# July 14, 2026

Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Duterte

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrQeE6SB1YY
Status: Reviewed working draft, revision 3

**[00:03:28.690] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.**  
The Senate President, the Presiding Officer of the Impeachment Court, and the Senator-Judges.

**[00:04:17.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The Sgt. at Arms is directed to make a proclamation.

**[00:04:22.720] Alfredo Sotto Corpuz**  
All persons are commanded to keep silent under pain of penalty while the Impeachment Court is in session for the trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte.

**[00:04:42.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The Impeachment Trial of Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte is hereby called to order. We shall be led in prayer by Senator Judge Christopher Bongo.

**[00:05:01.980] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Almighty and loving God, O Allah, we come before you today with humility, mindful of the solemn duty entrusted to us and the weight of the decisions that lie ahead. Grant us wisdom to discern what is right, courage to uphold the truth and fairness in every judgment we make. Keep us from prejudice, Anger, personal interest, and political pressure. Help us listen with patience, speak with honesty, and act according to conscience, the Constitution, and the welfare of the Filipino people. Gabayanin niyo kaming lahat ng may tungkulin sa mga pagdinig na ito, naway ang bawat panig ay mabigyan ng pagkakataong marinig, ang bawat ebedensya ay mapag-aralang mabuti, at ang bawat pasya Ay nakabatay sa katotohanan, katarungan at tamang proseso. Remind us that public office is a sacred trust. May we never lose sight of the people whose lives are affected by our words, our actions, and our decisions. Let the pursuit of truth strengthen our institutions and deepen our commitment to serve with integrity and compassion.

**[00:06:30.140] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Lord, bring healing to our nation. Where there is division, grant us understanding, patience, and unity. Where there is distrust, restore faith. Where there is fear and anger, give us calmness and restraint. When these proceedings are concluded, help us move forward together, naway makabalik na kami sa aming pangunahing tungkulin. Ang magservisyo at maglingkod sa ating mga kababayan. Now ay maitoon naming muli ang aming buong pansin sa paglilingkod sa ating mga kababayan lalo na sa mga higit na nangangailangan. Lastly, may the Philippine Senate remain united in fulfilling its role as the last bastion of democracy. Within these halls, may truth prevail and the true voice of the Filipinos be heard.

**[00:07:27.530] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
May compassion for others be a steadfast virtue. We live by in our words and in our actions. And may we, your senator judges, be instruments of your grace in the pursuit of peace, justice, and the common good. All this we ask in your holy name. Amen.

**[00:07:50.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The Clerk of Court will now call the roll.

**[00:07:53.400] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.**  
Call of members. Senator-Judge Aquino; Senator-Judge Cayetano, Alan; Senator-Judge Cayetano, Pia; Senator-Judge Dela Rosa; Senator-Judge Ejercito; Senator-Judge Estrada; Senator-Judge Go; Senator-Judge Hontiveros; Senator-Judge Lacson; Senator-Judge Lapid; Senator-Judge Legarda; Senator-Judge Marcoleta; Senator-Judge Marcos; Senator-Judge Padilla; Senator-Judge Pangilinan; Senator-Judge Sotto III; Senator-Judge Tulfo, Erwin; Senator-Judge Tulfo, Raffy; Senator-Judge Villanueva; Senator-Judge Villar, Camille; Senator-Judge Villar, Mark; Senator-Judge Zubiri;

**[00:08:35.670] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.**  
Presiding Officer Senator-Judge Escudero; Senate President Gatchalian.

**[00:08:39.900] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.**  
With 19 senators present, the Chair declares the presence of a quorum.

**[00:08:44.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
With the permission of the body, if there are no objections, we dispense with the reading of the July 13, 2026 Journal of the Senate sitting as an Impeachment Court

**[00:08:59.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
and shall consider the same as approved.

**[00:09:05.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The clerk will please call the case before the impeachment court.

**[00:09:09.080] Atty. Renato N. Bantug Jr.**  
Case number 0042026 in the matter of impeachment trial of Vice President Sarah Zimmerman Duterte.

**[00:09:18.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Appearances for

**[00:09:21.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the prosecution.

**[00:09:21.920] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Good afternoon, your honors.

**[00:09:23.200] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Respect. Same appearance for the prosecution. We are ready, Your Honor.

**[00:09:27.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the respondent.

**[00:09:28.570] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Good afternoon, your honors. Same appearance for the defense.

**[00:09:32.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I see that Atty. Lotoc is already situated in the witness stand.

**[00:09:39.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
To remind you, Atty. Lotoc, you shall continue with your testimony and be subjected to the continuation of cross-examination of counsel for respondent and shall be answering under the same oath that you took yesterday. Is that clear, sir?

**[00:09:54.570] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[00:09:56.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Respondent counsel, may now continue with this cross-examination. Atty. Pinduan, you are recognized and may proceed whenever you are recognized.

**[00:10:02.370] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Your Honor, before we proceed, may I request that counsel for the panel of prosecutors, Atty. Virgil D. Ligutan, be recognized once more for the examination of our second witness.

**[00:10:12.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel for the prosecutors, Atty. Ligutan is recognized on the part of the panel of prosecutors. Again, to reiterate, Atty. Vinluan, when you are ready, you may proceed with the continuation of your cross-examination of the witness, Atty. Lotoc.

**[00:10:29.350] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Good afternoon, Atty. Lotoc.

**[00:10:32.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Good afternoon, sir.

**[00:10:33.250] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, yesterday, you identified videos, correct? And specifically portions of the November 23, 2024 press conference? All right. Now, in that press conference, VP Sara spoke about a lot of topics, correct?

**[00:10:54.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In other

**[00:10:55.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
words, she

**[00:10:59.570] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
said many statements in that presscon. My question is this, do you know for sure that V.P. Sara's statements during that presscon happened in real life? In real life?

**[00:11:21.250] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Rejection, Your Honor. Incompetent. The statements happening in real life as to the real life of the Vice President, this witness is being asked that question. Of course, the witness is incompetent, Your Honor, please. Council

**[00:11:35.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
kindly reform. It seems the witness did not understand the question.

**[00:11:39.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Let me

**[00:11:39.780] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
help you. I'm showing you also a portion of our exhibit D- 1-145-8 This is the whole version of the video that you, the portions that you identified yesterday. And particularly, I'll show you timestamp 51-07 or colon 07 onwards of the video. In this video, the Vice President mentioned about events that happened inside the Batasang Pambansa. Can we play that video, please?

**[00:12:21.600] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Dapat sa demokrasya, there's a rule of law. And

**[00:12:25.820] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
then they make rules as they go along.

**[00:12:29.370] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
The speaker, get her out of the House of Representatives. Kasi hindi siya dapat nandiyan. Bakit? Pag mapayari niyo ba itong compound na ito? And sasabihin pa nila sa akin that there is a threat to my life inside the... Patasang pambansa? Why is there a threat to my life?

**[00:12:58.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right. My question to you is this.

**[00:12:59.920] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, point of clarification, if I may, please.

**[00:13:02.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
for the prosecutor is recognized.

**[00:13:04.960] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, there is a video that is marked in evidence capturing the events on November 23, 2024. And here we have the defense.

**[00:13:16.670] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, may we just do an objection, Your Honor? Wait, wait, I'm explaining. This is not the time for lecture, Your Honor. Counsel,

**[00:13:22.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I have not yet recognized you. Let counsel for the prosecutor finish.

**[00:13:25.150] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Point of clarification, they are presenting a video with anecdotes. I'm now questioning the propriety of the defense presenting a video without laying the basis where this video came from. Who is the source of those annotations there too? Because, Your Honor, there's a video. They're confronting this witness with that video by presenting their own annotated, it's like a props, Your Honor, please. This is highly irregular

**[00:13:54.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
in the court of law. Counsel for the respondent, is this the video previously marked in evidence? Your Honor,

**[00:14:02.180] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
as I mentioned, we marked it in evidence as D-4-3, Your Honor. And this was also marked by the prosecution as their own. They have a separate marking for this, Your Honor.

**[00:14:13.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
This is part of the two-hour and so-and-so minute video?

**[00:14:17.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Correct, Your Honor. At any rate, Your

**[00:14:19.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Honor, if I may be allowed to finish... Counsel for the

**[00:14:21.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Prosecutor, kindly hold on. At

**[00:14:22.620] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
any rate, Your

**[00:14:23.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Honor... Council for

**[00:14:24.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
the Respondent.

**[00:14:25.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The chair is not yet done. And the annotation below the video, is that part of the marked video?

**[00:14:32.260] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
This is part, Your Honor, of a separate exhibit that is also part of the Articles of Impeachment Annex G., Your Honor. This is Mr. Kalilong's own transcription of the video. Just to be clarified. But who put it there? We just placed it there, Your Honor. So we will... We're making him identify actually the video as well as the appropriate transcription which are both part of the Articles of Impeachment and Annex G-9. So the question is, can you confirm for certain that these statements or any part thereof happened in real

**[00:15:15.980] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
life? Can you give me the timestamp, Your Honor?

**[00:15:18.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Timestamp 51:07. Your Honor, if I may refer to my notes.

**[00:15:25.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may do so, sir.

**[00:15:26.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Anong timestamp, sir?

**[00:15:30.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
51:07.

**[00:15:34.000] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
To help this Honorable Court, Your Honor, it appears on page 84, more or less, of the Articles of Impeachment, Annex G-9, Your Honor. This is the transcription of Agent John Mark Kalilong dated December 26, 2024.

**[00:15:55.570] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
For the record, Your Honor.

**[00:15:56.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted.

**[00:15:58.000] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Puwede kong patingin na lang?

**[00:16:02.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
51:07.

**[00:16:04.810] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Show it.

**[00:16:09.760] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, in the interest of time, can we confront the witness with our own copy?

**[00:16:19.410] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Your own copy of what, Counsel? Of

**[00:16:21.490] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
the Articles of Impeachment, Annex G. Niner. Well,

**[00:16:25.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel, Assisting Counsel for the Prosecutor is there. If in case there are any problems, kindly confirm. If indeed, that is the document being shown to the witness.

**[00:16:56.600] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Page 14. That is page 14 of the affidavit of transcription. Page 14.

**[00:17:22.300] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, I manifest that we are showing that specific portion on the transcript prepared by Agent Kalilong of the NBI.

**[00:17:45.200] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But actually, Your Honor, even without consultation, With the transcript, my answer is very simple. I'm just asking your honor. My question, I'm sorry, is very simple. My only question is, does he know for certain that these statements or any part of these statements happened in real life?

**[00:18:06.170] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So do

**[00:18:10.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you confirm that the statements were made by the Vice President, Mr. Witness?

**[00:18:15.330] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
It's here in the transcription, Your Honor, yes.

**[00:18:17.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No, no, no. My question is not whether she made the statement. My question is if you know, based on your personal knowledge, if any statement or a portion thereof happened in real life. That's the question.

**[00:18:32.850] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, Your Honor, the fact that we have the video on November 26 when the Vice President reiterated. What she uttered in November 23, 2024. At the same time, Your Honor, may we allow

**[00:18:48.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the witness to answer?

**[00:18:50.790] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, we invited the media personalities who have personal knowledge on that date and on that online press conference. And nung tinanong namin sila kung nag-participate sila, sabi nila yes, nakausap nila yung vice-presidente, nagbigay sila ng mga katanungan. So definitely yes, nangyari po iyon.

**[00:19:14.740] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, may we make a manifestation?

**[00:19:18.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, Counsel.

**[00:19:19.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, it appears that the witness is not being responsive to our question. He's talking about something that I did not ask. We are only focusing on this particular statement. We will show other statements later on. And we cannot get an answer from him. If

**[00:19:38.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
he knows. Counsel, Even I am confused with the question happened in real life. I think some of us are too.

**[00:19:47.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I'll be more specific. If the

**[00:19:48.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
question is kung alam niyo bang nangyari ito sa totoong buhay, ang sagot ng testigo ay sa pagkakaalam niya ay oo, base sa kanilang investigasyon at sinabi ng mga inimbitahan nilang testigo.

**[00:20:02.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, I'll clarify the question. Alright, in this statement, For example, the vice president said, there were threats to my life inside the Batasang Pambansa. Are you confirming that?

**[00:20:15.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
That is within the transcription here, sir.

**[00:20:17.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, my question to you is this. Did you investigate those threats to VP Sara's life? I'm not yet done. Did you investigate the threat to VP Sara's life during that time? Objection.

**[00:20:32.910] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Now, misleading, Your Honor. Because the question was, do you confirm that that statement is found in the transcription? As to the Vice President saying that there were threats to her life. And then the witness said, yes, I confirm that I can find it in the transcription. Now the next question of the good counsel is, so did you investigate the threats? That is the classic misleading question. Can we

**[00:20:58.690] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
get the ruling, Your Honor?

**[00:21:00.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
He's a lawyer. Atty. Lotoc is a lawyer and he knows exactly what's going on. Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer?

**[00:21:07.430] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yes, Your Honor. What's your answer?

**[00:21:09.450] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
What's the question, sir?

**[00:21:10.690] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
The question is, she mentioned there about the threats to his life. My question is simple. Did you investigate the threats to VP Sara's life during that time? You mean during the live stream, sir? During that time, correct. During that live stream. She mentioned that there were threats to her life.

**[00:21:26.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, based on our investigation, nangyari yung live stream. Between 11 p.m. 22 to 1 a.m. 23. And then nalaman namin nung kumalat siya sa social media nung mga hapon na, kaya nag-start kami ng investigation. At that time, hindi pa namin alam yung buong laman ng video na yan kasi nag-start pa lang kami. So I instructed Agent Kalilong na siya maging agent on case. And then kunin niya yung video, the whole video para sa authentication. Atty. Lutong, kindly

**[00:22:02.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
answer the question directly. So I get from your long answer that the answer is no?

**[00:22:07.870] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Specifically at that live stream moment, no, sir. Hindi pa namin

**[00:22:10.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
alamin. That was the

**[00:22:11.250] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
question of Atty. Vinluan, if you investigated at that time. So the answer is no?

**[00:22:16.190] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[00:22:16.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay. Please

**[00:22:17.930] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
proceed. But later on, you said you did an investigation. So are you admitting that there were threats to the life of VP Sara?

**[00:22:26.280] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Precisely, that's the reason why we sent a December 2, 2024 letter for VP Sara to shed light on our investigation.

**[00:22:39.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, I'll move on to a different part of the video. On page also of Exhibit D-1-145-A, this now pertains to timestamp 5930 onwards of the video recording.

**[00:22:59.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So page 15 of the affidavit of transcription, also by Agent Calilung of the NBI, dated December 26, 2024. Can we show that video and then provide the appropriate transcript? Can you play that again, please?

**[00:23:15.010] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Iyong Speaker mo, pinabayaan mong sayangin ang pera ng bayan. Paikot-ikot sa buong bansa, namimigay ng pera na parang kaniya iyong pera. E ba nga lagi ninyong sinasabi, separation of powers? Anong trabaho ng legislative branch? Gumawa ng batas.

**[00:23:53.150] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Anong ginagawa ni Martin Romualdez? Namimigay ng ayuda.

**[00:24:09.120] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Nagsasabi kung anong ibibigay, anong gagawin, sino ba ang—

**[00:24:18.990] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right. So my question to you is this. Having watched that video and read the transcript,

**[00:24:24.230] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
my question is very simple: do you know for sure if this statement by the Vice President, or any part thereof, happened in real life?

**[00:24:34.320] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, Your Honor, as I've said, I've answered it already. Noong inimbestigahan namin iyan, iyong video—

**[00:24:42.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
no answer will suffice, Your Honor.

**[00:24:45.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly answer more directly to save on the Court's time, Atty. Lotoc.

**[00:24:49.300] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, based on our investigation, yes, it happens in the natural order of things. Nangyari talaga yan.

**[00:24:54.250] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So in other words, you're admitting that Martin Romualdez goes around the country to distribute

**[00:25:01.470] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
money? I'm saying, nangyari ho iyong utterances na iyan.

**[00:25:04.610] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That's not my question. That's precisely my point. I'm not asking if she made the statements. I'm asking if the truth of these statements you have personal knowledge of. So be more direct in your answer. That's why I

**[00:25:16.950] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
have to object now, Your Honor, now. There are several statements made and then the witness is being asked, do you confirm the statements? Compound question. Exactly. That's the reason why we don't allow. There are so many statements. O sinasabi gumawa ng batas. So siguro yung tanong is, did this happen in real life? So this witness being confronted with several statements and he is being asked to answer a yes or no. That's why it's compound question.

**[00:25:43.190] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, my question is the statements or any part thereof, Your Honor. The witness is smart enough to answer. He can just clarify.

**[00:25:50.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The objection is sustained but not on that ground but rather on the ground that the witness is incompetent to testify as to the truth of the matter stated by the Vice President. He can only testify as to the fact that those statements were made only as to tenor but not as to the truth given that he only investigated and was not there. You may proceed, Counsel.

**[00:26:15.370] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In that case, Your Honor, if we confront also Just a manifestation, Your Honor. Yes, you may proceed. In other words, Your Honor, we would like to manifest, Your Honor, based on that ruling of the Court, that even if VP Sara said that she already talked to a person, then we cannot confirm the truth because this witness does not have personal knowledge. That's a conclusion, objection. That's just a manifestation for the Court's appreciation. Can I just

**[00:26:40.080] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
proceed with my next question, Your Honor? Can I counter

**[00:26:41.780] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
-manifestation, Your Honor, please? Counter-manifestation, please. To put into record, Your Honor, please.

**[00:26:46.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For about 15 seconds, counsel, yes. Okay,

**[00:26:49.110] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
The defense is entitled to their own conception of things. They're entitled to their own imagination. That's all.

**[00:26:55.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel may proceed with his cross.

**[00:26:57.750] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just to belabor this point, Your Honor. Annex D-1-145-A. Anyway, Your Honor, they showed around seven to eight videos yesterday, so we'll show about four. This pertains to timestamp 1:08:58. And we will also present page 17 of the affidavit of transcription, also by Agent Calilung, dated December 26, 2024. In this video clip, the Vice President mentioned the former Speaker of the House and the confidential funds of the Office of the President. Can we play that video?

**[00:27:36.200] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Hindi ka dumadaan ng contest, eh, kasi wala kang kalaban sa Tacloban. Binibili mo, pinapa-kidnap mo, pinapatay mo ang mga kalaban mo. Hindi ka dumaan ng contest. Alam mo lang, 'Bibilhin ko lahat ng tao.' You think money is everything. That is nothing new. It's money. Iyan naman iyong katotohanan. Walang presidente man, Vice President man. [unclear] Hindi ko nga alam kung mananalo ka pa ngayon sa Tacloban. Hindi na. Gusto mo sa lahat, sa buong Pilipinas, ibalik ka sa Kongreso? Hindi lahat ng tao pupunta riyan doon sa Tacloban. [unclear] Kayo, dumadaan sa [unclear] certification lang, congressman. One million, two million, pirma lang. Alam mo ba bakit alam ko? Kasi may confi din ako. Ako, sa DepEd, may confi ako sa OVP. Sa amin, nire-require ako ng resibo. Alam ko certification lang ang [unclear], pero nagko-comply ako. Bigay lahat ng resibo. Ikaw, confi mo lang. Hindi mo nga ata pirma; pirma lang ng staff mo iyan, eh. [unclear] Lumalabas pera. Pirma ninyo lang. Confidential funds, Office of the President, iyong Speaker. Hindi ko nasabing kriminal siya. Tingnan ninyo iyong kaso niya sa United States of America.

**[00:31:09.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right. Again, my question based on this video is very simple, and this pertains to Martin Romualdez and the President.

**[00:31:16.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Can you confirm, or do you know for sure, that these statements about Martin Romualdez or the President are true?

**[00:31:26.800] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay. Your Honor, I will object on the same ground, and I hope the Presiding Officer will make the same ruling.

**[00:31:37.020] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
This witness is incompetent. I know what the defense is doing,

**[00:31:39.680] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Your Honor.

**[00:31:40.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection. Incompetent. This witness is highly incompetent

**[00:31:44.320] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
as to whether he knows whether those statements are in fact

**[00:31:48.180] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
happening. What's the

**[00:31:48.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
ground for the objection? Can we just be informed of the ground for the objection? I just said it. Incompetent. This witness is incompetent.

**[00:31:55.740] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Can we get the ruling, Your Honor?

**[00:31:57.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The Chair made an earlier ruling already. The witness is incompetent to testify as to the truth of the matter. But since, Atty. Lotoc, you're a

**[00:32:04.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
lawyer, I will... Give it this time to the Council for the Respondents. Kindly respond. Since you're a

**[00:32:13.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
lawyer, you should know the proper answer to this question. Kindly respond to the

**[00:32:18.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
question of Council for the Respondents.

**[00:32:20.940] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, I do not know personally about the factual circumstances. What I know is that she uttered those statements.

**[00:32:32.850] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We're satisfied with that answer, Your Honor. One last video. One last video. On page 87 of the Articles of Impeachment, Annex G. 9, this is timestamp 1-12-43. This is quite a lengthy video, but not as lengthy. But this is our last video, so we beg the court's indulgence. The affidavit of transcription, page 17, also of Agent Park Kalilong, dated December 26, 2024. Are we ready with that video?

**[00:33:07.640] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Council for the Prosecutors. Because I know the Council will ask the same question. So at the same time, Your Honor, what is the objection? I'm not yet done. I'm

**[00:33:16.680] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
not yet done.

**[00:33:16.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly let the Council for the Prosecutors finish. Relax.

**[00:33:19.940] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Now, Your Honor, if the same line of question will be asked, Okay. Your Honor. Wait, wait. I'm not yet done. He cannot preempt Your Honor. I'm not yet done. The prosecution is willing to stipulate that yes, The Vice President uttered that statement as to the fact of her uttering the statement.

**[00:33:38.360] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We have a different question, Your Honor, just to satisfy his query.

**[00:33:41.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
All right. So I guess the objection or manifestation is withdrawn, and counsel for respondent may proceed with the showing or playing of the video.

**[00:33:52.840] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Kainin ninyo dito sa offices. Lahat ng juice, lahat ng mamahaling wine.

**[00:34:12.160] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Pero iyong taong-bayan, iyong taong-bayan, ninyo sa [unclear] rice, iyong taong-bayan na hindi ninyo pinupuntahan sa mga komunidad nila, anong sabi nila? Asin lang. Okay na. May kanin naman. Ganiyan ang bayan natin. Okay na lang kami sa asin. [unclear] nakahanap ka ng bayan na ang tao, because of their hopelessness, because there is no functioning government, umaasa na lang sa asin.

**[00:35:15.040] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
na nga lang abogado si Ernie Lopez eh.

**[00:35:20.400] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Kasi alam niya kung ano sasabihin niya doon sa mga pumasok sa kwarto niya.

**[00:35:27.930] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Na take note, nag-nakao pa ng cellphone. Ano

**[00:35:32.550] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
ka nakahanap? Papasok ka, nanangkawin mo yung cellphone. Nadalhin mo pa yung tao, Princess.

**[00:35:51.460] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
You're raising your hand.

**[00:36:00.640] Princess Maui**  
Hello? Naririnig po ba ako? Princess Maui?

**[00:36:06.610] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Yes.

**[00:36:07.820] Princess Maui**  
Oh, thank you. Good morning po, Madam Vice President. Thank you so much na po pala sa dalan niyong Hopia nung hearing na pumunta kayo for PRRD. Kami yung nasa likod niyo po, yung tinawag nyo ng bastos kasi pumalak pa kami because of Congresswoman Cardema.

**[00:36:27.390] Princess Maui**  
Thank you ma'am. Nakakain kami ha po po eh. Natatakot kumain ang pagkain doon mamamaya eh. Ma'am mag-iingat po kayo ha. Nasa teritoryo kayo ng kalaban.

**[00:36:35.330] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Okay lang po kayo po ma'am kasi sila naman ako na eh.

**[00:36:38.170] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Sila talaga yung bastos eh. You reap what you sow.

**[00:36:43.880] Princess Maui**  
Mag-iingat po kayo kasi sa dinami-rami po ng inyong mga pasabog ngayong gabi, it seems like marami po talaga kayong alam about them no? Dahil sa pagkakasama niyo sa kanila. During the campaign and during the 2022 elections, baka po mamaya kasi totoo yung mga narinig namin or yung, I don't know if it's true, na meron daw silang Operation Romanovs and baka bala kayong ubusin ang inyong pamilya dahil hadlang kayo sa kanilang mga balakin in the future. So mag-iingat po kayo. Kami po kasi na, kami ng EDSA Friday group, kami yung bumababa every Friday dyan sa EDSA because we believe yan yung tamang venue. Sa dinami-narami na ng problema natin, ang kaya naman po namin gawin ay manawagan na bumaba na yan. Eh ano po kaya ang remedy naman ninyong mga nasa posisyon or nung mga kayang labanan itong napakarami na pong ginagawang corruption at krimen laban sa taong bayan? Ano po ang pwede ninyong maging remedy para matapos na ito? Lalo't nagsisigaw na po ang taong bayan na mag-people power na.

**[00:37:53.100] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Yes. Huwag ka mag-alala, ma'am, sa security ko kasi may kinausap na ako na tao. Sinabi ko sa kanya, kapag pinatay ako, patayin mo si BBM, si Lisa Araneta at si Martin Romandes. No joke.

**[00:38:12.470] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
No joke. Nag-deal-in na ako, ma'am.

**[00:38:16.430] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Kapag namatay ako, sabi ko, huwag ka tumigila hanggang hindi mo magpatay sila.

**[00:38:23.500] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
And then he said yes.

**[00:38:28.280] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
So, alam mo, ma'am, Ang laban nandun sa loob ng palasyo. Yan ang problema.

**[00:38:51.370] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
We appreciate yung expression ninyo ng disgust, ng pagkamuhi,

**[00:39:10.590] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Hopelessness, kasi it reflects kung ano yung nararamdaman ng

**[00:39:19.190] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
marami, milyon, milyon. Alam ko yan, ma'am, kasi kahit saan ako pumunta, ako ang sinasabihan, binoto namin yan dahil sinabi mo, iboto namin.

**[00:39:36.450] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
So, yes, ma'am. Maraming salamat sa ginagawa ninyo. Dahil sa ginagawa ninyo, I'm sure nakikita yan. Ang taong bayan, and naa-appreciate nila yan. Marami sa ating mga kababayan ang gusto sumali sa inyo. Pero sa sobrang hirap ng

**[00:39:57.050] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
buhay ngayon, hindi nila maiwanan yung mga trabaho nila at hanap buhay nila para pumunta sa daan. Bakit sila naghihirap? Bakit?

**[00:40:11.010] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Dahil sa gobyerno. Di ba dapat yung gobyerno na natin ang nagpapagaan ng buhay ng tao? Bakit ang gobyerno natin ang nagpapahirap lalo sa tao?

**[00:40:26.300] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Kasi gusto ba nila lagi nalang mahirap ang mga tao para madali mapasunod? May mga lugar kami sa Mindanao na ganyan ang mga politiko. Gusto nila mahirap lahat. E bahugan lang nila ang puwarta.

**[00:40:49.380] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Governor na sila. Mayor na sila. Congressman na sila. Hanapin niyo ma'am!

**[00:40:56.010] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Yung mga lugar na sobrang hirap sa Mindanao, tingnan nyo anong gawain ng politiko. Pinapakain lang ng pera ang tao. Pinabastos yung kanilang pagkatao dahil wala silang pakialam. Erwin

**[00:41:21.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Atty. Lotoc, she said a lot of statements in that portion of the video. In fact, that statement included the statement which you investigated, correct?

**[00:41:29.390] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Included in the transcription, sir. All right.

**[00:41:34.640] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now you get the point. My question to you is this. Can you confirm now that the statements she made about BBM, FL, and the former Speaker, and the Congressman, relating

**[00:41:50.490] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
to various acts of corruption, are true and happened in real life?

**[00:41:55.390] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
As to the existence of that utterances, yes, sir.

**[00:42:01.070] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, so you just admitted that the congressmen are all correct. Thank you for that. That

**[00:42:06.050] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
That is a foul side remark. Counsel is twisting the answer of the witness. Can I finish? Can I finish?

**[00:42:16.090] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Can I finish? The witness said that he confirmed as to the fact that the utterances were made. That's why, Your Honor, I object.

**[00:42:25.950] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly be more specific.

**[00:42:29.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, you know what's being asked for.

**[00:42:32.540] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[00:42:33.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Finish and complete your answer to avoid the misunderstanding.

**[00:42:36.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, based on our investigation, as to the existence of the utterances, yeah, dahil may mga pieces of evidence kami. But whether or not nangyari yan, wala akong personal knowledge, sir.

**[00:42:50.180] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. In the same way, You also do not have personal knowledge that VP Sara contracted an assassin, correct?

**[00:42:57.370] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, the video dated November 26, 2024. The Vice President reiterated and in fact—

**[00:43:02.970] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just, it's answerable by Yes or No, Your Honor.

**[00:43:04.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
How can he be— Counsel, counsels, kindly settle down. This is not a college debate. Atty. Lotoc, the question was simple. Kindly answer the question directly.

**[00:43:17.830] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. You do not have personal knowledge. That utterance as made by the vice president that she contracted a person, I do believe that's her because of the pieces of evidence that we've gathered, sir.

**[00:43:30.570] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No, I'm not asking whether or not she said those statements. I'm asking if you have personal knowledge based on this that the Vice President really contracted an assassin—sorry, a person.

**[00:43:44.770] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Objection. Asked and answered. Second time around.

**[00:43:48.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Based on our investigation, Your Honor, we do believe that the Vice President—

**[00:43:58.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, you're a smart man. Just answer the question. Do you have personal knowledge?

**[00:44:08.460] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
You said that as to the other parts, you do not have personal knowledge. But now, my question to you is as to the part whether VP Sara talked to that person about BBM, the First Lady, and the Speaker: do you have personal knowledge or not? Pwede ko pong i-explain, Your Honor? No, just answer the question yes or no.

**[00:44:29.700] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, this is not the first time you attended a trial. I'm sure counsel for the prosecutors and redirect will be able to clarify whatever you want to clarify. But in the meantime, answer the question of counsel for the respondent.

**[00:44:43.980] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, we do believe that... The vice president had contracted, but I don't have personal knowledge. Kung personal knowledge ang gusto niyong malaman, pero we do believe based on the evidence that we've gathered and based on our investigation.

**[00:45:01.040] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Thank you for that admission.

**[00:45:05.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. The presscon was broadcasted to the general public, correct?

**[00:45:13.070] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Social media, sir, yes. In other words, everybody listening to it could hear the statements made by VP Sara? We believe so, sir, yes. Are you aware that the vice president is a lawyer?

**[00:45:24.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Of course.

**[00:45:25.760] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That he has, of course, a law degree and passed the bar exams?

**[00:45:28.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[00:45:29.460] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
With the first attempt and with the rating of 80%, are you aware of this? I heard it in the news, sir. Oh, she has a higher grade than most of the lawyers here. But are you aware that she also worked as a court attorney?

**[00:45:40.920] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Relevance. Relevance. Objection. Relevance.

**[00:45:43.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel for the respondent, kindly avoid those disparaging statements given that... There are a lot of lawyers here and you don't know what their grades are. We

**[00:45:53.080] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
will comply, Your Honor. So my question to you is this. If she was serious about her alleged plan involving BBM, FL, and the former speaker, does it make sense for her that she would publicly announce this to the general public? If you know. I don't know that, Your Honor. Alright.

**[00:46:19.720] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In fact, you showed, in your direct examination, you also showed portions of the October 18 presscon, correct?

**[00:46:26.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[00:46:27.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And that presscon was also done in general, before the general public, correct?

**[00:46:33.430] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I believe so, sir.

**[00:46:34.650] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Based on your investigation or your experience as an investigator, kapag may balak bang patayin ng isang tao, sinasabi ba nila yung plano nila sa general public?

**[00:46:46.970] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, kapag may grave threats, sir, naririnig iyon ng iba.

**[00:46:53.580] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
my more important question to you is this. Did VP Sara directly say her statements to BBM, FL, and the former Speaker?

**[00:47:08.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, the fact na sinabi niya yan in public, definitely narinig niya ng Presidente.

**[00:47:13.280] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
May we ask for a more responsive answer?

**[00:47:16.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
kindly answer. The answer is actually quite obvious. It's a simple question. Did the Vice President utter those statements directly towards the persons allegedly threatened?

**[00:47:27.980] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
We believe so, Your Honor, because the utterances was made in public.

**[00:47:34.370] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So what's the

**[00:47:35.310] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
answer? Did VP Sara directly say those statements to BBM? FL and the former speaker. Ascon answered, he said, we believe so. But we did not get the responsive answer, Your Honor. Can we ask the witness to give a more responsive answer? That's his answer. We believe so.

**[00:47:52.830] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Yes. That's a

**[00:47:53.470] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
yes. That's so clear.

**[00:47:54.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Without putting words into the mouth of the witness, I will be the one to ask. Atty. Lotoc, you meant yes, right?

**[00:48:01.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[00:48:03.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Proceed, counsel.

**[00:48:07.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright.

**[00:48:09.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Are you aware that in one interview following the press con,

**[00:48:15.710] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
BBM mentioned that he was open for reconciliation with the Vice President.

**[00:48:20.370] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I'm not

**[00:48:20.950] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
aware of that. Not aware, okay. I'll make you aware today. Can we play D-4-12, please?

**[00:48:29.070] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Mr. President, kayo po ba sa puso ninyo, gusto nyo bang makipagkasundo

**[00:48:35.070] President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.**  
pa sa mga Duterte? Oo! Ako ayoko ng gulo. Gusto ko makasundo sa lahat ng tao. Mas maganda. Marami na akong kaaway. Hindi ko kailangan ng kaaway. Kailangan kong kaibigan. Kagaya na ang sabi ko sa'yo. Pagka... Magkakonfes ako dito. Pwede naman po. Para akong pari po dito ngayon ako.

