A witness is being asked to enter the state of mind.

00:51:52.190 --> 00:51:52.210
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: What's the

00:51:52.210 --> 00:51:56.290
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: basis for the objection, Your Honor? Incompetent. Incompetent.

00:51:57.170 --> 00:51:57.730
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Incompetent.

00:51:58.730 --> 00:52:09.940
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The witness already said that, based on their investigation and the statement of the President after the event, they determined that the President felt threatened.

00:52:09.940 --> 00:52:13.280
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: And the question now is: did you enter his state of mind?

00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:20.580
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, I'm now objecting on the reason that this person is incompetent to answer.

00:52:20.580 --> 00:52:28.600
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, we will be satisfied with just the basis. If he had said 'incompetent,' we would ask for a ruling. He doesn't have to lecture, Your Honor.

00:52:28.600 --> 00:52:32.720
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the record, kindly reform, counsel. I think I know where you're getting at.

00:52:32.720 --> 00:52:38.320
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. My question to you is this: do you have a background in forensic psychology?

00:52:39.500 --> 00:52:41.160
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Do you have a background on behavioral

00:52:41.160 --> 00:52:44.480
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: psychology? Well, we were taught about subject

00:52:44.480 --> 00:52:53.180
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: matter in the academy. Yes or no will do. Do you have a forensic psychology department in NBI's Cybercrime Division?

00:52:55.290 --> 00:53:09.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Forensic psychology? Yes. We have BSD. We have a medical legal department. Medical legal only? Okay. We have a psychiatrist. We have a psychologist. We have a...

00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:12.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: All of those, sir.

00:53:13.420 --> 00:53:27.420
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, in other words, you do not have a professional assessment of the mind of BBM when you conducted this affidavit of investigation, correct? Okay, sir.

00:53:27.640 --> 00:54:08.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: The investigation, ganito po ang nangyari. Nung nag-comment yung presidente na nakakabahala yung mga utterances, Pwede lang po doon, tinignan namin yung comment ng iba't ibang government agencies na ganoon din yung kanilang reaksyon. Nakakapahala yung sinabi ng vicepresidente, magiging issue yan ng national security. Pero lang po yun, kinonsider din namin yung comments at impression ng mga media personalities na nag-participate doon sa online press conference. Sabi nila na-shock sila, na bigla sila, hindi sila… Atty.

00:54:08.020 --> 00:54:31.260
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: parang totoo iyong galit ng Vice President. And then aside from that, from those facts, ganoon din ang ginawa namin sa former Speaker sa kaniyang reaction. So taking all these facts and circumstances, na-establish namin na indeed iyong reaction ng Presidente is trinato niya na seryoso at totoo iyong utterances na iyon na ginawa ni VP Sara noong November 23.

00:54:31.260 --> 00:55:04.330
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Atty. So, ito ho. Kaya lang dito, ipapakita niyo sa akin yan. Yan lang mag-isa. Hindi namin nakita yung ibang circumstances. Hindi ho ako makakapagsabi kung sa mind ng presidente is pinatawad na ba niya, ayaw na niya, hindi na ba niya kinukonsider yung mga threat na yon. Pag ganyan lang yun, honor. Sa investigation kasi kailangan makita namin yung ibang-ibang circumstance. Para ma-establish namin whether or not, ah, ito yung ibig niyang sabihin. Ito yung intention niya.

00:55:04.390 --> 00:55:10.370
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: For the record, Your Honor, the date of the video is May 19, 2025. So, this came after college.

00:55:10.610 --> 00:55:13.930
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2025. So, mga seven months, sir? Yeah, seven months.

00:55:15.420 --> 00:55:20.600
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, so, based on your experience as an investigator, baka pwedeng ano na?

00:55:21.060 --> 00:55:26.300
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, hindi sa sufficient para makita namin kasi...

00:55:27.910 --> 00:55:28.390
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Anyway, we know for a fact na—

00:55:28.450 --> 00:55:31.670
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: we're satisfied with your first answer. The

00:55:31.670 --> 00:55:32.450
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: witness is still answering.

00:55:33.110 --> 00:55:35.350
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I didn't even ask a question, your honor.

00:55:35.510 --> 00:55:41.470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You did, counsel, when you gave the date and asked for his opinion. Kindly finish your answer.

00:55:41.710 --> 00:56:23.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Thank you, your honor. As lawyers, we know for a fact that the state of mind can manifest based on the overt acts of the speaker. So dito kasi, kung ito lang ang pagbabatayan namin, Then we try to establish yung intent or yung state of mind ng presidente. Kulang ho yan. So siguro kung may makikita pa kami yung ibang circumstances na magpapatunay na binaliwala niya niya yung utterances, pinatawad niya niya yung vice-presidente, and things like that, then we can somehow say mukha nga ang totoo yung sinabi ng presidente na pinatawad niya.

00:56:23.390 --> 00:56:25.810
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right, but I'll move on to a different point.

00:56:27.090 --> 00:56:32.470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before counsel for the respondent continues, what is the pressure of Senator Judge Cayetano? Just

00:56:32.470 --> 00:56:54.080
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: one specific clarification on that point, just so that we don't lose the point. The gentleman may proceed. Excuse me lang sa prosecution and sa defense. Witness, one point lang, maybe one or two questions on that point. Sabi mo, the President, sa pananaw mo, and yung iba... Speaker Martin felt threatened.

00:56:55.070 --> 00:57:02.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Base doon sa investigation namin. Base sa investigation at base sa video. Base sa video, sa investigation at sa ibang testimony.

00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:12.520
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So if they felt threatened, that means tingin nila totoo yung sinabi ni VP Sara na patayin sila.

00:57:14.410 --> 00:57:21.060
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Kasi they wouldn't feel threatened if they don't think na she meant it na patayin silang tatlo, right?

00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:22.320
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In our investigation,

00:57:24.600 --> 00:57:27.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Trinato nila iyong utterances as seryoso. Yes.

00:57:27.440 --> 00:57:30.940
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So they won't feel threatened unless tingin nila seryoso yung threat.

00:57:31.890 --> 00:57:34.330
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: According to them, seryoso yung threat. Yes. Okay.

00:57:34.450 --> 00:57:48.780
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: But the threat was, pag pinatayin niyo ako, papatayin ko kayo. So kung hindi naman nila sila balak patayin, why would they feel threatened? Unless you're saying now, you think, balak nga nilang papatayin si Vice President.

00:57:49.020 --> 00:57:58.660
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Actually, sir, ito, from the point of view of law enforcement like us, Yun nga yung naging alarming na issue dun sa amin, Sara. I

00:57:58.660 --> 00:58:31.180
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: agree. I'm also, Mr. Vitez, I'm also alarmed with the language, with saying that I'm alarmed with what's happening in our country, in flood control, etc. But that's not my point. My point is, in your investigation, para maging grave threat, kailangan yung party na trinetten feels threatened. Pero ang sinabi ni VP Sara, pag pinatay ako, patayin silang tatlo. So kung wala naman silang tatlo balak na patayin siya, why would they feel threatened? Did that not come into your mind as an investigator? What

00:58:31.180 --> 00:58:46.120
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: comes into your mind, your honor, is yun nga, yung possibility na God forbids may mangyari sa BP na hindi naman alam nung tatlo, then matitrigger ngayon yung instruction, then papatayin yung tatlo na hindi naman nila alam. At the same time, may mga ibang

00:58:46.120 --> 00:58:56.700
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: grupo— Then in that case, hindi ba logical because you're the president of the Philippines, you order the PSC, To make sure that walang mangyari sa kanya rather than baliktad na tinanggalan siya ng security.

00:58:58.780 --> 00:59:11.300
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: I'm just following your logic. I won't argue. I'm satisfied, Mr. President. I'm just trying to figure out nga, no? How you came about yung gave threats given ang sinabi niya kung papatayin ako. So, finish

00:59:11.300 --> 00:59:21.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: your answer so that we can— We qualify that gave threats sa term namin as event-based condition na yun nga pag nangyari yung event, Atty.

00:59:21.750 --> 00:59:50.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: magti-trigger ngayon iyong threat ng Vice President. Now insofar as na-threaten sila, iyong sinasabi mo po, sir, na pag namatay si Vice President, saka papatayin ngayon ng tao na inutusan niya iyong tatlo. Ang isa sa alarming, na very alarming part na nakita namin, iyong mga sasakay ho na grupo

00:59:50.080 --> 01:00:00.900
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kasi, God forbid, puwedeng mawala ang Vice President, but not necessarily sila iyong dahilan.

01:00:00.900 --> 01:00:27.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Mamatay siya for one reason or the other. Then, ang impression na ng marami, ang may kasalanan nito, iyong tatlo. So, again, magkakalabo-labo na iyan. May sasakay na sa issue, thinking na pag pinatay nila iyong tatlo, ang sisisihin ngayon iyong kampo ni Vice President kasi may utterances na ginawa ang Vice President to that effect. So, iyon ho iyong sa investigation namin. Now, insofar as

01:00:27.440 --> 01:00:38.880
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Pumasok ho yung elements ng grave threats. Yeah, we believe na pumasok yung elements ng grave threats kasi na-satisfy ho lahat nung elements ng grave threats based on the

01:00:38.880 --> 01:00:40.570
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: revised manual. I'm

01:00:40.570 --> 01:01:22.100
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: assessing your answer but malayo na malapit yung sagot mo dun sa triggering events ha. Kasi parang logical diba? Dahil sinabi niya yun baka may gumawa. Hindi nga eh mag-trigger, papatay sa kanya. So para ma-trigger na patayin ang Pangulo, you're saying that VP Sara is asking other people to kill her so that they can kill Marcos. Sana sinabi na lang niya patayin niya si Marcos. Sabi mo i-trigger but anyway, I'm trying to process but hindi logical yung sinabi mo that event will trigger. Because the event that will trigger the assassination on the tree is the killing of the Vice President. And the Vice President will not tell people, kill me so that you kill them.

01:01:22.950 --> 01:02:03.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Precisely, Your Honor. Ang death kasi, for instance, mamatay ang Vice President, it does not necessarily follow na iyong tatlo iyong lang papatay, base doon sa appearances. Puwede kasing mamatay ang Vice President for one reason or the other. And again, since walang makakaalam kung sino ang pumatay diyan, ang impression ng mga tao ngayon, mati-trigger ngayon iyong instruction. Pag na-trigger iyong instruction, puwede na ngayong sumakay iyong iba-ibang grupo, thinking na kahit mabulilyaso, ang sisisihin dito ang Vice President, kasi nga may utterances na ginawa ang Vice President in public. From the point of view of law enforcement, ang gulo noon, Your Honor. It's a matter of national security.

01:02:03.070 --> 01:02:07.310
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: It's a matter of national security, Your Honor.

01:02:07.450 --> 01:02:10.110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Council, for the respondent, may proceed with his cross.

01:02:12.580 --> 01:02:21.320
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So just to, before I leave this point, at any rate, you made all those observations and conclusions without any background on forensic.

01:02:22.190 --> 01:02:26.050
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: What do you mean? Psychology, correct? I don't have background for forensic psychology.

01:02:26.350 --> 01:02:27.210
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, that's enough.

01:02:28.860 --> 01:02:37.860
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, I'll go on to a different point. Let's talk about the context of these statements. The press con included a question and answer portion.

01:02:39.500 --> 01:02:43.860
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Again, sir? The press con included a question and answer portion.

01:02:44.260 --> 01:02:44.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, I

01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:55.950
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: think so. And the VP Sara's statement, which you investigated, was an answer. To a question that was asked during the presscon.

01:02:57.600 --> 01:02:58.220
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:03:00.130 --> 01:03:06.930
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And in fact, the focus of your investigation was VP Sara's answer. Correct?

01:03:07.190 --> 01:03:08.430
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: What kind of answer, sir?

01:03:08.610 --> 01:03:10.670
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Answer to the question asked in the presscon.

01:03:10.830 --> 01:03:13.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Can you tell me the specific questions and the specific answers?

01:03:13.530 --> 01:03:16.230
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You were the one who investigated it and you don't know the statement that

01:03:16.230 --> 01:03:16.950
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you investigated?

01:03:16.950 --> 01:03:19.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Marami hong questions doon, maraming answers.

01:03:19.450 --> 01:03:20.610
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Exactly. Objection, vague.

01:03:21.270 --> 01:03:23.190
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sustained. Kindly reform, counsel.

01:03:23.510 --> 01:03:23.810
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright.

01:03:25.750 --> 01:04:31.050
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In our exhibit D-1-145A, I will read the transcription. This is the transcription also by John Mark Kalilong, dated December 26, 2024. A certain Princess Maui asked, Mag -iingat po kayo kasi sa dinami-rami ng pasabog ninyo ngayong gabi, It seems like marami po talaga kayong alam about them dahil sa pagkakasama ninyo sa kanila during the campaign and during the 2022 elections. Baka po mamaya kasi totoo yung mga naririnig namin, I don't know if it's true, na meron daw silang Operation Romanov. And baka bala kayong ubusin ang inyong pamilya dahil hadlang kayo sa kanilang mga bala in the future. So mag-iingat po kayo. My question to you is this. Will you agree that based on this question by one Princess Maui, there was also a threat against VP Sara and her family, namely Operation Romanov?

01:04:32.600 --> 01:05:04.880
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, sabi ko nga, narinig ko iyong term na Romanov noong binigkas iyon ni Mayor Baste during the Maisug rally. Other than that, wala kaming validated information about Operation Romanov. But you watched this video, correct? So you heard it also during that time? Iyan ho iyong sabi ni Princess Maui, sir. Nag-invite kami kay Princess Maui. Tinanong ko iyong agent on case kung nag-invite ba tayo kay Princess Maui; ang sabi ng agent on case, hindi raw siya nag-appear. All right, kasi we want to clarify things.

01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:09.260
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of counsel for respondent, what is the pleasure of Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo?

01:05:14.180 --> 01:05:25.830
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mr. Presiding Officer, kahapon kasi nabanggit ko yung Romanov and I did mention na para sa akin nagmula yung salitang Romanov. Atty. Mayor

01:05:25.830 --> 01:05:28.050
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Mayor Baste Duterte, when

01:05:28.050 --> 01:05:42.710
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: during a rally sa Maisug in Davao. So ang tanong ko ngayon kay Mr. Witness: natatandaan pa ba kung ano iyong sinabi ni Mayor Baste Duterte patungkol doon sa Romanovs that night?

01:05:43.510 --> 01:05:54.680
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Sir. I will try if I remember it right. Ang sabi niya, Mr. President, sabi niya, remember what happened to the Romanovs.

01:05:56.210 --> 01:06:02.400
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: If I'm not mistaken, sir, parang ang sinasabi niya kasi mayroong... No, I

01:06:02.400 --> 01:06:04.820
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: think when you go to bed tonight, continue.

01:06:05.140 --> 01:06:06.580
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Sabi po yan.

01:06:06.700 --> 01:06:06.980
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay.

01:06:07.240 --> 01:06:12.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: When you go to bed tonight, think about the Romanovs. Yun po yata yung pagkasabi.

01:06:14.660 --> 01:06:20.320
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Parang sinasabi niya na baka mangyari sa pamilya niyo yun gaya ng nangyari sa inyo noong 1996.

01:06:22.060 --> 01:06:28.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kung tama yung memory ko, sir. Parang ganun po ang sinasabi ni Mayor Bastet.

01:06:28.910 --> 01:06:56.420
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Kaya nga, Mr. President Officer, nagtataka ako na binanggit yan ni Princess Maui doon sa press conference, sa online press conference ni VP Sara, yung Romano na banta for Sara Duterte when in fact, it was Bastet Duterte ang ibitaw ng salita na iyon. Warning sa First Family. So, which is which, Mr. Witness? Para sa'yo, saan ba

01:06:56.420 --> 01:07:02.060
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: talaga yung Romanov nag-umpisa? At sino ba talaga dapat mag-ingat doon sa banta ng Romanov?

01:07:02.300 --> 01:07:15.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, and so far as our investigation is concerned, since nag-start yan doon kay Mayor Baste, at wala ho kaming ma-validate na ibang Romanov operations na nangyari.

01:07:16.640 --> 01:07:23.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think nag-start yan sa kanila, sir. Sa kapatid ng vice-presidente.

01:07:23.620 --> 01:07:27.160
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Witness. No other questions? Mr. Presiding Officer?

01:07:28.940 --> 01:07:33.320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. Entered into the records. And counsel for the respondent may continue with his cross.

01:07:33.700 --> 01:07:42.370
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. So you mentioned that just now that Mayor Bastet said, think about the Romanovs, correct?

01:07:42.750 --> 01:07:45.930
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yan yung statement ng Mayor Bastet, sir. But

01:07:45.930 --> 01:07:51.550
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I'm asking, Operation Romanov eh. So hindi naman think about the Romanovs. My question to you is this.

01:07:53.110 --> 01:07:59.630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of counsel for the respondent, Senator Tulfo seeks recognition again. What is the pleasure of Senator Tulfo? I

01:07:59.630 --> 01:08:28.370
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: just want to make it clear, Mr. Presiding Officer, na yung threat na yun, yung Romanov na salita, it was used to warn as a threat to the first family. The word Romanov came from the mouth. Of President, I mean Mayor Bastet Duterte, na para bang binabantaan niya yung first family. You follow me, Mr. Witness? Yes, sir.

01:08:28.390 --> 01:08:28.890
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Tama po yan.

01:08:29.350 --> 01:08:29.910
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you.

01:08:31.220 --> 01:08:33.020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. Council may proceed.

01:08:33.420 --> 01:08:40.820
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, that's my question. Can the Witness be allowed to answer that question with a manifestation first before he allows?

01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:45.420
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly repeat the question because even I forgot the question,

01:08:45.460 --> 01:09:23.670
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Council. You mentioned that Mayor Bastet said that statement, think about the Romanovs, etc. Yes, sir. But he did not mention Operation Romanov. It was Princess Maui who mentioned the word Operation Romanov. And I know you don't have, I mean, I personally don't have any knowledge about what Mayor Bastet said and that is not the subject of this case. Let's just stick to the facts of this case. In the video, it was Princess Maui who said Operation Romanov. Now, will you agree with me that based on that question, there was also a threat against VP Sara and her family? That's the question.

01:09:23.990 --> 01:09:26.230
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: According to the question, sir, yes.

01:09:26.670 --> 01:09:37.250
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Now, you mentioned yesterday that you can motu proprio investigate threats against the Vice President.

01:09:37.550 --> 01:09:38.690
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Under the law, sir, yes.

01:09:38.850 --> 01:09:46.780
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: My next question is very simple. Did you conduct... A separate investigation on Operation Romano.

01:09:48.280 --> 01:10:17.380
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, since ang focus ng operations namin, sir, is cybercrime investigation, I think ang makakasagot niyan yung intelligence service namin, sir. Insofar as the cybercrime division is concerned, ang focus namin, crimes committed by, through, and with the use of information and communication technology. As to the fact whether or not may Operation Romanov, ang makakasagot po niyan either yung intelligence service o yung director namin, sir.

01:10:17.660 --> 01:10:23.780
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So insofar as you are concerned, there is no ongoing investigation on Operation Romanov?

01:10:24.520 --> 01:10:43.040
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, ang focus ng investigation namin doon sa grave threat and then inciting to sedition against the Vice President insofar as the existence of whether or not may Operation Romanov. Siguro makakasagot niyan sir yung Intelligence Service, yung Director hoon namin.

01:10:43.160 --> 01:10:58.020
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, so no. At any rate, are you aware of any, if the Vice President was the target of unauthorized intelligence or surveillance operations?

01:10:58.940 --> 01:11:00.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I'm not aware sir.

01:11:00.650 --> 01:11:09.010
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Alright, with the permission of council, chair will recognize Senator Judge Pangilinan thereafter, Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo.

01:11:09.330 --> 01:11:13.830
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Just one or two quick questions on the issue

01:11:13.830 --> 01:11:16.070
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: of Princess Maui

01:11:16.070 --> 01:11:29.250
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: and itong investigation na sinasabing inimbisigahan ba yung threat against the Vice President. Kung hypothetically dumating si Princess Maui at nagpaliwanag,

01:11:29.530 --> 01:11:36.130
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: tungkol sa Operation Romanov at sinabi niya ang detalye, kikilos ba ang cybercrime?

01:11:37.570 --> 01:11:56.950
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ano ang gagawin ninyo kung nakuha ninyo iyong ganoong klaseng information? Ang problema, sabi nga ninyo kanina, hindi nga humarap. But as in any other case, kung may humarap at pinag-usapan at sinabi ganito yung threat, What is the standard operating procedure of the NBI?

01:11:57.150 --> 01:12:05.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: We validate first the information, sir. And then pag-confirm na, then we will start case build-up, sir. Thank you. Thank

01:12:05.070 --> 01:12:10.290
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you. Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo, what is your pleasure, sir?

01:12:14.600 --> 01:12:22.230
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Just want to direct my question to the witness here.

01:12:22.610 --> 01:12:23.170
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

01:12:23.610 --> 01:12:25.190
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Yung Romano Platt,

01:12:27.030 --> 01:12:39.260
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Well, aside from what Senator Judge Tulfo said that came from Bastet, but I picked it up doon sa video na pinalabas kanina ng defense. Yes,

01:12:39.280 --> 01:12:39.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor.

01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:47.910
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Yung Romano Platt versus Sara according to Princess Maui. Did you take that information seriously or not?

01:12:48.690 --> 01:13:18.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. That's the reason why nung marinig namin, umakita namin yung question ni Princess Maui about the Romano. We conducted an open source investigation. Tinignan namin baka meron. Yun nga ang nakita namin yung January 2024 during Maiso Grali, if I'm not mistaken, yung the term, the word Romano ang nagbigkas nun si Mayor Baste, Your Honor.

01:13:18.270 --> 01:14:39.340
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Alright. So, yung statement ni Princess Maui sa video, How do you rate that info? Sa inyo po, sa NBI, sa mga intelligence agencies, yung mga informations po ninyo, may rating. Tama po ba? Correct me if I'm wrong here, Mr. Witness. For example, pag yung information po ninyo, pag yung information po na natanggap ninyo, ay may mga rating po. A1, completely reliable. A2, completely reliable information. Probably true. B1. Usually reliable source. Information confirmed. B2. Usually reliable. Information probably true but needs validation. C1. Fairly reliable source. Information confirmed. C2. Fairly reliable source. Information needs validation. D2F. Source is doubtful, unreliable or reliability cannot be assessed. So, saan yung nilagay, yung sinabi ni Princess Maui, saan dito sa classification po na ito ng source of information? Is it A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, hanggang DF? Saan po?

01:14:39.420 --> 01:14:43.600
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Kasi po ngayon, Sir, napakarami na po mga informasyon, mga fake news.

01:14:43.940 --> 01:14:48.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, Sir. Sir, we... Pwede na pong sumagot. Go ahead po. Go

01:14:48.450 --> 01:14:48.670
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Go ahead po.

01:14:48.770 --> 01:15:38.310
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Sir, yung una po namin ginawa, we tried to invite... Princess Maui to shed light doon sa sinasabi nilang Romanov. Since hindi ho nag-appear si Princess Maui, wala ho kaming base. So, klinasify muna namin ito ng non-validated information. Naghanap kami sa open source. Yun nga ang nakita namin ang unang nagbigkas niyan si Mayor Baste. So, medyo nakita namin. Teka muna. Parang baliktad yata ang sitwasyon. Kung kay Mayor Bastien nagsimula ang Romanov, bakit dito ito yung tinatanong ni Princess Maui sa Vice Presidente? So medyo it doesn't make sense, sir. Wala kaming na-validate since hindi nag-appear si Princess Maui. So we classify the information as unvalidated information. So

01:15:38.310 --> 01:15:45.640
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: what you did, nung hindi mo makonfirm yung kay Princess Maui information, Naghanap ka ng counter source.

01:15:45.920 --> 01:15:46.960
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Open source, sir.

01:15:47.120 --> 01:15:48.860
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Open source. Okay. To validate.

01:15:49.120 --> 01:15:49.800
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. And

01:15:49.800 --> 01:15:51.200
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: what happened to that source?

01:15:52.180 --> 01:16:10.490
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, based doon sa video na yon, January, if I'm not mistaken, yun nga, yung Maiso Grani, Your Honor, ang unang nagbanggit ng Romanov, si Mayor Baste, parang tinatakot niya yung presidente. Okay, Mr.

01:16:10.590 --> 01:16:21.970
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Waites, I'm running out of time. So, isa lang po ang tanong ko. So, yung information po ni Princess Maui doon sa video, yung sinabi niya kay BP, eh hindi po reliable.

01:16:23.150 --> 01:16:27.610
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi reliable insofar as the Cybercrime Division is concerned, sir. Thank you,

01:16:27.630 --> 01:16:28.850
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Mr. Presiding Officer. The

01:16:28.850 --> 01:16:34.090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: interventions of the Senator-Judge are noted. What is the pleasure of Senator-Judge Villanueva?

01:16:37.410 --> 01:17:07.750
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. President. Just a very quick question on this particular topic. I will no longer dwell on Operation Romanov, despite the fact that—thank you to Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo, who told me about the dates—and I will not even mention or tackle the conditional threat. But I was looking at this NBI letter dated 2 December 2024,

01:17:07.750 --> 01:17:19.080
Sen. Joel Villanueva: marked as Annex I. This is prosecution's P-4-5 exhibit. It invited respondent Duterte to appear in connection with the investigation of alleged grave threats.

01:17:19.080 --> 01:17:26.510
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Mr. Witness, nakasaad din po dito sa sulat na iniimbestigahan ng NBI iyong mga banta laban sa kanya,

01:17:26.510 --> 01:17:30.910
Sen. Joel Villanueva: at makakatulong po dito ang kanyang pagharap sa imbestigasyon. Tama po ba ito, Attorney?

01:17:30.880 --> 01:17:31.660
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: po, Your Honor. Tama

01:17:31.660 --> 01:17:49.990
Sen. Joel Villanueva: po yan. Dahil po hindi personal na pumunta ang ating vicepresidente, ano po yung naging epekto nito sa investigation ninyo sa mga bantalaban sa kanyang buhay? Gusto ko lang mong malaman. Ipinagpatuloy niyo po ba ang investigasyon ng NBI? What is now the status of this investigation?

01:17:50.550 --> 01:18:17.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Una, since yung second letter ng Vice President through her lawyer, may sinasabi doon na may threat sa life six months ago pa. So nung trinay naming i-check yun, Your Honor, ang nakita lang naming relevant information as to the security, yung pagbabawaso ng 75 PNP personnel from BPSPG, if I'm not mistaken. And then, I think, transfer ho yata yung mga personnel na yan sa Manila.

01:18:19.880 --> 01:18:32.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: And then, when we check the record, yun nga, meron pang, based on the COA record, meron pang 335 more or less, if I'm not mistaken, na security personnel ang vice-presidente. So, other than those...

01:18:32.520 --> 01:18:47.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: facts, wala ho kaming makitang relevant na security issue, dahil iyon nga, hindi naman nag-appear ang ating Vice President. Hindi naman sila nagbigay ng any information na puwede naming pagsimulan po.

01:18:47.280 --> 01:18:48.640
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So after

01:18:48.640 --> 01:18:54.860
Sen. Joel Villanueva: that, you did not pursue anymore the investigation on the threats against the Vice President?

01:18:55.240 --> 01:19:00.720
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang alam ko ang aming intelligence service ang may monitoring na ginagawa from time to time. I

01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:47.450
Sen. Joel Villanueva: ask this question, Mr. Witness, and for our people. Kasi hindi na po yung Operation Romanov, hindi na po itong conditional threat. Kung hindi, ito ba ay nabigyan, accorded the same level of attention dun sa mga threats na inyong nakukuha gaya ng binabanggit natin na threat. Atty. Dio Mano ng ating Vice Presidente. Kasi ang tanong, hindi rin naman po nagpunta sa inyo ang Pangulo o ang Speaker of the House. And yet, you pursued your investigation. So, in that way, paano ninyo may explain ito, Atty. Notok, na ginawa nyo talaga yung lahat ng inyong magagawa para investigahan din yung threat laban sa pangalawang Pangulo?

01:19:47.570 --> 01:21:16.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, Your Honor. Magkaiba po siya. Yung grave threats na inutter ng Vice President against the President, apparent po siya, Your Honor, nakita po namin nasa video, inauthenticate namin ang video, nag-testify yung mga may personal knowledge na in fact sinabi niya yun. So, malinaw ho na nag-exist yung utterances na yun that qualifies the crime of grave threats. Dito ho, sa threat ng Vice Presidente, Wala ho kaming ganung same na information na nakuha. Wala kaming apparent na mayroong threat against sa life ng vicepresidente kasi nga hindi sila nagbigay ng specific information, hindi ho nagpakita ang vicepresidente para Mag-shed light doon sa investigation namin. So, hindi ho namin siya makita na parehas. Magkaiba po yun. Ang sa presidente, apparent siya. So, definitely under the law, ang NBI can motor-proprio undertake an investigation. Dito sa vice-presidente, allegation siya. Wala kaming ma-validate information. So, hindi ho pa magti-trigger yung investigation doon. But, I am sure, insofar as the intelligence service of the NBI is concerned, Continuous ho yung monitoring yan at naghahanap po sila ng mga lead para ma-solidify yung information na yan.

01:21:16.780 --> 01:22:00.580
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you, Mr. Witness. I know the law. Presidente, Vice Presidente, Speaker, pwede niyong tignan at imbestigahan yan but I feel na importanteng maipakita natin sa taong bayan that same level of attention ang ibinigay po natin at we also If we need to walk the extra mile of investigating, we have to do it in the name of fairness. So, yun ang po yung nakita ko and siguro yung sinasabi niyo nga po, hindi sumapat iyong inyong nakalap ng mga impormasyon. Whether the information ay kulang or hindi kayo nagkaroon ng access sa mga information na ito, kaya po hindi nagduloy.

01:22:01.290 --> 01:22:04.170
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: That is in so far as the cybercrime division is concerned.

01:22:04.430 --> 01:22:05.870
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

01:22:06.070 --> 01:22:11.330
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is the pleasure of Senator Judge Lacson? Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. I

01:22:11.330 --> 01:22:32.100
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: just want to pursue the point raised by Senator Judge Rapitulpo and the others. The gentleman may proceed and he has two minutes. I don't know about the other senator judges, pero until today, when Senator Judge Rapitulpo clarified, Atty. Oplon Romanov, Atty. J.

01:22:32.040 --> 01:22:34.060
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: first family?

01:22:34.060 --> 01:22:34.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:22:34.500 --> 01:22:46.240
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ang impression ko since last week, noong pinag-uusapan natin iyong Oplan Romanov, threat ito against the Vice President. And since sabi ninyo, part ng investigation ninyo ang open source, di ba?

01:22:46.340 --> 01:22:48.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:22:48.000 --> 01:22:54.520
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Iyong speech ni Mayor Baste Duterte sa Maisug, naging part ba ng open source ninyo iyon?

01:22:55.010 --> 01:22:55.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In this

01:22:55.670 --> 01:22:57.430
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: particular investigation that you conducted,

01:22:57.770 --> 01:23:00.190
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: hindi po siya nag-form part as… So kulang

01:23:00.190 --> 01:23:02.650
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: yung inyong open source information.

01:23:03.250 --> 01:23:07.410
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi po kami naka-focus sa Romanov, Your Honor.

01:23:07.410 --> 01:23:15.690
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Was it also your impression na iyong threat doon sa Romanov was directed against VP Sara, until today?

01:23:17.210 --> 01:23:18.290
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I don't…

01:23:18.290 --> 01:23:22.270
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Please. Be honest. Don't be ashamed.

01:23:22.770 --> 01:23:48.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I don't think so, Your Honor. Kasi unang-una, ang context ng Operation Romanov: against the First Family. So definitely against the President and his family, Your Honor. Ngayon, noong tinanong siya ni Princess Maui, doon nga kami nagtaka. Anong ibig sabihin ng Romanov? Anong context niya ng Romanov? Bakit against the Vice President? Hindi naman siya iyong First Family. So iyan iyong reason po, Your Honor, kung bakit we tried

01:23:48.610 --> 01:24:01.990
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: po, Your Honor, kung bakit we tried to invite Princess Maui to shed us some light para makita namin ano bang ibig sabihin doon. Ano ba iyong puwede naming i-validate na information para makapag-case build-up kami pag mayroon?

01:24:02.230 --> 01:24:15.500
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: So bakit hindi naging part ng investigation ninyo doon sa threat against the life of the President and the First Lady? Kasi family iyong binabanggit ni Mayor Baste, di ba? Hindi kasama iyong Speaker?

01:24:15.500 --> 01:24:17.360
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Hindi kasama si Speaker Romualdez, hindi iyong Chief Justice?

01:24:17.360 --> 01:24:18.200
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo. Yes, sir.

01:24:18.200 --> 01:24:21.520
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Pero threat against the family, the First Family?

01:24:21.520 --> 01:24:22.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:24:22.100 --> 01:24:24.020
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: As mentioned by Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo.

01:24:24.100 --> 01:24:27.400
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Ang sabi mo, hindi naging part ng investigation ninyo sa report or affidavit of investigation iyong open source ng Maisug?

01:24:27.560 --> 01:24:28.300
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi po siya nakasama.

01:24:28.300 --> 01:24:44.250
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Bakit hindi naisama? Open source din iyon. That could reinforce iyong conclusion ninyo na meron talagang serious threat against the President and the others.

01:24:44.250 --> 01:25:08.940
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Romualdez, Bakit hindi ninyo ginawang part doon sa affidavit of investigation, unless pareho tayo ng impression na until today, ang alam natin sa Romanov ay threat against VP Sara? Iyon ang impression ko since last week.

01:25:08.940 --> 01:25:11.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: That's exactly my

01:25:11.620 --> 01:25:21.410
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: question, Atty. Lotoc. So ngayon nyo rin lang na-realize na yun palang Oplan Romanov, etret pala sa first family. First family.

01:25:21.590 --> 01:25:22.190
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, Your Honor.

01:25:22.390 --> 01:25:25.630
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Thank you. Noted. Entered into the records.

01:25:27.110 --> 01:25:32.830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I would have recognized Sen. Goff first but since you're there already, Sen. Judge Alan Gaetano. This is

01:25:32.830 --> 01:25:33.090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: just a

01:25:33.090 --> 01:26:41.570
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: manifestation and point of information. As Sen. Judge Lacson said, it's for each judge to appreciate. But let me put context. I'm not close to VP Sara. I'm not close to Mayor Baste. Ang kasama ko sa Congress si former Deputy Speaker Pulong. But in the last four years, I think I've seen him twice or thrice. Yes, Your Honor. Okay. But my reading nung sinabi ni Mayor Baste is pag natulog ka sa gabi, remember the Romanovs. So, we have to look at our history. The Romanovs were evicted via a revolution. Diba? So, Mayor Bastet was doing a parallel ng 1986 na paalis yung mga Marcoses via a revolution. But unlike the Romanovs, the Marcoses were given asylum or whatever you call it in Hawaii. And over time, nakabalik until the president became president. Ang Romanovs, inubos sila para nga hindi maka—

01:26:43.090 --> 01:27:06.270
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Balik. Now, if Mayor Baste was making Romanovs uubusin kayong Marcos, di dapat na-offend si Sen. Judge Aimee Marcos because she's a Marcos. So, secondly, if he made that threat, so if he was saying, may oplan mo Romanov or maroromanov kayo, I'm sure the PNP or PS—

01:27:08.580 --> 01:28:46.650
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: The Presidential Security Command, the National Council would have filed a case against Baste. So I just want, it's fair that you mentioned him, it's fair sa investigation mo. But I don't think we should draw a conclusion here that Mayor Baste was threatening the first family. Because remember, there's a thin line between a warning and a threat. So pag sinabi ko sa'yo ngayon, witness, pareho tayong abogado, kumpanyero, pareho tayong taga-Ateneo, mag-ingat ka sa sasabihin mo. That could be a fair warning. That could be not a threat. Di ba? But kapag ka may threat talaga na pinarating ko sa'yo, pag hindi ko gusto, ano mo, kakasuwang kita, that could be a illegal threat. Di ba? Pero pwedeng warning. So I just want that on the record, Mr. President Officer, Mr. Senate President. Because everyone's watching, and in the same manner we have to be fair to the first family, we have to be fair also to Mayor Baste and to the Dutertes, rather than draw a conclusion that there was an actual. So the Council for Defense was making a distinction. Mentioning Romanov and Oplan Romanov are two different things. It may be the same, it may be a different thing. For all we know, Narinig ni Mayor Baste na sila iro-Romanov. Kaya binanggit niya pabalik. We don't know. I don't know. I haven't discussed it with anyone. I haven't discussed it with the few senators na kaibigan ko dito. So let's just be circumspect and careful from making conclusions. But as far as it is relevant, Mr. Presiding Officer, I appreciate the answer of the witness. Thank you. Thank

01:28:46.650 --> 01:28:47.130
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: you, Your Honor.

01:28:47.230 --> 01:28:49.310
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Go, thereafter, Senator Padilla.

01:28:52.940 --> 01:28:54.460
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Go, you have two minutes, sir.

01:28:54.580 --> 01:28:56.120
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

01:28:57.760 --> 01:29:05.880
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Balik muna tayo dito sa ating bayan. Masyado lang malayo inaabot natin. To our Mr. Witness, some questions lang po, no?

01:29:06.000 --> 01:29:06.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes po, Your Honor.

01:29:08.060 --> 01:29:11.460
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Nabanggit niyo kahapon na 20 years na po kayo sa NBI.

01:29:11.740 --> 01:29:13.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 12 years, Your

01:29:13.280 --> 01:29:15.740
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Honor. Be specific, anong year po?

01:29:16.240 --> 01:29:20.040
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2014, Your Honor. Nagsimula po ako from the NBI Academy.

01:29:20.200 --> 01:29:20.560
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: 2014?

01:29:21.080 --> 01:29:26.580
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2014. 12 years na po, Your Honor. Ah, hindi 20 years. Hindi 20 years, Your Honor. 12, Your Honor.

01:29:27.160 --> 01:29:34.590
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: 12 years. So, kailan ho kayo nag-head ng cybercrime?

01:29:35.790 --> 01:29:38.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: February 2023, your honor.

01:29:39.970 --> 01:29:47.070
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: February of 2023. Maupay na adlaw pala. Maupay pong adlaw yapon,

01:29:47.250 --> 01:29:47.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: sir.

01:29:47.990 --> 01:29:56.400
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: And to our prosecutor. May hapon, sir. May hapon. Maupay na kulop. Maupay man.

01:29:58.110 --> 01:30:00.970
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Kailan ho kayo naging RD?

01:30:02.950 --> 01:30:04.950
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: July 2025, Sir.

01:30:05.330 --> 01:30:13.990
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: July 2025. So, naging cybercrime head kayo February of 2023, Sir? Before that, sa ano kayo na-assign?

01:30:14.810 --> 01:30:20.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Chief ng Digital Forensics, Sir. 2022. 2020. Anyway.

01:30:21.120 --> 01:30:27.820
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: So, meron na bang nag-recommend sa inyo or wala na? Nag-apply lang kayo? O sino nag-recommend?

01:30:28.380 --> 01:30:29.240
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Nang ano po, Sir?

01:30:29.520 --> 01:30:32.640
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Naging head kayo ng cybercrime?

01:30:33.960 --> 01:30:51.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: As chief of the digital forensics, I was designated by the then director, Medardo J. DeLemos. Then as chief of the cybercrime division, I was also designated by the then director, Medardo J. DeLemos.

01:30:51.260 --> 01:30:54.020
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: 2016 to 2022 sa ano kinasign?

01:30:55.880 --> 01:31:07.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2016, I think, anti-organized crime and transnational crime. Up to 2020. AOTCD, your honor. Then, 2018, nasa cybercrime division na po. So,

01:31:07.640 --> 01:31:08.700
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: hindi po kayo head doon?

01:31:08.960 --> 01:31:12.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi pa. As an investigation agent po noong 2018, sir.

01:31:12.340 --> 01:31:23.640
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Anyway, nabanggit niyo po kanina about sworn affidavit. And then, nabanggit niyo about journalists, no? Na part noong press conference. Tama ko ba?

01:31:24.090 --> 01:31:24.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:31:24.700 --> 01:31:52.690
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Marami sila, di ba? Maraming nabanggit sa mga nakaraang araw, including last week, di ba? Bakit po hindi kinuha ang sariling sworn affidavit ng mga journalist na personal na naroon po sa press conference, sa halip na affidavits ng agents na naglalaman ng inyong summary ng mga sinabi po ninyo? Bakit hindi ninyo pinursige iyong mga affidavit ng mga nandoon sa—

01:31:53.320 --> 01:32:19.260
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Nung nag-appear po yung mga media personalities na nag-participate nung online press conference of the November 23, 2024, may kasama po silang lawyer and then we want them to execute an affidavit. Ang advice sa kanila ng lawyer, hindi na raw. Pwede lang silang mag-participate ng interview. Pwede silang mag-sign sabihin sa meeting. So hindi na po namin pinilit. So

01:32:19.260 --> 01:32:35.060
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: wala hong... Journalists or mga vloggers na kasama po doon sa sworn affidavit. Wala ako. Sa inyo lang. Purely puro po ito magaling sa NBI lang po.

01:32:35.260 --> 01:32:39.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Kasi ayaw po ng lawyer nila na mag-execute sila ng

01:32:39.700 --> 01:32:42.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: affidavit. Pero may kasama po silang lawyer doon, Sir.

01:32:42.800 --> 01:32:55.880
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Yung mga detalye pong nakasaad sa inyong affidavit tungkol sa naganap na press conference, galing ho ba ito sa personal knowledge ng mga agents o batay po sa sinabi ng mga journalist na nakausap po ng agents pagkatapos?

01:32:56.060 --> 01:33:09.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Q&A yung mode nung interview at nag-reflect ho yan doon sa minutes of meeting and then nag-execute ng affidavit yung Atty. J. Nag

01:33:09.750 --> 01:33:12.590
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: -interview na agent. Atty. So magkasama ho yung mga dokumento na

01:33:12.590 --> 01:33:12.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: yun, sir.

01:33:13.670 --> 01:33:25.100
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Makoconsider mo ba ito na second-hand account? Paano niyo masigurong naging actual ho yung pag-interpret ninyo sa mga sinabi?

01:33:26.040 --> 01:33:28.680
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ano pong interpret, sir? I

01:33:28.680 --> 01:33:41.450
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: mean, kung batay po ito sa second-hand account, paano niyo masisiguro na... Sacto, walang naidagdag, or hindi na misinterpret sa pagitan na aktual na sinabi ng mga journalist at mga nakasulat sa inyong affidavit?

01:33:41.630 --> 01:33:59.890
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. That's the reason why inauthenticate namin yung video mula simula hanggang sa matapos para o hindi kami mawala sa tunay na nangyari. That's the reason why tinanscribe din ng ating agent on case kung ano laman ng video. Atty.

01:33:59.890 --> 01:34:18.410
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: ano yung naging tanungan doon para o hindi kami mawala sa investigasyon namin. And in fact, Your Honor, when we tried to establish whether or not nag-atter ba talaga ang Vice Presidente na may kinausap na siyang tao para pumatay sa tatlo, na confirmed

01:34:18.410 --> 01:34:46.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Confirmed namin ito noong November 26 video. Kasi ni-reiterate ng Vice President, in-admit niya, instead na sinabi niyang hindi ko sinabi iyon, sinabi niya noong November 26 na video na indeed may kinausap na siyang tao para pumatay doon sa tatlo. So, nabuo iyong aming investigation na ang tawag po namin doon is admission against interest.

01:34:47.640 --> 01:34:55.320
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Doon po sa ginawa ni Vice President during the November 26, 2024. Anyway,

01:34:55.320 --> 01:35:07.530
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: last question na lang po. On sedition, how do you reconcile the fact that the Vice President discouraged her supporters from going to the streets with a claim of inciting to sedition?

01:35:08.350 --> 01:35:12.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ano po yung... On sedition charges, di ba? Yes, sir.

01:35:12.540 --> 01:35:21.500
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: How do you reconcile the fact that the Vice President discouraged her supporters from going to the streets with a claim of inciting to sedition?

01:35:21.740 --> 01:35:40.340
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, in inciting to sedition, Your Honor, specifically in the case of People v. Nabong, it is not necessary na magkaroon ng actual sedisyon. The law also penalizes if the seditious words would encourage people Atty. G.

01:35:40.140 --> 01:35:57.940
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: illegal acts or to overthrow government. In other words, if the speeches would stir up the people to go against the government, if the speeches would disturb the peace of the community, if the speeches would undermine order and public security, hindi ho necessary na magkaroon ng actual na sedition.

01:35:57.940 --> 01:36:06.090
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: Meron ho bang nagawa iyong Vice President na gaya ng sinasabi ninyo ngayon?

01:36:07.570 --> 01:36:09.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Nagawa po.

01:36:09.140 --> 01:36:10.680
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ah, inciting to sedition, Sir? Mag-go,

01:36:10.700 --> 01:38:25.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: ha? Mag... Based sa findings namin, Sir, yes. Based po sa findings namin. Um, ganito po ang nangyari. Um, kinumpare po namin based on the content and context of the utterances made by the Vice President in November 23, 2024, the utterances made by the Vice President in October 18, 2024, then the utterances made by the Vice President in 26... November 2024. And under facts and circumstances, nung trinay po namin i-compare siya, may nakikita ho kami ng mga utterances that would stir up the people against the government. For example, Your Honor, nung October 18, ang sabi ng Vice Presidente, walang number one ang Pilipinas na to hanggang number two lang to para sa akin. Wala itong number one. Kinumpara ho namin nung November 23, ang sabi doon sa November 23, I do not recognize anybody above me. It's a reiteration dun sa kanyang sinabi. That's number one, Your Honor. Then number two, may sinabi siya nung October 18 na anong magagawa ko? Hindi marunong maging presidente yung nakaupo. Kasalanan ko ba yun? And then, November 23, kinumpara namin yun. Ang sabi niya dun, this country will go to hell because The person na nakaupo is hindi marunong maging presidente and who is a liar. So nakita namin yung pattern saka consistent na utterances. Then tinina namin yung pangatlong line. Ang sabi niya doon, alam ko si BBM may limang impeachable offense pero papasa ba dyan sa house? Siyempre hindi. Then pagdating sa November 23, sinabi naman niya doon na the president is lying through his teeth para makuha lang niya yung bota ng mga tao. Tapos minura niya sila PICA, BBM, Lisa Marcos, and former Speaker of the House. So tinignan namin sino ba yung nagsasalita? Kung ang nagsasalita, Your Honor, is yung ikalawa sa pinakamataas na posisyon in public at yun yung kanyang utterances, definitely, Your Honor, there is a tendency to stir up the people against lawful government. Kindly wind up, Sen. Go.

01:38:26.000 --> 01:38:29.100
Sen. Christopher Bong Go: No more question, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank

01:38:29.100 --> 01:38:42.580
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: you, Senator Judge Go. Senator Judge Padilla intimated to the Presiding Officer that he will defer his questions to a later time. Counsel, for the respondent, you may proceed with your cross-examination.

01:38:43.460 --> 01:38:50.840
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just a manifestation, Your Honor, in relation to the query or the manifestation of Senator Judge Villanueva.

01:38:51.550 --> 01:38:54.070
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In relation to the query of... No,

01:38:54.090 --> 01:38:56.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: no. His manifestation, Your Honor.

01:38:57.190 --> 01:39:00.470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No need, Counsel. Proceed. Unless he asked you a question. It's the

01:39:00.470 --> 01:39:04.150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: seventh court's time. Please proceed with your cross-examination.

01:39:04.370 --> 01:39:10.290
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. I'll just transform it into a question. You were asked about that December 2, 2024 letter, correct?

01:39:10.730 --> 01:39:12.050
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: December 2, yes, sir.

01:39:12.510 --> 01:39:17.010
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That is the letter where you gave a schedule for the Vice President to attend, correct?

01:39:18.730 --> 01:39:21.290
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, signed by our assistant director. But

01:39:21.290 --> 01:39:28.070
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the schedule that you gave was November 11, 2024 at 10 a.m. and then you gave the address. So

01:39:28.070 --> 01:39:40.190
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: in other words, My question naman is this eh, if tama yung schedule sana at nakapunta si VP Sara, would it have affected your investigation?

01:39:40.630 --> 01:40:00.410
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, even up till now, ready ho kaming tanggapin kung anumang information ng Vice Presidente, continuous po yun. In fact, sabi ko nga kanina, yung intelligence service namin is May ginagawang monitoring from time to time doon sa threat to life against the Vice President,

01:40:00.410 --> 01:40:16.190
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: President, President, etc. Okay, I'll move on to a new point. Now, let me show you a portion of the interview of Demsi Reyes of the Philippine Daily Inquirer. Please direct your attention to paragraph 13 of the minutes of the meeting. This is also...

01:40:16.190 --> 01:40:22.950
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: The transcription made by Agent Kalilong. Page 173 of Annex G. 9 as well.

01:40:27.120 --> 01:40:28.580
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: So, here,

01:40:28.820 --> 01:40:59.430
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: it says may presscon kasi earlier than that sabi niya na parang sabi niya lang gusto daw siyang patayin daw according to her and his speaker. That was during a press conference the day before November 2022. So, Considering that this is part of the minutes of the meetings, this is also part of the NBI's own records, correct? Yes, sir. Alright. Now, my question is this. Did you issue a subpoena against Speaker Martin Romualdez, former Speaker Martin Romualdez?

01:41:00.010 --> 01:41:01.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Did you issue a subpoena?

01:41:03.720 --> 01:41:12.940
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kasi kay Speaker Romualdez, sir? Yes. Kasi ba't ako mag-issue ng subpoena? Wala pa kaming sufficient na... So

01:41:12.940 --> 01:41:24.210
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: what's the... you did that issue? Hindi kami nag-issue, sir. So, in other words, for VP Sara, you issued not just one, but two subpoenas. But for the former speaker, you did not issue a subpoena. That's just the question.

01:41:24.470 --> 01:41:28.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: There is an apparent commission of the crime for grave threats and inciting to sedition, sir.

01:41:28.830 --> 01:41:38.450
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I see. So, for this particular portion, you just turned a blind eye and did not... There is no validated information on that. Let the

01:41:38.450 --> 01:41:38.870
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: witness answer.

01:41:39.070 --> 01:41:43.290
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: There was a question. Counsel, kindly don't argue with the witness.

01:41:43.610 --> 01:42:00.920
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But based on your testimony yesterday, you said that you have a system of evaluating factors, correct? My question to you is, based on that system, does Martin Romualdez have the capacity to execute a death threat, for example?

01:42:01.530 --> 01:42:10.650
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: We haven't established any apparent crime committed by the former speaker, Your Honor. So hindi kami nag-dealt dyan sa issue na yan.

01:42:10.890 --> 01:42:21.810
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any rate, these minutes of the meeting which you all confirmed that is part of the NBI's own record, isn't this information regarding the death threat against VP Sara?

01:42:22.150 --> 01:42:55.540
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, ang sabi po dyan, if I may read, may presscon kasi earlier than that sabi niya parang sabi lang niya Gusto daw, siyang patayin daw, according to her, ni Speaker, that was during a press conference the day before. Precisely, Your Honor, the reason why we issued a letter noong November 22 is to ask the Vice President kung ano ho yung facts and circumstances dyan sa issue na yan. But since hindi ho nag-appear ang Vice Presidente, wala ho talaga kaming mapagsimulan. Wala kaming validated information.

01:42:56.100 --> 01:43:07.810
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But you issued the subpoena against Dempsey Reyes, correct? Yes, sir. Pero ang tinanong niyo kay Dempsey Reyes yung case lang against VP Sara. Hindi niya siya tinanong ng threats to her, correct?

01:43:08.170 --> 01:43:20.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, unang-una, ang ini-establish namin, ang focus ng investigation namin, the reason why we subpoenaed the late Demsi Reyes, is whether or not ba yung Vice President doon sa statement niya

01:43:20.700 --> 01:43:27.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: niya na nag-contract na siya ng tao para patayin si BBM, si Liza Marcos, at si former Speaker. Sir, iyon po iyong focus

01:43:27.500 --> 01:43:53.770
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Marcos, The offended parties in this case, if at all, are BBM, FL, and the former speaker, correct?

01:43:54.270 --> 01:43:54.810
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:43:55.010 --> 01:43:56.430
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Did you subpoena any of them?

01:43:56.910 --> 01:43:57.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir.

01:43:57.870 --> 01:43:59.730
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Did they appear before the NBI?

01:44:00.130 --> 01:44:00.770
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir.

01:44:01.550 --> 01:44:10.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Nakausap niyo ba sila ng personal? No, sir. And yet, you concluded that they were victims of grave threats, correct? Based

01:44:10.090 --> 01:44:11.650
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: on the evidence we've gathered, yes, sir.

01:44:11.850 --> 01:44:18.020
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So without any personal correspondences with them, you— Atty. The

01:44:18.020 --> 01:44:20.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: evidence is clear. According

01:44:21.450 --> 01:44:22.930
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: to you.

01:44:22.750 --> 01:44:26.710
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, I move that—

01:44:26.710 --> 01:44:53.080
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, I move that defense counsel, with all due respect, be admonished from stating those unprofessional remarks. We are in front of national TV. If you are not satisfied with his answer, please don't put any value to what the witness answered.

01:44:53.080 --> 01:45:04.160
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is a reminder for counsel for both parties. Kindly avoid side remarks. Henceforth, the Presiding Officer will have it stricken off the record. And

01:45:04.160 --> 01:45:22.320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: whatever question you pose and afterwards withdraw, will likewise be stricken off from the record. So as to avoid any attempts at showmanship, usually seen on TV, But that will not be tolerated by this Impeachment Court. Counsel are

01:45:22.320 --> 01:45:23.340
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: so reminded...

01:45:23.340 --> 01:45:24.140
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will comply, Your Honor.

01:45:24.280 --> 01:45:25.740
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please proceed... To clarify,

01:45:25.960 --> 01:45:34.040
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Mr. Witness, yung NBI subpoena against VP Sara that you issued was her being a respondent, correct?

01:45:34.740 --> 01:45:35.340
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:45:35.560 --> 01:45:38.460
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Pero as a complainant, you did not issue...

01:45:38.460 --> 01:45:40.880
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: We issued a letter, sir, December 2. No, no, no.

01:45:40.880 --> 01:45:47.260
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: As the complainant na siya yung... Subject naman ng threats, walang subpoena as to that effect.

01:45:47.900 --> 01:45:49.220
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Walang subpoena, Sir. So

01:45:49.220 --> 01:45:54.140
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: in other words, hindi talaga siya naka-explain kasi what you sent out was a letter and not a subpoena.

01:45:55.210 --> 01:46:06.790
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung letter is to inform the Vice President. Na iniimbestigahan din namin yung threat against the life niya. So, therefore, kailangan namin yung presence niya or any information na pwedeng makatulong sa investigation.

01:46:07.050 --> 01:46:16.410
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yun na nga. Pero hindi niya siya sinenda ng subpoena. Isn't it that in a regular case, the prosecutor sends out the subpoena both to the complainant and to the respondent?

01:46:16.510 --> 01:46:17.870
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: The prosecutor, sir?

01:46:17.950 --> 01:46:26.430
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes. You're a lawyer. You know this. When you file a case before the prosecutor's office, the handling prosecutor issues out the subpoena sa parehong parties naman.

01:46:26.510 --> 01:46:33.170
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang alam ko, during the case concert, I think nag-appear yata ang vice-presidente sa DOJ. Doon ako na-inform sir.

01:46:33.170 --> 01:46:52.810
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, I'll move on to a new point. Let's talk about the reversal by the DOJ. Di ba? There was an initial finding on February 5 and then it was eventually reversed. Now... Would you agree with me that the rectifications that you made for the first affidavit of investigation were procedural deficiencies?

01:46:53.920 --> 01:46:59.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Procedural deficiencies? No, it's part of the case build-up, Your Honor.

01:46:59.380 --> 01:47:07.600
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But what you added were TSNs, affidavits of your own agents, correct? Those were affidavits.

01:47:07.760 --> 01:47:11.580
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, but don't you consider those as procedural and not substantive?

01:47:12.230 --> 01:47:15.410
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Part of the evaluation and case build-up, yes sir.

01:47:15.690 --> 01:47:20.170
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. But in effect, the substance of the case remained the same.

01:47:21.140 --> 01:47:25.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Walang nabago ho sa affidavit, sa una at sa pangalawa, parehas po yan. Very good. So

01:47:25.760 --> 01:47:30.260
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: in other words, wala kang no additional discussion on the merits of the case?

01:47:31.520 --> 01:47:34.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: On the merits of the case, yung findings namin, hindi ho nabago yan, sir.

01:47:35.020 --> 01:47:38.680
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Very good. So no additional witnesses were interviewed?

01:47:41.340 --> 01:47:42.680
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: What do you mean interviews?

01:47:42.920 --> 01:47:50.860
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Wala nang additional interviews. Kung ano yun sa first affidavit niyo, yun na rin yun sa second affidavit. Wala nang additional interviewees?

01:47:51.920 --> 01:48:11.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kung I think ang naaalala ko, anim ho na media personalities ang na-interview namin at yun ho yung nag-reflect sa affidavit at the same time we tried to issue subpoena sa I think head ng ABS-CBN. I understand that, but be more responsive.

01:48:11.830 --> 01:48:15.400
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, if I may, the witness is still in the process of answering his question.

01:48:15.400 --> 01:48:20.790
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, but the answer is not responsive. My question is very simple.

01:48:20.810 --> 01:48:22.370
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Let him finish first with all the respect, Your Honor.

01:48:23.590 --> 01:48:40.230
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the permission of the counsel for the parties. Atty. Lotoc, the question was, sa pagitan ng una at pangalawang sinubmit ninyo sa DOJ, may mga testigo ba kayong dinagdag sa pangalawang ninyong submission sa DOJ? Or the witnesses are the same.

01:48:40.350 --> 01:48:44.730
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Nilakip lang iyong mga affidavit na hindi nailakip doon sa unang pagsumite?

01:48:45.070 --> 01:48:47.950
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: As far as I'm concerned, Your Honor, they are the same.

01:48:48.850 --> 01:48:55.490
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But we will never know that for sure because you never released your first affidavit of investigation, correct?

01:48:57.480 --> 01:49:04.320
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, I think it's in the DOJ. Ang binigay sa amin yung certification kung ano yung mga requirements na dapat namin i-comply.

01:49:04.500 --> 01:49:17.180
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, but what you attach, when you received the subpoena from the House Committee on Justice, which was used as the basis for the articles of impeachment, the first affidavit of investigation was never included.

01:49:17.440 --> 01:49:22.860
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung nag-submit ho dyan, Your Honor, sila, Agent Kalilong, wala akong idea.

01:49:22.960 --> 01:49:23.620
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Hindi ninyo alam. All right,

01:49:23.740 --> 01:49:38.500
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: that's okay. So, I have a question about... The Affidavit of Investigation. Okay? An affidavit, or I'll just be more specific, your second affidavit of investigation was subscribed and sworn to, correct?

01:49:39.120 --> 01:49:39.820
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

01:49:39.980 --> 01:49:43.900
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: On February 10, 2025. Yes, sir. Alright. Before who?

01:49:45.450 --> 01:49:46.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Can I

01:49:46.090 --> 01:49:46.730
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: check, sir?

01:49:46.890 --> 01:49:47.150
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sure.

01:49:47.330 --> 01:49:50.470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may consult the document before him. Thank you, Your Honor.

01:49:53.260 --> 01:49:55.340
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel for the parties may assist him.

01:49:58.700 --> 01:49:59.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor,

01:49:59.400 --> 01:50:00.900
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: we'll just confront him with our

01:50:00.900 --> 01:50:06.920
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: own— Subscribe on SORN 2 before Assistant Director Glenn A. Ricarte, sir.

01:50:07.420 --> 01:50:12.860
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, so do you remember that you subscribed along with the other agents before General Ricarte now?

01:50:13.490 --> 01:50:15.470
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. May signature kami rito.

01:50:15.630 --> 01:50:15.850
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright.

01:50:17.720 --> 01:50:24.500
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And you did this because the first affidavit of investigation cannot be altered anymore.

01:50:25.740 --> 01:50:26.780
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: What do you mean, sir?

01:50:27.260 --> 01:50:45.220
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: An affidavit, as you know, you are a lawyer. Once an affidavit is subscribed and sworn to, it is a complete document already. Meaning, even if you take out one page or you add an annex, you already alter the meaning of that document. Will you agree with me?

01:50:47.710 --> 01:51:00.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, the process is legal evaluation by the prosecutor and case build-up. So, pag nakita ko ng prosecution... Your Honor, I'm just talking

01:51:00.600 --> 01:51:03.080
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: about the nature of the affidavit. I'm not talking about...

01:51:03.080 --> 01:51:09.600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer the question. It's a general question pertaining to an affidavit in general, not this particular one.

01:51:10.100 --> 01:51:12.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ano yung question, Sir? Okay, an

01:51:12.060 --> 01:51:33.830
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: affidavit, once you subscribe and swear to it, that already becomes a, if I may use the term, untouchable affidavit in such that... You cannot take out one page, you cannot alter one paragraph, you cannot add annex. Well,

01:51:33.850 --> 01:52:13.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think kung sinubmit niya na huyan officially sa limbawa, sa korte, hindi na huw pwede yan. Pero yung process namin, yung evaluation saka case build up, naguusap po ang prosecutor saka yung investigator. So sinasabi ng pros, pag may kulang ka, Ito, ito. So, itong unang affidavit, since may kulang sa mga attachment, ayusin nyo, baguhin nyo, i-comply nyo yung mga requirements. Since yung affidavit na yon is nakadate nung January 30, at magkukumply pa lang kami, anong nakumply namin, nag-submit kami sa DOJ and that is already February 10.

01:52:15.930 --> 01:52:22.890
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So magkaiba ho yung date. So definitely babaguhin namin yung date. Kasi nga dumaan kami sa process ng compliance. In other

01:52:22.890 --> 01:52:32.070
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: words, when you subscribed and sworn to your January 30, 2025 affidavit, you added documents or pages to it?

01:52:32.670 --> 01:52:41.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang sabi ko po, sir. Ang sabi ng DOJ, may kulang kayong affidavit of authentication, may kulang kayong TSN. Yun ho yung inattach namin doon sa affidavit.

01:52:41.790 --> 01:52:51.390
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Precisely. So in other words, you added documents to your January 30, 2025 affidavit? Attachments, sir. Attachments. So you admit that you added attachments to it?

01:52:51.490 --> 01:52:56.830
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Part of compliance doon sa case build-up at doon sa evaluation na requirement of the Department of Justice.

01:52:56.830 --> 01:52:57.410
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, but Mr. Wittes,

01:52:57.450 --> 01:53:03.520
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: isn't it that— Your Honor, Your Honor, again, again. Can I respectfully request? Your Honor, may

01:53:03.520 --> 01:53:03.900
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: I just

01:53:03.900 --> 01:53:11.200
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: be allowed to proceed, Your Honor? Counsel for the respondent, let the counsel for the prosecutors finish with this observation or objection. Can

01:53:11.200 --> 01:53:23.880
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: I make a respectful request to the defense to let the witness finish the answer before they propound the next question, Your Honor, please? For orderly proceeding, Your Honor, please.

01:53:24.750 --> 01:53:34.810
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Point well taken. Counsel, please proceed accordingly. And may I also remind the witness, Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer yes or no instead of yeah and nah.

01:53:34.870 --> 01:53:35.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Sorry po.

01:53:36.050 --> 01:53:40.470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So that it's clear for our records.

01:53:40.870 --> 01:53:41.350
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

01:53:41.350 --> 01:53:42.910
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, counsel for the respondent.

01:53:42.970 --> 01:53:51.560
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So you admit that after you subscribe and swear, Atty.

01:53:51.280 --> 01:54:02.000
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: January 30, 2025 affidavit, you added documents to it so that it would comply with the requirements of the DOJ. Is that what you're saying?

01:54:02.360 --> 01:54:06.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Attachments based on the requirement of the DOJ, sir.

01:54:06.080 --> 01:54:06.520
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. Thank you for that admission.

01:54:08.240 --> 01:54:13.440
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just one last point on this. Can we flash the affidavit of investigation?

01:54:13.440 --> 01:54:28.880
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: investigation? Flash page 1. This is page 13, Your Honor, of the AOI's Annex G-9, for the benefit or for the guidance of this honorable Court. The one that was flashed earlier. Tech is instructed to do so.

01:54:33.340 --> 01:54:47.110
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, so this is the first page of the affidavit of investigation. Will you agree with me that this was not received by this particular document as is was not

01:54:47.110 --> 01:55:01.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: received by the DOJ? I don't have personal knowledge. Ang inutusan ko po dyan, yung executive officers and agent on case na makipag-communicate sa Department of Justice. But you are a co-signer of this, correct? Yeah, insofar as the content of the affiliation.

01:55:01.620 --> 01:55:07.360
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. And you mean to say that you didn't cause the filing of this case with the DOJ?

01:55:07.500 --> 01:55:15.180
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Inutusan ko po ang executive officers at si Agent Trilong na sila mag-process po na dalhin yung referral na yan sa Department of Justice, sir.

01:55:15.220 --> 01:55:23.490
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: At any rate, You're smart enough to peruse the first page and you can see that there's no received stamp appearing there too, correct?

01:55:24.480 --> 01:55:33.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Received from DOJ or by DOJ? By DOJ. Again, ang makakasagot niyan, yung nag-process niyan, si Executive Officer nga namin. But based on

01:55:33.160 --> 01:55:36.840
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: only... Again, the witness is still in the process of answering the question.

01:55:36.920 --> 01:55:39.680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, take it easy. Let the witness complete his answer.

01:55:39.920 --> 01:56:04.580
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, Your Honor. But based as it appears only, as it appears on this document... This is part of the records and also uploaded in the Senate website already last July 12 so that the public can peruse. Annex GGG, this is page 13. Based on this document and observation, can you notice any received stamp on this document?

01:56:05.340 --> 01:56:09.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Based on that document, wala akong naka-stamped or received. Precisely

01:56:09.160 --> 01:56:23.440
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: my point, that this was attached, if this was really received by the DOJ, there should have been an IDF, right, or a transmittal letter attached to this. Again, yung makakasagot po niyan, yung executive officers, Agent Kalilong, and the

01:56:23.440 --> 01:56:28.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: prosecution, sir. Kasi sila wang nag-uusap siyan. Sila ang nagdala ng dokumento na yan.

01:56:30.620 --> 01:56:32.820
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, I'll move on to a new point.

01:56:34.340 --> 01:56:37.600
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, Article 4 of... Hi.

01:56:40.830 --> 01:56:44.230
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is the pleasure of Senator Judge Pia Cayetano?

01:56:50.460 --> 01:56:59.380
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Mr. President, I wanted to take the floor before the defense went to another point so I wouldn't interrupt his train of thought. The

01:56:59.380 --> 01:57:01.460
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: lady has two minutes and may proceed when she's ready.

01:57:01.910 --> 01:57:09.800
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Thank you, Mr. President. My question is actually addressed to both counsels and to the witness.