**[00:49:02.290] President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.**  
Ewan ko. Kahit hanggat maaari. Ako ang habol ko.

**[00:49:07.810] President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.**  
iyong stability, peaceful, para magawa namin iyong trabaho namin. Kaya ako, lagi akong bukas sa ganyan. I'm always open to any approach na, halika, magtulungan tayo. Kahit hindi tayo magkasundo sa pulisiya, hindi tayo magkasundo, gawin na iyong trabaho, pero huwag na tayong [unclear].

**[00:49:28.440] President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.**  
All right. Nangugulo. Huwag na natin, tanggalin natin iyong gulo.

**[00:49:34.900] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Atty. Lotoc, so based on that video,

**[00:49:40.740] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
BBM was open to reconcile with VP Sara, correct? Anong date po ng video, sir? We will provide the date in a while. They're researching on it. But even without the date, you can confirm. Hindi, gusto kong malaman kung anong date, sir. So

**[00:49:55.320] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
you cannot answer the question without us providing the date? Tinignan ko

**[00:49:59.560] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
kung ilang buwan na yan after noong November 23. Alright.

**[00:50:06.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Move on, Council. While you're checking on the date, you can go back to that topic.

**[00:50:12.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, assuming...

**[00:50:13.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
that this happened after, do you still maintain that BBM really believed, in his mind, that VP Sara would harm or kill him?

**[00:50:26.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
How would I know that, Your Honor? Precisely. So you don't know. You cannot know that, Your Honor, correct? Because you cannot enter the state of mind of the President.

**[00:50:36.910] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Unless there is a basis, Your Honor, gaya ng investigation namin sa utterances ni VP na may mga circumstances. Pag iyan lang ang nakita ko, siyempre hindi namin ma-establish iyong state of mind ng Presidente.

**[00:50:52.480] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
isn't it in your affidavit of investigation, you mentioned about the state of mind of the president?

**[00:51:01.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
State of mind of the president? Correct.

**[00:51:04.170] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
After the statements of VP Sara, you interpreted the mind. It's like you went into the mind of the alleged offended parties, BBM, FL. And the speaker, and based on your own interpretation, you determined or concluded that they were threatened. Is that not the case?

**[00:51:23.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, ang sinabi doon ng presidente, nakakabahala yung mga narinig natin itong mga nakaraang araw. And then isa itong kriminal na pagtatangka, ito'y aking papalagaan. So, at that moment, the president took the utterances serious and real, sir. But

**[00:51:39.280] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
you just... Based that on his own statement, you did not enter his state of mind, correct? Objection, Your Honor. I think, where is this leading?

**[00:51:49.590] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
What's the objection? A witness is being asked to enter the state of mind.

**[00:51:52.190] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
What's the

**[00:51:52.210] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
basis for the objection, Your Honor? Incompetent. Incompetent.

**[00:51:57.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Incompetent.

**[00:51:58.730] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
The witness already said that, based on their investigation and the statement of the President after the event, they determined that the President felt threatened.

**[00:52:09.940] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
And the question now is: did you enter his state of mind?

**[00:52:13.280] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, I'm now objecting on the reason that this person is incompetent to answer.

**[00:52:20.580] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, we will be satisfied with just the basis. If he had said 'incompetent,' we would ask for a ruling. He doesn't have to lecture, Your Honor.

**[00:52:28.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the record, kindly reform, counsel. I think I know where you're getting at.

**[00:52:32.720] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right. My question to you is this: do you have a background in forensic psychology?

**[00:52:39.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Do you have a background on behavioral

**[00:52:41.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
psychology? Well, we were taught about subject

**[00:52:44.480] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
matter in the academy. Yes or no will do. Do you have a forensic psychology department in NBI's Cybercrime Division?

**[00:52:55.290] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Forensic psychology? Yes. We have BSD. We have a medical legal department. Medical legal only? Okay. We have a psychiatrist. We have a psychologist. We have a...

**[00:53:10.840] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
All of those, sir.

**[00:53:13.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, in other words, you do not have a professional assessment of the mind of BBM when you conducted this affidavit of investigation, correct? Okay, sir.

**[00:53:27.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
The investigation, ganito po ang nangyari. Nung nag-comment yung presidente na nakakabahala yung mga utterances, Pwede lang po doon, tinignan namin yung comment ng iba't ibang government agencies na ganoon din yung kanilang reaksyon. Nakakapahala yung sinabi ng vicepresidente, magiging issue yan ng national security. Pero lang po yun, kinonsider din namin yung comments at impression ng mga media personalities na nag-participate doon sa online press conference. Sabi nila na-shock sila, na bigla sila, hindi sila… Atty.

**[00:54:08.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
parang totoo iyong galit ng Vice President. And then aside from that, from those facts, ganoon din ang ginawa namin sa former Speaker sa kaniyang reaction. So taking all these facts and circumstances, na-establish namin na indeed iyong reaction ng Presidente is trinato niya na seryoso at totoo iyong utterances na iyon na ginawa ni VP Sara noong November 23.

**[00:54:31.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Atty. So, ito ho. Kaya lang dito, ipapakita niyo sa akin yan. Yan lang mag-isa. Hindi namin nakita yung ibang circumstances. Hindi ho ako makakapagsabi kung sa mind ng presidente is pinatawad na ba niya, ayaw na niya, hindi na ba niya kinukonsider yung mga threat na yon. Pag ganyan lang yun, honor. Sa investigation kasi kailangan makita namin yung ibang-ibang circumstance. Para ma-establish namin whether or not, ah, ito yung ibig niyang sabihin. Ito yung intention niya.

**[00:55:04.390] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
For the record, Your Honor, the date of the video is May 19, 2025. So, this came after college.

**[00:55:10.610] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2025. So, mga seven months, sir? Yeah, seven months.

**[00:55:15.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, so, based on your experience as an investigator, baka pwedeng ano na?

**[00:55:21.060] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, hindi sa sufficient para makita namin kasi...

**[00:55:27.910] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Anyway, we know for a fact na—

**[00:55:28.450] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
we're satisfied with your first answer. The

**[00:55:31.670] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
witness is still answering.

**[00:55:33.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I didn't even ask a question, your honor.

**[00:55:35.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You did, counsel, when you gave the date and asked for his opinion. Kindly finish your answer.

**[00:55:41.710] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Thank you, your honor. As lawyers, we know for a fact that the state of mind can manifest based on the overt acts of the speaker. So dito kasi, kung ito lang ang pagbabatayan namin, Then we try to establish yung intent or yung state of mind ng presidente. Kulang ho yan. So siguro kung may makikita pa kami yung ibang circumstances na magpapatunay na binaliwala niya niya yung utterances, pinatawad niya niya yung vice-presidente, and things like that, then we can somehow say mukha nga ang totoo yung sinabi ng presidente na pinatawad niya.

**[00:56:23.390] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right, but I'll move on to a different point.

**[00:56:27.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Before counsel for the respondent continues, what is the pressure of Senator Judge Cayetano? Just

**[00:56:32.470] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
one specific clarification on that point, just so that we don't lose the point. The gentleman may proceed. Excuse me lang sa prosecution and sa defense. Witness, one point lang, maybe one or two questions on that point. Sabi mo, the President, sa pananaw mo, and yung iba... Speaker Martin felt threatened.

**[00:56:55.070] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Base doon sa investigation namin. Base sa investigation at base sa video. Base sa video, sa investigation at sa ibang testimony.

**[00:57:02.880] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
So if they felt threatened, that means tingin nila totoo yung sinabi ni VP Sara na patayin sila.

**[00:57:14.410] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Kasi they wouldn't feel threatened if they don't think na she meant it na patayin silang tatlo, right?

**[00:57:21.360] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In our investigation,

**[00:57:24.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Trinato nila iyong utterances as seryoso. Yes.

**[00:57:27.440] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
So they won't feel threatened unless tingin nila seryoso yung threat.

**[00:57:31.890] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
According to them, seryoso yung threat. Yes. Okay.

**[00:57:34.450] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
But the threat was, pag pinatayin niyo ako, papatayin ko kayo. So kung hindi naman nila sila balak patayin, why would they feel threatened? Unless you're saying now, you think, balak nga nilang papatayin si Vice President.

**[00:57:49.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Actually, sir, ito, from the point of view of law enforcement like us, Yun nga yung naging alarming na issue dun sa amin, Sara. I

**[00:57:58.660] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
agree. I'm also, Mr. Vitez, I'm also alarmed with the language, with saying that I'm alarmed with what's happening in our country, in flood control, etc. But that's not my point. My point is, in your investigation, para maging grave threat, kailangan yung party na trinetten feels threatened. Pero ang sinabi ni VP Sara, pag pinatay ako, patayin silang tatlo. So kung wala naman silang tatlo balak na patayin siya, why would they feel threatened? Did that not come into your mind as an investigator? What

**[00:58:31.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
comes into your mind, your honor, is yun nga, yung possibility na God forbids may mangyari sa BP na hindi naman alam nung tatlo, then matitrigger ngayon yung instruction, then papatayin yung tatlo na hindi naman nila alam. At the same time, may mga ibang

**[00:58:46.120] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
grupo— Then in that case, hindi ba logical because you're the president of the Philippines, you order the PSC, To make sure that walang mangyari sa kanya rather than baliktad na tinanggalan siya ng security.

**[00:58:58.780] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
I'm just following your logic. I won't argue. I'm satisfied, Mr. President. I'm just trying to figure out nga, no? How you came about yung gave threats given ang sinabi niya kung papatayin ako. So, finish

**[00:59:11.300] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
your answer so that we can— We qualify that gave threats sa term namin as event-based condition na yun nga pag nangyari yung event, Atty.

**[00:59:21.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
magti-trigger ngayon iyong threat ng Vice President. Now insofar as na-threaten sila, iyong sinasabi mo po, sir, na pag namatay si Vice President, saka papatayin ngayon ng tao na inutusan niya iyong tatlo. Ang isa sa alarming, na very alarming part na nakita namin, iyong mga sasakay ho na grupo

**[00:59:50.080] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kasi, God forbid, puwedeng mawala ang Vice President, but not necessarily sila iyong dahilan.

**[01:00:00.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Mamatay siya for one reason or the other. Then, ang impression na ng marami, ang may kasalanan nito, iyong tatlo. So, again, magkakalabo-labo na iyan. May sasakay na sa issue, thinking na pag pinatay nila iyong tatlo, ang sisisihin ngayon iyong kampo ni Vice President kasi may utterances na ginawa ang Vice President to that effect. So, iyon ho iyong sa investigation namin. Now, insofar as

**[01:00:27.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Pumasok ho yung elements ng grave threats. Yeah, we believe na pumasok yung elements ng grave threats kasi na-satisfy ho lahat nung elements ng grave threats based on the

**[01:00:38.880] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
revised manual. I'm

**[01:00:40.570] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
assessing your answer but malayo na malapit yung sagot mo dun sa triggering events ha. Kasi parang logical diba? Dahil sinabi niya yun baka may gumawa. Hindi nga eh mag-trigger, papatay sa kanya. So para ma-trigger na patayin ang Pangulo, you're saying that VP Sara is asking other people to kill her so that they can kill Marcos. Sana sinabi na lang niya patayin niya si Marcos. Sabi mo i-trigger but anyway, I'm trying to process but hindi logical yung sinabi mo that event will trigger. Because the event that will trigger the assassination on the tree is the killing of the Vice President. And the Vice President will not tell people, kill me so that you kill them.

**[01:01:22.950] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Precisely, Your Honor. Ang death kasi, for instance, mamatay ang Vice President, it does not necessarily follow na iyong tatlo iyong lang papatay, base doon sa appearances. Puwede kasing mamatay ang Vice President for one reason or the other. And again, since walang makakaalam kung sino ang pumatay diyan, ang impression ng mga tao ngayon, mati-trigger ngayon iyong instruction. Pag na-trigger iyong instruction, puwede na ngayong sumakay iyong iba-ibang grupo, thinking na kahit mabulilyaso, ang sisisihin dito ang Vice President, kasi nga may utterances na ginawa ang Vice President in public. From the point of view of law enforcement, ang gulo noon, Your Honor. It's a matter of national security.

**[01:02:03.070] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
It's a matter of national security, Your Honor.

**[01:02:07.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Council, for the respondent, may proceed with his cross.

**[01:02:12.580] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So just to, before I leave this point, at any rate, you made all those observations and conclusions without any background on forensic.

**[01:02:22.190] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
What do you mean? Psychology, correct? I don't have background for forensic psychology.

**[01:02:26.350] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay, that's enough.

**[01:02:28.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, I'll go on to a different point. Let's talk about the context of these statements. The press con included a question and answer portion.

**[01:02:39.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Again, sir? The press con included a question and answer portion.

**[01:02:44.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, I

**[01:02:44.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
think so. And the VP Sara's statement, which you investigated, was an answer. To a question that was asked during the presscon.

**[01:02:57.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:03:00.130] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And in fact, the focus of your investigation was VP Sara's answer. Correct?

**[01:03:07.190] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
What kind of answer, sir?

**[01:03:08.610] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Answer to the question asked in the presscon.

**[01:03:10.830] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Can you tell me the specific questions and the specific answers?

**[01:03:13.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
You were the one who investigated it and you don't know the statement that

**[01:03:16.230] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
you investigated?

**[01:03:16.950] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Marami hong questions doon, maraming answers.

**[01:03:19.450] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Exactly. Objection, vague.

**[01:03:21.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sustained. Kindly reform, counsel.

**[01:03:23.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright.

**[01:03:25.750] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In our exhibit D-1-145A, I will read the transcription. This is the transcription also by John Mark Kalilong, dated December 26, 2024. A certain Princess Maui asked, Mag -iingat po kayo kasi sa dinami-rami ng pasabog ninyo ngayong gabi, It seems like marami po talaga kayong alam about them dahil sa pagkakasama ninyo sa kanila during the campaign and during the 2022 elections. Baka po mamaya kasi totoo yung mga naririnig namin, I don't know if it's true, na meron daw silang Operation Romanov. And baka bala kayong ubusin ang inyong pamilya dahil hadlang kayo sa kanilang mga bala in the future. So mag-iingat po kayo. My question to you is this. Will you agree that based on this question by one Princess Maui, there was also a threat against VP Sara and her family, namely Operation Romanov?

**[01:04:32.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, sabi ko nga, narinig ko iyong term na Romanov noong binigkas iyon ni Mayor Baste during the Maisug rally. Other than that, wala kaming validated information about Operation Romanov. But you watched this video, correct? So you heard it also during that time? Iyan ho iyong sabi ni Princess Maui, sir. Nag-invite kami kay Princess Maui. Tinanong ko iyong agent on case kung nag-invite ba tayo kay Princess Maui; ang sabi ng agent on case, hindi raw siya nag-appear. All right, kasi we want to clarify things.

**[01:05:04.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
With the permission of counsel for respondent, what is the pleasure of Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo?

**[01:05:14.180] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Mr. Presiding Officer, kahapon kasi nabanggit ko yung Romanov and I did mention na para sa akin nagmula yung salitang Romanov. Atty. Mayor

**[01:05:25.830] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Mayor Baste Duterte, when

**[01:05:28.050] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
during a rally sa Maisug in Davao. So ang tanong ko ngayon kay Mr. Witness: natatandaan pa ba kung ano iyong sinabi ni Mayor Baste Duterte patungkol doon sa Romanovs that night?

**[01:05:43.510] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Sir. I will try if I remember it right. Ang sabi niya, Mr. President, sabi niya, remember what happened to the Romanovs.

**[01:05:56.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
If I'm not mistaken, sir, parang ang sinasabi niya kasi mayroong... No, I

**[01:06:02.400] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
think when you go to bed tonight, continue.

**[01:06:05.140] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Sabi po yan.

**[01:06:06.700] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay.

**[01:06:07.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
When you go to bed tonight, think about the Romanovs. Yun po yata yung pagkasabi.

**[01:06:14.660] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Parang sinasabi niya na baka mangyari sa pamilya niyo yun gaya ng nangyari sa inyo noong 1996.

**[01:06:22.060] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kung tama yung memory ko, sir. Parang ganun po ang sinasabi ni Mayor Bastet.

**[01:06:28.910] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Kaya nga, Mr. President Officer, nagtataka ako na binanggit yan ni Princess Maui doon sa press conference, sa online press conference ni VP Sara, yung Romano na banta for Sara Duterte when in fact, it was Bastet Duterte ang ibitaw ng salita na iyon. Warning sa First Family. So, which is which, Mr. Witness? Para sa'yo, saan ba

**[01:06:56.420] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
talaga yung Romanov nag-umpisa? At sino ba talaga dapat mag-ingat doon sa banta ng Romanov?

**[01:07:02.300] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, and so far as our investigation is concerned, since nag-start yan doon kay Mayor Baste, at wala ho kaming ma-validate na ibang Romanov operations na nangyari.

**[01:07:16.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think nag-start yan sa kanila, sir. Sa kapatid ng vice-presidente.

**[01:07:23.620] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Thank you, Mr. Witness. No other questions? Mr. Presiding Officer?

**[01:07:28.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted. Entered into the records. And counsel for the respondent may continue with his cross.

**[01:07:33.700] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. So you mentioned that just now that Mayor Bastet said, think about the Romanovs, correct?

**[01:07:42.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yan yung statement ng Mayor Bastet, sir. But

**[01:07:45.930] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I'm asking, Operation Romanov eh. So hindi naman think about the Romanovs. My question to you is this.

**[01:07:53.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
With the permission of counsel for the respondent, Senator Tulfo seeks recognition again. What is the pleasure of Senator Tulfo? I

**[01:07:59.630] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
just want to make it clear, Mr. Presiding Officer, na yung threat na yun, yung Romanov na salita, it was used to warn as a threat to the first family. The word Romanov came from the mouth. Of President, I mean Mayor Bastet Duterte, na para bang binabantaan niya yung first family. You follow me, Mr. Witness? Yes, sir.

**[01:08:28.390] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Tama po yan.

**[01:08:29.350] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Thank you.

**[01:08:31.220] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted. Council may proceed.

**[01:08:33.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, that's my question. Can the Witness be allowed to answer that question with a manifestation first before he allows?

**[01:08:42.560] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly repeat the question because even I forgot the question,

**[01:08:45.460] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Council. You mentioned that Mayor Bastet said that statement, think about the Romanovs, etc. Yes, sir. But he did not mention Operation Romanov. It was Princess Maui who mentioned the word Operation Romanov. And I know you don't have, I mean, I personally don't have any knowledge about what Mayor Bastet said and that is not the subject of this case. Let's just stick to the facts of this case. In the video, it was Princess Maui who said Operation Romanov. Now, will you agree with me that based on that question, there was also a threat against VP Sara and her family? That's the question.

**[01:09:23.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
According to the question, sir, yes.

**[01:09:26.670] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Now, you mentioned yesterday that you can motu proprio investigate threats against the Vice President.

**[01:09:37.550] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Under the law, sir, yes.

**[01:09:38.850] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
My next question is very simple. Did you conduct... A separate investigation on Operation Romano.

**[01:09:48.280] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, since ang focus ng operations namin, sir, is cybercrime investigation, I think ang makakasagot niyan yung intelligence service namin, sir. Insofar as the cybercrime division is concerned, ang focus namin, crimes committed by, through, and with the use of information and communication technology. As to the fact whether or not may Operation Romanov, ang makakasagot po niyan either yung intelligence service o yung director namin, sir.

**[01:10:17.660] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So insofar as you are concerned, there is no ongoing investigation on Operation Romanov?

**[01:10:24.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, ang focus ng investigation namin doon sa grave threat and then inciting to sedition against the Vice President insofar as the existence of whether or not may Operation Romanov. Siguro makakasagot niyan sir yung Intelligence Service, yung Director hoon namin.

**[01:10:43.160] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, so no. At any rate, are you aware of any, if the Vice President was the target of unauthorized intelligence or surveillance operations?

**[01:10:58.940] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I'm not aware sir.

**[01:11:00.650] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Alright, with the permission of council, chair will recognize Senator Judge Pangilinan thereafter, Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo.

**[01:11:09.330] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Just one or two quick questions on the issue

**[01:11:13.830] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
of Princess Maui

**[01:11:16.070] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
and itong investigation na sinasabing inimbisigahan ba yung threat against the Vice President. Kung hypothetically dumating si Princess Maui at nagpaliwanag,

**[01:11:29.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
tungkol sa Operation Romanov at sinabi niya ang detalye, kikilos ba ang cybercrime?

**[01:11:37.570] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Ano ang gagawin ninyo kung nakuha ninyo iyong ganoong klaseng information? Ang problema, sabi nga ninyo kanina, hindi nga humarap. But as in any other case, kung may humarap at pinag-usapan at sinabi ganito yung threat, What is the standard operating procedure of the NBI?

**[01:11:57.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
We validate first the information, sir. And then pag-confirm na, then we will start case build-up, sir. Thank you. Thank

**[01:12:05.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you. Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo, what is your pleasure, sir?

**[01:12:14.600] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Just want to direct my question to the witness here.

**[01:12:22.610] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:12:23.610] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Yung Romano Platt,

**[01:12:27.030] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Well, aside from what Senator Judge Tulfo said that came from Bastet, but I picked it up doon sa video na pinalabas kanina ng defense. Yes,

**[01:12:39.280] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor.

**[01:12:39.640] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Yung Romano Platt versus Sara according to Princess Maui. Did you take that information seriously or not?

**[01:12:48.690] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. That's the reason why nung marinig namin, umakita namin yung question ni Princess Maui about the Romano. We conducted an open source investigation. Tinignan namin baka meron. Yun nga ang nakita namin yung January 2024 during Maiso Grali, if I'm not mistaken, yung the term, the word Romano ang nagbigkas nun si Mayor Baste, Your Honor.

**[01:13:18.270] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Alright. So, yung statement ni Princess Maui sa video, How do you rate that info? Sa inyo po, sa NBI, sa mga intelligence agencies, yung mga informations po ninyo, may rating. Tama po ba? Correct me if I'm wrong here, Mr. Witness. For example, pag yung information po ninyo, pag yung information po na natanggap ninyo, ay may mga rating po. A1, completely reliable. A2, completely reliable information. Probably true. B1. Usually reliable source. Information confirmed. B2. Usually reliable. Information probably true but needs validation. C1. Fairly reliable source. Information confirmed. C2. Fairly reliable source. Information needs validation. D2F. Source is doubtful, unreliable or reliability cannot be assessed. So, saan yung nilagay, yung sinabi ni Princess Maui, saan dito sa classification po na ito ng source of information? Is it A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, hanggang DF? Saan po?

**[01:14:39.420] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Kasi po ngayon, Sir, napakarami na po mga informasyon, mga fake news.

**[01:14:43.940] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, Sir. Sir, we... Pwede na pong sumagot. Go ahead po. Go

**[01:14:48.450] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Go ahead po.

**[01:14:48.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Sir, yung una po namin ginawa, we tried to invite... Princess Maui to shed light doon sa sinasabi nilang Romanov. Since hindi ho nag-appear si Princess Maui, wala ho kaming base. So, klinasify muna namin ito ng non-validated information. Naghanap kami sa open source. Yun nga ang nakita namin ang unang nagbigkas niyan si Mayor Baste. So, medyo nakita namin. Teka muna. Parang baliktad yata ang sitwasyon. Kung kay Mayor Bastien nagsimula ang Romanov, bakit dito ito yung tinatanong ni Princess Maui sa Vice Presidente? So medyo it doesn't make sense, sir. Wala kaming na-validate since hindi nag-appear si Princess Maui. So we classify the information as unvalidated information. So

**[01:15:38.310] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
what you did, nung hindi mo makonfirm yung kay Princess Maui information, Naghanap ka ng counter source.

**[01:15:45.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Open source, sir.

**[01:15:47.120] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Open source. Okay. To validate.

**[01:15:49.120] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. And

**[01:15:49.800] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
what happened to that source?

**[01:15:52.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, based doon sa video na yon, January, if I'm not mistaken, yun nga, yung Maiso Grani, Your Honor, ang unang nagbanggit ng Romanov, si Mayor Baste, parang tinatakot niya yung presidente. Okay, Mr.

**[01:16:10.590] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Waites, I'm running out of time. So, isa lang po ang tanong ko. So, yung information po ni Princess Maui doon sa video, yung sinabi niya kay BP, eh hindi po reliable.

**[01:16:23.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi reliable insofar as the Cybercrime Division is concerned, sir. Thank you,

**[01:16:27.630] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Mr. Presiding Officer. The

**[01:16:28.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
interventions of the Senator-Judge are noted. What is the pleasure of Senator-Judge Villanueva?

**[01:16:37.410] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. President. Just a very quick question on this particular topic. I will no longer dwell on Operation Romanov, despite the fact that—thank you to Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo, who told me about the dates—and I will not even mention or tackle the conditional threat. But I was looking at this NBI letter dated 2 December 2024,

**[01:17:07.750] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
marked as Annex I. This is prosecution's P-4-5 exhibit. It invited respondent Duterte to appear in connection with the investigation of alleged grave threats.

**[01:17:19.080] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Mr. Witness, nakasaad din po dito sa sulat na iniimbestigahan ng NBI iyong mga banta laban sa kanya,

**[01:17:26.510] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
at makakatulong po dito ang kanyang pagharap sa imbestigasyon. Tama po ba ito, Attorney?

**[01:17:30.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
po, Your Honor. Tama

**[01:17:31.660] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
po yan. Dahil po hindi personal na pumunta ang ating vicepresidente, ano po yung naging epekto nito sa investigation ninyo sa mga bantalaban sa kanyang buhay? Gusto ko lang mong malaman. Ipinagpatuloy niyo po ba ang investigasyon ng NBI? What is now the status of this investigation?

**[01:17:50.550] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Una, since yung second letter ng Vice President through her lawyer, may sinasabi doon na may threat sa life six months ago pa. So nung trinay naming i-check yun, Your Honor, ang nakita lang naming relevant information as to the security, yung pagbabawaso ng 75 PNP personnel from BPSPG, if I'm not mistaken. And then, I think, transfer ho yata yung mga personnel na yan sa Manila.

**[01:18:19.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
And then, when we check the record, yun nga, meron pang, based on the COA record, meron pang 335 more or less, if I'm not mistaken, na security personnel ang vice-presidente. So, other than those...

**[01:18:32.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
facts, wala ho kaming makitang relevant na security issue, dahil iyon nga, hindi naman nag-appear ang ating Vice President. Hindi naman sila nagbigay ng any information na puwede naming pagsimulan po.

**[01:18:47.280] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So after

**[01:18:48.640] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
that, you did not pursue anymore the investigation on the threats against the Vice President?

**[01:18:55.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang alam ko ang aming intelligence service ang may monitoring na ginagawa from time to time. I

**[01:19:00.720] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
ask this question, Mr. Witness, and for our people. Kasi hindi na po yung Operation Romanov, hindi na po itong conditional threat. Kung hindi, ito ba ay nabigyan, accorded the same level of attention dun sa mga threats na inyong nakukuha gaya ng binabanggit natin na threat. Atty. Dio Mano ng ating Vice Presidente. Kasi ang tanong, hindi rin naman po nagpunta sa inyo ang Pangulo o ang Speaker of the House. And yet, you pursued your investigation. So, in that way, paano ninyo may explain ito, Atty. Notok, na ginawa nyo talaga yung lahat ng inyong magagawa para investigahan din yung threat laban sa pangalawang Pangulo?

**[01:19:47.570] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, Your Honor. Magkaiba po siya. Yung grave threats na inutter ng Vice President against the President, apparent po siya, Your Honor, nakita po namin nasa video, inauthenticate namin ang video, nag-testify yung mga may personal knowledge na in fact sinabi niya yun. So, malinaw ho na nag-exist yung utterances na yun that qualifies the crime of grave threats. Dito ho, sa threat ng Vice Presidente, Wala ho kaming ganung same na information na nakuha. Wala kaming apparent na mayroong threat against sa life ng vicepresidente kasi nga hindi sila nagbigay ng specific information, hindi ho nagpakita ang vicepresidente para Mag-shed light doon sa investigation namin. So, hindi ho namin siya makita na parehas. Magkaiba po yun. Ang sa presidente, apparent siya. So, definitely under the law, ang NBI can motor-proprio undertake an investigation. Dito sa vice-presidente, allegation siya. Wala kaming ma-validate information. So, hindi ho pa magti-trigger yung investigation doon. But, I am sure, insofar as the intelligence service of the NBI is concerned, Continuous ho yung monitoring yan at naghahanap po sila ng mga lead para ma-solidify yung information na yan.

**[01:21:16.780] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Thank you, Mr. Witness. I know the law. Presidente, Vice Presidente, Speaker, pwede niyong tignan at imbestigahan yan but I feel na importanteng maipakita natin sa taong bayan that same level of attention ang ibinigay po natin at we also If we need to walk the extra mile of investigating, we have to do it in the name of fairness. So, yun ang po yung nakita ko and siguro yung sinasabi niyo nga po, hindi sumapat iyong inyong nakalap ng mga impormasyon. Whether the information ay kulang or hindi kayo nagkaroon ng access sa mga information na ito, kaya po hindi nagduloy.

**[01:22:01.290] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
That is in so far as the cybercrime division is concerned.

**[01:22:04.430] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

**[01:22:06.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What is the pleasure of Senator Judge Lacson? Thank you, Senator Judge Villanueva. I

**[01:22:11.330] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
just want to pursue the point raised by Senator Judge Rapitulpo and the others. The gentleman may proceed and he has two minutes. I don't know about the other senator judges, pero until today, when Senator Judge Rapitulpo clarified, Atty. Oplon Romanov, Atty. J.

**[01:22:32.040] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
first family?

**[01:22:34.060] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:22:34.500] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Ang impression ko since last week, noong pinag-uusapan natin iyong Oplan Romanov, threat ito against the Vice President. And since sabi ninyo, part ng investigation ninyo ang open source, di ba?

**[01:22:46.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:22:48.000] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Iyong speech ni Mayor Baste Duterte sa Maisug, naging part ba ng open source ninyo iyon?

**[01:22:55.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In this

**[01:22:55.670] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
particular investigation that you conducted,

**[01:22:57.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
hindi po siya nag-form part as… So kulang

**[01:23:00.190] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
yung inyong open source information.

**[01:23:03.250] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi po kami naka-focus sa Romanov, Your Honor.

**[01:23:07.410] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Was it also your impression na iyong threat doon sa Romanov was directed against VP Sara, until today?

**[01:23:17.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I don't…

**[01:23:18.290] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Please. Be honest. Don't be ashamed.

**[01:23:22.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I don't think so, Your Honor. Kasi unang-una, ang context ng Operation Romanov: against the First Family. So definitely against the President and his family, Your Honor. Ngayon, noong tinanong siya ni Princess Maui, doon nga kami nagtaka. Anong ibig sabihin ng Romanov? Anong context niya ng Romanov? Bakit against the Vice President? Hindi naman siya iyong First Family. So iyan iyong reason po, Your Honor, kung bakit we tried

**[01:23:48.610] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
po, Your Honor, kung bakit we tried to invite Princess Maui to shed us some light para makita namin ano bang ibig sabihin doon. Ano ba iyong puwede naming i-validate na information para makapag-case build-up kami pag mayroon?

**[01:24:02.230] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
So bakit hindi naging part ng investigation ninyo doon sa threat against the life of the President and the First Lady? Kasi family iyong binabanggit ni Mayor Baste, di ba? Hindi kasama iyong Speaker?

**[01:24:15.500] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Hindi kasama si Speaker Romualdez, hindi iyong Chief Justice?

**[01:24:17.360] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo. Yes, sir.

**[01:24:18.200] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Pero threat against the family, the First Family?

**[01:24:21.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:24:22.100] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
As mentioned by Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo.

**[01:24:24.100] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Ang sabi mo, hindi naging part ng investigation ninyo sa report or affidavit of investigation iyong open source ng Maisug?

**[01:24:27.560] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi po siya nakasama.

**[01:24:28.300] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Bakit hindi naisama? Open source din iyon. That could reinforce iyong conclusion ninyo na meron talagang serious threat against the President and the others.

**[01:24:44.250] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Romualdez, Bakit hindi ninyo ginawang part doon sa affidavit of investigation, unless pareho tayo ng impression na until today, ang alam natin sa Romanov ay threat against VP Sara? Iyon ang impression ko since last week.

**[01:25:08.940] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
That's exactly my

**[01:25:11.620] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
question, Atty. Lotoc. So ngayon nyo rin lang na-realize na yun palang Oplan Romanov, etret pala sa first family. First family.