01:57:09.800 --> 01:57:10.190
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, ma'am.

01:57:10.540 --> 01:57:14.800
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: So the witness also happens to be a lawyer. Apat na abogado po tayo mag-uusap dito.

01:57:15.100 --> 01:57:35.380
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Pero ang pakiusap ko, speak in layman's terms because we want the public to understand. Very simple question. I want to understand your appreciation of the crime of great threats. Okay? It sounds like a simple question but when I look at the elements, so explain ko din sa mga nakikinig.

01:57:37.670 --> 01:57:46.690
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Pag tinignan natin ang definition ng crime, So the prosecution must always prove yung elements of the crime. Ang

01:57:46.690 --> 01:58:38.290
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: question ko ay, in your appreciation, dapat ba na ang supposed victim nakaramdam talaga siya ng threats? Or is it enough that the general public considers the statement threatening? Okay, so is it personal or is it a general sentiment? Now, before I proceed, gusto ko magbigay ng example para maintindihan ang mga kababayan natin. Kung magkapit-bahay, nagkapikunan dun sa bakod, tapos sabi nung isa, bubulohin ko to. Is that a grave threat? Second example, dalawang boksingero, nagka-initan, susuntukin kita. This is among two professional boxers. Is that a grave threat? Third example, police.

01:58:41.000 --> 01:59:31.580
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Sabi, bubunutan ko to ng barel. Is that a grave threat? Maybe it's just offensive. Dahil sa professional life, you shouldn't say that to a fellow police. And my fourth example is a senator. Pag sinabi niyang bibit-biting kita, kekwelyuhan kita, palalayasan kita, is that a grave threat? I'll add some details. If that is supposedly addressed to a fellow senator and she is a female senator like me, na kahit na hindi naman isa hung kilalang runner, marathoner, but a non-violent person, is that a grave threat? Well, I'll just tell you my personal opinion and then I'll tell you now. I felt that was a grave threat. So may I ask the counsel and the witness to now answer the question. Thank you.

01:59:32.320 --> 01:59:33.840
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: If you may, Your Honor, please.

01:59:34.040 --> 01:59:39.220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your prosecution, po. Sen. Judge Pia, who do you want to answer first?

01:59:41.710 --> 01:59:56.670
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Good question. Pag-iisipan ko ng matagal yan, Mr. President. I give you the decision on that one, Mr. President. Siguro prosecution kasi sila naman ang kailangan mag-prove ng case nila. And then the witness and then the defense counsel.

01:59:57.050 --> 02:00:18.790
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Again, an admonition from the chair. Without stating conclusions of fact and law that again is reserved for the impeachment court, you may state your opinions with respect to... The elements of the crime of grave threats specifically identified by the Senator-Judge. And

02:00:18.790 --> 02:00:25.830
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: if I may, Presiding Officer, feel free to interrupt them if you feel that they have crossed the line, as I will. That's why

02:00:25.830 --> 02:00:32.110
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: I just want, I repeat my question, I want to understand your appreciation of the crime. You may...

02:00:32.820 --> 02:00:39.200
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Ano, Mr. President? Will we allow them to cite jurisprudence? I leave it up to you. I just want to understand the appreciation kasi. What do you think?

02:00:39.360 --> 02:01:01.320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Doon sa particular pong katanungang yun ni Sen. Judge Pia Cayetano na dapat ba may takot na naramdaman? Correct me if I'm wrong, Sen. Judge Pia? Yes. Yun taong tinatakot o subject matter ng grave threats o pampublikong pagtanggap pa na nakakatakot yung mga sinabi niya laban doon sa... Taong tinatakot niya.

02:01:01.460 --> 02:01:07.200
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Siguro, a simple yes or no with a very short explanation would suffice, Mr. Presiding Officer.

02:01:07.420 --> 02:01:09.060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ligutan, you have two

02:01:09.060 --> 02:01:09.500
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: minutes. Maraming

02:01:09.500 --> 02:01:58.110
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: salamat sa Sen. Pia Caetano. Maraming salamat sa pagkakataon. Yung sagot sa tanong na iyan, yung sagot po ng prosecution, hindi po galing sa opinion ng aking mga kasama, ito po ay isang decision. No less than the Supreme Court of the Philippines. It just so happened, Your Honors, as an answer, in answer po sa tanong ni Sen. Pia Caetano, may dalawang kaso na po yung Supreme Court. Yung isa is paera versus people. Yung GR number, siguro yung mga law students, no? Mga law students? GR number 181626, May 30, 2011. The title is paera versus people. Sinabi ng Supreme Court doon.

02:02:00.910 --> 02:02:02.350
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Wala pong batas.

02:02:02.350 --> 02:02:34.500
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: na nagre-require na may private complainant. Ibig sabihin, hindi po required na iyong biktima mag-execute ng affidavit upang iyong akusado po ay puwedeng ma-found guilty ng grave threats. Paera v. People. But more than that, Your Honor, please. May isang kaso pa. No less than the Supreme Court of the Philippines. Sinabi roon, hindi po kailangan

02:02:34.500 --> 02:03:18.920
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: na iyong recipient mismo nakaramdam ng takot or that sineryoso iyong pagbabanta, Your Honor. To repeat, itong sinabi ng Supreme Court: all that needs to be proven is that they were intended by the accused to have that effect. Iyong sagot sa tanong, hindi po galing sa prosecution, hindi po opinion, galing mismo sa Supreme Court of the Philippines.

02:03:27.350 --> 02:04:01.320
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: My memory aid correctly. There are only certain private crimes that need a private complainant. And most of these are personal crimes such as concubinage, adultery, seduction, abduction, rape, and acts of lasciviousness. Although these crimes are all entitled people of the Philippines versus the accused, without a private complainant, these crimes cannot be filed by the prosecutor. In court without the cooperation or affidavit of the private complainant. Counsel for respondent will please reply to the query of Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano. You also have two minutes, sir.

02:04:03.500 --> 02:04:49.560
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. I will try to avoid making conclusions of fact and law, Your Honor, but I will answer in light of the facts of this case and leave it up to the discretion of this honorable court. It is our position. That the statements made by the Vice President were not threats in the first place. That's why we were categorizing it as a mere response to a Q&A, number one. Number two, it was never aimed directly at BBM, FL, and the former Speaker.

02:04:51.250 --> 02:04:58.130
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, had they not watched the video, for example, they wouldn't have known about it.

02:05:02.970 --> 02:05:05.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So in other words, Your Honor,

02:05:07.670 --> 02:05:09.850
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: there was

02:05:12.150 --> 02:05:27.690
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: no threats to begin with. And so even the discussion on the elements is not really applicable insofar as determining the innocence or guilt.

02:05:27.690 --> 02:05:56.780
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: of the vice president that is basically our position that is one more thing and practically we uh maintain this position all throughout our pleadings we never uh referred to that statement as threats we always say that if at all they were alleged threats but we referred to the statements of the vice president as statements as responses and even in my speech that's what i said

02:05:56.780 --> 02:06:00.690
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It was a response, Your Honor. That would be all, yeah.

02:06:00.990 --> 02:06:08.710
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. Atty. Lotoc, your response to Sen. Judge Pia's question based on your investigation. You may proceed, sir.

02:06:08.750 --> 02:06:19.310
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. In establishing, Your Honor, whether or not the crime of great threat exists, we follow the rule.

02:06:21.020 --> 02:07:34.420
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: First, whether there is an actus reus, and then second, whether there is a mens rea. So, actus reus, Your Honor, means whether the offender, in fact, uttered the threatening remarks. We were able to establish that. That's why inauthenticate po ng NBI yung video na kung saan nandoon yung utterances. The test of mens rea, Your Honor, what we did, we interpret the utterances objectively. And in the light of the circumstances in which they were uttered, in the manner in which those appearances were spoken, the person to whom they were addressed, the appearances were addressed, the relationship between the parties, meaning the offender and the recipients, and then the reactions of the recipients, whether they treat the The utterance is serious or real. But again, I would agree with what Atty.

02:07:36.000 --> 02:08:07.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In fact, ang basis po namin diyan, iyong Garma v. People. Ang isa po doon sa sinabi ng Garma v. People, hindi ho kailangan na ma-intimidate o itrato ng recipient na seryoso iyong threat na iyan. Ang sufficient na maipakita lang na iyon iyong intention ng offender: to intimidate and to treat seriously the utterances or threatening remarks na ginawa niya. Iyon po is iyong naging basihan po namin, Your Honor.

02:08:08.000 --> 02:08:10.840
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I hope that satisfies Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano.

02:08:11.730 --> 02:08:16.670
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: It actually does, but if I still have time, I have a follow-up question for all.

02:08:19.030 --> 02:08:22.850
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Well, anyway, everyone went overtime, so since my bell hasn't rung—

02:08:22.850 --> 02:08:25.430
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No, you don't, but you can ask your final question, ma'am.

02:08:25.530 --> 02:08:26.990
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Just a quick follow-up.

02:08:28.670 --> 02:08:40.170
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Siguro sa witness na lang. You mentioned the word threat, no? So, can you just elaborate on that? What to you would be the difference between a threat?

02:08:42.450 --> 02:08:44.590
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: A threat and a... Sorry,

02:08:44.650 --> 02:08:55.450
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: sorry. I don't know if you uttered the word that I want to ask you now. But you referred to threat, of course. What would be the difference between a mere warning and a threat?

02:08:57.170 --> 02:08:59.590
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: A mere warning and a threat. At

02:08:59.590 --> 02:09:04.460
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: what point does a warning become a threat?

02:09:05.440 --> 02:09:11.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, Your Honor, if I'm going to... Based on our investigation, kung i-apply ko yung—

02:09:11.370 --> 02:09:11.830
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Ah, hindi na?

02:09:12.010 --> 02:09:14.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: You don't

02:09:14.820 --> 02:09:21.240
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: have to. Just asking your legal opinion. You're a lawyer. Di may answer? Is it not correct, Mr. President?

02:09:21.580 --> 02:09:22.480
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think— If

02:09:22.480 --> 02:09:23.860
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: he knows? Just

02:09:23.860 --> 02:09:27.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: in my own opinion, although— Warning

02:09:29.170 --> 02:09:43.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: is maybe there is a— What we call an event-based condition. Pwedeng ganon na— Pag inulit mo ito, itong gagawin ko sa'yo. Pwede hong warning yon.

02:09:43.720 --> 02:10:07.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Diba ganun din yung threat? Yung threat, Your Honor, pag ang threat is with a condition, pwede ho siyang mag-fall ng ganun. Pag sinabi ng threat is, pag ginawa mo ito, ito ang gagawin ko sa'yo, papatayin kita, papatayin ko yung pamilya mo, papatayin ko yung ganyan. So para siyang nag-overlap, depende sa appreciation for us, ng investigator.

02:10:09.380 --> 02:10:31.340
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, but in so far as the NBI Cybercrime Division is concerned, what we did is we established the elements of the great threats based on the surrounding facts and circumstances and then we conclude that indeed nag-violate ho ang ating Vice Presidente.

02:10:32.440 --> 02:10:37.430
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, warning in Filipino is babala.

02:10:38.990 --> 02:10:39.770
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes. Opo.

02:10:40.450 --> 02:10:42.350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Threat in Filipino is banta.

02:10:42.850 --> 02:10:44.210
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes. Opo. Opo.

02:10:44.290 --> 02:10:48.390
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kaya diba babala, bawal magtapon ng basura dito.

02:10:48.990 --> 02:10:51.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Pwede po yun, Sir.

02:10:51.270 --> 02:10:54.730
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Diba? Ang tanong ni Sen. Rupia, kailan nagiging banta yun?

02:10:56.900 --> 02:11:27.590
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, ito depende sa konteksto siguro, Your Honor. May warning din po kasi na I warned you. I warn you, sinasabi ko, pag inulit mo ito, ito ang mangyayari sa'yo. May konteksto na ganun, Your Honor, na somehow nag-overlap siya doon sa elements ng great threats na conditional, na sinabi na pag ito ang nangyari, ito ang gagawin ko sa'yo. So, depende sa konteksto, Your Honor.

02:11:28.090 --> 02:11:34.930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So, depende sa konteksto, sa delivery, sa taas ng boses, gaano kagalit, may kapasidad.

02:11:35.440 --> 02:11:35.860
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, po.

02:11:36.000 --> 02:11:37.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, po, your honor.

02:11:40.500 --> 02:11:41.480
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Villa?

02:11:41.580 --> 02:11:49.060
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Yeah, so in other words, it depends on the circumstances surrounding the incident or the time that

02:11:49.060 --> 02:11:50.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: the utterance

02:11:50.160 --> 02:11:50.560
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: was made.

02:11:50.740 --> 02:11:51.300
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, ma'am.

02:11:51.490 --> 02:12:12.610
Sen. Pia S. Cayetano: Okay, so laging contextual. Okay, maraming salamat sa lahat. I just want to emphasize na, Mr. Presiding Officer, I posted my question to each of the councils and the witness precisely so that tayo masabihan na may bias. Isa lang yung binibigyan natin ng opportunity to explain their side. I really genuinely just wanted to know what their appreciation of the definition of grave threats is. Thank you so much.

02:12:12.690 --> 02:12:16.230
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We thank the good Senator Judge for intervention. All of the comments are noted.

02:12:17.960 --> 02:12:21.930
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Council for the Respondent. Proceed with your cross when you're ready.

02:12:22.210 --> 02:12:58.220
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, I'll move on to a new point. Now, Article 4 of the Articles of Impeachment against VP Sara deals with three accusations. Number one, contracting for the assassination. Number two, making grave threats. And number three, actively inciting sedition. So, on page 28 of your Affidavit of Investigation, which is page 40 of Annex G9 again, you recommended— Only one count of inciting to sedition and three counts of grave threats. You confirm this?

02:12:58.560 --> 02:12:59.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:12:59.320 --> 02:13:15.790
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. And the three counts of grave threats were for BBM, FL, and the former speaker? Yes, sir. My next question is very simple. Did you include any charge relating to contracting for the assassination?

02:13:18.150 --> 02:13:34.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Relating to contracting for the assassination? No, sir. Yung charge namin is grave threats, inciting prostitution, and on that grave threat, doon po pumasok yung appearances na may kinontrata ang vice-presidente.

02:13:34.770 --> 02:13:42.990
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. So, pinagsama niyo na lahat. Even yung contracting assassin, sinama niyo na sa grave threats. According to you now?

02:13:43.370 --> 02:13:46.770
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: You know ang basis ng grave threats namin. Alright.

02:13:46.870 --> 02:13:49.630
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, let's go to page 13 of the...

02:13:51.280 --> 02:13:56.480
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Affidavit of Investigations G9. We flashed it on the screen.

02:13:58.890 --> 02:14:12.500
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: There. It says, 1 count of inciting to sedition and 3-1. So, 3 na 1 count of grave threats. So, ano

02:14:12.500 --> 02:14:20.780
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: to? Ah, typo na. Alright. Typographical error na naman. Alright. So, with all these mga...

02:14:22.450 --> 02:14:33.110
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Mga infirmities, and you mentioned yesterday that your case is airtight. Don't you think that these errors constituted violations of due process?

02:14:33.630 --> 02:14:35.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, the

02:14:37.370 --> 02:14:58.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: existence of these typographical errors does not alter the fact that the video exists, does not alter the fact that the Vice President uttered those statements, does not alter the fact na ang NBI merong findings at ang findings nila The Vice President committed the crime of great threats and inciting to sedition.

02:15:00.590 --> 02:15:10.130
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. Now, inciting to sedition punishes someone who incites others to overthrow the government. Is that accurate? Who incites others.

02:15:10.350 --> 02:15:11.530
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Alright. Now,

02:15:12.060 --> 02:15:21.500
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: it has been over one and a half years since VP Sara's speech. My question is, has the government been overthrown following her speech?

02:15:21.920 --> 02:15:30.200
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, as I've said, As I've explained that, Your Honor, it is not necessary to be a seditious... Your Honor, can we

02:15:30.200 --> 02:15:32.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: ask that the

02:15:32.020 --> 02:15:32.960
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: witness answers in

02:15:32.960 --> 02:15:34.000
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: a more responsive manner? Witness, kindly,

02:15:34.000 --> 02:15:38.880
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: attorney to talk, kindly answer the question directly so that the court's time is not wasted.

02:15:40.210 --> 02:15:41.330
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, any questions, sir?

02:15:41.990 --> 02:15:46.870
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Has the government been overthrown following VP Sara's speech? Not necessary, sir.

02:15:47.010 --> 02:15:47.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No.

02:15:47.960 --> 02:15:49.700
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, it's not necessary, sir.

02:15:49.840 --> 02:15:54.380
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Has any agency or department of the government been overthrown following her speech?

02:15:54.760 --> 02:15:56.320
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Not necessary, sir. No. Alright.

02:15:56.740 --> 02:16:13.980
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, I am showing you a news article entitled, 'Palace Dismisses Destab Rumors vs. Marcos Admin.' This was marked as our D-4-66. If I may ask my co-counsel to confront the witness with this.

02:16:13.980 --> 02:16:19.030
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: We may do so, with the participation, if he so desires, of assisting counsel for the prosecutors.

02:16:19.030 --> 02:16:32.770
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the benefit of this honorable court as well as the people watching, we also flashed that news article. So based on this article, you confirmed that Claire Castro speaks on behalf of BBM.

02:16:33.800 --> 02:16:37.960
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I don't have personal knowledge on that event, sir.

02:16:38.220 --> 02:16:47.610
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, that's okay. But based on her statement in this news article or title, Do you confirm that there has been no destabilization efforts against BBM?

02:16:48.090 --> 02:16:53.710
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, I don't have personal knowledge on that statement made by Atty. Claire Castro.

02:16:53.830 --> 02:17:08.430
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay, that's okay. I'm showing you another recent article. June 12, 2026. This has been marked, Your Honor, as our D-4-67. Can we confront the witness and show also the document on screen?

02:17:10.650 --> 02:17:25.090
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Before the good counsel proceed, can I make a manifestation? Again, these documents have yet to be authenticated. So, for the record, it's like presenting these documents without...

02:17:25.090 --> 02:17:37.270
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: without proper basis and proper authentication, which I do believe should have been done before a witness is confronted with these documents. As per our rules, Your Honor.

02:17:37.270 --> 02:17:42.150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: It's not an objection, counsel for the respondent. The remarks and comments of counsel for the prosecutors are noted.

02:17:43.900 --> 02:17:50.160
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: But counsel, for clarity, this is a pre-marked exhibit for the respondent, correct? You may proceed, sir.

02:17:50.870 --> 02:17:56.010
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So again, based on this, just your basic reading of this,

02:17:56.010 --> 02:18:09.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Sara Duterte, 'I won't grab Marcos' position.' Is this news article consistent also with the previous article that no destabilization efforts are present against the government?

02:18:09.970 --> 02:18:11.810
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, I don't have personal knowledge, sir.

02:18:12.030 --> 02:18:24.630
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Can I make a counter-manifestation order? This is dated June 12, 2026, two years after the event. Manifestation, Your Honor, please. Two years after the Vice President uttered the threats.

02:18:25.240 --> 02:18:28.000
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. Councilman proceed.

02:18:28.280 --> 02:18:48.620
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Okay. I want to talk about the discussion in your affidavit of investigation. I want to go through it very quickly but the affidavit of investigation is also marked as our D-1-145-A. You mentioned in your affidavit of investigation the case of Garma v. People, correct?

02:18:49.080 --> 02:18:49.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:18:49.800 --> 02:18:53.060
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. And you cited the doctrine of this case, correct?

02:18:54.000 --> 02:18:54.900
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Were you

02:18:54.900 --> 02:18:58.220
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the one who typed that portion in your revised affidavit of investigation?

02:18:58.880 --> 02:19:05.240
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I'm the one who typed? Yes. Being the chief, sir, inuutos ko yung executive officers. But did you read the case in full?

02:19:08.120 --> 02:19:12.880
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, I think, pero not thoroughly. Isang basahan lang.

02:19:13.760 --> 02:19:27.720
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, was there a video recording involved in that case? No. Did that case include a public official like the vice president? In fact, it involved a group of three farmers, correct?

02:19:28.240 --> 02:19:28.820
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:19:29.040 --> 02:19:42.830
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, let's go to the case of Reyes v. People. You also cited that page 29 of your affidavit of investigation. Did you read this case in full? If I may check my affidavit,

02:19:42.830 --> 02:19:44.750
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Your Honor? The witness may do so. Okay,

02:20:02.800 --> 02:20:04.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: sir. Did you read this

02:20:04.280 --> 02:20:04.980
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: case in full?

02:20:10.770 --> 02:20:12.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Did

02:20:12.110 --> 02:20:14.550
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: you read the facts of this case?

02:20:15.930 --> 02:20:29.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think it's about yung threat against a person nung nasa Navy office siya and then sinuntan siya hanggang sa bahay. May dalang mga placard. Yun yata yun, Sir.

02:20:30.150 --> 02:20:32.450
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right, but did it involve a video recording?

02:20:32.810 --> 02:20:33.230
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, Sir.

02:20:33.350 --> 02:20:36.270
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Did it involve an official like the Vice President?

02:20:36.980 --> 02:20:37.740
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, Sir.

02:20:37.800 --> 02:20:42.300
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You cited the Ruaza versus People, page 29. Did you read this case in full?

02:20:45.380 --> 02:20:56.720
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ruaza. Yes, sir.

02:20:56.900 --> 02:21:01.460
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: You read the case. Did it involve, again, a video recording?

02:21:02.540 --> 02:21:02.980
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir.

02:21:03.140 --> 02:21:06.080
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Did it involve a public official like the vice president?

02:21:06.640 --> 02:21:07.200
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir.

02:21:07.340 --> 02:21:11.840
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, it involved three cutting activities. Do you confirm that?

02:21:12.460 --> 02:21:14.340
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Based on the... Three

02:21:14.340 --> 02:21:54.440
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: cutting. Okay. But at any rate, in paragraph 48 of your affidavit of investigation, and I'll flash that on the screen, after citing all these cases that you mentioned, You concluded, and I will read, further, the threat is intended by VP Duterte to create to the mind of President BBM-FL, former House Speaker, that regardless of the reason of death of VP Duterte, they will be killed by the person contracted by her. So in other words, you spoke about the mind of BBM-FL and the former Speaker, correct?

02:21:54.990 --> 02:22:10.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, what we cited is the principle laid out by the Supreme Court and that the facts of those cases, Your Honor. And those principles is applicable in this case, Your Honor. But that is based only on your own opinion, correct? That is based on our investigation and the evidence that we've gathered, Sir.

02:22:10.990 --> 02:22:17.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In fact, I have a different opinion than yours that I will show you. Argumentative, Your Honor. No, no, no. Argumentative. Your Honor,

02:22:17.110 --> 02:22:18.370
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I will introduce a new article.

02:22:18.890 --> 02:22:26.640
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Objection. Argumentative. You don't argue with a witness. You ask questions. If you're not satisfied with the answer... Move on. Atty.

02:22:27.460 --> 02:22:31.220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Ligutan, kindly allow counsel for the respondent to finish his question.

02:22:31.520 --> 02:22:57.980
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Thank you, Your Honor. The opinion is not mine. This is the opinion of the late Juan Ponce Enrile, who served under BBM as Chief Presidential Legal Counsel. This has been marked as our Exhibit D-4-64. Can we flash that article? Just the title, since we don't have time. This is Juan Ponce Enrile. I'll just read the title. No criminal charge could be made versus Sara Toterte over— Kill remark. So, isn't this opinion inconsistent with your own?

02:22:58.200 --> 02:22:59.900
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I don't have personal knowledge in that, sir.

02:23:00.080 --> 02:23:10.390
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No personal knowledge again. That's okay. I'll be winding up. But do you know the difference between a felony and a crime? There's a difference between the two, correct?

02:23:10.610 --> 02:23:11.290
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, tell me, sir.

02:23:12.050 --> 02:23:15.170
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: No, I'm not on the witness stand. So, you answer the question.

02:23:15.430 --> 02:23:22.110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. Witness, kindly respond to the question. The question is, do you know? So, it's answerable by a yes or no.

02:23:22.350 --> 02:23:27.330
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think felony, sir, is in the revised penal code and a crime can be in the special law.

02:23:28.050 --> 02:23:28.870
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I agree

02:23:28.870 --> 02:23:29.210
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: with you.

02:23:29.550 --> 02:23:37.150
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: I agree. So in other words, like homicide, for example, it is a felony because it is defined and punished under the RPC, correct?

02:23:38.830 --> 02:23:39.470
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:23:39.610 --> 02:23:51.230
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Clear. Now, a crime is broader than a felony in that it pertains to acts or omission that are not punishable under the RPC but punishable under special laws, correct? Yes, sir.

02:23:53.780 --> 02:24:00.700
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Like BP 22, for example. It's not within the RPC, but it's covered by special laws, correct?

02:24:00.700 --> 02:24:15.060
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, respectfully, can I now object as to the relevance to an impeachment case of the distinction between a felony and a crime?

02:24:15.060 --> 02:24:15.980
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just laying the basis, Your Honor. I'll go to that.

02:24:15.980 --> 02:24:21.400
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: He's on cross. I will give you some leeway, but kindly get to your point, counsel.

02:24:22.660 --> 02:24:46.330
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But you confirm that there are felonies, there are crimes, correct? Yes, sir. Now, there are other high crimes which is another category than felony or crime, correct? Yes, sir. And according to Article 4 of this Articles of Impeachment, there was high crimes that was charged against VP Sara, correct?

02:24:47.160 --> 02:24:47.820
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:24:48.000 --> 02:24:51.140
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, it is a different category.

02:24:51.960 --> 02:24:53.880
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: than a felony or crime, correct?

02:24:56.820 --> 02:24:58.300
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: What do you mean by high crimes?

02:24:58.300 --> 02:25:01.220
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It's a different category from felony or crimes.

02:25:01.600 --> 02:25:06.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, there are high crimes, sir, na nasa Revised Penal Code din.

02:25:07.020 --> 02:25:11.940
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Can you give us an example? That's not a question, Your Honor, please.

02:25:12.240 --> 02:25:13.220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If he knows, counsel.

02:25:13.300 --> 02:25:14.000
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: If you know.

02:25:14.740 --> 02:25:15.400
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If he knows.

02:25:15.600 --> 02:25:17.460
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: It's like a classroom recitation, Your Honor.

02:25:18.000 --> 02:25:42.810
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, you are very well aware of the fact that you are here as a witness in an impeachment proceeding and that the crime you investigated is being used to charge the Vice President. And as a lawyer, you also are aware of Article XI of the Constitution with respect to accountability of public officers. So if you know, you may answer. If you don't, you

02:25:42.810 --> 02:25:46.970
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may say that you are not competent or that you do not know. So please respond.

02:25:50.990 --> 02:26:02.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, since kasi kayo nagbabasa, wala akong binabasa, nagre-relay ako sa memory. I cannot answer for now, Your Honor. I need to recheck the book. It does not

02:26:02.070 --> 02:26:17.110
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: reflect on your competence or knowledge of the law, Atty. Lotoc. It's okay. You were not asked to prepare for this anyway. Thank you, Your Honor. These are questions on cross. So we're giving the counsel for respondents some leeway. Counsel, please proceed.

02:26:18.490 --> 02:26:21.970
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright, my next question is very simple. Is grave threats a felony?

02:26:23.320 --> 02:26:25.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Grave threats? That's under the revised penal code? Yes, sir.

02:26:25.860 --> 02:26:37.420
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Exactly. So, it is a felony because it is defined and punished by the RTC and it is punishable by arresto mayor or one month and one day to six months of imprisonment, correct?

02:26:37.640 --> 02:27:03.540
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, again, objection. What's the relevance? Your Honor! Counsel, let me finish, please. Easy, easy. Now, as to the... What is the penalty for grave threat? That's irrelevant as to the impeachment complaint that we are litigating on the ground of relevance. Unless the council is able to prove the relevance, I will withdraw my objection or order, please.

02:27:04.080 --> 02:27:08.560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So the connection council, again, you're on a short lease, but I know where you're getting at. Get to it, please.

02:27:09.680 --> 02:27:19.190
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. In other words, grave threats. Is under the jurisdiction of the MTC or RTC as the case may be, correct?

02:27:20.920 --> 02:27:24.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Grade threats? Yeah. Pag grade threats lang, sir.

02:27:24.240 --> 02:27:25.940
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. It is even bailable, correct?

02:27:26.460 --> 02:27:33.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Pag grade threats lang, sir. Pero pag in relation to Section 6 of Republic Act 101.75, that's one degree higher, sir.

02:27:33.340 --> 02:27:38.840
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yeah, but does it change in jurisdiction or still with MTC or RTC?

02:27:40.340 --> 02:27:52.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ano na ba iyon, sir? Prisión correccional. Ano iyong sabi mo, sir? Ano iyong prisión Prisión correccional? Arresto mayor. Arresto mayor. Ang mataas po niyan is?

02:27:53.870 --> 02:27:55.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Prisión correccional.

02:27:55.450 --> 02:27:56.490
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Six months to six years.

02:27:57.510 --> 02:28:08.890
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: All right. So, either way, it's still under the trial courts, correct? My next question is very simple: is inciting to sedition a felony?

02:28:09.750 --> 02:28:12.190
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Under the Revised Penal Code, yes, sir.

02:28:12.510 --> 02:28:15.730
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Aristo Mayor, It's also under the jurisdiction of the trial courts, correct?

02:28:16.440 --> 02:28:17.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:28:18.040 --> 02:28:19.880
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: It's even bailable, correct?

02:28:21.300 --> 02:28:22.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:28:22.800 --> 02:28:27.680
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So both grave threats and inciting seditions are felonies, correct?

02:28:28.100 --> 02:28:28.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:28:29.620 --> 02:28:33.060
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: In other words, they are not impeachable offenses, if you know.

02:28:35.110 --> 02:28:50.820
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, if you mean by impeachable offenses, whether or not magkakwalify ba siya as betrayal of public trust? It's the appreciation of the judges. Your Honor, wala ko sa amin. Appreciation

02:28:50.820 --> 02:28:55.740
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: of the judges, by that you mean the trial court judges, not the senator judges. No, since impeachment,

02:28:55.800 --> 02:28:57.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: impeachment court po. Yeah,

02:28:57.580 --> 02:29:05.960
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: but there's a possibility that if it's in conflict with the trial court judges' decision, then we have a problem.

02:29:05.980 --> 02:29:09.600
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Anjection or argumentative? I will withdraw that. Ang tanong

02:29:09.600 --> 02:29:10.700
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: niyo? Ah, hindi na.

02:29:10.700 --> 02:29:17.490
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Grave threats and inciting to sedition. You said that it is not high crimes. It is a felony. Objection.

02:29:17.670 --> 02:29:20.890
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The witness didn't say that. Misleading.

02:29:21.370 --> 02:29:24.020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Misleading. Sustained. I'll

02:29:24.020 --> 02:29:26.200
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: just move on to a new point, Your Honor.

02:29:29.970 --> 02:29:30.850
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel may proceed.

02:29:35.310 --> 02:29:38.770
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Rafi Tulfoy is recognized for his intervention.

02:29:41.660 --> 02:29:42.640
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You have two minutes, sir.

02:29:44.630 --> 02:30:01.000
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge. Napag-usapan rin lang itong inciting to sedition. Nag-file ka ng kaso inciting to sedition against VP Sara based on dun sa utterances niya yung sa online presscon plus meron pa bang iba? Yes

02:30:01.100 --> 02:30:16.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: po, Your Honor. Yung basis po namin, una yung utterances in October 18, 2024. And then kinumpara po namin siya sa utterances in November 23, 2024.

02:30:17.370 --> 02:30:21.410
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So meron bang elements of sedition doon sa mga utterances niyo?

02:30:22.610 --> 02:30:33.420
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang elements na ini-establish po namin which is under the law is whether or not the speeches would tend to steer the people against the government.

02:30:33.420 --> 02:30:34.380
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So how

02:30:34.380 --> 02:30:44.200
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: would you know kung mag-i-steer yun ng uprising o makukumbine sa mga tao na mag-alsa masa base doon sa utterances ng VP Sara? How did you know?

02:30:44.580 --> 02:30:58.010
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Pangalawa, if I may explain, sir. Pangalawa ho, if the speeches would tend to disturb the peace of the community and If the speeches would tend to undermine public safety...

02:30:58.010 --> 02:31:06.190
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So how would you know if it will tend to disturb or undermine the peace and order of the community? Paano mo malalaman based doon sa utterances niya?

02:31:06.450 --> 02:31:29.950
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: The fact ko na nag-issue ng statement yung mga government agencies tasked to protect national security at ang sabi ko nila that's an active threat, that's an issue of national security, so definitely na-disturb ko yung ating... How? Well, nag-alala ho ang nasa gobyerno. Kami ho, per se, yung sabi ko kanina… Nag

02:31:29.950 --> 02:31:45.310
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: -alala kayo o nag-alala yung taong bayan? Kasi iba yung nag-aalala kayo, kayo nasa gobyerno, kayo naging bisiga versus nag-aalala yung nakarinig at yung mga at that time ay nagsusubaybay doon sa mga sinasabi ng BP. Nag-alala

02:31:45.310 --> 02:31:46.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: po ang taong bayan, definitely.

02:31:46.690 --> 02:31:47.050
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: How?

02:31:47.310 --> 02:31:52.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, marami ho kami nakita sa news. Sa comments ng social media.

02:31:52.240 --> 02:32:05.640
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Comments. So that means you factored in yung comments and reactions sa social media doon sa ginawa niyang press conference, doon sa mga utterances niya kung ano yung reaction ng mga netizens na nakapanood.

02:32:05.860 --> 02:32:07.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes po, Your Honor.

02:32:07.280 --> 02:32:08.840
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: At ano naman yung mga sinabi doon?

02:32:09.540 --> 02:32:11.380
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, yun nga.

02:32:12.980 --> 02:32:23.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung iba nag-worry ano na ba yung mangyayari sa bansa natin, bakit magulo yung mga nasa taas. Ang iba nagsasabi, ano ba ito? Saan ba ito patungo? So

02:32:23.560 --> 02:32:33.720
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: hindi pa rin seditious yun. Nag-worry lang sila saan patungo. Ang seditious is, tama ka dyan BP Zarat. Go-go tayo. Gawin natin yan. Nasa likod niyo kami. Yun yung sedition.

02:32:34.240 --> 02:32:36.400
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Meron nung ganun na comment din po, Your Honor.

02:32:36.900 --> 02:32:37.340
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Meron?

02:32:37.340 --> 02:32:38.640
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Meron po. In fact, doon…

02:32:38.640 --> 02:32:38.980
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Ano yung

02:32:38.980 --> 02:32:40.480
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: comment na yun? Kung meron.

02:32:41.740 --> 02:32:43.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung supporter po ng…

02:32:43.700 --> 02:32:44.360
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Ano ang sinabi?

02:32:45.500 --> 02:32:55.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Na… Yung nga, yung sa people power, yung sa nasa likod mo kami, kung ano yung... Nasa

02:32:55.970 --> 02:32:59.150
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: likod mo kami, people power, nabanggit yun sa comment section.

02:33:00.040 --> 02:33:06.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Sa ano, Your Honor, during interview with the Vice President, doon sa November 23, 2024.

02:33:07.200 --> 02:33:22.000
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So, meaning, binase mo, isa doon sa mga reasons kung bakit ka nag-file ng kasong sedition, base sa kaniyang utterances, dahil finactor-in mo iyong mga comments noong mga nakapanood?

02:33:22.050 --> 02:33:22.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:33:22.690 --> 02:33:23.300
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Iyong sinasabing supporters?

02:33:23.590 --> 02:33:24.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:33:24.410 --> 02:33:40.810
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay. Kasi pag sinabi ng mga nagko-comments, 'Nag-worry kami,' I don't think nandoon iyong elements of sedition. Maliban na pag sinabi na, 'Nasa likod mo kami. Let's do it. Go, go, go. Gagawin namin kung anong gusto mong gawin,' things to that effect.

02:33:41.550 --> 02:34:01.490
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Was there? Were there? Comments like those? Meron na kami nakita sa mga Facebook comments, although hindi siya nasama, na hindi siya nasama dito sa investigation. At ano nga ulit, alimbawa? Yung mga Facebook comments, Your Honor, na nagsasabi, oh, lusubin na natin ang Malacanang, tapos may ganun na sign.

02:34:01.530 --> 02:34:03.050
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Lusubin na natin ang Malacanang. Yan

02:34:03.050 --> 02:34:05.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: yung comments sa Facebook, yung mga nag-comment. At

02:34:05.850 --> 02:34:07.330
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: meron kang ebidensya tungkol diya.

02:34:07.910 --> 02:34:09.530
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi mo ito haka-haka lang?

02:34:09.670 --> 02:34:19.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kung babalikan ko po, iyon nga po ang sabi ko: during those times, siyempre nagba-browse ho kami. Iyon nga lamang, hindi namin naisama sa authentication.

02:34:19.550 --> 02:34:26.610
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: No further questions, Your Honor. Thank you, Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo. The Senate President is recognized. He has two minutes as well.

02:34:27.270 --> 02:34:36.390
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. On the same topic, on inciting to sedition, Atty. Lotoc,

02:34:36.390 --> 02:35:02.240
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Meron ba kayong nakausap na mga tao na naniwala doon sa sinasabi ni Vice President Sara on inciting to sedition? Nakita ko kasi doon sa grave threats, marami kayo in-interview. Pero in this particular case, meron ba kayong at least man lang nakausap na mga tao, inimbestiga further, kung talagang merong epekto iyong kanyang mga sinabi?

02:35:03.680 --> 02:35:06.860
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So far as the cybercrime division is concerned, Your Honor,

02:35:08.600 --> 02:35:25.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi ho kami nakapag-focus diyan. Siguro ang puwedeng makasagot niyan, Your Honor, iyong intelligence service po namin diyan sa issue na iyan. Hindi kami nakapag-focus diyan to conduct investigation on people's comments.

02:35:25.860 --> 02:35:37.340
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Para sa akin kasi, sa kabilang banda, puwede kang magsalita, pero sa kabilang banda, may naniniwala ba sa iyo? So ang gusto kong malaman, kung meron kayong nakausap na mga grupo o anyone, o naimbestigahan ninyo kung naniniwala talaga doon sa kaniyang pinagsasabi.

02:35:42.770 --> 02:35:51.330
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think ang makakasagot po niyan, iyong intelligence service, iyong director po namin, sir. Sa kaniya po iyong pool ng information.

02:35:51.330 --> 02:36:00.090
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: And then I believe na doon sa mga sinabi niya, nangyari rin ito doon sa two-hour video. Tama po ba?

02:36:00.170 --> 02:36:00.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:36:01.970 --> 02:36:07.550
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Pinatawag ninyo rin itong mga media personalities. Tinanong ninyo ba sa kanila kung

02:36:07.550 --> 02:36:25.970
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Meron sa kanilang naniwala na itong mga sinabi ni Vice President ay inciting to sedition? Dapat naniwala ba sila na iyong mga sinabi ni Vice President during the two-hour video ay pinag-aalsa iyong mga nandoon? O naniniwala they

02:36:25.970 --> 02:36:27.130
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: believe that that is

02:36:27.130 --> 02:36:28.530
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: the theme of what he said?

02:36:28.990 --> 02:36:33.790
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Not specifically inciting to sedition. Their comments were that they were

02:36:33.790 --> 02:36:36.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Na-shock sila. May comment sila doon na nasa is

02:36:36.630 --> 02:36:41.990
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: nasa real battle mode na siya. May comment siya doon na totoo na ito, seryoso na iyong galit niya. serious.

02:36:42.670 --> 02:36:44.090
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: He is really angry

02:36:44.090 --> 02:36:47.710
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: but inciting to sedition is to rise. There

02:36:47.710 --> 02:36:52.470
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: is no such comment during the Q&A portion, Your Honor.

02:36:52.690 --> 02:37:26.980
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: And just to... On a related question, Mr. Presiding Officer, exciting solicitation is serious rin. At kailangan din ito ng attention ng mga intelligence agencies natin. Meron ba kayong coordination with our iba't-ibang intelligence agencies tulad ng National Security Council, ng PNP, ng NBI, not NBI, but ng ibang mga... Security Intelligence Agencies natin, nag-coordinate bang NBI sa kanila? Kayo mismo nag-coordinate ba?

02:37:27.160 --> 02:37:37.310
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang nag-uusap po dyan, Your Honor, is kasi intelligence matter yan. Ang nag-uusap po yan between intelligence service ng NBI, intelligence units ng AFP. Atty. G.

02:37:37.090 --> 02:37:42.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: department ng PNP. So nasa level po nila iyon, sir.

02:37:42.310 --> 02:38:06.980
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Katulad ng grave threats, pagkakontrata; inciting to sedition, seryoso rito. Gusto kong malaman kung merong effort na ginawa ang NBI para makipag-coordinate sa AFP o sa PNP, dahil ito ang pinag-uusapan natin: pag-aalsa o hinihimok mong mag-alsa. Meron bang ganoong coordination na ginawa ang inyong opisina o ang NBI? Ang

02:38:06.980 --> 02:38:12.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: alam ko meron yan, pero nasa level na po yan ng intelligence service namin, Your Honor.

02:38:12.600 --> 02:38:15.340
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

02:38:15.840 --> 02:38:21.200
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. Under the records, we thank the distinguished Senate President. What is the pleasure of Senator-Judge Legarda?

02:38:33.340 --> 02:38:36.880
Sen. Loren Legarda: Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, just a few questions.

02:38:37.300 --> 02:38:39.600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The lady has two minutes. You may proceed when you're ready.

02:38:42.460 --> 02:38:44.790
Sen. Loren Legarda: This is just to provide clarity.

02:38:44.790 --> 02:38:49.910
Sen. Loren Legarda: For this representation, and just a few questions to Atty. Lotoc.

02:38:49.990 --> 02:38:50.590
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

02:38:50.770 --> 02:39:15.140
Sen. Loren Legarda: Yes. Atty. Lotoc, sa paragraph 53 ng affidavit of investigation na iyong pinirmahan, sabi ninyo po that the Vice President's statements were brought about or motivated by unpleasant circumstances occurring before the November 23, 2024 press conference.

02:39:16.020 --> 02:39:18.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I believe, nabasa ko po yan.

02:39:18.340 --> 02:39:18.640
Sen. Loren Legarda: Yes.

02:39:18.900 --> 02:39:26.640
Sen. Loren Legarda: Kasama ba ho dito yung pahayag ng Vice Presidente nung Oktubre 18, 2024? Yes, Your Honor.

02:39:26.640 --> 02:39:26.720
Sen. Loren Legarda: It's a

02:39:26.720 --> 02:39:28.400
Sen. Loren Legarda: part of your affidavit.

02:39:28.640 --> 02:39:29.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, Your Honor. Yes.

02:39:30.680 --> 02:39:43.240
Sen. Loren Legarda: Bago naman po magsimula ang press conference noong November 23, mayroon mga pangyayaring kasama ang Chief of Staff, si Atty. Zuleika Lopez,

02:39:43.240 --> 02:39:51.390
Sen. Loren Legarda: na may kinalaman sa mga na-cite in contempt sa Kamara, detention—

02:39:50.640 --> 02:39:51.390
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo.

02:39:51.399 --> 02:39:56.160
Sen. Loren Legarda: Medical emergency at mga planong paglilipat.

02:39:56.160 --> 02:39:56.469
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:39:56.479 --> 02:39:59.200
Sen. Loren Legarda: Ah, hindi pa po ako tapos. Sorry po.

02:39:59.200 --> 02:40:06.720
Sen. Loren Legarda: ng piitan sa Correctional Institute for Women sa Mandaluyong.

02:40:06.720 --> 02:40:10.410
Sen. Loren Legarda: Tama po ba na mga pangyayaring ito ay naganap

02:40:10.410 --> 02:40:16.439
Sen. Loren Legarda: ilang oras bago iyong ginawang press conference na ipinakita ilang beses sa video?

02:40:17.050 --> 02:40:20.250
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Kasama po yan sa investigation namin.

02:40:20.990 --> 02:40:40.480
Sen. Loren Legarda: Kahapon po, sinabi po ng testigo kayo po na kinonsider ng NBI yung so-called bigger picture. I think those were the words that you used. Sabi niyo pa, you put all the pieces of the puzzle together. In your own words.

02:40:40.680 --> 02:40:41.220
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, your honor.

02:40:41.360 --> 02:41:35.320
Sen. Loren Legarda: Yes. Para malinaw lamang sa Impeachment Court, trying to absorb everything, saan po yatang bahagi ng affidavit of investigation nakasaad iyong mga factual findings ng NBI tungkol sa mga pangyayari noong November 22 and 23 bago iyong press conference? I was perusing the affidavit of the investigation. And I could not find the detailed circumstances leading to November 23 where where, admittedly, there was emotions, like like an emotional hyperbole or an outburst but the events leading to the press conference. San po yun sa inyong affidavit?

02:41:35.320 --> 02:41:38.460
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think, Your Honor, nasa affidavit of transcription po yan.

02:41:39.100 --> 02:43:01.270
Sen. Loren Legarda: I read it a few times. I could not see the detailed events leading to that. Having mentioned the medical emergency, the transfers to the Correctional Institute for Women, and so that the person who will read the affidavit will have a factual, and complete appreciation of the events leading to the press conference. Perhaps your view, having been the person who filed the complaint, may have a different, perhaps, appreciation from my view because I find it somewhat incomplete. And that is just my comment on this because You clearly said you put all the pieces together. And during that time, alam ba ninyo na habang sinasagawa ng NBI ang investigasyong ito, may nakabimbin na direct assault, resistance and disobedience to authority, at grave coercion laban sa Vice President kaugnay iyong insidente na nangyari sa hospital, sa Veterans Medical Center?

02:43:01.840 --> 02:43:03.040
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Narinig ko lang po, Your Honor.

02:43:03.140 --> 02:43:11.060
Sen. Loren Legarda: Yes, you heard about that. Yes. And was there an investigation that was done regarding that incident?

02:43:11.830 --> 02:43:25.130
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think ang focus po namin, Your Honor, is yung violation ng great threats by the Vice President and inciting to sedition. Now, pagdating ho doon sa nangyari sa Vice Presidente,

02:43:25.130 --> 02:43:38.460
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yun nga sabi ko, hindi ako aware sa kabuan ng facts na yon. Baka yung ibang agency nag-imbestiga po doon. Hindi ako aware, Your Honor, doon

02:43:38.460 --> 02:43:40.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: And so,

02:43:40.440 --> 02:43:49.680
Sen. Loren Legarda: would the answer, Atty. Lotoc, be a no? Were these taken into consideration in the investigation?

02:43:51.000 --> 02:43:52.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Or would

02:43:52.440 --> 02:43:59.760
Sen. Loren Legarda: this be a yes, meaning it is contained in the affidavit which I'm trying to look for as well?

02:44:06.920 --> 02:44:07.640
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Actually,

02:44:12.740 --> 02:45:49.670
Sen. Loren Legarda: ilang beses ko po binasa yung affidavit and what I see is there was A focus on the October 18. But on all the events on November 22 and 23, the detailed events leading to the emotional outburst did not seem complete. And that's what I'm trying to elicit from Atty. Lotoc, our witness, because when we say that we had considered the bigger picture, All the facts and circumstances leading to the cases of great threat and inciting to sedition that were recommended, we want to understand the whole process and the factual context in which it happened. Because if you are to take snapshots of events and focus on October 18 and the press conference, It can shock any person. However, if you see as well the events leading to the emotions and the detention of the chief of staff and the vice president herself, iba pa yung kasong ito, iba pa yung naditina, iba pa yung sinampang kaso at pinagsarahan ng pinto ng ambulansya, kaya nagkaroon ng kasong ganon. I tried.

02:45:50.270 --> 02:46:05.310
Sen. Loren Legarda: to read the affidavit a few times and could not find such a comprehensive enumeration of facts by the NBI, and that's why this query.

02:46:07.560 --> 02:46:09.180
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Puwede na po, Your Honor?

02:46:09.400 --> 02:46:09.800
Sen. Loren Legarda: Yes, please.

02:46:11.040 --> 02:46:20.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Meron hong affidavit of transcription kung anong nangyari, and then nag-submit po kami ng authenticated na video para makita ng mga Senator-Judges natin

02:46:21.150 --> 02:46:26.270
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: kung what happened during those dates, for appreciation po ninyo.

02:46:27.810 --> 02:46:58.210
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So makikita ko rito kung ano yung nag-took place during the November 23, 2024 online press conference. But then again, as I've said, at in-explain ko na rin ito kahapon, Your Honor, if I may. Kinonsider namin yung situation ni Atty. Zulaica Lopez. Nakita namin yung complaint niya, yung reklamo niya, yung health condition na sinasabi niya. Sinama din po namin yun ano ba yung nangyari.

02:47:00.310 --> 02:47:09.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Taking all the situations or the facts and circumstances attendant to that event,

02:47:09.450 --> 02:47:39.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi ho na-alter yung the fact na nag-alter ang Vice President ng grave threats against the three. Despite of the fact na merong emotional situation na ganoon. Hindi rin ho na-alter na merong violation na ginawa yung Vice President during that online press conference. And as a matter of fact, even before that emotional situation,

02:47:39.520 --> 02:48:16.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Malinaw ho doon sa utterances, even before that emotional situation, sinasabi ho doon sa utterances, 'Meron na akong kinausap.' So nag-trigger na ho iyon, ma'am. Meron na akong kinausap na isang tao para patayin ang Presidente, ang First Lady, at iyong Speaker of the House. So kahit sinama po namin siya to consider everything, again, Your Honor, hindi ho nabago iyong ginawa ng Vice President. Hindi rin ho nabago na iyong instruction niya is relentless in killing the three.

02:48:16.750 --> 02:49:05.400
Sen. Loren Legarda: Atty. Lotoc, what I've been trying to ask is not just just the utterances which we've watched several times, but all the events leading to the utterances. And that is what I want. I understand what you're saying that there were... attachments or transcription. But the transcription would not be considered an assessment or an investigation. These were perhaps attached as transcription. And you earlier said that the threats are circumstantial. And that is the reason why I was looking for that in the affidavit of the investigation.

02:49:05.400 --> 02:49:45.200
Sen. Loren Legarda: In short, para pong nakulangan ako, pero kung sinabi ninyong in-attach ninyo iyong transcript, so be it. But then, if you will read the fifty-plus pages again of your investigation, it seemed to me, at least at this point, that snapshots were taken focusing on October 18 and the utterances. But there seem to be events leading to it that may not have been included.

02:49:45.200 --> 02:49:48.840
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: With the indulgence of Senator-Judge Legarda, kindly wind up, ma'am.

02:49:49.000 --> 02:50:04.280
Sen. Loren Legarda: Yes. So the last question, thank you Mr. Presiding Officer. Na-interview rin niyo po ang mga membro ng media and you asked them factual information. Did you also ask them about the emotional state?

02:50:04.920 --> 02:50:26.600
Sen. Loren Legarda: ng mga kalahok sa media, iyong mga pangyayaring naganap bago ginawa iyong mga naturang pahayag. In short, not just the factual statement, but the atmosphere, the events leading to that Zoom press conference that led to the perceived or alleged utterances.

02:50:27.060 --> 02:50:33.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Wala po iyan sa minutes of meeting, sa Q&A. Wala po iyan, Your Honor.

02:50:33.630 --> 02:51:06.020
Sen. Loren Legarda: Should you not have asked the members of media and the others who were part of that so that you would have in your own words sir the complete picture so that everything is taken into consideration on why such a highly placed person would give such utterances because such conditions existed that might have just might have elicited it but you did not do that investigation or at least conversations with the members of media, I leave it at that.

02:51:06.020 --> 02:51:07.740
Sen. Loren Legarda: Thank you for answering my questions.

02:51:08.900 --> 02:51:15.260
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Legarda. Senator Judge Pangilinan, you're recognized. Yes, thank you, Mr. President. And you

02:51:15.260 --> 02:51:15.800
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may proceed when

02:51:15.800 --> 02:51:34.800
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: you're ready. A few questions on inciting to sedition. Yes, Your Honor. For the witness, kasi pinapaliwanag mo yung sinasagot mo yung tanong ni Senate President Winn kanina, no? Nasa NBI ka na Cybercrime Division since 2018.

02:51:35.580 --> 02:51:37.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. So,

02:51:37.120 --> 02:51:48.960
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: naalala mo ba yung kaso ni Ronell Mas? Yung taga Zambales na nagkaroon ng Facebook post. Yes,

02:51:48.960 --> 02:51:51.980
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Sir. Naalala ko po pero hindi kami mahahawag ng case na yan. Pero

02:51:51.980 --> 02:51:59.600
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: kung maalala mo dahil division ninyo ang nagsampan ng kasong inciting to sedition. Tama ba?

02:52:00.090 --> 02:52:03.210
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I-check ko yung record. Hindi po yata kung may hanggang. Well,

02:52:03.270 --> 02:52:04.830
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: to refresh your memory.

02:52:06.530 --> 02:52:15.610
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Nag-post siya sa social media offering 50 million to anyone who would kill former President Duterte. At that time, he was

02:52:15.610 --> 02:52:16.690
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: the President. So, you

02:52:16.690 --> 02:52:17.470
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: remember that?

02:52:17.590 --> 02:52:18.410
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. That's the news.

02:52:19.450 --> 02:52:33.770
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Tapos, inaresto siya. Sabi niya, I will give 50 million reward kung sino makapatay sa dating Presidente. So, Nakita ng inyong division na ito ay inciting to sedition, tama? Yes, sir.

02:52:34.370 --> 02:52:40.070
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And therefore, sinampahan siya ng anti-crime, anti-cybercrime law.

02:52:40.450 --> 02:52:41.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, sir.

02:52:41.330 --> 02:53:08.660
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Meron ding isang kaso, 14 May 2020, dito naman sa Osamis, pero palagay ko police investigation ito, no? Pero same, Cybercrime Prevention Act, inciting to sedition, ginamit ang Facebook account. Joe Mark Medina and posted that he would give 150 million to anyone who would kill then President Duterte. So, ito rin naging kaso ng anti-cybercrime law.

02:53:08.860 --> 02:53:10.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Nabalitaan din po namin.

02:53:10.080 --> 02:53:21.400
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. So, dito sa dalawang ito, in other words, to explain inciting to sedition, ang ganitong mga remarks have the tendency precisely to

02:53:23.450 --> 02:53:36.710
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: to, if not attack the government, mobilize individuals or people to go against the government?

02:53:36.710 --> 02:53:37.790
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:53:37.790 --> 02:53:49.030
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So that is what you found in the later case of inciting to sedition that you have recommended for preliminary investigation against the Vice President? As

02:53:49.030 --> 02:53:50.050
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: a matter of fact,

02:53:53.020 --> 02:54:33.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Heated arguments namin during that time noong ina-analyze namin iyong case. Nagtanong kami sa sarili namin: if we allow this unaddressed, iyong ganiyan na nagbabanta sa buhay ng Presidente, pag hinayaan lang natin at iyan iyong maging norms ng ating society, kahit sino na lang po puwedeng gawin iyon. At alam ho natin, magkakagulo pag ganoon at walang regulation at pag hindi ho ni-restrict iyan. Sasabihin naman ng mga tao, 'Okay naman pala kahit mag-threat ka.' Lalo na ngayon dahil sa social media, malaking impluwensiya. Pag nakikitang nangyayari ito at hindi natutugunan— sabi

02:54:33.030 --> 02:54:33.470
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: niyo may problem.

02:54:33.670 --> 02:54:34.990
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Thank you. Thank you. Thank

02:54:34.990 --> 02:54:35.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: you for your honor.

02:54:37.160 --> 02:54:39.660
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is the pleasure of Senator Judge Villanueva?

02:54:41.080 --> 02:55:47.590
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Yes, Mr. Presiding Officer. Just one question, quick question on this particular topic on inciting to sedition, if I may. The gentleman named proceed. Yes. Again, let me ask the witness just to clarify the factual basis for the National Bureau of Investigation's possible inciting to sedition. We recognize, Mr. Witness, yung strong criticism of the President may fall within the realm of what we call protected political speech. It's really a balance and somehow yun yung nagpapa-confuse paminsan. Kailan nagpo-fall into grave threats? Kailan nagpo-fall into inciting to sedition? Pero bilang investigador, ano po yung nakikita ninyo sa mga pahayag at sa surrounding circumstances na naging basihan po ng NBI para tignan ito bilang posibleng inciting?

02:55:51.270 --> 02:56:16.150
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Well, una, kinonsider namin sino yung utterer. So, una, yung utterer, the Vice President, the second highest official of the land. Then, pangalawa, kinonsider namin ano ba yung mga inutter ng Vice President. And then, pangatlo, ano ba yung surrounding circumstances na

02:56:17.810 --> 02:56:22.950
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Like naging reaction ng recipient ng utterances or threats.

02:56:24.510 --> 02:57:52.150
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Nakita namin na kung pwede palang gawin ito ng isa sa pinakamataas na posisyon ng Pilipinas at hindi natin ito ia-address, hindi natin i-reregulate. E pwede na rin po pala itong gawin ng kahit na sino. Remember, Your Honor, Vice President is kinukonsidero natin na model bilang public official. So tinitingnan po natin siya kung ano yung actuations niya sa public, kung ano yung pakikipagrelasyon niya sa ibang public official. So again, Your Honor, nung makikita po namin yan, may effect po eh sa mga tao. Eh kung ang Vice President kayang gawin yan at wala namang nangyari, gawin na rin natin yung iba. Ang iniexplain ko nga kahapon, may pattern, may consistency, and the fact na bold yung mga statement, pupugutan ng ulo, this country will go to hell because the person na nakuha po is hindi marunong maging presidente, yun yung mga factor ho yun, finactorin namin. Pag nakita ito ng taong bayan at walang kilos na ginawa yung gobyerno, parang domino effect po yan, ah pwede na. So sunod-sunod na, alam naman po natin ang nangyayari sa social media.

02:57:53.970 --> 02:58:08.610
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So nakita namin na dangerous ito, alarming siya. So definitely, noong nag-imbestiga ang NBI at nakalap nito lahat ng kinakailangang ebidensiya, iyong findings po namin, kasama po doon iyong inciting to sedition.

02:58:08.810 --> 02:58:17.330
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Is it safe to say na iyong pinaka-core nito is that when it falls under that category na it—

02:58:20.190 --> 02:58:43.880
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Do you use the same methodology as you used doon sa grave threats? For example, iyong four stages na binanggit po ninyo: identification, collection, analysis, legal evaluation. Iyong elements na binanggit ninyo yesterday, iyong factors considered—delivery, literal meaning, nature, relationship to the parties, blah, blah, blah—ito ba?

02:58:43.400 --> 02:58:43.880
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Opo.

02:58:43.880 --> 02:58:50.480
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: kasama po yan sa analysis namin. Ano yung efekto nito sa publiko pag ito yung naging norms na natin? So

02:58:50.480 --> 02:58:53.860
Sen. Joel Villanueva: this is the same, the same na ginamit po ninyo?

02:58:53.960 --> 02:58:54.300
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

02:58:54.460 --> 02:59:08.360
Sen. Joel Villanueva: And last but not the least, Your Honor, Mr. Witness, for purposes of investigating itong inciting to sedition, may we clarify? Because it was, I don't know if Senator Bongo may mention about this. To

02:59:08.550 --> 02:59:10.310
Sen. Joel Villanueva: clarify lang, is it necessary?

02:59:12.230 --> 02:59:12.950
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Is it

02:59:12.950 --> 02:59:13.070
Sen. Joel Villanueva: necessary that

02:59:13.070 --> 02:59:16.760
Sen. Joel Villanueva: someone was actually incited?

02:59:18.280 --> 02:59:31.060
Sen. Joel Villanueva: Yun po ba? Just for purposes of investigating itong inciting to sedition. Is it necessary that someone was actually incited para mag-fall dito?

02:59:31.380 --> 03:00:05.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, ang basis po namin, yung people versus nabong if I'm not mistaken, in order to be seditious yung speeches, It is not necessary na mayroong actual sedisyon. The law also penalizes or punishes those statements na mag-i-encourage to overthrow the government or to steer the people against the government or to disturb the peace of the community. Or to undermine public safety and public order. Thank you for the clarification. Thank you. Thank you,

03:00:05.100 --> 03:00:13.220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sir. Senator Judge Hercito, thereafter, Senator Judge Villar, Mark. What is your pleasure, sir?

03:00:13.760 --> 03:00:34.230
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Yes, thank you, Mr. President, for just one question. You may proceed, sir. Nabanggit mo kanina yung admission against interest. Mali po ba niyong ipaliwanag para maintindihan po ng nakarami? At why did you rely on this if ever ito pong admission against interest?

03:00:34.790 --> 03:00:35.650
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

03:00:37.310 --> 03:00:49.530
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Maalala po natin yung November 2023 yung utterances niya na that she had already contracted a person to kill the President, the First Lady, and the former Speaker and that she instructed to be relentless.

03:00:51.210 --> 03:01:26.340
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Itong utterance una to, instead na i-deny niya which is Definitely, it should be denied kasi that's against her interest. Instead na i-deny niya po iyon, nung November 26 na video, nung tinalong siya openly and in public, kung sinabi niya iyon, nire-iterate pa po niya, Your Honor. In fact, inadmit po niya na oo nga, may kinausap akong tao tungkol dyan. And in fact, sabi niya, may krimen ba? Ano ang nakikita ang

03:01:26.340 --> 03:01:33.990
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: krimen doon sa... May kinausap akong tao na pag namatay ako, patayin mo si BBM, patayin mo si Speaker, patayin mo si Lisa Marcos.

03:01:34.840 --> 03:01:41.860
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Was this, ano, ito pong sinasabing yung admission against interest, was this considered in your investigation?

03:01:42.680 --> 03:02:06.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Kasama po yun. Yun nga yung naging basis namin na aside doon sa atterances niya na no joke, no joke. Kasi mukhang hindi yung no joke no joke sufficient na ba na talagang seryoso siya? Nung makita ko namin yung video na nire-iterate pa niya at nag-admit siya, we concluded na seryoso ang vice-presidente nung in-atter niya yun. Thank

03:02:06.760 --> 03:02:09.480
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: you for your questions, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you,

03:02:09.480 --> 03:02:10.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Senator Judge. Senator

03:02:10.520 --> 03:02:13.280
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Judge Mark Villar, you have two minutes, sir.

03:02:13.950 --> 03:02:17.590
Sen. Mark A. Villar: Thank you. Just a brief question for the witness. You mentioned...

03:02:17.590 --> 03:02:18.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, Your Honor. Thank

03:02:18.550 --> 03:02:29.090
Sen. Mark A. Villar: you. You mentioned earlier that There are many factors that come into play when you decide whether or not to file charges regarding grave thefts.

03:02:29.210 --> 03:02:30.070
Sen. Mark A. Villar: There are many

03:02:30.070 --> 03:02:46.290
Sen. Mark A. Villar: factors in how you decide what constitutes a grave threat. And I wanted to know what weight do you give those factors? Are there certain aspects of a grave threat that you put more importance on? Whether it's the type of threat or who the threat is made to?

03:02:46.870 --> 03:02:50.550
Sen. Mark A. Villar: Does the NBI give more weight to a particular element?

03:02:52.080 --> 03:03:15.290
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. It's a convolution of these factors na kinonsider namin. Una, yung delivery or manner in which the utterances were spoken which is sabi ko nga nasa atmosphere kung saan furious. Atty. J. Magalito, Atty.

03:03:15.230 --> 03:03:36.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Aside from delivery and manner, kinonsider namin iyong literal meaning noong statement, which is, on its face, makikita natin na even before the press conference was held on November 23, 2024—in fact, even before the question was thrown by Princess Maui to the Vice President—the Vice President had already contracted [unclear].

03:03:38.240 --> 03:04:11.300
Sen. Mark A. Villar: What do you give the most weight to? I'm aware that you have different factors that come into play. Is there a specific? Because, binanggit niyo po yung, nabawa, meron kayong two tests for grave threat. Binanggit niyo po kahapon. I just wanted to know, what is the basis for, or if there is a hierarchy in the level, in all these elements? If there is a hierarchy, not what the elements are, but is there a hierarchy when you decide on whether or not to file charges of great threats?

03:04:11.640 --> 03:04:16.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, it's a combination ng lahat po eh, na factor po eh. So

03:04:16.160 --> 03:04:25.630
Sen. Mark A. Villar: nothing is given more weight than, not one, in your past experiences, you've never... Everything is equal, all these factors that you've mentioned.

03:04:26.130 --> 03:04:31.910
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, in this case, yung literal meaning, at the same time yung nature ng instruction.

03:04:31.950 --> 03:04:45.270
Sen. Mark A. Villar: Is it more of the type of the actual threat? If it's a death threat or if it's a, bag-ao, kung sasabi niya, whether it's a threat, is the gravity of the threat a factor or is it who the threat is made to? Yes,

03:04:45.290 --> 03:04:45.930
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor. Something

03:04:45.930 --> 03:04:56.660
Sen. Mark A. Villar: that triggers your investigation more. I mean, is there a factor that you place more weight to? Or that you place more weight to when deciding whether or not to file these charges?

03:04:57.360 --> 03:05:01.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung status ng nagsasabi nun? When

03:05:01.560 --> 03:05:07.020
Sen. Mark A. Villar: you made the decision, I was curious as to what factors did you put the most weight to?

03:05:07.740 --> 03:05:15.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung nature of the instruction as well as yung the fact na may kinausap na siya bago pa man siya tanungin. Yun po yung dalawa na yun, Sir.

03:05:15.240 --> 03:05:28.920
Sen. Mark A. Villar: And these are defined but the... Are these defined in any legal, or is this just purely the discretion of the NBI, or is there a particular definition in the law that would create a hierarchy? I

03:05:28.920 --> 03:05:32.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: would say it satisfies the elements of grade threats, Your Honor.

03:05:32.880 --> 03:05:39.560
Sen. Mark A. Villar: Okay, okay. But it's not necessarily defined in the law. A lot of it is open to interpretation of the NBI.

03:05:40.020 --> 03:05:45.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Based on facts, nakita ho namin. Atty.

03:05:45.630 --> 03:06:09.940
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Papasok ba yung elementong ganito, elementong ganyan, elementong ganon. Nung nagkaroon kami ng findings, nirefero namin sa DOJ, DOJ sir, ito ang findings namin, ano po masasabi nyo? Then nag-issue ho ng certification ng DOJ at ang sabi ng DOJ, certified all of the elements required for the crime charge is complete. So pwede na tayo mag-proceed sa preliminary investigation.

03:06:09.940 --> 03:06:22.680
Sen. Mark A. Villar: Thank you. Importante po kasi na ma-define po natin kuno po yung grave threat, kuno po yung... And I just want to know what latitude does the NBI have in deciding whether or not to file a charge of grave threat.

03:06:22.700 --> 03:06:25.120
Sen. Mark A. Villar: Yes, Your Honor. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you,

03:06:25.120 --> 03:06:27.820
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Mark Villar, counsel for the respondent.

03:06:29.380 --> 03:06:30.660
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Last few

03:06:30.660 --> 03:06:36.400
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: questions, sir. Apologies. Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo, you

03:06:39.960 --> 03:06:42.500
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have no more than two minutes.