**[01:25:21.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, Your Honor.

**[01:25:22.390] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Thank you. Noted. Entered into the records.

**[01:25:27.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I would have recognized Sen. Goff first but since you're there already, Sen. Judge Alan Gaetano. This is

**[01:25:32.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
just a

**[01:25:33.090] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
manifestation and point of information. As Sen. Judge Lacson said, it's for each judge to appreciate. But let me put context. I'm not close to VP Sara. I'm not close to Mayor Baste. Ang kasama ko sa Congress si former Deputy Speaker Pulong. But in the last four years, I think I've seen him twice or thrice. Yes, Your Honor. Okay. But my reading nung sinabi ni Mayor Baste is pag natulog ka sa gabi, remember the Romanovs. So, we have to look at our history. The Romanovs were evicted via a revolution. Diba? So, Mayor Bastet was doing a parallel ng 1986 na paalis yung mga Marcoses via a revolution. But unlike the Romanovs, the Marcoses were given asylum or whatever you call it in Hawaii. And over time, nakabalik until the president became president. Ang Romanovs, inubos sila para nga hindi maka—

**[01:26:43.090] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Balik. Now, if Mayor Baste was making Romanovs uubusin kayong Marcos, di dapat na-offend si Sen. Judge Aimee Marcos because she's a Marcos. So, secondly, if he made that threat, so if he was saying, may oplan mo Romanov or maroromanov kayo, I'm sure the PNP or PS—

**[01:27:08.580] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
The Presidential Security Command, the National Council would have filed a case against Baste. So I just want, it's fair that you mentioned him, it's fair sa investigation mo. But I don't think we should draw a conclusion here that Mayor Baste was threatening the first family. Because remember, there's a thin line between a warning and a threat. So pag sinabi ko sa'yo ngayon, witness, pareho tayong abogado, kumpanyero, pareho tayong taga-Ateneo, mag-ingat ka sa sasabihin mo. That could be a fair warning. That could be not a threat. Di ba? But kapag ka may threat talaga na pinarating ko sa'yo, pag hindi ko gusto, ano mo, kakasuwang kita, that could be a illegal threat. Di ba? Pero pwedeng warning. So I just want that on the record, Mr. President Officer, Mr. Senate President. Because everyone's watching, and in the same manner we have to be fair to the first family, we have to be fair also to Mayor Baste and to the Dutertes, rather than draw a conclusion that there was an actual. So the Council for Defense was making a distinction. Mentioning Romanov and Oplan Romanov are two different things. It may be the same, it may be a different thing. For all we know, Narinig ni Mayor Baste na sila iro-Romanov. Kaya binanggit niya pabalik. We don't know. I don't know. I haven't discussed it with anyone. I haven't discussed it with the few senators na kaibigan ko dito. So let's just be circumspect and careful from making conclusions. But as far as it is relevant, Mr. Presiding Officer, I appreciate the answer of the witness. Thank you. Thank

**[01:28:46.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
you, Your Honor.

**[01:28:47.230] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Go, thereafter, Senator Padilla.

**[01:28:52.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Go, you have two minutes, sir.

**[01:28:54.580] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[01:28:57.760] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Balik muna tayo dito sa ating bayan. Masyado lang malayo inaabot natin. To our Mr. Witness, some questions lang po, no?

**[01:29:06.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes po, Your Honor.

**[01:29:08.060] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Nabanggit niyo kahapon na 20 years na po kayo sa NBI.

**[01:29:11.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
12 years, Your

**[01:29:13.280] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Honor. Be specific, anong year po?

**[01:29:16.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2014, Your Honor. Nagsimula po ako from the NBI Academy.

**[01:29:20.200] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
2014?

**[01:29:21.080] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2014. 12 years na po, Your Honor. Ah, hindi 20 years. Hindi 20 years, Your Honor. 12, Your Honor.

**[01:29:27.160] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
12 years. So, kailan ho kayo nag-head ng cybercrime?

**[01:29:35.790] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
February 2023, your honor.

**[01:29:39.970] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
February of 2023. Maupay na adlaw pala. Maupay pong adlaw yapon,

**[01:29:47.250] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
sir.

**[01:29:47.990] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
And to our prosecutor. May hapon, sir. May hapon. Maupay na kulop. Maupay man.

**[01:29:58.110] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Kailan ho kayo naging RD?

**[01:30:02.950] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
July 2025, Sir.

**[01:30:05.330] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
July 2025. So, naging cybercrime head kayo February of 2023, Sir? Before that, sa ano kayo na-assign?

**[01:30:14.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Chief ng Digital Forensics, Sir. 2022. 2020. Anyway.

**[01:30:21.120] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
So, meron na bang nag-recommend sa inyo or wala na? Nag-apply lang kayo? O sino nag-recommend?

**[01:30:28.380] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Nang ano po, Sir?

**[01:30:29.520] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Naging head kayo ng cybercrime?

**[01:30:33.960] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
As chief of the digital forensics, I was designated by the then director, Medardo J. DeLemos. Then as chief of the cybercrime division, I was also designated by the then director, Medardo J. DeLemos.

**[01:30:51.260] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
2016 to 2022 sa ano kinasign?

**[01:30:55.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2016, I think, anti-organized crime and transnational crime. Up to 2020. AOTCD, your honor. Then, 2018, nasa cybercrime division na po. So,

**[01:31:07.640] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
hindi po kayo head doon?

**[01:31:08.960] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi pa. As an investigation agent po noong 2018, sir.

**[01:31:12.340] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Anyway, nabanggit niyo po kanina about sworn affidavit. And then, nabanggit niyo about journalists, no? Na part noong press conference. Tama ko ba?

**[01:31:24.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:31:24.700] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Marami sila, di ba? Maraming nabanggit sa mga nakaraang araw, including last week, di ba? Bakit po hindi kinuha ang sariling sworn affidavit ng mga journalist na personal na naroon po sa press conference, sa halip na affidavits ng agents na naglalaman ng inyong summary ng mga sinabi po ninyo? Bakit hindi ninyo pinursige iyong mga affidavit ng mga nandoon sa—

**[01:31:53.320] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Nung nag-appear po yung mga media personalities na nag-participate nung online press conference of the November 23, 2024, may kasama po silang lawyer and then we want them to execute an affidavit. Ang advice sa kanila ng lawyer, hindi na raw. Pwede lang silang mag-participate ng interview. Pwede silang mag-sign sabihin sa meeting. So hindi na po namin pinilit. So

**[01:32:19.260] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
wala hong... Journalists or mga vloggers na kasama po doon sa sworn affidavit. Wala ako. Sa inyo lang. Purely puro po ito magaling sa NBI lang po.

**[01:32:35.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Kasi ayaw po ng lawyer nila na mag-execute sila ng

**[01:32:39.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
affidavit. Pero may kasama po silang lawyer doon, Sir.

**[01:32:42.800] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Yung mga detalye pong nakasaad sa inyong affidavit tungkol sa naganap na press conference, galing ho ba ito sa personal knowledge ng mga agents o batay po sa sinabi ng mga journalist na nakausap po ng agents pagkatapos?

**[01:32:56.060] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Q&A yung mode nung interview at nag-reflect ho yan doon sa minutes of meeting and then nag-execute ng affidavit yung Atty. J. Nag

**[01:33:09.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
-interview na agent. Atty. So magkasama ho yung mga dokumento na

**[01:33:12.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
yun, sir.

**[01:33:13.670] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Makoconsider mo ba ito na second-hand account? Paano niyo masigurong naging actual ho yung pag-interpret ninyo sa mga sinabi?

**[01:33:26.040] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ano pong interpret, sir? I

**[01:33:28.680] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
mean, kung batay po ito sa second-hand account, paano niyo masisiguro na... Sacto, walang naidagdag, or hindi na misinterpret sa pagitan na aktual na sinabi ng mga journalist at mga nakasulat sa inyong affidavit?

**[01:33:41.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. That's the reason why inauthenticate namin yung video mula simula hanggang sa matapos para o hindi kami mawala sa tunay na nangyari. That's the reason why tinanscribe din ng ating agent on case kung ano laman ng video. Atty.

**[01:33:59.890] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
ano yung naging tanungan doon para o hindi kami mawala sa investigasyon namin. And in fact, Your Honor, when we tried to establish whether or not nag-atter ba talaga ang Vice Presidente na may kinausap na siyang tao para pumatay sa tatlo, na confirmed

**[01:34:18.410] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Confirmed namin ito noong November 26 video. Kasi ni-reiterate ng Vice President, in-admit niya, instead na sinabi niyang hindi ko sinabi iyon, sinabi niya noong November 26 na video na indeed may kinausap na siyang tao para pumatay doon sa tatlo. So, nabuo iyong aming investigation na ang tawag po namin doon is admission against interest.

**[01:34:47.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Doon po sa ginawa ni Vice President during the November 26, 2024. Anyway,

**[01:34:55.320] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
last question na lang po. On sedition, how do you reconcile the fact that the Vice President discouraged her supporters from going to the streets with a claim of inciting to sedition?

**[01:35:08.350] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ano po yung... On sedition charges, di ba? Yes, sir.

**[01:35:12.540] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
How do you reconcile the fact that the Vice President discouraged her supporters from going to the streets with a claim of inciting to sedition?

**[01:35:21.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, in inciting to sedition, Your Honor, specifically in the case of People v. Nabong, it is not necessary na magkaroon ng actual sedisyon. The law also penalizes if the seditious words would encourage people Atty. G.

**[01:35:40.140] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
illegal acts or to overthrow government. In other words, if the speeches would stir up the people to go against the government, if the speeches would disturb the peace of the community, if the speeches would undermine order and public security, hindi ho necessary na magkaroon ng actual na sedition.

**[01:35:57.940] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
Meron ho bang nagawa iyong Vice President na gaya ng sinasabi ninyo ngayon?

**[01:36:07.570] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Nagawa po.

**[01:36:09.140] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ah, inciting to sedition, Sir? Mag-go,

**[01:36:10.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
ha? Mag... Based sa findings namin, Sir, yes. Based po sa findings namin. Um, ganito po ang nangyari. Um, kinumpare po namin based on the content and context of the utterances made by the Vice President in November 23, 2024, the utterances made by the Vice President in October 18, 2024, then the utterances made by the Vice President in 26... November 2024. And under facts and circumstances, nung trinay po namin i-compare siya, may nakikita ho kami ng mga utterances that would stir up the people against the government. For example, Your Honor, nung October 18, ang sabi ng Vice Presidente, walang number one ang Pilipinas na to hanggang number two lang to para sa akin. Wala itong number one. Kinumpara ho namin nung November 23, ang sabi doon sa November 23, I do not recognize anybody above me. It's a reiteration dun sa kanyang sinabi. That's number one, Your Honor. Then number two, may sinabi siya nung October 18 na anong magagawa ko? Hindi marunong maging presidente yung nakaupo. Kasalanan ko ba yun? And then, November 23, kinumpara namin yun. Ang sabi niya dun, this country will go to hell because The person na nakaupo is hindi marunong maging presidente and who is a liar. So nakita namin yung pattern saka consistent na utterances. Then tinina namin yung pangatlong line. Ang sabi niya doon, alam ko si BBM may limang impeachable offense pero papasa ba dyan sa house? Siyempre hindi. Then pagdating sa November 23, sinabi naman niya doon na the president is lying through his teeth para makuha lang niya yung bota ng mga tao. Tapos minura niya sila PICA, BBM, Lisa Marcos, and former Speaker of the House. So tinignan namin sino ba yung nagsasalita? Kung ang nagsasalita, Your Honor, is yung ikalawa sa pinakamataas na posisyon in public at yun yung kanyang utterances, definitely, Your Honor, there is a tendency to stir up the people against lawful government. Kindly wind up, Sen. Go.

**[01:38:26.000] Sen. Christopher Bong Go**  
No more question, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank

**[01:38:29.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
you, Senator Judge Go. Senator Judge Padilla intimated to the Presiding Officer that he will defer his questions to a later time. Counsel, for the respondent, you may proceed with your cross-examination.

**[01:38:43.460] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just a manifestation, Your Honor, in relation to the query or the manifestation of Senator Judge Villanueva.

**[01:38:51.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
In relation to the query of... No,

**[01:38:54.090] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
no. His manifestation, Your Honor.

**[01:38:57.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
No need, Counsel. Proceed. Unless he asked you a question. It's the

**[01:39:00.470] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
seventh court's time. Please proceed with your cross-examination.

**[01:39:04.370] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. I'll just transform it into a question. You were asked about that December 2, 2024 letter, correct?

**[01:39:10.730] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
December 2, yes, sir.

**[01:39:12.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That is the letter where you gave a schedule for the Vice President to attend, correct?

**[01:39:18.730] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, signed by our assistant director. But

**[01:39:21.290] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
the schedule that you gave was November 11, 2024 at 10 a.m. and then you gave the address. So

**[01:39:28.070] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
in other words, My question naman is this eh, if tama yung schedule sana at nakapunta si VP Sara, would it have affected your investigation?

**[01:39:40.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, even up till now, ready ho kaming tanggapin kung anumang information ng Vice Presidente, continuous po yun. In fact, sabi ko nga kanina, yung intelligence service namin is May ginagawang monitoring from time to time doon sa threat to life against the Vice President,

**[01:40:00.410] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
President, President, etc. Okay, I'll move on to a new point. Now, let me show you a portion of the interview of Demsi Reyes of the Philippine Daily Inquirer. Please direct your attention to paragraph 13 of the minutes of the meeting. This is also...

**[01:40:16.190] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
The transcription made by Agent Kalilong. Page 173 of Annex G. 9 as well.

**[01:40:27.120] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
So, here,

**[01:40:28.820] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
it says may presscon kasi earlier than that sabi niya na parang sabi niya lang gusto daw siyang patayin daw according to her and his speaker. That was during a press conference the day before November 2022. So, Considering that this is part of the minutes of the meetings, this is also part of the NBI's own records, correct? Yes, sir. Alright. Now, my question is this. Did you issue a subpoena against Speaker Martin Romualdez, former Speaker Martin Romualdez?

**[01:41:00.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Did you issue a subpoena?

**[01:41:03.720] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kasi kay Speaker Romualdez, sir? Yes. Kasi ba't ako mag-issue ng subpoena? Wala pa kaming sufficient na... So

**[01:41:12.940] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
what's the... you did that issue? Hindi kami nag-issue, sir. So, in other words, for VP Sara, you issued not just one, but two subpoenas. But for the former speaker, you did not issue a subpoena. That's just the question.

**[01:41:24.470] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
There is an apparent commission of the crime for grave threats and inciting to sedition, sir.

**[01:41:28.830] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I see. So, for this particular portion, you just turned a blind eye and did not... There is no validated information on that. Let the

**[01:41:38.450] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
witness answer.

**[01:41:39.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
There was a question. Counsel, kindly don't argue with the witness.

**[01:41:43.610] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But based on your testimony yesterday, you said that you have a system of evaluating factors, correct? My question to you is, based on that system, does Martin Romualdez have the capacity to execute a death threat, for example?

**[01:42:01.530] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
We haven't established any apparent crime committed by the former speaker, Your Honor. So hindi kami nag-dealt dyan sa issue na yan.

**[01:42:10.890] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
At any rate, these minutes of the meeting which you all confirmed that is part of the NBI's own record, isn't this information regarding the death threat against VP Sara?

**[01:42:22.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, ang sabi po dyan, if I may read, may presscon kasi earlier than that sabi niya parang sabi lang niya Gusto daw, siyang patayin daw, according to her, ni Speaker, that was during a press conference the day before. Precisely, Your Honor, the reason why we issued a letter noong November 22 is to ask the Vice President kung ano ho yung facts and circumstances dyan sa issue na yan. But since hindi ho nag-appear ang Vice Presidente, wala ho talaga kaming mapagsimulan. Wala kaming validated information.

**[01:42:56.100] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But you issued the subpoena against Dempsey Reyes, correct? Yes, sir. Pero ang tinanong niyo kay Dempsey Reyes yung case lang against VP Sara. Hindi niya siya tinanong ng threats to her, correct?

**[01:43:08.170] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, unang-una, ang ini-establish namin, ang focus ng investigation namin, the reason why we subpoenaed the late Demsi Reyes, is whether or not ba yung Vice President doon sa statement niya

**[01:43:20.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
niya na nag-contract na siya ng tao para patayin si BBM, si Liza Marcos, at si former Speaker. Sir, iyon po iyong focus

**[01:43:27.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Marcos, The offended parties in this case, if at all, are BBM, FL, and the former speaker, correct?

**[01:43:54.270] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:43:55.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Did you subpoena any of them?

**[01:43:56.910] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir.

**[01:43:57.870] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Did they appear before the NBI?

**[01:44:00.130] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir.

**[01:44:01.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Nakausap niyo ba sila ng personal? No, sir. And yet, you concluded that they were victims of grave threats, correct? Based

**[01:44:10.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
on the evidence we've gathered, yes, sir.

**[01:44:11.850] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So without any personal correspondences with them, you— Atty. The

**[01:44:18.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
evidence is clear. According

**[01:44:21.450] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
to you.

**[01:44:22.750] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, I move that—

**[01:44:26.710] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, I move that defense counsel, with all due respect, be admonished from stating those unprofessional remarks. We are in front of national TV. If you are not satisfied with his answer, please don't put any value to what the witness answered.

**[01:44:53.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
This is a reminder for counsel for both parties. Kindly avoid side remarks. Henceforth, the Presiding Officer will have it stricken off the record. And

**[01:45:04.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
whatever question you pose and afterwards withdraw, will likewise be stricken off from the record. So as to avoid any attempts at showmanship, usually seen on TV, But that will not be tolerated by this Impeachment Court. Counsel are

**[01:45:22.320] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
so reminded...

**[01:45:23.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We will comply, Your Honor.

**[01:45:24.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Please proceed... To clarify,

**[01:45:25.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Mr. Witness, yung NBI subpoena against VP Sara that you issued was her being a respondent, correct?

**[01:45:34.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:45:35.560] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Pero as a complainant, you did not issue...

**[01:45:38.460] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
We issued a letter, sir, December 2. No, no, no.

**[01:45:40.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
As the complainant na siya yung... Subject naman ng threats, walang subpoena as to that effect.

**[01:45:47.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Walang subpoena, Sir. So

**[01:45:49.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
in other words, hindi talaga siya naka-explain kasi what you sent out was a letter and not a subpoena.

**[01:45:55.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung letter is to inform the Vice President. Na iniimbestigahan din namin yung threat against the life niya. So, therefore, kailangan namin yung presence niya or any information na pwedeng makatulong sa investigation.

**[01:46:07.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yun na nga. Pero hindi niya siya sinenda ng subpoena. Isn't it that in a regular case, the prosecutor sends out the subpoena both to the complainant and to the respondent?

**[01:46:16.510] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
The prosecutor, sir?

**[01:46:17.950] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yes. You're a lawyer. You know this. When you file a case before the prosecutor's office, the handling prosecutor issues out the subpoena sa parehong parties naman.

**[01:46:26.510] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang alam ko, during the case concert, I think nag-appear yata ang vice-presidente sa DOJ. Doon ako na-inform sir.

**[01:46:33.170] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay, I'll move on to a new point. Let's talk about the reversal by the DOJ. Di ba? There was an initial finding on February 5 and then it was eventually reversed. Now... Would you agree with me that the rectifications that you made for the first affidavit of investigation were procedural deficiencies?

**[01:46:53.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Procedural deficiencies? No, it's part of the case build-up, Your Honor.

**[01:46:59.380] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But what you added were TSNs, affidavits of your own agents, correct? Those were affidavits.

**[01:47:07.760] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yes, but don't you consider those as procedural and not substantive?

**[01:47:12.230] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Part of the evaluation and case build-up, yes sir.

**[01:47:15.690] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. But in effect, the substance of the case remained the same.

**[01:47:21.140] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Walang nabago ho sa affidavit, sa una at sa pangalawa, parehas po yan. Very good. So

**[01:47:25.760] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
in other words, wala kang no additional discussion on the merits of the case?

**[01:47:31.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
On the merits of the case, yung findings namin, hindi ho nabago yan, sir.

**[01:47:35.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Very good. So no additional witnesses were interviewed?

**[01:47:41.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
What do you mean interviews?

**[01:47:42.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Wala nang additional interviews. Kung ano yun sa first affidavit niyo, yun na rin yun sa second affidavit. Wala nang additional interviewees?

**[01:47:51.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kung I think ang naaalala ko, anim ho na media personalities ang na-interview namin at yun ho yung nag-reflect sa affidavit at the same time we tried to issue subpoena sa I think head ng ABS-CBN. I understand that, but be more responsive.

**[01:48:11.830] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, if I may, the witness is still in the process of answering his question.

**[01:48:15.400] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, but the answer is not responsive. My question is very simple.

**[01:48:20.810] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Let him finish first with all the respect, Your Honor.

**[01:48:23.590] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
With the permission of the counsel for the parties. Atty. Lotoc, the question was, sa pagitan ng una at pangalawang sinubmit ninyo sa DOJ, may mga testigo ba kayong dinagdag sa pangalawang ninyong submission sa DOJ? Or the witnesses are the same.

**[01:48:40.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Nilakip lang iyong mga affidavit na hindi nailakip doon sa unang pagsumite?

**[01:48:45.070] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
As far as I'm concerned, Your Honor, they are the same.

**[01:48:48.850] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But we will never know that for sure because you never released your first affidavit of investigation, correct?

**[01:48:57.480] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, I think it's in the DOJ. Ang binigay sa amin yung certification kung ano yung mga requirements na dapat namin i-comply.

**[01:49:04.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yeah, but what you attach, when you received the subpoena from the House Committee on Justice, which was used as the basis for the articles of impeachment, the first affidavit of investigation was never included.

**[01:49:17.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung nag-submit ho dyan, Your Honor, sila, Agent Kalilong, wala akong idea.

**[01:49:22.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Hindi ninyo alam. All right,

**[01:49:23.740] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
that's okay. So, I have a question about... The Affidavit of Investigation. Okay? An affidavit, or I'll just be more specific, your second affidavit of investigation was subscribed and sworn to, correct?

**[01:49:39.120] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[01:49:39.980] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
On February 10, 2025. Yes, sir. Alright. Before who?

**[01:49:45.450] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Can I

**[01:49:46.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
check, sir?

**[01:49:46.890] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Sure.

**[01:49:47.330] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Witness may consult the document before him. Thank you, Your Honor.

**[01:49:53.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel for the parties may assist him.

**[01:49:58.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor,

**[01:49:59.400] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
we'll just confront him with our

**[01:50:00.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
own— Subscribe on SORN 2 before Assistant Director Glenn A. Ricarte, sir.

**[01:50:07.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, so do you remember that you subscribed along with the other agents before General Ricarte now?

**[01:50:13.490] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. May signature kami rito.

**[01:50:15.630] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright.

**[01:50:17.720] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And you did this because the first affidavit of investigation cannot be altered anymore.

**[01:50:25.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
What do you mean, sir?

**[01:50:27.260] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
An affidavit, as you know, you are a lawyer. Once an affidavit is subscribed and sworn to, it is a complete document already. Meaning, even if you take out one page or you add an annex, you already alter the meaning of that document. Will you agree with me?

**[01:50:47.710] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, the process is legal evaluation by the prosecutor and case build-up. So, pag nakita ko ng prosecution... Your Honor, I'm just talking

**[01:51:00.600] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
about the nature of the affidavit. I'm not talking about...

**[01:51:03.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer the question. It's a general question pertaining to an affidavit in general, not this particular one.

**[01:51:10.100] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ano yung question, Sir? Okay, an

**[01:51:12.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
affidavit, once you subscribe and swear to it, that already becomes a, if I may use the term, untouchable affidavit in such that... You cannot take out one page, you cannot alter one paragraph, you cannot add annex. Well,

**[01:51:33.850] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think kung sinubmit niya na huyan officially sa limbawa, sa korte, hindi na huw pwede yan. Pero yung process namin, yung evaluation saka case build up, naguusap po ang prosecutor saka yung investigator. So sinasabi ng pros, pag may kulang ka, Ito, ito. So, itong unang affidavit, since may kulang sa mga attachment, ayusin nyo, baguhin nyo, i-comply nyo yung mga requirements. Since yung affidavit na yon is nakadate nung January 30, at magkukumply pa lang kami, anong nakumply namin, nag-submit kami sa DOJ and that is already February 10.

**[01:52:15.930] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So magkaiba ho yung date. So definitely babaguhin namin yung date. Kasi nga dumaan kami sa process ng compliance. In other

**[01:52:22.890] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
words, when you subscribed and sworn to your January 30, 2025 affidavit, you added documents or pages to it?

**[01:52:32.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang sabi ko po, sir. Ang sabi ng DOJ, may kulang kayong affidavit of authentication, may kulang kayong TSN. Yun ho yung inattach namin doon sa affidavit.

**[01:52:41.790] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Precisely. So in other words, you added documents to your January 30, 2025 affidavit? Attachments, sir. Attachments. So you admit that you added attachments to it?

**[01:52:51.490] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Part of compliance doon sa case build-up at doon sa evaluation na requirement of the Department of Justice.

**[01:52:56.830] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, but Mr. Wittes,

**[01:52:57.450] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
isn't it that— Your Honor, Your Honor, again, again. Can I respectfully request? Your Honor, may

**[01:53:03.520] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
I just

**[01:53:03.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
be allowed to proceed, Your Honor? Counsel for the respondent, let the counsel for the prosecutors finish with this observation or objection. Can

**[01:53:11.200] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
I make a respectful request to the defense to let the witness finish the answer before they propound the next question, Your Honor, please? For orderly proceeding, Your Honor, please.

**[01:53:24.750] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Point well taken. Counsel, please proceed accordingly. And may I also remind the witness, Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer yes or no instead of yeah and nah.

**[01:53:34.870] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Sorry po.

**[01:53:36.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So that it's clear for our records.

**[01:53:40.870] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[01:53:41.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, counsel for the respondent.

**[01:53:42.970] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So you admit that after you subscribe and swear, Atty.

**[01:53:51.280] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
January 30, 2025 affidavit, you added documents to it so that it would comply with the requirements of the DOJ. Is that what you're saying?

**[01:54:02.360] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Attachments based on the requirement of the DOJ, sir.

**[01:54:06.080] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right. Thank you for that admission.

**[01:54:08.240] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just one last point on this. Can we flash the affidavit of investigation?

**[01:54:13.440] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
investigation? Flash page 1. This is page 13, Your Honor, of the AOI's Annex G-9, for the benefit or for the guidance of this honorable Court. The one that was flashed earlier. Tech is instructed to do so.

**[01:54:33.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, so this is the first page of the affidavit of investigation. Will you agree with me that this was not received by this particular document as is was not

**[01:54:47.110] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
received by the DOJ? I don't have personal knowledge. Ang inutusan ko po dyan, yung executive officers and agent on case na makipag-communicate sa Department of Justice. But you are a co-signer of this, correct? Yeah, insofar as the content of the affiliation.

**[01:55:01.620] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. And you mean to say that you didn't cause the filing of this case with the DOJ?

**[01:55:07.500] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Inutusan ko po ang executive officers at si Agent Trilong na sila mag-process po na dalhin yung referral na yan sa Department of Justice, sir.

**[01:55:15.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
At any rate, You're smart enough to peruse the first page and you can see that there's no received stamp appearing there too, correct?

**[01:55:24.480] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Received from DOJ or by DOJ? By DOJ. Again, ang makakasagot niyan, yung nag-process niyan, si Executive Officer nga namin. But based on

**[01:55:33.160] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
only... Again, the witness is still in the process of answering the question.

**[01:55:36.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel, take it easy. Let the witness complete his answer.

**[01:55:39.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay, Your Honor. But based as it appears only, as it appears on this document... This is part of the records and also uploaded in the Senate website already last July 12 so that the public can peruse. Annex GGG, this is page 13. Based on this document and observation, can you notice any received stamp on this document?

**[01:56:05.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Based on that document, wala akong naka-stamped or received. Precisely

**[01:56:09.160] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
my point, that this was attached, if this was really received by the DOJ, there should have been an IDF, right, or a transmittal letter attached to this. Again, yung makakasagot po niyan, yung executive officers, Agent Kalilong, and the

**[01:56:23.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
prosecution, sir. Kasi sila wang nag-uusap siyan. Sila ang nagdala ng dokumento na yan.

**[01:56:30.620] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, I'll move on to a new point.

**[01:56:34.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, Article 4 of... Hi.

**[01:56:40.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What is the pleasure of Senator Judge Pia Cayetano?

**[01:56:50.460] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Mr. President, I wanted to take the floor before the defense went to another point so I wouldn't interrupt his train of thought. The

**[01:56:59.380] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
lady has two minutes and may proceed when she's ready.

**[01:57:01.910] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Thank you, Mr. President. My question is actually addressed to both counsels and to the witness.

**[01:57:09.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, ma'am.

**[01:57:10.540] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
So the witness also happens to be a lawyer. Apat na abogado po tayo mag-uusap dito.

**[01:57:15.100] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Pero ang pakiusap ko, speak in layman's terms because we want the public to understand. Very simple question. I want to understand your appreciation of the crime of great threats. Okay? It sounds like a simple question but when I look at the elements, so explain ko din sa mga nakikinig.

**[01:57:37.670] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Pag tinignan natin ang definition ng crime, So the prosecution must always prove yung elements of the crime. Ang

**[01:57:46.690] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
question ko ay, in your appreciation, dapat ba na ang supposed victim nakaramdam talaga siya ng threats? Or is it enough that the general public considers the statement threatening? Okay, so is it personal or is it a general sentiment? Now, before I proceed, gusto ko magbigay ng example para maintindihan ang mga kababayan natin. Kung magkapit-bahay, nagkapikunan dun sa bakod, tapos sabi nung isa, bubulohin ko to. Is that a grave threat? Second example, dalawang boksingero, nagka-initan, susuntukin kita. This is among two professional boxers. Is that a grave threat? Third example, police.

**[01:58:41.000] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Sabi, bubunutan ko to ng barel. Is that a grave threat? Maybe it's just offensive. Dahil sa professional life, you shouldn't say that to a fellow police. And my fourth example is a senator. Pag sinabi niyang bibit-biting kita, kekwelyuhan kita, palalayasan kita, is that a grave threat? I'll add some details. If that is supposedly addressed to a fellow senator and she is a female senator like me, na kahit na hindi naman isa hung kilalang runner, marathoner, but a non-violent person, is that a grave threat? Well, I'll just tell you my personal opinion and then I'll tell you now. I felt that was a grave threat. So may I ask the counsel and the witness to now answer the question. Thank you.

**[01:59:32.320] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
If you may, Your Honor, please.

**[01:59:34.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Your prosecution, po. Sen. Judge Pia, who do you want to answer first?

**[01:59:41.710] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Good question. Pag-iisipan ko ng matagal yan, Mr. President. I give you the decision on that one, Mr. President. Siguro prosecution kasi sila naman ang kailangan mag-prove ng case nila. And then the witness and then the defense counsel.

**[01:59:57.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Again, an admonition from the chair. Without stating conclusions of fact and law that again is reserved for the impeachment court, you may state your opinions with respect to... The elements of the crime of grave threats specifically identified by the Senator-Judge. And

**[02:00:18.790] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
if I may, Presiding Officer, feel free to interrupt them if you feel that they have crossed the line, as I will. That's why

**[02:00:25.830] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
I just want, I repeat my question, I want to understand your appreciation of the crime. You may...

**[02:00:32.820] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Ano, Mr. President? Will we allow them to cite jurisprudence? I leave it up to you. I just want to understand the appreciation kasi. What do you think?

**[02:00:39.360] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Doon sa particular pong katanungang yun ni Sen. Judge Pia Cayetano na dapat ba may takot na naramdaman? Correct me if I'm wrong, Sen. Judge Pia? Yes. Yun taong tinatakot o subject matter ng grave threats o pampublikong pagtanggap pa na nakakatakot yung mga sinabi niya laban doon sa... Taong tinatakot niya.

**[02:01:01.460] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Siguro, a simple yes or no with a very short explanation would suffice, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[02:01:07.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Ligutan, you have two

**[02:01:09.060] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
minutes. Maraming

**[02:01:09.500] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
salamat sa Sen. Pia Caetano. Maraming salamat sa pagkakataon. Yung sagot sa tanong na iyan, yung sagot po ng prosecution, hindi po galing sa opinion ng aking mga kasama, ito po ay isang decision. No less than the Supreme Court of the Philippines. It just so happened, Your Honors, as an answer, in answer po sa tanong ni Sen. Pia Caetano, may dalawang kaso na po yung Supreme Court. Yung isa is paera versus people. Yung GR number, siguro yung mga law students, no? Mga law students? GR number 181626, May 30, 2011. The title is paera versus people. Sinabi ng Supreme Court doon.

**[02:02:00.910] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Wala pong batas.

**[02:02:02.350] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
na nagre-require na may private complainant. Ibig sabihin, hindi po required na iyong biktima mag-execute ng affidavit upang iyong akusado po ay puwedeng ma-found guilty ng grave threats. Paera v. People. But more than that, Your Honor, please. May isang kaso pa. No less than the Supreme Court of the Philippines. Sinabi roon, hindi po kailangan

**[02:02:34.500] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
na iyong recipient mismo nakaramdam ng takot or that sineryoso iyong pagbabanta, Your Honor. To repeat, itong sinabi ng Supreme Court: all that needs to be proven is that they were intended by the accused to have that effect. Iyong sagot sa tanong, hindi po galing sa prosecution, hindi po opinion, galing mismo sa Supreme Court of the Philippines.

**[02:03:27.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
My memory aid correctly. There are only certain private crimes that need a private complainant. And most of these are personal crimes such as concubinage, adultery, seduction, abduction, rape, and acts of lasciviousness. Although these crimes are all entitled people of the Philippines versus the accused, without a private complainant, these crimes cannot be filed by the prosecutor. In court without the cooperation or affidavit of the private complainant. Counsel for respondent will please reply to the query of Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano. You also have two minutes, sir.

**[02:04:03.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right. I will try to avoid making conclusions of fact and law, Your Honor, but I will answer in light of the facts of this case and leave it up to the discretion of this honorable court. It is our position. That the statements made by the Vice President were not threats in the first place. That's why we were categorizing it as a mere response to a Q&A, number one. Number two, it was never aimed directly at BBM, FL, and the former Speaker.

**[02:04:51.250] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In other words, had they not watched the video, for example, they wouldn't have known about it.

**[02:05:02.970] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So in other words, Your Honor,

**[02:05:07.670] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
there was

**[02:05:12.150] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
no threats to begin with. And so even the discussion on the elements is not really applicable insofar as determining the innocence or guilt.

**[02:05:27.690] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
of the vice president that is basically our position that is one more thing and practically we uh maintain this position all throughout our pleadings we never uh referred to that statement as threats we always say that if at all they were alleged threats but we referred to the statements of the vice president as statements as responses and even in my speech that's what i said

**[02:05:56.780] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
It was a response, Your Honor. That would be all, yeah.

**[02:06:00.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted. Atty. Lotoc, your response to Sen. Judge Pia's question based on your investigation. You may proceed, sir.

**[02:06:08.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. In establishing, Your Honor, whether or not the crime of great threat exists, we follow the rule.

**[02:06:21.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
First, whether there is an actus reus, and then second, whether there is a mens rea. So, actus reus, Your Honor, means whether the offender, in fact, uttered the threatening remarks. We were able to establish that. That's why inauthenticate po ng NBI yung video na kung saan nandoon yung utterances. The test of mens rea, Your Honor, what we did, we interpret the utterances objectively. And in the light of the circumstances in which they were uttered, in the manner in which those appearances were spoken, the person to whom they were addressed, the appearances were addressed, the relationship between the parties, meaning the offender and the recipients, and then the reactions of the recipients, whether they treat the The utterance is serious or real. But again, I would agree with what Atty.

**[02:07:36.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In fact, ang basis po namin diyan, iyong Garma v. People. Ang isa po doon sa sinabi ng Garma v. People, hindi ho kailangan na ma-intimidate o itrato ng recipient na seryoso iyong threat na iyan. Ang sufficient na maipakita lang na iyon iyong intention ng offender: to intimidate and to treat seriously the utterances or threatening remarks na ginawa niya. Iyon po is iyong naging basihan po namin, Your Honor.

**[02:08:08.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I hope that satisfies Senator-Judge Pia Cayetano.

**[02:08:11.730] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
It actually does, but if I still have time, I have a follow-up question for all.

**[02:08:19.030] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Well, anyway, everyone went overtime, so since my bell hasn't rung—

**[02:08:22.850] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
No, you don't, but you can ask your final question, ma'am.

**[02:08:25.530] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Just a quick follow-up.

**[02:08:28.670] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Siguro sa witness na lang. You mentioned the word threat, no? So, can you just elaborate on that? What to you would be the difference between a threat?

**[02:08:42.450] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
A threat and a... Sorry,

**[02:08:44.650] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
sorry. I don't know if you uttered the word that I want to ask you now. But you referred to threat, of course. What would be the difference between a mere warning and a threat?

**[02:08:57.170] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
A mere warning and a threat. At

**[02:08:59.590] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
what point does a warning become a threat?

**[02:09:05.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, Your Honor, if I'm going to... Based on our investigation, kung i-apply ko yung—

**[02:09:11.370] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Ah, hindi na?

**[02:09:12.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
You don't

**[02:09:14.820] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
have to. Just asking your legal opinion. You're a lawyer. Di may answer? Is it not correct, Mr. President?

**[02:09:21.580] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think— If

**[02:09:22.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
he knows? Just

**[02:09:23.860] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
in my own opinion, although— Warning

**[02:09:29.170] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
is maybe there is a— What we call an event-based condition. Pwedeng ganon na— Pag inulit mo ito, itong gagawin ko sa'yo. Pwede hong warning yon.

**[02:09:43.720] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Diba ganun din yung threat? Yung threat, Your Honor, pag ang threat is with a condition, pwede ho siyang mag-fall ng ganun. Pag sinabi ng threat is, pag ginawa mo ito, ito ang gagawin ko sa'yo, papatayin kita, papatayin ko yung pamilya mo, papatayin ko yung ganyan. So para siyang nag-overlap, depende sa appreciation for us, ng investigator.

**[02:10:09.380] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, but in so far as the NBI Cybercrime Division is concerned, what we did is we established the elements of the great threats based on the surrounding facts and circumstances and then we conclude that indeed nag-violate ho ang ating Vice Presidente.

**[02:10:32.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, warning in Filipino is babala.

**[02:10:38.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes. Opo.

**[02:10:40.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Threat in Filipino is banta.

**[02:10:42.850] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes. Opo. Opo.

**[02:10:44.290] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kaya diba babala, bawal magtapon ng basura dito.

**[02:10:48.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Pwede po yun, Sir.

**[02:10:51.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Diba? Ang tanong ni Sen. Rupia, kailan nagiging banta yun?

**[02:10:56.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, ito depende sa konteksto siguro, Your Honor. May warning din po kasi na I warned you. I warn you, sinasabi ko, pag inulit mo ito, ito ang mangyayari sa'yo. May konteksto na ganun, Your Honor, na somehow nag-overlap siya doon sa elements ng great threats na conditional, na sinabi na pag ito ang nangyari, ito ang gagawin ko sa'yo. So, depende sa konteksto, Your Honor.

**[02:11:28.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So, depende sa konteksto, sa delivery, sa taas ng boses, gaano kagalit, may kapasidad.

**[02:11:35.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, po.

**[02:11:36.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, po, your honor.

**[02:11:40.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Villa?

**[02:11:41.580] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Yeah, so in other words, it depends on the circumstances surrounding the incident or the time that

**[02:11:49.060] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
the utterance

**[02:11:50.160] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
was made.

**[02:11:50.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, ma'am.

**[02:11:51.490] Sen. Pia S. Cayetano**  
Okay, so laging contextual. Okay, maraming salamat sa lahat. I just want to emphasize na, Mr. Presiding Officer, I posted my question to each of the councils and the witness precisely so that tayo masabihan na may bias. Isa lang yung binibigyan natin ng opportunity to explain their side. I really genuinely just wanted to know what their appreciation of the definition of grave threats is. Thank you so much.

**[02:12:12.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We thank the good Senator Judge for intervention. All of the comments are noted.

**[02:12:17.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Council for the Respondent. Proceed with your cross when you're ready.

**[02:12:22.210] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, I'll move on to a new point. Now, Article 4 of the Articles of Impeachment against VP Sara deals with three accusations. Number one, contracting for the assassination. Number two, making grave threats. And number three, actively inciting sedition. So, on page 28 of your Affidavit of Investigation, which is page 40 of Annex G9 again, you recommended— Only one count of inciting to sedition and three counts of grave threats. You confirm this?

**[02:12:58.560] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:12:59.320] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. And the three counts of grave threats were for BBM, FL, and the former speaker? Yes, sir. My next question is very simple. Did you include any charge relating to contracting for the assassination?

**[02:13:18.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Relating to contracting for the assassination? No, sir. Yung charge namin is grave threats, inciting prostitution, and on that grave threat, doon po pumasok yung appearances na may kinontrata ang vice-presidente.

**[02:13:34.770] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. So, pinagsama niyo na lahat. Even yung contracting assassin, sinama niyo na sa grave threats. According to you now?

**[02:13:43.370] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
You know ang basis ng grave threats namin. Alright.

**[02:13:46.870] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In fact, let's go to page 13 of the...

**[02:13:51.280] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Affidavit of Investigations G9. We flashed it on the screen.

**[02:13:58.890] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
There. It says, 1 count of inciting to sedition and 3-1. So, 3 na 1 count of grave threats. So, ano

**[02:14:12.500] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
to? Ah, typo na. Alright. Typographical error na naman. Alright. So, with all these mga...

**[02:14:22.450] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Mga infirmities, and you mentioned yesterday that your case is airtight. Don't you think that these errors constituted violations of due process?

**[02:14:33.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, the

**[02:14:37.370] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
existence of these typographical errors does not alter the fact that the video exists, does not alter the fact that the Vice President uttered those statements, does not alter the fact na ang NBI merong findings at ang findings nila The Vice President committed the crime of great threats and inciting to sedition.

**[02:15:00.590] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay. Now, inciting to sedition punishes someone who incites others to overthrow the government. Is that accurate? Who incites others.

**[02:15:10.350] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Alright. Now,

**[02:15:12.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
it has been over one and a half years since VP Sara's speech. My question is, has the government been overthrown following her speech?

**[02:15:21.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, as I've said, As I've explained that, Your Honor, it is not necessary to be a seditious... Your Honor, can we

**[02:15:30.200] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
ask that the

**[02:15:32.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
witness answers in

**[02:15:32.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
a more responsive manner? Witness, kindly,

**[02:15:34.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
attorney to talk, kindly answer the question directly so that the court's time is not wasted.

**[02:15:40.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, any questions, sir?

**[02:15:41.990] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Has the government been overthrown following VP Sara's speech? Not necessary, sir.

**[02:15:47.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No.

**[02:15:47.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No, it's not necessary, sir.

**[02:15:49.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Has any agency or department of the government been overthrown following her speech?

**[02:15:54.760] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Not necessary, sir. No. Alright.

**[02:15:56.740] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, I am showing you a news article entitled, 'Palace Dismisses Destab Rumors vs. Marcos Admin.' This was marked as our D-4-66. If I may ask my co-counsel to confront the witness with this.

**[02:16:13.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
We may do so, with the participation, if he so desires, of assisting counsel for the prosecutors.

**[02:16:19.030] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
the benefit of this honorable court as well as the people watching, we also flashed that news article. So based on this article, you confirmed that Claire Castro speaks on behalf of BBM.

**[02:16:33.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I don't have personal knowledge on that event, sir.

**[02:16:38.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, that's okay. But based on her statement in this news article or title, Do you confirm that there has been no destabilization efforts against BBM?

**[02:16:48.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, I don't have personal knowledge on that statement made by Atty. Claire Castro.

**[02:16:53.830] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay, that's okay. I'm showing you another recent article. June 12, 2026. This has been marked, Your Honor, as our D-4-67. Can we confront the witness and show also the document on screen?

**[02:17:10.650] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Before the good counsel proceed, can I make a manifestation? Again, these documents have yet to be authenticated. So, for the record, it's like presenting these documents without...

**[02:17:25.090] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
without proper basis and proper authentication, which I do believe should have been done before a witness is confronted with these documents. As per our rules, Your Honor.

**[02:17:37.270] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
It's not an objection, counsel for the respondent. The remarks and comments of counsel for the prosecutors are noted.

**[02:17:43.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
But counsel, for clarity, this is a pre-marked exhibit for the respondent, correct? You may proceed, sir.

**[02:17:50.870] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So again, based on this, just your basic reading of this,

**[02:17:56.010] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Sara Duterte, 'I won't grab Marcos' position.' Is this news article consistent also with the previous article that no destabilization efforts are present against the government?

**[02:18:09.970] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, I don't have personal knowledge, sir.

**[02:18:12.030] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Can I make a counter-manifestation order? This is dated June 12, 2026, two years after the event. Manifestation, Your Honor, please. Two years after the Vice President uttered the threats.

**[02:18:25.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted. Councilman proceed.

**[02:18:28.280] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Okay. I want to talk about the discussion in your affidavit of investigation. I want to go through it very quickly but the affidavit of investigation is also marked as our D-1-145-A. You mentioned in your affidavit of investigation the case of Garma v. People, correct?

**[02:18:49.080] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:18:49.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. And you cited the doctrine of this case, correct?

**[02:18:54.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Were you

**[02:18:54.900] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
the one who typed that portion in your revised affidavit of investigation?

**[02:18:58.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I'm the one who typed? Yes. Being the chief, sir, inuutos ko yung executive officers. But did you read the case in full?

**[02:19:08.120] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, I think, pero not thoroughly. Isang basahan lang.

**[02:19:13.760] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, was there a video recording involved in that case? No. Did that case include a public official like the vice president? In fact, it involved a group of three farmers, correct?

**[02:19:28.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:19:29.040] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, let's go to the case of Reyes v. People. You also cited that page 29 of your affidavit of investigation. Did you read this case in full? If I may check my affidavit,

**[02:19:42.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Your Honor? The witness may do so. Okay,

**[02:20:02.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
sir. Did you read this

**[02:20:04.280] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
case in full?

**[02:20:10.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Did

**[02:20:12.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
you read the facts of this case?

**[02:20:15.930] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think it's about yung threat against a person nung nasa Navy office siya and then sinuntan siya hanggang sa bahay. May dalang mga placard. Yun yata yun, Sir.

**[02:20:30.150] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right, but did it involve a video recording?

**[02:20:32.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, Sir.

**[02:20:33.350] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Did it involve an official like the Vice President?

**[02:20:36.980] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, Sir.

**[02:20:37.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
You cited the Ruaza versus People, page 29. Did you read this case in full?

**[02:20:45.380] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ruaza. Yes, sir.

**[02:20:56.900] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
You read the case. Did it involve, again, a video recording?

**[02:21:02.540] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir.

**[02:21:03.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Did it involve a public official like the vice president?

**[02:21:06.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir.

**[02:21:07.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In fact, it involved three cutting activities. Do you confirm that?

**[02:21:12.460] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Based on the... Three

**[02:21:14.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
cutting. Okay. But at any rate, in paragraph 48 of your affidavit of investigation, and I'll flash that on the screen, after citing all these cases that you mentioned, You concluded, and I will read, further, the threat is intended by VP Duterte to create to the mind of President BBM-FL, former House Speaker, that regardless of the reason of death of VP Duterte, they will be killed by the person contracted by her. So in other words, you spoke about the mind of BBM-FL and the former Speaker, correct?

**[02:21:54.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, what we cited is the principle laid out by the Supreme Court and that the facts of those cases, Your Honor. And those principles is applicable in this case, Your Honor. But that is based only on your own opinion, correct? That is based on our investigation and the evidence that we've gathered, Sir.

**[02:22:10.990] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In fact, I have a different opinion than yours that I will show you. Argumentative, Your Honor. No, no, no. Argumentative. Your Honor,

**[02:22:17.110] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I will introduce a new article.

**[02:22:18.890] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Objection. Argumentative. You don't argue with a witness. You ask questions. If you're not satisfied with the answer... Move on. Atty.

**[02:22:27.460] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Ligutan, kindly allow counsel for the respondent to finish his question.

**[02:22:31.520] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Thank you, Your Honor. The opinion is not mine. This is the opinion of the late Juan Ponce Enrile, who served under BBM as Chief Presidential Legal Counsel. This has been marked as our Exhibit D-4-64. Can we flash that article? Just the title, since we don't have time. This is Juan Ponce Enrile. I'll just read the title. No criminal charge could be made versus Sara Toterte over— Kill remark. So, isn't this opinion inconsistent with your own?

**[02:22:58.200] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I don't have personal knowledge in that, sir.

**[02:23:00.080] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No personal knowledge again. That's okay. I'll be winding up. But do you know the difference between a felony and a crime? There's a difference between the two, correct?

**[02:23:10.610] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, tell me, sir.

**[02:23:12.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
No, I'm not on the witness stand. So, you answer the question.

**[02:23:15.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Mr. Witness, kindly respond to the question. The question is, do you know? So, it's answerable by a yes or no.

**[02:23:22.350] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think felony, sir, is in the revised penal code and a crime can be in the special law.

**[02:23:28.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I agree

**[02:23:28.870] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
with you.

**[02:23:29.550] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
I agree. So in other words, like homicide, for example, it is a felony because it is defined and punished under the RPC, correct?

**[02:23:38.830] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:23:39.610] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Clear. Now, a crime is broader than a felony in that it pertains to acts or omission that are not punishable under the RPC but punishable under special laws, correct? Yes, sir.

**[02:23:53.780] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Like BP 22, for example. It's not within the RPC, but it's covered by special laws, correct?

**[02:24:00.700] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, respectfully, can I now object as to the relevance to an impeachment case of the distinction between a felony and a crime?

**[02:24:15.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just laying the basis, Your Honor. I'll go to that.

**[02:24:15.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
He's on cross. I will give you some leeway, but kindly get to your point, counsel.

**[02:24:22.660] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But you confirm that there are felonies, there are crimes, correct? Yes, sir. Now, there are other high crimes which is another category than felony or crime, correct? Yes, sir. And according to Article 4 of this Articles of Impeachment, there was high crimes that was charged against VP Sara, correct?

**[02:24:47.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:24:48.000] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In other words, it is a different category.

**[02:24:51.960] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
than a felony or crime, correct?

**[02:24:56.820] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
What do you mean by high crimes?

**[02:24:58.300] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
It's a different category from felony or crimes.

**[02:25:01.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, there are high crimes, sir, na nasa Revised Penal Code din.

**[02:25:07.020] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Can you give us an example? That's not a question, Your Honor, please.

**[02:25:12.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If he knows, counsel.

**[02:25:13.300] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
If you know.

**[02:25:14.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If he knows.

**[02:25:15.600] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
It's like a classroom recitation, Your Honor.

**[02:25:18.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, you are very well aware of the fact that you are here as a witness in an impeachment proceeding and that the crime you investigated is being used to charge the Vice President. And as a lawyer, you also are aware of Article XI of the Constitution with respect to accountability of public officers. So if you know, you may answer. If you don't, you

**[02:25:42.810] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
may say that you are not competent or that you do not know. So please respond.

**[02:25:50.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, since kasi kayo nagbabasa, wala akong binabasa, nagre-relay ako sa memory. I cannot answer for now, Your Honor. I need to recheck the book. It does not

**[02:26:02.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
reflect on your competence or knowledge of the law, Atty. Lotoc. It's okay. You were not asked to prepare for this anyway. Thank you, Your Honor. These are questions on cross. So we're giving the counsel for respondents some leeway. Counsel, please proceed.

**[02:26:18.490] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright, my next question is very simple. Is grave threats a felony?

**[02:26:23.320] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Grave threats? That's under the revised penal code? Yes, sir.

**[02:26:25.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Exactly. So, it is a felony because it is defined and punished by the RTC and it is punishable by arresto mayor or one month and one day to six months of imprisonment, correct?

**[02:26:37.640] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, again, objection. What's the relevance? Your Honor! Counsel, let me finish, please. Easy, easy. Now, as to the... What is the penalty for grave threat? That's irrelevant as to the impeachment complaint that we are litigating on the ground of relevance. Unless the council is able to prove the relevance, I will withdraw my objection or order, please.

**[02:27:04.080] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So the connection council, again, you're on a short lease, but I know where you're getting at. Get to it, please.

**[02:27:09.680] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. In other words, grave threats. Is under the jurisdiction of the MTC or RTC as the case may be, correct?

**[02:27:20.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Grade threats? Yeah. Pag grade threats lang, sir.

**[02:27:24.240] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. It is even bailable, correct?

**[02:27:26.460] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Pag grade threats lang, sir. Pero pag in relation to Section 6 of Republic Act 101.75, that's one degree higher, sir.

**[02:27:33.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yeah, but does it change in jurisdiction or still with MTC or RTC?

**[02:27:40.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ano na ba iyon, sir? Prisión correccional. Ano iyong sabi mo, sir? Ano iyong prisión Prisión correccional? Arresto mayor. Arresto mayor. Ang mataas po niyan is?

**[02:27:53.870] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Prisión correccional.

**[02:27:55.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Six months to six years.

**[02:27:57.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
All right. So, either way, it's still under the trial courts, correct? My next question is very simple: is inciting to sedition a felony?

**[02:28:09.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Under the Revised Penal Code, yes, sir.

**[02:28:12.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Aristo Mayor, It's also under the jurisdiction of the trial courts, correct?

**[02:28:16.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:28:18.040] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
It's even bailable, correct?

**[02:28:21.300] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:28:22.800] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So both grave threats and inciting seditions are felonies, correct?

**[02:28:28.100] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:28:29.620] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
In other words, they are not impeachable offenses, if you know.

**[02:28:35.110] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, if you mean by impeachable offenses, whether or not magkakwalify ba siya as betrayal of public trust? It's the appreciation of the judges. Your Honor, wala ko sa amin. Appreciation

**[02:28:50.820] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
of the judges, by that you mean the trial court judges, not the senator judges. No, since impeachment,

**[02:28:55.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
impeachment court po. Yeah,

**[02:28:57.580] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
but there's a possibility that if it's in conflict with the trial court judges' decision, then we have a problem.

**[02:29:05.980] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Anjection or argumentative? I will withdraw that. Ang tanong

**[02:29:09.600] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
niyo? Ah, hindi na.

**[02:29:10.700] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Grave threats and inciting to sedition. You said that it is not high crimes. It is a felony. Objection.

**[02:29:17.670] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
The witness didn't say that. Misleading.

**[02:29:21.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Misleading. Sustained. I'll

**[02:29:24.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
just move on to a new point, Your Honor.

**[02:29:29.970] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel may proceed.

**[02:29:35.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Rafi Tulfoy is recognized for his intervention.

**[02:29:41.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You have two minutes, sir.

**[02:29:44.630] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Judge. Napag-usapan rin lang itong inciting to sedition. Nag-file ka ng kaso inciting to sedition against VP Sara based on dun sa utterances niya yung sa online presscon plus meron pa bang iba? Yes

**[02:30:01.100] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
po, Your Honor. Yung basis po namin, una yung utterances in October 18, 2024. And then kinumpara po namin siya sa utterances in November 23, 2024.

**[02:30:17.370] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
So meron bang elements of sedition doon sa mga utterances niyo?

**[02:30:22.610] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang elements na ini-establish po namin which is under the law is whether or not the speeches would tend to steer the people against the government.

**[02:30:33.420] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So how

**[02:30:34.380] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
would you know kung mag-i-steer yun ng uprising o makukumbine sa mga tao na mag-alsa masa base doon sa utterances ng VP Sara? How did you know?

**[02:30:44.580] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Pangalawa, if I may explain, sir. Pangalawa ho, if the speeches would tend to disturb the peace of the community and If the speeches would tend to undermine public safety...

**[02:30:58.010] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
So how would you know if it will tend to disturb or undermine the peace and order of the community? Paano mo malalaman based doon sa utterances niya?

**[02:31:06.450] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
The fact ko na nag-issue ng statement yung mga government agencies tasked to protect national security at ang sabi ko nila that's an active threat, that's an issue of national security, so definitely na-disturb ko yung ating... How? Well, nag-alala ho ang nasa gobyerno. Kami ho, per se, yung sabi ko kanina… Nag

**[02:31:29.950] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
-alala kayo o nag-alala yung taong bayan? Kasi iba yung nag-aalala kayo, kayo nasa gobyerno, kayo naging bisiga versus nag-aalala yung nakarinig at yung mga at that time ay nagsusubaybay doon sa mga sinasabi ng BP. Nag-alala

**[02:31:45.310] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
po ang taong bayan, definitely.

**[02:31:46.690] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
How?

**[02:31:47.310] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, marami ho kami nakita sa news. Sa comments ng social media.

**[02:31:52.240] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Comments. So that means you factored in yung comments and reactions sa social media doon sa ginawa niyang press conference, doon sa mga utterances niya kung ano yung reaction ng mga netizens na nakapanood.

**[02:32:05.860] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes po, Your Honor.

**[02:32:07.280] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
At ano naman yung mga sinabi doon?

**[02:32:09.540] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, yun nga.

**[02:32:12.980] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung iba nag-worry ano na ba yung mangyayari sa bansa natin, bakit magulo yung mga nasa taas. Ang iba nagsasabi, ano ba ito? Saan ba ito patungo? So

**[02:32:23.560] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
hindi pa rin seditious yun. Nag-worry lang sila saan patungo. Ang seditious is, tama ka dyan BP Zarat. Go-go tayo. Gawin natin yan. Nasa likod niyo kami. Yun yung sedition.

**[02:32:34.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Meron nung ganun na comment din po, Your Honor.

**[02:32:36.900] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Meron?

**[02:32:37.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Meron po. In fact, doon…

**[02:32:38.640] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Ano yung

**[02:32:38.980] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
comment na yun? Kung meron.

**[02:32:41.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung supporter po ng…

**[02:32:43.700] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Ano ang sinabi?

**[02:32:45.500] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Na… Yung nga, yung sa people power, yung sa nasa likod mo kami, kung ano yung... Nasa

**[02:32:55.970] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
likod mo kami, people power, nabanggit yun sa comment section.

**[02:33:00.040] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Sa ano, Your Honor, during interview with the Vice President, doon sa November 23, 2024.

**[02:33:07.200] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
So, meaning, binase mo, isa doon sa mga reasons kung bakit ka nag-file ng kasong sedition, base sa kaniyang utterances, dahil finactor-in mo iyong mga comments noong mga nakapanood?

**[02:33:22.050] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:33:22.690] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Iyong sinasabing supporters?

**[02:33:23.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:33:24.410] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay. Kasi pag sinabi ng mga nagko-comments, 'Nag-worry kami,' I don't think nandoon iyong elements of sedition. Maliban na pag sinabi na, 'Nasa likod mo kami. Let's do it. Go, go, go. Gagawin namin kung anong gusto mong gawin,' things to that effect.

**[02:33:41.550] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Was there? Were there? Comments like those? Meron na kami nakita sa mga Facebook comments, although hindi siya nasama, na hindi siya nasama dito sa investigation. At ano nga ulit, alimbawa? Yung mga Facebook comments, Your Honor, na nagsasabi, oh, lusubin na natin ang Malacanang, tapos may ganun na sign.

**[02:34:01.530] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Lusubin na natin ang Malacanang. Yan

**[02:34:03.050] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
yung comments sa Facebook, yung mga nag-comment. At

**[02:34:05.850] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
meron kang ebidensya tungkol diya.

**[02:34:07.910] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Hindi mo ito haka-haka lang?

**[02:34:09.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kung babalikan ko po, iyon nga po ang sabi ko: during those times, siyempre nagba-browse ho kami. Iyon nga lamang, hindi namin naisama sa authentication.

**[02:34:19.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
No further questions, Your Honor. Thank you, Senator-Judge Raffy Tulfo. The Senate President is recognized. He has two minutes as well.

**[02:34:27.270] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. On the same topic, on inciting to sedition, Atty. Lotoc,

**[02:34:36.390] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Meron ba kayong nakausap na mga tao na naniwala doon sa sinasabi ni Vice President Sara on inciting to sedition? Nakita ko kasi doon sa grave threats, marami kayo in-interview. Pero in this particular case, meron ba kayong at least man lang nakausap na mga tao, inimbestiga further, kung talagang merong epekto iyong kanyang mga sinabi?

**[02:35:03.680] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So far as the cybercrime division is concerned, Your Honor,

**[02:35:08.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi ho kami nakapag-focus diyan. Siguro ang puwedeng makasagot niyan, Your Honor, iyong intelligence service po namin diyan sa issue na iyan. Hindi kami nakapag-focus diyan to conduct investigation on people's comments.

**[02:35:25.860] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Para sa akin kasi, sa kabilang banda, puwede kang magsalita, pero sa kabilang banda, may naniniwala ba sa iyo? So ang gusto kong malaman, kung meron kayong nakausap na mga grupo o anyone, o naimbestigahan ninyo kung naniniwala talaga doon sa kaniyang pinagsasabi.

**[02:35:42.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think ang makakasagot po niyan, iyong intelligence service, iyong director po namin, sir. Sa kaniya po iyong pool ng information.

**[02:35:51.330] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
And then I believe na doon sa mga sinabi niya, nangyari rin ito doon sa two-hour video. Tama po ba?

**[02:36:00.170] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:36:01.970] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Pinatawag ninyo rin itong mga media personalities. Tinanong ninyo ba sa kanila kung

**[02:36:07.550] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Meron sa kanilang naniwala na itong mga sinabi ni Vice President ay inciting to sedition? Dapat naniwala ba sila na iyong mga sinabi ni Vice President during the two-hour video ay pinag-aalsa iyong mga nandoon? O naniniwala they

**[02:36:25.970] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
believe that that is

**[02:36:27.130] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
the theme of what he said?

**[02:36:28.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Not specifically inciting to sedition. Their comments were that they were

**[02:36:33.790] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Na-shock sila. May comment sila doon na nasa is

**[02:36:36.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
nasa real battle mode na siya. May comment siya doon na totoo na ito, seryoso na iyong galit niya. serious.

**[02:36:42.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
He is really angry

**[02:36:44.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
but inciting to sedition is to rise. There

**[02:36:47.710] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
is no such comment during the Q&A portion, Your Honor.

**[02:36:52.690] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
And just to... On a related question, Mr. Presiding Officer, exciting solicitation is serious rin. At kailangan din ito ng attention ng mga intelligence agencies natin. Meron ba kayong coordination with our iba't-ibang intelligence agencies tulad ng National Security Council, ng PNP, ng NBI, not NBI, but ng ibang mga... Security Intelligence Agencies natin, nag-coordinate bang NBI sa kanila? Kayo mismo nag-coordinate ba?

**[02:37:27.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang nag-uusap po dyan, Your Honor, is kasi intelligence matter yan. Ang nag-uusap po yan between intelligence service ng NBI, intelligence units ng AFP. Atty. G.

**[02:37:37.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
department ng PNP. So nasa level po nila iyon, sir.

**[02:37:42.310] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Katulad ng grave threats, pagkakontrata; inciting to sedition, seryoso rito. Gusto kong malaman kung merong effort na ginawa ang NBI para makipag-coordinate sa AFP o sa PNP, dahil ito ang pinag-uusapan natin: pag-aalsa o hinihimok mong mag-alsa. Meron bang ganoong coordination na ginawa ang inyong opisina o ang NBI? Ang

**[02:38:06.980] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
alam ko meron yan, pero nasa level na po yan ng intelligence service namin, Your Honor.

**[02:38:12.600] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[02:38:15.840] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted. Under the records, we thank the distinguished Senate President. What is the pleasure of Senator-Judge Legarda?

**[02:38:33.340] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, just a few questions.

**[02:38:37.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The lady has two minutes. You may proceed when you're ready.

**[02:38:42.460] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
This is just to provide clarity.

**[02:38:44.790] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
For this representation, and just a few questions to Atty. Lotoc.

**[02:38:49.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[02:38:50.770] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Yes. Atty. Lotoc, sa paragraph 53 ng affidavit of investigation na iyong pinirmahan, sabi ninyo po that the Vice President's statements were brought about or motivated by unpleasant circumstances occurring before the November 23, 2024 press conference.

**[02:39:16.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I believe, nabasa ko po yan.

**[02:39:18.340] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Yes.

**[02:39:18.900] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Kasama ba ho dito yung pahayag ng Vice Presidente nung Oktubre 18, 2024? Yes, Your Honor.

**[02:39:26.640] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
It's a

**[02:39:26.720] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
part of your affidavit.

**[02:39:28.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, Your Honor. Yes.

**[02:39:30.680] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Bago naman po magsimula ang press conference noong November 23, mayroon mga pangyayaring kasama ang Chief of Staff, si Atty. Zuleika Lopez,

**[02:39:43.240] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
na may kinalaman sa mga na-cite in contempt sa Kamara, detention—

**[02:39:50.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo.

**[02:39:51.399] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Medical emergency at mga planong paglilipat.

**[02:39:56.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:39:56.479] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Ah, hindi pa po ako tapos. Sorry po.

**[02:39:59.200] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
ng piitan sa Correctional Institute for Women sa Mandaluyong.

**[02:40:06.720] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Tama po ba na mga pangyayaring ito ay naganap

**[02:40:10.410] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
ilang oras bago iyong ginawang press conference na ipinakita ilang beses sa video?

**[02:40:17.050] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Kasama po yan sa investigation namin.

**[02:40:20.990] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Kahapon po, sinabi po ng testigo kayo po na kinonsider ng NBI yung so-called bigger picture. I think those were the words that you used. Sabi niyo pa, you put all the pieces of the puzzle together. In your own words.

**[02:40:40.680] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, your honor.

**[02:40:41.360] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Yes. Para malinaw lamang sa Impeachment Court, trying to absorb everything, saan po yatang bahagi ng affidavit of investigation nakasaad iyong mga factual findings ng NBI tungkol sa mga pangyayari noong November 22 and 23 bago iyong press conference? I was perusing the affidavit of the investigation. And I could not find the detailed circumstances leading to November 23 where where, admittedly, there was emotions, like like an emotional hyperbole or an outburst but the events leading to the press conference. San po yun sa inyong affidavit?

**[02:41:35.320] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think, Your Honor, nasa affidavit of transcription po yan.

**[02:41:39.100] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
I read it a few times. I could not see the detailed events leading to that. Having mentioned the medical emergency, the transfers to the Correctional Institute for Women, and so that the person who will read the affidavit will have a factual, and complete appreciation of the events leading to the press conference. Perhaps your view, having been the person who filed the complaint, may have a different, perhaps, appreciation from my view because I find it somewhat incomplete. And that is just my comment on this because You clearly said you put all the pieces together. And during that time, alam ba ninyo na habang sinasagawa ng NBI ang investigasyong ito, may nakabimbin na direct assault, resistance and disobedience to authority, at grave coercion laban sa Vice President kaugnay iyong insidente na nangyari sa hospital, sa Veterans Medical Center?

**[02:43:01.840] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Narinig ko lang po, Your Honor.

**[02:43:03.140] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Yes, you heard about that. Yes. And was there an investigation that was done regarding that incident?

**[02:43:11.830] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think ang focus po namin, Your Honor, is yung violation ng great threats by the Vice President and inciting to sedition. Now, pagdating ho doon sa nangyari sa Vice Presidente,

**[02:43:25.130] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yun nga sabi ko, hindi ako aware sa kabuan ng facts na yon. Baka yung ibang agency nag-imbestiga po doon. Hindi ako aware, Your Honor, doon

**[02:43:38.460] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
And so,

**[02:43:40.440] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
would the answer, Atty. Lotoc, be a no? Were these taken into consideration in the investigation?

**[02:43:51.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Or would

**[02:43:52.440] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
this be a yes, meaning it is contained in the affidavit which I'm trying to look for as well?