03:06:43.020 --> 03:06:48.360
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Thank you. Just one quick question to our witness.

03:06:50.920 --> 03:07:36.970
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: Inciting to sedition po yung kinaso ninyo. Opo. Tama. Pero hindi ba nagboborder ito yung inciting to sedition to propaganda? Kasi po ayon po sa diksyonaryo. Propaganda is a form of communication that aims to shape the people's belief, action, or behavior. Na you say something para udyukan yung tao, para magalit. So nagboborder ito between propaganda and inciting to sedition. What made you say that this is inciting to sedition yung pinagsasabi ni Vice President Sarah Zimmerman Duterte?

03:07:37.640 --> 03:08:11.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor, we consider the elements ng inciting to sedition, one of which is yung whether the speeches disturbs the community. And then in-explain ko na po kanina yung mga comments. At the same time, yung responses ng recipients gaya ng several government agencies and the President himself, as well as the Speaker of the House. And then, Your Honor, whether it would undermine public... Sa safety and in public order which is malinaw dun sa comments at reaction ng ating, Atty.

03:08:13.540 --> 03:08:15.360
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: G. L.

03:08:15.360 --> 03:08:29.660
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Presidential Communications Office. So pinapakita nila doon na alarming yung situation, it's an active threat, at the same time it's a matter of national security,

03:08:29.660 --> 03:08:31.260
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: G. L.

03:08:33.100 --> 03:08:40.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In fact, May classification pa nga yung ibang agency natin na yung kinausap is assassin.

03:08:42.450 --> 03:09:03.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Both the PNP and the PCO. So sila ho nakalampag ho sila itong mga government agency na to doon sa utterances na ginawa ng vicepresidente. So aside from that fact nakikita ho rin namin yung comments from social media platforms na meron ho talagang nabubuong

03:09:05.220 --> 03:09:16.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Magiging kaguluhan. Although sabi ko nga po kanina, yung comments sa mga Facebook at social media platforms, hindi lang namin nakasama sa affidavit of investigation po namin, Your Honor.

03:09:16.900 --> 03:09:18.940
Sen. Erwin Tulfo: All right, thank you. Mr. Wittes.

03:09:19.180 --> 03:09:27.410
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo. Counsel for the respondent, for the continuation of your cross, I heard you say... Last few

03:09:27.410 --> 03:09:28.190
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: questions, Your Honor.

03:09:28.510 --> 03:09:35.560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: After the cross, before we direct, we shall pause for a 15-minute break. Council for the Respondent may proceed.

03:09:37.020 --> 03:09:43.160
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Atty. Lotoc, does a Filipino citizen have the right to express dissatisfaction with our government?

03:09:43.280 --> 03:09:44.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Definitely, sir.

03:09:44.240 --> 03:09:46.260
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: This is part of freedom of speech, correct?

03:09:46.520 --> 03:09:46.900
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

03:09:47.080 --> 03:09:51.840
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And as long as we do not commit an act to overthrow the government, this is allowed, correct?

03:09:52.430 --> 03:09:55.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: It depends, sir, kung magpo-fall siya sa inciting to sedition.

03:09:55.510 --> 03:10:02.170
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: But in that press conference, did VP Sara directly urge the public to overthrow the government?

03:10:02.620 --> 03:10:10.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: There was no such kind of a statement but there was a sort of tendency because of those utterances.

03:10:10.760 --> 03:10:16.700
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. She merely voiced out her personal opinion during the press conference. Opinions during the press conference.

03:10:19.470 --> 03:10:27.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I cannot answer to that, Your Honor. Based doon sa nakahalap namin kung anong nandito.

03:10:28.630 --> 03:10:32.730
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That's okay. So, and just like any other ordinary Filipino,

03:10:33.590 --> 03:10:37.990
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: who has the freedom of speech, she should be allowed to do that, correct?

03:10:38.170 --> 03:10:38.530
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

03:10:40.880 --> 03:10:47.750
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Unless we are under martial law again, she should be able to speak, correct?

03:10:48.600 --> 03:10:52.640
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I cannot speak kung iyong situation na iyan. That's hypothetical, sir.

03:10:52.820 --> 03:10:53.820
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Nothing further, Your Honors.

03:10:54.020 --> 03:10:57.560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, counsel for the respondent. Again, as stated by the Presiding Officer,

03:11:01.090 --> 03:11:03.130
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: wala pa kayong balak mag-break talaga.

03:11:05.530 --> 03:11:16.510
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Soto, let's give way to seniority. Thereafter, Senator Judge Pangilinan. You may

03:11:16.510 --> 03:11:38.950
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: proceed, sir. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. This will be very quick. Haliligaw ako eh. Because I think that even some members of the public that are watching, haliligaw sa discussion of grape threat and exciting decision. Di ba sa regular courts naka-charge yun, Mr. Witness?

03:11:40.210 --> 03:11:50.150
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: As far as I know, as far as the NBI Cybercrime Division is concerned, wala pa ho sa court, Your Honor. Nasa preliminary investigation pa lang ho ng case natin.

03:11:50.250 --> 03:11:52.570
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Pero sa regular courts pina-file yun, di ba? Yes,

03:11:52.570 --> 03:11:53.490
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: po. Ang

03:11:53.490 --> 03:12:07.040
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: naka-file dito sa impeachment court, betrayal of public trust, di ba? Opo, Your Honor. At saka other high crimes. Yes, po, Your Honor. Hindi grave threat at saka inciting to sedition, di ba?

03:12:07.240 --> 03:12:12.040
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: I think yung Article 4 yata may nakalagay doon, Your Honor.

03:12:12.600 --> 03:12:20.460
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Pero hindi yun ang main charge, di ba? Yes, Your Honor. Betrayal Public Trust. Opo. Sige. Kasi naliligaw ako eh. Thank

03:12:20.460 --> 03:12:20.680
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: you, po,

03:12:20.760 --> 03:12:20.880
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Your Honor.

03:12:21.140 --> 03:12:23.400
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Sen. Judge Soto. Sen. Judge Pangilinan?

03:12:23.720 --> 03:12:34.279
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Yes, very quickly lang dahil napag-usapan natin ito since nag-umpisa tayo ng hearing. Yung authenticated video ba ay AI?

03:12:34.279 --> 03:12:35.239
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir.

03:12:35.239 --> 03:12:38.510
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ito ba ay fabricated?

03:12:38.520 --> 03:12:39.279
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir. It's not.

03:12:39.279 --> 03:12:40.680
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Ito ba ay spliced?

03:12:40.680 --> 03:12:41.630
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi po, sir.

03:12:41.240 --> 03:12:48.100
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: So, in other words, yung video ay accurate?

03:12:48.420 --> 03:12:49.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

03:12:49.300 --> 03:13:00.900
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And representation of what happened? Authenticated. Kasi dalawang linggo na nating dinedebate kung ia-admit ba o hindi, o etc., etc. Hindi naman din sinasabi ng...

03:13:01.370 --> 03:13:08.690
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: prosecution na altered or spliced, o iyong defense na altered or spliced. Tama?

03:13:08.690 --> 03:13:09.730
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

03:13:09.730 --> 03:13:11.530
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay. Yes, go ahead.

03:13:11.530 --> 03:13:29.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, obviously, one of the ways to identify whether AI siya o hindi, isa ho doon iyong tinatawag naming visual analysis. Number one, iyong human anatomy anomalies. So, pag iyong merong asymmetrical facial feature,

03:13:29.850 --> 03:13:36.010
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Pag mayroong unnatural positioning of hands, pag mayroong tinatawag na—

03:13:36.010 --> 03:13:54.870
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Magiging 6 o 7 yung daliri, ganun. Pag mayroong... And then kinoconsider din namin yung tinatawag naming temporal artifacts doon sa visual analysis. Meaning kung sa one frame ito ang condition, then pag tinuloy-tuloy mo nang i-play, isan mawawala yung buhok, mawawala yung rilo. So wala akong gano'n na mga circumstances na natin tanahin.

03:13:54.870 --> 03:13:55.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So for the record,

03:13:55.570 --> 03:14:05.510
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: lahat ng mga video na pinakita natin dito sa impeachment court, na pinakita ng defense at ng prosecution, lahat yun authentic? Yes, Your Honor. For the record, no? Yes, Your Honor.

03:14:05.510 --> 03:14:27.500
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Whether the witness or at least both. Okay. Just to put it also on record na dito sa mga sinulat, kasi nung nag-investig kayo, sumagot yung lawyer, di ba? Ni Vice President... Sarah, itong dated Annex

03:14:29.200 --> 03:14:40.980
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: I, sorry. No, Annex J. Yung Annex J, sinasabi, sumagot yung Vice President, ah, yung abogado ng Vice President na our

03:14:42.770 --> 03:15:15.160
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: client vehemently denies Annex K. Having made any threat constituting grave threats under two... Artikel 282 of the Revised Penal Code in relation to so forth and so on. Since your office acknowledges that it has access to publicly available materials on the internet, we are confident that the content and context of the entire press conference subject matter of your investigation will bear this out.

03:15:15.400 --> 03:15:16.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So my

03:15:16.060 --> 03:15:23.030
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: question is, ito ba yung ginamit ninyong video? Yung sinasabi nilang it has...

03:15:23.030 --> 03:15:28.400
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Since your office has access to publicly available material. I

03:15:28.400 --> 03:15:35.420
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: believe so, Your Honor. In fact, yung video na yan is existing up to May 25, 2017.

03:15:35.420 --> 03:15:47.080
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: in other words, kahit ang Vice President's Office referred to the video in your possession as part of yung kanyang clarification and defense.

03:15:47.080 --> 03:15:48.740
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Na hindi grave threats ang nangyari.

03:15:48.840 --> 03:15:49.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

03:15:49.520 --> 03:15:51.740
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Okay, thank you. No other question for this part.

03:15:51.740 --> 03:15:52.800
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Chair Declares.

03:15:54.940 --> 03:16:04.560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Do you want to do that now, Sen. Judge Padilla? Yes, Sen. Judge Padilla would like to interject before we go on a break. You may proceed, sir.

03:16:06.580 --> 03:16:12.060
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maraming salamat po, ginoong Tagapamahala na hukong at sa ating ginoong Pangulo.

03:16:13.690 --> 03:16:16.310
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maari po ba makapagtanong sa ating mahal na saksi?

03:16:16.570 --> 03:16:17.410
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, Your Honor.

03:16:17.630 --> 03:16:50.640
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Maari po. Ang una kong katanungan sana ay tagal saan po kayo na lugar, na probinsya? Tacloban, Sir. Takloban. Takloban City, Sir. Kayo po ngayon ay Regional Director ng NBI sa BARM. Yes, Sir. Opo. Yun po ba ay isang promosyon para sa inyo na madala sa BARM? Dahil... Totoo po ba na kayo ang tinatawag na golden boy ngayon sa NBI?

03:16:51.860 --> 03:16:59.780
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I cannot comment on that po, Your Honor. Kasi po ang... Nasa barm po ako. Wala ako ngayon sa office.

03:17:00.440 --> 03:17:10.110
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Promotion po ba yun? Yung napunta kayo sa barm? Balita ako po kasi ilang beses na kayo na-promote sa NBI. 12

03:17:10.110 --> 03:17:14.350
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: years na po kayo sa NBI. Yes, sir. Ilang beses na po kayo na-promote?

03:17:15.890 --> 03:17:26.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Since na pumasok ko ako sa NBI, from Investigation 1, 2, 3 noong 2015, 2016.

03:17:29.180 --> 03:17:34.880
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, nung mula ako na pumasok ako sa Academy, from Investigation 1 hanggang ngayon sa Regional Director,

03:17:35.180 --> 03:17:36.940
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sir. Ilang beses po yan?

03:17:38.090 --> 03:17:43.870
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Sa isang taon po ah? Sa isang taon? Kailang, anong taon po, Sir, ang tinutukoy niyo?

03:17:44.010 --> 03:17:46.130
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bago po kayo napunta sa BARM.

03:17:46.630 --> 03:17:53.770
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Bago ako napunta sa BARM, regional director po ako ng Mimaropa. Mimaropa. Region 4B, sir. Opo.

03:17:53.870 --> 03:17:57.410
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kayo po ba ang pumili sa BARM? Hindi po, sir. In

03:17:57.410 --> 03:18:04.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: the ex-agency of service, doon po kami nilalagay kung ano ang tingin ng director na makakatulong kami sa bureau.

03:18:04.850 --> 03:18:10.350
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Bakit po kaya naisip ng director na sa BARM po kayo? Kayo po ba ay may kaalaman sa Islam?

03:18:13.780 --> 03:18:18.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi ko po alam kung ano ang naging basis ng direktor pero... Kayo

03:18:18.600 --> 03:18:23.920
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po mismo. Kayo po mismo. Ang barn po kasi is Muslim Mindanao.

03:18:24.620 --> 03:18:25.520
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

03:18:25.820 --> 03:18:27.540
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Meron po kayong kaalaman sa Islam?

03:18:30.070 --> 03:18:32.050
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: In terms of... What

03:18:32.050 --> 03:18:33.710
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: do you mean kaalaman, Sir? Sa

03:18:33.710 --> 03:18:40.210
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: religion po ng Islam kasi Muslim Mindanao. So ibig sabihin kahit basic po siguro ng Islam, no?

03:18:40.980 --> 03:18:46.920
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Kahit naman sino pwedeng i-assign kahit saang regional office dito sa Pilipinas. Ah, di

03:18:46.920 --> 03:19:02.550
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ba po parang autonomy ang autonomous region ng Muslim Mindanao. So, kailangan naman siguro kahit paano merong kayong kaalaman sa Islam. Konti siguro, sir. Ano po yung konti na yan?

03:19:04.260 --> 03:19:13.610
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, isa po akong Kristiyano at hindi ko ho malalaman iyong kabuuan. Siguro—

03:19:13.610 --> 03:19:19.500
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: po dapat meron kayong basic din na knowledge ng Islam. Sa pangalawang

03:19:19.500 --> 03:19:20.980
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: tanong po, okay na po yun. Sa

03:19:20.980 --> 03:19:33.840
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: pangalawang tanong po, meron po ba kayong, sa tagal niyo po sa NBI, 12 years, meron po ba kayong na-encounter na kaso ninyo sa NBI? Kayo po mismo na-file-an ng kaso?

03:19:34.140 --> 03:19:56.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, normal ho sa mga NBI agents na makakasuhan, in fact maging sa sino mang law enforcement agency, that's the price we pay. For doing our job and for protecting the country. As a matter of fact, in the NBI, your honor, we avoid the noise. We just finish the job. So ano po yan? Yes? Yes po yan? Yung sagot niyo? Yes?

03:19:57.130 --> 03:19:58.970
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Normal po yan yun sa amin. So yes po?

03:20:00.770 --> 03:20:02.210
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer the question.

03:20:02.430 --> 03:20:07.430
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Yes, sir. Yes. Ano pong pwede po bang malaman kung ano pong mga naikaso sa inyo?

03:20:07.630 --> 03:20:13.270
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, wala po pong natanggap na official case galing sa ombudsman. Pero may nakita na po akong complaint.

03:20:13.270 --> 03:20:32.610
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: na binigay sa akin from NBI. Hindi ko na humaalala yung sa case na yan. Pero nung chineck po namin yung case na yan, Your Honor, sabi ko doon sa mga kasama ko, tingnan nyo nga yung validity at authenticity ng case na ito. Tinuntahan po namin yung nagnotaryo,

03:20:32.610 --> 03:20:40.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: nagnotaryo, at iyong Makati Court iyon. Iyong Makati Court nag-issue po ng certification na fake iyong notary. Diyan

03:20:40.830 --> 03:21:07.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Diyan sa reklamo na iyan, sabi ko, huwag ninyo nang pansinin. Marami tayong trabaho. Kung fake iyong notaryo na iyan, mere scrap of paper iyan. Huwag na nating pansinin. Although nag-aantay po ako, Your Honor, na mag-notify sa akin ang Ombudsman kasi sasagutin po namin na ito ang nakaalap namin: may dalawang Chinese na nagreklamo. Chineck po namin doon sa BI. Iyong dalawang Chinese na iyan, I think, nine months nang overstaying at pinaghahanap din ng Bureau of Immigration.

03:21:07.670 --> 03:21:08.930
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ano pong kaso po? Yung

03:21:08.930 --> 03:21:10.370
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ipinatong sa inyo, anong kaso?

03:21:10.650 --> 03:21:16.770
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi ko maalala, Your Honor. May mga kaso doon na nakalagay. Wala po kayong

03:21:16.770 --> 03:21:19.330
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: isa kahit maalala na ipinatong sa inyo?

03:21:21.310 --> 03:21:27.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: If I'm not mistaken, arbitrary detention? May unlawful arrest?

03:21:29.900 --> 03:21:39.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Wala ho sa akin ng record kasi nga sabi ko nga nung makita namin na fake yung notary, hindi na ho namin binigyan ng pansin, Your Honor.

03:21:40.350 --> 03:21:42.390
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kasi napaka-kapal po nitong hawak ko.

03:21:44.240 --> 03:21:48.040
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Wala akong problema, Ronald. Sasagutin po namin yan. Hindi

03:21:48.040 --> 03:21:50.860
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: niyo pa po nasagot magmula nung February 29.

03:21:51.300 --> 03:21:54.820
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kasi wala pa akong official notice galing sa kung anong ahensya.

03:21:55.440 --> 03:21:56.660
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Nakarating po sa inyo, wala pa?

03:21:56.760 --> 03:22:11.390
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Wala pa po. Ang nakuha ko lang, yung kopya niyan, siguro may nagpadala sa akin. Sabi ko, teka muna, wala akong official na nare-receive sa OMB. So, nung check-in ko namin, If the case exists, if the notary is fake,

03:22:11.390 --> 03:22:12.010
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: we don't have

03:22:12.010 --> 03:22:15.230
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: to So, ibig nyo pong sabihin hanggang ngayon, hindi kayo sigurado kung nag-i-exist

03:22:16.650 --> 03:22:19.390
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Dapat may notice na ako from Umbudsman. Di ba

03:22:19.390 --> 03:22:23.170
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: ba po dapat ang reaction ng isang tao kapag may kaso, harapin?

03:22:24.680 --> 03:22:29.460
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Precisely, Your Honor. Hinihintay ko nga po iyong notice from the Ombudsman.

03:22:29.460 --> 03:22:31.500
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Wala po kayong notice hanggang ngayon?

03:22:31.500 --> 03:22:39.260
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Wala pa po, Your Honor. Iyon nga ang inaantay ko kasi sasagutin namin, kasi meron po kaming certification na fake iyong notary.

03:22:40.180 --> 03:22:46.480
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Inaantay ko po, Your Honor. Mas maganda po, maharap niyo kagad. Definitely, di na namin tatakbuhan

03:22:46.480 --> 03:22:46.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: yan, Sir.

03:22:47.000 --> 03:22:49.060
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kasi napakahalaga po ngayon nito.

03:22:49.260 --> 03:22:50.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Sir.

03:22:50.360 --> 03:23:06.420
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ito po ay ang pinag-uusapan natin dito ay napakahalaga. Yes, Sir. Opo, at ito pong mga kasong ipinatong sa inyo, perjury, robbery, extortion, theft, mainam po ito.

03:23:06.970 --> 03:23:11.570
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: As I've said, Your Honor, in the NBI, we avoid the noise. We just finish the job, sir. Opo.

03:23:11.670 --> 03:23:29.090
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Meron po po akong tanong. Pangatlo. Opo. Kanina po na ang ganda nung talakayan nyo tungkol sa Romanub. Yes, sir. Opo. Alam niyo po ba yung istorya nung Romanub? At ang gaganda po ng mga sagutan ninyo... Alam niyo po ba yung historical background ng Romanov? Ang

03:23:29.090 --> 03:23:35.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: alam ko lang po, John, Your Honor, yun yung nangyari sa, I think, Tsar, kung hindi ako nagkakamali, sa Russia. Sa Russia,

03:23:35.650 --> 03:23:37.670
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: opo. Sino po ba yung nakakalaban ng Tsar?

03:23:39.020 --> 03:23:42.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, hindi ko po maalala. Hindi ko po nakita yung buong... Ah, iyon.

03:23:42.720 --> 03:24:21.380
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kasi napakahalaga po malaman ng taong bayan kung sino po ang tinatawag natin na Romanov at sino yung nakakalaban nila. Kasi po, katabi ko ang isa sa Marcos family, Yes, sir. Alam naman po natin lahat, batid natin lahat, na si Apu Lacay, Ferdinand Marcos Sr., ang number one na lumaban sa komunista dito sa Pilipinas. Batid naman din po natin na ang nag-execute sa Czar, kay Nicolay at sa kanyang mga anak, sa kanyang pamilya ay ang komunista. Alam mo po ba niyo? Yes, sir.

03:24:23.100 --> 03:24:27.320
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ngayon, sino po ba ang pangalawang Pangulo na lumaban sa komunista?

03:24:30.450 --> 03:24:34.710
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sino po, sir? Ay, di si Pangulong Rodrigo Roja Duterte.

03:24:37.110 --> 03:24:54.700
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Hindi ba po dapat isipin natin yung Romanog ay tungkol sa threat na pumapasok sa mga pamilya na mga namumuno dito sa ating bayan na lumalaban sa komunista? Komunista po ako, ah. Gusto ko lamang pong alamin ninyo. Yes, sir.

03:24:55.340 --> 03:25:08.980
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, and so far as the investigation on the issue of whether or not may Romanov or operation of Romanov, ang sabi ko po kanina, nasa intelligence service po namin yan, at I think ang makakasagot po niyan, your honor, yung director po namin. Opo,

03:25:09.040 --> 03:25:39.070
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: kasi nabanggit niyo kanina sa usapan po ninyo, si Baste, na sinasabi niyo po kasi kanina sa usapan po ninyo, sa napakagandang usapan, na yung Romanov hindi na ipapaliwanag kasi kung... Ano ba yung ugat nun? Napakahalaga po na alam natin yung ugat. Si Presidente Marcos Sr. ang lumaban sa komunista kaya nagkaroon ng threat noong 1986.

03:25:41.050 --> 03:25:52.700
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ngayon, sinasabi ni Bastet na nagkakaroon ng threat sa kanilang pamilya sapangkat alam naman nating lahat na ang nagpatuloy.

03:25:54.670 --> 03:26:04.970
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Nang paglaban sa komunista, pagkatapos ni Pangulong Rodrigo Roa Duterte, ay si Inday Sara Duterte ang ating Vice President. Sumasang-ayon po ba kayo doon?

03:26:05.930 --> 03:26:07.790
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Wala po akong personal knowledge, sir.

03:26:07.910 --> 03:26:19.050
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ay, bakit po kayo walang personal knowledge? Eh, yun po ang sumunod na assignment ng ating DC Presidente pagkaupo niya. Siya po ang nag-takeover ng NTFL. Kak! Hindi po alam ng NBI yun.

03:26:20.480 --> 03:26:33.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well... Nag-NTFL kak siya, pero yung factual circumstances doon... Factual? Wala po po akong... Wala po kayong... Pero

03:26:33.030 --> 03:26:37.030
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: alam niyo po, sagutin na lang po ninyo na siya ang nag-takeover ng NTFL kak.

03:26:37.090 --> 03:26:38.350
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

03:26:38.630 --> 03:26:49.880
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Opo. Isa na lang po ginaong tagapamahal ng hukum. Sabi niyo po kanina, uliting ko lang po, gusto ko lang pong malaman uli.

03:26:51.590 --> 03:26:55.950
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Inamin niyo po na wala kayong personal knowledge tungkol dun sa threat ng Pangulo.

03:26:57.530 --> 03:27:06.390
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sabi niyo po kanina, wala kayong personal knowledge na kumuha na ng assassin o papatay sa Pangulo, ang pangalawang Pangulo.

03:27:07.970 --> 03:27:09.670
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: During that time,

03:27:11.990 --> 03:27:14.270
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: ongoing ang validation namin.

03:27:14.350 --> 03:27:18.350
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Ibig ninyong sabihin, ngayon meron na kayong personal knowledge?

03:27:18.350 --> 03:27:26.010
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi po, ongoing po ang validation at, sabi ko nga po, ang makakasagot po niyan iyong intelligence service namin at ang director po namin, sir. So—

03:27:26.010 --> 03:27:28.050
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: hanggang ngayon po, wala pa kayong personal knowledge?

03:27:28.390 --> 03:27:33.730
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In so far as the cybercrime division is concerned back then, ongoing po ang validation. Yes or

03:27:33.730 --> 03:27:36.670
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: no po, ngayon po, ngayon po, Sir. Mahal naming saksi, ngayon po.

03:27:37.200 --> 03:27:42.920
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kung ako tatanungin, wala pa po akong idea pero baka meron ang intelligence service o ang director po naman. Atty. Loto,

03:27:43.040 --> 03:27:48.760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer the question directly. It's answered by yes or no, and I think you know the answer.

03:27:50.340 --> 03:27:55.180
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ako personally wala pa po, sir. Yun lang po. Maraming salamat po. Mahalo sa aksi. Thank you, sir.

03:27:55.440 --> 03:28:09.060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Sen. Judge Padilla. Chair declares a 15-minute recess. We shall resume at 5.38. At exactly 5.38. Trial is on short recess.

03:44:54.800 --> 03:45:04.900
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, you are still testifying and you will be on redirect by counsel for the prosecutors. You are going to testify still under the same oath?

03:45:04.900 --> 03:45:05.340
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

03:45:05.500 --> 03:45:17.160
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That you took yesterday. Chair notes that the witness understands that he is under the same oath. Counsel for the prosecutors, Atty. Ligutan, you may proceed with your redirect if you have any.

03:45:17.500 --> 03:45:22.980
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Thank you so much, Your Honor, please. Again, good afternoon, Atty. Lotoc.

03:45:23.160 --> 03:45:42.840
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Atty. Lotoc, the defense showed you a video where President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. mentioned that he is open to reconciliation with the Dutertes, correct?

03:45:42.840 --> 03:45:44.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

03:45:44.080 --> 03:45:50.360
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: And if you know, when did that event—the interview—happen?

03:45:51.280 --> 03:46:02.050
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In your investigation,

03:46:02.470 --> 03:46:24.340
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Atty. Lotoc, you mentioned during the recs that you considered the statements of the president. Do you remember that? Yes, sir. And do you also remember that you considered A video of the president giving his statement.

03:46:24.740 --> 03:46:25.500
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection leading.

03:46:26.220 --> 03:46:27.760
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, these are preliminary

03:46:27.760 --> 03:46:31.240
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: questions. This is just based on his direct examination. This is already

03:46:31.240 --> 03:46:32.520
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: redirect, Your Honor.

03:46:32.720 --> 03:46:37.680
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: I know. Preliminary question is allowed. Reform Council. Okay, now.

03:46:40.510 --> 03:46:54.040
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: You mentioned in your direct examination of a video where the president gave his reaction. Atty.

03:46:53.840 --> 03:46:55.700
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: to the threats of the President?

03:46:55.700 --> 03:46:56.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

03:46:56.620 --> 03:47:02.950
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now, if shown a copy of the video, will you be able to identify the same?

03:47:02.950 --> 03:47:03.710
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

03:47:03.710 --> 03:47:21.040
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now, Your Honor, I move that the same video, marked as Exhibit P-Roman Numeral IV-13, be played for consideration of the witness and the Court.

03:47:22.500 --> 03:47:24.640
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So directed.

03:47:26.550 --> 03:47:29.380
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is it in a USB? Is that in the USB? Yes,

03:47:29.380 --> 03:47:29.640
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor.

03:47:29.800 --> 03:47:31.780
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So you will again have to break the seal?

03:47:32.280 --> 03:47:33.020
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Yes, Your Honor.

03:47:35.060 --> 03:47:41.000
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Mr. Witness, kindly break the seal.

03:47:41.000 --> 03:47:42.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

03:47:42.100 --> 03:47:47.880
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In front of the assisting counsels for both the prosecutor and the respondent.

03:47:57.200 --> 03:47:59.060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, do you know the time stamp?

03:48:02.540 --> 03:48:07.180
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: We will be showing only the first half of the video, Your Honor.

03:48:07.300 --> 03:48:09.220
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: It's not too lengthy, Your Honor, please.

03:49:39.840 --> 03:50:07.930
President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.: Nakakabahala ang mga pahayag na narinig natin nitong mga nakaraang araw. Nandiyan ang walang pakundangang pagmumura at ang pagbabanta ng planong ipapatay ang ilan sa atin. Kung ganun na lang kadali ang pagplano sa pagpatay ng isang Presidente, papaano pa kaya ang mga pangkaraniwan na mamamayan? Yang ganyang kriminal na pagtatangka ay hindi dapat pinapalampas. Yan ay aking papalagan.

03:50:07.930 --> 03:50:14.850
President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.: As a democratic country we need to uphold the rule of law.

03:50:14.850 --> 03:50:42.030
President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.: Ako, bilang pinuno ng executive department, at lahat ng mga nanunungkulan sa pamahalaan, ay may sinumpaang tungkulin na tutupdin at pangangalagaan ang Konstitusyon at ang ating mga batas. Kaya hindi tama ang pagpigil sa mga halal ng bayan sa paghahanap ng katotohanan. Hindi na sana hahantong sa ganitong drama kung sasagutin lamang ang mga lehitimong katanungan sa Senado at sa House of Representatives.

03:50:47.340 --> 03:50:53.380
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The tech is instructed to kindly pause and cease the playing of the video.

03:50:54.200 --> 03:50:55.280
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: May I proceed, Your Honor?

03:50:55.520 --> 03:50:56.220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, sir.

03:50:56.400 --> 03:51:10.040
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Atty. Lotoc, again, when did the press conference, the online press conference of the vice president happen where she uttered that she already contracted a person to kill the president, for example? Objection,

03:51:10.040 --> 03:51:17.320
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. It's misleading, Your Honor. Why? She never mentioned that there was a contract to begin with.

03:51:19.180 --> 03:51:22.380
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Reform Council.

03:51:23.110 --> 03:51:31.910
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Where, if I may, Your Honor, where the Vice President stated that she already contracted a person to kill the President?

03:51:31.910 --> 03:51:35.950
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. The Vice President never said the word contracted.

03:51:36.570 --> 03:51:39.250
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: November 23,

03:51:39.690 --> 03:51:40.770
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2024, sir.

03:51:40.970 --> 03:51:54.150
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now, November 23, 2024. Now, if you know, if you know, when did the President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. issue That statement through the video that was shown

03:51:54.150 --> 03:52:02.830
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: a while ago. If I'm not mistaken, I think November 24 or 25. Of what year? 2024,

03:52:03.210 --> 03:52:07.530
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: sir. So one or two days after the threats were made, correct? Yes, sir.

03:52:08.020 --> 03:52:20.470
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay, now. You also mentioned earlier, in fact, I remember that, that instead of denying the threat, Objection, your honor. Wait, wait, I'm not yet done.

03:52:20.470 --> 03:52:21.110
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection on the

03:52:21.110 --> 03:52:24.370
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: use of the word threat, your honor. Kindly let him finish his

03:52:24.370 --> 03:52:25.170
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: question, counsel.

03:52:29.050 --> 03:52:31.150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel for the prosecutor, finish your question. Yes, your honor,

03:52:31.170 --> 03:52:50.920
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: yes, your honor. The question now is, you said that instead of denying her statement that she already spoke to a person to kill the president and the two others, you said that the vice president did not deny that. Do you remember that?

03:52:51.020 --> 03:52:51.440
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your

03:52:51.440 --> 03:52:54.880
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Honor, leading. Your Honor, that's just the basis, Your Honor. I mean, in fact...

03:52:54.880 --> 03:52:55.720
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer.

03:52:56.440 --> 03:53:07.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor, based on the video dated November 26, 2024. A video dated what? November 26, 2024, Your Honor. Your

03:53:07.160 --> 03:53:18.460
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Honor, at this juncture, we move that that video be presented again, but this time with a limited timestamp, Your Honor, please. And for the record, the same is marked as Exhibit P-4...

03:53:20.460 --> 03:53:30.530
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: It is sealed. I move that the defense may also observe the

03:53:32.100 --> 03:53:36.640
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: unsealing of such document. Let

03:53:36.640 --> 03:53:50.360
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: the witness be the one to unseal it in full view of councils for both parties. Thereafter, take as instructed to kindly play. The time stamp to be identified by the counsel for the prosecutors. And

03:53:50.360 --> 03:53:58.590
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: the time stamp is 10 minutes to 40 seconds to 11 minutes 50 seconds.

03:53:59.090 --> 03:54:12.530
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: For the record, assisting counsel for the prosecutor accompanied by assisting counsel for the respondent are

03:54:14.060 --> 03:54:16.560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: bringing the USB to the tech booth to be played.

03:55:10.270 --> 03:55:13.110
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: And then I was asked during a press briefing.

03:55:15.050 --> 03:55:16.170
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: By a

03:55:16.170 --> 03:55:42.320
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: media person, if I know of these plans, if you can say the word, if that is the correct word to use here, plans. So I answered, I was asked, Romanov, and then I answered, I was told by two people, this is the first time I've heard of Romanov, so that is the third already, and I said, don't worry about my security.

03:55:43.870 --> 03:56:15.480
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: If they kill me, if I die, kapag pinatay ako or kapag namatay ako, in the context of don't worry about my security. So this means, pinatay ka. Diba? Kasi hindi ka naman mamamatay by heart attack in relation to your security. Diba? So, pag namatay ako, I already asked a person to take revenge.

03:56:17.040 --> 03:56:19.160
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: against three individuals.

03:56:23.060 --> 03:56:33.130
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Pause now. Mr. Witness, when did this event where the Vice President uttered those statements happen?