**[02:44:06.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Actually,

**[02:44:12.740] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
ilang beses ko po binasa yung affidavit and what I see is there was A focus on the October 18. But on all the events on November 22 and 23, the detailed events leading to the emotional outburst did not seem complete. And that's what I'm trying to elicit from Atty. Lotoc, our witness, because when we say that we had considered the bigger picture, All the facts and circumstances leading to the cases of great threat and inciting to sedition that were recommended, we want to understand the whole process and the factual context in which it happened. Because if you are to take snapshots of events and focus on October 18 and the press conference, It can shock any person. However, if you see as well the events leading to the emotions and the detention of the chief of staff and the vice president herself, iba pa yung kasong ito, iba pa yung naditina, iba pa yung sinampang kaso at pinagsarahan ng pinto ng ambulansya, kaya nagkaroon ng kasong ganon. I tried.

**[02:45:50.270] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
to read the affidavit a few times and could not find such a comprehensive enumeration of facts by the NBI, and that's why this query.

**[02:46:07.560] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Puwede na po, Your Honor?

**[02:46:09.400] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Yes, please.

**[02:46:11.040] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Meron hong affidavit of transcription kung anong nangyari, and then nag-submit po kami ng authenticated na video para makita ng mga Senator-Judges natin

**[02:46:21.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
kung what happened during those dates, for appreciation po ninyo.

**[02:46:27.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So makikita ko rito kung ano yung nag-took place during the November 23, 2024 online press conference. But then again, as I've said, at in-explain ko na rin ito kahapon, Your Honor, if I may. Kinonsider namin yung situation ni Atty. Zulaica Lopez. Nakita namin yung complaint niya, yung reklamo niya, yung health condition na sinasabi niya. Sinama din po namin yun ano ba yung nangyari.

**[02:47:00.310] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Taking all the situations or the facts and circumstances attendant to that event,

**[02:47:09.450] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi ho na-alter yung the fact na nag-alter ang Vice President ng grave threats against the three. Despite of the fact na merong emotional situation na ganoon. Hindi rin ho na-alter na merong violation na ginawa yung Vice President during that online press conference. And as a matter of fact, even before that emotional situation,

**[02:47:39.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Malinaw ho doon sa utterances, even before that emotional situation, sinasabi ho doon sa utterances, 'Meron na akong kinausap.' So nag-trigger na ho iyon, ma'am. Meron na akong kinausap na isang tao para patayin ang Presidente, ang First Lady, at iyong Speaker of the House. So kahit sinama po namin siya to consider everything, again, Your Honor, hindi ho nabago iyong ginawa ng Vice President. Hindi rin ho nabago na iyong instruction niya is relentless in killing the three.

**[02:48:16.750] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Atty. Lotoc, what I've been trying to ask is not just just the utterances which we've watched several times, but all the events leading to the utterances. And that is what I want. I understand what you're saying that there were... attachments or transcription. But the transcription would not be considered an assessment or an investigation. These were perhaps attached as transcription. And you earlier said that the threats are circumstantial. And that is the reason why I was looking for that in the affidavit of the investigation.

**[02:49:05.400] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
In short, para pong nakulangan ako, pero kung sinabi ninyong in-attach ninyo iyong transcript, so be it. But then, if you will read the fifty-plus pages again of your investigation, it seemed to me, at least at this point, that snapshots were taken focusing on October 18 and the utterances. But there seem to be events leading to it that may not have been included.

**[02:49:45.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
With the indulgence of Senator-Judge Legarda, kindly wind up, ma'am.

**[02:49:49.000] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Yes. So the last question, thank you Mr. Presiding Officer. Na-interview rin niyo po ang mga membro ng media and you asked them factual information. Did you also ask them about the emotional state?

**[02:50:04.920] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
ng mga kalahok sa media, iyong mga pangyayaring naganap bago ginawa iyong mga naturang pahayag. In short, not just the factual statement, but the atmosphere, the events leading to that Zoom press conference that led to the perceived or alleged utterances.

**[02:50:27.060] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Wala po iyan sa minutes of meeting, sa Q&A. Wala po iyan, Your Honor.

**[02:50:33.630] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Should you not have asked the members of media and the others who were part of that so that you would have in your own words sir the complete picture so that everything is taken into consideration on why such a highly placed person would give such utterances because such conditions existed that might have just might have elicited it but you did not do that investigation or at least conversations with the members of media, I leave it at that.

**[02:51:06.020] Sen. Loren Legarda**  
Thank you for answering my questions.

**[02:51:08.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator Judge Legarda. Senator Judge Pangilinan, you're recognized. Yes, thank you, Mr. President. And you

**[02:51:15.260] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
may proceed when

**[02:51:15.800] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
you're ready. A few questions on inciting to sedition. Yes, Your Honor. For the witness, kasi pinapaliwanag mo yung sinasagot mo yung tanong ni Senate President Winn kanina, no? Nasa NBI ka na Cybercrime Division since 2018.

**[02:51:35.580] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. So,

**[02:51:37.120] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
naalala mo ba yung kaso ni Ronell Mas? Yung taga Zambales na nagkaroon ng Facebook post. Yes,

**[02:51:48.960] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Sir. Naalala ko po pero hindi kami mahahawag ng case na yan. Pero

**[02:51:51.980] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
kung maalala mo dahil division ninyo ang nagsampan ng kasong inciting to sedition. Tama ba?

**[02:52:00.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I-check ko yung record. Hindi po yata kung may hanggang. Well,

**[02:52:03.270] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
to refresh your memory.

**[02:52:06.530] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Nag-post siya sa social media offering 50 million to anyone who would kill former President Duterte. At that time, he was

**[02:52:15.610] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
the President. So, you

**[02:52:16.690] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
remember that?

**[02:52:17.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. That's the news.

**[02:52:19.450] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Tapos, inaresto siya. Sabi niya, I will give 50 million reward kung sino makapatay sa dating Presidente. So, Nakita ng inyong division na ito ay inciting to sedition, tama? Yes, sir.

**[02:52:34.370] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
And therefore, sinampahan siya ng anti-crime, anti-cybercrime law.

**[02:52:40.450] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, sir.

**[02:52:41.330] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Meron ding isang kaso, 14 May 2020, dito naman sa Osamis, pero palagay ko police investigation ito, no? Pero same, Cybercrime Prevention Act, inciting to sedition, ginamit ang Facebook account. Joe Mark Medina and posted that he would give 150 million to anyone who would kill then President Duterte. So, ito rin naging kaso ng anti-cybercrime law.

**[02:53:08.860] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Nabalitaan din po namin.

**[02:53:10.080] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay. So, dito sa dalawang ito, in other words, to explain inciting to sedition, ang ganitong mga remarks have the tendency precisely to

**[02:53:23.450] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
to, if not attack the government, mobilize individuals or people to go against the government?

**[02:53:36.710] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:53:37.790] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So that is what you found in the later case of inciting to sedition that you have recommended for preliminary investigation against the Vice President? As

**[02:53:49.030] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
a matter of fact,

**[02:53:53.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Heated arguments namin during that time noong ina-analyze namin iyong case. Nagtanong kami sa sarili namin: if we allow this unaddressed, iyong ganiyan na nagbabanta sa buhay ng Presidente, pag hinayaan lang natin at iyan iyong maging norms ng ating society, kahit sino na lang po puwedeng gawin iyon. At alam ho natin, magkakagulo pag ganoon at walang regulation at pag hindi ho ni-restrict iyan. Sasabihin naman ng mga tao, 'Okay naman pala kahit mag-threat ka.' Lalo na ngayon dahil sa social media, malaking impluwensiya. Pag nakikitang nangyayari ito at hindi natutugunan— sabi

**[02:54:33.030] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
niyo may problem.

**[02:54:33.670] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Thank you. Thank you. Thank

**[02:54:34.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
you for your honor.

**[02:54:37.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What is the pleasure of Senator Judge Villanueva?

**[02:54:41.080] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Yes, Mr. Presiding Officer. Just one question, quick question on this particular topic on inciting to sedition, if I may. The gentleman named proceed. Yes. Again, let me ask the witness just to clarify the factual basis for the National Bureau of Investigation's possible inciting to sedition. We recognize, Mr. Witness, yung strong criticism of the President may fall within the realm of what we call protected political speech. It's really a balance and somehow yun yung nagpapa-confuse paminsan. Kailan nagpo-fall into grave threats? Kailan nagpo-fall into inciting to sedition? Pero bilang investigador, ano po yung nakikita ninyo sa mga pahayag at sa surrounding circumstances na naging basihan po ng NBI para tignan ito bilang posibleng inciting?

**[02:55:51.270] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Well, una, kinonsider namin sino yung utterer. So, una, yung utterer, the Vice President, the second highest official of the land. Then, pangalawa, kinonsider namin ano ba yung mga inutter ng Vice President. And then, pangatlo, ano ba yung surrounding circumstances na

**[02:56:17.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Like naging reaction ng recipient ng utterances or threats.

**[02:56:24.510] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Nakita namin na kung pwede palang gawin ito ng isa sa pinakamataas na posisyon ng Pilipinas at hindi natin ito ia-address, hindi natin i-reregulate. E pwede na rin po pala itong gawin ng kahit na sino. Remember, Your Honor, Vice President is kinukonsidero natin na model bilang public official. So tinitingnan po natin siya kung ano yung actuations niya sa public, kung ano yung pakikipagrelasyon niya sa ibang public official. So again, Your Honor, nung makikita po namin yan, may effect po eh sa mga tao. Eh kung ang Vice President kayang gawin yan at wala namang nangyari, gawin na rin natin yung iba. Ang iniexplain ko nga kahapon, may pattern, may consistency, and the fact na bold yung mga statement, pupugutan ng ulo, this country will go to hell because the person na nakuha po is hindi marunong maging presidente, yun yung mga factor ho yun, finactorin namin. Pag nakita ito ng taong bayan at walang kilos na ginawa yung gobyerno, parang domino effect po yan, ah pwede na. So sunod-sunod na, alam naman po natin ang nangyayari sa social media.

**[02:57:53.970] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So nakita namin na dangerous ito, alarming siya. So definitely, noong nag-imbestiga ang NBI at nakalap nito lahat ng kinakailangang ebidensiya, iyong findings po namin, kasama po doon iyong inciting to sedition.

**[02:58:08.810] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Is it safe to say na iyong pinaka-core nito is that when it falls under that category na it—

**[02:58:20.190] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Do you use the same methodology as you used doon sa grave threats? For example, iyong four stages na binanggit po ninyo: identification, collection, analysis, legal evaluation. Iyong elements na binanggit ninyo yesterday, iyong factors considered—delivery, literal meaning, nature, relationship to the parties, blah, blah, blah—ito ba?

**[02:58:43.400] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Opo.

**[02:58:43.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
kasama po yan sa analysis namin. Ano yung efekto nito sa publiko pag ito yung naging norms na natin? So

**[02:58:50.480] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
this is the same, the same na ginamit po ninyo?

**[02:58:53.960] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[02:58:54.460] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
And last but not the least, Your Honor, Mr. Witness, for purposes of investigating itong inciting to sedition, may we clarify? Because it was, I don't know if Senator Bongo may mention about this. To

**[02:59:08.550] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
clarify lang, is it necessary?

**[02:59:12.230] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Is it

**[02:59:12.950] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
necessary that

**[02:59:13.070] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
someone was actually incited?

**[02:59:18.280] Sen. Joel Villanueva**  
Yun po ba? Just for purposes of investigating itong inciting to sedition. Is it necessary that someone was actually incited para mag-fall dito?

**[02:59:31.380] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, ang basis po namin, yung people versus nabong if I'm not mistaken, in order to be seditious yung speeches, It is not necessary na mayroong actual sedisyon. The law also penalizes or punishes those statements na mag-i-encourage to overthrow the government or to steer the people against the government or to disturb the peace of the community. Or to undermine public safety and public order. Thank you for the clarification. Thank you. Thank you,

**[03:00:05.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
sir. Senator Judge Hercito, thereafter, Senator Judge Villar, Mark. What is your pleasure, sir?

**[03:00:13.760] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Yes, thank you, Mr. President, for just one question. You may proceed, sir. Nabanggit mo kanina yung admission against interest. Mali po ba niyong ipaliwanag para maintindihan po ng nakarami? At why did you rely on this if ever ito pong admission against interest?

**[03:00:34.790] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:00:37.310] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Maalala po natin yung November 2023 yung utterances niya na that she had already contracted a person to kill the President, the First Lady, and the former Speaker and that she instructed to be relentless.

**[03:00:51.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Itong utterance una to, instead na i-deny niya which is Definitely, it should be denied kasi that's against her interest. Instead na i-deny niya po iyon, nung November 26 na video, nung tinalong siya openly and in public, kung sinabi niya iyon, nire-iterate pa po niya, Your Honor. In fact, inadmit po niya na oo nga, may kinausap akong tao tungkol dyan. And in fact, sabi niya, may krimen ba? Ano ang nakikita ang

**[03:01:26.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
krimen doon sa... May kinausap akong tao na pag namatay ako, patayin mo si BBM, patayin mo si Speaker, patayin mo si Lisa Marcos.

**[03:01:34.840] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Was this, ano, ito pong sinasabing yung admission against interest, was this considered in your investigation?

**[03:01:42.680] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Kasama po yun. Yun nga yung naging basis namin na aside doon sa atterances niya na no joke, no joke. Kasi mukhang hindi yung no joke no joke sufficient na ba na talagang seryoso siya? Nung makita ko namin yung video na nire-iterate pa niya at nag-admit siya, we concluded na seryoso ang vice-presidente nung in-atter niya yun. Thank

**[03:02:06.760] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
you for your questions, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you,

**[03:02:09.480] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Senator Judge. Senator

**[03:02:10.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Judge Mark Villar, you have two minutes, sir.

**[03:02:13.950] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
Thank you. Just a brief question for the witness. You mentioned...

**[03:02:17.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, Your Honor. Thank

**[03:02:18.550] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
you. You mentioned earlier that There are many factors that come into play when you decide whether or not to file charges regarding grave thefts.

**[03:02:29.210] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
There are many

**[03:02:30.070] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
factors in how you decide what constitutes a grave threat. And I wanted to know what weight do you give those factors? Are there certain aspects of a grave threat that you put more importance on? Whether it's the type of threat or who the threat is made to?

**[03:02:46.870] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
Does the NBI give more weight to a particular element?

**[03:02:52.080] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. It's a convolution of these factors na kinonsider namin. Una, yung delivery or manner in which the utterances were spoken which is sabi ko nga nasa atmosphere kung saan furious. Atty. J. Magalito, Atty.

**[03:03:15.230] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Aside from delivery and manner, kinonsider namin iyong literal meaning noong statement, which is, on its face, makikita natin na even before the press conference was held on November 23, 2024—in fact, even before the question was thrown by Princess Maui to the Vice President—the Vice President had already contracted [unclear].

**[03:03:38.240] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
What do you give the most weight to? I'm aware that you have different factors that come into play. Is there a specific? Because, binanggit niyo po yung, nabawa, meron kayong two tests for grave threat. Binanggit niyo po kahapon. I just wanted to know, what is the basis for, or if there is a hierarchy in the level, in all these elements? If there is a hierarchy, not what the elements are, but is there a hierarchy when you decide on whether or not to file charges of great threats?

**[03:04:11.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, it's a combination ng lahat po eh, na factor po eh. So

**[03:04:16.160] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
nothing is given more weight than, not one, in your past experiences, you've never... Everything is equal, all these factors that you've mentioned.

**[03:04:26.130] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, in this case, yung literal meaning, at the same time yung nature ng instruction.

**[03:04:31.950] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
Is it more of the type of the actual threat? If it's a death threat or if it's a, bag-ao, kung sasabi niya, whether it's a threat, is the gravity of the threat a factor or is it who the threat is made to? Yes,

**[03:04:45.290] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor. Something

**[03:04:45.930] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
that triggers your investigation more. I mean, is there a factor that you place more weight to? Or that you place more weight to when deciding whether or not to file these charges?

**[03:04:57.360] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung status ng nagsasabi nun? When

**[03:05:01.560] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
you made the decision, I was curious as to what factors did you put the most weight to?

**[03:05:07.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung nature of the instruction as well as yung the fact na may kinausap na siya bago pa man siya tanungin. Yun po yung dalawa na yun, Sir.

**[03:05:15.240] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
And these are defined but the... Are these defined in any legal, or is this just purely the discretion of the NBI, or is there a particular definition in the law that would create a hierarchy? I

**[03:05:28.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
would say it satisfies the elements of grade threats, Your Honor.

**[03:05:32.880] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
Okay, okay. But it's not necessarily defined in the law. A lot of it is open to interpretation of the NBI.

**[03:05:40.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Based on facts, nakita ho namin. Atty.

**[03:05:45.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Papasok ba yung elementong ganito, elementong ganyan, elementong ganon. Nung nagkaroon kami ng findings, nirefero namin sa DOJ, DOJ sir, ito ang findings namin, ano po masasabi nyo? Then nag-issue ho ng certification ng DOJ at ang sabi ng DOJ, certified all of the elements required for the crime charge is complete. So pwede na tayo mag-proceed sa preliminary investigation.

**[03:06:09.940] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
Thank you. Importante po kasi na ma-define po natin kuno po yung grave threat, kuno po yung... And I just want to know what latitude does the NBI have in deciding whether or not to file a charge of grave threat.

**[03:06:22.700] Sen. Mark A. Villar**  
Yes, Your Honor. Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you,

**[03:06:25.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Mark Villar, counsel for the respondent.

**[03:06:29.380] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Last few

**[03:06:30.660] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
questions, sir. Apologies. Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo, you

**[03:06:39.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
may proceed when you're ready, sir. You have no more than two minutes.

**[03:06:43.020] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Thank you. Just one quick question to our witness.

**[03:06:50.920] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
Inciting to sedition po yung kinaso ninyo. Opo. Tama. Pero hindi ba nagboborder ito yung inciting to sedition to propaganda? Kasi po ayon po sa diksyonaryo. Propaganda is a form of communication that aims to shape the people's belief, action, or behavior. Na you say something para udyukan yung tao, para magalit. So nagboborder ito between propaganda and inciting to sedition. What made you say that this is inciting to sedition yung pinagsasabi ni Vice President Sarah Zimmerman Duterte?

**[03:07:37.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor, we consider the elements ng inciting to sedition, one of which is yung whether the speeches disturbs the community. And then in-explain ko na po kanina yung mga comments. At the same time, yung responses ng recipients gaya ng several government agencies and the President himself, as well as the Speaker of the House. And then, Your Honor, whether it would undermine public... Sa safety and in public order which is malinaw dun sa comments at reaction ng ating, Atty.

**[03:08:13.540] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
G. L.

**[03:08:15.360] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Presidential Communications Office. So pinapakita nila doon na alarming yung situation, it's an active threat, at the same time it's a matter of national security,

**[03:08:29.660] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
G. L.

**[03:08:33.100] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In fact, May classification pa nga yung ibang agency natin na yung kinausap is assassin.

**[03:08:42.450] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Both the PNP and the PCO. So sila ho nakalampag ho sila itong mga government agency na to doon sa utterances na ginawa ng vicepresidente. So aside from that fact nakikita ho rin namin yung comments from social media platforms na meron ho talagang nabubuong

**[03:09:05.220] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Magiging kaguluhan. Although sabi ko nga po kanina, yung comments sa mga Facebook at social media platforms, hindi lang namin nakasama sa affidavit of investigation po namin, Your Honor.

**[03:09:16.900] Sen. Erwin Tulfo**  
All right, thank you. Mr. Wittes.

**[03:09:19.180] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator Judge Erwin Tulfo. Counsel for the respondent, for the continuation of your cross, I heard you say... Last few

**[03:09:27.410] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
questions, Your Honor.

**[03:09:28.510] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
After the cross, before we direct, we shall pause for a 15-minute break. Council for the Respondent may proceed.

**[03:09:37.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Atty. Lotoc, does a Filipino citizen have the right to express dissatisfaction with our government?

**[03:09:43.280] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Definitely, sir.

**[03:09:44.240] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
This is part of freedom of speech, correct?

**[03:09:46.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[03:09:47.080] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And as long as we do not commit an act to overthrow the government, this is allowed, correct?

**[03:09:52.430] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
It depends, sir, kung magpo-fall siya sa inciting to sedition.

**[03:09:55.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
But in that press conference, did VP Sara directly urge the public to overthrow the government?

**[03:10:02.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
There was no such kind of a statement but there was a sort of tendency because of those utterances.

**[03:10:10.760] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. She merely voiced out her personal opinion during the press conference. Opinions during the press conference.

**[03:10:19.470] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I cannot answer to that, Your Honor. Based doon sa nakahalap namin kung anong nandito.

**[03:10:28.630] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That's okay. So, and just like any other ordinary Filipino,

**[03:10:33.590] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
who has the freedom of speech, she should be allowed to do that, correct?

**[03:10:38.170] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[03:10:40.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Unless we are under martial law again, she should be able to speak, correct?

**[03:10:48.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I cannot speak kung iyong situation na iyan. That's hypothetical, sir.

**[03:10:52.820] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Nothing further, Your Honors.

**[03:10:54.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, counsel for the respondent. Again, as stated by the Presiding Officer,

**[03:11:01.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
wala pa kayong balak mag-break talaga.

**[03:11:05.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator-Judge Soto, let's give way to seniority. Thereafter, Senator Judge Pangilinan. You may

**[03:11:16.510] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
proceed, sir. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. This will be very quick. Haliligaw ako eh. Because I think that even some members of the public that are watching, haliligaw sa discussion of grape threat and exciting decision. Di ba sa regular courts naka-charge yun, Mr. Witness?

**[03:11:40.210] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
As far as I know, as far as the NBI Cybercrime Division is concerned, wala pa ho sa court, Your Honor. Nasa preliminary investigation pa lang ho ng case natin.

**[03:11:50.250] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Pero sa regular courts pina-file yun, di ba? Yes,

**[03:11:52.570] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
po. Ang

**[03:11:53.490] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
naka-file dito sa impeachment court, betrayal of public trust, di ba? Opo, Your Honor. At saka other high crimes. Yes, po, Your Honor. Hindi grave threat at saka inciting to sedition, di ba?

**[03:12:07.240] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
I think yung Article 4 yata may nakalagay doon, Your Honor.

**[03:12:12.600] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Pero hindi yun ang main charge, di ba? Yes, Your Honor. Betrayal Public Trust. Opo. Sige. Kasi naliligaw ako eh. Thank

**[03:12:20.460] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
you, po,

**[03:12:20.760] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Your Honor.

**[03:12:21.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Sen. Judge Soto. Sen. Judge Pangilinan?

**[03:12:23.720] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Yes, very quickly lang dahil napag-usapan natin ito since nag-umpisa tayo ng hearing. Yung authenticated video ba ay AI?

**[03:12:34.279] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir.

**[03:12:35.239] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Ito ba ay fabricated?

**[03:12:38.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir. It's not.

**[03:12:39.279] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Ito ba ay spliced?

**[03:12:40.680] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi po, sir.

**[03:12:41.240] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
So, in other words, yung video ay accurate?

**[03:12:48.420] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[03:12:49.300] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
And representation of what happened? Authenticated. Kasi dalawang linggo na nating dinedebate kung ia-admit ba o hindi, o etc., etc. Hindi naman din sinasabi ng...

**[03:13:01.370] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
prosecution na altered or spliced, o iyong defense na altered or spliced. Tama?

**[03:13:08.690] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[03:13:09.730] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay. Yes, go ahead.

**[03:13:11.530] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, obviously, one of the ways to identify whether AI siya o hindi, isa ho doon iyong tinatawag naming visual analysis. Number one, iyong human anatomy anomalies. So, pag iyong merong asymmetrical facial feature,

**[03:13:29.850] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Pag mayroong unnatural positioning of hands, pag mayroong tinatawag na—

**[03:13:36.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Magiging 6 o 7 yung daliri, ganun. Pag mayroong... And then kinoconsider din namin yung tinatawag naming temporal artifacts doon sa visual analysis. Meaning kung sa one frame ito ang condition, then pag tinuloy-tuloy mo nang i-play, isan mawawala yung buhok, mawawala yung rilo. So wala akong gano'n na mga circumstances na natin tanahin.

**[03:13:54.870] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So for the record,

**[03:13:55.570] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
lahat ng mga video na pinakita natin dito sa impeachment court, na pinakita ng defense at ng prosecution, lahat yun authentic? Yes, Your Honor. For the record, no? Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:14:05.510] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Whether the witness or at least both. Okay. Just to put it also on record na dito sa mga sinulat, kasi nung nag-investig kayo, sumagot yung lawyer, di ba? Ni Vice President... Sarah, itong dated Annex

**[03:14:29.200] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
I, sorry. No, Annex J. Yung Annex J, sinasabi, sumagot yung Vice President, ah, yung abogado ng Vice President na our

**[03:14:42.770] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
client vehemently denies Annex K. Having made any threat constituting grave threats under two... Artikel 282 of the Revised Penal Code in relation to so forth and so on. Since your office acknowledges that it has access to publicly available materials on the internet, we are confident that the content and context of the entire press conference subject matter of your investigation will bear this out.

**[03:15:15.400] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So my

**[03:15:16.060] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
question is, ito ba yung ginamit ninyong video? Yung sinasabi nilang it has...

**[03:15:23.030] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Since your office has access to publicly available material. I

**[03:15:28.400] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
believe so, Your Honor. In fact, yung video na yan is existing up to May 25, 2017.

**[03:15:35.420] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
in other words, kahit ang Vice President's Office referred to the video in your possession as part of yung kanyang clarification and defense.

**[03:15:47.080] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Na hindi grave threats ang nangyari.

**[03:15:48.840] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:15:49.520] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Okay, thank you. No other question for this part.

**[03:15:51.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Chair Declares.

**[03:15:54.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Do you want to do that now, Sen. Judge Padilla? Yes, Sen. Judge Padilla would like to interject before we go on a break. You may proceed, sir.

**[03:16:06.580] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Maraming salamat po, ginoong Tagapamahala na hukong at sa ating ginoong Pangulo.

**[03:16:13.690] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Maari po ba makapagtanong sa ating mahal na saksi?

**[03:16:16.570] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, Your Honor.

**[03:16:17.630] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Maari po. Ang una kong katanungan sana ay tagal saan po kayo na lugar, na probinsya? Tacloban, Sir. Takloban. Takloban City, Sir. Kayo po ngayon ay Regional Director ng NBI sa BARM. Yes, Sir. Opo. Yun po ba ay isang promosyon para sa inyo na madala sa BARM? Dahil... Totoo po ba na kayo ang tinatawag na golden boy ngayon sa NBI?

**[03:16:51.860] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I cannot comment on that po, Your Honor. Kasi po ang... Nasa barm po ako. Wala ako ngayon sa office.

**[03:17:00.440] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Promotion po ba yun? Yung napunta kayo sa barm? Balita ako po kasi ilang beses na kayo na-promote sa NBI. 12

**[03:17:10.110] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
years na po kayo sa NBI. Yes, sir. Ilang beses na po kayo na-promote?

**[03:17:15.890] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Since na pumasok ko ako sa NBI, from Investigation 1, 2, 3 noong 2015, 2016.

**[03:17:29.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, nung mula ako na pumasok ako sa Academy, from Investigation 1 hanggang ngayon sa Regional Director,

**[03:17:35.180] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Sir. Ilang beses po yan?

**[03:17:38.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Sa isang taon po ah? Sa isang taon? Kailang, anong taon po, Sir, ang tinutukoy niyo?

**[03:17:44.010] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Bago po kayo napunta sa BARM.

**[03:17:46.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Bago ako napunta sa BARM, regional director po ako ng Mimaropa. Mimaropa. Region 4B, sir. Opo.

**[03:17:53.870] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kayo po ba ang pumili sa BARM? Hindi po, sir. In

**[03:17:57.410] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
the ex-agency of service, doon po kami nilalagay kung ano ang tingin ng director na makakatulong kami sa bureau.

**[03:18:04.850] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Bakit po kaya naisip ng director na sa BARM po kayo? Kayo po ba ay may kaalaman sa Islam?

**[03:18:13.780] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi ko po alam kung ano ang naging basis ng direktor pero... Kayo

**[03:18:18.600] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
po mismo. Kayo po mismo. Ang barn po kasi is Muslim Mindanao.

**[03:18:24.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:18:25.820] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Meron po kayong kaalaman sa Islam?

**[03:18:30.070] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
In terms of... What

**[03:18:32.050] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
do you mean kaalaman, Sir? Sa

**[03:18:33.710] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
religion po ng Islam kasi Muslim Mindanao. So ibig sabihin kahit basic po siguro ng Islam, no?

**[03:18:40.980] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Kahit naman sino pwedeng i-assign kahit saang regional office dito sa Pilipinas. Ah, di

**[03:18:46.920] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
ba po parang autonomy ang autonomous region ng Muslim Mindanao. So, kailangan naman siguro kahit paano merong kayong kaalaman sa Islam. Konti siguro, sir. Ano po yung konti na yan?

**[03:19:04.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, isa po akong Kristiyano at hindi ko ho malalaman iyong kabuuan. Siguro—

**[03:19:13.610] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
po dapat meron kayong basic din na knowledge ng Islam. Sa pangalawang

**[03:19:19.500] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
tanong po, okay na po yun. Sa

**[03:19:20.980] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
pangalawang tanong po, meron po ba kayong, sa tagal niyo po sa NBI, 12 years, meron po ba kayong na-encounter na kaso ninyo sa NBI? Kayo po mismo na-file-an ng kaso?

**[03:19:34.140] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, normal ho sa mga NBI agents na makakasuhan, in fact maging sa sino mang law enforcement agency, that's the price we pay. For doing our job and for protecting the country. As a matter of fact, in the NBI, your honor, we avoid the noise. We just finish the job. So ano po yan? Yes? Yes po yan? Yung sagot niyo? Yes?

**[03:19:57.130] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Normal po yan yun sa amin. So yes po?

**[03:20:00.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer the question.

**[03:20:02.430] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Yes, sir. Yes. Ano pong pwede po bang malaman kung ano pong mga naikaso sa inyo?

**[03:20:07.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, wala po pong natanggap na official case galing sa ombudsman. Pero may nakita na po akong complaint.

**[03:20:13.270] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
na binigay sa akin from NBI. Hindi ko na humaalala yung sa case na yan. Pero nung chineck po namin yung case na yan, Your Honor, sabi ko doon sa mga kasama ko, tingnan nyo nga yung validity at authenticity ng case na ito. Tinuntahan po namin yung nagnotaryo,

**[03:20:32.610] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
nagnotaryo, at iyong Makati Court iyon. Iyong Makati Court nag-issue po ng certification na fake iyong notary. Diyan

**[03:20:40.830] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Diyan sa reklamo na iyan, sabi ko, huwag ninyo nang pansinin. Marami tayong trabaho. Kung fake iyong notaryo na iyan, mere scrap of paper iyan. Huwag na nating pansinin. Although nag-aantay po ako, Your Honor, na mag-notify sa akin ang Ombudsman kasi sasagutin po namin na ito ang nakaalap namin: may dalawang Chinese na nagreklamo. Chineck po namin doon sa BI. Iyong dalawang Chinese na iyan, I think, nine months nang overstaying at pinaghahanap din ng Bureau of Immigration.

**[03:21:07.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ano pong kaso po? Yung

**[03:21:08.930] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
ipinatong sa inyo, anong kaso?

**[03:21:10.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi ko maalala, Your Honor. May mga kaso doon na nakalagay. Wala po kayong

**[03:21:16.770] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
isa kahit maalala na ipinatong sa inyo?

**[03:21:21.310] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
If I'm not mistaken, arbitrary detention? May unlawful arrest?

**[03:21:29.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Wala ho sa akin ng record kasi nga sabi ko nga nung makita namin na fake yung notary, hindi na ho namin binigyan ng pansin, Your Honor.

**[03:21:40.350] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kasi napaka-kapal po nitong hawak ko.

**[03:21:44.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Wala akong problema, Ronald. Sasagutin po namin yan. Hindi

**[03:21:48.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
niyo pa po nasagot magmula nung February 29.

**[03:21:51.300] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kasi wala pa akong official notice galing sa kung anong ahensya.

**[03:21:55.440] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Nakarating po sa inyo, wala pa?

**[03:21:56.760] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Wala pa po. Ang nakuha ko lang, yung kopya niyan, siguro may nagpadala sa akin. Sabi ko, teka muna, wala akong official na nare-receive sa OMB. So, nung check-in ko namin, If the case exists, if the notary is fake,

**[03:22:11.390] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
we don't have

**[03:22:12.010] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
to So, ibig nyo pong sabihin hanggang ngayon, hindi kayo sigurado kung nag-i-exist

**[03:22:16.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Dapat may notice na ako from Umbudsman. Di ba

**[03:22:19.390] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
ba po dapat ang reaction ng isang tao kapag may kaso, harapin?

**[03:22:24.680] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Precisely, Your Honor. Hinihintay ko nga po iyong notice from the Ombudsman.

**[03:22:29.460] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Wala po kayong notice hanggang ngayon?

**[03:22:31.500] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Wala pa po, Your Honor. Iyon nga ang inaantay ko kasi sasagutin namin, kasi meron po kaming certification na fake iyong notary.

**[03:22:40.180] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Inaantay ko po, Your Honor. Mas maganda po, maharap niyo kagad. Definitely, di na namin tatakbuhan

**[03:22:46.480] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
yan, Sir.

**[03:22:47.000] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kasi napakahalaga po ngayon nito.

**[03:22:49.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Sir.

**[03:22:50.360] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ito po ay ang pinag-uusapan natin dito ay napakahalaga. Yes, Sir. Opo, at ito pong mga kasong ipinatong sa inyo, perjury, robbery, extortion, theft, mainam po ito.

**[03:23:06.970] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
As I've said, Your Honor, in the NBI, we avoid the noise. We just finish the job, sir. Opo.

**[03:23:11.670] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo. Meron po po akong tanong. Pangatlo. Opo. Kanina po na ang ganda nung talakayan nyo tungkol sa Romanub. Yes, sir. Opo. Alam niyo po ba yung istorya nung Romanub? At ang gaganda po ng mga sagutan ninyo... Alam niyo po ba yung historical background ng Romanov? Ang

**[03:23:29.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
alam ko lang po, John, Your Honor, yun yung nangyari sa, I think, Tsar, kung hindi ako nagkakamali, sa Russia. Sa Russia,

**[03:23:35.650] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
opo. Sino po ba yung nakakalaban ng Tsar?

**[03:23:39.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, hindi ko po maalala. Hindi ko po nakita yung buong... Ah, iyon.

**[03:23:42.720] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kasi napakahalaga po malaman ng taong bayan kung sino po ang tinatawag natin na Romanov at sino yung nakakalaban nila. Kasi po, katabi ko ang isa sa Marcos family, Yes, sir. Alam naman po natin lahat, batid natin lahat, na si Apu Lacay, Ferdinand Marcos Sr., ang number one na lumaban sa komunista dito sa Pilipinas. Batid naman din po natin na ang nag-execute sa Czar, kay Nicolay at sa kanyang mga anak, sa kanyang pamilya ay ang komunista. Alam mo po ba niyo? Yes, sir.

**[03:24:23.100] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ngayon, sino po ba ang pangalawang Pangulo na lumaban sa komunista?

**[03:24:30.450] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Sino po, sir? Ay, di si Pangulong Rodrigo Roja Duterte.

**[03:24:37.110] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Hindi ba po dapat isipin natin yung Romanog ay tungkol sa threat na pumapasok sa mga pamilya na mga namumuno dito sa ating bayan na lumalaban sa komunista? Komunista po ako, ah. Gusto ko lamang pong alamin ninyo. Yes, sir.

**[03:24:55.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, and so far as the investigation on the issue of whether or not may Romanov or operation of Romanov, ang sabi ko po kanina, nasa intelligence service po namin yan, at I think ang makakasagot po niyan, your honor, yung director po namin. Opo,

**[03:25:09.040] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
kasi nabanggit niyo kanina sa usapan po ninyo, si Baste, na sinasabi niyo po kasi kanina sa usapan po ninyo, sa napakagandang usapan, na yung Romanov hindi na ipapaliwanag kasi kung... Ano ba yung ugat nun? Napakahalaga po na alam natin yung ugat. Si Presidente Marcos Sr. ang lumaban sa komunista kaya nagkaroon ng threat noong 1986.

**[03:25:41.050] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ngayon, sinasabi ni Bastet na nagkakaroon ng threat sa kanilang pamilya sapangkat alam naman nating lahat na ang nagpatuloy.

**[03:25:54.670] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Nang paglaban sa komunista, pagkatapos ni Pangulong Rodrigo Roa Duterte, ay si Inday Sara Duterte ang ating Vice President. Sumasang-ayon po ba kayo doon?

**[03:26:05.930] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Wala po akong personal knowledge, sir.

**[03:26:07.910] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ay, bakit po kayo walang personal knowledge? Eh, yun po ang sumunod na assignment ng ating DC Presidente pagkaupo niya. Siya po ang nag-takeover ng NTFL. Kak! Hindi po alam ng NBI yun.

**[03:26:20.480] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well... Nag-NTFL kak siya, pero yung factual circumstances doon... Factual? Wala po po akong... Wala po kayong... Pero

**[03:26:33.030] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
alam niyo po, sagutin na lang po ninyo na siya ang nag-takeover ng NTFL kak.

**[03:26:37.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:26:38.630] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Opo. Isa na lang po ginaong tagapamahal ng hukum. Sabi niyo po kanina, uliting ko lang po, gusto ko lang pong malaman uli.

**[03:26:51.590] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Inamin niyo po na wala kayong personal knowledge tungkol dun sa threat ng Pangulo.

**[03:26:57.530] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Sabi niyo po kanina, wala kayong personal knowledge na kumuha na ng assassin o papatay sa Pangulo, ang pangalawang Pangulo.

**[03:27:07.970] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
During that time,

**[03:27:11.990] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
ongoing ang validation namin.

**[03:27:14.350] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Ibig ninyong sabihin, ngayon meron na kayong personal knowledge?

**[03:27:18.350] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi po, ongoing po ang validation at, sabi ko nga po, ang makakasagot po niyan iyong intelligence service namin at ang director po namin, sir. So—

**[03:27:26.010] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
hanggang ngayon po, wala pa kayong personal knowledge?

**[03:27:28.390] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In so far as the cybercrime division is concerned back then, ongoing po ang validation. Yes or

**[03:27:33.730] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
no po, ngayon po, ngayon po, Sir. Mahal naming saksi, ngayon po.

**[03:27:37.200] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kung ako tatanungin, wala pa po akong idea pero baka meron ang intelligence service o ang director po naman. Atty. Loto,

**[03:27:43.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer the question directly. It's answered by yes or no, and I think you know the answer.

**[03:27:50.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ako personally wala pa po, sir. Yun lang po. Maraming salamat po. Mahalo sa aksi. Thank you, sir.

**[03:27:55.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Sen. Judge Padilla. Chair declares a 15-minute recess. We shall resume at 5.38. At exactly 5.38. Trial is on short recess.

**[03:44:54.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, you are still testifying and you will be on redirect by counsel for the prosecutors. You are going to testify still under the same oath?

**[03:45:04.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:45:05.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That you took yesterday. Chair notes that the witness understands that he is under the same oath. Counsel for the prosecutors, Atty. Ligutan, you may proceed with your redirect if you have any.

**[03:45:17.500] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Thank you so much, Your Honor, please. Again, good afternoon, Atty. Lotoc.

**[03:45:23.160] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Atty. Lotoc, the defense showed you a video where President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. mentioned that he is open to reconciliation with the Dutertes, correct?

**[03:45:42.840] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[03:45:44.080] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
And if you know, when did that event—the interview—happen?

**[03:45:51.280] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In your investigation,

**[03:46:02.470] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Atty. Lotoc, you mentioned during the recs that you considered the statements of the president. Do you remember that? Yes, sir. And do you also remember that you considered A video of the president giving his statement.

**[03:46:24.740] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection leading.

**[03:46:26.220] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, these are preliminary

**[03:46:27.760] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
questions. This is just based on his direct examination. This is already

**[03:46:31.240] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
redirect, Your Honor.

**[03:46:32.720] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
I know. Preliminary question is allowed. Reform Council. Okay, now.

**[03:46:40.510] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
You mentioned in your direct examination of a video where the president gave his reaction. Atty.

**[03:46:53.840] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
to the threats of the President?

**[03:46:55.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[03:46:56.620] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Now, if shown a copy of the video, will you be able to identify the same?

**[03:47:02.950] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[03:47:03.710] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Now, Your Honor, I move that the same video, marked as Exhibit P-Roman Numeral IV-13, be played for consideration of the witness and the Court.

**[03:47:22.500] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So directed.

**[03:47:26.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Is it in a USB? Is that in the USB? Yes,

**[03:47:29.380] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor.

**[03:47:29.800] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So you will again have to break the seal?

**[03:47:32.280] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:47:35.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Mr. Witness, kindly break the seal.

**[03:47:41.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[03:47:42.100] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
In front of the assisting counsels for both the prosecutor and the respondent.

**[03:47:57.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel, do you know the time stamp?

**[03:48:02.540] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
We will be showing only the first half of the video, Your Honor.

**[03:48:07.300] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
It's not too lengthy, Your Honor, please.

**[03:49:39.840] President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.**  
Nakakabahala ang mga pahayag na narinig natin nitong mga nakaraang araw. Nandiyan ang walang pakundangang pagmumura at ang pagbabanta ng planong ipapatay ang ilan sa atin. Kung ganun na lang kadali ang pagplano sa pagpatay ng isang Presidente, papaano pa kaya ang mga pangkaraniwan na mamamayan? Yang ganyang kriminal na pagtatangka ay hindi dapat pinapalampas. Yan ay aking papalagan.

**[03:50:07.930] President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.**  
As a democratic country we need to uphold the rule of law.

**[03:50:14.850] President Ferdinand R. Marcos Jr.**  
Ako, bilang pinuno ng executive department, at lahat ng mga nanunungkulan sa pamahalaan, ay may sinumpaang tungkulin na tutupdin at pangangalagaan ang Konstitusyon at ang ating mga batas. Kaya hindi tama ang pagpigil sa mga halal ng bayan sa paghahanap ng katotohanan. Hindi na sana hahantong sa ganitong drama kung sasagutin lamang ang mga lehitimong katanungan sa Senado at sa House of Representatives.

**[03:50:47.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The tech is instructed to kindly pause and cease the playing of the video.

**[03:50:54.200] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
May I proceed, Your Honor?

**[03:50:55.520] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, sir.

**[03:50:56.400] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Atty. Lotoc, again, when did the press conference, the online press conference of the vice president happen where she uttered that she already contracted a person to kill the president, for example? Objection,

**[03:51:10.040] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor. It's misleading, Your Honor. Why? She never mentioned that there was a contract to begin with.

**[03:51:19.180] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Reform Council.

**[03:51:23.110] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Where, if I may, Your Honor, where the Vice President stated that she already contracted a person to kill the President?

**[03:51:31.910] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. The Vice President never said the word contracted.

**[03:51:36.570] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
November 23,

**[03:51:39.690] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2024, sir.

**[03:51:40.970] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Now, November 23, 2024. Now, if you know, if you know, when did the President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. issue That statement through the video that was shown

**[03:51:54.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
a while ago. If I'm not mistaken, I think November 24 or 25. Of what year? 2024,

**[03:52:03.210] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
sir. So one or two days after the threats were made, correct? Yes, sir.

**[03:52:08.020] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay, now. You also mentioned earlier, in fact, I remember that, that instead of denying the threat, Objection, your honor. Wait, wait, I'm not yet done.

**[03:52:20.470] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection on the

**[03:52:21.110] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
use of the word threat, your honor. Kindly let him finish his

**[03:52:24.370] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
question, counsel.

**[03:52:29.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel for the prosecutor, finish your question. Yes, your honor,

**[03:52:31.170] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
yes, your honor. The question now is, you said that instead of denying her statement that she already spoke to a person to kill the president and the two others, you said that the vice president did not deny that. Do you remember that?

**[03:52:51.020] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your

**[03:52:51.440] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Honor, leading. Your Honor, that's just the basis, Your Honor. I mean, in fact...

**[03:52:54.880] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Witness may answer.

**[03:52:56.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor, based on the video dated November 26, 2024. A video dated what? November 26, 2024, Your Honor. Your

**[03:53:07.160] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Honor, at this juncture, we move that that video be presented again, but this time with a limited timestamp, Your Honor, please. And for the record, the same is marked as Exhibit P-4...

**[03:53:20.460] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
It is sealed. I move that the defense may also observe the

**[03:53:32.100] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
unsealing of such document. Let

**[03:53:36.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
the witness be the one to unseal it in full view of councils for both parties. Thereafter, take as instructed to kindly play. The time stamp to be identified by the counsel for the prosecutors. And

**[03:53:50.360] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
the time stamp is 10 minutes to 40 seconds to 11 minutes 50 seconds.

**[03:53:59.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
For the record, assisting counsel for the prosecutor accompanied by assisting counsel for the respondent are

**[03:54:14.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
bringing the USB to the tech booth to be played.

**[03:55:10.270] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
And then I was asked during a press briefing.

**[03:55:15.050] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
By a

**[03:55:16.170] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
media person, if I know of these plans, if you can say the word, if that is the correct word to use here, plans. So I answered, I was asked, Romanov, and then I answered, I was told by two people, this is the first time I've heard of Romanov, so that is the third already, and I said, don't worry about my security.

**[03:55:43.870] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
If they kill me, if I die, kapag pinatay ako or kapag namatay ako, in the context of don't worry about my security. So this means, pinatay ka. Diba? Kasi hindi ka naman mamamatay by heart attack in relation to your security. Diba? So, pag namatay ako, I already asked a person to take revenge.

**[03:56:17.040] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
against three individuals.

**[03:56:23.060] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Pause now. Mr. Witness, when did this event where the Vice President uttered those statements happen?

**[03:56:34.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor, November 26, 2024. That is three days after she uttered in that November 23 press conference that she already spoke to a person, and the person said yes.

**[03:56:47.070] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Yes, the President and the two others. Now, Mr. Witness, what is your impression, if any, as to the emotional state of the vice president when she confirmed that, in fact, she uttered those threats?

**[03:57:08.370] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. The witness is incompetent to answer.

**[03:57:10.710] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, I invoke Rule 130, Section 53 of the Rules of Courts. If I may read. Opinion of ordinary witnesses. General rule not allowed. But I think if we read the exception to order, it says the witness may testify, however, on his impressions of the emotion, behavior, condition, or appearance of a person. Section 53, Rule 130. The question I just posed, as to his impression, as to the emotional state of the vice president when she uttered those confirmation threats. It's in the rules, Your Honor. Comment,

**[03:57:54.780] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor. Comment. Your Honor, the rules provide that the person should be sufficiently acquainted, Your Honor. Oh, no. And that is not the case here, so such rule does not apply. Your

**[03:58:04.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Honor. Overruled. Witness may answer if he

**[03:58:06.600] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
if you know. Atty. Lotoc, kindly answer if you know.

**[03:58:08.640] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
kindly answer if you know.

**[03:58:10.080] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Yes, Your Honor. What is the emotional state of the vice president three days after November 23 when she confirmed that she uttered those statements?

**[03:58:20.930] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor, when we tried to connect that in the November 23, 2024 event and the November 26, 2024 utterances, it shows that the vice president did not joke

**[03:58:37.330] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
when she uttered those statements.

**[03:58:42.840] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
At the same time, iyong pagiging furious niya at iyong pagiging fuming mad noong November 23, dala pa niya hanggang doon sa November 26, kasi ni-reiterate po niya, Your Honor, at in-admit po niya na meron siyang kinausap na tao to take revenge.

**[03:58:58.800] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
So she admitted again, three days after?

**[03:59:01.880] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered.

**[03:59:04.340] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
All right. Let me proceed, Your Honor, please.

**[03:59:08.190] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Mr. Witness, earlier it was pointed out by the defense that now that line where the vice president said that she spoke to a person and the person said yes to kill the president and the two others, that was just in response. To a question by a certain Princess Maui. Do

**[03:59:29.220] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
you remember that? These

**[03:59:30.080] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
are just preliminary questions. This

**[03:59:33.140] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
is the purpose of redirect. Let's

**[03:59:35.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
move on. Let's move on, Councils. We all know what we're talking about here. Witness may answer.

**[03:59:41.920] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Did you consider that statement, that fact that it was only in response to Princess Maui's statement? If any, if at all.

**[03:59:51.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Objection leading.

**[03:59:54.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Witness may answer.

**[03:59:56.970] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, I don't think so, Your Honor.

**[04:00:00.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung nature ng Atty. Frances, may kinausap na ako ma'am, wag kang mag-alala. So ibig sabihin, even before the questions was asked, may kinausap na ako ang vice-presidente base doon sa Atty. Frances niya.

**[04:00:14.200] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Again, what is the significance, if any, and if you know, and if at all, that fact to your investigation?

**[04:00:23.730] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, it's very much significant because

**[04:00:28.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
We were able to determine the risk intent on the part of the vice president. The vice president is determined and so far as that statement is concerned.

**[04:00:41.780] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
At the same time, the utterances were not the product of a temporary fit of anger or spur of the moment. In other words,

**[04:00:58.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
the threat was real, was serious, Your Honor.

**[04:01:01.920] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
You remember during cross-examination yesterday, the good counsel for the defense presented you with a diagram, using their props, that the NBI is under the DOJ. Remember that?

**[04:01:20.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:01:20.500] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
And that the DOJ is under the—

**[04:01:24.400] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Now, the NPS under the DOJ and the DOJ is under the President, correct? Yes, sir. In fact, you were asked point-blank whether the President, if they refer to the President as BBM, I would like to refer to our President as President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. You were asked if he intervened. Do you remember that?

**[04:01:44.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:01:46.900] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Did he, in fact, intervene—the President—in your investigation?

**[04:01:51.200] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. Leading.

**[04:01:58.000] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
If you know, the witness may answer.

**[04:01:59.320] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Not at all, sir.

**[04:02:01.670] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
What would you say that not at all?

**[04:02:05.520] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, wala hong dumating sa akin na any information or any direction or any directive even from the director na nakipag-communicate ang presidente sa NBI during that time na nag-iimbestiga kami.

**[04:02:19.640] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
If you know, what is the basis of your findings? In filing the cases for grave threats and inciting to the sedition against the Vice President, if you know. I'm not sure what

**[04:02:32.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
is the...

**[04:02:32.540] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Basis of your findings. Objection,

**[04:02:34.980] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Vague?

**[04:02:37.120] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Objection, there's an objection.

**[04:02:39.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Basis of the findings? Well, as I have explained that, Your Honor, there were several factors that we considered before we come up with a conclusion. Yung una nga,

**[04:02:53.040] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
iyong manner of delivery, or the manner in which the utterances were spoken; and then the literal meaning of the statement—in-explain ko na rin ho iyan; and then the nature of the instruction na relentless: 'Huwag kang tumigil hangga't hindi mo mapapatay sila.'

**[04:03:14.270] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
As well as the relationship between the parties involved, meaning the Vice President and the President, Your Honor.

**[04:03:19.470] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Thank you so much. Now, earlier,

**[04:03:21.710] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
The counsel for the defense, in their argument that it was merely an exercise of the freedom of expression of the Vice President when she uttered that, said that the Vice President is an ordinary citizen. Do you remember that? Objection, leading. I think

**[04:03:43.650] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
so, Your Honor. Your

**[04:03:44.150] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Honor, again, this is the purpose of the Directs.

**[04:03:48.050] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:03:49.260] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Do you agree with that? That the Vice President is an ordinary individual?

**[04:03:53.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Definitely not, Your Honor. The Vice President is the second highest official of the land, sir.

**[04:03:58.280] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay. Now, let's proceed.

**[04:04:02.980] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Mr. Witness, yesterday, the defense devoted more than two hours in pointing, for example, number one, an alleged discrepancy in the subpoena.

**[04:04:22.320] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay. Dated November 6, 2024. And according to the defense, the NBI supposedly started its investigation on November 23. But there was already a subpoena dated November 6. Do you remember that?

**[04:04:41.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:04:42.240] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Mr. Witness, how do you characterize this error, if

**[04:04:47.130] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
at all? Typo, sir. Typographical error, sir.

**[04:04:50.510] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Typographical. Para maintindihan ng ating mga kababayan.

**[04:04:53.800] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Atty. Lotoc, ano ba ibig sabihin, kung alam mo, ng isang

**[04:05:01.110] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
typographical error?

**[04:05:03.190] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, basically, hindi ito substantial insofar as the document is concerned. Ito ho iyong may, for instance, maling spelling o nagkamali lang ng date. Then, pag makita mo naman doon sa surrounding circumstances, ito naman ang tinutukoy na date.

**[04:05:21.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Gaya ng mga case numbers.

**[04:05:26.270] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Case numbers. Now, what effect, if any, did this typographical error have on the statement of the vice president threatening the president and the two others? What's the effect, if any, of

**[04:05:43.290] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
these errors? They don't have any effect at all insofar as the findings of the NBI is concerned. Why

**[04:05:50.090] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
is that?

**[04:05:51.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, because those typographical errors does not alter the fact that the video exists. It does not alter the fact that the Vice President uttered those statements. And it does not alter the fact that the findings of the NBI is that the Vice President committed the crime of great threats and inciting to sedition. Okay, now.

**[04:06:17.210] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
The defense also mentioned that there is a lack of signature of Atty. Ria Asuncion on one of the several minutes of the interview, this time with a certain Jason Rubrico of SM&I. How do you characterize that error again, if you know? Typo error. What

**[04:06:38.550] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
effect, if any, does that typo error have on the statements? At the vice president threatening the president and the two

**[04:06:48.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
others. Again, sir, hindi ho nabago yung utterances ng vice presidente. Hindi rin ho nabago yung video. Hindi rin ho nabago yung findings namin na indeed kumpleto yung mga ebidensya at ang presidente ay nag-commit ng crime of great threats and inciting to sedition.

**[04:07:05.250] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay, third point. What about the alleged discrepancy in docket numbers? How do you characterize

**[04:07:13.060] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
that error? Objection, Your Honor. The witness already testified during cross-examination that he was not privy to the assignment of docket numbers as that is the function of the DOJ. So he won't be in court. Atty.

**[04:07:28.730] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your Honor, I do remember. Despite that, counsel asked several questions after that, and the witness was able to answer those questions.

**[04:07:36.330] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Your Honor, he mentioned that he does not have personal knowledge.

**[04:07:42.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Counsel, if he gives a different answer, then you can address that in your recross. Witness may answer.

**[04:07:52.970] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
This discrepancy in the docket numbers, how do you characterize this error?

**[04:07:58.450] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor—

**[04:07:59.600] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. He won't be competent to answer that because docket numbers are assigned by the DOJ, not by the NBI.

**[04:08:05.310] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
that's the point. Again, counsel, let him answer. If he answers that he's not competent, then that's his answer. Witness may answer.

**[04:08:13.130] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, kung docket number lang ho ang pag-uusapan, hindi ho nawala yung existence ng video.

**[04:08:23.430] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi rin ho nabago na ang Vice President ay nagsalita na meron na siyang kinausap na tao.

**[04:08:25.830] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
your answer is not responsive though. Kindly answer the question of the council.

**[04:08:30.810] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay, how do you characterize that error? Typographical error. Okay, next question. What effect, if any, does that typographical error have on the statements of the Vice President threatening the President Ferdinand Marcos Jr., His Excellency, and the two others?

**[04:08:48.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No effect at all, Your Honor. Hindi ko na-alter yung utterances ng Vice Presidente. Okay, now,

**[04:08:53.700] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
let's go to the affidavits of investigation which the Good Counsel mentioned in yesterday's cross-examination. During your cross-examination, you were asked questions concerning the January 30, 2025 affidavit of investigation. After that, affidavit was admitted. Now, the question is, what action, if any, Did the Department of Justice take, and if

**[04:09:22.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
you know? The Department of Justice evaluated the referral by the NBI. And then after evaluation, nag-issue po sila ng certification na kulang pa, insufficient yung inyong sinubmit. So dapat i-comply niya muna itong mga requirements na to. So nagbigay po sila ng, I think seven po ang nandoon. Yung po ang ginawa ng Department of Justice.

**[04:09:47.860] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Alright. Now, what did the NBI do, if any, in response to that recommendation from the DOJ? The

**[04:09:54.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
NBI complied the requirements of the Department of Justice. And as a matter of fact, nung na-comply na ho namin, the DOJ issued a certification stating to the effect You have complied all the elements of the crime charge and you are now good for preliminary investigation, sir. In

**[04:10:17.680] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
fact, you also remember yesterday that you mentioned that the NBI also submitted a letter to DOJ. Do you remember that?

**[04:10:23.820] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:10:24.200] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Why did the NBI submit a letter to the DOJ, if you know?

**[04:10:31.120] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, I think that letter was signed by the then Director Jaime Lee Santiago. And the then Director was notifying the Department of Justice that the NBI has already complied with all the requirements and that the NBI is now submitting its affidavit with all the requirements attached therein and with explanation specifically yung requirement na kailangan may complaint ang recipient gaya ng Presidente. Ang explanation doon sa letter na yon na for purposes of preliminary investigation under the new NPS rules, hindi ko kailangan yung complainant himself, kundi pwede ang law enforcement agency kaya ng NBI na mag-file na complaint. Again, for purposes of preliminary investigation.

**[04:11:25.740] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Atty. Lotoc, if shown a copy of that letter of former Director Santiago, will you be able to identify the same? Yes, sir. Now, we are now in the process through Atty. Steven Magallon of Saligalo, showing you a copy of a letter dated February 11, 2025. We invite the defense to also peruse the same. Yes, sir. Also, assisted by a lawyer also from Cebu. What relation, if any, does this document have with the one you mentioned?

**[04:11:55.190] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
The same docs that I mentioned, sir.

**[04:11:57.070] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Your honors, at this juncture we move that the letter dated February 11, 2025 by Director Santiago identified by the witness where the NBI informed the DOJ that it already complied with all the requirements. Be marked as exhibit P-Roman numeral 4-34 for the prosecution.

**[04:12:18.620] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
This is not yet premarked, counsel. Not

**[04:12:20.740] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
yet premarked. Introduced in response to the cross-examination by the defense.

**[04:12:25.940] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Comment from the counsel for respondent.

**[04:12:30.740] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We do not object. No comment.

**[04:12:33.360] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
do not object, Your Honor. Just a photocopy, Your Honor. The comment is that the document is a photocopy. That's what

**[04:12:40.100] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
I was

**[04:12:40.480] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
waiting for.

**[04:12:41.880] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Counsel may proceed.

**[04:12:43.320] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Right on cue, we have a certified true copy of the same. We invite the defense.

**[04:12:50.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Assisting counsel for the respondent, kindly confirm.

**[04:13:18.820] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
May we have a stipulation from the defense?

**[04:13:25.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Is the photocopy a faithful reproduction of the original or certified true copy presented by the assisting counsel for the prosecutor?

**[04:13:38.390] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
For the record, Your Honor, it's a photocopy.

**[04:13:41.530] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Is it a certified true copy, counsel?

**[04:13:44.860] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
It is a certified true copy.

**[04:13:47.420] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Compared with a photocopy, so we are moving for a stipulation that the photocopy is a faithful reproduction of the certified true copy of the same document.

**[04:13:57.340] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Same manifestation, Your Honor.

**[04:13:59.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted.

**[04:13:59.920] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
All right. Now, Mr. Witness, which part of the attached letter did the NBI explain that no law requires the offended party to execute a complaint to conduct preliminary investigation for grave threats?

**[04:14:13.850] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think... First page, the last paragraph, which says: It is to be emphasized that under the 2024 New Rules on Preliminary Investigation and Inquest Proceedings, a law enforcement agency like the NBI can file a complaint for the purpose of preliminary investigation unless the crime to be filed falls under Section 5, Rule 110 of the Rules of Criminal Procedure.

**[04:14:47.150] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay. Thank you so much. May proceed, Your Honor?

**[04:14:51.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, Counsel.

**[04:14:52.240] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Mr. Witness, you were asked whether the NBI already identified the particular individual contracted by the President, sorry, by the respondent, the Vice President, to kill the President and the two others. Okay? Do you remember that? Yes, sir. Now, to clarify, for the record, what investigation, if any, did your own? Your own NBI Cybercrime Division conducts on this matter, if any, if you know. Again, again, sir. Okay. You were asked whether the NBI already identified the particular individual contracted by the respondent to kill the president and the two others. And you said you remember

**[04:15:39.170] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
that. Objection, Your Honor, on the use of the word contracted. We never said contracted.

**[04:15:43.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Reform Council.

**[04:15:45.920] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
The Vice President already spoke to a person to kill the President and that person said, yes, so that's a contract. Now, do you remember that? Yes, sir.

**[04:15:56.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, it's a conclusion of law made by the Council for the Prosecution. Witness

**[04:16:01.560] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
may answer. Alright, now, to clarify, sorry, this is now the question, Atty. Lotoc, to clarify for the record, what investigation? Did your own NBI Cybercrime Division conduct on the identity of this person that said yes to the order of the Vice President to kill the President and two others?

**[04:16:29.730] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Again, the reason why we sent a letter dated December 2, 2024 to the Vice President is for that purpose. We informed the Vice President that we are also investigating the alleged threats against her life.

**[04:16:50.430] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Unfortunately, hindi siya nag-appear. So wala ho kaming makitang validated information. Then aside nun, we also issued a subpoena to the media personalities who were present during those press conference and who have personal knowledge na nangyari yung event na yon. And in fact, tinanong po namin din sila isa-isa. Kilala niyo ba yung kinausap ng vicepresidente? May idea ba kayo kung sino yung tao na yon? At bawat isa sa mga nasabihin na ho namin at nag-appear, sinabi nila na hindi ho namin kilala. Wala po kaming alam, Your Honor. And then, nung chineck namin yung open source, nung nagkanta kami ng open source investigation, kasi yun nga, sinasabi ko kanina, Your Honor, Tinitrace namin yung sinabi ni Princess Maui na Romanov ang nakita lang namin doon yung statement ni Mayor Baste noong January 2024 Tinindan din namin kung relevant ba yung pag-aalis ng 75 PNP personnel from the BPSPG at inilipat sa Manila para doon sa Peace and Security i-augment yata sila Atty.

**[04:18:09.220] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Sidder din ho namin yon, pero wala ho kaming na-validate na information relative to the threat against the life of the Vice President. But ganun pa man, Your Honor, I know for a fact na yung aming intelligence service ay continue hong nagmamonitor at nagahanap kung sino yung tao na yan. Baka ho sila ang pwedeng sumagot o yung aming director, Your Honor.

**[04:18:32.620] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay. Thank you, Atty. Lotoc. Let's move to another point now. In your investigation, Atty. Lotoc, what significance, if any, did the NBI give to respondent's own admission that she already spoke to a person to kill the president and the two others? What significance, if any?

**[04:18:59.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, mabigat ho iyon kasi lumalabas na hindi lang ho siya nag-joke noong ni-reiterate niya iyon.

**[04:19:10.130] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ibig sabihin, may intention doon ang vice-presidente, base doon sa mga utterances na iyon, pinag-isipan niya yan. In fact, I can classify it as—

**[04:19:23.150] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. The answer is already based on his own interpretation. May we move, Your Honor, that it be stricken from the record?

**[04:19:29.630] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Whose interpretation should he be answering? Witness will please complete his answer, and then the Chair will consider the objection of counsel for respondent.

**[04:19:40.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes po, Your Honor. Yun nga sinasabi ko, it was contemplated, sir.

**[04:19:47.350] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay. Now, Atty. Lotoc—

**[04:19:49.530] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
move to strike it off the record considering that he included conclusions of law in his answer.

**[04:19:56.470] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
I mean, you have been asking questions on the basis of law and we did not complain. Now I'm asking question to him as a lawyer. Counsel, please,

**[04:20:05.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
motion is denied. Let it remain in the record for whatever purpose it may serve. Let the senator judges give it its due weight according to their discretion. Witness, rather counsel may proceed. Thank you so much.

**[04:20:17.640] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Mr. Witness, you were also asked about the NBI's alleged lack of coordination with certain government agencies such as the PNP, the Armed Forces of the Philippines, and the National Security Council in its investigation of the threats to the President and the two others. Do you remember being asked that?

**[04:20:38.200] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. It was not covered by my cross-examination. It was a query from one of the Senator-Judges.

**[04:20:45.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
In the discretion of the court, the counsel can ask questions not covered by the cross-examination. We'll allow it.

**[04:20:53.480] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Now, could you explain to the court how is this so, if you can?

**[04:20:59.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In so far as communication with other agencies, the cybercrime division back then, nakafocus ko kami sa investigation aspect. Now, pagdating doon sa security ng...

**[04:21:13.560] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
highest officials. Again, for a fact, I know na may ginagawa yung aming intelligence service and so for us, communicating with other relevant agencies gaya ng AFP, PNP, PCO, and even National Security Council. Yun nga lang, yun sa amin, Your Honor, nakafocus kami dun sa investigation. Ngayon, kung may binababaho ang director, base sa mga informasyong nakalap niya from different agency, mag-i-instruct po siya sa amin.

**[04:21:43.660] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Alright. Now, let me proceed. Mr. Lotok, you were asked during cross-examination about the investigation that you conducted on the alleged threats to the life of the Vice President. You were asked whether there was an affidavit of investigation report on such investigation that you conducted. And you answered there was none. Correct? You remember having said that there is no affidavit of investigation? For the Vice President? For the Vice President. Yes, sir. And you said that there was an investigation but there is no affidavit of investigation. The question now is, so whatever happened, what happened to that investigation?

**[04:22:23.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor, since wala ho kaming ma-establish na validated information, hindi ho gaya dito nung sa Presidente na may apparent commission of crime, dito ho kasi wala kami mapagsimulan.

**[04:22:39.950] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi kami pwedeng mag-produce ng Affidavit of Investigation, if that's the case. Ang ginawa namin, although nagaantay kami ng validated information at nangangalap kami, continue na nagmo-monitor yung aming intelligence service. I know that for a fact kasi yun yung trabaho nila.

**[04:23:02.110] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Siguro ho, pag sila ang tinanong natin, baka meron silang masabi kung ano yung nangyari dyan, ano yung update niyan, maging ho ang aming director.

**[04:23:10.950] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Alright now, but Mr. Witness, you were also confronted with the fact that a certain Princess Maui mentioned in that press conference a certain Operation Romanov that allegedly Is a security threat to the Vice President. Do you remember that? Yes, sir. Now, what did you do, if any, on this information?

**[04:23:36.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, security threat. Ang nakita naming relevant dyan, yun nga po, yung pag-aalis ng 75 personnel sa BPSPG, then nilipat dun sa Manila. Then aside from that, basi ho kasi sa... Record ng COA, meron pa rin

**[04:23:58.780] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
pa ring 335, more or less, na naiwan na security personnel ng Vice President. At ang narinig ko yata kay Honorable—iyong sa comment noong Ombudsman na ba siya noon o Secretary of Justice siya—na iyong number na iyan ay mas malaki pa sa bilang ng security personnel ng Presidente.