03:56:34.180 --> 03:56:46.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor, November 26, 2024. That is three days after she uttered in that November 23 press conference that she already spoke to a person, and the person said yes.

03:56:47.070 --> 03:57:08.030
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Yes, the President and the two others. Now, Mr. Witness, what is your impression, if any, as to the emotional state of the vice president when she confirmed that, in fact, she uttered those threats?

03:57:08.370 --> 03:57:10.590
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. The witness is incompetent to answer.

03:57:10.710 --> 03:57:54.760
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, I invoke Rule 130, Section 53 of the Rules of Courts. If I may read. Opinion of ordinary witnesses. General rule not allowed. But I think if we read the exception to order, it says the witness may testify, however, on his impressions of the emotion, behavior, condition, or appearance of a person. Section 53, Rule 130. The question I just posed, as to his impression, as to the emotional state of the vice president when she uttered those confirmation threats. It's in the rules, Your Honor. Comment,

03:57:54.780 --> 03:58:04.440
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor. Comment. Your Honor, the rules provide that the person should be sufficiently acquainted, Your Honor. Oh, no. And that is not the case here, so such rule does not apply. Your

03:58:04.440 --> 03:58:06.600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Honor. Overruled. Witness may answer if he

03:58:06.600 --> 03:58:08.600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: if you know. Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer if you know.

03:58:08.640 --> 03:58:09.840
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: kindly answer if you know.

03:58:10.080 --> 03:58:20.230
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Yes, Your Honor. What is the emotional state of the vice president three days after November 23 when she confirmed that she uttered those statements?

03:58:20.930 --> 03:58:37.330
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor, when we tried to connect that in the November 23, 2024 event and the November 26, 2024 utterances, it shows that the vice president did not joke

03:58:37.330 --> 03:58:42.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: when she uttered those statements.

03:58:42.840 --> 03:58:58.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: At the same time, iyong pagiging furious niya at iyong pagiging fuming mad noong November 23, dala pa niya hanggang doon sa November 26, kasi ni-reiterate po niya, Your Honor, at in-admit po niya na meron siyang kinausap na tao to take revenge.

03:58:58.800 --> 03:59:01.880
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: So she admitted again, three days after?

03:59:01.880 --> 03:59:04.340
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered.

03:59:04.340 --> 03:59:06.520
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: All right. Let me proceed, Your Honor, please.

03:59:08.190 --> 03:59:29.220
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Mr. Witness, earlier it was pointed out by the defense that now that line where the vice president said that she spoke to a person and the person said yes to kill the president and the two others, that was just in response. To a question by a certain Princess Maui. Do

03:59:29.220 --> 03:59:30.080
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: you remember that? These

03:59:30.080 --> 03:59:33.140
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: are just preliminary questions. This

03:59:33.140 --> 03:59:35.420
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: is the purpose of redirect. Let's

03:59:35.420 --> 03:59:41.000
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: move on. Let's move on, Councils. We all know what we're talking about here. Witness may answer.

03:59:41.920 --> 03:59:51.630
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Did you consider that statement, that fact that it was only in response to Princess Maui's statement? If any, if at all.

03:59:51.930 --> 03:59:52.630
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Objection leading.

03:59:54.150 --> 03:59:55.350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer.

03:59:56.970 --> 03:59:58.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, I don't think so, Your Honor.

04:00:00.180 --> 04:00:14.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung nature ng Atty. Frances, may kinausap na ako ma'am, wag kang mag-alala. So ibig sabihin, even before the questions was asked, may kinausap na ako ang vice-presidente base doon sa Atty. Frances niya.

04:00:14.200 --> 04:00:22.280
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Again, what is the significance, if any, and if you know, and if at all, that fact to your investigation?

04:00:23.730 --> 04:00:27.090
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, it's very much significant because

04:00:28.620 --> 04:00:39.660
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: We were able to determine the risk intent on the part of the vice president. The vice president is determined and so far as that statement is concerned.

04:00:41.780 --> 04:00:58.780
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: At the same time, the utterances were not the product of a temporary fit of anger or spur of the moment. In other words,

04:00:58.620 --> 04:01:01.580
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: the threat was real, was serious, Your Honor.

04:01:01.920 --> 04:01:20.160
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: You remember during cross-examination yesterday, the good counsel for the defense presented you with a diagram, using their props, that the NBI is under the DOJ. Remember that?

04:01:20.160 --> 04:01:20.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:01:20.500 --> 04:01:22.640
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: And that the DOJ is under the—

04:01:24.400 --> 04:01:43.910
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now, the NPS under the DOJ and the DOJ is under the President, correct? Yes, sir. In fact, you were asked point-blank whether the President, if they refer to the President as BBM, I would like to refer to our President as President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. You were asked if he intervened. Do you remember that?

04:01:44.210 --> 04:01:44.570
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:01:46.900 --> 04:01:51.200
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Did he, in fact, intervene—the President—in your investigation?

04:01:51.200 --> 04:01:58.000
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. Leading.

04:01:58.000 --> 04:01:58.680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: If you know, the witness may answer.

04:01:59.320 --> 04:02:00.420
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Not at all, sir.

04:02:01.670 --> 04:02:04.090
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: What would you say that not at all?

04:02:05.520 --> 04:02:19.320
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, wala hong dumating sa akin na any information or any direction or any directive even from the director na nakipag-communicate ang presidente sa NBI during that time na nag-iimbestiga kami.

04:02:19.640 --> 04:02:32.000
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: If you know, what is the basis of your findings? In filing the cases for grave threats and inciting to the sedition against the Vice President, if you know. I'm not sure what

04:02:32.000 --> 04:02:32.540
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: is the...

04:02:32.540 --> 04:02:34.980
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Basis of your findings. Objection,

04:02:34.980 --> 04:02:35.280
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Vague?

04:02:37.120 --> 04:02:38.220
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Objection, there's an objection.

04:02:39.740 --> 04:02:53.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Basis of the findings? Well, as I have explained that, Your Honor, there were several factors that we considered before we come up with a conclusion. Yung una nga,

04:02:53.040 --> 04:03:13.430
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: iyong manner of delivery, or the manner in which the utterances were spoken; and then the literal meaning of the statement—in-explain ko na rin ho iyan; and then the nature of the instruction na relentless: 'Huwag kang tumigil hangga't hindi mo mapapatay sila.'

04:03:14.270 --> 04:03:19.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: As well as the relationship between the parties involved, meaning the Vice President and the President, Your Honor.

04:03:19.470 --> 04:03:21.510
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Thank you so much. Now, earlier,

04:03:21.710 --> 04:03:43.650
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The counsel for the defense, in their argument that it was merely an exercise of the freedom of expression of the Vice President when she uttered that, said that the Vice President is an ordinary citizen. Do you remember that? Objection, leading. I think

04:03:43.650 --> 04:03:44.150
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: so, Your Honor. Your

04:03:44.150 --> 04:03:47.810
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Honor, again, this is the purpose of the Directs.

04:03:48.050 --> 04:03:48.830
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:03:49.260 --> 04:03:53.160
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Do you agree with that? That the Vice President is an ordinary individual?

04:03:53.620 --> 04:03:58.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Definitely not, Your Honor. The Vice President is the second highest official of the land, sir.

04:03:58.280 --> 04:04:01.080
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay. Now, let's proceed.

04:04:02.980 --> 04:04:20.740
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Mr. Witness, yesterday, the defense devoted more than two hours in pointing, for example, number one, an alleged discrepancy in the subpoena.

04:04:22.320 --> 04:04:40.400
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay. Dated November 6, 2024. And according to the defense, the NBI supposedly started its investigation on November 23. But there was already a subpoena dated November 6. Do you remember that?

04:04:41.020 --> 04:04:41.840
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:04:42.240 --> 04:04:47.130
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Mr. Witness, how do you characterize this error, if

04:04:47.130 --> 04:04:50.470
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: at all? Typo, sir. Typographical error, sir.

04:04:50.510 --> 04:04:53.560
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Typographical. Para maintindihan ng ating mga kababayan.

04:04:53.800 --> 04:05:01.150
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Atty. Lotoc, ano ba ibig sabihin, kung alam mo, ng isang

04:05:01.110 --> 04:05:03.190
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: typographical error?

04:05:03.190 --> 04:05:20.960
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, basically, hindi ito substantial insofar as the document is concerned. Ito ho iyong may, for instance, maling spelling o nagkamali lang ng date. Then, pag makita mo naman doon sa surrounding circumstances, ito naman ang tinutukoy na date.

04:05:21.260 --> 04:05:24.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Gaya ng mga case numbers.

04:05:26.270 --> 04:05:43.290
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Case numbers. Now, what effect, if any, did this typographical error have on the statement of the vice president threatening the president and the two others? What's the effect, if any, of

04:05:43.290 --> 04:05:50.090
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: these errors? They don't have any effect at all insofar as the findings of the NBI is concerned. Why

04:05:50.090 --> 04:05:50.490
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: is that?

04:05:51.260 --> 04:06:14.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, because those typographical errors does not alter the fact that the video exists. It does not alter the fact that the Vice President uttered those statements. And it does not alter the fact that the findings of the NBI is that the Vice President committed the crime of great threats and inciting to sedition. Okay, now.

04:06:17.210 --> 04:06:38.550
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The defense also mentioned that there is a lack of signature of Atty. Ria Asuncion on one of the several minutes of the interview, this time with a certain Jason Rubrico of SM&I. How do you characterize that error again, if you know? Typo error. What

04:06:38.550 --> 04:06:48.010
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: effect, if any, does that typo error have on the statements? At the vice president threatening the president and the two

04:06:48.010 --> 04:07:04.930
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: others. Again, sir, hindi ho nabago yung utterances ng vice presidente. Hindi rin ho nabago yung video. Hindi rin ho nabago yung findings namin na indeed kumpleto yung mga ebidensya at ang presidente ay nag-commit ng crime of great threats and inciting to sedition.

04:07:05.250 --> 04:07:13.060
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay, third point. What about the alleged discrepancy in docket numbers? How do you characterize

04:07:13.060 --> 04:07:28.090
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: that error? Objection, Your Honor. The witness already testified during cross-examination that he was not privy to the assignment of docket numbers as that is the function of the DOJ. So he won't be in court. Atty.

04:07:28.730 --> 04:07:36.150
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your Honor, I do remember. Despite that, counsel asked several questions after that, and the witness was able to answer those questions.

04:07:36.330 --> 04:07:41.890
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Your Honor, he mentioned that he does not have personal knowledge.

04:07:42.150 --> 04:07:50.990
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Counsel, if he gives a different answer, then you can address that in your recross. Witness may answer.

04:07:52.970 --> 04:07:57.910
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: This discrepancy in the docket numbers, how do you characterize this error?

04:07:58.450 --> 04:07:59.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor—

04:07:59.600 --> 04:08:05.210
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. He won't be competent to answer that because docket numbers are assigned by the DOJ, not by the NBI.

04:08:05.310 --> 04:08:12.530
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: that's the point. Again, counsel, let him answer. If he answers that he's not competent, then that's his answer. Witness may answer.

04:08:13.130 --> 04:08:19.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, kung docket number lang ho ang pag-uusapan, hindi ho nawala yung existence ng video.

04:08:23.430 --> 04:08:25.690
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi rin ho nabago na ang Vice President ay nagsalita na meron na siyang kinausap na tao.

04:08:25.830 --> 04:08:30.150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: your answer is not responsive though. Kindly answer the question of the council.

04:08:30.810 --> 04:08:48.370
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay, how do you characterize that error? Typographical error. Okay, next question. What effect, if any, does that typographical error have on the statements of the Vice President threatening the President Ferdinand Marcos Jr., His Excellency, and the two others?

04:08:48.880 --> 04:08:53.580
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No effect at all, Your Honor. Hindi ko na-alter yung utterances ng Vice Presidente. Okay, now,

04:08:53.700 --> 04:09:22.020
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: let's go to the affidavits of investigation which the Good Counsel mentioned in yesterday's cross-examination. During your cross-examination, you were asked questions concerning the January 30, 2025 affidavit of investigation. After that, affidavit was admitted. Now, the question is, what action, if any, Did the Department of Justice take, and if

04:09:22.020 --> 04:09:47.720
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: you know? The Department of Justice evaluated the referral by the NBI. And then after evaluation, nag-issue po sila ng certification na kulang pa, insufficient yung inyong sinubmit. So dapat i-comply niya muna itong mga requirements na to. So nagbigay po sila ng, I think seven po ang nandoon. Yung po ang ginawa ng Department of Justice.

04:09:47.860 --> 04:09:54.900
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Alright. Now, what did the NBI do, if any, in response to that recommendation from the DOJ? The

04:09:54.900 --> 04:10:17.680
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: NBI complied the requirements of the Department of Justice. And as a matter of fact, nung na-comply na ho namin, the DOJ issued a certification stating to the effect You have complied all the elements of the crime charge and you are now good for preliminary investigation, sir. In

04:10:17.680 --> 04:10:23.620
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: fact, you also remember yesterday that you mentioned that the NBI also submitted a letter to DOJ. Do you remember that?

04:10:23.820 --> 04:10:24.200
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:10:24.200 --> 04:10:30.760
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Why did the NBI submit a letter to the DOJ, if you know?

04:10:31.120 --> 04:11:25.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, I think that letter was signed by the then Director Jaime Lee Santiago. And the then Director was notifying the Department of Justice that the NBI has already complied with all the requirements and that the NBI is now submitting its affidavit with all the requirements attached therein and with explanation specifically yung requirement na kailangan may complaint ang recipient gaya ng Presidente. Ang explanation doon sa letter na yon na for purposes of preliminary investigation under the new NPS rules, hindi ko kailangan yung complainant himself, kundi pwede ang law enforcement agency kaya ng NBI na mag-file na complaint. Again, for purposes of preliminary investigation.

04:11:25.740 --> 04:11:54.850
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Atty. Lotoc, if shown a copy of that letter of former Director Santiago, will you be able to identify the same? Yes, sir. Now, we are now in the process through Atty. Steven Magallon of Saligalo, showing you a copy of a letter dated February 11, 2025. We invite the defense to also peruse the same. Yes, sir. Also, assisted by a lawyer also from Cebu. What relation, if any, does this document have with the one you mentioned?

04:11:55.190 --> 04:11:56.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: The same docs that I mentioned, sir.

04:11:57.070 --> 04:12:17.930
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Your honors, at this juncture we move that the letter dated February 11, 2025 by Director Santiago identified by the witness where the NBI informed the DOJ that it already complied with all the requirements. Be marked as exhibit P-Roman numeral 4-34 for the prosecution.

04:12:18.620 --> 04:12:20.740
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: This is not yet premarked, counsel. Not

04:12:20.740 --> 04:12:25.940
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: yet premarked. Introduced in response to the cross-examination by the defense.

04:12:25.940 --> 04:12:27.800
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Comment from the counsel for respondent.

04:12:30.740 --> 04:12:33.360
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We do not object. No comment.

04:12:33.360 --> 04:12:40.100
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: do not object, Your Honor. Just a photocopy, Your Honor. The comment is that the document is a photocopy. That's what

04:12:40.100 --> 04:12:40.480
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: I was

04:12:40.480 --> 04:12:40.960
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: waiting for.

04:12:41.880 --> 04:12:43.060
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Counsel may proceed.

04:12:43.320 --> 04:12:49.160
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Right on cue, we have a certified true copy of the same. We invite the defense.

04:12:50.200 --> 04:12:53.820
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Assisting counsel for the respondent, kindly confirm.

04:13:18.820 --> 04:13:21.860
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: May we have a stipulation from the defense?

04:13:25.010 --> 04:13:36.390
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is the photocopy a faithful reproduction of the original or certified true copy presented by the assisting counsel for the prosecutor?

04:13:38.390 --> 04:13:40.570
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: For the record, Your Honor, it's a photocopy.

04:13:41.530 --> 04:13:44.150
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is it a certified true copy, counsel?

04:13:44.860 --> 04:13:46.520
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: It is a certified true copy.

04:13:47.420 --> 04:13:57.020
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Compared with a photocopy, so we are moving for a stipulation that the photocopy is a faithful reproduction of the certified true copy of the same document.

04:13:57.340 --> 04:13:58.920
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Same manifestation, Your Honor.

04:13:59.140 --> 04:13:59.920
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted.

04:13:59.920 --> 04:14:13.850
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: All right. Now, Mr. Witness, which part of the attached letter did the NBI explain that no law requires the offended party to execute a complaint to conduct preliminary investigation for grave threats?

04:14:13.850 --> 04:14:45.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think... First page, the last paragraph, which says: It is to be emphasized that under the 2024 New Rules on Preliminary Investigation and Inquest Proceedings, a law enforcement agency like the NBI can file a complaint for the purpose of preliminary investigation unless the crime to be filed falls under Section 5, Rule 110 of the Rules of Criminal Procedure.

04:14:47.150 --> 04:14:51.160
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay. Thank you so much. May proceed, Your Honor?

04:14:51.400 --> 04:14:52.240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, Counsel.

04:14:52.240 --> 04:15:39.170
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Mr. Witness, you were asked whether the NBI already identified the particular individual contracted by the President, sorry, by the respondent, the Vice President, to kill the President and the two others. Okay? Do you remember that? Yes, sir. Now, to clarify, for the record, what investigation, if any, did your own? Your own NBI Cybercrime Division conducts on this matter, if any, if you know. Again, again, sir. Okay. You were asked whether the NBI already identified the particular individual contracted by the respondent to kill the president and the two others. And you said you remember

04:15:39.170 --> 04:15:43.190
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: that. Objection, Your Honor, on the use of the word contracted. We never said contracted.

04:15:43.550 --> 04:15:44.450
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Reform Council.

04:15:45.920 --> 04:15:56.000
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The Vice President already spoke to a person to kill the President and that person said, yes, so that's a contract. Now, do you remember that? Yes, sir.

04:15:56.140 --> 04:16:01.560
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, it's a conclusion of law made by the Council for the Prosecution. Witness

04:16:01.560 --> 04:16:29.330
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: may answer. Alright, now, to clarify, sorry, this is now the question, Atty. Lotoc, to clarify for the record, what investigation? Did your own NBI Cybercrime Division conduct on the identity of this person that said yes to the order of the Vice President to kill the President and two others?

04:16:29.730 --> 04:16:47.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Again, the reason why we sent a letter dated December 2, 2024 to the Vice President is for that purpose. We informed the Vice President that we are also investigating the alleged threats against her life.

04:16:50.430 --> 04:18:09.220
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Unfortunately, hindi siya nag-appear. So wala ho kaming makitang validated information. Then aside nun, we also issued a subpoena to the media personalities who were present during those press conference and who have personal knowledge na nangyari yung event na yon. And in fact, tinanong po namin din sila isa-isa. Kilala niyo ba yung kinausap ng vicepresidente? May idea ba kayo kung sino yung tao na yon? At bawat isa sa mga nasabihin na ho namin at nag-appear, sinabi nila na hindi ho namin kilala. Wala po kaming alam, Your Honor. And then, nung chineck namin yung open source, nung nagkanta kami ng open source investigation, kasi yun nga, sinasabi ko kanina, Your Honor, Tinitrace namin yung sinabi ni Princess Maui na Romanov ang nakita lang namin doon yung statement ni Mayor Baste noong January 2024 Tinindan din namin kung relevant ba yung pag-aalis ng 75 PNP personnel from the BPSPG at inilipat sa Manila para doon sa Peace and Security i-augment yata sila Atty.

04:18:09.220 --> 04:18:32.400
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Sidder din ho namin yon, pero wala ho kaming na-validate na information relative to the threat against the life of the Vice President. But ganun pa man, Your Honor, I know for a fact na yung aming intelligence service ay continue hong nagmamonitor at nagahanap kung sino yung tao na yan. Baka ho sila ang pwedeng sumagot o yung aming director, Your Honor.

04:18:32.620 --> 04:18:59.180
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay. Thank you, Atty. Lotoc. Let's move to another point now. In your investigation, Atty. Lotoc, what significance, if any, did the NBI give to respondent's own admission that she already spoke to a person to kill the president and the two others? What significance, if any?

04:18:59.900 --> 04:19:07.810
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, mabigat ho iyon kasi lumalabas na hindi lang ho siya nag-joke noong ni-reiterate niya iyon.

04:19:10.130 --> 04:19:23.010
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ibig sabihin, may intention doon ang vice-presidente, base doon sa mga utterances na iyon, pinag-isipan niya yan. In fact, I can classify it as—

04:19:23.150 --> 04:19:29.410
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. The answer is already based on his own interpretation. May we move, Your Honor, that it be stricken from the record?

04:19:29.630 --> 04:19:40.750
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Whose interpretation should he be answering? Witness will please complete his answer, and then the Chair will consider the objection of counsel for respondent.

04:19:40.770 --> 04:19:46.270
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes po, Your Honor. Yun nga sinasabi ko, it was contemplated, sir.

04:19:47.350 --> 04:19:49.310
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay. Now, Atty. Lotoc—

04:19:49.530 --> 04:19:55.010
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: move to strike it off the record considering that he included conclusions of law in his answer.

04:19:56.470 --> 04:20:04.970
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: I mean, you have been asking questions on the basis of law and we did not complain. Now I'm asking question to him as a lawyer. Counsel, please,

04:20:05.070 --> 04:20:17.520
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: motion is denied. Let it remain in the record for whatever purpose it may serve. Let the senator judges give it its due weight according to their discretion. Witness, rather counsel may proceed. Thank you so much.

04:20:17.640 --> 04:20:38.200
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Mr. Witness, you were also asked about the NBI's alleged lack of coordination with certain government agencies such as the PNP, the Armed Forces of the Philippines, and the National Security Council in its investigation of the threats to the President and the two others. Do you remember being asked that?

04:20:38.200 --> 04:20:44.240
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. It was not covered by my cross-examination. It was a query from one of the Senator-Judges.

04:20:45.140 --> 04:20:53.060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: In the discretion of the court, the counsel can ask questions not covered by the cross-examination. We'll allow it.

04:20:53.480 --> 04:20:57.760
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Now, could you explain to the court how is this so, if you can?

04:20:59.620 --> 04:21:13.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In so far as communication with other agencies, the cybercrime division back then, nakafocus ko kami sa investigation aspect. Now, pagdating doon sa security ng...

04:21:13.560 --> 04:21:43.660
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: highest officials. Again, for a fact, I know na may ginagawa yung aming intelligence service and so for us, communicating with other relevant agencies gaya ng AFP, PNP, PCO, and even National Security Council. Yun nga lang, yun sa amin, Your Honor, nakafocus kami dun sa investigation. Ngayon, kung may binababaho ang director, base sa mga informasyong nakalap niya from different agency, mag-i-instruct po siya sa amin.

04:21:43.660 --> 04:22:22.810
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Alright. Now, let me proceed. Mr. Lotok, you were asked during cross-examination about the investigation that you conducted on the alleged threats to the life of the Vice President. You were asked whether there was an affidavit of investigation report on such investigation that you conducted. And you answered there was none. Correct? You remember having said that there is no affidavit of investigation? For the Vice President? For the Vice President. Yes, sir. And you said that there was an investigation but there is no affidavit of investigation. The question now is, so whatever happened, what happened to that investigation?

04:22:23.630 --> 04:22:36.270
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor, since wala ho kaming ma-establish na validated information, hindi ho gaya dito nung sa Presidente na may apparent commission of crime, dito ho kasi wala kami mapagsimulan.

04:22:39.950 --> 04:23:00.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi kami pwedeng mag-produce ng Affidavit of Investigation, if that's the case. Ang ginawa namin, although nagaantay kami ng validated information at nangangalap kami, continue na nagmo-monitor yung aming intelligence service. I know that for a fact kasi yun yung trabaho nila.

04:23:02.110 --> 04:23:10.590
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Siguro ho, pag sila ang tinanong natin, baka meron silang masabi kung ano yung nangyari dyan, ano yung update niyan, maging ho ang aming director.

04:23:10.950 --> 04:23:35.360
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Alright now, but Mr. Witness, you were also confronted with the fact that a certain Princess Maui mentioned in that press conference a certain Operation Romanov that allegedly Is a security threat to the Vice President. Do you remember that? Yes, sir. Now, what did you do, if any, on this information?

04:23:36.810 --> 04:23:58.920
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, security threat. Ang nakita naming relevant dyan, yun nga po, yung pag-aalis ng 75 personnel sa BPSPG, then nilipat dun sa Manila. Then aside from that, basi ho kasi sa... Record ng COA, meron pa rin

04:23:58.780 --> 04:24:21.120
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: pa ring 335, more or less, na naiwan na security personnel ng Vice President. At ang narinig ko yata kay Honorable—iyong sa comment noong Ombudsman na ba siya noon o Secretary of Justice siya—na iyong number na iyan ay mas malaki pa sa bilang ng security personnel ng Presidente.

04:24:21.120 --> 04:24:24.340
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: I'm referring, Mr. Witness, to Operation Romanov.

04:24:24.950 --> 04:24:33.310
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Bacquel Okay, what did you do, if any, on that information offered by Princess Mau, information on Operation Romanov?

04:24:33.790 --> 04:24:39.270
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection? Asked and answered. That was his answer in the previous question. Alright, alright,

04:24:39.390 --> 04:24:41.150
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: alright. Now, what

04:24:42.820 --> 04:24:53.040
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: else? What else did you do, if any, in relation to the investigation, your investigation on the security threat to the Vice President?

04:24:53.660 --> 04:25:30.790
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Paulit-ulit kong sinasabi, yung open source, we trace, ang ano yung mga relasyon nung security threats. Yung Romanov na yan, uulitin ko, narinig namin yan first time sa bibig ni Mayor Baste during my Easter rally in January 2024. And so far, and so far as the NBA is concerned, during that time, nung ako yung jepe, Wala ho kaming na-establish na validated information vis-a-vis yung threat to life against the vice president, sir.

04:25:31.310 --> 04:25:46.900
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay, now, you also mentioned that you issued a subpoena to the Vice President and a letter asking her to shed light on the threats she said she was facing. You remember having mentioned that?

04:25:46.900 --> 04:25:47.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:25:47.430 --> 04:26:01.530
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay now, again, what was the response? At the vice president to the NBI's official investigation to her to appear before it to shed light on the threats she was complaining about.

04:26:04.140 --> 04:26:05.200
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor.

04:26:05.200 --> 04:26:08.680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What is it, counsel?

04:26:08.940 --> 04:26:13.760
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: That is misleading, your honor, because the subpoena was for her to answer.

04:26:15.920 --> 04:26:20.000
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I think he mentioned letter, counsel. I heard letter, if I'm not mistaken.

04:26:20.500 --> 04:26:22.460
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Let's focus on that letter, if you may.

04:26:23.020 --> 04:26:43.980
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, I think that was the December 2, 2024 letter, if I'm not mistaken. And then nag-reply ho sila ng letter. At sinabi po doon ng lawyers na the Vice President is confident that the NBI will also investigate. The alleged threat against her life. Yun po

04:26:43.980 --> 04:26:44.840
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: yung terror

04:26:44.840 --> 04:26:46.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: nung letter na yun sir.

04:26:46.200 --> 04:26:57.550
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Mr. Witness, you also mentioned that since the Vice President did not heed the letter you issued, you were not able to elicit information from her. You remember having said that, correct?

04:26:57.550 --> 04:26:58.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:26:58.120 --> 04:27:18.240
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: However, on the part of the threats to the life of the President and the two others, you did not need to interview them personally to proceed with the investigation. Remember having said that? Yes, sir. Now, the question now is for clarification before our honorable senator judges, what's the difference? Why the difference between the two?

04:27:18.880 --> 04:27:51.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Ulitin Kapo, Your Honor, insofar as the threat against the life of the Vice President, we have not established a validated information that remains to be allegation. Insofar as the threat based on the utterances against the President, the First Lady, and the former Speaker of the House. That was apparent. Nasa video, narinig ho namin. Therefore, based sa aming jurisdiction, which is primary jurisdiction, kaya ho kami nag-imbestiga kaagad doon.

04:27:51.340 --> 04:28:21.060
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay, three more points, Your Honor, before the prosecution winds up its redirect. Now, it was also raised during the discussion during cross-examination. That the vice president was merely exercising her freedom of speech and she was not committing a crime of inciting to sedition. Do you remember being confronted with that issue? Yes, sir. Now, you tell the honorable court what is your response to that issue, if any?

04:28:21.420 --> 04:28:23.400
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, your honor. It will call for his opinion.

04:28:23.900 --> 04:28:25.060
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Exactly. He's a lawyer.

04:28:27.700 --> 04:28:30.380
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Opinion, Your Honor. He's not an expert on the matter. He's a lawyer.

04:28:31.040 --> 04:28:32.420
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Witness may answer if he knows.

04:28:33.020 --> 04:29:03.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, I've already said, Your Honor, to reiterate, if the second highest official of the land uttered openly and in public that she had already contracted a person to kill the President, the First Lady, the former Speaker of the House, and she instructed that person to be relentless in killing them, and that person said, yes, we failed to see any amount.

04:29:06.010 --> 04:29:44.800
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2. Should we allow that kind of argument, should we allow that to become the norms of our society, then nobody would prevent from anyone from doing the same. Imagine the chaos, the disorder and the anarchy, Your Honor. 3. As a lawyer and being in the law enforcement, freedom of speech protects lawful expression. But it does not protect utterances that satisfies the elements of a criminal offense like this one, Your Honor.

04:29:44.960 --> 04:30:06.240
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: A criminal offense like this one. Now, as a lawyer, Atty. Lotoc, when the Vice President uttered in public that she already spoke to a person to kill the President, the First Lady, and the two others—

04:30:06.440 --> 04:30:12.320
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: As a lawyer, did the Vice President betray public trust?

04:30:12.480 --> 04:30:18.900
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. That will call for a conclusion of law already. And as a lawyer, it will call also for his personal opinion.

04:30:20.500 --> 04:30:33.620
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: The Council will propound the questions on also issues of law felony versus crime. What is the penalty? I'm also asking the same line of questions, Your Honor. What is sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander, Your Honor.

04:30:35.760 --> 04:30:42.060
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: A similar question was asked by the Council for the respondent and the witness may answer if he knows. If he knows.

04:30:42.640 --> 04:30:44.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor, as a lawyer.

04:30:46.010 --> 04:30:47.090
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: She betrayed public

04:30:47.090 --> 04:30:49.430
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: trust. Yes, Your Honor. Last question.

04:30:50.150 --> 04:30:51.730
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Atty. Lotoc,

04:30:58.540 --> 04:30:59.780
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: As a matter of law,

04:31:02.310 --> 04:31:14.700
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: if the President, President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. is killed, God forbid, who assumes the presidency?

04:31:15.140 --> 04:31:20.040
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Objection, Your Honor. The Vice President. Speculative. Ashkahn answered. The Vice President.

04:31:20.240 --> 04:31:21.860
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: No more redirect, Your Honor.

04:31:23.060 --> 04:31:35.100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before recognizing counsel for respondent for recross, the Chair would like to recognize Senate President Gatchalian for his interjection. You may proceed, sir, and you have two minutes.

04:31:35.100 --> 04:31:45.680
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Atty. Lotoc, napakinggan ko kanina iyong isang sagot ninyo at sinabi ninyo dito just this afternoon:

04:31:47.240 --> 04:31:52.040
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Yes, we do believe that the Vice President had contracted.

04:31:54.260 --> 04:31:57.900
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Naputo lang siya but obviously contracted someone to...

04:31:57.900 --> 04:32:27.800
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: commit a crime or to kill the President and the others. Kahapon, narinig ko na ipinapasa nyo sa investigative division ng inyong or intelligence service ng inyong ahensya itong tanong na ito. So, ano ba? Meron bang nakontratang papatay o walang nakontratang papatay?

04:32:27.800 --> 04:32:28.180
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

04:32:28.180 --> 04:32:32.540
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Dahil this morning lang sinabi niyo, you believe na merong nakontrata?

04:32:33.770 --> 04:32:45.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Basi ho doon sa utterances, we believe the Vice President na hindi ho siya nagbibiro nung sinabi niya yun. So ang standpoint namin, meron na ho siyang kinausap na tao.

04:32:45.790 --> 04:32:57.100
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Anong ebidensya na meron kayo o meron ka o meron yung Cybercrime Division na made you believe na merong nakontrata?

04:32:58.700 --> 04:33:32.280
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Una, Your Honor, kung iyong pagbabasihan po namin is iyong November 23 na may kinausap siya, puwede hong sabihin na nag-joke lang siya doon kahit galit na galit siya or etc. But then, noong na-incorporate po natin iyong November 26, ni-reiterate pa niya at sinabi niya doon openly and in public na totoo, may kinausap na siya to take revenge if she dies. Our belief is that the Vice President talked to someone.

04:33:32.280 --> 04:33:45.820
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Now, insofar as kung sino iyong kinausap na iyon, and insofar as iyong existence ng tao na iyon, ang makakasagot po noon, Your Honor, since trabaho nila iyon, iyong aming intelligence service po o kaya iyong aming director.

04:33:46.180 --> 04:33:46.240
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So your

04:33:46.240 --> 04:33:50.120
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: belief came from the statements of

04:33:50.120 --> 04:33:51.440
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Vice President Sara?

04:33:51.620 --> 04:33:51.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. No

04:33:51.700 --> 04:33:54.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: more. Statements and admission, sir.

04:33:55.460 --> 04:33:57.580
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So doon lang nanggaling? Wala nang iba?

04:33:58.960 --> 04:34:01.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In so far as the Cybercrime Division, Your Honor, yes.

04:34:01.960 --> 04:34:08.400
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Okay. And then, meron din siyang reply. Sinabi niyo nga kanina, nagpadala kayo ng letter.