**[04:24:21.120] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
I'm referring, Mr. Witness, to Operation Romanov.

**[04:24:24.950] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Bacquel Okay, what did you do, if any, on that information offered by Princess Mau, information on Operation Romanov?

**[04:24:33.790] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection? Asked and answered. That was his answer in the previous question. Alright, alright,

**[04:24:39.390] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
alright. Now, what

**[04:24:42.820] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
else? What else did you do, if any, in relation to the investigation, your investigation on the security threat to the Vice President?

**[04:24:53.660] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Paulit-ulit kong sinasabi, yung open source, we trace, ang ano yung mga relasyon nung security threats. Yung Romanov na yan, uulitin ko, narinig namin yan first time sa bibig ni Mayor Baste during my Easter rally in January 2024. And so far, and so far as the NBA is concerned, during that time, nung ako yung jepe, Wala ho kaming na-establish na validated information vis-a-vis yung threat to life against the vice president, sir.

**[04:25:31.310] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay, now, you also mentioned that you issued a subpoena to the Vice President and a letter asking her to shed light on the threats she said she was facing. You remember having mentioned that?

**[04:25:46.900] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:25:47.430] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay now, again, what was the response? At the vice president to the NBI's official investigation to her to appear before it to shed light on the threats she was complaining about.

**[04:26:04.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor.

**[04:26:05.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What is it, counsel?

**[04:26:08.940] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
That is misleading, your honor, because the subpoena was for her to answer.

**[04:26:15.920] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I think he mentioned letter, counsel. I heard letter, if I'm not mistaken.

**[04:26:20.500] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Let's focus on that letter, if you may.

**[04:26:23.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, I think that was the December 2, 2024 letter, if I'm not mistaken. And then nag-reply ho sila ng letter. At sinabi po doon ng lawyers na the Vice President is confident that the NBI will also investigate. The alleged threat against her life. Yun po

**[04:26:43.980] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
yung terror

**[04:26:44.840] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
nung letter na yun sir.

**[04:26:46.200] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Mr. Witness, you also mentioned that since the Vice President did not heed the letter you issued, you were not able to elicit information from her. You remember having said that, correct?

**[04:26:57.550] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:26:58.120] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
However, on the part of the threats to the life of the President and the two others, you did not need to interview them personally to proceed with the investigation. Remember having said that? Yes, sir. Now, the question now is for clarification before our honorable senator judges, what's the difference? Why the difference between the two?

**[04:27:18.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Ulitin Kapo, Your Honor, insofar as the threat against the life of the Vice President, we have not established a validated information that remains to be allegation. Insofar as the threat based on the utterances against the President, the First Lady, and the former Speaker of the House. That was apparent. Nasa video, narinig ho namin. Therefore, based sa aming jurisdiction, which is primary jurisdiction, kaya ho kami nag-imbestiga kaagad doon.

**[04:27:51.340] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay, three more points, Your Honor, before the prosecution winds up its redirect. Now, it was also raised during the discussion during cross-examination. That the vice president was merely exercising her freedom of speech and she was not committing a crime of inciting to sedition. Do you remember being confronted with that issue? Yes, sir. Now, you tell the honorable court what is your response to that issue, if any?

**[04:28:21.420] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, your honor. It will call for his opinion.

**[04:28:23.900] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Exactly. He's a lawyer.

**[04:28:27.700] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Opinion, Your Honor. He's not an expert on the matter. He's a lawyer.

**[04:28:31.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Witness may answer if he knows.

**[04:28:33.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, I've already said, Your Honor, to reiterate, if the second highest official of the land uttered openly and in public that she had already contracted a person to kill the President, the First Lady, the former Speaker of the House, and she instructed that person to be relentless in killing them, and that person said, yes, we failed to see any amount.

**[04:29:06.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2. Should we allow that kind of argument, should we allow that to become the norms of our society, then nobody would prevent from anyone from doing the same. Imagine the chaos, the disorder and the anarchy, Your Honor. 3. As a lawyer and being in the law enforcement, freedom of speech protects lawful expression. But it does not protect utterances that satisfies the elements of a criminal offense like this one, Your Honor.

**[04:29:44.960] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
A criminal offense like this one. Now, as a lawyer, Atty. Lotoc, when the Vice President uttered in public that she already spoke to a person to kill the President, the First Lady, and the two others—

**[04:30:06.440] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
As a lawyer, did the Vice President betray public trust?

**[04:30:12.480] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. That will call for a conclusion of law already. And as a lawyer, it will call also for his personal opinion.

**[04:30:20.500] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
The Council will propound the questions on also issues of law felony versus crime. What is the penalty? I'm also asking the same line of questions, Your Honor. What is sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander, Your Honor.

**[04:30:35.760] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
A similar question was asked by the Council for the respondent and the witness may answer if he knows. If he knows.

**[04:30:42.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor, as a lawyer.

**[04:30:46.010] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
She betrayed public

**[04:30:47.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
trust. Yes, Your Honor. Last question.

**[04:30:50.150] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Atty. Lotoc,

**[04:30:58.540] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
As a matter of law,

**[04:31:02.310] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
if the President, President Ferdinand Marcos Jr. is killed, God forbid, who assumes the presidency?

**[04:31:15.140] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Objection, Your Honor. The Vice President. Speculative. Ashkahn answered. The Vice President.

**[04:31:20.240] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
No more redirect, Your Honor.

**[04:31:23.060] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Before recognizing counsel for respondent for recross, the Chair would like to recognize Senate President Gatchalian for his interjection. You may proceed, sir, and you have two minutes.

**[04:31:35.100] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Atty. Lotoc, napakinggan ko kanina iyong isang sagot ninyo at sinabi ninyo dito just this afternoon:

**[04:31:47.240] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Yes, we do believe that the Vice President had contracted.

**[04:31:54.260] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Naputo lang siya but obviously contracted someone to...

**[04:31:57.900] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
commit a crime or to kill the President and the others. Kahapon, narinig ko na ipinapasa nyo sa investigative division ng inyong or intelligence service ng inyong ahensya itong tanong na ito. So, ano ba? Meron bang nakontratang papatay o walang nakontratang papatay?

**[04:32:27.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:32:28.180] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Dahil this morning lang sinabi niyo, you believe na merong nakontrata?

**[04:32:33.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Basi ho doon sa utterances, we believe the Vice President na hindi ho siya nagbibiro nung sinabi niya yun. So ang standpoint namin, meron na ho siyang kinausap na tao.

**[04:32:45.790] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Anong ebidensya na meron kayo o meron ka o meron yung Cybercrime Division na made you believe na merong nakontrata?

**[04:32:58.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Una, Your Honor, kung iyong pagbabasihan po namin is iyong November 23 na may kinausap siya, puwede hong sabihin na nag-joke lang siya doon kahit galit na galit siya or etc. But then, noong na-incorporate po natin iyong November 26, ni-reiterate pa niya at sinabi niya doon openly and in public na totoo, may kinausap na siya to take revenge if she dies. Our belief is that the Vice President talked to someone.

**[04:33:32.280] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Now, insofar as kung sino iyong kinausap na iyon, and insofar as iyong existence ng tao na iyon, ang makakasagot po noon, Your Honor, since trabaho nila iyon, iyong aming intelligence service po o kaya iyong aming director.

**[04:33:46.180] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
So your

**[04:33:46.240] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
belief came from the statements of

**[04:33:50.120] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Vice President Sara?

**[04:33:51.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. No

**[04:33:51.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
more. Statements and admission, sir.

**[04:33:55.460] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
So doon lang nanggaling? Wala nang iba?

**[04:33:58.960] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In so far as the Cybercrime Division, Your Honor, yes.

**[04:34:01.960] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Okay. And then, meron din siyang reply. Sinabi niyo nga kanina, nagpadala kayo ng letter.

**[04:34:10.780] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Dated... December

**[04:34:12.770] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2, Your Honor. December

**[04:34:13.870] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
2. And may reply rin si VP na dine-deny niya na merong grave threat. So pag dine-deny niya na ginawa niya ang grave threat, obviously, dine-deny niya na may...

**[04:34:26.570] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
So, bakit pa rin ninyo i-file or re-recommend na mag-file ng grave threat in inciting to sedition kung may denial na?

**[04:34:36.660] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi ho, Your Honor. Ang na-establish po namin doon iyong elements of the crime of grave threats. So, noong nakita namin na na-satisfy at na-comply iyon, noong na-refer po namin ito sa Department of Justice—

**[04:34:52.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Nag-concur sa amin ang Department of Justice na indeed na-comply namin, and therefore tuloy iyong proseso ng preliminary investigation.

**[04:34:59.710] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
But what made

**[04:35:00.250] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
you not... Bakit hindi ninyo tinanggap itong paliwanag ni VP Sara sa kanyang letter? Dahil kaagad dito sa letter niya may denial na ginawa niya yung grave threat and therefore wala rin na kontrata kasi magkadugtong yun.

**[04:35:18.050] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, Your Honor... Mere denial would not discount the fact na na-atter niya yon at may kinausap na siyang mga tao. Yun nga ang problema dun kaya namin siya gustong makausap personally para makapag tanong pa kami ng other questions para makita namin totoo ba tong kinontrata ng vicepresidente o kinausap o hindi. Kaya lang yung honor wala ho doon hindi ho siya nag-appear. Yung kanyang sagot is Justine

**[04:35:49.370] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
mere denial lang, walang mga basehan, even circumstantial na basehan. So hindi ho namin siya sinama sa factor in considering whether or not a crime of grave threat has been committed by the Vice President.

**[04:36:08.130] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
With your permission, Mr. Presiding Officer, just one last question.

**[04:36:11.400] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Nakita niyo ba kung merong capability si Vice President Sara? Definitely,

**[04:36:15.780] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
definitely po.

**[04:36:16.820] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Ano ang nakita niyong mga ebedensya kung meron siyang capability gawin yung kanyang sinabing pagbanta at yung kanyang gagawin?

**[04:36:25.560] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, for one, she is the Vice President of the Republic of the Philippines. And number two, hindi

**[04:36:36.080] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
naman porket Vice President ka, may capability ka gumawa nun. Yes,

**[04:36:41.320] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor. Not necessarily. But alam naman po natin yung background. Naging presidente ang— Hindi

**[04:36:47.140] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
ka naman porket Senate President. May capability ka gumawa nun.

**[04:36:50.480] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. So

**[04:36:52.120] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
anong-anong ebidensya na meron kayong nakita na kaya niyang gawin nun?

**[04:36:56.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Alam naman po natin yung background na yung tatay niya na dating presidente ay hinaharap ngayon yung kaso sa ICC dahil sa mga extrajudicial killings, etc.

**[04:37:08.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So, tinignan namin yon na indeed being in that situation, may capability ho aside from the fact na vice-presidente siya.

**[04:37:16.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[04:37:20.450] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Ejercito, thereafter, Senator Judge Ontiveros for their interjections. You may proceed, sir, when you're ready.

**[04:37:29.610] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Atty. Lotoc, given that the Vice President repeated her alleged threats, as presented kanina, sabi ninyo twice or thrice sa mga videos?

**[04:37:41.550] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:37:43.290] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Did you consider her persistent in making the threat or in going through with the threat? Because these two are different.

**[04:37:54.030] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. I think iyong in-explain ko po, iyan iyong nature of instruction. Kasi iyong nature of instruction niya, sabi niya doon, 'Pag namatay ako, huwag kang tumigil hangga't hindi mo mapapatay sila.'

**[04:38:10.700] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
So there, that's indicative of persistence, na determined din po ang Vice President na gawin iyon at pursigido siya doon sa kaniyang mga utterances, kasi maliwanag po sa instruction na, 'Hangga't hindi mo sila mapapatay, huwag kang titigil.'

**[04:38:30.000] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
So, hindi ba ito tinatawag na persistent lamang doon sa threat kung may mangyari sa kanya? If something happens to her, di ba? Parang yan yung nasa... Yes,

**[04:38:41.040] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor.

**[04:38:42.880] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Does the heat of the moment still matter here? Kasi maaaring dahilan sa bugso ng galit o sa takot nung gabing yun nang nangyari dahil sa sitwasyon na nandun po sila sa batasan.

**[04:38:59.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor, pwede pong mag-matter yan kung yan lang ho ang pinagbasihan namin yung November 23. 2024. Kaya lang, kaya nga ng explanation

**[04:39:08.470] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
explanation ko, kinonsider namin yung mga previous statements na may patterns, may consistencies, yung October 18, 2024, as well as after ng November

**[04:39:20.310] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
November 23, which is November 26, 2024. So marami ho ang mga factor na kinonsider namin bago kami nag-conclude na indeed. May violation ang vice-presidente.

**[04:39:33.550] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Dahil doon po sa Atty. Lotocdo sa Israel vs. People, GR No. 265736, dated November 19, 2025, sinabi ng Korte Suprema na sa pagtukoy kung may mens rea o kriminal na intensyon, kinakailangan ding umiral ang pagpupursige or persistence. Yes, sir. Kung

**[04:39:53.770] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
walang ganitong pagpupursige, walang krimeng grave threats. Yes, sir. Gaya ng mga bantang binitiwan lamang sa tindi ng galit o bugso ng damdamin o bilang biro at hindi naman sinunda ng anumang kilos o karagdagang pagbabanda.

**[04:40:11.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. Insofar as persistence is concerned, nakita po natin yan noong November 23 utterances. At at the same time, persistence in the sense na aside doon sa November 23, inadmit po niya at nireiterate niya yun.

**[04:40:26.960] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In the November 26, 2024 statement.

**[04:40:29.800] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Dahil meron po sa Article 282, yung threats without persistence are not considered grave. Yes, sir. So, in conclusion, Sir President Officer, sa inyong palagay, ano-anong ginawa ng Vice Presidente ang may tuturing na pagpupursige o persistence sa kanyang mga banda? Well,

**[04:40:49.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, October 18, sinabi na niya doon na I imagine myself cutting his head, na gusto kong tanggalin yung ulo niya ba. In fact, may instance doon na sinabi niya na, pag di kayo tumigil, uhukayin ko yung tatay niyo, itatapon ko sa West Philippine Sea. Meron ganun noong October 18. And then pagdating dito sa November 23,

**[04:41:19.930] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
She was hurling profanities and invectives habang galit na galit siya at sinasabi niya this country will go to hell dahil yung tao na yan na nakaupo hindi marunong maging presidente. Wala akong kinukonsider na mas mataas sakin. At the same time, he was lying through his teeth para lang makuha yung boto ng mga tao. And then yung nung kinausap niya na papatay sa tatlo. At the same time, ginugtong ho namin yung November 26. Inulit pa ho niya yun aside na persistence na yung nature ng kanyang utterances. Inulit pa ho niya nung November 26 openly and in public na indeed may kinausap siya to take revenge. Na kung mamatay siya, patayin niyo yung tatlo.

**[04:42:09.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
That's... much persistence, kung i-establish po natin iyong persistence, Your Honor.

**[04:42:17.080] Sen. Joseph Victor “JV” Ejercito**  
Maraming salamat, Atty. Lotoc. That's all. No further questions, Mr. Presiding Officer. Thank you, Sen. Judge Ejercito.

**[04:42:23.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sen. Judge Ontiveros, you may proceed, ma'am, when you're ready. You have 10 minutes.

**[04:42:31.180] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Salamat, Mr. Presiding Officer. Mr. Witness.

**[04:42:34.640] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor.

**[04:42:36.020] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Nabanggit niyo kay Sen. Judge Ejercito, hindi ngayon lang, kanina, iyong admission against interest.

**[04:42:45.560] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Sabi niyo po ang mga pahayag ng vicepresidente ay maituturing na admissions against interest. Tama po?

**[04:42:54.200] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, ma'am.

**[04:42:55.690] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
May diferensya po ba sa pagtrato sa pahayag ng isang tao kung pabor sa kanya o against sa interest niya ang admission?

**[04:43:07.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think so, ma'am. Kasi base dito sa issue natin, Ang vice-presidente is abogada. Alam na po niya yun na the moment she uttered those kind of statements, pwede ho siyang mag-fall in any criminal violation. So pagdating ho nung November 26, instead of avoiding mentioning those utterances, instead of denying that she made those utterances, ang sinabi po niya, nire-iterate niya. Yes, sinabi ko yan na someone has to take revenge. Kung sakaling mangyari ito, mamatay ako.

**[04:43:56.510] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yun po, Your Honor, ang nakita namin.

**[04:44:00.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Kaya ako nasabi na admission against interest po yun.

**[04:44:04.060] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So kung sa halip na i-reiterate niya, i-deny niya yung naunang sinabi, kung sinabi niya na Hindi ko talaga minimin yan or may sinabi siyang maituturing na pabor sa kanya. Iba po yung pagtrato nyo sa ganyang klaseng pahayag sana.

**[04:44:27.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Baka maging iba, Your Honor. Okay.

**[04:44:33.290] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So ano po yung diferensya at saka halaga dun sa bigat na binibigay ng batas dun sa admission against interest?

**[04:44:45.830] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, pinapakita ko rito, in the natural order of things, hindi ho ia-admit ng isang tao yung isang bagay na ikakasira niya o na ikakaharap niya sa isang paglilites, something like that. Kapag ho inadmit ng isang tao yung isang bagay na ikakasira niya, maliwanag na ginawa niya yun, sinabi niya yun, at determinado siya.

**[04:45:13.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
sa mga pangyayaring iyon o pursigido siya sa mga pangyayaring iyon.

**[04:45:17.970] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So, masasabi po bang mabigat o napakabigat ang halaga na ibinibigay sa ilalim ng batas sa isang admission against interest?

**[04:45:32.660] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes. Yes, Your Honor, Apo.

**[04:45:34.330] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Panghuli na lang po, Mr. Witness. Bakit nga po pinaparusahan ng batas ang grave threats kahit Pa hindi na tuloy sa physical act?

**[04:45:47.420] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, Your Honor, for purposes of peace and order among the populace, pag hindi ho in-address yung speeches o yung utterances na magka-qualify as grave threat, magkakagulo ho yung mga tao. Pwede na lang ho sabihin kahit na sino na papatayin kita pag ito nangyari. Gagawin ko ito sa'yo pag ito nangyari. So I think the wisdom of the law is to avoid the disorder, the anarchy, and the chaos that it would create, Your Honor.

**[04:46:28.750] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So yung sinasabi niyong wisdom of the law ay hindi lamang sitahin o Pwede po yun yung

**[04:46:36.760] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
isang bagay na tumuloy sa physical act kundi mag-serve ng deterrent? Para gawin

**[04:46:43.580] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
ngayon ng

**[04:46:44.500] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
taong iyon o ng ibang tao

**[04:46:46.260] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
yung grave threats? Pwede po yun, Your Honor. To serve as a deterrent, Your Honor.

**[04:46:51.180] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
So may preventive na value din nakikita kayo?

**[04:46:55.220] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes po, Your Honor.

**[04:46:56.220] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Bukod sa curative?

**[04:46:57.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, Your Honor.

**[04:46:59.020] Sen. Risa Hontiveros**  
Salamat po, Mr. Witness. Salamat po, Presiding Officer.

**[04:47:01.930] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator Judge Antiveros. Senator Judge Rafi Tulfo, thereafter, Senator Judge Alan Cayetano, before the recross of counsel for respondent, if any. Senator Judge Tulfo, you may proceed and you have two minutes.

**[04:47:13.250] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer. Mr. Witness, aware ba kayo at one point in time, I just don't remember what date was it, na pinulled out yung certain numbers of security personnel ni BP Sara?

**[04:47:28.950] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Based on the news, may nakita po kami nun.

**[04:47:31.650] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
When was that? When did that happen?

**[04:47:36.120] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
2024 yata, yung 75 PNP personnel from BPSPG, Sir.

**[04:47:41.180] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Was that before the utterance of PPSPG sa Prescon or after?

**[04:47:45.740] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Before, Sir. Before? I think that's before, Sir.

**[04:47:49.220] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
So would it be possible na because of that, nakapag-isip siya na mayroon threat against her life?

**[04:47:56.690] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
iyong security niya being pulled out, and walang binigay na reason kung bakit. Kaya maaaring iniisip niya na, well, medyo, sabi nga, sakali na praning—

**[04:48:07.330] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Very much possible, sir. Opo.

**[04:48:10.430] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
But hindi ninyo ba inimbestigahan bakit na-pull out iyong security details niya?

**[04:48:15.230] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
May nakita kami doon sa November 26 na video. Nalimutan ko lang iyong timestamp niya. May sinasabi siyang issue sa security niya. Doon nga sa BPSPG, parang from military attached unit, ginawang under na ng Presidential Security Command. I'm not familiar with that.

**[04:48:45.660] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Sino pong nag-cause ng pull out? Sino pong nag-utos? Saan galing yung utos?

**[04:48:53.000] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Atty. Dico Hu, siya masyado. Pero I think part ng reorganization, Your Honor, ng PSG if I'm not mistaken.

**[04:48:59.400] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Part ng reorganization. So, ilan po yung napulo? 75?

**[04:49:05.080] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Hindi ko

**[04:49:06.020] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
pa alam kung yan yun. Ang sinasabi ko po, Your Honor, yung dating BPSPG is under ng attached unit ng Armed Forces of the Philippines, kung di ako nagkakamali. And then, inilagay na siya sa ilalim ng…

**[04:49:20.210] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Presidential Security Command. Yun po yung sinabi ng Vice Presidente during November 26 na security threat dahil doon sa event na yon. Yun po yung tinignan namin. Tinignan din namin yan. Pati nga yung 75 personnel. Kaya lang again, hindi po siya sufficient na mag-establish ng apparent violation of any criminal offense. Kasi nga, para siyang normal na function ng

**[04:49:46.770] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
agencies and departments. Yeah, Mr. Huertas, yung sa akin na kasi yung pag-pull out ba ng security, was it sudden? Did it, I mean, ano yung naging dahilan? At kanino galing yung order para i-pull out yung ilang numbers of security details niya, particularly PNP? And then sabi nyo nga, yung sa PSG, nabawasan din ba? Base sa inyong investigation, bakit nga po nangyari yun?

**[04:50:15.490] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Agencies and Departments Anong nag-trigger noon?

**[04:50:17.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Opo, iyong sa 75, ang naalala ko po sa news, parang inilipat ho sila, Your Honor, sa Manila kasi merong issue na kailangan nilang i-augment dahil may peace-and-order issue sa Manila. So iyon ang nakita kong nasa news na ginawa ng PNP, o reason ng PNP.

**[04:50:39.050] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
ng PNP bakit mayroong ganoong pullout. Then, noong nakita ho namin ilan na lang iyong natira sa Vice President, noong chineck ho namin iyong news, iyong per record ng COA, if I'm not mistaken, meron pa siyang 335 na security personnel.

**[04:50:56.980] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Ah, so marami pang naiwan?

**[04:50:58.840] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes po, Your Honor. In fact, kung hindi ako nagkakamali, narinig ko po iyong sinabi ni Honorable Boying Remulla na

**[04:51:08.060] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yung bilang na yan, mas marami pa doon sa bilang ng mga security personnel ng Presidente. So

**[04:51:14.080] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
nakita ko namin na hindi sa sufficient para maging valid basis ng investigation. Hindi ko katulad dito sa threat against the president na apparent po yung utterances na nangyayari.

**[04:51:30.620] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Okay, dalawang katulungan na lamang, Mr. Witness. So base sa inyong investigasyon at karanasan, Ilan ba dapat ang security detail ng isang vice president?

**[04:51:40.290] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Sorry po, Your Honor. Wala po akong idea kung ilan po dapat. Last

**[04:51:44.990] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
na lamang. So nung na-pull out yung ilan sa mga security personnel niya, sabi niyo nga 75, right? PNP and then meron pa ating sa PSG. Nagreklamo ba siya?

**[04:51:57.180] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Sa inyong pagkakaalam?

**[04:51:59.660] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Doon sa November 26, Your Honor, I think ang isa sa

**[04:52:03.220] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
issue niya na may threat sa security is yung paglipat ng BBSPG. From attached unit ng AFP na maging under siya ng Presidential Security Command. Yun po yung narinig namin. Pero yun dito sa 75 personnel, insofar as I'm concerned, wala akong nakita sa reports, sa news, sa social media na nagreklamo siya na nawala yung 75. Pero baka malihaw ako, baka mayroon akong hindi nakita. Pero insofar as I'm concerned, Wala akong nakita sa news na nagreklamo siya doon sa 75 transfer ng PNP personnel from BPSPG dinala doon sa Manila, Your Honor.

**[04:52:44.220] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
At hindi na siya nag-request ng augmentation o dagdag doon sa mga nawala na security detail?

**[04:52:50.180] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Mukhang hindi na po, Your Honor. Wala akong kaming nalaman kung may nirequest ba siyang dagdag.

**[04:52:55.620] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
So is it possible na dahil doon sa pag-pull out ng security details, nasabi ko na kanina, tonight, tanong ko na again one more time, na...

**[04:53:03.960] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Yun yun probably ang tinitingnan na reasons ng mga sumusuporta sa kanya, siya or anybody sa circle niya na eto na siguro yun.

**[04:53:15.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Tama po kayo, Your Honor.

**[04:53:17.230] Sen. Raffy T. Tulfo**  
Thank you.

**[04:53:18.610] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Alan Caetano, you have two minutes, sir. You may proceed when you're ready.

**[04:53:23.280] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Sir, Presiding Officer, Dear Colleagues, susundahan ko lang po yung kay Sen. Riza, Sen. Judge Riza, Sen. Judge J.V. at yung ibang nagtanong sa admission against interest. You stated this already but just for the record, you viewed the whole video, right? The whole 2-hour video.

**[04:53:39.780] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
The November 23, sir. Yes. Yeah, isang beses, sir.

**[04:53:44.940] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Isang bes lang?

**[04:53:45.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:53:46.380] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Okay. And how many times there has the vice president made admissions against her interest?

**[04:53:56.690] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir. Ang tinutukoy ko pong admissions against interest doon sa November 26, sir.

**[04:54:02.250] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
No. Sabi mo yung November 23 din na ayaw ng defense gamitin contracted. So yung kinausap is also an admission against her interest, di ba?

**[04:54:13.040] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Di, Sir. Ang sinasabi ko po ang admissions against interest, yung November 26 video po, Sir.

**[04:54:17.580] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Na sinasabi niyang totoo yun at hindi niya sinasabi? Yes, Sir. Okay.

**[04:54:21.240] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
So, doon sa November 23, may nakita ka doon na admissions against interest?

**[04:54:31.470] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In so far as I'm concerned, na nireiterate niya. Hindi,

**[04:54:39.430] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
not nireiterate. Siguro para malinaw. In your mind, as a lawyer or as an NBI agent, what is an admission against interest?

**[04:54:47.580] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Iyon nga po iyong in-explain ko kanina. Ito po iyong isang bagay na ginawa ng isang tao—hindi ginawa, sinabi. Kasi it's an admission. Sinabi ng isang tao na ikakasira niya.

**[04:55:03.360] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
But then, instead of denying na sinabi niya yun, In-admit pa niya ito o nire-iterate niya? Okay.

**[04:55:10.040] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Very clear yan. And you and Agent John Mark Kalilong said that the basis of the investigation was the November 23 video. The basis sa inyong affidavit of investigation sa nag-file ng kaso is certain portions of the November 23 video.

**[04:55:30.220] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
As well

**[04:55:30.600] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
as other evidence. Okay. Sa November 23, ilan ang admission niya against interest?

**[04:55:43.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang sinasabi ko pong admission against interest yung

**[04:55:48.510] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
November 26. This is a new question. If you evaluated well the November 23 video,

**[04:55:59.850] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Is there any circumstance in that video that you believe that the Vice President made admissions against her interest?

**[04:56:08.850] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Plain ho yung utterance niya doon, Your Honor. Yung nakita lang namin yung utterances niya. Insofar as I'm concerned, yung admission against interest nangyayari nung November 26.

**[04:56:19.850] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Mr. Witness, sagutin ninyo na lang ako. Lahat ng admissions are utterances?

**[04:56:25.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:56:26.090] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Okay? Admissions is verbal. Di ba? Hindi ito yung parang admission sa court. Pwede mo i-admit yung documentary evidence, pwede yung object evidence, pwede yung statements. When we talk about admissions against interest, especially in context of what we're talking about, may statement na laban sa interest niya.

**[04:56:44.890] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:56:45.570] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
So tinatanong ko dun sa buong video, meron ka bang nakita? Wala. Yes or no lang yun. Meron or wala? O meron at wala, hindi yes or no?

**[04:56:55.220] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Kayo nag-evaluate nun eh. Meron o wala? Admissions against her interest?

**[04:57:03.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir. The fact na inuttered niya yun. Oh,

**[04:57:06.380] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
which one nga? So, meron ilan at ano yun? A little bit leeway, Mr. Presiding Officer, kasi hindi natukoy masyado yung tanong.

**[04:57:15.140] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senators, judge, may proceed.

**[04:57:18.150] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
So, which statement that? That one you're mentioning now. So, yung sagot mo, meron.

**[04:57:22.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang understanding ko, sir, nung sinabi ko yan, I'm referring to the November 26, 2024.

**[04:57:27.750] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Mr. Witness, paulit-ulit tayo.

**[04:57:29.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:57:30.150] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Burahin mo na yung pinag-uusapan natin you're referring to. I'm asking you a direct question.

**[04:57:35.150] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[04:57:35.670] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Sa November 23, meron o wala bang statements that you would consider, in your professional opinion as a lawyer and as an NBI agent in charge of investigating this, admissions against interest?

**[04:57:52.490] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang tinutukoy ko lang po again, Your Honor, yung 23.

**[04:57:54.850] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Wala po yung 23. I'm sorry. I don't care, Mr. Presiding Officer, kung anong tinutukoy mo. I'm asking you a direct question. November 23, video. Meron o wala siyang admissions against your interest doon?

**[04:58:10.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Lotoc, yes, no, I do not know, I do not remember. We're referring to November 23, not 26.

**[04:58:18.860] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yeah, I do not know, sir. Ang nare-refer ko na...

**[04:58:23.560] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Don't tell me na. So you do not know. Okay. When she said, kung papatayin ako, may kausap na ako, patayin niyo yung tatlo, is that an admission against interest? Yes or no?

**[04:58:38.010] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Based on that utterances, sir, yes. I think so.

**[04:58:40.470] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Yes. O, kakasabi mo lang kanina, 'I don't know.' Ngayon, yes. O ano pa? Ano pa sa video na iyon na admission against interest? Meron o wala? Or, 'I don't know'?

**[04:58:49.550] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Iyong utterances na iyon, sir. Sir—

**[04:58:52.010] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
bukod nga dun.

**[04:58:54.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
To me, sir, yung utterances na yun, that's admission against interest?

**[04:58:58.500] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Sir, klaro na yun. Tinanong ka na ng presiding officer, sagot mo, I don't know. Tinanong kita ng diretsyo, nasa video, biglang you know, biglang sasabihin mo na yun, utterance na yun. So ang tanong ko na ngayon, bukod dun, aside from that.

**[04:59:12.670] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Sir, ulitin ko po yung sagot ko. No,

**[04:59:15.490] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
you don't need to answer.

**[04:59:16.890] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
No, I'm asking you, aside from the utterance, the statement, na kung papatayin nila ako, patayin sila. Is there any other utterance during in that video that you would consider admission against interest? In so far as I

**[04:59:31.790] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
remember, wala na po yun.

**[04:59:33.050] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Wala na. Okay. When the vice president said, yung pinamigay sa DepEd, isn't that an admission against our interest kung may pinamigay?

**[04:59:45.030] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Siya po yung namigay, sir.

**[04:59:47.130] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Ikaw ang nanood ng video. Ikaw ang nag-evaluate. Ako pa magsasabi sa'yo kung ano laman ng video? Akala ko ba tinignan niyo ng mabuti yung video? Bakit hindi mo alam yung laman ng video?

**[04:59:58.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
E. D. S. W. Sir, pwede ko pong tingnan yung sinasabi n

**[05:00:02.640] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
'yo? So you do not know what the alaman ng video?

**[05:00:05.600] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, tinignan ko po ang video one time. Ang nag-review po ng video, yung agent on case.

**[05:00:10.660] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Yes, but you're the agent in charge. And you're the one who filed the affidavit. Okay, next question. Nung sinabing mag-people power, tapos ang sinabi niya hindi yun yung solusyon. Kung nag-people power, sino magiging presidente? Kung nag-people power at mawawala ang Pangulong Marcos, sino magiging presidente?

**[05:00:30.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Siya, sir. So

**[05:00:31.860] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
hindi ba admission against her interest din? Siguro sa interest niya maging presidente. Pero ang sinabi niya, wag.

**[05:00:38.650] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I think so, sir.

**[05:00:40.050] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Okay. So I mentioned three. So my next question. When you have an admission against interest, do you take the whole admission or you can cut it up into parts?

**[05:00:53.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor, iyong— If

**[05:00:55.170] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
my admission against interest is one sentence or one paragraph or three sentences, can you take one sentence and say yun lang yung admission and the two other sentences are not? I think

**[05:01:07.190] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
it should be the whole, sir.

**[05:01:08.170] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
The whole sentence. So the whole sentence niya, nung sinabi niyang kung papatayin ako, is pinagbibintangan niya yung tatlo na papatayin siya. So if you say it's an admission against interest and you believe it, you also have to believe na papatayin siya nung tatlo. The same thing, if you're going to say na namudmud siya sa DepEd, ang sinabi niya galing sa First Lady yung pera. So you're also going to have to believe that. So if you're going to believe her, na yung ibang sinabi ay seditious, eh ngayon sinabi nga niya hindi solusyon ng people power. So as the evaluator, Bakit hindi consistent yung evaluation niyo nung video?