04:34:10.780 --> 04:34:12.740
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Dated... December

04:34:12.770 --> 04:34:13.870
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2, Your Honor. December

04:34:13.870 --> 04:34:24.670
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: 2. And may reply rin si VP na dine-deny niya na merong grave threat. So pag dine-deny niya na ginawa niya ang grave threat, obviously, dine-deny niya na may...

04:34:26.570 --> 04:34:35.570
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: So, bakit pa rin ninyo i-file or re-recommend na mag-file ng grave threat in inciting to sedition kung may denial na?

04:34:36.660 --> 04:34:52.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi ho, Your Honor. Ang na-establish po namin doon iyong elements of the crime of grave threats. So, noong nakita namin na na-satisfy at na-comply iyon, noong na-refer po namin ito sa Department of Justice—

04:34:52.750 --> 04:34:59.710
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Nag-concur sa amin ang Department of Justice na indeed na-comply namin, and therefore tuloy iyong proseso ng preliminary investigation.

04:34:59.710 --> 04:35:00.250
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: But what made

04:35:00.250 --> 04:35:17.910
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: you not... Bakit hindi ninyo tinanggap itong paliwanag ni VP Sara sa kanyang letter? Dahil kaagad dito sa letter niya may denial na ginawa niya yung grave threat and therefore wala rin na kontrata kasi magkadugtong yun.

04:35:18.050 --> 04:35:49.530
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, Your Honor... Mere denial would not discount the fact na na-atter niya yon at may kinausap na siyang mga tao. Yun nga ang problema dun kaya namin siya gustong makausap personally para makapag tanong pa kami ng other questions para makita namin totoo ba tong kinontrata ng vicepresidente o kinausap o hindi. Kaya lang yung honor wala ho doon hindi ho siya nag-appear. Yung kanyang sagot is Justine

04:35:49.370 --> 04:36:07.870
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: mere denial lang, walang mga basehan, even circumstantial na basehan. So hindi ho namin siya sinama sa factor in considering whether or not a crime of grave threat has been committed by the Vice President.

04:36:08.130 --> 04:36:10.930
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: With your permission, Mr. Presiding Officer, just one last question.

04:36:11.400 --> 04:36:15.420
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Nakita niyo ba kung merong capability si Vice President Sara? Definitely,

04:36:15.780 --> 04:36:16.680
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: definitely po.

04:36:16.820 --> 04:36:25.180
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Ano ang nakita niyong mga ebedensya kung meron siyang capability gawin yung kanyang sinabing pagbanta at yung kanyang gagawin?

04:36:25.560 --> 04:36:36.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, for one, she is the Vice President of the Republic of the Philippines. And number two, hindi

04:36:36.080 --> 04:36:40.900
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: naman porket Vice President ka, may capability ka gumawa nun. Yes,

04:36:41.320 --> 04:36:47.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor. Not necessarily. But alam naman po natin yung background. Naging presidente ang— Hindi

04:36:47.140 --> 04:36:50.240
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: ka naman porket Senate President. May capability ka gumawa nun.

04:36:50.480 --> 04:36:52.120
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. So

04:36:52.120 --> 04:36:55.360
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: anong-anong ebidensya na meron kayong nakita na kaya niyang gawin nun?

04:36:56.000 --> 04:37:06.580
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Alam naman po natin yung background na yung tatay niya na dating presidente ay hinaharap ngayon yung kaso sa ICC dahil sa mga extrajudicial killings, etc.

04:37:08.650 --> 04:37:16.910
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So, tinignan namin yon na indeed being in that situation, may capability ho aside from the fact na vice-presidente siya.

04:37:16.990 --> 04:37:18.130
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

04:37:20.450 --> 04:37:28.950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Ejercito, thereafter, Senator Judge Ontiveros for their interjections. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready.

04:37:29.610 --> 04:37:41.550
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Atty. Lotoc, given that the Vice President repeated her alleged threats, as presented kanina, sabi ninyo twice or thrice sa mga videos?

04:37:41.550 --> 04:37:41.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:37:43.290 --> 04:37:52.310
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Did you consider her persistent in making the threat or in going through with the threat? Because these two are different.

04:37:54.030 --> 04:38:10.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. I think iyong in-explain ko po, iyan iyong nature of instruction. Kasi iyong nature of instruction niya, sabi niya doon, 'Pag namatay ako, huwag kang tumigil hangga't hindi mo mapapatay sila.'

04:38:10.700 --> 04:38:29.660
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: So there, that's indicative of persistence, na determined din po ang Vice President na gawin iyon at pursigido siya doon sa kaniyang mga utterances, kasi maliwanag po sa instruction na, 'Hangga't hindi mo sila mapapatay, huwag kang titigil.'

04:38:30.000 --> 04:38:41.020
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: So, hindi ba ito tinatawag na persistent lamang doon sa threat kung may mangyari sa kanya? If something happens to her, di ba? Parang yan yung nasa... Yes,

04:38:41.040 --> 04:38:41.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor.

04:38:42.880 --> 04:38:58.720
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Does the heat of the moment still matter here? Kasi maaaring dahilan sa bugso ng galit o sa takot nung gabing yun nang nangyari dahil sa sitwasyon na nandun po sila sa batasan.

04:38:59.590 --> 04:39:08.470
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor, pwede pong mag-matter yan kung yan lang ho ang pinagbasihan namin yung November 23. 2024. Kaya lang, kaya nga ng explanation

04:39:08.470 --> 04:39:20.310
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: explanation ko, kinonsider namin yung mga previous statements na may patterns, may consistencies, yung October 18, 2024, as well as after ng November

04:39:20.310 --> 04:39:33.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: November 23, which is November 26, 2024. So marami ho ang mga factor na kinonsider namin bago kami nag-conclude na indeed. May violation ang vice-presidente.

04:39:33.550 --> 04:39:53.770
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Dahil doon po sa Atty. Lotocdo sa Israel vs. People, GR No. 265736, dated November 19, 2025, sinabi ng Korte Suprema na sa pagtukoy kung may mens rea o kriminal na intensyon, kinakailangan ding umiral ang pagpupursige or persistence. Yes, sir. Kung

04:39:53.770 --> 04:40:11.150
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: walang ganitong pagpupursige, walang krimeng grave threats. Yes, sir. Gaya ng mga bantang binitiwan lamang sa tindi ng galit o bugso ng damdamin o bilang biro at hindi naman sinunda ng anumang kilos o karagdagang pagbabanda.

04:40:11.150 --> 04:40:26.960
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. Insofar as persistence is concerned, nakita po natin yan noong November 23 utterances. At at the same time, persistence in the sense na aside doon sa November 23, inadmit po niya at nireiterate niya yun.

04:40:26.960 --> 04:40:29.380
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In the November 26, 2024 statement.

04:40:29.800 --> 04:40:49.120
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Dahil meron po sa Article 282, yung threats without persistence are not considered grave. Yes, sir. So, in conclusion, Sir President Officer, sa inyong palagay, ano-anong ginawa ng Vice Presidente ang may tuturing na pagpupursige o persistence sa kanyang mga banda? Well,

04:40:49.180 --> 04:41:17.200
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, October 18, sinabi na niya doon na I imagine myself cutting his head, na gusto kong tanggalin yung ulo niya ba. In fact, may instance doon na sinabi niya na, pag di kayo tumigil, uhukayin ko yung tatay niyo, itatapon ko sa West Philippine Sea. Meron ganun noong October 18. And then pagdating dito sa November 23,

04:41:19.930 --> 04:42:08.950
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: She was hurling profanities and invectives habang galit na galit siya at sinasabi niya this country will go to hell dahil yung tao na yan na nakaupo hindi marunong maging presidente. Wala akong kinukonsider na mas mataas sakin. At the same time, he was lying through his teeth para lang makuha yung boto ng mga tao. And then yung nung kinausap niya na papatay sa tatlo. At the same time, ginugtong ho namin yung November 26. Inulit pa ho niya yun aside na persistence na yung nature ng kanyang utterances. Inulit pa ho niya nung November 26 openly and in public na indeed may kinausap siya to take revenge. Na kung mamatay siya, patayin niyo yung tatlo.

04:42:09.750 --> 04:42:16.800
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: That's... much persistence, kung i-establish po natin iyong persistence, Your Honor.

04:42:17.080 --> 04:42:23.180
Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito: Maraming salamat, Atty. Lotoc. That's all. No further questions, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you, Sen. Judge Ejercito.

04:42:23.240 --> 04:42:26.940
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sen. Judge Ontiveros, you may proceed, ma'am, when you're ready. You have 10 minutes.

04:42:31.180 --> 04:42:34.240
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer. Mr. Witness.

04:42:34.640 --> 04:42:35.180
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor.

04:42:36.020 --> 04:42:44.000
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Nabanggit niyo kay Sen. Judge Ejercito, hindi ngayon lang, kanina, iyong admission against interest.

04:42:45.560 --> 04:42:53.960
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Sabi niyo po ang mga pahayag ng vicepresidente ay maituturing na admissions against interest. Tama po?

04:42:54.200 --> 04:42:55.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, ma'am.

04:42:55.690 --> 04:43:06.530
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: May diferensya po ba sa pagtrato sa pahayag ng isang tao kung pabor sa kanya o against sa interest niya ang admission?

04:43:07.210 --> 04:43:54.750
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think so, ma'am. Kasi base dito sa issue natin, Ang vice-presidente is abogada. Alam na po niya yun na the moment she uttered those kind of statements, pwede ho siyang mag-fall in any criminal violation. So pagdating ho nung November 26, instead of avoiding mentioning those utterances, instead of denying that she made those utterances, ang sinabi po niya, nire-iterate niya. Yes, sinabi ko yan na someone has to take revenge. Kung sakaling mangyari ito, mamatay ako.

04:43:56.510 --> 04:43:58.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yun po, Your Honor, ang nakita namin.

04:44:00.340 --> 04:44:03.420
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Kaya ako nasabi na admission against interest po yun.

04:44:04.060 --> 04:44:27.430
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So kung sa halip na i-reiterate niya, i-deny niya yung naunang sinabi, kung sinabi niya na Hindi ko talaga minimin yan or may sinabi siyang maituturing na pabor sa kanya. Iba po yung pagtrato nyo sa ganyang klaseng pahayag sana.

04:44:27.670 --> 04:44:32.060
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Baka maging iba, Your Honor. Okay.

04:44:33.290 --> 04:44:43.410
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So ano po yung diferensya at saka halaga dun sa bigat na binibigay ng batas dun sa admission against interest?

04:44:45.830 --> 04:45:13.210
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, pinapakita ko rito, in the natural order of things, hindi ho ia-admit ng isang tao yung isang bagay na ikakasira niya o na ikakaharap niya sa isang paglilites, something like that. Kapag ho inadmit ng isang tao yung isang bagay na ikakasira niya, maliwanag na ginawa niya yun, sinabi niya yun, at determinado siya.

04:45:13.210 --> 04:45:17.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: sa mga pangyayaring iyon o pursigido siya sa mga pangyayaring iyon.

04:45:17.970 --> 04:45:32.360
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So, masasabi po bang mabigat o napakabigat ang halaga na ibinibigay sa ilalim ng batas sa isang admission against interest?

04:45:32.660 --> 04:45:33.640
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes. Yes, Your Honor, Apo.

04:45:34.330 --> 04:45:46.010
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Panghuli na lang po, Mr. Witness. Bakit nga po pinaparusahan ng batas ang grave threats kahit Pa hindi na tuloy sa physical act?

04:45:47.420 --> 04:46:28.430
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, Your Honor, for purposes of peace and order among the populace, pag hindi ho in-address yung speeches o yung utterances na magka-qualify as grave threat, magkakagulo ho yung mga tao. Pwede na lang ho sabihin kahit na sino na papatayin kita pag ito nangyari. Gagawin ko ito sa'yo pag ito nangyari. So I think the wisdom of the law is to avoid the disorder, the anarchy, and the chaos that it would create, Your Honor.

04:46:28.750 --> 04:46:36.760
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So yung sinasabi niyong wisdom of the law ay hindi lamang sitahin o Pwede po yun yung

04:46:36.760 --> 04:46:43.580
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: isang bagay na tumuloy sa physical act kundi mag-serve ng deterrent? Para gawin

04:46:43.580 --> 04:46:44.500
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: ngayon ng

04:46:44.500 --> 04:46:46.260
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: taong iyon o ng ibang tao

04:46:46.260 --> 04:46:50.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: yung grave threats? Pwede po yun, Your Honor. To serve as a deterrent, Your Honor.

04:46:51.180 --> 04:46:55.120
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: So may preventive na value din nakikita kayo?

04:46:55.220 --> 04:46:56.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes po, Your Honor.

04:46:56.220 --> 04:46:57.160
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Bukod sa curative?

04:46:57.620 --> 04:46:58.420
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, Your Honor.

04:46:59.020 --> 04:47:01.320
Sen. Risa Hontiveros: Salamat po, Mr. Witness. Salamat po, Presiding Officer.

04:47:01.930 --> 04:47:12.950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Antiveros. Senator Judge Rafi Tulfo, thereafter, Senator Judge Alan Cayetano, before the recross of counsel for respondent, if any. Senator Judge Tulfo, you may proceed and you have two minutes.

04:47:13.250 --> 04:47:27.970
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Mr. Witness, aware ba kayo at one point in time, I just don't remember what date was it, na pinulled out yung certain numbers of security personnel ni BP Sara?

04:47:28.950 --> 04:47:31.430
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Based on the news, may nakita po kami nun.

04:47:31.650 --> 04:47:33.210
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: When was that? When did that happen?

04:47:36.120 --> 04:47:41.120
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: 2024 yata, yung 75 PNP personnel from BPSPG, Sir.

04:47:41.180 --> 04:47:45.260
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Was that before the utterance of PPSPG sa Prescon or after?

04:47:45.740 --> 04:47:49.140
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Before, Sir. Before? I think that's before, Sir.

04:47:49.220 --> 04:47:55.810
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So would it be possible na because of that, nakapag-isip siya na mayroon threat against her life?

04:47:56.690 --> 04:48:07.330
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: iyong security niya being pulled out, and walang binigay na reason kung bakit. Kaya maaaring iniisip niya na, well, medyo, sabi nga, sakali na praning—

04:48:07.330 --> 04:48:10.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Very much possible, sir. Opo.

04:48:10.430 --> 04:48:15.230
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: But hindi ninyo ba inimbestigahan bakit na-pull out iyong security details niya?

04:48:15.230 --> 04:48:44.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: May nakita kami doon sa November 26 na video. Nalimutan ko lang iyong timestamp niya. May sinasabi siyang issue sa security niya. Doon nga sa BPSPG, parang from military attached unit, ginawang under na ng Presidential Security Command. I'm not familiar with that.

04:48:45.660 --> 04:48:51.320
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sino pong nag-cause ng pull out? Sino pong nag-utos? Saan galing yung utos?

04:48:53.000 --> 04:48:58.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Atty. Dico Hu, siya masyado. Pero I think part ng reorganization, Your Honor, ng PSG if I'm not mistaken.

04:48:59.400 --> 04:49:02.700
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Part ng reorganization. So, ilan po yung napulo? 75?

04:49:05.080 --> 04:49:06.020
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Hindi ko

04:49:06.020 --> 04:49:17.780
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: pa alam kung yan yun. Ang sinasabi ko po, Your Honor, yung dating BPSPG is under ng attached unit ng Armed Forces of the Philippines, kung di ako nagkakamali. And then, inilagay na siya sa ilalim ng…

04:49:20.210 --> 04:49:46.770
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Presidential Security Command. Yun po yung sinabi ng Vice Presidente during November 26 na security threat dahil doon sa event na yon. Yun po yung tinignan namin. Tinignan din namin yan. Pati nga yung 75 personnel. Kaya lang again, hindi po siya sufficient na mag-establish ng apparent violation of any criminal offense. Kasi nga, para siyang normal na function ng

04:49:46.770 --> 04:50:15.490
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: agencies and departments. Yeah, Mr. Huertas, yung sa akin na kasi yung pag-pull out ba ng security, was it sudden? Did it, I mean, ano yung naging dahilan? At kanino galing yung order para i-pull out yung ilang numbers of security details niya, particularly PNP? And then sabi nyo nga, yung sa PSG, nabawasan din ba? Base sa inyong investigation, bakit nga po nangyari yun?

04:50:15.490 --> 04:50:17.070
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Agencies and Departments Anong nag-trigger noon?

04:50:17.650 --> 04:50:39.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Opo, iyong sa 75, ang naalala ko po sa news, parang inilipat ho sila, Your Honor, sa Manila kasi merong issue na kailangan nilang i-augment dahil may peace-and-order issue sa Manila. So iyon ang nakita kong nasa news na ginawa ng PNP, o reason ng PNP.

04:50:39.050 --> 04:50:56.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: ng PNP bakit mayroong ganoong pullout. Then, noong nakita ho namin ilan na lang iyong natira sa Vice President, noong chineck ho namin iyong news, iyong per record ng COA, if I'm not mistaken, meron pa siyang 335 na security personnel.

04:50:56.980 --> 04:50:58.420
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Ah, so marami pang naiwan?

04:50:58.840 --> 04:51:07.400
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes po, Your Honor. In fact, kung hindi ako nagkakamali, narinig ko po iyong sinabi ni Honorable Boying Remulla na

04:51:08.060 --> 04:51:14.080
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yung bilang na yan, mas marami pa doon sa bilang ng mga security personnel ng Presidente. So

04:51:14.080 --> 04:51:30.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: nakita ko namin na hindi sa sufficient para maging valid basis ng investigation. Hindi ko katulad dito sa threat against the president na apparent po yung utterances na nangyayari.

04:51:30.620 --> 04:51:39.230
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Okay, dalawang katulungan na lamang, Mr. Witness. So base sa inyong investigasyon at karanasan, Ilan ba dapat ang security detail ng isang vice president?

04:51:40.290 --> 04:51:44.990
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Sorry po, Your Honor. Wala po akong idea kung ilan po dapat. Last

04:51:44.990 --> 04:51:55.430
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: na lamang. So nung na-pull out yung ilan sa mga security personnel niya, sabi niyo nga 75, right? PNP and then meron pa ating sa PSG. Nagreklamo ba siya?

04:51:57.180 --> 04:51:58.740
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Sa inyong pagkakaalam?

04:51:59.660 --> 04:52:03.220
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Doon sa November 26, Your Honor, I think ang isa sa

04:52:03.220 --> 04:52:44.180
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: issue niya na may threat sa security is yung paglipat ng BBSPG. From attached unit ng AFP na maging under siya ng Presidential Security Command. Yun po yung narinig namin. Pero yun dito sa 75 personnel, insofar as I'm concerned, wala akong nakita sa reports, sa news, sa social media na nagreklamo siya na nawala yung 75. Pero baka malihaw ako, baka mayroon akong hindi nakita. Pero insofar as I'm concerned, Wala akong nakita sa news na nagreklamo siya doon sa 75 transfer ng PNP personnel from BPSPG dinala doon sa Manila, Your Honor.

04:52:44.220 --> 04:52:49.360
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: At hindi na siya nag-request ng augmentation o dagdag doon sa mga nawala na security detail?

04:52:50.180 --> 04:52:55.540
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Mukhang hindi na po, Your Honor. Wala akong kaming nalaman kung may nirequest ba siyang dagdag.

04:52:55.620 --> 04:53:03.960
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: So is it possible na dahil doon sa pag-pull out ng security details, nasabi ko na kanina, tonight, tanong ko na again one more time, na...

04:53:03.960 --> 04:53:15.750
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Yun yun probably ang tinitingnan na reasons ng mga sumusuporta sa kanya, siya or anybody sa circle niya na eto na siguro yun.

04:53:15.750 --> 04:53:17.050
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Tama po kayo, Your Honor.

04:53:17.230 --> 04:53:17.730
Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo: Thank you.

04:53:18.610 --> 04:53:22.950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Alan Caetano, you have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready.

04:53:23.280 --> 04:53:39.520
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Sir, Presiding Officer, Dear Colleagues, susundahan ko lang po yung kay Sen. Riza, Sen. Judge Riza, Sen. Judge J.V. at yung ibang nagtanong sa admission against interest. You stated this already but just for the record, you viewed the whole video, right? The whole 2-hour video.

04:53:39.780 --> 04:53:44.480
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: The November 23, sir. Yes. Yeah, isang beses, sir.

04:53:44.940 --> 04:53:45.740
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Isang bes lang?

04:53:45.880 --> 04:53:46.260
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:53:46.380 --> 04:53:53.000
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Okay. And how many times there has the vice president made admissions against her interest?

04:53:56.690 --> 04:54:01.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir. Ang tinutukoy ko pong admissions against interest doon sa November 26, sir.

04:54:02.250 --> 04:54:12.650
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: No. Sabi mo yung November 23 din na ayaw ng defense gamitin contracted. So yung kinausap is also an admission against her interest, di ba?

04:54:13.040 --> 04:54:17.360
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Di, Sir. Ang sinasabi ko po ang admissions against interest, yung November 26 video po, Sir.

04:54:17.580 --> 04:54:20.860
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Na sinasabi niyang totoo yun at hindi niya sinasabi? Yes, Sir. Okay.

04:54:21.240 --> 04:54:29.820
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So, doon sa November 23, may nakita ka doon na admissions against interest?

04:54:31.470 --> 04:54:39.390
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In so far as I'm concerned, na nireiterate niya. Hindi,

04:54:39.430 --> 04:54:47.240
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: not nireiterate. Siguro para malinaw. In your mind, as a lawyer or as an NBI agent, what is an admission against interest?

04:54:47.580 --> 04:55:01.760
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Iyon nga po iyong in-explain ko kanina. Ito po iyong isang bagay na ginawa ng isang tao—hindi ginawa, sinabi. Kasi it's an admission. Sinabi ng isang tao na ikakasira niya.

04:55:03.360 --> 04:55:10.040
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: But then, instead of denying na sinabi niya yun, In-admit pa niya ito o nire-iterate niya? Okay.

04:55:10.040 --> 04:55:29.720
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Very clear yan. And you and Agent John Mark Kalilong said that the basis of the investigation was the November 23 video. The basis sa inyong affidavit of investigation sa nag-file ng kaso is certain portions of the November 23 video.

04:55:30.220 --> 04:55:30.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: As well

04:55:30.600 --> 04:55:37.340
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: as other evidence. Okay. Sa November 23, ilan ang admission niya against interest?

04:55:43.750 --> 04:55:48.510
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang sinasabi ko pong admission against interest yung

04:55:48.510 --> 04:55:55.770
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: November 26. This is a new question. If you evaluated well the November 23 video,

04:55:59.850 --> 04:56:07.370
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Is there any circumstance in that video that you believe that the Vice President made admissions against her interest?

04:56:08.850 --> 04:56:19.570
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Plain ho yung utterance niya doon, Your Honor. Yung nakita lang namin yung utterances niya. Insofar as I'm concerned, yung admission against interest nangyayari nung November 26.

04:56:19.850 --> 04:56:25.600
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Mr. Witness, sagutin ninyo na lang ako. Lahat ng admissions are utterances?

04:56:25.600 --> 04:56:26.010
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:56:26.090 --> 04:56:44.690
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Okay? Admissions is verbal. Di ba? Hindi ito yung parang admission sa court. Pwede mo i-admit yung documentary evidence, pwede yung object evidence, pwede yung statements. When we talk about admissions against interest, especially in context of what we're talking about, may statement na laban sa interest niya.

04:56:44.890 --> 04:56:45.390
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:56:45.570 --> 04:56:53.410
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So tinatanong ko dun sa buong video, meron ka bang nakita? Wala. Yes or no lang yun. Meron or wala? O meron at wala, hindi yes or no?

04:56:55.220 --> 04:57:01.040
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Kayo nag-evaluate nun eh. Meron o wala? Admissions against her interest?

04:57:03.800 --> 04:57:06.360
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir. The fact na inuttered niya yun. Oh,

04:57:06.380 --> 04:57:15.140
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: which one nga? So, meron ilan at ano yun? A little bit leeway, Mr. Presiding Officer, kasi hindi natukoy masyado yung tanong.

04:57:15.140 --> 04:57:16.760
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senators, judge, may proceed.

04:57:18.150 --> 04:57:21.950
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So, which statement that? That one you're mentioning now. So, yung sagot mo, meron.

04:57:22.650 --> 04:57:27.290
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang understanding ko, sir, nung sinabi ko yan, I'm referring to the November 26, 2024.

04:57:27.750 --> 04:57:29.230
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Mr. Witness, paulit-ulit tayo.

04:57:29.650 --> 04:57:30.070
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:57:30.150 --> 04:57:34.490
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Burahin mo na yung pinag-uusapan natin you're referring to. I'm asking you a direct question.

04:57:35.150 --> 04:57:35.670
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

04:57:35.670 --> 04:57:52.070
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Sa November 23, meron o wala bang statements that you would consider, in your professional opinion as a lawyer and as an NBI agent in charge of investigating this, admissions against interest?

04:57:52.490 --> 04:57:54.550
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang tinutukoy ko lang po again, Your Honor, yung 23.

04:57:54.850 --> 04:58:09.450
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Wala po yung 23. I'm sorry. I don't care, Mr. Presiding Officer, kung anong tinutukoy mo. I'm asking you a direct question. November 23, video. Meron o wala siyang admissions against your interest doon?

04:58:10.280 --> 04:58:18.420
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Lotoc, yes, no, I do not know, I do not remember. We're referring to November 23, not 26.

04:58:18.860 --> 04:58:23.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yeah, I do not know, sir. Ang nare-refer ko na...

04:58:23.560 --> 04:58:34.600
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Don't tell me na. So you do not know. Okay. When she said, kung papatayin ako, may kausap na ako, patayin niyo yung tatlo, is that an admission against interest? Yes or no?

04:58:38.010 --> 04:58:40.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Based on that utterances, sir, yes. I think so.

04:58:40.470 --> 04:58:49.550
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Yes. O, kakasabi mo lang kanina, 'I don't know.' Ngayon, yes. O ano pa? Ano pa sa video na iyon na admission against interest? Meron o wala? Or, 'I don't know'?

04:58:49.550 --> 04:58:51.370
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Iyong utterances na iyon, sir. Sir—

04:58:52.010 --> 04:58:52.730
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: bukod nga dun.

04:58:54.240 --> 04:58:58.260
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: To me, sir, yung utterances na yun, that's admission against interest?

04:58:58.500 --> 04:59:12.330
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Sir, klaro na yun. Tinanong ka na ng presiding officer, sagot mo, I don't know. Tinanong kita ng diretsyo, nasa video, biglang you know, biglang sasabihin mo na yun, utterance na yun. So ang tanong ko na ngayon, bukod dun, aside from that.

04:59:12.670 --> 04:59:15.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Sir, ulitin ko po yung sagot ko. No,

04:59:15.490 --> 04:59:16.330
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: you don't need to answer.

04:59:16.890 --> 04:59:31.790
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: No, I'm asking you, aside from the utterance, the statement, na kung papatayin nila ako, patayin sila. Is there any other utterance during in that video that you would consider admission against interest? In so far as I

04:59:31.790 --> 04:59:33.030
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: remember, wala na po yun.

04:59:33.050 --> 04:59:40.850
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Wala na. Okay. When the vice president said, yung pinamigay sa DepEd, isn't that an admission against our interest kung may pinamigay?

04:59:45.030 --> 04:59:46.790
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Siya po yung namigay, sir.

04:59:47.130 --> 04:59:56.470
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Ikaw ang nanood ng video. Ikaw ang nag-evaluate. Ako pa magsasabi sa'yo kung ano laman ng video? Akala ko ba tinignan niyo ng mabuti yung video? Bakit hindi mo alam yung laman ng video?

04:59:58.160 --> 05:00:02.640
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: E. D. S. W. Sir, pwede ko pong tingnan yung sinasabi n

05:00:02.640 --> 05:00:05.200
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: 'yo? So you do not know what the alaman ng video?

05:00:05.600 --> 05:00:10.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, tinignan ko po ang video one time. Ang nag-review po ng video, yung agent on case.

05:00:10.660 --> 05:00:30.460
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Yes, but you're the agent in charge. And you're the one who filed the affidavit. Okay, next question. Nung sinabing mag-people power, tapos ang sinabi niya hindi yun yung solusyon. Kung nag-people power, sino magiging presidente? Kung nag-people power at mawawala ang Pangulong Marcos, sino magiging presidente?

05:00:30.880 --> 05:00:31.860
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Siya, sir. So

05:00:31.860 --> 05:00:37.260
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: hindi ba admission against her interest din? Siguro sa interest niya maging presidente. Pero ang sinabi niya, wag.

05:00:38.650 --> 05:00:39.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I think so, sir.

05:00:40.050 --> 05:00:49.910
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Okay. So I mentioned three. So my next question. When you have an admission against interest, do you take the whole admission or you can cut it up into parts?

05:00:53.630 --> 05:00:55.170
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor, iyong— If

05:00:55.170 --> 05:01:07.190
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: my admission against interest is one sentence or one paragraph or three sentences, can you take one sentence and say yun lang yung admission and the two other sentences are not? I think

05:01:07.190 --> 05:01:08.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: it should be the whole, sir.

05:01:08.170 --> 05:01:46.800
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: The whole sentence. So the whole sentence niya, nung sinabi niyang kung papatayin ako, is pinagbibintangan niya yung tatlo na papatayin siya. So if you say it's an admission against interest and you believe it, you also have to believe na papatayin siya nung tatlo. The same thing, if you're going to say na namudmud siya sa DepEd, ang sinabi niya galing sa First Lady yung pera. So you're also going to have to believe that. So if you're going to believe her, na yung ibang sinabi ay seditious, eh ngayon sinabi nga niya hindi solusyon ng people power. So as the evaluator, Bakit hindi consistent yung evaluation niyo nung video?

05:01:47.100 --> 05:01:54.440
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, I think insofar as people power is concerned, I think sinabi niya yata na, yes ma'am, natutuwa ako dun sa ginagawa niyo. Hindi.

05:01:56.420 --> 05:01:58.560
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Pwede ko pong ulitin. Let the

05:01:58.560 --> 05:02:07.140
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: record speak for itself. It's on page 26. Same paragraph nung sinabi niya ang papatayan. But having said that, last question.

05:02:09.640 --> 05:02:18.550
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Bakit sa cybercrime ni-refer? Bakit hindi sa anti-terrorism or sinabi mo meron intel group? Bakit sa cyber crime?

05:02:18.810 --> 05:02:21.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, may cyber aspect po kasi yung violation.

05:02:21.810 --> 05:02:31.750
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Okay. What are the aspects of the alleged threat? One is the cyber crime grave threat. The other one is a possible assassination threat, right?

05:02:33.800 --> 05:02:39.160
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, Your Honor. Yung sinasabi kong may cyber aspect, the utterance was made through...

05:02:39.160 --> 05:02:44.800
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Through cyber. And the utterance... In accordance with you, constitute grade threat.

05:02:45.160 --> 05:02:45.600
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: Yes, sir.

05:02:45.780 --> 05:02:51.600
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: But if she meant it, and if it is true, and if it is accurate, it's also an assassination plot, isn't it?

05:02:53.220 --> 05:02:58.020
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Kung totoo yung utterance niya, napapapatay kita, may kausap na ako, hindi ba assassination plot yun?

05:02:58.800 --> 05:02:59.540
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Maybe, sir. Yes.

05:02:59.800 --> 05:03:08.220
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Hindi maybe. NBI kayo, kayo nag-ano eh. May nagsabi sa presidente, papatayin kita. How much plain can that be as an assassination plot?

05:03:08.440 --> 05:03:10.020
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: That's why, sir, may validation process.

05:03:10.040 --> 05:03:10.460
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: That's why

05:03:10.460 --> 05:03:15.890
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: may validation. Kaya yung tanong ko. Ano ba mas mabigat? Yung assassination plot o yung cyber aspect?

05:03:16.810 --> 05:03:17.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, Your Honor. No,

05:03:18.030 --> 05:03:21.390
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: no. Diretso ang tanong. Hindi no, no, no. Anong mas mabigat? It's a

05:03:21.390 --> 05:03:35.750
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: direct question. If you were NBI director now or whatever, you were PNP chief, dalawang iniimbestigahan mo, yung cyber aspect na pwedeng cyber libel, pwedeng grave threat, at yung assassination plot, ano mas mabigat sa dalawa? Ano yung pra-prioritize mo?

05:03:36.290 --> 05:03:40.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, yung cyber aspect, based on the law, mag-a-add siya ng one degree higher.

05:03:42.770 --> 05:03:47.950
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So, magde-debate tayo kung anong higher: papabayaan mong mapatay ang Presidente?

05:03:48.070 --> 05:03:48.470
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: winding up.

05:03:49.890 --> 05:03:59.810
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: The point I want to make, Mr. President, is whether I was the PSC, the Executive Secretary, NBI, or an ordinary citizen, my first concern is wag mapatay ang presidente.

05:04:00.330 --> 05:04:00.970
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

05:04:01.150 --> 05:04:07.630
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: But instead of the NBI director taking it upon himself, giving it to the anti-terrorists or to the intelligence, sa cybercrime binigay.

05:04:08.590 --> 05:04:16.110
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, again, uulitin ko, yung utterances was made through information and communication technology. Kaya may jurisdiction also.

05:04:16.110 --> 05:04:16.810
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: I hope if

05:04:16.810 --> 05:04:25.990
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: anyone of my colleagues here become president, magbago yung attitude ng NBI. Mas importante pala cyber kaso sa buhay ng presidente. Not necessarily, Your Honor. Thank

05:04:25.990 --> 05:04:26.650
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: you, Mr. President.

05:04:27.190 --> 05:04:31.970
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Noted. Council correspondent is recognized for his recross, if any.

05:04:32.330 --> 05:04:33.910
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Just a few points, Your Honor.

05:04:34.110 --> 05:04:35.290
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You may proceed, sir, when you're ready.

05:04:36.680 --> 05:04:43.910
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, during your testimony, you mentioned that an unsigned document is a mere scrap of paper.

05:04:45.860 --> 05:04:54.180
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Yes, Your Honor. But you also said on redirect that the lack of signature is a typographical error.

05:04:55.380 --> 05:05:05.090
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No. Yung typographical error, based sa tanong sa akin kanina ng abogado, yung misspelling, yung mali yung...

05:05:06.810 --> 05:05:09.210
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Docket number, kung mali man iyon.

05:05:13.160 --> 05:05:14.220
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yun, Your Honor.

05:05:14.720 --> 05:05:15.280
Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan: Okay.

05:05:16.790 --> 05:05:24.170
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, you mentioned on redirect also about the November 26, 2024 presscon, correct?

05:05:25.240 --> 05:05:26.780
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, Your Honor. Yes, sir.

05:05:28.320 --> 05:05:32.280
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So after that presscon, did you interview VP Sara?

05:05:33.070 --> 05:05:33.850
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir.

05:05:34.820 --> 05:05:42.000
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: And despite not having interviewed her, You made findings on her mental state.

05:05:44.380 --> 05:05:48.900
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No? Findings ng mental state, sir? What do you mean by that?

05:05:48.980 --> 05:06:01.360
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: My question is, despite not having the chance to interview VP Sara, nevertheless, you included in your investigation or findings about her mental state.

05:06:01.400 --> 05:06:09.910
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Based on the series of events, Your Honor, as I have said, State of mind can be shown through the overt acts, Your Honor. Okay.

05:06:10.230 --> 05:06:14.110
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, you were also asked about persistence, correct?

05:06:14.130 --> 05:06:14.350
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

05:06:14.470 --> 05:06:29.470
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Now, the subject video was on November 23, 2024, correct? Yes, sir. But to demonstrate persistence, you referred to a presscon on October 18, 2024.

05:06:30.090 --> 05:07:02.620
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: No, sir. To demonstrate persistence, yung nature ng atirances niya, Ulitin ko siya, in-explain ko muna, the nature of the instruction was persistent because of the fact na ang sabi niya, wag kang tumigil hanggat hindi mo sila mapapatay. And then, i-reiterate niya ito noong November 26. Now, as to consistency patterns at persistence pagdating sa galit niya sa presidente, yung October 18 may kinalaman kasi ang unang sinabi niya doon,

05:07:02.620 --> 05:07:12.740
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Valang. Kinukonsider akong number one. Hanggang number two lang yung Pilipinas na to. Then pangalawa, I imagine myself cutting his head.

05:07:14.340 --> 05:07:18.720
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Then kinumpara namin siya nung November 23. Already satisfied with

05:07:18.720 --> 05:07:19.100
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: the answer.

05:07:19.880 --> 05:07:22.000
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Consistent po yung...

05:07:22.580 --> 05:07:24.460
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What was that, counsel, for responding?

05:07:24.840 --> 05:07:26.980
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We are already satisfied. No need to

05:07:26.980 --> 05:07:28.300
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: elaborate. I think already answered. Yes.

05:07:28.920 --> 05:07:44.360
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Alright. Last two questions. So you said that the February 14, 2025 DOJ certification found your investigation or the case that you filed sufficient?

05:07:44.920 --> 05:07:52.100
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Based on the certification, the DOJ stated that you have complied all the elements of the crime charge. So

05:07:52.100 --> 05:07:57.860
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: this DOJ evaluation, does this amount to a final verdict?

05:08:00.390 --> 05:08:07.810
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Ang maliwanag hudon for purposes of preliminary investigation. Wala akong sinabing na final verdict.

05:08:09.360 --> 05:08:16.920
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, you also mentioned the concept of open-source investigation. Does this include internet browsing?

05:08:17.750 --> 05:08:18.530
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

05:08:18.770 --> 05:08:22.250
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So you Google search? Kasama ba iyon?

05:08:22.250 --> 05:08:22.390
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Yes, sir.

05:08:24.410 --> 05:08:37.550
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Google search mga news articles, websites, videos, correct? Yes, sir. Including mga YouTube videos? Yes, sir. Alright. I'll show you a short video and I'll ask one final question.

05:08:39.550 --> 05:08:41.130
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Kindly show the video, Tek.

05:08:54.170 --> 05:09:06.260
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Worry ko lang is yung mga anak ko dahil hindi talaga yan sila sanay na wala ako. Nasanay kasi sila, lumaki kasi sila na

05:09:06.260 --> 05:09:29.980
Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte: Katabi ko iyan sila sa tulog. Iyan iyong worry ko, iyong aking mga anak. Dahil nawalan sila ng nanay, iyan iyong hindi ko kasi magawa remotely, iyong pagiging nanay. Pero iyong trabaho dito at trabaho diyan sa Pilipinas, kung saan man ako, magawa ko siya remotely.

05:09:33.050 --> 05:09:39.270
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: So, in the course of your open-source investigation, did you encounter this video?

05:09:39.950 --> 05:09:41.410
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Hindi ko po na-encounter yan, Sir.

05:09:41.510 --> 05:09:42.570
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: Nothing further, Your Honors.

05:09:44.770 --> 05:10:08.550
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Before we let go of the witness, the Presiding Officer just has a few points. Number one, to clarify, Atty. Lotoc, sa pagtatanong po ni Senate President Wengat Shalan kanina, sabi niyo po, maliban sa mga salitang binanggit o sinambit na ikalawang Pangulo na may nakausap na siya na gagawa nung kanyang kautosang patayin, diyo mo no, ang tatlong opisyal ng bansa,

05:10:08.550 --> 05:10:13.360
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: wala po kayong hawak na ibang ebidensyang may kinausap na nga siya.

05:10:13.360 --> 05:10:16.600
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In so far as the cybercrime division is concerned, sir, opo.

05:10:17.480 --> 05:10:44.700
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Pangalawa po, sabi ninyo po, sa ilang katanungang ipinukol sa inyo, na hindi ninyo alam kung totoo o hindi ang ilang mga sinabi ng Ikalawang Pangulo sa video na napanood po ninyo nang isang beses, iyong mahigit dalawang oras. Sa kabuuan po, ang kaya ninyo lang pong sabihin ay sinabi niya iyon. Pero kung totoo man iyon o hindi, wala po kayo sa lugar para sabihin na totoo nga ba lahat ng mga sinabi niya?

05:10:45.160 --> 05:10:56.400
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Well, una, since Vice President siya, at base doon sa circumstance na galit na galit siya at nagbabato siya ng mga pagmumura, we believe na totoo iyong mga sinasabi niya, Your Honor.

05:10:56.400 --> 05:11:44.620
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And, as an advisement perhaps to the Senator-Judges and the public as well, an admission against interest as mentioned in the Rules is nothing really special. An admission against interest under the Rules is simply an exception to the hearsay rule. Where a person is about to die or is unavailable to testify, his statements against his or her interest may be admitted, testified to by another person—not the way we seem to be giving admission against interest na parang umamin na dahil labag sa interest niya iyon. The Rules are specific, and the purpose also is specific: it is an exception to the hearsay rule. If there are no other points or questions to be raised by any of the Senator-Judges—

05:11:50.900 --> 05:11:53.660
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator-Judge Padilla is recognized for his intervention.

05:11:55.320 --> 05:11:56.700
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Puwede po bang magtanong ulit?

05:11:56.700 --> 05:11:57.350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You have two minutes, sir.

05:11:57.350 --> 05:11:57.720
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Yes, of course, sir.

05:11:59.240 --> 05:12:15.120
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Kanina po nabanggit kanina ng isang senador na meron pong dalawang kaso. Sa panahon ni Pangulong Rodrigo Roa Duterte na inimbestigahan niyo po, isang hundred fifty million, tsaka ano po yung isa? Ang naalala ko, Your Honor, kay MAS yata. Hindi

05:12:15.120 --> 05:12:26.400
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: ako may hawak noon, Your Honor, hindi ako ang Cybercrime Division. I think ibang unit ang nanghuli, although ang Cybercrime

05:12:26.400 --> 05:12:28.940
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Division yata yung nag-file. Pero hindi ako may hawak noon.

05:12:28.940 --> 05:12:48.880
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Hindi po panahon niyo. Pero ano po nangyari doon? Na-dismiss po ba yan? Ang alam ko na-dismiss yata, Sir. Nagsakuha din po ba sila ng masusing investigasyon? Hindi ko po masasagot. Hindi po ako nag-imbestiga, Your Honor. Wala po kayong nabalitaan kung gumawa din sila ng masusing investigasyon?

05:12:49.120 --> 05:12:53.540
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Again, Your Honor, kung ibang unit po ang nagsagawa

05:12:53.540 --> 05:13:09.280
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: noon, wala po akong personal knowledge. Opo, opo. Kasi po doon malinaw eh na mayroong involved na pera. Kasi alam niyo matagal din po ako nakulong. Tatlong taon din po ako sa kulungan. Marami po ako nakasama dyan ng mga hired killers.

05:13:10.800 --> 05:13:36.280
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Katunayan, pati po hindi hired killers, nakasama ko din po dyan. Sila Tihanki. Katunayan, excuse po sa aking seatmate, madami po talaga. Pag-usapin po kasi ng pera, talagang may threat. Pero sa tingin po ba niyo yung... Ang mga nangyari noong November 23, birthday ko pa po yun.

05:13:37.680 --> 05:13:49.780
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Sa tingin niyo po ba, walang involved na kahit anong pera dito? Walang kahit anong ano? Threat pa rin po ba yun sa palagay ninyo? Kasi ang hired killer, pera-pera po yan.

05:13:50.630 --> 05:13:54.450
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Based on our findings, great threat, Your Honor, and inciting position.

05:13:56.830 --> 05:14:16.870
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Meron po ba? Inciting? Okay. Maganda pong pag-usapan yan. Doon po ba, pagkatapos po ba nung November 23 na mga sinabi ng ating vicepresidente, meron po bang ginawa ang ating mga taong bayan para maging inciting for sedition? Nagbunga po ba ito?

05:14:17.400 --> 05:14:23.180
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Your Honor, ulitin ko po yung sakot ko. In the case of people versus nabong, hindi ho necessary.

05:14:23.720 --> 05:14:29.970
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Pakisagot na lang po kung yes or no. Kung meron po bang naganap na pag... Kilos ang mga tao.

05:14:31.380 --> 05:14:36.700
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: In so far as yung Seditious Act, wala kaming nakita, sir.

05:14:37.060 --> 05:14:53.320
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Wala po. Opo. Meron pa pong isang tanong. Doon po ba sa mga naganap na maraming protesta, merong trillion march, merong ano-anong march, nakita niyo po ba doon ng vice-presidente? Yes or no lang po?

05:14:54.090 --> 05:14:55.570
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: Saan po ang protesta? Sa

05:14:55.570 --> 05:15:10.210
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: lahat po ng protesta na ganap. Dilawan, Pinklawan, Duterte, ano man po. Wala akong personal knowledge, Sir. Yes or no lang po. Nakita niyo po ba doon si Vice Presidente? Nagsalita po ba siya? Nagbigay po ba siya ng panahon dyan sa mga yan?

05:15:12.000 --> 05:15:16.640
Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla: Insofar as I'm concerned, wala akong nakita, Sir. Wala akong nakita. Okay lang po. Maraming salamat po.

05:15:17.020 --> 05:15:26.660
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Sen. Judge Padilla. Atty. Lotoc, you are excused and the court thanks you for your time and cooperation with this impeachment court. Thank

05:15:26.660 --> 05:15:27.420
Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc: you very much, Your Honor.

05:15:28.960 --> 05:15:58.350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: May I ask, good, that the Honorable Defensor is standing up. Tomorrow, the subpoena for Atty. Lopez is only for today and tomorrow. The subpoena thus far, yesterday rather, and today. The subpoena for Captain Belio is for... Ah, no subpoena, but she is scheduled to testify tomorrow. So what is your pleasure, Honorable Defensor?

05:15:58.650 --> 05:16:08.800
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Your Honors, before we proceed any further, the prosecution respectfully requests for a five-minute recess. Just five minutes, Your Honor.

05:16:12.040 --> 05:16:20.120
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: You can do your thing, Honorable Defensor, while I recognize Senator Judge... With the permission of Senator Judge Cayetano, of course.

05:16:20.160 --> 05:16:21.440
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Can they

05:16:21.440 --> 05:16:22.100
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: do their thing?

05:16:22.500 --> 05:16:32.300
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: I was going to suggest that I have a question about tomorrow. Maybe the defense can do their huddle while I ask this question. The question naman is...

05:16:33.340 --> 05:16:35.460
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Sen. Cayetano, Alan is recognized.

05:16:35.620 --> 05:16:50.740
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. Senate President. This is addressed actually to the Presiding Officer, Senate President, and our colleagues. So are we going to have the oral arguments tomorrow? Yes. So I think we all received the...

05:16:52.690 --> 05:16:54.270
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Copies have been distributed.

05:16:54.590 --> 05:16:55.910
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: The memoranda of

05:16:55.910 --> 05:16:56.970
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: the parties have been

05:16:56.970 --> 05:17:22.210
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: distributed. More or less it's 33 and 32 pages. So that's 60 pages. I'm beginning to study it today because I had to study about other matters tomorrow. So the second question is while we will have the oral arguments tomorrow, will we decide as a body tomorrow or we have a little bit more time to digest what was discussed tomorrow and then decide? We will

05:17:22.210 --> 05:17:35.590
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: decide as a body tomorrow because my understanding is the parties will be needing time to analyze whatever data will be produced should the subpoenas be granted.

05:17:36.430 --> 05:17:42.210
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: But that is for Article 2.

05:17:44.090 --> 05:17:48.590
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: That is correct, Your Honor. That is for Article 2.

05:17:48.810 --> 05:17:51.950
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Which we will start hearing in August, right?

05:17:52.280 --> 05:18:02.160
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: As of now, it is the last one but as we had talked about earlier, the prosecutors can decide to bump it up depending on their strategy to present evidence.

05:18:02.500 --> 05:18:47.310
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: So I'm not moving that we postpone the oral arguments tomorrow because I think we're ready to listen but I do want to make an intelligent decision and there are many many issues from the test of If it's definite, is it a fishing expedition, 20 years or you know so there's so many issues would it be possible that we also have our own huddle tomorrow before we decide just in case we're not I mean if everyone's ready to decide tomorrow who am I to stop the decision but I just don't want to make a mistake in deciding at medyo makapal tong

05:18:52.200 --> 05:18:55.740
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Assuming we read it once tonight, maybe once tomorrow.

05:18:56.200 --> 05:19:05.560
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The presiding officer yields to the senate president with respect to the calling of a caucus tomorrow and what time. Para siya magpakain hindi ako.

05:19:05.680 --> 05:19:54.680
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Well, let me leave it to the Presiding Officer and Senate President. My proposal is after the oral arguments and after all the senator-judges have asked their questions, just so that we have one more night or one weekend to go through it. If we're not going to vote on it and we have a consensus, then no problem. And there's a precedent because we did this during the time of the late Senate President Enrile when it came to issues of utmost importance that could decide the impeachment-trial results one way or the other. But that does have implications in terms of precedent, especially itong pinag-uusapan natin, AMLA at saka BIR.

05:19:54.680 --> 05:19:57.080
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: The Senate President is recognized to respond.

05:19:57.080 --> 05:20:24.558
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: I share the same feeling with Senator-Judge Alan Cayetano. I started reading both memos and, indeed, it's quite lengthy and complicated, and we need to also consult our legal teams. So may I propose, Mr. Presiding Officer, to have a caucus tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. so that we can thoroughly discuss this?

05:20:24.558 --> 05:20:26.040
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: After the oral arguments.

05:20:26.040 --> 05:20:57.660
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Senate President, I really thank you that twice already during impeachment, without talking, we have the same wavelength. May I propose that if we have a caucus after the oral arguments, just so that we can—for all we know, maganda iyong discussion and we're enlightened by the prosecution and [unclear]. And, to be honest, I'll probably still be reading this at 10:00 a.m. If that is [unclear], we can have a caucus maybe after—

05:20:57.660 --> 05:21:05.640
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: During the break. After the oral arguments, we'll pause for a break and have a caucus. We can call a longer break, Senator-Judge.

05:21:05.820 --> 05:21:07.880
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Thank you, Senate President and Senator.

05:21:08.160 --> 05:21:11.360
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Is the Honorable Defensor ready after his five-minute huddle?

05:21:11.600 --> 05:21:21.520
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor, may I request the Court to recognize the counsel for the panel of prosecutors, Atty. Lorna Patajo Capunan, Your Honor.

05:21:22.340 --> 05:21:26.580
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Kapunan, counsel for the prosecutors is recognized.

05:21:28.890 --> 05:21:30.530
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: What do you have for us, ma'am?

05:21:37.810 --> 05:21:49.430
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Magandang gabi po sa inyong lahat, Atty. Lorna Patau Capunan, counsel for the prosecutors under the control and supervision of the House Panel of Prosecutors.

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Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: If I may, Your Honors.

05:21:52.300 --> 05:21:53.070
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Please proceed.

05:21:53.950 --> 05:22:05.770
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: I can see Sen. Panfilo Lacson coming in, at narinig ko po iyong kaniyang interview noong sinabi po niya na baka magkaapo na tayo dito at magkaroon na ng national bird, eh hindi pa tapos ang impeachment trial.

05:22:05.770 --> 05:22:12.010
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Baca magka-apu na tayo dito at magkaroon na ng national bird, eh

05:22:12.780 --> 05:22:20.640
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: hindi pa tapos ang impeachment trial na ito. We have seen, we have seen.

05:22:22.170 --> 05:22:24.290
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: This is... Mami

05:22:24.740 --> 05:22:25.680
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: said national bird.

05:22:30.140 --> 05:22:36.500
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Hindi po ba, Senator Lacson? Well, somebody who interviewed you said that you said that. It

05:22:36.500 --> 05:22:44.500
Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson: must be another... Senator Judge or another person. Talking about birds, okay. Please proceed, ma'am. I never talked about birds.

05:22:48.630 --> 05:22:54.050
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Then definitely my information was hearsay.

05:22:55.650 --> 05:23:08.070
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: In any event, in the last four trial days, we have had several hours of legal calisthenics, direct examination,

05:23:09.580 --> 05:23:41.360
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Cross-examination and today we also had redirect and recross. A total of approximately eight hours a day and two witnesses. Today we are supposed to hear a subpoenaed witness, Atty. Zulaica Lopez. And after her, another witness, subpoenaed or Atty.

05:23:41.360 --> 05:24:11.400
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: to appear here, Captain Belinda Bello. After hearing the two competent and credible witnesses, not expert witness, but through their credentials, showed that they were competent to testify on the matters that they were asked to authenticate. After evaluating...

05:24:11.400 --> 05:24:12.800
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Belinda Bello

05:24:12.010 --> 05:26:24.700
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Through these two witnesses, 19 documentary evidence from Agent Kalilong and 45 documentary evidence from our recent witness, Atty. Lotoc. And after the very clarificatory and probing questions of our senator judges, After evaluation and not only during this five-minute hurdle, it is the wisdom of the public prosecutors as expressed through this representation that we find it Totally unnecessary, redundant, and a surplusage to still present Atty. Zuleika Lopez and as well, Captain Belinda Bello. Let me just state for the record the reasons why. Had we been able to present Atty. Zuleika Lopez She would have proven three things. Or we would want to have proven three things. First, that she was personally present inside that detention center when the vice president uttered the video Exhibit P-4-10. When she uttered the statements that she had contracted. That she had already contracted a killer. And you have heard this already before. And so on. To

05:26:24.700 --> 05:27:35.720
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: kill the President, the First Lady, and the Speaker of the House. That would have been the first offer of testimony: that she was personally present inside that detention center when the Vice President uttered those statements. Admitted already. Admitted by no less than Atty. Vinluan here, who, in his closing remarks or opening remarks, mentioned more than ten times that that press conference occurred, Atty. Zuleika Lopez and the Vice President were there, and that in that press conference or live broadcast, the Vice President did utter the statements we have heard time and again. Exhibit P-4-10. Although Atty. Vinluan says yes ten times—I counted just now—the admission there as to the utterance was made ten times.

05:27:35.720 --> 05:27:50.540
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Atty. Vinluan did say that it is a matter of interpretation. He says that the Vice President did not act as Vice President when she made those utterances. He tried, attempted to give a humane picture

05:27:50.540 --> 05:28:03.450
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: picture to the Vice President that she had reacted as mother, sister, brother? No. And that

05:28:03.450 --> 05:28:15.450
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: that She was not reacting in her capacity as Vice President. But in that statement that Atty.

05:28:17.390 --> 05:28:56.860
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Bin Luan mentioned, there was admission as to the utterances being made more than ten times, he said. Our interpretation is wrong, but again, that is left to the discretion of this court. So that was the first. The fact that there were utterances made in a press conference and that Atty. Zulweka was president. No need to present Atty. Lopez for this purpose. Secondly, our second purpose was that

05:28:58.390 --> 05:29:59.800
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Atty. Zuleika Lopez was not only present but so were other media personnel. Present there, who heard the utterances of the Vice President. And lastly, we would have offered Atty. Zuleika Lopez to confirm the authenticity and the provenance of that video. Exhibit P-4-10. Totally... Unnecessary because why? Because the defense themselves used the very same video said exhibit in their defense when they showed Atty. Zuleika Lopez crying and allegedly complaining about

05:29:59.800 --> 05:30:05.140
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: about... the violation of our human rights so by their own admission there is no question

05:30:05.140 --> 05:30:19.610
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: There is no question about this video, so it is our contention, and we hereby manifest that, with these admissions on file. And thank—

05:30:19.610 --> 05:30:30.750
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: thank thank you to the senator judges for the clarificatory questions propounded and uh i specifically like

05:30:30.750 --> 05:32:02.530
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: To say thank you to Senator Vicente Sotto, for, in his brief statement by virtue of clarification, bringing us back to what this trial is all about. We are not a criminal court, and much time has been spent: is there grave threats? Is there inciting to sedition? All of this is relevant, but in the context of: by doing these grave threats and by inciting to sedition, does it make the Vice President a violator of the Constitution? Does it make her a violator of her solemn oath of office? Is this a high crime? Is this betrayal of public trust? That is what this impeachment is all about. It is not what Atty. Vinluan says. If it is grave threats, by all means, we admit: prisión correccional, six months to six years, and that's a fine of two thousand pesos. If it is sedition, the same. The MTC should be trying these crimes, or the RTC. But

05:32:02.390 --> 05:32:04.190
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: But that's not what this is all about.

05:32:04.430 --> 05:32:10.410
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Atty. Kapunan, with your indulgence, kindly take up the matter of the presentation of witnesses, because that is the subject at hand.

05:32:10.490 --> 05:32:18.870
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: Correct. So, going back to why we are making this manifestation,

05:32:18.870 --> 05:32:45.640
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: We have said, and I have said on behalf of the public prosecutors, Your Honors, that we will no longer be presenting Atty. Zuleika Lopez. And, Your Honors, in addition, because the testimony of Capt. Belinda Bello is merely corroborative—she would have been presented only to corroborate the fact that there was a transfer order made in the detention center—

05:32:45.640 --> 05:34:33.880
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: merely corroborative. She would have been presented only to corroborate the fact that there was a transfer order made in the detention center and that that transfer order had been the subject of the video or press conference of November 23, 2024. And so, Your Honors, we are also No longer going to call us a witness, Captain Belinda Bello. With that, Your Honor, I think the reminder of Senator Lacson that the accused, that the respondent is entitled to a speedy trial. Prosecution, the prosecutors would want this to be a reminder. To all, we are doing our part. We have reduced trial dates by lessening our presentation on this article by two witnesses, Your Honor. And therefore, we would also request that the same be also a reminder to the defense counsels or the counsels for The defense. Your Honor, please. In my 48 years of practice as a private lawyer, and I'm grateful for this chance, I have learned two things in litigation. The first thing I have learned is, first,

05:34:35.400 --> 05:35:11.520
Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan: learn when to present and not to present a witness, and second, learn when to stop. And I think that should be our takeaway from this manifestation. We have decided from the evidence presented and from everything in consideration that we will not present these two witnesses. And on that note, I will also say we know when to stop. And this is where I stop. Thank you.

05:35:11.820 --> 05:35:17.290
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator—rather, thank you, counsel.

05:35:17.290 --> 05:35:23.150
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Mr. Presiding Officer, maliit lang kasi sa sinabi ni Ma'am Lorna—

05:35:23.150 --> 05:35:24.350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Just a

05:35:24.350 --> 05:35:28.850
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: quick reply, Mr. Presiding Officer. First of

05:35:28.850 --> 05:35:44.850
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: all, let me thank the prosecution for foregoing the two other witnesses that is supposed to be presented this week. I was actually talking to our Presiding Officer earlier on, and I was just computing the number of witnesses.

05:35:44.810 --> 05:36:18.380
Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian: Based on our pretrial order, the prosecution will present 57 witnesses; the respondent will present 45 witnesses. That's a total of 102 witnesses. At the rate we are going, of two days per witness, we will finish in 17 months. That's a year and a half, or a year and five months to be exact. So any chance of shortening the proceedings will be highly appreciated. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

05:36:18.420 --> 05:36:34.240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Also, thanks to counsel for the private prosecutors. Therefore, tomorrow, what is calendared for our agenda is the disposition of the two requests for subpoena by the panel of prosecutors,

05:36:34.420 --> 05:37:02.130
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: namely... motion for the issuance of a subpoena for bank records and amlc records and a motion for the issuance of subpoena um as well for the bir records that we returned via a sealed box given that there are no other witnesses to be presented tomorrow um because director matibag was scheduled based on an earlier decision of the court on monday july 20.

05:37:03.980 --> 05:37:46.240
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: I hope we will have sufficient time to discuss these two subpoenas tomorrow in our trial. To remind, both parties shall be given 10 minutes to discuss the two motions, and this will be discussed jointly already, given that you filed your respective memoranda jointly as well, discussing the two issues. You will be given three minutes by way of rebuttal and three minutes by way of surrebuttal, should it be necessary. Thereafter, the senator judges will proceed to discuss the matter in caucus and thereafter in plenary. Yes, Senator Judge Alan Quetano.

05:37:46.340 --> 05:37:50.920
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: May I just ask, to the Presiding Officer, is 10 minutes enough?

05:37:51.340 --> 05:37:52.200
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Your Honor, we

05:37:52.200 --> 05:37:52.560
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: will be

05:37:52.560 --> 05:37:56.900
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: raising our request to make it at least 15 minutes per party.

05:37:56.980 --> 05:38:31.460
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Sorry, I'll just use myself as an example. I want to draw the line between a fishing expedition and this is definite. And of course, if you can answer it in your presentation, better. I don't have to ask questions anymore. And I can tell you very honestly, I'm really interested in this issue. So may I ask my dear colleagues, since we don't have any other witness tomorrow, I think it will go faster if we give them more time and ourselves less time. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes each and then maybe,

05:38:33.500 --> 05:38:55.790
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, you said three minutes rebut. I mean, can we give them more time to rebut each other? I'd rather they be rebutting each other than rebutting us. But I think this will really be an issue that will educate all of us and it'll really be good for the impeachment court and the Filipino people. So may I ask? The honorable defense,

05:38:55.990 --> 05:38:56.730
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: sir, 15 minutes?

05:38:56.950 --> 05:39:01.510
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Yes, your honor. 15 minutes per argument and 10 minutes per party on rebuttal, your honor.

05:39:01.670 --> 05:39:02.910
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: So 15 and 10?

05:39:03.210 --> 05:39:03.970
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Yes, your honor.

05:39:04.050 --> 05:39:05.830
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: How about counsel-correspondent?

05:39:05.950 --> 05:39:08.730
Atty. Mark C. Vinluan: We will just submit, your honor, to the discussion of this honorable court.

05:39:09.770 --> 05:39:52.780
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: 15 minutes for the oral arguments in chief and then 10 minutes by way of rebuttal and surrebuttal and a reminder to the senator judges each senator judge can speak for a maximum only of 10 minutes and for a total of one hour for each side meaning to say decide to grant the motion and decide not to grant the motion So kindly discuss also among yourselves to make use of the time with respect to taking up and tackling your position if you are for or against the motion so that the period of time will be maximized. Senator Judge Soto is recognized. Yes, sir.

05:39:53.450 --> 05:40:00.550
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Did I hear you right, Mr. Presiding Officer, that you're going to allow us each 10 minutes?

05:40:01.190 --> 05:40:02.130
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: But in no

05:40:02.130 --> 05:40:04.070
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: case to exceed a maximum of

05:40:04.070 --> 05:40:04.630
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: one hour.

05:40:05.070 --> 05:40:18.570
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: For everybody, but I'm sure not everybody with a veil of 10 minutes, but if we do, that's 240 minutes. Again, to reiterate, Senator Judge Soto, a

05:40:18.570 --> 05:40:41.040
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: total of one hour for each side, but a maximum of 10 minutes per Senator Judge each time they stand to speak. So it will be a maximum of two hours for this interlocutory. Issu of the motion for subpoena. Yes, Senator Judge Allen. With

05:40:41.040 --> 05:41:19.070
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: the permission of former Senate President Soto, let me clarify. Two minutes to ask clarificatory question. You're referring to the 10 minutes, one hour, when there's a motion already. Yes. So that assumes, dear Senator, judges, that we don't have a consensus after the caucus, and then we're going to debate it. Yes, that's why it won't last that long. I mean, assuming we all have questions for two minutes, so it's 48 minutes. Then 10 minutes and one hour is if we have a debate whether or not to grant. If I may correct, Senator

05:41:19.070 --> 05:41:43.010
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Judge Allen, the two minutes, if at all, applies to evidentiary issues and questions that we can throw to either party or the witness. But in this case, after a... An elongated oral presentation by both sides, both on in chief and on rebuttal. We should just listen and then go into caucus and decide if you can agree. If not,

05:41:43.130 --> 05:41:46.810
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: then we go out and debate for a maximum of two hours, one hour on each side.

05:41:47.210 --> 05:41:52.410
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Each side, but those are different subpoenas, different for the BIR and the AMLA.

05:41:54.230 --> 05:41:58.680
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: To your point, Senators, former Senate President Soto, that That's times two pa.

05:41:58.820 --> 05:42:09.900
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: No, no, no. Senator Judge Allen, as I said earlier, since the memoranda was submitted by the parties jointly on these twin motions, we will be deciding on it jointly as

05:42:09.900 --> 05:42:25.900
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: well. But would it be possible that we all agree, let's say, on the AMLA but not agree on the BIR, or vice versa, or we both agree on both? Because there are different laws governing AMLA and BIR. Anyway, that's why we'll have a caucus.

05:42:26.240 --> 05:43:05.540
Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III: Yes, may I suggest, Mr. Presiding Officer, and of course my esteemed colleague, may I suggest that we decide on how long each senator would be given after we caucus, instead of setting it now. Let's set the prosecution and the defense and the... And then we go into caucus and then we decide in caucus how long will we be giving each member if we should decide to still debate here instead of getting into a consensus in the caucus.

05:43:05.780 --> 05:43:19.020
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Senator Judge Soto, I completely agree. However, the Presiding Officer was merely citing what's written in our rules right now. We can of course change it by agreeing amongst ourselves to lower it. Or increase it. Hopefully not in the direction of increasing

05:43:19.020 --> 05:43:22.380
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: it. Hopefully after the caucus, we will have a win-cheese solution.

05:43:24.240 --> 05:43:29.600
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Thank you, Senator Judge Allan. Any other points? Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized.

05:43:31.540 --> 05:44:10.150
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: Very quickly, Mr. President, this pertains to an earlier manifestation. I beg the indulgence of our colleagues because it took me some time to retrieve the file. This is reference to my earlier interpolation with the witness on the matter of the case of people versus mass. Earlier it was manifested that this was an inciting to sedition case which was dismissed by the regional trial court. Just for the record, it was dismissed by

05:44:10.150 --> 05:44:12.270
Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano: the Regional Trial Court, not on the merits.

05:44:13.230 --> 05:44:38.330
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: It was dismissed by the Olongapo Court because on June 24 by Judge Richard Paradessa of the Olongapo Regional Trial Court because it was an unlawful arrest. In other words, Mr. Mas was arrested unlawfully and therefore the Regional Trial Court Atty. Giorgio

05:44:38.330 --> 05:44:48.570
Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan: And so, the motion to quash was dismissed—was granted, rather—and the case was dismissed. In other words, it was not dismissed on the merits. For the record, Mr. President.

05:44:54.170 --> 05:44:56.350
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Yes, Honorable Defensor.

05:44:56.350 --> 05:45:05.950
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Just to remind you that tomorrow, kindly give us a list of your witnesses for the following week, for the information of the Court as well as the other party.

05:45:05.950 --> 05:45:07.790
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: We will, if necessary, Your Honors.

05:45:07.790 --> 05:45:14.690
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: And will you be needing a subpoena for Director Matibag for Monday?

05:45:14.690 --> 05:45:18.930
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: won't need a subpoena anymore for Director Matibag for Monday's testimony, Your Honor.

05:45:19.070 --> 05:45:24.570
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: Okay, then no need to issue a subpoena. Any other points the counsel for respondent would like to raise?

05:45:24.930 --> 05:45:26.490
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: Your Honor, just to, before

05:45:26.490 --> 05:45:29.430
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: we end, can we request the clerk of

05:45:29.430 --> 05:45:31.870
Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor: court to reseal the evidence

05:45:31.870 --> 05:45:38.970
Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero: especially? Yes, after we adjourn, may I request the council, assisting councils for the parties to kindly