**[05:01:47.100] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, I think insofar as people power is concerned, I think sinabi niya yata na, yes ma'am, natutuwa ako dun sa ginagawa niyo. Hindi.

**[05:01:56.420] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Pwede ko pong ulitin. Let the

**[05:01:58.560] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
record speak for itself. It's on page 26. Same paragraph nung sinabi niya ang papatayan. But having said that, last question.

**[05:02:09.640] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Bakit sa cybercrime ni-refer? Bakit hindi sa anti-terrorism or sinabi mo meron intel group? Bakit sa cyber crime?

**[05:02:18.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, may cyber aspect po kasi yung violation.

**[05:02:21.810] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Okay. What are the aspects of the alleged threat? One is the cyber crime grave threat. The other one is a possible assassination threat, right?

**[05:02:33.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, Your Honor. Yung sinasabi kong may cyber aspect, the utterance was made through...

**[05:02:39.160] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Through cyber. And the utterance... In accordance with you, constitute grade threat.

**[05:02:45.160] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
Yes, sir.

**[05:02:45.780] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
But if she meant it, and if it is true, and if it is accurate, it's also an assassination plot, isn't it?

**[05:02:53.220] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Kung totoo yung utterance niya, napapapatay kita, may kausap na ako, hindi ba assassination plot yun?

**[05:02:58.800] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Maybe, sir. Yes.

**[05:02:59.800] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Hindi maybe. NBI kayo, kayo nag-ano eh. May nagsabi sa presidente, papatayin kita. How much plain can that be as an assassination plot?

**[05:03:08.440] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
That's why, sir, may validation process.

**[05:03:10.040] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
That's why

**[05:03:10.460] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
may validation. Kaya yung tanong ko. Ano ba mas mabigat? Yung assassination plot o yung cyber aspect?

**[05:03:16.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, Your Honor. No,

**[05:03:18.030] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
no. Diretso ang tanong. Hindi no, no, no. Anong mas mabigat? It's a

**[05:03:21.390] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
direct question. If you were NBI director now or whatever, you were PNP chief, dalawang iniimbestigahan mo, yung cyber aspect na pwedeng cyber libel, pwedeng grave threat, at yung assassination plot, ano mas mabigat sa dalawa? Ano yung pra-prioritize mo?

**[05:03:36.290] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, yung cyber aspect, based on the law, mag-a-add siya ng one degree higher.

**[05:03:42.770] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
So, magde-debate tayo kung anong higher: papabayaan mong mapatay ang Presidente?

**[05:03:48.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
winding up.

**[05:03:49.890] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
The point I want to make, Mr. President, is whether I was the PSC, the Executive Secretary, NBI, or an ordinary citizen, my first concern is wag mapatay ang presidente.

**[05:04:00.330] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[05:04:01.150] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
But instead of the NBI director taking it upon himself, giving it to the anti-terrorists or to the intelligence, sa cybercrime binigay.

**[05:04:08.590] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, again, uulitin ko, yung utterances was made through information and communication technology. Kaya may jurisdiction also.

**[05:04:16.110] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
I hope if

**[05:04:16.810] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
anyone of my colleagues here become president, magbago yung attitude ng NBI. Mas importante pala cyber kaso sa buhay ng presidente. Not necessarily, Your Honor. Thank

**[05:04:25.990] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
you, Mr. President.

**[05:04:27.190] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Noted. Council correspondent is recognized for his recross, if any.

**[05:04:32.330] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Just a few points, Your Honor.

**[05:04:34.110] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You may proceed, sir, when you're ready.

**[05:04:36.680] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, during your testimony, you mentioned that an unsigned document is a mere scrap of paper.

**[05:04:45.860] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Yes, Your Honor. But you also said on redirect that the lack of signature is a typographical error.

**[05:04:55.380] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No. Yung typographical error, based sa tanong sa akin kanina ng abogado, yung misspelling, yung mali yung...

**[05:05:06.810] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Docket number, kung mali man iyon.

**[05:05:13.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yun, Your Honor.

**[05:05:14.720] Atty. Amando Virgil D. Ligutan**  
Okay.

**[05:05:16.790] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, you mentioned on redirect also about the November 26, 2024 presscon, correct?

**[05:05:25.240] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, Your Honor. Yes, sir.

**[05:05:28.320] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So after that presscon, did you interview VP Sara?

**[05:05:33.070] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir.

**[05:05:34.820] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
And despite not having interviewed her, You made findings on her mental state.

**[05:05:44.380] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No? Findings ng mental state, sir? What do you mean by that?

**[05:05:48.980] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
My question is, despite not having the chance to interview VP Sara, nevertheless, you included in your investigation or findings about her mental state.

**[05:06:01.400] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Based on the series of events, Your Honor, as I have said, State of mind can be shown through the overt acts, Your Honor. Okay.

**[05:06:10.230] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, you were also asked about persistence, correct?

**[05:06:14.130] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[05:06:14.470] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Now, the subject video was on November 23, 2024, correct? Yes, sir. But to demonstrate persistence, you referred to a presscon on October 18, 2024.

**[05:06:30.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
No, sir. To demonstrate persistence, yung nature ng atirances niya, Ulitin ko siya, in-explain ko muna, the nature of the instruction was persistent because of the fact na ang sabi niya, wag kang tumigil hanggat hindi mo sila mapapatay. And then, i-reiterate niya ito noong November 26. Now, as to consistency patterns at persistence pagdating sa galit niya sa presidente, yung October 18 may kinalaman kasi ang unang sinabi niya doon,

**[05:07:02.620] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Valang. Kinukonsider akong number one. Hanggang number two lang yung Pilipinas na to. Then pangalawa, I imagine myself cutting his head.

**[05:07:14.340] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Then kinumpara namin siya nung November 23. Already satisfied with

**[05:07:18.720] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
the answer.

**[05:07:19.880] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Consistent po yung...

**[05:07:22.580] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What was that, counsel, for responding?

**[05:07:24.840] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We are already satisfied. No need to

**[05:07:26.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
elaborate. I think already answered. Yes.

**[05:07:28.920] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Alright. Last two questions. So you said that the February 14, 2025 DOJ certification found your investigation or the case that you filed sufficient?

**[05:07:44.920] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Based on the certification, the DOJ stated that you have complied all the elements of the crime charge. So

**[05:07:52.100] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
this DOJ evaluation, does this amount to a final verdict?

**[05:08:00.390] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Ang maliwanag hudon for purposes of preliminary investigation. Wala akong sinabing na final verdict.

**[05:08:09.360] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, you also mentioned the concept of open-source investigation. Does this include internet browsing?

**[05:08:17.750] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[05:08:18.770] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So you Google search? Kasama ba iyon?

**[05:08:22.250] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Yes, sir.

**[05:08:24.410] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Google search mga news articles, websites, videos, correct? Yes, sir. Including mga YouTube videos? Yes, sir. Alright. I'll show you a short video and I'll ask one final question.

**[05:08:39.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Kindly show the video, Tek.

**[05:08:54.170] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Worry ko lang is yung mga anak ko dahil hindi talaga yan sila sanay na wala ako. Nasanay kasi sila, lumaki kasi sila na

**[05:09:06.260] Vice President Sara Zimmerman Duterte**  
Katabi ko iyan sila sa tulog. Iyan iyong worry ko, iyong aking mga anak. Dahil nawalan sila ng nanay, iyan iyong hindi ko kasi magawa remotely, iyong pagiging nanay. Pero iyong trabaho dito at trabaho diyan sa Pilipinas, kung saan man ako, magawa ko siya remotely.

**[05:09:33.050] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
So, in the course of your open-source investigation, did you encounter this video?

**[05:09:39.950] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Hindi ko po na-encounter yan, Sir.

**[05:09:41.510] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
Nothing further, Your Honors.

**[05:09:44.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Before we let go of the witness, the Presiding Officer just has a few points. Number one, to clarify, Atty. Lotoc, sa pagtatanong po ni Senate President Wengat Shalan kanina, sabi niyo po, maliban sa mga salitang binanggit o sinambit na ikalawang Pangulo na may nakausap na siya na gagawa nung kanyang kautosang patayin, diyo mo no, ang tatlong opisyal ng bansa,

**[05:10:08.550] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
wala po kayong hawak na ibang ebidensyang may kinausap na nga siya.

**[05:10:13.360] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In so far as the cybercrime division is concerned, sir, opo.

**[05:10:17.480] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Pangalawa po, sabi ninyo po, sa ilang katanungang ipinukol sa inyo, na hindi ninyo alam kung totoo o hindi ang ilang mga sinabi ng Ikalawang Pangulo sa video na napanood po ninyo nang isang beses, iyong mahigit dalawang oras. Sa kabuuan po, ang kaya ninyo lang pong sabihin ay sinabi niya iyon. Pero kung totoo man iyon o hindi, wala po kayo sa lugar para sabihin na totoo nga ba lahat ng mga sinabi niya?

**[05:10:45.160] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Well, una, since Vice President siya, at base doon sa circumstance na galit na galit siya at nagbabato siya ng mga pagmumura, we believe na totoo iyong mga sinasabi niya, Your Honor.

**[05:10:56.400] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And, as an advisement perhaps to the Senator-Judges and the public as well, an admission against interest as mentioned in the Rules is nothing really special. An admission against interest under the Rules is simply an exception to the hearsay rule. Where a person is about to die or is unavailable to testify, his statements against his or her interest may be admitted, testified to by another person—not the way we seem to be giving admission against interest na parang umamin na dahil labag sa interest niya iyon. The Rules are specific, and the purpose also is specific: it is an exception to the hearsay rule. If there are no other points or questions to be raised by any of the Senator-Judges—

**[05:11:50.900] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator-Judge Padilla is recognized for his intervention.

**[05:11:55.320] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Puwede po bang magtanong ulit?

**[05:11:56.700] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You have two minutes, sir.

**[05:11:57.350] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Yes, of course, sir.

**[05:11:59.240] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Kanina po nabanggit kanina ng isang senador na meron pong dalawang kaso. Sa panahon ni Pangulong Rodrigo Roa Duterte na inimbestigahan niyo po, isang hundred fifty million, tsaka ano po yung isa? Ang naalala ko, Your Honor, kay MAS yata. Hindi

**[05:12:15.120] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
ako may hawak noon, Your Honor, hindi ako ang Cybercrime Division. I think ibang unit ang nanghuli, although ang Cybercrime

**[05:12:26.400] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Division yata yung nag-file. Pero hindi ako may hawak noon.

**[05:12:28.940] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Hindi po panahon niyo. Pero ano po nangyari doon? Na-dismiss po ba yan? Ang alam ko na-dismiss yata, Sir. Nagsakuha din po ba sila ng masusing investigasyon? Hindi ko po masasagot. Hindi po ako nag-imbestiga, Your Honor. Wala po kayong nabalitaan kung gumawa din sila ng masusing investigasyon?

**[05:12:49.120] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Again, Your Honor, kung ibang unit po ang nagsagawa

**[05:12:53.540] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
noon, wala po akong personal knowledge. Opo, opo. Kasi po doon malinaw eh na mayroong involved na pera. Kasi alam niyo matagal din po ako nakulong. Tatlong taon din po ako sa kulungan. Marami po ako nakasama dyan ng mga hired killers.

**[05:13:10.800] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Katunayan, pati po hindi hired killers, nakasama ko din po dyan. Sila Tihanki. Katunayan, excuse po sa aking seatmate, madami po talaga. Pag-usapin po kasi ng pera, talagang may threat. Pero sa tingin po ba niyo yung... Ang mga nangyari noong November 23, birthday ko pa po yun.

**[05:13:37.680] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Sa tingin niyo po ba, walang involved na kahit anong pera dito? Walang kahit anong ano? Threat pa rin po ba yun sa palagay ninyo? Kasi ang hired killer, pera-pera po yan.

**[05:13:50.630] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Based on our findings, great threat, Your Honor, and inciting position.

**[05:13:56.830] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Meron po ba? Inciting? Okay. Maganda pong pag-usapan yan. Doon po ba, pagkatapos po ba nung November 23 na mga sinabi ng ating vicepresidente, meron po bang ginawa ang ating mga taong bayan para maging inciting for sedition? Nagbunga po ba ito?

**[05:14:17.400] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Your Honor, ulitin ko po yung sakot ko. In the case of people versus nabong, hindi ho necessary.

**[05:14:23.720] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Pakisagot na lang po kung yes or no. Kung meron po bang naganap na pag... Kilos ang mga tao.

**[05:14:31.380] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
In so far as yung Seditious Act, wala kaming nakita, sir.

**[05:14:37.060] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Wala po. Opo. Meron pa pong isang tanong. Doon po ba sa mga naganap na maraming protesta, merong trillion march, merong ano-anong march, nakita niyo po ba doon ng vice-presidente? Yes or no lang po?

**[05:14:54.090] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
Saan po ang protesta? Sa

**[05:14:55.570] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
lahat po ng protesta na ganap. Dilawan, Pinklawan, Duterte, ano man po. Wala akong personal knowledge, Sir. Yes or no lang po. Nakita niyo po ba doon si Vice Presidente? Nagsalita po ba siya? Nagbigay po ba siya ng panahon dyan sa mga yan?

**[05:15:12.000] Sen. Robinhood “Robin” Padilla**  
Insofar as I'm concerned, wala akong nakita, Sir. Wala akong nakita. Okay lang po. Maraming salamat po.

**[05:15:17.020] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Sen. Judge Padilla. Atty. Lotoc, you are excused and the court thanks you for your time and cooperation with this impeachment court. Thank

**[05:15:26.660] Atty. Jeremy C. Lotoc**  
you very much, Your Honor.

**[05:15:28.960] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
May I ask, good, that the Honorable Defensor is standing up. Tomorrow, the subpoena for Atty. Lopez is only for today and tomorrow. The subpoena thus far, yesterday rather, and today. The subpoena for Captain Belio is for... Ah, no subpoena, but she is scheduled to testify tomorrow. So what is your pleasure, Honorable Defensor?

**[05:15:58.650] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Your Honors, before we proceed any further, the prosecution respectfully requests for a five-minute recess. Just five minutes, Your Honor.

**[05:16:12.040] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
You can do your thing, Honorable Defensor, while I recognize Senator Judge... With the permission of Senator Judge Cayetano, of course.

**[05:16:20.160] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Can they

**[05:16:21.440] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
do their thing?

**[05:16:22.500] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
I was going to suggest that I have a question about tomorrow. Maybe the defense can do their huddle while I ask this question. The question naman is...

**[05:16:33.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Sen. Cayetano, Alan is recognized.

**[05:16:35.620] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Thank you Mr. Presiding Officer, Mr. Senate President. This is addressed actually to the Presiding Officer, Senate President, and our colleagues. So are we going to have the oral arguments tomorrow? Yes. So I think we all received the...

**[05:16:52.690] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Copies have been distributed.

**[05:16:54.590] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
The memoranda of

**[05:16:55.910] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
the parties have been

**[05:16:56.970] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
distributed. More or less it's 33 and 32 pages. So that's 60 pages. I'm beginning to study it today because I had to study about other matters tomorrow. So the second question is while we will have the oral arguments tomorrow, will we decide as a body tomorrow or we have a little bit more time to digest what was discussed tomorrow and then decide? We will

**[05:17:22.210] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
decide as a body tomorrow because my understanding is the parties will be needing time to analyze whatever data will be produced should the subpoenas be granted.

**[05:17:36.430] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
But that is for Article 2.

**[05:17:44.090] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
That is correct, Your Honor. That is for Article 2.

**[05:17:48.810] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Which we will start hearing in August, right?

**[05:17:52.280] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
As of now, it is the last one but as we had talked about earlier, the prosecutors can decide to bump it up depending on their strategy to present evidence.

**[05:18:02.500] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
So I'm not moving that we postpone the oral arguments tomorrow because I think we're ready to listen but I do want to make an intelligent decision and there are many many issues from the test of If it's definite, is it a fishing expedition, 20 years or you know so there's so many issues would it be possible that we also have our own huddle tomorrow before we decide just in case we're not I mean if everyone's ready to decide tomorrow who am I to stop the decision but I just don't want to make a mistake in deciding at medyo makapal tong

**[05:18:52.200] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Assuming we read it once tonight, maybe once tomorrow.

**[05:18:56.200] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The presiding officer yields to the senate president with respect to the calling of a caucus tomorrow and what time. Para siya magpakain hindi ako.

**[05:19:05.680] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Well, let me leave it to the Presiding Officer and Senate President. My proposal is after the oral arguments and after all the senator-judges have asked their questions, just so that we have one more night or one weekend to go through it. If we're not going to vote on it and we have a consensus, then no problem. And there's a precedent because we did this during the time of the late Senate President Enrile when it came to issues of utmost importance that could decide the impeachment-trial results one way or the other. But that does have implications in terms of precedent, especially itong pinag-uusapan natin, AMLA at saka BIR.

**[05:19:54.680] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
The Senate President is recognized to respond.

**[05:19:57.080] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
I share the same feeling with Senator-Judge Alan Cayetano. I started reading both memos and, indeed, it's quite lengthy and complicated, and we need to also consult our legal teams. So may I propose, Mr. Presiding Officer, to have a caucus tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. so that we can thoroughly discuss this?

**[05:20:24.558] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
After the oral arguments.

**[05:20:26.040] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Senate President, I really thank you that twice already during impeachment, without talking, we have the same wavelength. May I propose that if we have a caucus after the oral arguments, just so that we can—for all we know, maganda iyong discussion and we're enlightened by the prosecution and [unclear]. And, to be honest, I'll probably still be reading this at 10:00 a.m. If that is [unclear], we can have a caucus maybe after—

**[05:20:57.660] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
During the break. After the oral arguments, we'll pause for a break and have a caucus. We can call a longer break, Senator-Judge.

**[05:21:05.820] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Thank you, Senate President and Senator.

**[05:21:08.160] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Is the Honorable Defensor ready after his five-minute huddle?

**[05:21:11.600] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor, may I request the Court to recognize the counsel for the panel of prosecutors, Atty. Lorna Patajo Capunan, Your Honor.

**[05:21:22.340] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Kapunan, counsel for the prosecutors is recognized.

**[05:21:28.890] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
What do you have for us, ma'am?

**[05:21:37.810] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Magandang gabi po sa inyong lahat, Atty. Lorna Patau Capunan, counsel for the prosecutors under the control and supervision of the House Panel of Prosecutors.

**[05:21:50.290] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
If I may, Your Honors.

**[05:21:52.300] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Please proceed.

**[05:21:53.950] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
I can see Sen. Panfilo Lacson coming in, at narinig ko po iyong kaniyang interview noong sinabi po niya na baka magkaapo na tayo dito at magkaroon na ng national bird, eh hindi pa tapos ang impeachment trial.

**[05:22:05.770] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Baca magka-apu na tayo dito at magkaroon na ng national bird, eh

**[05:22:12.780] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
hindi pa tapos ang impeachment trial na ito. We have seen, we have seen.

**[05:22:22.170] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
This is... Mami

**[05:22:24.740] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
said national bird.

**[05:22:30.140] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Hindi po ba, Senator Lacson? Well, somebody who interviewed you said that you said that. It

**[05:22:36.500] Sen. Panfilo “Ping” M. Lacson**  
must be another... Senator Judge or another person. Talking about birds, okay. Please proceed, ma'am. I never talked about birds.

**[05:22:48.630] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Then definitely my information was hearsay.

**[05:22:55.650] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
In any event, in the last four trial days, we have had several hours of legal calisthenics, direct examination,

**[05:23:09.580] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Cross-examination and today we also had redirect and recross. A total of approximately eight hours a day and two witnesses. Today we are supposed to hear a subpoenaed witness, Atty. Zulaica Lopez. And after her, another witness, subpoenaed or Atty.

**[05:23:41.360] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
to appear here, Captain Belinda Bello. After hearing the two competent and credible witnesses, not expert witness, but through their credentials, showed that they were competent to testify on the matters that they were asked to authenticate. After evaluating...

**[05:24:11.400] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Belinda Bello

**[05:24:12.010] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Through these two witnesses, 19 documentary evidence from Agent Kalilong and 45 documentary evidence from our recent witness, Atty. Lotoc. And after the very clarificatory and probing questions of our senator judges, After evaluation and not only during this five-minute hurdle, it is the wisdom of the public prosecutors as expressed through this representation that we find it Totally unnecessary, redundant, and a surplusage to still present Atty. Zuleika Lopez and as well, Captain Belinda Bello. Let me just state for the record the reasons why. Had we been able to present Atty. Zuleika Lopez She would have proven three things. Or we would want to have proven three things. First, that she was personally present inside that detention center when the vice president uttered the video Exhibit P-4-10. When she uttered the statements that she had contracted. That she had already contracted a killer. And you have heard this already before. And so on. To

**[05:26:24.700] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
kill the President, the First Lady, and the Speaker of the House. That would have been the first offer of testimony: that she was personally present inside that detention center when the Vice President uttered those statements. Admitted already. Admitted by no less than Atty. Vinluan here, who, in his closing remarks or opening remarks, mentioned more than ten times that that press conference occurred, Atty. Zuleika Lopez and the Vice President were there, and that in that press conference or live broadcast, the Vice President did utter the statements we have heard time and again. Exhibit P-4-10. Although Atty. Vinluan says yes ten times—I counted just now—the admission there as to the utterance was made ten times.

**[05:27:35.720] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Atty. Vinluan did say that it is a matter of interpretation. He says that the Vice President did not act as Vice President when she made those utterances. He tried, attempted to give a humane picture

**[05:27:50.540] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
picture to the Vice President that she had reacted as mother, sister, brother? No. And that

**[05:28:03.450] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
that She was not reacting in her capacity as Vice President. But in that statement that Atty.

**[05:28:17.390] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Bin Luan mentioned, there was admission as to the utterances being made more than ten times, he said. Our interpretation is wrong, but again, that is left to the discretion of this court. So that was the first. The fact that there were utterances made in a press conference and that Atty. Zulweka was president. No need to present Atty. Lopez for this purpose. Secondly, our second purpose was that

**[05:28:58.390] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Atty. Zuleika Lopez was not only present but so were other media personnel. Present there, who heard the utterances of the Vice President. And lastly, we would have offered Atty. Zuleika Lopez to confirm the authenticity and the provenance of that video. Exhibit P-4-10. Totally... Unnecessary because why? Because the defense themselves used the very same video said exhibit in their defense when they showed Atty. Zuleika Lopez crying and allegedly complaining about

**[05:29:59.800] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
about... the violation of our human rights so by their own admission there is no question

**[05:30:05.140] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
There is no question about this video, so it is our contention, and we hereby manifest that, with these admissions on file. And thank—

**[05:30:19.610] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
thank thank you to the senator judges for the clarificatory questions propounded and uh i specifically like

**[05:30:30.750] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
To say thank you to Senator Vicente Sotto, for, in his brief statement by virtue of clarification, bringing us back to what this trial is all about. We are not a criminal court, and much time has been spent: is there grave threats? Is there inciting to sedition? All of this is relevant, but in the context of: by doing these grave threats and by inciting to sedition, does it make the Vice President a violator of the Constitution? Does it make her a violator of her solemn oath of office? Is this a high crime? Is this betrayal of public trust? That is what this impeachment is all about. It is not what Atty. Vinluan says. If it is grave threats, by all means, we admit: prisión correccional, six months to six years, and that's a fine of two thousand pesos. If it is sedition, the same. The MTC should be trying these crimes, or the RTC. But

**[05:32:02.390] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
But that's not what this is all about.

**[05:32:04.430] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Atty. Kapunan, with your indulgence, kindly take up the matter of the presentation of witnesses, because that is the subject at hand.

**[05:32:10.490] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
Correct. So, going back to why we are making this manifestation,

**[05:32:18.870] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
We have said, and I have said on behalf of the public prosecutors, Your Honors, that we will no longer be presenting Atty. Zuleika Lopez. And, Your Honors, in addition, because the testimony of Capt. Belinda Bello is merely corroborative—she would have been presented only to corroborate the fact that there was a transfer order made in the detention center—

**[05:32:45.640] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
merely corroborative. She would have been presented only to corroborate the fact that there was a transfer order made in the detention center and that that transfer order had been the subject of the video or press conference of November 23, 2024. And so, Your Honors, we are also No longer going to call us a witness, Captain Belinda Bello. With that, Your Honor, I think the reminder of Senator Lacson that the accused, that the respondent is entitled to a speedy trial. Prosecution, the prosecutors would want this to be a reminder. To all, we are doing our part. We have reduced trial dates by lessening our presentation on this article by two witnesses, Your Honor. And therefore, we would also request that the same be also a reminder to the defense counsels or the counsels for The defense. Your Honor, please. In my 48 years of practice as a private lawyer, and I'm grateful for this chance, I have learned two things in litigation. The first thing I have learned is, first,

**[05:34:35.400] Atty. Lorna Patajo-Kapunan**  
learn when to present and not to present a witness, and second, learn when to stop. And I think that should be our takeaway from this manifestation. We have decided from the evidence presented and from everything in consideration that we will not present these two witnesses. And on that note, I will also say we know when to stop. And this is where I stop. Thank you.

**[05:35:11.820] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator—rather, thank you, counsel.

**[05:35:17.290] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Mr. Presiding Officer, maliit lang kasi sa sinabi ni Ma'am Lorna—

**[05:35:23.150] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Just a

**[05:35:24.350] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
quick reply, Mr. Presiding Officer. First of

**[05:35:28.850] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
all, let me thank the prosecution for foregoing the two other witnesses that is supposed to be presented this week. I was actually talking to our Presiding Officer earlier on, and I was just computing the number of witnesses.

**[05:35:44.810] Sen. Sherwin T. Gatchalian**  
Based on our pretrial order, the prosecution will present 57 witnesses; the respondent will present 45 witnesses. That's a total of 102 witnesses. At the rate we are going, of two days per witness, we will finish in 17 months. That's a year and a half, or a year and five months to be exact. So any chance of shortening the proceedings will be highly appreciated. Thank you, Mr. Presiding Officer.

**[05:36:18.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Also, thanks to counsel for the private prosecutors. Therefore, tomorrow, what is calendared for our agenda is the disposition of the two requests for subpoena by the panel of prosecutors,

**[05:36:34.420] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
namely... motion for the issuance of a subpoena for bank records and amlc records and a motion for the issuance of subpoena um as well for the bir records that we returned via a sealed box given that there are no other witnesses to be presented tomorrow um because director matibag was scheduled based on an earlier decision of the court on monday july 20.

**[05:37:03.980] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
I hope we will have sufficient time to discuss these two subpoenas tomorrow in our trial. To remind, both parties shall be given 10 minutes to discuss the two motions, and this will be discussed jointly already, given that you filed your respective memoranda jointly as well, discussing the two issues. You will be given three minutes by way of rebuttal and three minutes by way of surrebuttal, should it be necessary. Thereafter, the senator judges will proceed to discuss the matter in caucus and thereafter in plenary. Yes, Senator Judge Alan Quetano.

**[05:37:46.340] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
May I just ask, to the Presiding Officer, is 10 minutes enough?

**[05:37:51.340] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Your Honor, we

**[05:37:52.200] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
will be

**[05:37:52.560] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
raising our request to make it at least 15 minutes per party.

**[05:37:56.980] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Sorry, I'll just use myself as an example. I want to draw the line between a fishing expedition and this is definite. And of course, if you can answer it in your presentation, better. I don't have to ask questions anymore. And I can tell you very honestly, I'm really interested in this issue. So may I ask my dear colleagues, since we don't have any other witness tomorrow, I think it will go faster if we give them more time and ourselves less time. Maybe 15 or 20 minutes each and then maybe,

**[05:38:33.500] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
Mr. President, Mr. Presiding Officer, you said three minutes rebut. I mean, can we give them more time to rebut each other? I'd rather they be rebutting each other than rebutting us. But I think this will really be an issue that will educate all of us and it'll really be good for the impeachment court and the Filipino people. So may I ask? The honorable defense,

**[05:38:55.990] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
sir, 15 minutes?

**[05:38:56.950] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Yes, your honor. 15 minutes per argument and 10 minutes per party on rebuttal, your honor.

**[05:39:01.670] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
So 15 and 10?

**[05:39:03.210] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Yes, your honor.

**[05:39:04.050] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
How about counsel-correspondent?

**[05:39:05.950] Atty. Mark C. Vinluan**  
We will just submit, your honor, to the discussion of this honorable court.

**[05:39:09.770] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
15 minutes for the oral arguments in chief and then 10 minutes by way of rebuttal and surrebuttal and a reminder to the senator judges each senator judge can speak for a maximum only of 10 minutes and for a total of one hour for each side meaning to say decide to grant the motion and decide not to grant the motion So kindly discuss also among yourselves to make use of the time with respect to taking up and tackling your position if you are for or against the motion so that the period of time will be maximized. Senator Judge Soto is recognized. Yes, sir.

**[05:39:53.450] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Did I hear you right, Mr. Presiding Officer, that you're going to allow us each 10 minutes?

**[05:40:01.190] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
But in no

**[05:40:02.130] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
case to exceed a maximum of

**[05:40:04.070] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
one hour.

**[05:40:05.070] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
For everybody, but I'm sure not everybody with a veil of 10 minutes, but if we do, that's 240 minutes. Again, to reiterate, Senator Judge Soto, a

**[05:40:18.570] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
total of one hour for each side, but a maximum of 10 minutes per Senator Judge each time they stand to speak. So it will be a maximum of two hours for this interlocutory. Issu of the motion for subpoena. Yes, Senator Judge Allen. With

**[05:40:41.040] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
the permission of former Senate President Soto, let me clarify. Two minutes to ask clarificatory question. You're referring to the 10 minutes, one hour, when there's a motion already. Yes. So that assumes, dear Senator, judges, that we don't have a consensus after the caucus, and then we're going to debate it. Yes, that's why it won't last that long. I mean, assuming we all have questions for two minutes, so it's 48 minutes. Then 10 minutes and one hour is if we have a debate whether or not to grant. If I may correct, Senator

**[05:41:19.070] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Judge Allen, the two minutes, if at all, applies to evidentiary issues and questions that we can throw to either party or the witness. But in this case, after a... An elongated oral presentation by both sides, both on in chief and on rebuttal. We should just listen and then go into caucus and decide if you can agree. If not,

**[05:41:43.130] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
then we go out and debate for a maximum of two hours, one hour on each side.

**[05:41:47.210] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Each side, but those are different subpoenas, different for the BIR and the AMLA.

**[05:41:54.230] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
To your point, Senators, former Senate President Soto, that That's times two pa.

**[05:41:58.820] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
No, no, no. Senator Judge Allen, as I said earlier, since the memoranda was submitted by the parties jointly on these twin motions, we will be deciding on it jointly as

**[05:42:09.900] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
well. But would it be possible that we all agree, let's say, on the AMLA but not agree on the BIR, or vice versa, or we both agree on both? Because there are different laws governing AMLA and BIR. Anyway, that's why we'll have a caucus.

**[05:42:26.240] Sen. Vicente C. Sotto III**  
Yes, may I suggest, Mr. Presiding Officer, and of course my esteemed colleague, may I suggest that we decide on how long each senator would be given after we caucus, instead of setting it now. Let's set the prosecution and the defense and the... And then we go into caucus and then we decide in caucus how long will we be giving each member if we should decide to still debate here instead of getting into a consensus in the caucus.

**[05:43:05.780] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Senator Judge Soto, I completely agree. However, the Presiding Officer was merely citing what's written in our rules right now. We can of course change it by agreeing amongst ourselves to lower it. Or increase it. Hopefully not in the direction of increasing

**[05:43:19.020] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
it. Hopefully after the caucus, we will have a win-cheese solution.

**[05:43:24.240] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Thank you, Senator Judge Allan. Any other points? Senator Judge Pangilinan is recognized.

**[05:43:31.540] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
Very quickly, Mr. President, this pertains to an earlier manifestation. I beg the indulgence of our colleagues because it took me some time to retrieve the file. This is reference to my earlier interpolation with the witness on the matter of the case of people versus mass. Earlier it was manifested that this was an inciting to sedition case which was dismissed by the regional trial court. Just for the record, it was dismissed by

**[05:44:10.150] Sen. Alan Peter Cayetano**  
the Regional Trial Court, not on the merits.

**[05:44:13.230] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
It was dismissed by the Olongapo Court because on June 24 by Judge Richard Paradessa of the Olongapo Regional Trial Court because it was an unlawful arrest. In other words, Mr. Mas was arrested unlawfully and therefore the Regional Trial Court Atty. Giorgio

**[05:44:38.330] Sen. Francis “Kiko” Pangilinan**  
And so, the motion to quash was dismissed—was granted, rather—and the case was dismissed. In other words, it was not dismissed on the merits. For the record, Mr. President.

**[05:44:54.170] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Yes, Honorable Defensor.

**[05:44:56.350] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Just to remind you that tomorrow, kindly give us a list of your witnesses for the following week, for the information of the Court as well as the other party.

**[05:45:05.950] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
We will, if necessary, Your Honors.

**[05:45:07.790] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
And will you be needing a subpoena for Director Matibag for Monday?

**[05:45:14.690] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
won't need a subpoena anymore for Director Matibag for Monday's testimony, Your Honor.

**[05:45:19.070] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
Okay, then no need to issue a subpoena. Any other points the counsel for respondent would like to raise?

**[05:45:24.930] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
Your Honor, just to, before

**[05:45:26.490] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
we end, can we request the clerk of

**[05:45:29.430] Rep. Lorenz R. Defensor**  
court to reseal the evidence

**[05:45:31.870] Sen. Francis "Chiz" G. Escudero**  
especially? Yes, after we adjourn, may I request the council, assisting councils for the parties to kindly